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View Full Version : Moxy Airways


David Puddy
06-18-2018, 06:58 AM
Not sure if this has already been discussed. Looks like he is in the funding stage. What is the proposed aircraft type? CS300s....

Read below:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says


skydisaster
06-18-2018, 07:00 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CaptCoolHand
06-18-2018, 07:23 AM
Neeleman is a great starter, but a bad finisher.

So this is Alligiant with jb flare?


PasserOGas
06-18-2018, 07:32 AM
Neeleman is a great starter, but a bad finisher.

So this is Alligiant with jb flare?

I thought jetblue was Allegant with jb flair.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 07:54 AM
New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 07:58 AM
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our fleet review and contract vote coming soon.

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 08:14 AM
New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.

I don't think finding pilots, at least not initial guys filling the left seat, will be a problem...plenty of regional guys will jump at the opportunity to get larger-than-regional jet PIC, and it will likely pay more than a regional captain makes. Furthermore, the notion of getting in on the ground floor with the possibility of winning the seniority lottery in organic growth or via an acquisition will attract people. Throw in the fact that they'll likely have regional hiring standards, ie 1500 hour CFIs for the right seat, I doubt they'll have any trouble filling both seats, unfortunately. Guess we will see.

METO Guido
06-18-2018, 08:29 AM
According to the article, he wants 100M for start up, the same number raised to bankroll JetBlue 20 years earlier?

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 08:49 AM
I don't think finding pilots, at least not initial guys filling the left seat, will be a problem...plenty of regional guys will jump at the opportunity to get larger-than-regional jet PIC, and it will likely pay more than a regional captain makes. Furthermore, the notion of getting in on the ground floor with the possibility of winning the seniority lottery in organic growth or via an acquisition will attract people. Throw in the fact that they'll likely have regional hiring standards, ie 1500 hour CFIs for the right seat, I doubt they'll have any trouble filling both seats, unfortunately. Guess we will see.

Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option, no good reason to take a bunch or risks for a stepping stone unless you know the established majors won't be calling... ever. Safer to just sit tight at your regional in most cases. If you just have to GTFO now, the ACMI's probably pay better, with no worse stability.

The FAA will require experienced CA's for the left seat, they will not let a startup hire 2500-hour regional FO's and put them in the left seat of a new-design narrowbody on a new certificate. Startups typically also hire experienced pilots for the right seat initially, on the premise that they will upgrade very quickly.

His B-Plan is going to need plenty of compensation for pilots. Or he's planning on staffing exclusively with pilots who have very significant black marks, ie felons, drunks, or documented incompetents, which would not bode well for safety (reference that learjet at TEB).

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 08:51 AM
According to the article, he wants 100M for start up, the same number raised to bankroll JetBlue 20 years earlier?

Won't need near the real estate/gates/landing fees that he needed with JetBlue if he's going point to point in secondary markets. I have to assume their overhead will be significantly lower. Fuel costs (or at least fuel quantity) will be significantly lower than his previous venture with significantly lower CASM. And I have to assume his financing terms for the 60 C series were probably pretty solid. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

Temocil27
06-18-2018, 08:56 AM
At least Moxy has a vision. The current JetBlue has very little in common with the airline Neeleman started. I imagine he wants to distance himself as much as possible from the current company.

GreatStory
06-18-2018, 09:06 AM
Good luck getting gate space. This thing is dead already.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 09:08 AM
Good luck getting gate space. This thing is dead already.

As somebody mentioned, there's plenty of gate capacity in small-ish/medium sized towns across the country... and they'd probably be happy to build more if it will attract air service.

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 09:09 AM
Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option, no good reason to take a bunch or risks for a stepping stone unless you know the established majors won't be calling. Safer to just sit tight at your regional in most cases.

The FAA will require experienced CA's for the left seat, they will not let a startup hire 2500 hour regional FO's and put them in the left seat of a new-design narrowbody on a new certificate. Startups typically also hire experienced pilots for the right seat initially, on the premise that they will upgrade very quickly.

His B-Plan is going to need plenty of compensation for pilots.

Guessing there are plenty of guys with 3k-5k hours (1k-2k+ TPIC), at regionals waiting on majors to call. Drop the degree requirement (likely won't be one at Moxy) and that opens a door for guys with no degree who are otherwise qualified. I've never seen any "start-up airline pilot minimums" in any FAA rules, and I'd venture to say that a current 121 captain, who has an FAA ATP, and who passes an FAA type ride in the C Series, is qualified in the FAA's eyes to act as a captain at a pt 121 airline, start-up or otherwise. I'd also venture to guess that Neeleman will pay Moxy CAs more than any regional will pay their CAs. If I was at a regional waiting for a major to call, I would possibly gamble with a start up while waiting, depending on the pay/benefits/bases/etc. The seniority, pay, and career expectations likely exceed that of any regional, with the exception of a guy having a possible near-term flow. And for the guys going straight to the left seat of Moxy, waiting for a big 6 to call, to then go be an FO again, may not be appealing. For guys in their first year at a regional, they could go be early FOs at Moxy with a potential quick upgrade, and make probably more money than they are making at said regional in either seat.

Guess we will see in a couple years how it plays out.

AYLflyer
06-18-2018, 09:10 AM
I swear if we announce an E2 after this...

CS is clearly the way to go.

iahflyr
06-18-2018, 09:48 AM
With the big 6 consolidating down to the big 3, I think it’s very likely to see some upstart competition on the Domestic side. We’ve already seen it happen on the International side

SUX4U
06-18-2018, 10:01 AM
Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option

Big Six? Heard of Big Three, even Big 4 with SWA. Big Six is new to me. Who falls under that umbrella?

Bluedriver
06-18-2018, 10:04 AM
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our ***fleet review*** and contract vote coming soon.

Soon? I think they moved fleet review to the shelf to finish up the sharklet retrofit of all our A320s.

METO Guido
06-18-2018, 10:07 AM
Won't need near the real estate/gates/landing fees that he needed with JetBlue if he's going point to point in secondary markets. I have to assume their overhead will be significantly lower. Fuel costs (or at least fuel quantity) will be significantly lower than his previous venture with significantly lower CASM. And I have to assume his financing terms for the 60 C series were probably pretty solid. Will be interesting to see how it works out.
So they're in talks with Chinese lessor for 18 delivered 2020-2022. Delta got 75 100's at a 65% MSRP reduction for between 25-27M each. The CS300 lists north of 70M. Just can't wrap my head around extending that kind of credit to an upstart when the odds are so long. Another JetBlue? Okey dokey.

Softpayman
06-18-2018, 10:28 AM
I swear if we announce an E2 after this...

CS is clearly the way to go.

You have about as much say in it as your favorite baggage handler. CS is not clearly the way to go, you have no idea what deal is on the table. Ur job is to show up for a new type if that's what you choose.

O2pilot
06-18-2018, 12:09 PM
Called “Moxy”. Will JB pilots be flying these planes? Or just codeshare.

JetBlue spinoff Moxy Airways has ordered 60 Bombardier C Series: report | Montreal Gazette (http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/jetblue-spinoff-moxy-airways-has-ordered-60-bombardier-c-series-report)

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 12:10 PM
JetBlue raising funds for a new Low- Cost Airline called Moxy Airways. Orders for 60 CS300s are in place to start flight in 2020. I guess management really likes the CSeries and sees their potential.

Is this where the profit is going? Are they trying to start another Airline and slowly unwind JetBlue Airways as we know it like Boeing did with their business?

OR

Is it just a scare to get the TA voted in?

