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Checkers21
06-18-2018, 12:51 AM
What the hellís with this nonsense? Thereís an advertisement that APC has allowed, showing a pic of some female FO sitting left seat.. whatís the deal? Could the 99s not find one of there members who was Captain qualified that looked good in a photo?


badflaps
06-18-2018, 01:45 AM
What the hellís with this nonsense? Thereís an advertisement that APC has allowed, showing a pic of some female FO sitting left seat.. whatís the deal? Could the 99s not find one of there members who was Captain qualified that looked good in a photo?
She is just setting the parking brake, now that she has her double mocha anisette cherry latte, she can scurry back to her side to cop a few 'Z's'.

Checkers21
06-18-2018, 02:24 AM
She is just setting the parking brake, now that she has her double mocha anisette cherry latte, she can scurry back to her side to cop a few 'Z's'.

That sounds about right...lol


Checkers21
06-18-2018, 02:30 AM
Also, how many organizations/clubs/support networks do women/minorities, etc need? This is just getting ridiculous. If theyíre so good and qualified, why do they need to constantly throw this stuff in everyoneís face?

OOfff
06-18-2018, 02:39 AM
Also, how many organizations/clubs/support networks do women/minorities, etc need? This is just getting ridiculous. If theyíre so good and qualified, why do they need to constantly throw this stuff in everyoneís face?

However many organizations/clubs/networks it takes to stop the minimizing and ridicule on the basis of their gender as seen in your question ďif theyíre so goodĒ and post 2.

Learflyer
06-18-2018, 04:33 AM
Also, how many organizations/clubs/support networks do women/minorities, etc need? This is just getting ridiculous. If theyíre so good and qualified, why do they need to constantly throw this stuff in everyoneís face?

Exactly. Alot of us are tired of the 'girl power' conversation! Just assimilate with the rest of us.

Checkers21
06-18-2018, 04:39 AM
However many organizations/clubs/networks it takes to stop the minimizing and ridicule on the basis of their gender as seen in your question ďif theyíre so goodĒ and post 2.

I think theyíre making it worse on themselves.. Theyíre drawing way too much attention. I saw a video yesterday of an Alaska Airlines, all female, all black flight crew. They made it seem like some big deal. How is stuff like this news? The Captain wouldnít stop making a PA about what a big deal it was. Poor passengers just want to get out on time and here she and her FO are holding up the show blabbing about what a historic event is about to take place.

Checkers21
06-18-2018, 04:47 AM
Like what do these women (man haters) want? Do they expect a free lunch for doing their job? Congratulations, you didnít crash the jet hereís your free voucher to Taco Bell. Extra congrats for doing it with a non caucasian, hereís a medal and a lifetime supply of tacos. Iím so fed up with all this PC horse****.. I say the hell with all these organizations. The hell with OBAP, the 99ís, WIA, NAACP, and the rest of them.

captjns
06-18-2018, 05:43 AM
Geeez.... this thread reads like a bunch of dandy guys afraid or threatened by their feminine sides:rolleyes:

OOfff
06-18-2018, 05:45 AM
I think theyíre making it worse on themselves.. Theyíre drawing way too much attention. I saw a video yesterday of an Alaska Airlines, all female, all black flight crew. They made it seem like some big deal. How is stuff like this news? The Captain wouldnít stop making a PA about what a big deal it was. Poor passengers just want to get out on time and here she and her FO are holding up the show blabbing about what a historic event is about to take place.

It is a big deal because it took until 2018 for an all black female crew to happen. Thatís a pretty cool milestone, and it should be celebrated

BoilerUP
06-18-2018, 05:46 AM
Have a Snickers.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 05:47 AM
Like what do these women (man haters) want?

Oh there it is: if people support others in their jobs, they must be hating you. Get over yourself

BrewCity
06-18-2018, 05:52 AM
It is a big deal because it took until 2018 for an all black female crew to happen. Thatís a pretty cool milestone, and it should be celebrated

ASA pulled that off seven or eight years ago.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 05:55 AM
ASA pulled that off seven or eight years ago.

Very cool. It happened last year at DL, and now it happened at Alaska.

Checkers21
06-18-2018, 06:22 AM
It is a big deal because it took until 2018 for an all black female crew to happen. Thatís a pretty cool milestone, and it should be celebrated

Come on, people!! Who cares about this stuff? What a joke!!

Spudhauler
06-18-2018, 07:32 AM
Come on, people!! Who cares about this stuff? What a joke!!

You started an entire thread about it, so you seem to be the one who needs a safe space.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 07:37 AM
Come on, people!! Who cares about this stuff? What a joke!!

Why does it bother you that people derive enjoyment and inspiration from seeing people like them do things for the first time?

John Carr
06-18-2018, 09:18 AM
ASA pulled that off seven or eight years ago.

Very cool. It happened last year at DL, and now it happened at Alaska.

Guess if DAL didnt do it, it DIDNT HAPPEN...

