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View Full Version : Bravo AA management!


Flytolive
06-20-2018, 09:27 AM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-airlines-addresses-questions-about-flying-kids-split-from-families-2018-06-20/


Name User
06-20-2018, 10:23 AM
I guess when Obama did it, it was ok.

Here Are The Photos Of Obama?s Illegal Immigrant Detention Facilities The Media Won?t Show You | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities)

Normally AA does a really good job of staying out of these stupid political discussions. Wonder why they caved. I have a hunch it was because one of our FAs posted on social media about it and the company's hand was forced.

nimslow
06-20-2018, 10:50 AM
Bravo, good job turning away business because “feels”. As posted above, there isn’t anything new about what’s going on.


Flytolive
06-20-2018, 12:02 PM
I guess when Obama did it, it was ok.Sorry. Neither Bush or Obama systematically separated families. Thankfully, even Trump has now done a 180.

Slaphappy
06-20-2018, 12:08 PM
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-airlines-addresses-questions-about-flying-kids-split-from-families-2018-06-20/

It's pathetic.
Virtue signaling at it's worst.

Slaphappy
06-20-2018, 12:09 PM
Sorry. Neither Bush or Obama systematically separated families. Thankfully, even Trump has now done a 180.

And what is the problem?

navigatro
06-20-2018, 12:16 PM
I guess when Obama did it, it was ok.

Here Are The Photos Of Obama?s Illegal Immigrant Detention Facilities The Media Won?t Show You | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/19/photos-obama-immigration-detention-facilities)

Normally AA does a really good job of staying out of these stupid political discussions. Wonder why they caved. I have a hunch it was because one of our FAs posted on social media about it and the company's hand was forced.

you really can't figure it out? American (as well as world) public opinion was firmly against this policy. You may not realize this if all you watch is Fox News. And just because you and all your pilot buddies think it's true, the rest of the country may not feel the same way.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 12:17 PM
It's not that hard to understand.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 12:20 PM
you really can't figure it out? American (as well as world) public opinion was firmly against this policy. You may not realize this if all you watch is Fox News. And just because you and all your pilot buddies think it's true, the rest of the country may not feel the same way.

Because the media told them to be angry and they listened like the rest of the sheeple. Fox News huh? Haven't heard that one before. Very original.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 12:23 PM
I'll believe that the left cares about children when they stop supporting ripping them from the womb.

Flytolive
06-20-2018, 12:23 PM
It's not that hard to understand.Apparently it is for you. What should we do with the Statue of Liberty? What about the asylum seekers? Did this little girl deserve to possibly never see her mother again? If your answer is yes then you are one cold-hearted SOB.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 12:26 PM
Apparently it is for you. What should we do with the Statue of Liberty? What about the asylum seekers? Did this little girl deserve to possible never see her mother again?

I agree that the kids are the victims here. Unfortunately their idiot parents broke the law. It's no different for my children if I break the law.

Asylum seekers are not law breakers and are not separated from their families.

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border

Flytolive
06-20-2018, 12:31 PM
I agree that the kids are the victims here.And the Bush and Obama administrations did not systemically separate children from their parents.

Asylum seekers are not law breakers and are not separated from their families.The Trump administration did everything to make it as difficult as possible for these folks to access the asylum process. They turned people away at the legitimate ports of entry in some very dangerous places and rewrote what was valid reasons for seeking asylum.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 12:34 PM
And the Bush and Obama administrations did not systemically separate children from their parents.

The Trump administration did everything to make it as difficult as possible for these folks to access the asylum process. They turned people away at the legitimate ports of entry in some very dangerous places and rewrote what was valid reasons for seeking asylum.

So what would you do if you were President for a day since you have all the answers? I'm surprised that Trump changed the previous policies since they were obviously working so well.

Flytolive
06-20-2018, 12:45 PM
I'm surprised that Trump changed the previous policies since they were obviously working so well.Yah. If that is working great I would hate to see abysmal.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 01:03 PM
Yah. If that is working great I would hate to see abysmal.

It's like you're not even reading my posts.

Anyway, there are going to be unfortunate victims in this "war" on illegal immigration and unfortunately it's the innocent children as is usually the case. However, in typical new-age fashion, you're placing blame on everyone but the criminals. Trump didn't take these kids away from their parents. Their parents did that by breaking the law and bringing their kids with them. I feel terrible for the kids but it's no one else's fault but their criminal parents.

In the handful of alleged cases where asylum seekers are being turned away, that is wrong and should be corrected. However, that is not Trump's policy. That is an issue that likely happened because the border is being bombarded and just cannot handle the amount of people attempting to cross. It needs to be fixed.

There are also reports that some of the children being brought across the border with their "parents" can't even answer simple questions about their "parents". Spoiler alert: they're likely not related. Oh, and human trafficking is also a serious concern with the number of people crossing the border daily.