Link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says

Smooth at FL450
06-18-2018, 12:14 PM
big six? Heard of big three, even big 4 with swa. Big six is new to me. Who falls under that umbrella?

ual, dal, aa, swa, ups, & fdx

O2pilot
06-18-2018, 12:15 PM
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our fleet review and contract vote coming soon.

I’ll bet some junior JB guys leave and go be initial cadre Captains and then after they merger with JB doing very nicely in a seniority integration.

airbus300
06-18-2018, 12:24 PM
My guess is that it is a totally seperate company that will probably do well. Might be a good stock to keep an eye on.

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 12:27 PM
My guess is that it is a totally seperate company that will probably do well. Might be a good stock to keep an eye on.

It probably is, but what if it's a move to start a different company without Union? Shrink JetBlue as soon as Moxy is doing well? It's an interesting move.

BunkerF16
06-18-2018, 12:27 PM
JetBlue raising funds for a new Low- Cost Airline called Moxy Airways. Orders for 60 CS300s are in place to start flight in 2020. I guess management really likes the CSeries and sees their potential.

Is this where the profit is going? Are they trying to start another Airline and slowly unwind JetBlue Airways as we know it like Boeing did with their business?

OR

Is it just a scare to get the TA voted in?

Link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says


No. Neeleman isn't associated with JB and wouldn't be angling to help the company out at the pilots' expense.

Besides, JB doesn't need any help with getting this pilot group to vote for this POS TA. They hired the "right" pilots all these years. It'll pass with 65-70% yes votes. Minimum.

GuppyPuppy
06-18-2018, 12:38 PM
Called “Moxy”. Will JB pilots be flying these planes? Or just codeshare.

JetBlue spinoff Moxy Airways has ordered 60 Bombardier C Series: report | Montreal Gazette (http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/jetblue-spinoff-moxy-airways-has-ordered-60-bombardier-c-series-report)

Not a spin-off.

Gup

CaptCoolHand
06-18-2018, 12:41 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

CaptCoolHand
06-18-2018, 12:41 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 01:10 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

I hope it doesn't. Good for discussion though.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 01:11 PM
Guessing there are plenty of guys with 3k-5k hours (1k-2k+ TPIC), at regionals waiting on majors to call. Drop the degree requirement (likely won't be one at Moxy) and that opens a door for guys with no degree who are otherwise qualified. I've never seen any "start-up airline pilot minimums" in any FAA rules, and I'd venture to say that a current 121 captain, who has an FAA ATP, and who passes an FAA type ride in the C Series, is qualified in the FAA's eyes to act as a captain at a pt 121 airline, start-up or otherwise.

That's what I said, the FAA will want CA's with PREVIOUS experience, who are in the ballpark for the established majors (who will be calling a lot of folks about the time this thing is ready to fly).

Spirit can hire regional FO's with 2,000 hours and no PIC... Moxy cannot initially.

There is no set regulatory requirement for CA experience at a startup, but that's part of what goes into issuing a 121 certificate... who are they issuing it to? If the FAA isn't happy with the initial cadre, they will not issue the cert. To make matters worse, most of the initial cadre will need to be LCA as well, and some of them will need previous LCA experience to prime the pump.

If they decide the be the "non college degree airline" that might get them enough of an initial cadre.

Or maybe not... how many senior regional lifers are going to give up massive seniority for a startup with an uncertain fate?


I'd also venture to guess that Neeleman will pay Moxy CAs more than any regional will pay their CAs. If I was at a regional waiting for a major to call, I would possibly gamble with a start up while waiting, depending on the pay/benefits/bases/etc. The seniority, pay, and career expectations likely exceed that of any regional, with the exception of a guy having a possible near-term flow.

That's what I was saying, he's going to have to come in pretty darn high to get the experience he needs for initial cadre. He has to offset the startup risk, at a time when stable majors are hiring many and paying very well.

Only way around it might be to hire the initial cadre at a contractually guaranteed level of compensation, and then set a B scale for new hires later on. The usual startup trick of promising more later is probably not going to work in this climate. It worked in the past because airlines were going BK, and you could find CA's from L-US, Indy Air, Midwest, ACMIs, etc.

And for the guys going straight to the left seat of Moxy, waiting for a big 6 to call, to then go be an FO again, may not be appealing.

Maybe. No one will have longevity though. Right now 20+ year regional, fractional, and ACMI CA's are leaving for the big six.


For guys in their first year at a regional, they could go be early FOs at Moxy with a potential quick upgrade, and make probably more money than they are making at said regional in either seat.

I'm sure many would, we see that right now with the ULCC's.

But with ULCC's, LCC's and even some legacies struggling with applicant quality, it's going to be even tougher for a startup.

nuball5
06-18-2018, 01:28 PM
I hope it doesn't. Good for discussion though.


The only thing really to discuss is how long would it take for JetBlue to receive their first CSeries (if they go that route), if Airbus/Bombardier are at capacity filling orders for other airlines.

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 01:34 PM
The only thing really to discuss is how long would it take for JetBlue to receive their first CSeries (if they go that route), if Airbus/Bombardier are at capacity filling orders for other airlines.

Next thing I'd guess is JetBlue might really see the opportunity in the CSeries and put an order in for here, instead of the E2s. If "Molly" can do the smaller airports with the CS300s, why not JetBlue?

Triggs
06-18-2018, 02:40 PM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 03:03 PM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

That would be easier. As long as enough CA's and instructors are willing to come with it. The paper can be sold, but the pilots don't HAVE to go with it...

O2pilot
06-18-2018, 04:14 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

Why aren’t they focusing on growing JB instead of starting a shadow airline. Its all the same people running this. Maybe not a “spinoff” but that gets them around scope possibly.

David Puddy
06-18-2018, 05:20 PM
Next thing I'd guess is JetBlue might really see the opportunity in the CSeries and put an order in for here, instead of the E2s. If "Molly" can do the smaller airports with the CS300s, why not JetBlue?

The CS300 is very versatile airplane - and Neeleman knows it. The E2 has fewer seats, less range and it can’t compare ergonomically to the CSeries. What’s remarkable is that Neeleman becomes a big proponent of the CSeries while simultaneously operating one of the largest E190 fleets out there with Azul in Brazil (and JB before that). I am betting Embraer ain’t too happy considering both JB and Spirit are evaluating both the CSeries and the E2 these days. This speculative order for 60 airframes is a BIG vote of confidence in the CS300 and what it can do...

Softpayman
06-18-2018, 05:27 PM
The CS300 is very versatile airplane - and Neeleman knows it. The E2 has fewer seats, less range and it can’t compare ergonomically to the CSeries. What’s remarkable is that Neeleman becomes a big proponent of the CSeries while simultaneously operating one of the largest E190 fleets out there with Azul in Brazil (and JB before that). I am betting Embraer ain’t too happy considering both JB and Spirit are evaluating both the CSeries and the E2 these days. This speculative order for 60 airframes is a BIG vote of confidence in the CS300 and what it can do...

I’d say the decision was between the CS300 and A320 NEO.... those to me are as comparable as E195 and CS300 are.

hilltopflyer
06-18-2018, 05:40 PM
Why aren’t they focusing on growing JB instead of starting a shadow airline. Its all the same people running this. Maybe not a “spinoff” but that gets them around scope possibly.

It’s the old jetblue people. Not current b6

dawgdriver
06-18-2018, 05:42 PM
That would be easier. As long as enough CA's and instructors are willing to come with it. The paper can be sold, but the pilots don't HAVE to go with it...

Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 05:47 PM
Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

If they offered very good QOL options, they could attract plenty of pilots, especially under 50. For a hard 21 days off/month, I'd consider it and take a pay cut too. Don't care what they do to me for the other ten days.