GL pulled it off in the late 90ís.

nkbux
06-18-2018, 09:23 AM
Guess if DAL didnt do it, it DIDNT HAPPEN...

GL pulled it off in the late 90ís.


Delta did it within the last two years on an A320... the FO was the former ASA captain. I think itís awesome

John Carr
06-18-2018, 09:37 AM
Delta did it within the last two years on an A320... the FO was the former ASA captain. I think itís awesome

Never said/stated/implied it wasnít.

Merely pointing out that DALís, ASís, nor ASAís was the first time it happened....

OOfff
06-18-2018, 10:27 AM
Guess if DAL didnt do it, it DIDNT HAPPEN...

GL pulled it off in the late 90ís.

Again, very cool. IIRC, FedEx had it happen in 2016. All very cool events.

badflaps
06-18-2018, 11:22 AM
Next event- Transsexuals.......

John Carr
06-18-2018, 12:01 PM
Again, very cool. IIRC, FedEx had it happen in 2016. All very cool events.

And IIRC, the CA at FedEx (who's a FX LCA) was ALSO the CA at GL when it happened.

I could be wrong, but I believe the CA is the same person.

If only social media as well as airlines being such great PR machines existed back then.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 12:20 PM
Next event- Transsexuals.......

Why does that bother you?

CBreezy
06-18-2018, 12:25 PM
Why does that bother you?

Didnt you hear? All the gays and transgenders are going to come and molest all the children. All of them.

Galaxy5
06-18-2018, 12:45 PM
Recently flew a trip with all hot, young FAs...now thatís monumental! When was the last time that happened, maybe 1960s?

badflaps
06-18-2018, 01:43 PM
Why does that bother you?

Not at all, in fact I am joining the Army for the surgery.

badflaps
06-18-2018, 01:48 PM
After which I will be a real GI........ Gender Imaginary.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 02:37 PM
After which I will be a real GI........ Gender Imaginary.

Why does someoneís gender bother you?

badflaps
06-18-2018, 02:44 PM
Why does someoneís gender bother you?

Because their clothes are too small and I don't like going to a big girl's store.

Qotsaautopilot
06-18-2018, 03:35 PM
Why does it bother you that people derive enjoyment and inspiration from seeing people like them do things for the first time?

Is it special when itís being done by thousands of peers on a daily basis and has been for decades. If we donít want race to be an issue letís stop making it an issue on both sides.

Ever head the term strong black woman or strong black man? Itís usually used as a self description. Why not strong woman or strong man.

I read a headline in the paper today that women are underrepresented in country music. Now Iím not a country fan but Iíd say since probably Dolly Parton women have been on even footing with men in country music. If they are somehow ďunderrepresentedĒ or there are less of them itís because less enter the profession than men. It simple numbers.

The population is say 50/50 men/women. You just arenít going to have that same proportion in the workforce because a higher ratio of women choose to stay home and raise families than men. Now if those that do choose to work they should absolutely be compensated on an equal level as men if the quality of work is the same. In our profession this is and has been true for decades. So why are we making it an issue?

WhiskeyDog
06-18-2018, 04:03 PM
Why does someoneís gender bother you?

Why does someone's gender matter? Equality for all, correct? If we're all equal, then no one needs to separate themselves by identifying as a gender, race, sexuality etc. Yet the ("minorities")do, because they do it in the name of preference, not equality. Lots of irony, but I realize it's not a logic dog fight.

deadseal
06-18-2018, 04:09 PM
Old white man alert!!! Get off my lawn you dang millenials

GogglesPisano
06-18-2018, 04:17 PM
White males are underrepresented in the teaching, nursing and hairdresser professions.

Something has to be done about this!

freezingflyboy
06-18-2018, 05:03 PM
Also, how many organizations/clubs/support networks do women/minorities, etc need? This is just getting ridiculous. If they’re so good and qualified, why do they need to constantly throw this stuff in everyone’s face?

Well as long as I continue to fly with old white men who describe their previous FOs as "A black guy, but a decent pilot, ya know?" (true story :rolleyes: ) then I think these organizations still serve a purpose.

Ya know Checkers21, if you are so bothered by these minorities "throwing it in your face" you are free to start the Troll Airline (Maybe?) Pilot Organization for Normals. There's probably even a neato acronym in there somewhere...

Also, who the EFF cares what was in a banner ad you saw? Wait, are you suggesting that not all advertising is truthful or 100% honest!? Well golly jeepers, stop the presses! :eek:

Qotsaautopilot
06-18-2018, 05:11 PM
Well as long as I continue to fly with old white men who describe their previous FOs as "A black guy, but a decent pilot, ya know?" (true story :rolleyes: ) then I think these organizations still serve a purpose.

Ya know Checkers21, if you are so bothered by these minorities "throwing it in your face" you are free to start the Troll Airline (Maybe?) Pilot Organization for Normals. There's probably even a neato acronym in there somewhere...

