Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : [1] 2

View Full Version : Moxy Airways


David Puddy
06-18-2018, 06:58 AM
Not sure if this has already been discussed. Looks like he is in the funding stage. What is the proposed aircraft type? CS300s....

Read below:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says


skydisaster
06-18-2018, 07:00 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CaptCoolHand
06-18-2018, 07:23 AM
Neeleman is a great starter, but a bad finisher.

So this is Alligiant with jb flare?


PasserOGas
06-18-2018, 07:32 AM
Neeleman is a great starter, but a bad finisher.

So this is Alligiant with jb flare?

I thought jetblue was Allegant with jb flair.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 07:54 AM
New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 07:58 AM
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our fleet review and contract vote coming soon.

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 08:14 AM
New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.

I don't think finding pilots, at least not initial guys filling the left seat, will be a problem...plenty of regional guys will jump at the opportunity to get larger-than-regional jet PIC, and it will likely pay more than a regional captain makes. Furthermore, the notion of getting in on the ground floor with the possibility of winning the seniority lottery in organic growth or via an acquisition will attract people. Throw in the fact that they'll likely have regional hiring standards, ie 1500 hour CFIs for the right seat, I doubt they'll have any trouble filling both seats, unfortunately. Guess we will see.

METO Guido
06-18-2018, 08:29 AM
According to the article, he wants 100M for start up, the same number raised to bankroll JetBlue 20 years earlier?

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 08:49 AM
I don't think finding pilots, at least not initial guys filling the left seat, will be a problem...plenty of regional guys will jump at the opportunity to get larger-than-regional jet PIC, and it will likely pay more than a regional captain makes. Furthermore, the notion of getting in on the ground floor with the possibility of winning the seniority lottery in organic growth or via an acquisition will attract people. Throw in the fact that they'll likely have regional hiring standards, ie 1500 hour CFIs for the right seat, I doubt they'll have any trouble filling both seats, unfortunately. Guess we will see.

Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option, no good reason to take a bunch or risks for a stepping stone unless you know the established majors won't be calling... ever. Safer to just sit tight at your regional in most cases. If you just have to GTFO now, the ACMI's probably pay better, with no worse stability.

The FAA will require experienced CA's for the left seat, they will not let a startup hire 2500-hour regional FO's and put them in the left seat of a new-design narrowbody on a new certificate. Startups typically also hire experienced pilots for the right seat initially, on the premise that they will upgrade very quickly.

His B-Plan is going to need plenty of compensation for pilots. Or he's planning on staffing exclusively with pilots who have very significant black marks, ie felons, drunks, or documented incompetents, which would not bode well for safety (reference that learjet at TEB).

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 08:51 AM
According to the article, he wants 100M for start up, the same number raised to bankroll JetBlue 20 years earlier?

Won't need near the real estate/gates/landing fees that he needed with JetBlue if he's going point to point in secondary markets. I have to assume their overhead will be significantly lower. Fuel costs (or at least fuel quantity) will be significantly lower than his previous venture with significantly lower CASM. And I have to assume his financing terms for the 60 C series were probably pretty solid. Will be interesting to see how it works out.

Temocil27
06-18-2018, 08:56 AM
At least Moxy has a vision. The current JetBlue has very little in common with the airline Neeleman started. I imagine he wants to distance himself as much as possible from the current company.

GreatStory
06-18-2018, 09:06 AM
Good luck getting gate space. This thing is dead already.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 09:08 AM
Good luck getting gate space. This thing is dead already.

As somebody mentioned, there's plenty of gate capacity in small-ish/medium sized towns across the country... and they'd probably be happy to build more if it will attract air service.

BeatNavy
06-18-2018, 09:09 AM
Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option, no good reason to take a bunch or risks for a stepping stone unless you know the established majors won't be calling. Safer to just sit tight at your regional in most cases.

The FAA will require experienced CA's for the left seat, they will not let a startup hire 2500 hour regional FO's and put them in the left seat of a new-design narrowbody on a new certificate. Startups typically also hire experienced pilots for the right seat initially, on the premise that they will upgrade very quickly.

His B-Plan is going to need plenty of compensation for pilots.

Guessing there are plenty of guys with 3k-5k hours (1k-2k+ TPIC), at regionals waiting on majors to call. Drop the degree requirement (likely won't be one at Moxy) and that opens a door for guys with no degree who are otherwise qualified. I've never seen any "start-up airline pilot minimums" in any FAA rules, and I'd venture to say that a current 121 captain, who has an FAA ATP, and who passes an FAA type ride in the C Series, is qualified in the FAA's eyes to act as a captain at a pt 121 airline, start-up or otherwise. I'd also venture to guess that Neeleman will pay Moxy CAs more than any regional will pay their CAs. If I was at a regional waiting for a major to call, I would possibly gamble with a start up while waiting, depending on the pay/benefits/bases/etc. The seniority, pay, and career expectations likely exceed that of any regional, with the exception of a guy having a possible near-term flow. And for the guys going straight to the left seat of Moxy, waiting for a big 6 to call, to then go be an FO again, may not be appealing. For guys in their first year at a regional, they could go be early FOs at Moxy with a potential quick upgrade, and make probably more money than they are making at said regional in either seat.

Guess we will see in a couple years how it plays out.

AYLflyer
06-18-2018, 09:10 AM
I swear if we announce an E2 after this...

CS is clearly the way to go.

iahflyr
06-18-2018, 09:48 AM
With the big 6 consolidating down to the big 3, I think it’s very likely to see some upstart competition on the Domestic side. We’ve already seen it happen on the International side

SUX4U
06-18-2018, 10:01 AM
Nobody is going to take that deal if Big-Six is even a realistic option

Big Six? Heard of Big Three, even Big 4 with SWA. Big Six is new to me. Who falls under that umbrella?

Bluedriver
06-18-2018, 10:04 AM
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our ***fleet review*** and contract vote coming soon.

Soon? I think they moved fleet review to the shelf to finish up the sharklet retrofit of all our A320s.

METO Guido
06-18-2018, 10:07 AM
Won't need near the real estate/gates/landing fees that he needed with JetBlue if he's going point to point in secondary markets. I have to assume their overhead will be significantly lower. Fuel costs (or at least fuel quantity) will be significantly lower than his previous venture with significantly lower CASM. And I have to assume his financing terms for the 60 C series were probably pretty solid. Will be interesting to see how it works out.
So they're in talks with Chinese lessor for 18 delivered 2020-2022. Delta got 75 100's at a 65% MSRP reduction for between 25-27M each. The CS300 lists north of 70M. Just can't wrap my head around extending that kind of credit to an upstart when the odds are so long. Another JetBlue? Okey dokey.

Softpayman
06-18-2018, 10:28 AM
I swear if we announce an E2 after this...

CS is clearly the way to go.

You have about as much say in it as your favorite baggage handler. CS is not clearly the way to go, you have no idea what deal is on the table. Ur job is to show up for a new type if that's what you choose.

O2pilot
06-18-2018, 12:09 PM
Called “Moxy”. Will JB pilots be flying these planes? Or just codeshare.

JetBlue spinoff Moxy Airways has ordered 60 Bombardier C Series: report | Montreal Gazette (http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/jetblue-spinoff-moxy-airways-has-ordered-60-bombardier-c-series-report)

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 12:10 PM
JetBlue raising funds for a new Low- Cost Airline called Moxy Airways. Orders for 60 CS300s are in place to start flight in 2020. I guess management really likes the CSeries and sees their potential.

Is this where the profit is going? Are they trying to start another Airline and slowly unwind JetBlue Airways as we know it like Boeing did with their business?

OR

Is it just a scare to get the TA voted in?

Link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says

Smooth at FL450
06-18-2018, 12:14 PM
big six? Heard of big three, even big 4 with swa. Big six is new to me. Who falls under that umbrella?

ual, dal, aa, swa, ups, & fdx

O2pilot
06-18-2018, 12:15 PM
Watch us merge in 5 years, and all the guys rushing to this startup win the seniority lottery and slide in to the top of our list. That'd be my luck. Interesting timing with our fleet review and contract vote coming soon.

I’ll bet some junior JB guys leave and go be initial cadre Captains and then after they merger with JB doing very nicely in a seniority integration.

airbus300
06-18-2018, 12:24 PM
My guess is that it is a totally seperate company that will probably do well. Might be a good stock to keep an eye on.

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 12:27 PM
My guess is that it is a totally seperate company that will probably do well. Might be a good stock to keep an eye on.

It probably is, but what if it's a move to start a different company without Union? Shrink JetBlue as soon as Moxy is doing well? It's an interesting move.

BunkerF16
06-18-2018, 12:27 PM
JetBlue raising funds for a new Low- Cost Airline called Moxy Airways. Orders for 60 CS300s are in place to start flight in 2020. I guess management really likes the CSeries and sees their potential.

Is this where the profit is going? Are they trying to start another Airline and slowly unwind JetBlue Airways as we know it like Boeing did with their business?

OR

Is it just a scare to get the TA voted in?

Link: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-18/jetblue-founder-raising-funds-for-new-u-s-airline-report-says


No. Neeleman isn't associated with JB and wouldn't be angling to help the company out at the pilots' expense.

Besides, JB doesn't need any help with getting this pilot group to vote for this POS TA. They hired the "right" pilots all these years. It'll pass with 65-70% yes votes. Minimum.

GuppyPuppy
06-18-2018, 12:38 PM
Called “Moxy”. Will JB pilots be flying these planes? Or just codeshare.

JetBlue spinoff Moxy Airways has ordered 60 Bombardier C Series: report | Montreal Gazette (http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/jetblue-spinoff-moxy-airways-has-ordered-60-bombardier-c-series-report)

Not a spin-off.

Gup

CaptCoolHand
06-18-2018, 12:41 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

CaptCoolHand
06-18-2018, 12:41 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 01:10 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

I hope it doesn't. Good for discussion though.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 01:11 PM
Guessing there are plenty of guys with 3k-5k hours (1k-2k+ TPIC), at regionals waiting on majors to call. Drop the degree requirement (likely won't be one at Moxy) and that opens a door for guys with no degree who are otherwise qualified. I've never seen any "start-up airline pilot minimums" in any FAA rules, and I'd venture to say that a current 121 captain, who has an FAA ATP, and who passes an FAA type ride in the C Series, is qualified in the FAA's eyes to act as a captain at a pt 121 airline, start-up or otherwise.

That's what I said, the FAA will want CA's with PREVIOUS experience, who are in the ballpark for the established majors (who will be calling a lot of folks about the time this thing is ready to fly).

Spirit can hire regional FO's with 2,000 hours and no PIC... Moxy cannot initially.

There is no set regulatory requirement for CA experience at a startup, but that's part of what goes into issuing a 121 certificate... who are they issuing it to? If the FAA isn't happy with the initial cadre, they will not issue the cert. To make matters worse, most of the initial cadre will need to be LCA as well, and some of them will need previous LCA experience to prime the pump.

If they decide the be the "non college degree airline" that might get them enough of an initial cadre.

Or maybe not... how many senior regional lifers are going to give up massive seniority for a startup with an uncertain fate?


I'd also venture to guess that Neeleman will pay Moxy CAs more than any regional will pay their CAs. If I was at a regional waiting for a major to call, I would possibly gamble with a start up while waiting, depending on the pay/benefits/bases/etc. The seniority, pay, and career expectations likely exceed that of any regional, with the exception of a guy having a possible near-term flow.