David Puddy
06-18-2018, 05:56 PM
I’d say the decision was between the CS300 and A320 NEO.... those to me are as comparable as E195 and CS300 are.

Neeleman knows a lot about the A320 NEO - Azul in Brazil operates plenty of them in addition to a large fleet of E195s. The CS300 has a better CASM and it is super versatile in terms of the airports it can serve.

SWISS is so pleased with the CSeries it compiled this list of facts/figures about its experience with it:

https://blog.swiss.com/en/2018/05/facts-figures-bombardier-c-series/

Qotsaautopilot
06-18-2018, 06:19 PM
They will have zero issues finding pilots. Expressjet is about to implode as part of skywest’s long term union busting plan. That’s at least 1500 pilots. Eastern reboot found plenty and from the ones I’ve talked to that came to Spirit, many would’ve stayed at eastern if it hadn’t tanked

Speedbird2263
06-18-2018, 08:11 PM
I wonder if Azura Airways, the airline company he registered in Connecticut last year, is related to Moxy. Perhaps even one and the same, only time will tell.

Bozo the pilot
06-18-2018, 08:16 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

Na- Theyre too busy grinding axes and looking for black helicopters. :rolleyes:

sailingfun
06-19-2018, 04:13 AM
Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

Probably thinking about the millions in stock they hold!

rickair7777
06-19-2018, 05:18 AM
They will have zero issues finding pilots. Expressjet is about to implode as part of skywest’s long term union busting plan. That’s at least 1500 pilots. Eastern reboot found plenty and from the ones I’ve talked to that came to Spirit, many would’ve stayed at eastern if it hadn’t tanked

If the timing's right. But if he's not ready to hire, those 1500 will get snapped up within a year or less elsewhere (except maybe the worst scrapings from the bottom of the barrel, but that's not what you want at a startup anyway).

I never said he can't find pilots, I said he'll have to pay to get the ones he needs (experienced CA's and LCAs) to take a chance on a startup.

captjns
06-19-2018, 05:51 AM
The man ha a proven track record in the U.S. and S.A. It’s a gamble... for sure. However... think about the seniority numbers... 15,000+ with a legacy? Or a range from 01 to 100 with an upstart that has the possibility of growing. You have carriers in the U.S. operating into secondary markets with success. Yeah some, for example Skybus, Independence, People’s Express 2.0 folded.

But at the end of the day, being 15,000 on the seniority list runs the risk of being furloughed, during tough times, for many years... many are too young to remember the ‘70s.

ULCC may not carry the same glory as AA, DAL, UAL, etc... but hey they said SWA, Allegiant, Spirit would never make it... and how are they doing today:rolleyes:?

David Puddy
06-19-2018, 08:51 AM
The man ha a proven track record in the U.S. and S.A. It’s a gamble... for sure. However... think about the seniority numbers... 15,000+ with a legacy? Or a range from 01 to 100 with an upstart that has the possibility of growing. You have carriers in the U.S. operating into secondary markets with success. Yeah some, for example Skybus, Independence, People’s Express 2.0 folded.

But at the end of the day, being 15,000 on the seniority list runs the risk of being furloughed, during tough times, for many years... many are too young to remember the ‘70s.

ULCC may not carry the same glory as AA, DAL, UAL, etc... but hey they said SWA, Allegiant, Spirit would never make it... and how are they doing today:rolleyes:?

That’s true - Neeleman is “bankable” because he has a track record (Morris Air, Westjet, JetBlue and Azul in Brazil). Plus, the former CEO of Air Canada is on board as an investor as well - lending more credibility.

Again, I personally find it interesting that Neeleman chose the CS300 despite being the biggest operator of Embraer E190/95s in the world through Azul and JetBlue. If that isn’t a confidence booster in the CSeries program before the big Farnborough Airshow in July I don’t know what is...

SUX4U
06-19-2018, 08:59 AM
ual, dal, aa, swa, ups, & fdx

Gotcha! Thank you.

MaCrOs
06-19-2018, 09:01 AM
Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

They’re thinking “I’m making $300 an hour flying 737 with super productive trips and top of the line contract. Life is awesome.”

rickair7777
06-19-2018, 11:17 AM
Again, I personally find it interesting that Neeleman chose the CS300 despite being the biggest operator of Embraer E190/95s in the world through Azul and JetBlue. If that isn’t a confidence booster in the CSeries program before the big Farnborough Airshow in July I don’t know what is...

I doubt he would have gone there is airbus had not bought the whole program. Actually they were given the program.

Varsity
06-19-2018, 02:11 PM
It's been awhile since someone has attempted a startup.

rickair7777
06-19-2018, 05:39 PM
It's been awhile since someone has attempted a startup.

Funny thing is, I was talking to my wife last week and wondering about when another one would pop up.

Virgalask330
06-19-2018, 07:54 PM
Funny thing is, I was talking to my wife last week and wondering about when another one would pop up.

Ok so maybe I’m not the only JFK Alaska pilot looking at this startup...ha

Pogey Bait
06-19-2018, 11:57 PM
That’s true - Neeleman is “bankable” because he has a track record (Morris Air, Westjet, JetBlue and Azul in Brazil). Plus, the former CEO of Air Canada is on board as an investor as well - lending more credibility.

Again, I personally find it interesting that Neeleman chose the CS300 despite being the biggest operator of Embraer E190/95s in the world through Azul and JetBlue. If that isn’t a confidence booster in the CSeries program before the big Farnborough Airshow in July I don’t know what is...

Ya go check out the economics on this plane, SWA just wishes it was it was a 737. Thing can go coast to coast and anywhere in between.

SmitteyB
06-20-2018, 02:06 AM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

I don’t believe the FAA looks very favorable on this. I think the law changed after NWA bought the Independence Air ticket and kept it alive by keeping a single RJ running until it ultimately added E175s and renamed it Compass.

It is at the very least much much harder to do than it ever was before. That is why you never saw Pinnacle or Delta sell the Mesaba OR Colgan 121 Certificates.

rickair7777
06-20-2018, 06:19 AM
Ok so maybe I’m not the only JFK Alaska pilot looking at this startup...ha

You guys are probably the only pool of experienced major airline pilots who might be on the market for a startup right now.

nkbux
06-20-2018, 06:41 AM
With all due respect... and I’m really not flaming...why not start over at B6 or TRY and get in at UAL or DL for an NYC base...I know it’s a massive pay cut but it can’t be more miserable than commuting to sfo...I’d sleep better at night being on the bottom of JetBlue’s list than I would at a start up

Virgalask330
06-20-2018, 09:55 AM
With all due respect... and I’m really not flaming...why not start over at B6 or TRY and get in at UAL or DL for an NYC base...I know it’s a massive pay cut but it can’t be more miserable than commuting to sfo...I’d sleep better at night being on the bottom of JetBlue’s list than I would at a start up

I agree with you, but it’s fun to toy around with the idea.

windrider
06-20-2018, 12:10 PM
Hmmm...60 planes? We have 60, I mean 58 E-190s. Why 60?? We sell off our 60 and buy them. Big plan unveiled!

CaptCoolHand
06-21-2018, 06:51 AM
Hmmm...60 planes? We have 60, I mean 58 E-190s. Why 60?? We sell off our 60 and buy them. Big plan unveiled!

56... don't forget blueginsu in RDU... SLICE AND DICE!

dawgdriver
06-21-2018, 09:04 AM
I agree with you, but it’s fun to toy around with the idea.

Yes it is. I'm sure there's a pool of interested applicants who may be willing to take a risk at a fun, fresh start-up with new ideas, rapid growth, upgrades and seniority. Well managed, nimble, unconstrained by expensive, burdensome contracts, it might succeed in carving out a niche. Or, like many others, it may fail. The question becomes the degree of risk exposure and whether it's outweighed by the potential rewards. Certainly not for the majority of qualified pilots, most of which are looking at the benefits of a mature, stable carrier with lucrative contracts.