Also, who the EFF cares what was in a banner ad you saw? Wait, are you suggesting that not all advertising is truthful or 100% honest!? Well golly jeepers, stop the presses! :eek:

Old white captains donít do the hiring

freezingflyboy
06-18-2018, 05:16 PM
Old white captains donít do the hiring

That's laughable. There were at least 4 people involved in my interview and hiring process that would fit the description of "old", "white" and "captain".

Qotsaautopilot
06-18-2018, 05:46 PM
Not these days. Usually HR and a woman

WHACKMASTER
06-18-2018, 06:40 PM
Ah, the liberal, minority, victim, PC mentality shining through on this thread. Disgusting and ruining this country (although I contend that it already has).

OOfff
06-18-2018, 06:50 PM
Why does someone's gender matter? Equality for all, correct? If we're all equal, then no one needs to separate themselves by identifying as a gender, race, sexuality etc. Yet the ("minorities")do, because they do it in the name of preference, not equality. Lots of irony, but I realize it's not a logic dog fight.
It matters because not all genders are treated equally by those in the majority. Equality for all, indeed

WHACKMASTER
06-18-2018, 06:52 PM
It matters because not all genders are treated equally by those in the majority. Equality for all, indeed

Complete bull$7!t

OOfff
06-18-2018, 07:01 PM
Is it special when itís being done by thousands of peers on a daily basis and has been for decades. If we donít want race to be an issue letís stop making it an issue on both sides.



Yes, itís special because people of nonmajority groups donít see themselves in those positions. These events are important because they allow those groups the same opportunity you had to identify with pilots who look like you.


Ever head the term strong black woman or strong black man? Itís usually used as a self description. Why not strong woman or strong man. because society doesnít treat black women and men the same way it treats white men.


I read a headline in the paper today that women are underrepresented in country music. Now Iím not a country fan but Iíd say since probably Dolly Parton women have been on even footing with men in country music. If they are somehow ďunderrepresentedĒ or there are less of them itís because less enter the profession than men. It simple numbers.

The population is say 50/50 men/women. You just arenít going to have that same proportion in the workforce because a higher ratio of women choose to stay home and raise families than men. Now if those that do choose to work they should absolutely be compensated on an equal level as men if the quality of work is the same. In our profession this is and has been true for decades. So why are we making it an issue?
None of that has anything to do with people being able to see themselves in the cockpit crews. Nobody said anything about equal pay.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 07:02 PM
Complete bull$7!t

It really, objectively is not bull****, but Iím probably not going to change your mind here.

OOfff
06-18-2018, 07:04 PM
Ah, the liberal, minority, victim, PC mentality shining through on this thread. Disgusting and ruining this country (although I contend that it already has).

Ah, the oppressed victim of someone celebrating a first black female flight crew.

Spudhauler
06-18-2018, 07:50 PM
Ah, the liberal, minority, victim, PC mentality shining through on this thread. Disgusting and ruining this country (although I contend that it already has).

You're too funny. Complain about victim mentality when your position complains about Gary Kelly and SWAPA. Classic.

symbian simian
06-18-2018, 08:18 PM
What the hellís with this nonsense? Thereís an advertisement that APC has allowed, showing a pic of some female FO sitting left seat.. whatís the deal? Could the 99s not find one of there members who was Captain qualified that looked good in a photo?

Transavia used to have the pilot flying sit in the left seat on the B737

Qotsaautopilot
06-19-2018, 05:36 AM
Yes, itís special because people of nonmajority groups donít see themselves in those positions. These events are important because they allow those groups the same opportunity you had to identify with pilots who look like you.

because society doesnít treat black women and men the same way it treats white men.


None of that has anything to do with people being able to see themselves in the cockpit crews. Nobody said anything about equal pay.

Nonmajority groups donít see themselves in those positions? Why not? I donít know but choosing a career field because people look the same as you sounds pretty racist or gender biased. So basically if a person doesnít see advertising featuring a career with a person of the same gender or skin color they assume they arenít capabale of doing said career. Thatís what youíre saying? If thatís the case then white men arenít going to become very many things moving forward because all the advertising of most careers now features either women or a non-white person. It doesnít hurt my feelings itís just interesting that companies are so scared of being accused of being biased that they wonít dare feature a white male in corporate advertising and will even hire under qualified women or minorities just to prove they arenít biased even if those candidates arenít the best. Not to say that all women or minorities are under qualified because that is obviously false.

As to the equal pay topic. Itís a big part of the metoo movement and thatís why I brought it up.

Salukipilot4590
06-19-2018, 06:40 AM
Should I start making a list?

C130driver
06-19-2018, 07:00 AM
However many organizations/clubs/networks it takes to stop the minimizing and ridicule on the basis of their gender as seen in your question ďif theyíre so goodĒ and post 2.

Lighten up Francis, it was a joke. If one canít take a few jokes they donít need to a pilot.