The issue is much larger than CNN has told you. I can admire your emotional response but you have to keep the bigger picture in mind. We have to send a strong signal which will hopefully be a deterrence in the future to keep this from happening long term.

kevinc5
06-20-2018, 01:06 PM
I'll believe that the left cares about children when they stop supporting ripping them from the womb.

Are you virtue signalling?

nAAtive
06-20-2018, 01:09 PM
Regardless of ones viewpoints It’s horrible that my company is being political. Shame on AA

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 01:09 PM
Are you virtue signalling?

I don’t know what that is. Is that the term of the week that the media is throwing around?

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 01:11 PM
Had to look that one up. No. I’m strictly pointing out the irony.

Flytolive
06-20-2018, 01:12 PM
In the handful of alleged cases where asylum seekers are being turned away, that is wrong and should be corrected. However, that is not Trump's policy. You need to broaden your news sources because you are ill-informed on these issues to be kind.

Less than 39% of the apprehensions at the boarder are determined to be inadmissible by CBP. The systemic separation of parents and children didn't happen under Bush, Obama and even Trump administrations until April 2018. Border crossings have been in decline for a years and funding is at an all time high so the overloaded argument is ridiculous.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 01:19 PM
You need to broaden your news sources because you are ill-informed on these issues to be kind.

Less than 39% of the apprehensions at the boarder are determined to be inadmissible by CBP. The systemic separation of parents and children didn't happen under Bush, Obama and even Trump administrations until April 2018. Border crossings have been in decline for a years and funding is at an all time high so the overloaded argument is ridiculous.

Did you read the NPR article I posted?

Name User
06-20-2018, 01:25 PM
I'll believe that the left cares about children when they stop supporting ripping them from the womb.

That's an excellent point

Slaphappy
06-20-2018, 01:32 PM
Apparently it is for you. What should we do with the Statue of Liberty? What about the asylum seekers? Did this little girl deserve to possibly never see her mother again? If your answer is yes then you are one cold-hearted SOB.

You're proof that the left appeals to emotion while the right appeals to logic and reason.

This kids parents are at fault.

And a poem written on a statues is not and should not be national policy.

Flytolive
06-20-2018, 01:33 PM
You're proof that the left appeals to emotion while the right appeals to logic and reason.Really? Then why did Trump just do a 180?

Slaphappy
06-20-2018, 01:35 PM
Really? Then why did Trump just do a 180?

We'll see what happens, it's rumored he just going to lock them up with their families. What will your outrage be then?

Laker24
06-20-2018, 03:49 PM
Apparently it is for you. What should we do with the Statue of Liberty? What about the asylum seekers? Did this little girl deserve to possibly never see her mother again? If your answer is yes then you are one cold-hearted SOB.

Agreed. I’m always surprised how little compassion is displayed by some of our fellow pilots. As much as we want the world to be black and white most issues fall in the gray zone. Even more disturbing is flying a trip with a an old white guy making $350k+ a year who seems to get pleasure out of hearing stories about little kids like this girl. Maybe he thinks that crying toddler from the slums is just a snowflake who needs to learn a lesson. Some of us forget our ancestors probably arrived on a boat cold, hungry, and poor.

These parents are just trying to provide a life for their kids. We would all do the same. Deport them sure. But tearing families apart is cruel.

BMEP100
06-20-2018, 04:01 PM
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good news story with lots of emotion.....

DHS reported that of 12000 illegal kids detained, some 10000 came without their parents. Many were in the custody of coyotes or others even suspected in human trafficking...

Parents send the kids unaccompanied because they know the gov will not deport them. They then make arrangement to cross themselves later, after the children have been fed, given medical attention, and certified asylum... so they can be reunited, hopefully. It's a twist on the anchor baby scheme.

Of course , if you or I commit a crime with our kids in tow, and the kids have no home-they are separated and "detained" also in government facilities.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 04:13 PM
Agreed. I’m always surprised how little compassion is displayed by some of our fellow pilots. As much as we want the world to be black and white most issues fall in the gray zone. Even more disturbing is flying a trip with a an old white guy making $350k+ a year who seems to get pleasure out of hearing stories about little kids like this girl. Maybe he thinks that crying toddler from the slums is just a snowflake who needs to learn a lesson. Some of us forget our ancestors probably arrived on a boat cold, hungry, and poor.

These parents are just trying to provide a life for their kids. We would all do the same. Deport them sure. But tearing families apart is cruel.

Lol. Way to play the lack of compassion card. Very stereotypical. Reading comprehension is obviously not your strong suit.

Laker24
06-20-2018, 04:19 PM
It is a lack of compassion. Using your numbers 2000 kids were separated from their parents. Funny that a lot of you guys consider yourselves to be good Christians. I wonder which side of this argument would Jesus take? Mother Theresa? The pope? Maybe you are right. Punish those toddlers.

C130driver
06-20-2018, 04:19 PM
It's not that hard to understand.