That's what I was saying, he's going to have to come in pretty darn high to get the experience he needs for initial cadre. He has to offset the startup risk, at a time when stable majors are hiring many and paying very well.

Only way around it might be to hire the initial cadre at a contractually guaranteed level of compensation, and then set a B scale for new hires later on. The usual startup trick of promising more later is probably not going to work in this climate. It worked in the past because airlines were going BK, and you could find CA's from L-US, Indy Air, Midwest, ACMIs, etc.

And for the guys going straight to the left seat of Moxy, waiting for a big 6 to call, to then go be an FO again, may not be appealing.

Maybe. No one will have longevity though. Right now 20+ year regional, fractional, and ACMI CA's are leaving for the big six.


For guys in their first year at a regional, they could go be early FOs at Moxy with a potential quick upgrade, and make probably more money than they are making at said regional in either seat.

I'm sure many would, we see that right now with the ULCC's.

But with ULCC's, LCC's and even some legacies struggling with applicant quality, it's going to be even tougher for a startup.

nuball5
06-18-2018, 01:28 PM
I hope it doesn't. Good for discussion though.


The only thing really to discuss is how long would it take for JetBlue to receive their first CSeries (if they go that route), if Airbus/Bombardier are at capacity filling orders for other airlines.

MGMTiswatchingU
06-18-2018, 01:34 PM
The only thing really to discuss is how long would it take for JetBlue to receive their first CSeries (if they go that route), if Airbus/Bombardier are at capacity filling orders for other airlines.

Next thing I'd guess is JetBlue might really see the opportunity in the CSeries and put an order in for here, instead of the E2s. If "Molly" can do the smaller airports with the CS300s, why not JetBlue?

Triggs
06-18-2018, 02:40 PM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 03:03 PM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

That would be easier. As long as enough CA's and instructors are willing to come with it. The paper can be sold, but the pilots don't HAVE to go with it...

O2pilot
06-18-2018, 04:14 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

Why aren’t they focusing on growing JB instead of starting a shadow airline. Its all the same people running this. Maybe not a “spinoff” but that gets them around scope possibly.

David Puddy
06-18-2018, 05:20 PM
Next thing I'd guess is JetBlue might really see the opportunity in the CSeries and put an order in for here, instead of the E2s. If "Molly" can do the smaller airports with the CS300s, why not JetBlue?

The CS300 is very versatile airplane - and Neeleman knows it. The E2 has fewer seats, less range and it can’t compare ergonomically to the CSeries. What’s remarkable is that Neeleman becomes a big proponent of the CSeries while simultaneously operating one of the largest E190 fleets out there with Azul in Brazil (and JB before that). I am betting Embraer ain’t too happy considering both JB and Spirit are evaluating both the CSeries and the E2 these days. This speculative order for 60 airframes is a BIG vote of confidence in the CS300 and what it can do...

Softpayman
06-18-2018, 05:27 PM
The CS300 is very versatile airplane - and Neeleman knows it. The E2 has fewer seats, less range and it can’t compare ergonomically to the CSeries. What’s remarkable is that Neeleman becomes a big proponent of the CSeries while simultaneously operating one of the largest E190 fleets out there with Azul in Brazil (and JB before that). I am betting Embraer ain’t too happy considering both JB and Spirit are evaluating both the CSeries and the E2 these days. This speculative order for 60 airframes is a BIG vote of confidence in the CS300 and what it can do...

I’d say the decision was between the CS300 and A320 NEO.... those to me are as comparable as E195 and CS300 are.

hilltopflyer
06-18-2018, 05:40 PM
Why aren’t they focusing on growing JB instead of starting a shadow airline. Its all the same people running this. Maybe not a “spinoff” but that gets them around scope possibly.

It’s the old jetblue people. Not current b6

dawgdriver
06-18-2018, 05:42 PM
That would be easier. As long as enough CA's and instructors are willing to come with it. The paper can be sold, but the pilots don't HAVE to go with it...

Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

rickair7777
06-18-2018, 05:47 PM
Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

If they offered very good QOL options, they could attract plenty of pilots, especially under 50. For a hard 21 days off/month, I'd consider it and take a pay cut too. Don't care what they do to me for the other ten days.

David Puddy
06-18-2018, 05:56 PM
I’d say the decision was between the CS300 and A320 NEO.... those to me are as comparable as E195 and CS300 are.

Neeleman knows a lot about the A320 NEO - Azul in Brazil operates plenty of them in addition to a large fleet of E195s. The CS300 has a better CASM and it is super versatile in terms of the airports it can serve.

SWISS is so pleased with the CSeries it compiled this list of facts/figures about its experience with it:

https://blog.swiss.com/en/2018/05/facts-figures-bombardier-c-series/

Qotsaautopilot
06-18-2018, 06:19 PM
They will have zero issues finding pilots. Expressjet is about to implode as part of skywest’s long term union busting plan. That’s at least 1500 pilots. Eastern reboot found plenty and from the ones I’ve talked to that came to Spirit, many would’ve stayed at eastern if it hadn’t tanked

Speedbird2263
06-18-2018, 08:11 PM
I wonder if Azura Airways, the airline company he registered in Connecticut last year, is related to Moxy. Perhaps even one and the same, only time will tell.

Bozo the pilot
06-18-2018, 08:16 PM
Did you original posters even read the article or even know who Neeleman is?

This has nothing to do with jb...

Na- Theyre too busy grinding axes and looking for black helicopters. :rolleyes:

sailingfun
06-19-2018, 04:13 AM
Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

Probably thinking about the millions in stock they hold!

rickair7777
06-19-2018, 05:18 AM
They will have zero issues finding pilots. Expressjet is about to implode as part of skywest’s long term union busting plan. That’s at least 1500 pilots. Eastern reboot found plenty and from the ones I’ve talked to that came to Spirit, many would’ve stayed at eastern if it hadn’t tanked

If the timing's right. But if he's not ready to hire, those 1500 will get snapped up within a year or less elsewhere (except maybe the worst scrapings from the bottom of the barrel, but that's not what you want at a startup anyway).

I never said he can't find pilots, I said he'll have to pay to get the ones he needs (experienced CA's and LCAs) to take a chance on a startup.

captjns
06-19-2018, 05:51 AM
The man ha a proven track record in the U.S. and S.A. It’s a gamble... for sure. However... think about the seniority numbers... 15,000+ with a legacy? Or a range from 01 to 100 with an upstart that has the possibility of growing. You have carriers in the U.S. operating into secondary markets with success. Yeah some, for example Skybus, Independence, People’s Express 2.0 folded.

But at the end of the day, being 15,000 on the seniority list runs the risk of being furloughed, during tough times, for many years... many are too young to remember the ‘70s.

ULCC may not carry the same glory as AA, DAL, UAL, etc... but hey they said SWA, Allegiant, Spirit would never make it... and how are they doing today:rolleyes:?

David Puddy
06-19-2018, 08:51 AM
The man ha a proven track record in the U.S. and S.A. It’s a gamble... for sure. However... think about the seniority numbers... 15,000+ with a legacy? Or a range from 01 to 100 with an upstart that has the possibility of growing. You have carriers in the U.S. operating into secondary markets with success. Yeah some, for example Skybus, Independence, People’s Express 2.0 folded.

But at the end of the day, being 15,000 on the seniority list runs the risk of being furloughed, during tough times, for many years... many are too young to remember the ‘70s.

ULCC may not carry the same glory as AA, DAL, UAL, etc... but hey they said SWA, Allegiant, Spirit would never make it... and how are they doing today:rolleyes:?

That’s true - Neeleman is “bankable” because he has a track record (Morris Air, Westjet, JetBlue and Azul in Brazil). Plus, the former CEO of Air Canada is on board as an investor as well - lending more credibility.

Again, I personally find it interesting that Neeleman chose the CS300 despite being the biggest operator of Embraer E190/95s in the world through Azul and JetBlue. If that isn’t a confidence booster in the CSeries program before the big Farnborough Airshow in July I don’t know what is...

SUX4U
06-19-2018, 08:59 AM
ual, dal, aa, swa, ups, & fdx

Gotcha! Thank you.

MaCrOs
06-19-2018, 09:01 AM
Wanna attract pilots? Just announce hot flight attendant (females) wearing Go-Go boots and tight shorts. Don't laugh, it worked at SW for years! Many passed up legacies for the 'culture'. Can't imagine what those guys must be thinking now. lol.

They’re thinking “I’m making $300 an hour flying 737 with super productive trips and top of the line contract. Life is awesome.”

rickair7777
06-19-2018, 11:17 AM
Again, I personally find it interesting that Neeleman chose the CS300 despite being the biggest operator of Embraer E190/95s in the world through Azul and JetBlue. If that isn’t a confidence booster in the CSeries program before the big Farnborough Airshow in July I don’t know what is...

I doubt he would have gone there is airbus had not bought the whole program. Actually they were given the program.

Varsity
06-19-2018, 02:11 PM
It's been awhile since someone has attempted a startup.

rickair7777
06-19-2018, 05:39 PM
It's been awhile since someone has attempted a startup.

Funny thing is, I was talking to my wife last week and wondering about when another one would pop up.

Virgalask330
06-19-2018, 07:54 PM
Funny thing is, I was talking to my wife last week and wondering about when another one would pop up.

Ok so maybe I’m not the only JFK Alaska pilot looking at this startup...ha

Pogey Bait
06-19-2018, 11:57 PM
That’s true - Neeleman is “bankable” because he has a track record (Morris Air, Westjet, JetBlue and Azul in Brazil). Plus, the former CEO of Air Canada is on board as an investor as well - lending more credibility.

Again, I personally find it interesting that Neeleman chose the CS300 despite being the biggest operator of Embraer E190/95s in the world through Azul and JetBlue. If that isn’t a confidence booster in the CSeries program before the big Farnborough Airshow in July I don’t know what is...

Ya go check out the economics on this plane, SWA just wishes it was it was a 737. Thing can go coast to coast and anywhere in between.

SmitteyB
06-20-2018, 02:06 AM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

I don’t believe the FAA looks very favorable on this. I think the law changed after NWA bought the Independence Air ticket and kept it alive by keeping a single RJ running until it ultimately added E175s and renamed it Compass.

It is at the very least much much harder to do than it ever was before. That is why you never saw Pinnacle or Delta sell the Mesaba OR Colgan 121 Certificates.

rickair7777
06-20-2018, 06:19 AM
Ok so maybe I’m not the only JFK Alaska pilot looking at this startup...ha

You guys are probably the only pool of experienced major airline pilots who might be on the market for a startup right now.

nkbux
06-20-2018, 06:41 AM
With all due respect... and I’m really not flaming...why not start over at B6 or TRY and get in at UAL or DL for an NYC base...I know it’s a massive pay cut but it can’t be more miserable than commuting to sfo...I’d sleep better at night being on the bottom of JetBlue’s list than I would at a start up

Virgalask330
06-20-2018, 09:55 AM
With all due respect... and I’m really not flaming...why not start over at B6 or TRY and get in at UAL or DL for an NYC base...I know it’s a massive pay cut but it can’t be more miserable than commuting to sfo...I’d sleep better at night being on the bottom of JetBlue’s list than I would at a start up

I agree with you, but it’s fun to toy around with the idea.

windrider
06-20-2018, 12:10 PM
Hmmm...60 planes? We have 60, I mean 58 E-190s. Why 60?? We sell off our 60 and buy them. Big plan unveiled!