Leslie Chow
06-19-2018, 07:10 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N0p_pQ7PTYU

TimetoClimb
06-19-2018, 07:30 AM
Is it special when itís being done by thousands of peers on a daily basis and has been for decades. If we donít want race to be an issue letís stop making it an issue on both sides.

Ever head the term strong black woman or strong black man? Itís usually used as a self description. Why not strong woman or strong man.

I read a headline in the paper today that women are underrepresented in country music. Now Iím not a country fan but Iíd say since probably Dolly Parton women have been on even footing with men in country music. If they are somehow ďunderrepresentedĒ or there are less of them itís because less enter the profession than men. It simple numbers.

The population is say 50/50 men/women. You just arenít going to have that same proportion in the workforce because a higher ratio of women choose to stay home and raise families than men. Now if those that do choose to work they should absolutely be compensated on an equal level as men if the quality of work is the same. In our profession this is and has been true for decades. So why are we making it an issue?

Because radical feminism insists on not just equal opportunity, but equal outcome. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole

TimetoClimb
06-19-2018, 07:33 AM
Recently flew a trip with all hot, young FAs...now thatís monumental! When was the last time that happened, maybe 1960s?

Linguistic kill shot right here. Well played sir.

captjns
06-19-2018, 07:42 AM
Recently flew a trip with all hot, young FAs...now thatís monumental! When was the last time that happened, maybe 1960s?

Good for you. Now remember Beaver... no baseball caps, ear buds, or knapsacks in terminal while on duty.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 07:51 AM
Nonmajority groups donít see themselves in those positions? Why not?
Because there arenít people in those positions. You canít see what doesnít exist.

I donít know but choosing a career field because people look the same as you sounds pretty racist or gender biased.

Itís not about choosing it because people look like you, but that when you donít identify with people in those positions, itís hard to see the vision of that being a viable option for you. Talk to any of your visible minority coworkers about the nod of approval from people of their same race.

So basically if a person doesnít see advertising featuring a career with a person of the same gender or skin color they assume they arenít capabale of doing said career. Thatís what youíre saying?

Nothing is absolute, but a lack of people to identify with definitely builds a sense of exclusion or that the job ďisnít for my type of people.Ē I donít expect you to understand it because you saw yourself reflected in this position from day 1.

If thatís the case then white men arenít going to become very many things moving forward because all the advertising of most careers now features either women or a non-white person.
Yeah, woe is the white male who canít find a single white male in a position they want.


It doesnít hurt my feelings itís just interesting that companies are so scared of being accused of being biased that they wonít dare feature a white male in corporate advertising and will even hire under qualified women or minorities just to prove they arenít biased even if those candidates arenít the best.white males are all over advertising. What are you talking about?


Not to say that all women or minorities are under qualified because that is obviously false.evidence of ďunder-qualifiedĒ women and minorities being hired by any airline?


As to the equal pay topic. Itís a big part of the metoo movement and thatís why I brought it up.

Totally irrelevant red herring in aviation.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 07:53 AM
Lighten up Francis, it was a joke. If one canít take a few jokes they donít need to a pilot.

And that joke is only a joke when pointed at women. You wouldnít have said the same about a similarly aged male, because it would not be ďfunnyĒ to you.

WHACKMASTER
06-19-2018, 08:12 AM
You're too funny. Complain about victim mentality when your position complains about Gary Kelly and SWAPA. Classic.

Yeah, because a forced downgrade and subsequent pay cut has so much to do with this topic and is/was obviously nothing that warranted complaining about :rolleyes:

CBreezy
06-19-2018, 08:19 AM
Nonmajority groups donít see themselves in those positions? Why not? I donít know but choosing a career field because people look the same as you sounds pretty racist or gender biased. So basically if a person doesnít see advertising featuring a career with a person of the same gender or skin color they assume they arenít capabale of doing said career. Thatís what youíre saying? If thatís the case then white men arenít going to become very many things moving forward because all the advertising of most careers now features either women or a non-white person. It doesnít hurt my feelings itís just interesting that companies are so scared of being accused of being biased that they wonít dare feature a white male in corporate advertising and will even hire under qualified women or minorities just to prove they arenít biased even if those candidates arenít the best. Not to say that all women or minorities are under qualified because that is obviously false.

As to the equal pay topic. Itís a big part of the metoo movement and thatís why I brought it up.

It's the fact that women and minorities for so long were either prohibited or discouraged from participating. Women were told that being a pilot is a man's job. Heck, there weren't even allowed at the AFA until relatively recently. That social momentum is really hard to break.

C130driver
06-19-2018, 08:28 AM
It's the fact that women and minorities for so long were either prohibited or discouraged from participating. Women were told that being a pilot is a man's job. Heck, there weren't even allowed at the AFA until relatively recently. That social momentum is really hard to break.