Neeleman is not a newcomer to this industry. His plan to attract pilots will likely target those uninterested in a career seen by some as working for a faceless, tired, old, boring, politically correct, legacy culture. How he sells it will determine the degree of interest and participation. Hopefully he's getting sound advice and is aware of the dramatic change in landscape; tough sell given the opportunities and advancement opportunities elsewhere. As far as pilots are concerned, he will not be able to take advantage of what new entrants have historically enjoyed: cheap wages. A low ball 'entry-level' compensation package will not draw the numbers he'll be looking to attract.

rickair7777
06-21-2018, 10:54 AM
With all due respect... and I’m really not flaming...why not start over at B6 or TRY and get in at UAL or DL for an NYC base...I know it’s a massive pay cut but it can’t be more miserable than commuting to sfo...I’d sleep better at night being on the bottom of JetBlue’s list than I would at a start up


Might work out in the long run. But some of those guys have mortgages based on CA pay or senior FO pay. Hard to tell the wife you have to sell the house. You could make the case for DL/UA, a little harder for JB.

sflpilot
06-21-2018, 02:36 PM
They will have zero issues finding pilots. Expressjet is about to implode as part of skywest’s long term union busting plan. That’s at least 1500 pilots. Eastern reboot found plenty and from the ones I’ve talked to that came to Spirit, many would’ve stayed at eastern if it hadn’t tanked

What's going on with XJT? Are they actually going to close the entire place.

Qotsaautopilot
06-22-2018, 07:08 AM
What's going on with XJT? Are they actually going to close the entire place.

That’s the rumor at least. When 25yr lifers leave for $55/hr and commute you know it’s bad

nkbux
06-22-2018, 05:57 PM
Might work out in the long run. But some of those guys have mortgages based on CA pay or senior FO pay. Hard to tell the wife you have to sell the house. You could make the case for DL/UA, a little harder for JB.

Very true and living in the northeast doesn’t help the scenario at all...high real estate costs and insane property taxes...hard to live on 60k even if it’s only for a year...

Desert Sky
06-29-2018, 12:03 AM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale
I can't help to think that Allegiant Air will be spun-off/sold from Allegiant Travel Company and be used to start this Moxy venture. Allegiant Air is virtually the same biz plan and is turn-key.

dawgdriver
06-29-2018, 08:17 AM
I can't help to think that Allegiant Air will be spun-off/sold from Allegiant Travel Company and be used to start this Moxy venture. Allegiant Air is virtually the same biz plan and is turn-key.

Same business plan? How so? Unlike G4, Moxie is planning DAILY service to smaller airports between big cities. Likely to target more of a mix of business class and leisure then Allegiant, who's entire business plan is focused on leisure travel, with profits largely dependent on ancillary sales (hotel rooms, shows, rental cars,...Elvis glasses).

Turn key? So, get rid of the 60 orders for new C series, (like Neeleman did with JetBlue) probably at give-away introductory leases,...and use (mostly) old Allegiant airbii?

Then take on burdensome, inflexible, costly labor contracts, thus negating the few advantages of a new startup? Finally, the $100M he's hoping to raise wont put a dent in G4's market cap of $2.2B.

I don't see it, but hey, I'm just a pilot. That said, if I had a dime for every merger envisioned by a pilot…

David Puddy
06-29-2018, 08:53 AM
Wouldn’t be surprised if we hear more about Moxy at Farnborough in July. Neeleman has some influential investors backing him as well.

Aero1900
07-18-2018, 06:31 AM
Just saw a quick story on the news about Moxy, although they didn't call it Moxy.

Story said they held an investor meeting at the airshow, and reported that the airline will fly into smaller airports like Trenton, NJ and Providence, RI. Free wifi and premium seating.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 06:37 AM
Just saw a quick story on the news about Moxy, although they didn't call it Moxy.

Story said they held an investor meeting at the airshow, and reported that the airline will fly into smaller airports like Trenton, NJ and Providence, RI. Free wifi and premium seating.

Hmmmmmm.

Looks like he is trying to go with the original SWA plan.

ReserveCA
07-18-2018, 07:54 AM
Moxy......when F9 gets released and a strike occurs....wide open route structure for the scab airline

hilltopflyer
07-18-2018, 08:23 AM
Moxy......when F9 gets released and a strike occurs....wide open route structure for the scab airline

If it’s going to take three years for frontier to get released I’m scared for them.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 10:18 AM
They won’t get released.

No airline ever will again.

Airline strikes cannot ever be allowed. People love their $53 fares, and politicians know it.

sflpilot
07-21-2018, 05:22 PM
They won’t get released.

No airline ever will again.

Airline strikes cannot ever be allowed. People love their $53 fares, and politicians know it.

Probably true. Looks like they won't even get a match of Spirit rates.

David Puddy
09-21-2018, 03:57 PM
Here’s the latest about Moxy:

https://skift.com/2018/09/21/jetblue-founder-sees-his-startup-as-tech-company-that-happens-to-fly-planes/

David Puddy
09-21-2018, 04:10 PM
Getting some more details about his plans. Moxy is not the official name - just the working name. Curious to understand what he means about “innovative ways to recruit pilots.”

Sounds like the performance of the CS300/A220 also really convinced him to get back in the LCC game in the US...

Here’s the article:

https://skift.com/2018/09/21/jetblue-founder-sees-his-startup-as-tech-company-that-happens-to-fly-planes/

Sounds like his plans are coming together.

Beaverbeliever
09-21-2018, 11:53 PM
From reading his words, here is what it looks like to me:
-Point-to-point on routes with no competition. This means his price competition is with airlines that would need to operate 2 legs at least, which is obviously more expensive, so even at a 30% discount (in his words), they are still making a healthy profit. These routes are also going to be thin, thus the A220 being the answer metal-wise.
-Automated ticketing and customer service via the website and phone app, saving $$$. I'm guessing ancillary income to be a major part as well. Want to print your boarding pass at the airport? It's gonna cost you. Want to pick your seat? It's gonna cost you. Want to bring on a carry on? It's gonna cost you.
-Recruiting low hour pilots from regionals around the time they are upgrade eligible, giving them 121 experience, but being a stepping stone for the legacies. I expect pilot pay would represent a middle ground between regional and major as well, but the major benefit would be to get a type rating that will be in use at Delta (and perhaps others) in the near future.

sailingfun
09-22-2018, 02:53 AM
From reading his words, here is what it looks like to me:
-Point-to-point on routes with no competition. This means his price competition is with airlines that would need to operate 2 legs at least, which is obviously more expensive, so even at a 30% discount (in his words), they are still making a healthy profit. These routes are also going to be thin, thus the A220 being the answer metal-wise.
-Automated ticketing and customer service via the website and phone app, saving $$$. I'm guessing ancillary income to be a major part as well. Want to print your boarding pass at the airport? It's gonna cost you. Want to pick your seat? It's gonna cost you. Want to bring on a carry on? It's gonna cost you.
-Recruiting low hour pilots from regionals around the time they are upgrade eligible, giving them 121 experience, but being a stepping stone for the legacies. I expect pilot pay would represent a middle ground between regional and major as well, but the major benefit would be to get a type rating that will be in use at Delta (and perhaps others) in the near future.