CaptCoolHand
06-21-2018, 06:51 AM
Hmmm...60 planes? We have 60, I mean 58 E-190s. Why 60?? We sell off our 60 and buy them. Big plan unveiled!

56... don't forget blueginsu in RDU... SLICE AND DICE!

dawgdriver
06-21-2018, 09:04 AM
I agree with you, but it’s fun to toy around with the idea.

Yes it is. I'm sure there's a pool of interested applicants who may be willing to take a risk at a fun, fresh start-up with new ideas, rapid growth, upgrades and seniority. Well managed, nimble, unconstrained by expensive, burdensome contracts, it might succeed in carving out a niche. Or, like many others, it may fail. The question becomes the degree of risk exposure and whether it's outweighed by the potential rewards. Certainly not for the majority of qualified pilots, most of which are looking at the benefits of a mature, stable carrier with lucrative contracts.

Neeleman is not a newcomer to this industry. His plan to attract pilots will likely target those uninterested in a career seen by some as working for a faceless, tired, old, boring, politically correct, legacy culture. How he sells it will determine the degree of interest and participation. Hopefully he's getting sound advice and is aware of the dramatic change in landscape; tough sell given the opportunities and advancement opportunities elsewhere. As far as pilots are concerned, he will not be able to take advantage of what new entrants have historically enjoyed: cheap wages. A low ball 'entry-level' compensation package will not draw the numbers he'll be looking to attract.

rickair7777
06-21-2018, 10:54 AM
With all due respect... and I’m really not flaming...why not start over at B6 or TRY and get in at UAL or DL for an NYC base...I know it’s a massive pay cut but it can’t be more miserable than commuting to sfo...I’d sleep better at night being on the bottom of JetBlue’s list than I would at a start up


Might work out in the long run. But some of those guys have mortgages based on CA pay or senior FO pay. Hard to tell the wife you have to sell the house. You could make the case for DL/UA, a little harder for JB.

sflpilot
06-21-2018, 02:36 PM
They will have zero issues finding pilots. Expressjet is about to implode as part of skywest’s long term union busting plan. That’s at least 1500 pilots. Eastern reboot found plenty and from the ones I’ve talked to that came to Spirit, many would’ve stayed at eastern if it hadn’t tanked

What's going on with XJT? Are they actually going to close the entire place.

Qotsaautopilot
06-22-2018, 07:08 AM
What's going on with XJT? Are they actually going to close the entire place.

That’s the rumor at least. When 25yr lifers leave for $55/hr and commute you know it’s bad

nkbux
06-22-2018, 05:57 PM
Might work out in the long run. But some of those guys have mortgages based on CA pay or senior FO pay. Hard to tell the wife you have to sell the house. You could make the case for DL/UA, a little harder for JB.

Very true and living in the northeast doesn’t help the scenario at all...high real estate costs and insane property taxes...hard to live on 60k even if it’s only for a year...

Desert Sky
06-29-2018, 12:03 AM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale
I can't help to think that Allegiant Air will be spun-off/sold from Allegiant Travel Company and be used to start this Moxy venture. Allegiant Air is virtually the same biz plan and is turn-key.

dawgdriver
06-29-2018, 08:17 AM
I can't help to think that Allegiant Air will be spun-off/sold from Allegiant Travel Company and be used to start this Moxy venture. Allegiant Air is virtually the same biz plan and is turn-key.

Same business plan? How so? Unlike G4, Moxie is planning DAILY service to smaller airports between big cities. Likely to target more of a mix of business class and leisure then Allegiant, who's entire business plan is focused on leisure travel, with profits largely dependent on ancillary sales (hotel rooms, shows, rental cars,...Elvis glasses).

Turn key? So, get rid of the 60 orders for new C series, (like Neeleman did with JetBlue) probably at give-away introductory leases,...and use (mostly) old Allegiant airbii?

Then take on burdensome, inflexible, costly labor contracts, thus negating the few advantages of a new startup? Finally, the $100M he's hoping to raise wont put a dent in G4's market cap of $2.2B.

I don't see it, but hey, I'm just a pilot. That said, if I had a dime for every merger envisioned by a pilot…

David Puddy
06-29-2018, 08:53 AM
Wouldn’t be surprised if we hear more about Moxy at Farnborough in July. Neeleman has some influential investors backing him as well.

Aero1900
07-18-2018, 06:31 AM
Just saw a quick story on the news about Moxy, although they didn't call it Moxy.

Story said they held an investor meeting at the airshow, and reported that the airline will fly into smaller airports like Trenton, NJ and Providence, RI. Free wifi and premium seating.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 06:37 AM
Just saw a quick story on the news about Moxy, although they didn't call it Moxy.

Story said they held an investor meeting at the airshow, and reported that the airline will fly into smaller airports like Trenton, NJ and Providence, RI. Free wifi and premium seating.

Hmmmmmm.

Looks like he is trying to go with the original SWA plan.

ReserveCA
07-18-2018, 07:54 AM
Moxy......when F9 gets released and a strike occurs....wide open route structure for the scab airline

hilltopflyer
07-18-2018, 08:23 AM
Moxy......when F9 gets released and a strike occurs....wide open route structure for the scab airline

If it’s going to take three years for frontier to get released I’m scared for them.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 10:18 AM
They won’t get released.

No airline ever will again.

Airline strikes cannot ever be allowed. People love their $53 fares, and politicians know it.

sflpilot
07-21-2018, 05:22 PM
They won’t get released.

No airline ever will again.

Airline strikes cannot ever be allowed. People love their $53 fares, and politicians know it.

Probably true. Looks like they won't even get a match of Spirit rates.

David Puddy
09-21-2018, 03:57 PM
Here’s the latest about Moxy:

https://skift.com/2018/09/21/jetblue-founder-sees-his-startup-as-tech-company-that-happens-to-fly-planes/

David Puddy
09-21-2018, 04:10 PM
Getting some more details about his plans. Moxy is not the official name - just the working name. Curious to understand what he means about “innovative ways to recruit pilots.”

Sounds like the performance of the CS300/A220 also really convinced him to get back in the LCC game in the US...

Here’s the article:

https://skift.com/2018/09/21/jetblue-founder-sees-his-startup-as-tech-company-that-happens-to-fly-planes/

Sounds like his plans are coming together.

Beaverbeliever
09-21-2018, 11:53 PM
From reading his words, here is what it looks like to me:
-Point-to-point on routes with no competition. This means his price competition is with airlines that would need to operate 2 legs at least, which is obviously more expensive, so even at a 30% discount (in his words), they are still making a healthy profit. These routes are also going to be thin, thus the A220 being the answer metal-wise.
-Automated ticketing and customer service via the website and phone app, saving $$$. I'm guessing ancillary income to be a major part as well. Want to print your boarding pass at the airport? It's gonna cost you. Want to pick your seat? It's gonna cost you. Want to bring on a carry on? It's gonna cost you.
-Recruiting low hour pilots from regionals around the time they are upgrade eligible, giving them 121 experience, but being a stepping stone for the legacies. I expect pilot pay would represent a middle ground between regional and major as well, but the major benefit would be to get a type rating that will be in use at Delta (and perhaps others) in the near future.

sailingfun
09-22-2018, 02:53 AM
From reading his words, here is what it looks like to me:
-Point-to-point on routes with no competition. This means his price competition is with airlines that would need to operate 2 legs at least, which is obviously more expensive, so even at a 30% discount (in his words), they are still making a healthy profit. These routes are also going to be thin, thus the A220 being the answer metal-wise.
-Automated ticketing and customer service via the website and phone app, saving $$$. I'm guessing ancillary income to be a major part as well. Want to print your boarding pass at the airport? It's gonna cost you. Want to pick your seat? It's gonna cost you. Want to bring on a carry on? It's gonna cost you.
-Recruiting low hour pilots from regionals around the time they are upgrade eligible, giving them 121 experience, but being a stepping stone for the legacies. I expect pilot pay would represent a middle ground between regional and major as well, but the major benefit would be to get a type rating that will be in use at Delta (and perhaps others) in the near future.

The majors don’t care about type ratings. He will recruit pilots with stock options with at least a 5 year vesting while paying actual wages well below market value. Keeps the pilots around for five years and tends to keep them under his thumb to push the stock price higher.

penaltybox
09-22-2018, 06:58 AM
From reading his words, here is what it looks like to me:
-Point-to-point on routes with no competition. This means his price competition is with airlines that would need to operate 2 legs at least, which is obviously more expensive, so even at a 30% discount (in his words), they are still making a healthy profit. These routes are also going to be thin, thus the A220 being the answer metal-wise.
-Automated ticketing and customer service via the website and phone app, saving $$$. I'm guessing ancillary income to be a major part as well. Want to print your boarding pass at the airport? It's gonna cost you. Want to pick your seat? It's gonna cost you. Want to bring on a carry on? It's gonna cost you.
-Recruiting low hour pilots from regionals around the time they are upgrade eligible, giving them 121 experience, but being a stepping stone for the legacies. I expect pilot pay would represent a middle ground between regional and major as well, but the major benefit would be to get a type rating that will be in use at Delta (and perhaps others) in the near future.

PIC from a regional is a lot more valuable than a A220 type.

Packrat
09-23-2018, 08:42 AM
I wonder how the B6 pilots are going to feel about getting undercut by their former founder. Now they know how we felt. They'll love taking the Moxy boys to work on their jumpseats.

jcountry
09-23-2018, 12:35 PM
I bet he will look for foreign pilots on visas as FOs. Probably try and get some waiver on the mins.

captjns
09-23-2018, 01:06 PM
I bet he will look for foreign pilots on visas as FOs. Probably try and get some waiver on the mins.

How much you willing to bet? I’m sure they’ll be number of takers.

Std Deviation
09-23-2018, 01:57 PM
Curious to understand what he means about “innovative ways to recruit.”

Combination of bitcoin and Amazon gift cards?

blinkpilot182
10-15-2018, 09:07 AM
I’m a Captain on a heavy for an ACMI who definitely has my eye on this. If they are looking to start operations around 2020-2021 then I imagine they’ll be assembling an initial cadre in the near future. My shot in the dark would be as soon as 6 months to as late as 12-18 months. Does anyone with experience in start ups know how that usually plays out? Is it a “wink wink, nudge nudge”, “tap on the shoulder” kind of thing? Or should we expect to see a website put together clearly stating compensation and such?

-blink

CAirBear
10-15-2018, 01:14 PM
I’m a Captain on a heavy for an ACMI who definitely has my eye on this. If they are looking to start operations around 2020-2021 then I imagine they’ll be assembling an initial cadre in the near future. My shot in the dark would be as soon as 6 months to as late as 12-18 months. Does anyone with experience in start ups know how that usually plays out? Is it a “wink wink, nudge nudge”, “tap on the shoulder” kind of thing? Or should we expect to see a website put together clearly stating compensation and such?

-blink

Very good question! I have been wondering this as well.

captjns
10-15-2018, 04:47 PM
Very good question! I have been wondering this as well.

Generally, the founders of the operation will seek the advice from those who’ve had previous experience, Part 119 types, working towards getting an airline certified. An application, to start the process going, will be filed with the DOT, and FAA to see if those involved are viable for the operation. From that point it’s anyone’s guess who the management/119 team will proceed. Its quite a lengthy process to get the “OK” from the FAA/DOT to proceed with the application process.