So when does it end? Donít get me wrong, Iím 100% for equality. However, I think there are some here who legitimately believe in equal opportunity while others want equal outcome, and then some. The same people that canít **** about race / sex / gender orientation / etc. Personally, I think itís insulting to parade around <insert minority here> as a PA stunt (letís be honest thatís all it is.) Look at the Starbucks debacle.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 08:29 AM
It's the fact that women and minorities for so long were either prohibited or discouraged from participating. Women were told that being a pilot is a man's job. Heck, there weren't even allowed at the AFA until relatively recently. That social momentum is really hard to break.

To add to this, there is STILL a back room joking culture that women donít belong in aviation. That might seem like just jokes, but it reflects a real, if subtle/hidden, social pressure.

Galaxy5
06-19-2018, 08:29 AM
Heck, there weren't even allowed at the AFA until relatively recently. That social momentum is really hard to break.

Theyíve been at USAFA exactly 2/3 of the time itís existed as of this year. Nothing relative about that.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 08:30 AM
So when does it end? Donít get me wrong, Iím 100% for equality. However, I think there are some here who legitimately believe in equal opportunity while others want equal outcome, and then some. The same people that canít **** about race / sex / gender orientation / etc. Personally, I think itís insulting to parade around <insert minority here> as a PA stunt (letís be honest thatís all it is.) Look at the Starbucks debacle.insulting to whom?

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 09:03 AM
Old white man alert!!! Get off my lawn you dang millenials

Right on cue. So predictable. Perfectly acceptable to stereotype and ridicule so long as the targets involve selected groups. Hypocrisy at its finest.

CBreezy
06-19-2018, 09:13 AM
Theyíve been at USAFA exactly 2/3 of the time itís existed as of this year. Nothing relative about that.

Yes. All 10 out of 1200 of them in the first year, right? Just because they let 10 in because they were forced to doesn't mean the culture is now fixed. Here we are, 38 years later and we still have a small female pilot population and women military officers still are less than 15%.

Ever fly with an Academy grad who graduated before 1980? I have. First thing out of their mouth is "I was there before women were allowed to ruin it.". And for those doing the math, college graduates from 1975-76 are still kicking around and running the airlines.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 09:15 AM
It matters because not all genders are treated equally by those in the majority. Equality for all, indeed

Correct statement. Not all genders are treated equally. Equality for all,...indeed.

Quote: "An EEOC spokesman said that if 10 percent of pilot applicants in a given year were women, United had agreed that 20 percent of the applicants hired would be women."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-09-13/business/8801300011_1_entry-level-pilots-pilot-applicants-minorities

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 09:26 AM
Because radical feminism insists on not just equal opportunity, but equal outcome. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole

...better yet, if equal footing fails, eliminate the male contenders altogether. Problem solved!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.burlingtonfreepress.com/amp/472613002

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 09:33 AM
Theyíve been at USAFA exactly 2/3 of the time itís existed as of this year. Nothing relative about that.

Don't let the facts spoil a good story!!

CBreezy
06-19-2018, 09:34 AM
Don't let the facts spoil a good story!!

I didn't. Those facts are irrelevant.

kevbo
06-19-2018, 09:37 AM
We may live to see the day when a young white male in a good job is called token by everyone else.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 09:42 AM
Correct statement. Not all genders are treated equally. Equality for all,...indeed.

Quote: "An EEOC spokesman said that if 10 percent of pilot applicants in a given year were women, United had agreed that 20 percent of the applicants hired would be women."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-09-13/business/8801300011_1_entry-level-pilots-pilot-applicants-minorities

Woe is the white man, so thoroughly denied his rightful place in major airline cockpits

Galaxy5
06-19-2018, 09:44 AM
Yes. All 10 out of 1200 of them in the first year, right? Just because they let 10 in because they were forced to doesn't mean the culture is now fixed. Here we are, 38 years later and we still have a small female pilot population and women military officers still are less than 15%.

That wasnít the claim, the timeline was. Youíre shifting your aim point.

Having weak facts detracts from the rest of your argument. Its 42 years.

Iím also curious about your opinion the culture shift both for the better and the worse in the AF during your time in.

Ever fly with an Academy grad who graduated before 1980? I have.

Congratulations, you must be quite the pilot to be allowed in the cockpit with USAFA grads. PM me your story so I can aspire to that.

First thing out of their mouth is "I was there before women were allowed to ruin it."

Lots of people ďruinedĒ the place.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 09:46 AM
Yes. All 10 out of 1200 of them in the first year, right? Just because they let 10 in because they were forced to doesn't mean the culture is now fixed. Here we are, 38 years later and we still have a small female pilot population and women military officers still are less than 15%.


And the current Commandant is a female (married to another female). Boy the old guard must still be calling the shots huh? Yeah, nothing's changed.

Are you saying the percentage of female officers in the Air Force has something to do with somehow being barred? If so, I would argue the military, like the airlines, goes to great lengths to advertise, promote and aggressively recruit females and minorities. Seen any commercials or advertisements lately? To place blame on anyone other than those you claim discrimination against is simply not dealing with facts. By your statement, you are alleging that women our allotted less positions because of their gender when the exact opposite is true. There are no quotas for non-minority males. At this point, it's safe to deduce that women that are not in the military are civilians by choice. As to emales in civilian cockpits, same applies. Every commercial we see has a female or minority portrayed and by the way, no one is barring females from Airline interviews either. They have the same financial, if not better, avenues than their male counterparts and they also have preferential hiring.