The majors don’t care about type ratings. He will recruit pilots with stock options with at least a 5 year vesting while paying actual wages well below market value. Keeps the pilots around for five years and tends to keep them under his thumb to push the stock price higher.

penaltybox
09-22-2018, 06:58 AM
From reading his words, here is what it looks like to me:
-Point-to-point on routes with no competition. This means his price competition is with airlines that would need to operate 2 legs at least, which is obviously more expensive, so even at a 30% discount (in his words), they are still making a healthy profit. These routes are also going to be thin, thus the A220 being the answer metal-wise.
-Automated ticketing and customer service via the website and phone app, saving $$$. I'm guessing ancillary income to be a major part as well. Want to print your boarding pass at the airport? It's gonna cost you. Want to pick your seat? It's gonna cost you. Want to bring on a carry on? It's gonna cost you.
-Recruiting low hour pilots from regionals around the time they are upgrade eligible, giving them 121 experience, but being a stepping stone for the legacies. I expect pilot pay would represent a middle ground between regional and major as well, but the major benefit would be to get a type rating that will be in use at Delta (and perhaps others) in the near future.

PIC from a regional is a lot more valuable than a A220 type.

Packrat
09-23-2018, 08:42 AM
I wonder how the B6 pilots are going to feel about getting undercut by their former founder. Now they know how we felt. They'll love taking the Moxy boys to work on their jumpseats.

jcountry
09-23-2018, 12:35 PM
I bet he will look for foreign pilots on visas as FOs. Probably try and get some waiver on the mins.

captjns
09-23-2018, 01:06 PM
I bet he will look for foreign pilots on visas as FOs. Probably try and get some waiver on the mins.

How much you willing to bet? I’m sure they’ll be number of takers.

Std Deviation
09-23-2018, 01:57 PM
Curious to understand what he means about “innovative ways to recruit.”

Combination of bitcoin and Amazon gift cards?

blinkpilot182
10-15-2018, 09:07 AM
I’m a Captain on a heavy for an ACMI who definitely has my eye on this. If they are looking to start operations around 2020-2021 then I imagine they’ll be assembling an initial cadre in the near future. My shot in the dark would be as soon as 6 months to as late as 12-18 months. Does anyone with experience in start ups know how that usually plays out? Is it a “wink wink, nudge nudge”, “tap on the shoulder” kind of thing? Or should we expect to see a website put together clearly stating compensation and such?

-blink

CAirBear
10-15-2018, 01:14 PM
I’m a Captain on a heavy for an ACMI who definitely has my eye on this. If they are looking to start operations around 2020-2021 then I imagine they’ll be assembling an initial cadre in the near future. My shot in the dark would be as soon as 6 months to as late as 12-18 months. Does anyone with experience in start ups know how that usually plays out? Is it a “wink wink, nudge nudge”, “tap on the shoulder” kind of thing? Or should we expect to see a website put together clearly stating compensation and such?

-blink

Very good question! I have been wondering this as well.

captjns
10-15-2018, 04:47 PM
Very good question! I have been wondering this as well.

Generally, the founders of the operation will seek the advice from those who’ve had previous experience, Part 119 types, working towards getting an airline certified. An application, to start the process going, will be filed with the DOT, and FAA to see if those involved are viable for the operation. From that point it’s anyone’s guess who the management/119 team will proceed. Its quite a lengthy process to get the “OK” from the FAA/DOT to proceed with the application process.

Certification is dependent on the resources to get the airline certified, and the CMO in the FSDO to be assigned to the certification process.

Varsity
10-17-2018, 10:25 AM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.

jcountry
10-17-2018, 10:57 AM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.

Are there any privately owned regionals left?

Excargodog
10-17-2018, 11:22 AM
Are there any privately owned regionals left?

Privately owned by holding companies are not uncommon

Skywest
ExpreesJet
Compass
TSA
GoJet

Among others

Notarealpilot
10-17-2018, 11:32 AM
Smart way to keep their payrates down they could offer pay scales $.50 on the dollar of regular C-series carriers and the regional lifers would vote yes. Along with all the savings of having a turn key operation.

WillFlyForSpam
10-17-2018, 12:54 PM
Are there any privately owned regionals left?

Island Air’s is for sale

PosNhold
10-17-2018, 01:00 PM
Silver Airways is also privately owned

SilentLurker
10-17-2018, 02:28 PM
Air Wisconsin.... only true privately held regional carrier remaining. Very wealthy overlords.

Doubtful a regional carrier would be bought to bring the new carrier to life. It’s not David Neeleman style.

Not one of his startups: Airline creation started with purchasing a Regional carrier.

Morris Air
WestJet
JetBlue Airways
Azul (Brazilian Airlines).

Even as TAP Air Portugal co-owner, he did not dab into purchasing regionals.

FlyPurdue
10-17-2018, 02:34 PM
JetSuite X is going through a rapid expansion here in Dallas, and hiring like crazy. This is surprising as they do not currently have any flights that touch the metroplex. That being said, their current strategy seems to be a bit more upmarket than the standard regional...seems like it could possibly align with Moxy...

ItnStln
10-17-2018, 02:49 PM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.

That would make sense if they were buying an E Jet operator and replacing the fleet with the E2.

rickair7777
10-17-2018, 03:14 PM
Doubtful a regional carrier would be bought to bring the new carrier to life. It’s not David Neeleman style.



Obvious disadvantage is inheriting an existing presumably unionized pilot group, which could then ask for and probably get industry-average NB rates... probably not what a startup really wants, since they are all about leveraging and cashing in on low longevity and startup mentality sacrifice. A crusty, bitter, old regional pilot group won't be going for that koolaid...

But in this climate, that might be the only choice to acquire experienced, competent pilots. I saw that as the real show-stopper for a startup right now, but it might work if he "saves" some smaller regional from their inevitable fate.

tom11011
10-18-2018, 01:30 PM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.


This would be the most likely scenario in my opinion. It solves all the problems. Find a struggling regional carrier that is shrinking due to pilot attrition, maybe one that doesn't have pay scales based on the number of seats, and transition out of the regional airline business slowly.

At this point, you are adding a new aircraft type to your certificate, slowly adding airplanes and crews with a new business model, all while shutting down the fee for departure model and letting contracts with major airlines just expire.

Beaverbeliever
10-18-2018, 10:08 PM
This would be the most likely scenario in my opinion. It solves all the problems. Find a struggling regional carrier that is shrinking due to pilot attrition, maybe one that doesn't have pay scales based on the number of seats, and transition out of the regional airline business slowly.

At this point, you are adding a new aircraft type to your certificate, slowly adding airplanes and crews with a new business model, all while shutting down the fee for departure model and letting contracts with major airlines just expire.

Sounds like a perfect fate for Compass. Maybe HK already had a better bid than Delta supposedly offered. Compass has a relatively young pilot group that may think of the deal as a savior if the Delta contract is going away.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

sailingfun
10-19-2018, 06:31 AM
Moxy is planned to be a startup with a new operating certificate. He wants a clean sheet airline. Untangling current agreements and disposing of a existing fleet would be far more expensive than starting from scratch with all first year employees. The delivery schedule on the airframes is timed to allow the certification process to be complete before the airframes arrive.

BoJet
10-19-2018, 12:29 PM
Moxy is planned to be a startup with a new operating certificate. He wants a clean sheet airline. Untangling current agreements and disposing of a existing fleet would be far more expensive than starting from scratch with all first year employees. The delivery schedule on the airframes is timed to allow the certification process to be complete before the airframes arrive.