Certification is dependent on the resources to get the airline certified, and the CMO in the FSDO to be assigned to the certification process.

Varsity
10-17-2018, 10:25 AM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.

jcountry
10-17-2018, 10:57 AM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.

Are there any privately owned regionals left?

Excargodog
10-17-2018, 11:22 AM
Are there any privately owned regionals left?

Privately owned by holding companies are not uncommon

Skywest
ExpreesJet
Compass
TSA
GoJet

Among others

Notarealpilot
10-17-2018, 11:32 AM
Smart way to keep their payrates down they could offer pay scales $.50 on the dollar of regular C-series carriers and the regional lifers would vote yes. Along with all the savings of having a turn key operation.

WillFlyForSpam
10-17-2018, 12:54 PM
Are there any privately owned regionals left?

Island Air’s is for sale

PosNhold
10-17-2018, 01:00 PM
Silver Airways is also privately owned

SilentLurker
10-17-2018, 02:28 PM
Air Wisconsin.... only true privately held regional carrier remaining. Very wealthy overlords.

Doubtful a regional carrier would be bought to bring the new carrier to life. It’s not David Neeleman style.

Not one of his startups: Airline creation started with purchasing a Regional carrier.

Morris Air
WestJet
JetBlue Airways
Azul (Brazilian Airlines).

Even as TAP Air Portugal co-owner, he did not dab into purchasing regionals.

FlyPurdue
10-17-2018, 02:34 PM
JetSuite X is going through a rapid expansion here in Dallas, and hiring like crazy. This is surprising as they do not currently have any flights that touch the metroplex. That being said, their current strategy seems to be a bit more upmarket than the standard regional...seems like it could possibly align with Moxy...

ItnStln
10-17-2018, 02:49 PM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.

That would make sense if they were buying an E Jet operator and replacing the fleet with the E2.

rickair7777
10-17-2018, 03:14 PM
Doubtful a regional carrier would be bought to bring the new carrier to life. It’s not David Neeleman style.



Obvious disadvantage is inheriting an existing presumably unionized pilot group, which could then ask for and probably get industry-average NB rates... probably not what a startup really wants, since they are all about leveraging and cashing in on low longevity and startup mentality sacrifice. A crusty, bitter, old regional pilot group won't be going for that koolaid...

But in this climate, that might be the only choice to acquire experienced, competent pilots. I saw that as the real show-stopper for a startup right now, but it might work if he "saves" some smaller regional from their inevitable fate.

tom11011
10-18-2018, 01:30 PM
Met someone in Chicago that claimed to be associated with this. Sounds like they are going to buy an existing privately owned regional airline and transition it to 'mainline' aircraft. Also said 'moxy' won't be the airline name. Just used for fund raising.

edit: spoke very vaguely about it. I don't have any additional details.


This would be the most likely scenario in my opinion. It solves all the problems. Find a struggling regional carrier that is shrinking due to pilot attrition, maybe one that doesn't have pay scales based on the number of seats, and transition out of the regional airline business slowly.

At this point, you are adding a new aircraft type to your certificate, slowly adding airplanes and crews with a new business model, all while shutting down the fee for departure model and letting contracts with major airlines just expire.

Beaverbeliever
10-18-2018, 10:08 PM
This would be the most likely scenario in my opinion. It solves all the problems. Find a struggling regional carrier that is shrinking due to pilot attrition, maybe one that doesn't have pay scales based on the number of seats, and transition out of the regional airline business slowly.

At this point, you are adding a new aircraft type to your certificate, slowly adding airplanes and crews with a new business model, all while shutting down the fee for departure model and letting contracts with major airlines just expire.

Sounds like a perfect fate for Compass. Maybe HK already had a better bid than Delta supposedly offered. Compass has a relatively young pilot group that may think of the deal as a savior if the Delta contract is going away.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

sailingfun
10-19-2018, 06:31 AM
Moxy is planned to be a startup with a new operating certificate. He wants a clean sheet airline. Untangling current agreements and disposing of a existing fleet would be far more expensive than starting from scratch with all first year employees. The delivery schedule on the airframes is timed to allow the certification process to be complete before the airframes arrive.

BoJet
10-19-2018, 12:29 PM
Moxy is planned to be a startup with a new operating certificate. He wants a clean sheet airline. Untangling current agreements and disposing of a existing fleet would be far more expensive than starting from scratch with all first year employees. The delivery schedule on the airframes is timed to allow the certification process to be complete before the airframes arrive.

I hope this bottom feeder Neeleman fails miserably with this venture. His M.O. is to start airlines and sell them before the $H!T hits the fan. Now, His whole case for needing a new airline is "No new entrants" in the market. He compares Apples to Oranges to make a sensational argument for his company.
His claim is, USA needs competition because demand has risen while there have been no new Airlines entering service. See: Apples and Oranges. If he was to compare Apples to Apple, he would compare the DEMAND of air travel with the SUPPLY of ASMs. In fact, as of the past couple years, ASM growth has outpaced actual Passenger Miles flown. This is because Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier have been growing at double digit growth rates. The legacy carriers, Southwest, Alaska and Hawaiian are also growing Domestic market significantly.
What this guy does should be criminal. He is nothing more than another Lorenzo or Icahn. He creates new companies with Year 1 labor, new planes, sweetheart deals, no unions ETC. This creates an unfair operating cost advantage. The airline will offer predatory pricing to squeeze into the market and take jobs away from established carriers who offer passengers and employees stability. Sometime before the notes on the aircraft come due, heavy checks need to be performed ($$$), labor groups unionize, etc, He will dump his stock and move on to the next one - Rinse and Repeat.
Don't believe me? First Morris Air then Jetblue then Azul next Moxy. Look at why Jetblue lags the market in yield. They've never had to worry about the costs that every other airline has: Union wages, heavy maintenance costs, aircraft notes etc. So, they've never had to control costs and watch capacity discipline like everybody else. Now they're struggling to catch up with ideas such as Mint, 321LRs etc.

CAirBear
10-19-2018, 04:50 PM
I hope this bottom feeder Neeleman fails miserably with this venture. His M.O. is to start airlines and sell them before the $H!T hits the fan. Now, His whole case for needing a new airline is "No new entrants" in the market. He compares Apples to Oranges to make a sensational argument for his company.
His claim is, USA needs competition because demand has risen while there have been no new Airlines entering service. See: Apples and Oranges. If he was to compare Apples to Apple, he would compare the DEMAND of air travel with the SUPPLY of ASMs. In fact, as of the past couple years, ASM growth has outpaced actual Passenger Miles flown. This is because Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier have been growing at double digit growth rates. The legacy carriers, Southwest, Alaska and Hawaiian are also growing Domestic market significantly.
What this guy does should be criminal. He is nothing more than another Lorenzo or Icahn. He creates new companies with Year 1 labor, new planes, sweetheart deals, no unions ETC. This creates an unfair operating cost advantage. The airline will offer predatory pricing to squeeze into the market and take jobs away from established carriers who offer passengers and employees stability. Sometime before the notes on the aircraft come due, heavy checks need to be performed ($$$), labor groups unionize, etc, He will dump his stock and move on to the next one - Rinse and Repeat.
Don't believe me? First Morris Air then Jetblue then Azul next Moxy. Look at why Jetblue lags the market in yield. They've never had to worry about the costs that every other airline has: Union wages, heavy maintenance costs, aircraft notes etc. So, they've never had to control costs and watch capacity discipline like everybody else. Now they're struggling to catch up with ideas such as Mint, 321LRs etc.

Given that this is not 10 years ago, by the time Moxy starts (24-36 months) he is going to have an extremely difficult time having an airline with anything other than competitive and legitimate pay rates. The days of offering some garbage (old Spirit contract) or current book Frontier are over. It’s not happening.

More and more regionals have “flows” to legacies and your not leaving unless it’s a very good job and commesurate with your Legacy job that’s “in the bag”.

I know there are people that love to say the pilot shortage is BS, but it isn’t. I live in a medium/large sized city in the US and our local corporate flight departments are really starting to see a shortage. It’s not going to get any better.

TransWorld
10-19-2018, 06:26 PM
I know there are people that love to say the pilot shortage is BS, but it isn’t. I live in a medium/large sized city in the US and our local corporate flight departments are really starting to see a shortage. It’s not going to get any better.

Concur. Just a few years ago, a lot of CAs at regionals had 25 years, and were still waiting for the call. Though there are a few like that today (as well as lifers), the CAs with 10 years are frequently getting hired today.

Many pilots who have gotten out during the lost decade and in desk jobs have decided to jump back in. RTP has started up, as has Cadet programs. RJ FO starting pay has doubled.

The hiring boom really hasn’t fully hit. It is grinding away at the supply sources. At some point the shortage really will hit, and the airlines will have to take further, more drastic actions.

We live in interesting times.

jcountry
10-20-2018, 06:24 AM
I don’t think people are understanding what privately held means.

Skyw has stock in the public market. That is not privately held

rickair7777
10-20-2018, 09:50 AM
Given that this is not 10 years ago, by the time Moxy starts (24-36 months) he is going to have an extremely difficult time having an airline with anything other than competitive and legitimate pay rates. The days of offering some garbage (old Spirit contract) or current book Frontier are over. It’s not happening.

More and more regionals have “flows” to legacies and your not leaving unless it’s a very good job and commesurate with your Legacy job that’s “in the bag”.

I know there are people that love to say the pilot shortage is BS, but it isn’t. I live in a medium/large sized city in the US and our local corporate flight departments are really starting to see a shortage. It’s not going to get any better.


Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

tom11011
10-20-2018, 10:57 AM
If the pay is somewhere between regional scales and big 6 scales, people will flock to it from anywhere and everywhere.

sailingfun
10-20-2018, 01:25 PM
Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

The above is simply not true. He will have no trouble finding pilots to staff the operation. He will offer a strong stock option package and wages well above the regionals. There are plenty of experienced pilots at the regionals who have a reason or two they are stuck there. They will flock to join Moxy.

hilltopflyer
10-20-2018, 01:31 PM
If the pay is somewhere between regional scales and big 6 scales, people will flock to it from anywhere and everywhere.

Except any base is going to be a two leg commute or a local person.

rickair7777
10-20-2018, 03:48 PM
The above is simply not true. He will have no trouble finding pilots to staff the operation. He will offer a strong stock option package and wages well above the regionals. There are plenty of experienced pilots at the regionals who have a reason or two they are stuck there. They will flock to join Moxy.

Unless they're stuck at a really bad regional, why risk it? Better wages maybe, but even more risky than a regional in the mid-term. Yeah there will always be people who will go, but a startup is going to be a lot of work. And again, they need LCA, sim guys, and people with certificate experience. The FAA simply won't let them do a startup with the dregs of the regional lifers.

KC135
10-21-2018, 11:40 AM
Given that this is not 10 years ago, by the time Moxy starts (24-36 months) he is going to have an extremely difficult time having an airline with anything other than competitive and legitimate pay rates. The days of offering some garbage (old Spirit contract) or current book Frontier are over. It’s not happening.

More and more regionals have “flows” to legacies and your not leaving unless it’s a very good job and commesurate with your Legacy job that’s “in the bag”.