Yes, this was a valid argument 30 to 40 years ago. Today it's worn out and tired.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 10:24 AM
Woe is the white man, so thoroughly denied his rightful place in major airline cockpits

Just because it's aimed at the (safe target) white male didn't excuse the practice of discrimination. I will cite the definition for you:

"The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex."

Seems clear enough. Instead of snarky come-backs, perhaps you could provide a logical answer as to why you disagree with the Supreme Court and feel it's ok to openly discriminate on the grounds of race, age or sex(?) Not that it would make it legal, but are you implying women somehow have less access to education, financial aid or hiring then the males? If so, I would point you to recent university enrollment statistics for the United States.

"For 35 years, women have outnumbered men in American colleges. Federal data show that female students became the majority in 1979 and for the past decade have accounted for about 57 percent of enrollment at degree-granting institutions. Mar 26, 2014"

https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+women+at+universities&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

You complain about discriminative practices of the past (actual) but support those of the present. You can't have it both ways.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 10:28 AM
It's discrimination. Plain and simple. I will cite the definition for you: "The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex."

Instead of snarky come-backs, perhaps you could provide a logical answer as to why you disagree with the Supreme Court and feel it's ok to openly discriminate on the grounds of race, age or sex. Do women have less access to education, financial aid or hiring then males? You complain about discriminative practices of the past (actual) but support those of the present. You can't have it both ways.
Here we are, THIRTY YEARS since the trib penned that article. What relevance does that have to today? UAL isnít hiring excessive numbers of female and minority applicants.

This thread is about advertisement and support networks, not some attempt to twist affirmative action into a place it isnt. As for your edit about higher education, what the hell does that have to do with the 99s or OBAP or a banner ad?

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 10:44 AM
Here we are, THIRTY YEARS since the trib penned that article. What relevance does that have to today? UAL isnít hiring excessive numbers of female and minority applicants.

Because the EEOC mandate didn't come with an expiration date. It still stands and is quite costly.

"The EEOC is asking for job offers, back pay and retroactive seniority for those not hired, said the spokesman. In addition, it wants sanctions to force the airline to comply with the decree in the future"

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-09-13/business/8801300011_1_entry-level-pilots-pilot-applicants-minorities

OOfff
06-19-2018, 10:57 AM
Because the EEOC mandate didn't come with an expiration date. It still stands and is quite costly.

"The EEOC is asking for job offers, back pay and retroactive seniority for those not hired, said the spokesman. In addition, it wants sanctions to force the airline to comply with the decree in the future"

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1988-09-13/business/8801300011_1_entry-level-pilots-pilot-applicants-minoritiesexplain to me exactly how advertising featuring women and minorities or outreach/support networks plays into this EEOC decision?

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 11:00 AM
This thread is about advertisement and support networks, not some attempt to twist affirmative action into a place it isnt. As for your edit about higher education, what the hell does that have to do with the 99s or OBAP or a banner ad?

Was this not your post?

"It matters because not all genders are treated equally by those in the majority. Equality for all, indeed"

As to the rest, I see you're still dodging the question. BTW, do you realize how many times you've mentioned 'white males' in this thread. I lost count.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 11:09 AM
Was this not your post?

"It matters because not all genders are treated equally by those in the majority. Equality for all, indeed"


That was my post. It has nothing to do with higher education statistics.



As to the rest, I see you're still dodging the question. BTW, do you realize how many times you've mentioned 'white males' in this thread. I lost count. four. Hope this helps you with your counting.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 11:10 AM
explain to me exactly how advertising featuring women and minorities or outreach/support networks plays into this EEOC decision?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YXIr9LNclPQ

Do you seal any 'white males' in this United recruiting video? Notice it is not titled female or a minority recruiting. Do you not see the connection? United is aggressively recruiting females and minorities to avoid the costly sanctions and financial penalties of the past. Even though United was able to prove it was unable to source the number of applicants to meet the EEOC complaint, it was still held liable.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 11:13 AM
four. Hope this helps you with your counting.

Oooh. Didn't mean to strike a nerve asking a simple question. Still waiting.

OOfff
06-19-2018, 11:15 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YXIr9LNclPQ

Do you seal any 'white males' in this United recruiting video? Notice it is not titled female or a minority recruiting. Do you not see the connection? United is aggressively recruiting females and minorities to avoid the costly sanctions and financial penalties of the past. Even though United was able to prove it was unable to source the number of applicants to meet the EEOC complaint, it was still held liable.
And yet, theyíre still hiring tons of white males (5). Perhaps they are aggressively recruiting people who otherwise arenít showing up in their application pile. Seems like seeing people you can identify with in the position might make it an attractive career option previously not considered.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 11:20 AM
That was my post. It has nothing to do with higher education statistics.