I hope this bottom feeder Neeleman fails miserably with this venture. His M.O. is to start airlines and sell them before the $H!T hits the fan. Now, His whole case for needing a new airline is "No new entrants" in the market. He compares Apples to Oranges to make a sensational argument for his company.
His claim is, USA needs competition because demand has risen while there have been no new Airlines entering service. See: Apples and Oranges. If he was to compare Apples to Apple, he would compare the DEMAND of air travel with the SUPPLY of ASMs. In fact, as of the past couple years, ASM growth has outpaced actual Passenger Miles flown. This is because Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier have been growing at double digit growth rates. The legacy carriers, Southwest, Alaska and Hawaiian are also growing Domestic market significantly.
What this guy does should be criminal. He is nothing more than another Lorenzo or Icahn. He creates new companies with Year 1 labor, new planes, sweetheart deals, no unions ETC. This creates an unfair operating cost advantage. The airline will offer predatory pricing to squeeze into the market and take jobs away from established carriers who offer passengers and employees stability. Sometime before the notes on the aircraft come due, heavy checks need to be performed ($$$), labor groups unionize, etc, He will dump his stock and move on to the next one - Rinse and Repeat.
Don't believe me? First Morris Air then Jetblue then Azul next Moxy. Look at why Jetblue lags the market in yield. They've never had to worry about the costs that every other airline has: Union wages, heavy maintenance costs, aircraft notes etc. So, they've never had to control costs and watch capacity discipline like everybody else. Now they're struggling to catch up with ideas such as Mint, 321LRs etc.

CAirBear
10-19-2018, 04:50 PM
I hope this bottom feeder Neeleman fails miserably with this venture. His M.O. is to start airlines and sell them before the $H!T hits the fan. Now, His whole case for needing a new airline is "No new entrants" in the market. He compares Apples to Oranges to make a sensational argument for his company.
His claim is, USA needs competition because demand has risen while there have been no new Airlines entering service. See: Apples and Oranges. If he was to compare Apples to Apple, he would compare the DEMAND of air travel with the SUPPLY of ASMs. In fact, as of the past couple years, ASM growth has outpaced actual Passenger Miles flown. This is because Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier have been growing at double digit growth rates. The legacy carriers, Southwest, Alaska and Hawaiian are also growing Domestic market significantly.
What this guy does should be criminal. He is nothing more than another Lorenzo or Icahn. He creates new companies with Year 1 labor, new planes, sweetheart deals, no unions ETC. This creates an unfair operating cost advantage. The airline will offer predatory pricing to squeeze into the market and take jobs away from established carriers who offer passengers and employees stability. Sometime before the notes on the aircraft come due, heavy checks need to be performed ($$$), labor groups unionize, etc, He will dump his stock and move on to the next one - Rinse and Repeat.
Don't believe me? First Morris Air then Jetblue then Azul next Moxy. Look at why Jetblue lags the market in yield. They've never had to worry about the costs that every other airline has: Union wages, heavy maintenance costs, aircraft notes etc. So, they've never had to control costs and watch capacity discipline like everybody else. Now they're struggling to catch up with ideas such as Mint, 321LRs etc.

Given that this is not 10 years ago, by the time Moxy starts (24-36 months) he is going to have an extremely difficult time having an airline with anything other than competitive and legitimate pay rates. The days of offering some garbage (old Spirit contract) or current book Frontier are over. It’s not happening.

More and more regionals have “flows” to legacies and your not leaving unless it’s a very good job and commesurate with your Legacy job that’s “in the bag”.

I know there are people that love to say the pilot shortage is BS, but it isn’t. I live in a medium/large sized city in the US and our local corporate flight departments are really starting to see a shortage. It’s not going to get any better.

TransWorld
10-19-2018, 06:26 PM
I know there are people that love to say the pilot shortage is BS, but it isn’t. I live in a medium/large sized city in the US and our local corporate flight departments are really starting to see a shortage. It’s not going to get any better.

Concur. Just a few years ago, a lot of CAs at regionals had 25 years, and were still waiting for the call. Though there are a few like that today (as well as lifers), the CAs with 10 years are frequently getting hired today.

Many pilots who have gotten out during the lost decade and in desk jobs have decided to jump back in. RTP has started up, as has Cadet programs. RJ FO starting pay has doubled.

The hiring boom really hasn’t fully hit. It is grinding away at the supply sources. At some point the shortage really will hit, and the airlines will have to take further, more drastic actions.

We live in interesting times.

jcountry
10-20-2018, 06:24 AM
I don’t think people are understanding what privately held means.

Skyw has stock in the public market. That is not privately held

rickair7777
10-20-2018, 09:50 AM
Given that this is not 10 years ago, by the time Moxy starts (24-36 months) he is going to have an extremely difficult time having an airline with anything other than competitive and legitimate pay rates. The days of offering some garbage (old Spirit contract) or current book Frontier are over. It’s not happening.

More and more regionals have “flows” to legacies and your not leaving unless it’s a very good job and commesurate with your Legacy job that’s “in the bag”.

I know there are people that love to say the pilot shortage is BS, but it isn’t. I live in a medium/large sized city in the US and our local corporate flight departments are really starting to see a shortage. It’s not going to get any better.


Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

tom11011
10-20-2018, 10:57 AM
If the pay is somewhere between regional scales and big 6 scales, people will flock to it from anywhere and everywhere.

sailingfun
10-20-2018, 01:25 PM
Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

The above is simply not true. He will have no trouble finding pilots to staff the operation. He will offer a strong stock option package and wages well above the regionals. There are plenty of experienced pilots at the regionals who have a reason or two they are stuck there. They will flock to join Moxy.

hilltopflyer
10-20-2018, 01:31 PM
If the pay is somewhere between regional scales and big 6 scales, people will flock to it from anywhere and everywhere.

Except any base is going to be a two leg commute or a local person.

rickair7777
10-20-2018, 03:48 PM
The above is simply not true. He will have no trouble finding pilots to staff the operation. He will offer a strong stock option package and wages well above the regionals. There are plenty of experienced pilots at the regionals who have a reason or two they are stuck there. They will flock to join Moxy.

Unless they're stuck at a really bad regional, why risk it? Better wages maybe, but even more risky than a regional in the mid-term. Yeah there will always be people who will go, but a startup is going to be a lot of work. And again, they need LCA, sim guys, and people with certificate experience. The FAA simply won't let them do a startup with the dregs of the regional lifers.

KC135
10-21-2018, 11:40 AM
Given that this is not 10 years ago, by the time Moxy starts (24-36 months) he is going to have an extremely difficult time having an airline with anything other than competitive and legitimate pay rates. The days of offering some garbage (old Spirit contract) or current book Frontier are over. It’s not happening.

More and more regionals have “flows” to legacies and your not leaving unless it’s a very good job and commesurate with your Legacy job that’s “in the bag”.

Unfortunately I disagree. F9 has had no issue with filling classes in 2018. There are plenty of regional applicants that don't have flow. Most know that the early pilots hired at WestJet all became millionaires from the stock options fairly quick. I'm not saying that will repeat but wages higher than a regional is viewed as a career advancement to somebody making regional wages.

sailingfun
10-22-2018, 04:33 AM
Unless they're stuck at a really bad regional, why risk it? Better wages maybe, but even more risky than a regional in the mid-term. Yeah there will always be people who will go, but a startup is going to be a lot of work. And again, they need LCA, sim guys, and people with certificate experience. The FAA simply won't let them do a startup with the dregs of the regional lifers.

Is record starting airlines is excellent. They are either still operating or merged like Morris with SWA. Based on his history it’s low risk with the potential for big rewards.
As far as the FAA if the pilots can pass a check ride they are good to go. The only pilots even hired during the certification process will be management and check airman.

CrowneVic
12-06-2018, 02:57 PM
Anyone have any latest greatest about Moxy? I'm curious as to how things turn out and develop. Not much info out there. Could be interesting.