Unfortunately I disagree. F9 has had no issue with filling classes in 2018. There are plenty of regional applicants that don't have flow. Most know that the early pilots hired at WestJet all became millionaires from the stock options fairly quick. I'm not saying that will repeat but wages higher than a regional is viewed as a career advancement to somebody making regional wages.

sailingfun
10-22-2018, 04:33 AM
Unless they're stuck at a really bad regional, why risk it? Better wages maybe, but even more risky than a regional in the mid-term. Yeah there will always be people who will go, but a startup is going to be a lot of work. And again, they need LCA, sim guys, and people with certificate experience. The FAA simply won't let them do a startup with the dregs of the regional lifers.

Is record starting airlines is excellent. They are either still operating or merged like Morris with SWA. Based on his history it’s low risk with the potential for big rewards.
As far as the FAA if the pilots can pass a check ride they are good to go. The only pilots even hired during the certification process will be management and check airman.

CrowneVic
12-06-2018, 02:57 PM
Anyone have any latest greatest about Moxy? I'm curious as to how things turn out and develop. Not much info out there. Could be interesting.

Big E 757
12-06-2018, 06:01 PM
Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

I hope you are right. But there are pilots taking jobs for $100K to fly a 787 for OSM (NAI). There will be plenty of pilots who fill out an application and explain it away as getting in on the ground floor and talk about a fun “culture”, and being a part of something great. They’ll also have it in the back of their mind that the A220 type will help them get on at Delta.

We are our own worst enemy.

The biggest obstacle (not saying it’s right or wrong) is our government. They allow a start up to offer $19 fares on a route that is another Airline’s bread and butter, and that’s ok, but if said airline offers $15 on the same route, that’s predatory pricing, and illegal.

A start up can use their advantage (low cost structure) to under cut you, but you can’t use your advantage (volume and route structure) to defend your business.

DarkSideMoon
12-07-2018, 12:41 PM
Unless they're stuck at a really bad regional, why risk it? Better wages maybe, but even more risky than a regional in the mid-term. Yeah there will always be people who will go, but a startup is going to be a lot of work. And again, they need LCA, sim guys, and people with certificate experience. The FAA simply won't let them do a startup with the dregs of the regional lifers.

I’m super early on in my career with no family obligations. I’d happily roll the dice on a startup because if it fails in 5 years I still have plenty of time to recover, and if it takes off I can retire early.

GreatBigSea
12-08-2018, 11:33 AM
Yeah, he's not going to get away with going cheap on pilots, especially at a startup which needs smart, experienced people in the early days. Anybody who has startup captain qualifications has options (including possibly just staying at a comfortable regional).

Start paying the smart, experienced pilots at 10 years longevity. Once the cert is granted and you're ready to hire your run of the mill line pilots, start them at the bottom of the scale.

Will there be a bucket load of pilots busting down the door to go there? Nope. But there will be enough to fill classes. If not, you tweak the starting pay and incentives just enough to keep the classes full.

David Puddy
12-09-2018, 06:21 AM
When is the proposed startup date again? 2021? With all of the needed planning (including official brand name since Moxy was temporary), we probably won’t hear any details for another 6-12 months. I am interested to hear more about their model and how they will compete against the Legacies and LCCs....

badflaps
12-09-2018, 10:00 AM
When is the proposed startup date again? 2021? With all of the needed planning (including official brand name since Moxy was temporary), we probably won’t hear any details for another 6-12 months. I am interested to hear more about their model and how they will compete against the Legacies and LCCs....
If you put as much research in as you did with the mini-bus, the results should be worthy of a NY analyst.:D

hoover
12-09-2018, 11:37 AM
I’m super early on in my career with no family obligations. I’d happily roll the dice on a startup because if it fails in 5 years I still have plenty of time to recover, and if it takes off I can retire early.

Except when that airline fails and it's a bad economy and no one is hiring except bottom feeders that pay even less for more work and then the FAA raises retirement age to 70 because those senior guys can't retire with 10 million in the bank and need to work 5 more yrs to pay for their 4th wife and 5th house and you get stuck at said bottom feeder for 10 yrs and now have an investigation on your record because that crap company won't do maintenance and you went anyways because hey gotta have a job and they'll fire you if you don't so now you can't move on as easily as thought when you went to that startup and your peers who went with a household name are still there albeit not a captain but making a comfortable living and not hating their decisions of going with that startup when everyone else was hiring .
How's that for a run on sentence?

Excargodog
12-09-2018, 12:29 PM
Except when that airline fails and it's a bad economy and no one is hiring except bottom feeders that pay even less for more work and then the FAA raises retirement age to 70 because those senior guys can't retire with 10 million in the bank and need to work 5 more yrs to pay for their 4th wife and 5th house and you get stuck at said bottom feeder for 10 yrs and now have an investigation on your record because that crap company won't do maintenance and you went anyways because hey gotta have a job and they'll fire you if you don't so now you can't move on as easily as thought when you went to that startup and your peers who went with a household name are still there albeit not a captain but making a comfortable living and not hating their decisions of going with that startup when everyone else was hiring .
How's that for a run on sentence?

Except they'll have brand new shiny jets that will attract some people because they will be shiny new jets and some people for the quick upgrades into a type rating into an airframe that a couple majors will be flying. And a lot of retiring military people who have been out of the cockpit for a few years will be happy to make their 'knock the rust off/introduction to 121 flying' at Moxy.

No, the only thing that would stop Moxy manning would be lousy pay/QOL or a credible threat that those working there would be boycotted from future hiring by the majors, and I can't picture the latter happening. The former seems sort of doubtful too.

DarkSideMoon
12-09-2018, 03:20 PM
Except when that airline fails and it's a bad economy and no one is hiring except bottom feeders that pay even less for more work and then the FAA raises retirement age to 70 because those senior guys can't retire with 10 million in the bank and need to work 5 more yrs to pay for their 4th wife and 5th house and you get stuck at said bottom feeder for 10 yrs and now have an investigation on your record because that crap company won't do maintenance and you went anyways because hey gotta have a job and they'll fire you if you don't so now you can't move on as easily as thought when you went to that startup and your peers who went with a household name are still there albeit not a captain but making a comfortable living and not hating their decisions of going with that startup when everyone else was hiring .
How's that for a run on sentence?

I’d just go back to bartending until the whole thing blew over.

hoover
12-11-2018, 10:14 AM
Definitely worth a shot then.

PosNhold
12-14-2018, 05:21 AM
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblue-founder-david-neeleman-on-new-airline

David Puddy
12-14-2018, 08:14 AM
https://www.cntraveler.com/story/jetblue-founder-david-neeleman-on-new-airline

Very interesting article. Three best points for me:

1. The A220 will be used flexibly (both short and longer routes)
2. The new airline will not directly compete with JB on routes and it will likely connect city pairs not currently connected with nonstop flights (ie current routes requiring a hub stop)
3. Proprietary Apps will be leveraged significantly (love the flight cancellation scenario example)

Let’s hope Dave doesn’t go cheap on pilot compensation - especially in this tight market where the LCCs and Legacies will be hiring in big numbers for the next decade....

dawgdriver
12-14-2018, 08:20 AM
Interesting. DN has a remarkable record of innovation, finding niches, and exploiting opportunities.

Should be fun to watch. Again.

pangolin
12-21-2018, 09:26 PM
Where do I apply?

Very interesting article. Three best points for me:

1. The A220 will be used flexibly (both short and longer routes)
2. The new airline will not directly compete with JB on routes and it will likely connect city pairs not currently connected with nonstop flights (ie current routes requiring a hub stop)
3. Proprietary Apps will be leveraged significantly (love the flight cancellation scenario example)

Let’s hope Dave doesn’t go cheap on pilot compensation - especially in this tight market where the LCCs and Legacies will be hiring in big numbers for the next decade....

jonnyjetprop
12-26-2018, 04:34 AM
Normally it's the former. Since he's done this before, it may be the later. I'm sure the first couple of classes will be hand picked from friends and former colleagues. Every initial pilot will have to be able to pass effectively a direct entry captain position from a training department that's being heavily scrutinized by the FAA. The FAA lived in my initial class at Orange Air.


Does anyone with experience in start ups know how that usually plays out? Is it a “wink wink, nudge nudge”, “tap on the shoulder” kind of thing? Or should we expect to see a website put together clearly stating compensation and such?

-blink

sailingfun
12-26-2018, 06:15 AM
Keep in mind that Moxy has not ordered any aircraft at this point. The widely reported A220 order is actual a memorandum of understanding and comes at no cost. The are not even tentative orders let alone firm orders where money is put down. If he is going to fly in 2021 that memorandum needs to be converted to firm orders very quickly.

tyler durden
12-31-2018, 03:01 PM
https://skift.com/2018/12/19/david-neeleman-taps-ex-allegiant-air-exec-

David Neeleman has a nose for talent and a track record of surrounding himself with like-minded, successful visionaries. Lukas was great for Allegiant.

HeavenCanWait
01-03-2019, 08:27 AM
https://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/12439647/us-start-up-airline-moxy-confirms-order-for-60-airbus-a220-300s

jcountry
01-03-2019, 03:32 PM
Anyone know where their bases will be?

Triggs
01-03-2019, 03:54 PM
anyone know where their bases will be?

mia gso iwa??

tom11011
01-03-2019, 04:33 PM
Ind cvg bna

redbone
01-03-2019, 06:57 PM
Lch, lft, aex

Fifty50
01-03-2019, 07:25 PM
Anyone know where their bases will be?

*Disclaimer: yes, I know...Wikipedia*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxy_(airline)

Destinations

Moxy will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including:

Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
Gary/Chicago Airport
Hollywood Burbank Airport
Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
Oakland International Airport
Ontario International Airport
Orlando Sanford International Airport
Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
Providence International Airport
St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport
Trenton-Mercer Airport, New Jersey

Maybe? Even Wikipedia says ‘potential’ destinations, so :confused:

dera
01-03-2019, 08:27 PM
*Disclaimer: yes, I know...Wikipedia*

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxy_(airline)

Destinations

Moxy will offer point-to-point service between secondary airports, potentially including:

Fort Worth Meacham International Airport
Gary/Chicago Airport
Hollywood Burbank Airport
Long Island's Islip Airport and Farmingdale/Republic Airport
MidAmerica St. Louis Airport
Oakland International Airport
Ontario International Airport
Orlando Sanford International Airport
Phoenix–Mesa Gateway Airport
Providence International Airport
St. Pete–Clearwater International Airport
Trenton-Mercer Airport, New Jersey

Maybe? Even Wikipedia says ‘potential’ destinations, so :confused:

A few of those airports don't even have a terminal building.

badflaps
01-04-2019, 05:40 AM
A few of those airports don't even have a terminal building.
Hey, Gary has an old beat up PanAm desk that can be had cheaply.:D

SrfNFly227
01-04-2019, 07:06 AM
Is commuting ever an option for the initial hires at a start up? I would think it would take some time to get jumpseat agreements in place, but I was also too young to be paying attention when JetBlue or Spirit started up.

PotatoChip
01-04-2019, 08:09 AM
A few of those airports don't even have a terminal building.

Which ones??
The only one on that list that doesn't that I know of is GYY.

jonnyjetprop
01-04-2019, 10:12 AM
Is commuting ever an option for the initial hires at a start up? I would think it would take some time to get jumpseat agreements in place, but I was also too young to be paying attention when JetBlue or Spirit started up.

It's fairly easy to get CASS setup. That gives you access to every carrier that doesn't require an agreement. It can takes weeks to months to get the agreements in place at legacy/LCC/prime cargo companies.