Again, was this your post?

"This thread is about advertisement and support networks, not some attempt to twist affirmative action into a place it isn't"

And this?

"It matters because not all genders are treated equally by those in the majority. Equality for all, indeed"

You were the one that initiated the 'equality for all' discussion right? Is that not related to affirmative action and equal opportunity?

TimetoClimb
06-19-2018, 11:20 AM
Just because it's aimed at the (safe target) white male didn't excuse the practice of discrimination. I will cite the definition for you:

"The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex."

Seems clear enough. Instead of snarky come-backs, perhaps you could provide a logical answer as to why you disagree with the Supreme Court and feel it's ok to openly discriminate on the grounds of race, age or sex(?) Not that it would make it legal, but are you implying women somehow have less access to education, financial aid or hiring then the males? If so, I would point you to recent university enrollment statistics for the United States.

"For 35 years, women have outnumbered men in American colleges. Federal data show that female students became the majority in 1979 and for the past decade have accounted for about 57 percent of enrollment at degree-granting institutions. Mar 26, 2014"

https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+women+at+universities&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

You complain about discriminative practices of the past (actual) but support those of the present. You can't have it both ways.

Thank you !!

A lot of women don't want to be airline pilots and the ones that do can go straight to the top in this day and age.

Very few women sign up for the blue collar work that keeps our society afloat, yet you dont see op-ed articles hemming and hawing about the lack of female representation in the dirty jobs sector!?

Work related fatalities is no statistic to joke about (97 percent male by the way). It's not a glass ceiling stopping them from joining the ranks it's an innate aversion to physically demanding or risky labor (121 may be a safe bet but the same cannot be said about the stepping stone positions). This part about the legacy of male dominated fields is conveniently ignored while figure-heads clamor on about the dwindling number of female CEOs of fortune 500 compainies. What a sick perversion of reality that dishonors the uniquely male sacrifice that made our modern world possible.

These aspects demonstrate the true motivation of feminist policy.

Learflyer
06-19-2018, 11:50 AM
Here we are, THIRTY YEARS since the trib penned that article. What relevance does that have to today? UAL isnít hiring excessive numbers of female and minority applicants.

This thread is about advertisement and support networks, not some attempt to twist affirmative action into a place it isnt. As for your edit about higher education, what the hell does that have to do with the 99s or OBAP or a banner ad?

Are a male minority, a female, or just a plain ole confused lefty?

BoilerUP
06-19-2018, 12:12 PM
https://akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2015822/rs_1024x759-150922105958-1024-snickers-wrappers.jm.092215.jpg?fit=inside|900:auto&output-quality=90

TimetoClimb
06-19-2018, 12:46 PM
https://akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2015822/rs_1024x759-150922105958-1024-snickers-wrappers.jm.092215.jpg?fit=inside|900:auto&output-quality=90

Appeal to emotion fallacy

deadseal
06-19-2018, 12:59 PM
As Louis ck says (oh the irony based on his current rep) being considered an ********* is not up to you. Until every black, female, Indian, Asian, space alien, transgender, and m88b that was once alive during the time of rampant sexism and racism perpetuated by white men is dead, then these lovely reminders are certainly warranted and I welcome them. If you donít like it snowflake, then donít pay attention. (Iím white and male and my family wealth is directly tied to white privilege)

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 01:25 PM
And yet, they’re still hiring tons of white males (5). Perhaps they are aggressively recruiting people who otherwise aren’t showing up in their application pile. Seems like seeing people you can identify with in the position might make it an attractive career option previously not considered.
Tragically, yes, 'tons of white guys', are hired every day at the expense of so many qualified females and minorities who are institutionally discriminated against. Clearly this is the case.

These privileged 'white guys' have access to so many more avenues than those who don't have the fortune of sharing their race/gender (69's, OWAP, MIA, etc.). Clearly missing in Major/Legacy recruiting ads are these victims of discrimination who, as you say, "...don’t see themselves in those positions."

Looking through the united video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXIr9LNclPQ) I didn't see a single female or minority. I don't see any in these company approved/sponsored pilot application sites either...

https://swa.pilotcredentials.com
https://fedex.pilotcredentials.com
https://aa.pilotcredentials.com

Apologies for the sarcasm (had to lighten things up), but I don't see the point being made that there's any reason TODAY, other than personal choice, excuses, health, or finances (none of which are gender/race related), for PEOPLE to find themselves outside of a flight deck. Women and minorities have better access to the financial aid organizations mentioned and recruitment opportunities than white males. They have the same--if not better, access to military fight training via Service Academies, ROTC, or barring that, the GI Bill for ratings.

The fact that white males, for whatever reason, continue to show more interest in pursuing the pilot profession is why they're hired in larger numbers by the airlines. Plain and simple. Same goes with many other blue collar professions women don't elect to pursue (construction, mechanics, plumbing, electrician, etc). It's a free country.