Big E 757
12-06-2018, 06:01 PM
Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

I hope you are right. But there are pilots taking jobs for $100K to fly a 787 for OSM (NAI). There will be plenty of pilots who fill out an application and explain it away as getting in on the ground floor and talk about a fun “culture”, and being a part of something great. They’ll also have it in the back of their mind that the A220 type will help them get on at Delta.

We are our own worst enemy.

The biggest obstacle (not saying it’s right or wrong) is our government. They allow a start up to offer $19 fares on a route that is another Airline’s bread and butter, and that’s ok, but if said airline offers $15 on the same route, that’s predatory pricing, and illegal.

A start up can use their advantage (low cost structure) to under cut you, but you can’t use your advantage (volume and route structure) to defend your business.

DarkSideMoon
12-07-2018, 12:41 PM
Unless they're stuck at a really bad regional, why risk it? Better wages maybe, but even more risky than a regional in the mid-term. Yeah there will always be people who will go, but a startup is going to be a lot of work. And again, they need LCA, sim guys, and people with certificate experience. The FAA simply won't let them do a startup with the dregs of the regional lifers.

I’m super early on in my career with no family obligations. I’d happily roll the dice on a startup because if it fails in 5 years I still have plenty of time to recover, and if it takes off I can retire early.

GreatBigSea
12-08-2018, 11:33 AM
Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

Start paying the smart, experienced pilots at 10 years longevity. Once the cert is granted and you're ready to hire your run of the mill line pilots, start them at the bottom of the scale.

Will there be a bucket load of pilots busting down the door to go there? Nope. But there will be enough to fill classes. If not, you tweak the starting pay and incentives just enough to keep the classes full.

David Puddy
12-09-2018, 06:21 AM
When is the proposed startup date again? 2021? With all of the needed planning (including official brand name since Moxy was temporary), we probably won’t hear any details for another 6-12 months. I am interested to hear more about their model and how they will compete against the Legacies and LCCs....

badflaps
12-09-2018, 10:00 AM
When is the proposed startup date again? 2021? With all of the needed planning (including official brand name since Moxy was temporary), we probably won’t hear any details for another 6-12 months. I am interested to hear more about their model and how they will compete against the Legacies and LCCs....
If you put as much research in as you did with the mini-bus, the results should be worthy of a NY analyst.:D

hoover
12-09-2018, 11:37 AM
I’m super early on in my career with no family obligations. I’d happily roll the dice on a startup because if it fails in 5 years I still have plenty of time to recover, and if it takes off I can retire early.

Except when that airline fails and it's a bad economy and no one is hiring except bottom feeders that pay even less for more work and then the FAA raises retirement age to 70 because those senior guys can't retire with 10 million in the bank and need to work 5 more yrs to pay for their 4th wife and 5th house and you get stuck at said bottom feeder for 10 yrs and now have an investigation on your record because that crap company won't do maintenance and you went anyways because hey gotta have a job and they'll fire you if you don't so now you can't move on as easily as thought when you went to that startup and your peers who went with a household name are still there albeit not a captain but making a comfortable living and not hating their decisions of going with that startup when everyone else was hiring .
How's that for a run on sentence?

Excargodog
12-09-2018, 12:29 PM
Except when that airline fails and it's a bad economy and no one is hiring except bottom feeders that pay even less for more work and then the FAA raises retirement age to 70 because those senior guys can't retire with 10 million in the bank and need to work 5 more yrs to pay for their 4th wife and 5th house and you get stuck at said bottom feeder for 10 yrs and now have an investigation on your record because that crap company won't do maintenance and you went anyways because hey gotta have a job and they'll fire you if you don't so now you can't move on as easily as thought when you went to that startup and your peers who went with a household name are still there albeit not a captain but making a comfortable living and not hating their decisions of going with that startup when everyone else was hiring .
How's that for a run on sentence?

Except they'll have brand new shiny jets that will attract some people because they will be shiny new jets and some people for the quick upgrades into a type rating into an airframe that a couple majors will be flying. And a lot of retiring military people who have been out of the cockpit for a few years will be happy to make their 'knock the rust off/introduction to 121 flying' at Moxy.

No, the only thing that would stop Moxy manning would be lousy pay/QOL or a credible threat that those working there would be boycotted from future hiring by the majors, and I can't picture the latter happening. The former seems sort of doubtful too.

DarkSideMoon
12-09-2018, 03:20 PM
Except when that airline fails and it's a bad economy and no one is hiring except bottom feeders that pay even less for more work and then the FAA raises retirement age to 70 because those senior guys can't retire with 10 million in the bank and need to work 5 more yrs to pay for their 4th wife and 5th house and you get stuck at said bottom feeder for 10 yrs and now have an investigation on your record because that crap company won't do maintenance and you went anyways because hey gotta have a job and they'll fire you if you don't so now you can't move on as easily as thought when you went to that startup and your peers who went with a household name are still there albeit not a captain but making a comfortable living and not hating their decisions of going with that startup when everyone else was hiring .
How's that for a run on sentence?

I’d just go back to bartending until the whole thing blew over.

hoover
12-11-2018, 10:14 AM
Definitely worth a shot then.

PosNhold
12-14-2018, 05:21 AM
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblue-founder-david-neeleman-on-new-airline

David Puddy
12-14-2018, 08:14 AM
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblue-founder-david-neeleman-on-new-airline

Very interesting article. Three best points for me:

1. The A220 will be used flexibly (both short and longer routes)
2. The new airline will not directly compete with JB on routes and it will likely connect city pairs not currently connected with nonstop flights (ie current routes requiring a hub stop)
3. Proprietary Apps will be leveraged significantly (love the flight cancellation scenario example)

Let’s hope Dave doesn’t go cheap on pilot compensation - especially in this tight market where the LCCs and Legacies will be hiring in big numbers for the next decade....

dawgdriver
12-14-2018, 08:20 AM
Interesting. DN has a remarkable record of innovation, finding niches, and exploiting opportunities.

Should be fun to watch. Again.

pangolin
12-21-2018, 09:26 PM
Where do I apply?

Very interesting article. Three best points for me:

1. The A220 will be used flexibly (both short and longer routes)
2. The new airline will not directly compete with JB on routes and it will likely connect city pairs not currently connected with nonstop flights (ie current routes requiring a hub stop)
3. Proprietary Apps will be leveraged significantly (love the flight cancellation scenario example)

Let’s hope Dave doesn’t go cheap on pilot compensation - especially in this tight market where the LCCs and Legacies will be hiring in big numbers for the next decade....

jonnyjetprop
12-26-2018, 04:34 AM
Normally it's the former. Since he's done this before, it may be the later. I'm sure the first couple of classes will be hand picked from friends and former colleagues. Every initial pilot will have to be able to pass effectively a direct entry captain position from a training department that's being heavily scrutinized by the FAA. The FAA lived in my initial class at Orange Air.


Does anyone with experience in start ups know how that usually plays out? Is it a “wink wink, nudge nudge”, “tap on the shoulder” kind of thing? Or should we expect to see a website put together clearly stating compensation and such?

-blink

sailingfun
12-26-2018, 06:15 AM
Keep in mind that Moxy has not ordered any aircraft at this point. The widely reported A220 order is actual a memorandum of understanding and comes at no cost. The are not even tentative orders let alone firm orders where money is put down. If he is going to fly in 2021 that memorandum needs to be converted to firm orders very quickly.

tyler durden
12-31-2018, 03:01 PM
https://skift.com/2018/12/19/david-neeleman-taps-ex-allegiant-air-exec-

David Neeleman has a nose for talent and a track record of surrounding himself with like-minded, successful visionaries. Lukas was great for Allegiant.