CrowneVic
01-04-2019, 12:06 PM
Looks like JB moved closer to acquisition of the A220, as well. 60 each for Moxy and JB.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisagarcia/2019/01/03/moxy-and-jetblue-place-firm-orders-for-120-airbus-a220-aircraft/#337bf51b7744

friend
01-04-2019, 03:42 PM
https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-releases/en/2019/01/u-s--start-up-airline--moxy--confirms-order-for-60-airbus-a220-3.html

jetset
01-04-2019, 04:47 PM
Lch, lft, aex

:D a220 amphib me cher

dera
01-04-2019, 05:30 PM
Which ones??
The only one on that list that doesn't that I know of is GYY.

FRG, the terminal building there is pretty much ready to be torn down.

redbone
01-05-2019, 06:52 AM
:D a220 amphib me cher

Dey put one of dem 220s on floats and I’ll land it rot down the bayou Teeboy

9easy
01-08-2019, 06:17 AM
PIE IWA and SFB are already bursting at capacity, any additional gate space is years away and Allegiant would love to have more room in those three airports..

David Puddy
01-08-2019, 03:48 PM
SGJ (St. Augustine, FL) is ripe for this type of ULCC service. Year-round sunny beaches, plenty of elderly people/snowbirds, a decent terminal (recently used by Via Air for E145 service to CLT) and an 8,000 ft runway. Sure, JAX is nearby, but anyone south of SGJ will want to use it rather than JAX. Allegiant has done a great job with airports like Punta Gorda - no doubt Moxy could use the same strategy so long as the facilities exist.

DarkSideMoon
01-08-2019, 04:47 PM
Which ones??
The only one on that list that doesn't that I know of is GYY.

GYY had service with allegiant a few years back so there has to be some kind of workaround.

David Puddy
02-02-2019, 03:49 PM
Any news???????

captjns
02-02-2019, 04:18 PM
Any news???????

Yeah. Notham is not resigning as Governor of VA.

David Puddy
02-02-2019, 07:08 PM
Yeah. Notham is not resigning as Governor of VA.

He probably won’t get re-elected either...

Prettywhacked1
02-02-2019, 07:12 PM
VA is a single term state for the Governorship.

N/A.

David Puddy
02-03-2019, 05:06 AM
VA is a single term state for the Governorship.

N/A.

Why can’t we have these term limits in Congress and all governorships?

The701Express
02-03-2019, 06:24 AM
Why can’t we have these term limits in Congress and all governorships?

Because term limits don't stop corrupt behavior, force out experienced and effective legislators, speed up the revolving door from politician to lobbying, and gives those lobbyists more sway over new politicians who are just getting familiar with the job and how to legislate.

Campaign finance reform, strong anti-corruption laws, ethics oversight, and fair redistricting are much more effective at making politicians responsive to their constituents and legislate for them instead of special interest groups with deep pockets.

hilltopflyer
02-03-2019, 06:40 AM
Because term limits don't stop corrupt behavior, force out experienced and effective legislators, speed up the revolving door from politician to lobbying, and gives those lobbyists more sway over new politicians who are just getting familiar with the job and how to legislate.

Campaign finance reform, strong anti-corruption laws, ethics oversight, and fair redistricting are much more effective at making politicians responsive to their constituents and legislate for them instead of special interest groups with deep pockets.

And the ones who have been there forever aren’t in lobbies pocket books. Pelosi,
McConnell, Schumer? The list can go on and on.

Excargodog
02-03-2019, 06:53 AM
And the ones who have been there forever aren’t in lobbies pocket books. Pelosi,
McConnell, Schumer? The list can go on and on.

All power corrupts and as the federal government has accreted more and more power to itself, the corruption has worsened.

But the forum is about airlines...., remember?

:rolleyes:

dawgdriver
02-03-2019, 07:47 AM
But the forum is about airlines...., remember?

:rolleyes:

^^^this^^^

Wow.

Fifty50
02-04-2019, 11:06 AM
Back on topic, kinda:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2&i=1000429119037

The link is for the new episode of “How I built this” podcast from NPR. Doesn’t talk about Moxy really at all till the end; however, you do get to hear how Neeleman grew up in the airline biz as a serial entrepreneur.

dxBrian
02-04-2019, 11:18 AM
He may be planning on buying an existing 121 cert with aircraft and pilots, adding the CS300 would be easier than starting from scratch. I know of several supplementals that are for sale

And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Triggs
02-04-2019, 04:47 PM
And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

PM sent


<filler>

Hellafo
02-04-2019, 09:34 PM
And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Curious on your thoughts, shoot me the DM too.
Hella curious

friend
02-04-2019, 09:50 PM
I would also be interested to know what airlines you might think it would be PM me also

Maingear
02-05-2019, 01:43 AM
And which carriers would that be? Please PM me if you don't want to post publicly.

Probably Transstaes, Gojet, and Compass.

Hellafo
02-05-2019, 01:37 PM
Probably Transstaes, Gojet, and Compass.

After working for the Hula's circus for 6 years.....nice joke

Maingear
02-05-2019, 03:00 PM
After working for the Hula's circus for 6 years.....nice joke

They are all prime to not have any more flying to do soon.

ItnStln
02-06-2019, 07:08 AM
PM sent


<filler>

Please PM me the list as well.

Excargodog
02-06-2019, 03:25 PM
They are all prime to not have any more flying to do soon.

GoJet just got a 50 plane 10 year contract with United to fly CRJ550s.

n606tw
02-08-2019, 04:42 AM
I think they are waiting the next economic recession to start the operation! Lol

Luizsbcunha
04-19-2019, 12:20 PM
New airplane, new business model. I hope he's prepared to pay pilots a real premium, otherwise why go to a startup when the legacies will be hiring big-time.

Good luck with that.
Azul pays the lowest salary but as brazilian economy is instable, pilots tend to keep their jobs instead of trading for higher incomes.

Voski
05-10-2019, 10:40 AM
Any updates on Moxy?

David Puddy
05-11-2019, 07:54 AM
Any updates on Moxy?

Latest I have been able to find is they will finalize a new name this summer and they hired a former Allegiant route planner to help develop a non-hub (point-to-point in secondary and tertiary markets) route strategy. Otherwise it has been quiet.... Would also like to hear any updates if people have them....

sailingfun
05-11-2019, 09:50 AM
Financing is not falling into place yet. Neelman does not use his own money. Firm orders are still somewhat soft at this point. I suspect he will however get it put together. Might be delayed a bit.

blinkpilot182
05-11-2019, 03:03 PM
Thanks for the updates folks. I’m still keeping an eye on this. Could be exciting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Puddy
05-26-2019, 06:23 AM
Not sure if people had seen this Moxy article. Not much in the press lately. I think I read about a range enhancement for the CS300 to 3,450 miles which would be helpful for longer flights... See article below:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflying.com/moxy-airline-long-haul-flights/amp/

blinkpilot182
05-26-2019, 06:44 AM
Not sure if people had seen this Moxy article. Not much in the press lately. I think I read about a range enhancement for the CS300 to 3,450 miles which would be helpful for longer flights... See article below:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflying.com/moxy-airline-long-haul-flights/amp/



Yeah! Saw that. That’s super exciting. It would be nuts if they beat JB across the pond. I thought they are just about ready to launch that service.

Some folks had theories about using a regional as a “turn key” start up for Moxy. Maybe they’ll want to hire some international know how though. [emoji848]

Can’t wait to see what’s going on behind the curtain!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CLIMBINGVIA
05-27-2019, 10:35 PM
The Delta Capt pay rate on the CS300 is $270 an hour and the F/O rate is $183. David better get out his checkbook if he wants to attract pilots to fly for him.

friend
05-28-2019, 01:29 AM
Trust me the pay will be much lower but he will get pilots with options of cheap company stocks
Pilots are their own dam enemies, they will prostitute themselves to fly shinny big jets

David Puddy
05-28-2019, 04:44 AM
Trust me the pay will be much lower but he will get pilots with options of cheap company stocks
Pilots are their own dam enemies, they will prostitute themselves to fly shinny big jets

I agree with you. David will have to offer something special given the hiring rates at the Legacies and more established LCCs. Stock options are likely - and cheap. Very curious to hear more about potential bases - would expect secondary and tertiary markets. Hope to get more details about the operation this summer (one of the articles mentioned the new name might be finalized this summer).

Anyone hear any more details/rumors?

pangolin
05-28-2019, 05:30 AM
Trust me the pay will be much lower but he will get pilots with options of cheap company stocks
Pilots are their own dam enemies, they will prostitute themselves to fly shinny big jets

I resemble this remark. Where do I apply?

captive apple
05-28-2019, 07:03 AM
Seriously, does anyone know yet how to get an application into the right hands?

ecam
05-28-2019, 08:32 AM
The Delta Capt pay rate on the CS300 is $270 an hour and the F/O rate is $183. David better get out his checkbook if he wants to attract pilots to fly for him.

They don't have to offer legacy pay. The pilots they attract like most startups will be refugees from other airlines who didn't have the luck and timing to get to a legacy or chose not to for whatever reason. Also many who are in the regionals who would jump at the chance. And like said above it will be a compensation package with lower rates but great stock and benefits. I'm betting they have no trouble getting pilots at all and it becomes very competitive.

SEAtoSummit
05-28-2019, 08:48 AM
They don't have to offer legacy pay. The pilots they attract like most startups will be refugees from other airlines who didn't have the luck and timing to get to a legacy or chose not to for whatever reason. Also many who are in the regionals who would jump at the chance. And like said above it will be a compensation package with lower rates but great stock and benefits. I'm betting they have no trouble getting pilots at all and it becomes very competitive.

This.

No shortage of regional pilots willing to move onto something bigger, newer, and with better pay. Especially initially, there's a lot of incentive to go:

-Double-digit or low 3-digit seniority number and fast upgrades during that first 2-3 year growth period.
-Stock options on a new airline with growth potential (how many would have gone to work for Southwest in 1970, knowing what we know now?)
-Possibly unique, low cost-of-living pilot bases, judging by their business model.

The real challenge will be retaining FOs after the company hits its first growth/hiring plateau.

Riverside
05-29-2019, 05:19 PM
Seriously, does anyone know yet how to get an application into the right hands?

Got an email the other day. What do you want to know?

CrowneVic
05-29-2019, 08:10 PM
Got an email the other day. What do you want to know?

Care to share?

calmak
05-29-2019, 09:33 PM
Got an email the other day. What do you want to know?

I'd like to know what that email said?

SEAtoSummit
05-30-2019, 03:41 AM
Got an email the other day. What do you want to know?

Care to share?

https://media1.tenor.com/images/395440a6aff8100d0f114c261694f332/tenor.gif?itemid=12101708


Haha. Unless he got an email from David Neeleman himself, I’m pretty sure that’s some graduate-level trolling.

They don’t even have a name for the airline yet, let alone a pilot hiring department.

But seriously, the only way you’re getting a resume into someone’s hands at this point (~2 years prior to the first scheduled flight) is if you “know someone who knows someone” or have the Google-Fu to get Neeleman’s email address. And even then, he’s probably only interested in an initial management cadre (i.e. a CP typed in the A220, or a retired military wing commander with years of senior management experience).

I’m sure when they are ready for a flood of resumes from prospective FOs, they’ll make it known.

blinkpilot182
05-30-2019, 03:44 AM
https://media1.tenor.com/images/395440a6aff8100d0f114c261694f332/tenor.gif?itemid=12101708





Haha. Unless he got an email from David Neeleman himself, I’m pretty sure that’s some graduate-level trolling.