Whatever bias the uninformed wish to inject, HR departments, not 'white male' pilots, do the recruiting, interviewing and hiring these days and they bend over backwards to bolster their ranks with under-represented categories. At my current airline, there were 4 pilots involved in my interview, 2 males, 2 females, 1 of which was a minority. All panels had an HR rep present. No good ol' boy club here. Similar experience at United, except every slide and pamphlet had nothing but females and minorities.

I worked my way up through the regionals and for years witnessed first hand the countless number of female/minority FOs hired to the majors/legacies ahead of more experienced and qualified white male captains who couldn't even get an interview.

I agree with you that the airlines' target numbers aren't showing up, we just disagree as to why. It's not the days of old; no one is being institutionally barred from flying. I welcome evidence to the contrary.

Learflyer
06-19-2018, 03:47 PM
Tragically, yes, 'tons of white guys', are hired every day at the expense of so many qualified females and minorities who are institutionally discriminated against. Clearly this is the case.

These privileged 'white guys' have access to so many more avenues than those who don't have the fortune of sharing their race/gender (69's, OWAP, MIA, etc.). Clearly missing in Major/Legacy recruiting ads are these victims of discrimination who, as you say, "...donít see themselves in those positions."

Looking through the united video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXIr9LNclPQ) I didn't see a single female or minority. I don't see any in these company approved/sponsored pilot application sites either...

https://swa.pilotcredentials.com
https://fedex.pilotcredentials.com
https://aa.pilotcredentials.com

Apologies for the sarcasm (had to lighten things up), but I don't see the point being made that there's any reason TODAY, other than personal choice, excuses, health, or finances (none of which are gender/race related), for PEOPLE to find themselves outside of a flight deck. Women and minorities have better access to the financial aid organizations mentioned and recruitment opportunities than white males. They have the same--if not better, access to military fight training via Service Academies, ROTC, or barring that, the GI Bill for ratings.

The fact that white males, for whatever reason, continue to show more interest in pursuing the pilot profession is why they're hired in larger numbers by the airlines. Plain and simple. Same goes with many other blue collar professions women don't elect to pursue (construction, mechanics, plumbing, electrician, etc). It's a free country.

Whatever bias the uninformed wish to inject, HR departments, not 'white male' pilots, do the recruiting, interviewing and hiring these days and they bend over backwards to bolster their ranks with under-represented categories. At my current airline, there were 4 pilots involved in my interview, 2 males, 2 females, 1 of which was a minority. All panels had an HR rep present. No good ol' boy club here. Similar experience at United, except every slide and pamphlet had nothing but females and minorities.

I worked my way up through the regionals and for years witnessed first hand the countless number of female/minority FOs hired to the majors/legacies ahead of more experienced and qualified white male captains who couldn't even get an interview.

I agree with you that the airlines' target numbers aren't showing up, we just disagree as to why. It's not the days of old; no one is being institutionally barred from flying. I welcome evidence to the contrary.

Ha! That youtube vid exhibits how UAL doesn't even hide it anymore.

dawgdriver
06-19-2018, 03:51 PM
As Louis ck says (oh the irony based on his current rep) being considered an ********* is not up to you. Until every black, female, Indian, Asian, space alien, transgender, and m88b that was once alive during the time of rampant sexism and racism perpetuated by white men is dead, then these lovely reminders are certainly warranted and I welcome them. If you donít like it snowflake, then donít pay attention. (Iím white and male and my family wealth is directly tied to white privilege)

Definitely not white man's finest hour. I'm sure recent events and unveilings in the media, entertainment and corporate world have changed attitudes and perspectives forever.

As much as Weinstein/Lauer types are the flavor of the week--and deservedly so, it would be naive to claim white males are the only perpetrators of racism and sexism. There's not a gender or race on this planet that can claim the title of innocence. Plenty of guilt to go around and few can claim they haven't had those ugly stereotypes and done things they've regretted. Only by working with amazing people--of all backgrounds, genders and races, have I been able to remove those baseless foolish prejudices. A work in progress for all of us.

"let him who is without sin cast the first stone..."

Flightcap
06-19-2018, 04:30 PM
As a millennial and someone who frequently talks to young people about aviation as a career, I have yet to speak to any minority or gender who says "I want to be a pilot but I don't think I'll be taken seriously because of my XYZ identity."

I have, however, seen many minorities and women move on to higher paying positions much more quickly than their male counterparts. Do I envy them? No. Do I wish we would stop evaluating people, especially in the context of job offers, based on their skin color and gender? Yes.

Have we not considered as a society that perhaps women are represented differently than men in certain careers because women and men often have different career goals? My wife, for example, is a highly qualified bacterial researcher with higher education than myself. She wants to raise kids. Therefore she works part time and avoids advancement that would change her work schedule. Of course her yearly earnings and job title are not typical for someone with a Microbiology Ph.D. But that's ok. We've lost sight of this concept as society in trying to make men and women into the same when they're inherently not.



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