HeavenCanWait
01-03-2019, 08:27 AM
https://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/12439647/us-start-up-airline-moxy-confirms-order-for-60-airbus-a220-300s

jcountry
01-03-2019, 03:32 PM
Anyone know where their bases will be?

Triggs
01-03-2019, 03:54 PM
anyone know where their bases will be?

mia gso iwa??

tom11011
01-03-2019, 04:33 PM
Ind cvg bna

redbone
01-03-2019, 06:57 PM
Lch, lft, aex

Fifty50
01-03-2019, 07:25 PM
Anyone know where their bases will be?

*Disclaimer: yes, I know...Wikipedia*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxy_(airline)

Destinations

Moxy will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including:

Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
Gary/Chicago Airport
Hollywood Burbank Airport
Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
Oakland International Airport
Ontario International Airport
Orlando Sanford International Airport
Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
Providence International Airport
St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport
Trenton-Mercer Airport, New Jersey

Maybe? Even Wikipedia says ‘potential’ destinations, so :confused:

dera
01-03-2019, 08:27 PM
*Disclaimer: yes, I know...Wikipedia*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxy_(airline)

Destinations

Moxy will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including:

Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
Gary/Chicago Airport
Hollywood Burbank Airport
Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
Oakland International Airport
Ontario International Airport
Orlando Sanford International Airport
Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
Providence International Airport
St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport
Trenton-Mercer Airport, New Jersey

Maybe? Even Wikipedia says ‘potential’ destinations, so :confused:

A few of those airports don't even have a terminal building.

badflaps
01-04-2019, 05:40 AM
A few of those airports don't even have a terminal building.
Hey, Gary has an old beat up PanAm desk that can be had cheaply.:D

SrfNFly227
01-04-2019, 07:06 AM
Is commuting ever an option for the initial hires at a start up? I would think it would take some time to get jumpseat agreements in place, but I was also too young to be paying attention when JetBlue or Spirit started up.

PotatoChip
01-04-2019, 08:09 AM
A few of those airports don't even have a terminal building.

Which ones??
The only one on that list that doesn't that I know of is GYY.

jonnyjetprop
01-04-2019, 10:12 AM
Is commuting ever an option for the initial hires at a start up? I would think it would take some time to get jumpseat agreements in place, but I was also too young to be paying attention when JetBlue or Spirit started up.

It's fairly easy to get CASS setup. That gives you access to every carrier that doesn't require an agreement. It can takes weeks to months to get the agreements in place at legacy/LCC/prime cargo companies.

CrowneVic
01-04-2019, 12:06 PM
Looks like JB moved closer to acquisition of the A220, as well. 60 each for Moxy and JB.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarcia/2019/01/03/moxy-and-jetblue-place-firm-orders-for-120-airbus-a220-aircraft/#337bf51b7744

friend
01-04-2019, 03:42 PM
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2019/01/u-s--start-up-airline--moxy--confirms-order-for-60-airbus-a220-3.html

jetset
01-04-2019, 04:47 PM
Lch, lft, aex

:D a220 amphib me cher

dera
01-04-2019, 05:30 PM
Which ones??
The only one on that list that doesn't that I know of is GYY.

FRG, the terminal building there is pretty much ready to be torn down.

redbone
01-05-2019, 06:52 AM
:D a220 amphib me cher

Dey put one of dem 220s on floats and I’ll land it rot down the bayou Teeboy

9easy
01-08-2019, 06:17 AM
PIE IWA and SFB are already bursting at capacity, any additional gate space is years away and Allegiant would love to have more room in those three airports..

David Puddy
01-08-2019, 03:48 PM
SGJ (St. Augustine, FL) is ripe for this type of ULCC service. Year-round sunny beaches, plenty of elderly people/snowbirds, a decent terminal (recently used by Via Air for E145 service to CLT) and an 8,000 ft runway. Sure, JAX is nearby, but anyone south of SGJ will want to use it rather than JAX. Allegiant has done a great job with airports like Punta Gorda - no doubt Moxy could use the same strategy so long as the facilities exist.

DarkSideMoon
01-08-2019, 04:47 PM
Which ones??
The only one on that list that doesn't that I know of is GYY.

GYY had service with allegiant a few years back so there has to be some kind of workaround.

David Puddy
02-02-2019, 03:49 PM
Any news???????

captjns
02-02-2019, 04:18 PM
Any news???????

Yeah. Notham is not resigning as Governor of VA.

David Puddy
02-02-2019, 07:08 PM
Yeah. Notham is not resigning as Governor of VA.

He probably won’t get re-elected either...

Prettywhacked1
02-02-2019, 07:12 PM
VA is a single term state for the Governorship.

N/A.

David Puddy
02-03-2019, 05:06 AM
VA is a single term state for the Governorship.

N/A.

Why can’t we have these term limits in Congress and all governorships?

The701Express
02-03-2019, 06:24 AM
Why can’t we have these term limits in Congress and all governorships?

Because term limits don't stop corrupt behavior, force out experienced and effective legislators, speed up the revolving door from politician to lobbying, and gives those lobbyists more sway over new politicians who are just getting familiar with the job and how to legislate.

Campaign finance reform, strong anti-corruption laws, ethics oversight, and fair redistricting are much more effective at making politicians responsive to their constituents and legislate for them instead of special interest groups with deep pockets.

hilltopflyer
02-03-2019, 06:40 AM
Because term limits don't stop corrupt behavior, force out experienced and effective legislators, speed up the revolving door from politician to lobbying, and gives those lobbyists more sway over new politicians who are just getting familiar with the job and how to legislate.

Campaign finance reform, strong anti-corruption laws, ethics oversight, and fair redistricting are much more effective at making politicians responsive to their constituents and legislate for them instead of special interest groups with deep pockets.

And the ones who have been there forever aren’t in lobbies pocket books. Pelosi,
McConnell, Schumer? The list can go on and on.

Excargodog
02-03-2019, 06:53 AM
And the ones who have been there forever aren’t in lobbies pocket books. Pelosi,
McConnell, Schumer? The list can go on and on.

All power corrupts and as the federal government has accreted more and more power to itself, the corruption has worsened.

But the forum is about airlines...., remember?

:rolleyes:

dawgdriver
02-03-2019, 07:47 AM
But the forum is about airlines...., remember?

:rolleyes:

^^^this^^^

Wow.

Fifty50
02-04-2019, 11:06 AM
Back on topic, kinda:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2&i=1000429119037

The link is for the new episode of “How I built this” podcast from NPR. Doesn’t talk about Moxy really at all till the end; however, you do get to hear how Neeleman grew up in the airline biz as a serial entrepreneur.

dxBrian
02-04-2019, 11:18 AM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Triggs
02-04-2019, 04:47 PM
And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

PM sent


<filler>

Hellafo
02-04-2019, 09:34 PM
And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Curious on your thoughts, shoot me the DM too.
Hella curious

friend
02-04-2019, 09:50 PM
I would also be interested to know what airlines you might think it would be PM me also

Maingear
02-05-2019, 01:43 AM
And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Probably Transstaes, Gojet, and Compass.

Hellafo
02-05-2019, 01:37 PM
Probably Transstaes, Gojet, and Compass.

After working for the Hula's circus for 6 years.....nice joke

Maingear
02-05-2019, 03:00 PM
After working for the Hula's circus for 6 years.....nice joke

They are all prime to not have any more flying to do soon.

ItnStln
02-06-2019, 07:08 AM
PM sent


<filler>

Please PM me the list as well.

Excargodog
02-06-2019, 03:25 PM
They are all prime to not have any more flying to do soon.

GoJet just got a 50 plane 10 year contract with United to fly CRJ550s.

n606tw
02-08-2019, 04:42 AM
I think they are waiting the next economic recession to start the operation! Lol



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