They don’t even have a name for the airline yet, let alone a pilot hiring department.



But seriously, the only way you’re getting a resume into someone’s hands at this point (~2 years prior to the first scheduled flight) is if you “know someone who knows someone” or have the Google-Fu to get Neeleman’s email address. And even then, he’s probably only interested in an initial management cadre (i.e. a CP typed in the A220, or a retired military wing commander with years of senior management experience).



I’m sure when they are ready for a flood of resumes from prospective FOs, they’ll make it known.


Gotta love a little breakfast table speculation though [emoji16]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Riverside
05-30-2019, 05:11 AM
Haha. Unless he got an email from David Neeleman himself, I’m pretty sure that’s some graduate-level trolling.



I couldn't help myself.

putzin
05-30-2019, 05:22 AM
I couldn't help myself.

Stop teasing the children.

captive apple
05-30-2019, 05:45 AM
I couldn't help myself.

Hook line and sinker.
I bit hard

badflaps
05-30-2019, 05:50 AM
Hook line and sinker.
I bit hard

If you don't ask...........

blinkpilot182
05-30-2019, 05:55 AM
If you don't ask...........



Better to stay ahead of the curve than behind it. I don’t think think the Moxy hype equates to shiny jet syndrome


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pangolin
05-30-2019, 06:16 AM
https://media1.tenor.com/images/395440a6aff8100d0f114c261694f332/tenor.gif?itemid=12101708


Haha. Unless he got an email from David Neeleman himself, I’m pretty sure that’s some graduate-level trolling.

They don’t even have a name for the airline yet, let alone a pilot hiring department.

But seriously, the only way you’re getting a resume into someone’s hands at this point (~2 years prior to the first scheduled flight) is if you “know someone who knows someone” or have the Google-Fu to get Neeleman’s email address. And even then, he’s probably only interested in an initial management cadre (i.e. a CP typed in the A220, or a retired military wing commander with years of senior management experience).

I’m sure when they are ready for a flood of resumes from prospective FOs, they’ll make it known.

They’ll need captains too. I’m aiming for that.

giggity37
06-01-2019, 11:50 AM
They aren't going to hire any regional FO's for a while since they wont have any Captains on property. I don't see how they could hire anyone without PIC time.

badflaps
06-02-2019, 02:19 AM
They aren't going to hire any regional FO's for a while since they wont have any Captains on property. I don't see how they could hire anyone without PIC time.

Why do I think he might try to green card some Azul folks.

David Puddy
06-02-2019, 06:50 AM
Why do I think he might try to green card some Azul folks.

Import more Australian pilots to fly them!!!!! ;)

I am actually very curious about Moxy and I wonder how many details they will release ahead of launch given that all of the other airlines want to stifle it quickly.

Sounds like connecting the dots on non-hub, Allegiant-like routes which could be interesting. Given the capabilities of the CS300, that opens up a lot of interesting route possibilities. I wonder if Dave has considered GREYHOUND BLUE as a possible name? :)

Voski
06-08-2019, 11:48 AM
How did jetBlue go about hiring their initial pilot group? I'd imagine David Neeleman's new startup will follow the same formula given that it's worked well for him in the past.

hilltopflyer
06-08-2019, 11:58 AM
How did jetBlue go about hiring their initial pilot group? I'd imagine David Neeleman's new startup will follow the same formula given that it's worked well for him in the past.

There is a reason they are called the horrible hundred. A bunch more f people who couldn’t get hired elsewhere. Then 9/11 happened and jb hired all the legacy furloughs

C37AFE
06-09-2019, 01:15 PM
There is a reason they are called the horrible hundred. A bunch more f people who couldn’t get hired elsewhere. Then 9/11 happened and jb hired all the legacy furloughs

So you’re saying I got a chance!....haha

pangolin
06-09-2019, 03:47 PM
So you’re saying I got a chance!....haha

Best news I’ve heard all day.

PasserOGas
06-12-2019, 12:41 AM
There is a reason they are called the horrible hundred. A bunch more f people who couldn’t get hired elsewhere. Then 9/11 happened and jb hired all the legacy furloughs

Yeah, they are a fun bunch. They never really sat in the right seat due to the growth back then so none of their bad habits were beat out of them . It's like flying with a 250 hour wonder, except he's 45 and the captain.

pangolin
06-12-2019, 06:49 AM
Yeah, they are a fun bunch. They never really sat in the right seat due to the growth back then so none of their bad habits were beat out of them . It's like flying with a 250 hour wonder, except he's 45 and the captain.

So they were never captains elsewhere?

David Puddy
06-16-2019, 01:21 PM
Would be cool if we got more details (including a name update) at the Paris Airshow....

jamesholzhauer
06-17-2019, 09:28 AM
Would be cool if we got more details (including a name update) at the Paris Airshow....

some details in here (https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-06-17/ge-unit-to-supply-planes-for-david-neeleman-s-new-u-s-airline)

chrisreedrules
06-17-2019, 09:37 AM
Any guess at what competitive mins may be for a DEC spot?

I’m not sure how other startups like this have traditionally been...

DarkSideMoon
06-17-2019, 11:39 AM
some details in here (https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-06-17/ge-unit-to-supply-planes-for-david-neeleman-s-new-u-s-airline)

“Hiring in earnest at the end of this year”

CrowneVic
06-17-2019, 05:06 PM
"...the carrier likely will be based near a technology center other than Silicon Valley."

Austin? Dallas? Raleigh? Dulles?

Flyby1206
06-17-2019, 05:11 PM
"...the carrier likely will be based near a technology center other than Silicon Valley."

Austin? Dallas? Raleigh? Dulles?

AUS is a good bet.

DarkSideMoon
06-17-2019, 05:52 PM
"...the carrier likely will be based near a technology center other than Silicon Valley."

Austin? Dallas? Raleigh? Dulles?

My money is on Chicago. Centrally located, GYY is criminally underused, many tech companies moving there or opening satellite offices.

I could see AUS though. Maybe CVG.

David Puddy
06-17-2019, 06:11 PM
AUS is a good bet.

I agree. We will see it in secondary and tertiary markets according to various articles I’ve read. Imagine “biggish” non-hub cities with enough cheap gate space - maybe PIT, CLE or MCI. With the versatile CS300 you could easily see route pairings like PIT-BUR or OAK-PBI.

Neeleman has talked about not competing directly with JB. Will be interesting to get more details - including a finalized name....

dawgdriver
06-18-2019, 08:14 AM
My money is on Chicago. Centrally located, GYY is criminally underused, many tech companies moving there or opening satellite offices.

I could see AUS though. Maybe CVG.

I could see AUS too. Strong tech base, educated population, inexpensive real estate, under-utilized, business and tax friendly state, etc.

IL (NY, CA...) are driving business away in droves.

Air Guitar
06-18-2019, 08:24 AM
I agree. We will see it in secondary and tertiary markets according to various articles I’ve read. Imagine “biggish” non-hub cities with enough cheap gate space - maybe PIT, CLE or MCI. With the versatile CS300 you could easily see route pairings like PIT-BUR or OAK-PBI.

Neeleman has talked about not competing directly with JB. Will be interesting to get more details - including a finalized name....

Easy way to not step on JB's toes is focus on the westside.

N6279P
06-18-2019, 08:45 AM
I could see AUS too. Strong tech base, educated population, inexpensive real estate, under-utilized, business and tax friendly state, etc.

IL (NY, CA...) are driving business away in droves.

AUS has no available gate space.

pangolin
06-18-2019, 10:05 AM
AUS has no available gate space.

9 planes to start. Only need one gate.

David Puddy
06-18-2019, 10:51 AM
9 planes to start. Only need one gate.

Moxy has 60 firm orders for the A220/CS300 but will do a “sale and leaseback” transaction with a big lessor for the first 9 - this is a standard transaction for providing additional liquidity up front. Here’s the article talking about the leasing transaction:

https://worldairlinenews.com/2019/06/18/gecas-and-david-neeleman-agree-to-a-letter-of-intent-for-nine-airbus-a220-300-aircraft/?fbclid=IwAR3RHHwxjJz4AzZY2zaDZsxgKVfs2e1FlU-449LGQDjbbZeWKYkY5SOnSv4

Regarding Austin, nobody external to the business knows the route structure yet. All we know is that evidently many, many cities in secondary and tertiary markets have reached out to Moxy begging for airline service. There are many non-hub dots with 100,000+ people that could be connected on the map. Should be very interesting to watch and I hope we continue to get more information soon...

pangolin
06-18-2019, 12:18 PM
Moxy has 60 firm orders for the A220/CS300 but will do a “sale and leaseback” transaction with a big lessor for the first 9 - this is a standard transaction for providing additional liquidity up front. Here’s the article talking about the leasing transaction:

https://worldairlinenews.com/2019/06/18/gecas-and-david-neeleman-agree-to-a-letter-of-intent-for-nine-airbus-a220-300-aircraft/?fbclid=IwAR3RHHwxjJz4AzZY2zaDZsxgKVfs2e1FlU-449LGQDjbbZeWKYkY5SOnSv4

Regarding Austin, nobody external to the business knows the route structure yet. All we know is that evidently many, many cities in secondary and tertiary markets have reached out to Moxy begging for airline service. There are many non-hub dots with 100,000+ people that could be connected on the map. Should be very interesting to watch and I hope we continue to get more information soon...

Anyone from hiring watching - PM me.

dawgdriver
06-18-2019, 03:58 PM
AUS has no available gate space.

Gate space? Yeah, that'll stop Neeleman. :rolleyes:

AUS wanted the business, so Allegiant was given terminal across the AUS ramp. Problem solved. Again, business-friendly cities like Austin, among others, don't allow trivial issues like gate space to preclude them from attracting commerce, transportation and employment opportunities. Imagine an airport authority explaining to the Mayor, City Council and Chamber of Commerce why an airline HQ was located elsewhere ...because of gate space.

Rest assured, AUS would be more than happy to make room for Moxy. Minor inconvenience for a guy that revolutionized the industry.

blinkpilot182
06-18-2019, 05:26 PM
Glad to see Moxy gaining traction at the Paris Airshow! 2021 needs to come faster!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ChecklistMonkey
06-18-2019, 05:47 PM
Gate space? Yeah, that'll stop Neeleman. :rolleyes:

AUS wanted the business, so Allegiant was given terminal across the AUS ramp. Problem solved. Again, business-friendly cities like Austin, among others, don't allow trivial issues like gate space to preclude them from attracting commerce, transportation and employment opportunities. Imagine an airport authority explaining to the Mayor, City Council and Chamber of Commerce why an airline HQ was located elsewhere ...because of gate space.

Rest assured, AUS would be more than happy to make room for Moxy. Minor inconvenience for a guy that revolutionized the industry.

Revolutionized. Certainly he's successful, but

GUFN
06-18-2019, 06:15 PM
"...the carrier likely will be based near a technology center other than Silicon Valley."

Austin? Dallas? Raleigh? Dulles?

How about SEA? Or is it gate poor? Maybe they could merge/acquire Alaska and get two for one - gates and a developed west coast market.

sailingfun
06-19-2019, 05:50 AM
Moxy has 60 firm orders for the A220/CS300 but will do a “sale and leaseback” transaction with a big lessor for the first 9 - this is a standard transaction for providing additional liquidity up front. Here’s the article talking about the leasing transaction:

https://worldairlinenews.com/2019/06/18/gecas-and-david-neeleman-agree-to-a-letter-of-intent-for-nine-airbus-a220-300-aircraft/?fbclid=IwAR3RHHwxjJz4AzZY2zaDZsxgKVfs2e1FlU-449LGQDjbbZeWKYkY5SOnSv4

Regarding Austin, nobody external to the business knows the route structure yet. All we know is that evidently many, many cities in secondary and tertiary markets have reached out to Moxy begging for airline service. There are many non-hub dots with 100,000+ people that could be connected on the map. Should be very interesting to watch and I hope we continue to get more information soon...

I would only call it a standard transaction for a company lacking liquidity.

dawgdriver
06-19-2019, 08:15 AM
So...I take it you disagree...?

In just two short sentences you were able to mix 2 religious terms with a vulgar sex act. Such talent.

Keepin' it classy on APC. Thanks for the visual and reminding me why I quit reading this forum.

TFAYD
06-19-2019, 08:28 AM
I would only call it a standard transaction for a company lacking liquidity.

Nope.

This is SOP for all lease transactions. It is free / low cost financing that every CFO will leverage.

David Puddy
06-19-2019, 10:07 AM
Nope.

This is SOP for all lease transactions. It is free / low cost financing that every CFO will leverage.

Completely agree. This is a standard financial tool/transaction.

sailingfun
06-19-2019, 10:13 AM
Nope.

This is SOP for all lease transactions. It is free / low cost financing that every CFO will leverage.

It’s certainly not free or low cost. There are various reasons to sell and leaseback airframes but it’s usually about liquidity. Look at Norwegians actions the last few years.

Excargodog
06-19-2019, 10:17 AM
I would only call it a standard transaction for a company lacking liquidity.

Flying leased aircraft is NOT uncommon.

Of Delta’s 91 B717s they own 3 and lease 88.

In total they lease 198 and own 687.



https://www.delta.com/us/en/about-delta/corporate-information

sailingfun
06-19-2019, 10:32 AM
Flying leased aircraft is NOT uncommon.

Of Delta’s 91 B717s they own 3 and lease 88.

In total they lease 198 and own 687.



https://www.delta.com/us/en/about-delta/corporate-information

I never said it was uncommon. It’s very common to lease aircraft for many reasons. You might want them for a defined period of time, there may be tax implications or it might be a great deal. Purchasing a airframe and then selling it is far less common and generally is about liquidity.
In the case of the DL717’s the leases were heavily subsidized at below market rates.

ChecklistMonkey
06-19-2019, 11:27 AM
So...I take it you disagree...?

In just two short sentences you were able to mix 2 religious terms with a vulgar sex act. Such talent.

Keepin' it classy on APC. Thanks for the visual and reminding me why I quit reading this forum.

You're offended by two common English statements? Shocking.

TFAYD
06-19-2019, 01:07 PM
It’s certainly not free or low cost. There are various reasons to sell and leaseback airframes but it’s usually about liquidity. Look at Norwegians actions the last few years.

It is typically lower cost than issuing a bond or getting a loan.

Of all financing options out there it is one of the cheapest cost of capital.

sailingfun
06-19-2019, 05:38 PM
It is typically lower cost than issuing a bond or getting a loan.

Of all financing options out there it is one of the cheapest cost of capital.

I would disagree. The leasing company has to borrow the money to purchase the aircraft. They have to mark that up in the lease rates to make a profit.

blinkpilot182
06-26-2019, 01:53 PM
Was hoping more would come out during the Paris Air Show. Guess we’re going to have to wait some more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Puddy
06-26-2019, 03:24 PM
Was hoping more would come out during the Paris Air Show. Guess we’re going to have to wait some more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would expect some updates soon. Dave Neeleman said a new name would be selected by “this summer” and I imagine more details would also be provided. No doubt they will likely keep a lot of details about initial routes, etc close to the vest for competitive reasons. However, I would expect a big branding effort before the end of the year to generate more consumer interest. Time will tell!

Notarealpilot
07-01-2019, 08:43 AM
I wonder if this is related.

The Walt Disney Company is about to enter the domestic aviation travel industry! Starting in 2021, The Disney Company will acquire smaller regional airlines to focus it’s operations on offering flights out of Orlando to and from major airport hubs including Detroit, Chicago, LaGuardia, and LAX.

Disney has been cited in the past expanding their transportation offerings, with Disney’s Magical Express. The Magical Express is a transportation service that shuttles guests from Orlando’s Airport and to Disney Resort throughout the property. Now with Disney looking to operate in the air, they will control more of the guest experience.

We have “ears” inside on this development and have been given information that the entertainment offerings will include inflight Disney + access to each seat, Disney’s new streaming service. Disney songs will be being played over the airplane’s speakers as you board. There are also discussions that characters will also be making appearances before the cabin doors are closed to send you on your way. Buzz Lightyear, will have a heavy presence as your “captain speaking.”

The airlines will be “wrapped” with famous Marvel and princess themes to help celebrate your big trip. Disney is to stay competitive with rates that are just as affordable as South West Airlines and United. One perk that passengers can look forward to is if your staying at an onsite Disney resort within 48 hours of your flight, your first bag is checked free of charge for every passenger.

Onboard snacks are to include, Mickey Premium Ice Cream bars, warm churros, and Strawberry fruit bars, Coca Cola will be in exclusivity with the airline as well. As more of this develops look here for more insight on how you can become one of the first guests aboard!

FLYMIA
07-01-2019, 09:14 AM
I wonder if this is related.

The Walt Disney Company is about to enter the domestic aviation travel industry! Starting in 2021, The Disney Company will acquire smaller regional airlines to focus it’s operations on offering flights out of Orlando to and from major airport hubs including Detroit, Chicago, LaGuardia, and LAX.

Disney has been cited in the past expanding their transportation offerings, with Disney’s Magical Express. The Magical Express is a transportation service that shuttles guests from Orlando’s Airport and to Disney Resort throughout the property. Now with Disney looking to operate in the air, they will control more of the guest experience.

We have “ears” inside on this development and have been given information that the entertainment offerings will include inflight Disney + access to each seat, Disney’s new streaming service. Disney songs will be being played over the airplane’s speakers as you board. There are also discussions that characters will also be making appearances before the cabin doors are closed to send you on your way. Buzz Lightyear, will have a heavy presence as your “captain speaking.”

The airlines will be “wrapped” with famous Marvel and princess themes to help celebrate your big trip. Disney is to stay competitive with rates that are just as affordable as South West Airlines and United. One perk that passengers can look forward to is if your staying at an onsite Disney resort within 48 hours of your flight, your first bag is checked free of charge for every passenger.

Onboard snacks are to include, Mickey Premium Ice Cream bars, warm churros, and Strawberry fruit bars, Coca Cola will be in exclusivity with the airline as well. As more of this develops look here for more insight on how you can become one of the first guests aboard!

www.disneyair.net

sailingfun
07-01-2019, 09:49 AM
Kind of goes against everything Moxy has stated as their mission statement.

David Puddy
07-01-2019, 01:23 PM
I wonder if this is related.

The Walt Disney Company is about to enter the domestic aviation travel industry! Starting in 2021, The Disney Company will acquire smaller regional airlines to focus it’s operations on offering flights out of Orlando to and from major airport hubs including Detroit, Chicago, LaGuardia, and LAX.

Disney has been cited in the past expanding their transportation offerings, with Disney’s Magical Express. The Magical Express is a transportation service that shuttles guests from Orlando’s Airport and to Disney Resort throughout the property. Now with Disney looking to operate in the air, they will control more of the guest experience.

We have “ears” inside on this development and have been given information that the entertainment offerings will include inflight Disney + access to each seat, Disney’s new streaming service. Disney songs will be being played over the airplane’s speakers as you board. There are also discussions that characters will also be making appearances before the cabin doors are closed to send you on your way. Buzz Lightyear, will have a heavy presence as your “captain speaking.”

The airlines will be “wrapped” with famous Marvel and princess themes to help celebrate your big trip. Disney is to stay competitive with rates that are just as affordable as South West Airlines and United. One perk that passengers can look forward to is if your staying at an onsite Disney resort within 48 hours of your flight, your first bag is checked free of charge for every passenger.

Onboard snacks are to include, Mickey Premium Ice Cream bars, warm churros, and Strawberry fruit bars, Coca Cola will be in exclusivity with the airline as well. As more of this develops look here for more insight on how you can become one of the first guests aboard!

Doubt it. Neeleman has clearly stated he has no interest in any hub-to-hub flying - and this proposed Disney venture would likely require that.

Hoping to hear some more MOXY details soon!!!!

blinkpilot182
07-01-2019, 07:40 PM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflying.com/moxy-airbus-a220-delivery/amp/

This came out a few days ago. The article states less than 2 years until the aircraft begin operation. My shot in the dark is maybe a year out they will start taking applications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Puddy
07-02-2019, 05:35 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/simpleflying.com/moxy-airbus-a220-delivery/amp/

This came out a few days ago. The article states less than 2 years until the aircraft begin operation. My shot in the dark is maybe a year out they will start taking applications.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That’s a good update! Would love to hear more details including the finalized name (I am betting BLUE will be part of it).

pangolin
07-02-2019, 06:30 AM
Welcome - Disney Air (http://www.disneyair.net)

Did you check out the website? It’s virtual not real.

FLYMIA
07-02-2019, 07:15 AM
Did you check out the website? It’s virtual not real.

Honestly thought the guy was trolling so I was messing around. KIDDING! Gotta love vatsim though.

ULLI
07-02-2019, 07:27 AM
Did you check out the website? It’s virtual not real.

Damm, i already sent in my app for Dec.

Excargodog
07-02-2019, 12:18 PM
Damm, i already sent in my app for Dec.

Here’s your ears...

blinkpilot182
07-03-2019, 08:05 PM
That’s a good update! Would love to hear more details including the finalized name (I am betting BLUE will be part of it).



I’m looking forward to hearing the name myself. I read on the JetCareers thread for Moxy that they were becoming fond of the “Moxy” name. I’m hoping for something Blue related as well, haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Puddy
07-04-2019, 05:39 AM
I’m looking forward to hearing the name myself. I read on the JetCareers thread for Moxy that they were becoming fond of the “Moxy” name. I’m hoping for something Blue related as well, haha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I actually like the name Moxy, but one of the articles mentioned that Marriott has a Moxy hotel brand and has objected to Dave using it. I believe he said they would work on the new name this summer.

EV120
08-04-2019, 05:28 AM
Surprised that there has not been any information lately. Seems like this venture has some interesting possibilities.

sailingfun
08-04-2019, 08:16 AM
Surprised that there has not been any information lately. Seems like this venture has some interesting possibilities.

They soon need to make their first real progress payments on their first batch of aircraft. That will be the first step where any real money is involved. If those payments are made then it starts to be real.

Riverside
08-04-2019, 11:12 AM
Surprised that there has not been any information lately. Seems like this venture has some interesting possibilities.

No union, low pay, and if I didn't say it no union.

David Puddy
08-04-2019, 02:02 PM
No union, low pay, and if I didn't say it no union.

Do you to expect it to start with a union? Did JetBlue start with a union?

blinkpilot182
08-05-2019, 03:52 AM
Do you to expect it to start with a union? Did JetBlue start with a union?

JetBlue pilots didn't unionize until 2014 I believe.