Way too complicated for them! Got to dumb it down a bit and put some touchy feely emotions.

MarineGrunt
06-20-2018, 04:25 PM
Agreed. I’m always surprised how little compassion is displayed by some of our fellow pilots. As much as we want the world to be black and white most issues fall in the gray zone. Even more disturbing is flying a trip with a an old white guy making $350k+ a year who seems to get pleasure out of hearing stories about little kids like this girl. Maybe he thinks that crying toddler from the slums is just a snowflake who needs to learn a lesson. Some of us forget our ancestors probably arrived on a boat cold, hungry, and poor.

These parents are just trying to provide a life for their kids. We would all do the same. Deport them sure. But tearing families apart is cruel.

Would you still be disturbed if it was an old black guy instead? If you would have posted such, you’d be banned from this site for racism and if outed to the company, you’d likely be answering to HR...

Laker24
06-20-2018, 04:25 PM
I'll believe that the left cares about children when they stop supporting ripping them from the womb.

So are you anti abortion? You are anti abortion but you support separating babies and toddlers from their parents? Interesting moral compass. Trump just stated it “felt wrong” and wasn’t good policy. You should get some kind of award for being even less heartless than the Donald.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 04:26 PM
It is a lack of compassion. Using your numbers 2000 kids were separated from their parents. Funny that a lot of you guys consider yourselves to be good Christians. I wonder which side of this argument would Jesus take? Mother Theresa? The pope? Maybe you are right. Punish those toddlers.

Again, reading comprehension! I didn’t give any numbers. And no one’s religious beliefs were ever mentioned but of course you went there automatically. The difference between us is that I don’t let my compassion for the innocent children obstruct my critical thinking skills or cloud my view of the bigger picture.

Here, I’ll spell it out for you again...I feel terrible for the children. Do I wish that every child affected could stay with their family, of course. Unfortunately, they have criminals for parents and they chose to break our laws. There are repercussions for that and the fact that they chose, poorly I might add, to bring their children with them doesn’t waive their responsibility. But, as always, it’s always someone else’s fault that they broke the law.

Laker24
06-20-2018, 04:29 PM
Would you still be disturbed if it was an old black guy instead? If you would have posted such, you’d be banned from this site for racism and if outed to the company, you’d likely be answering to HR...

You aren’t so bright are you? The point was somebody who had never faced discrimination and had every door open to them in life (typical white male) took pleasure in an impoverished minority child being separated from her family.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 04:29 PM
So are you anti abortion? You are anti abortion but you support separating babies and toddlers from their parents? Interesting moral compass. Trump just stated it “felt wrong” and wasn’t good policy. You should get some kind of award for being even less heartless than the Donald.

Well, since you asked now (even after making assumptions), yes, I’m anti-abortion. And if you read my other dozen or so posts nowhere did I say I was for separating the kids from their families. BUT, it’s an unfortunate consequence for their idiot parents putting them in that position.

BMEP100
06-20-2018, 04:30 PM
It is a lack of compassion. Using your numbers 2000 kids were separated from their parents. Funny that a lot of you guys consider yourselves to be good Christians. I wonder which side of this argument would Jesus take? Mother Theresa? The pope? Maybe you are right. Punish those toddlers.

So what's your answer to this problem?

In the US, like every other country on earth, it is illegal to enter the country without permission. It is a crime. A judge in California ruled during Obama, that kids can not be incarcerated with their parents.

So do we just lock up the parents, and leave the kids wandering in the desert?

The current detention facilities (same ones Obama used) may look bad, but they are the most compassionate thing we can do currently on such a large scale. Shelter, food, medicine in conditions that are in many cases better than what they left.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 04:31 PM
You’re blaming the process and not who is actually at fault...the terrible parents. I have 5 children and I promise you that I would NEVER put my kids in that position.

Laker24
06-20-2018, 04:32 PM
Again, reading comprehension! I didn’t give any numbers. And no one’s religious beliefs were ever mentioned but of course you went there automatically. The difference between us is that I don’t let my compassion for the innocent children obstruct my critical thinking skills or cloud my view of the bigger picture.

Here, I’ll spell it out for you again...I feel terrible for the children. Do I wish that every child affected could stay with their family, of course. Unfortunately, they have criminals for parents and they chose to break our laws. There are repercussions for that and the fact that they chose, poorly I might add, to bring their children with them doesn’t waive their responsibility. But, as always, it’s always someone else’s fault that they broke the law.

Even your president Donald Trump realizes there is a difference between the average criminal being separated from their children and a Central American family trying to escape poverty. Maybe you should work harder on your critical thinking skills.

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 04:35 PM
Even your president Donald Trump realizes there is a difference between the average criminal being separated from their children and a Central American family trying to escape poverty. Maybe you should work harder on your critical thinking skills.

Lol, whatever dude. I’m done here. You’re only going to hear what you want to hear. There is a legal way to enter our country as millions have done before. They made a choice. A bad one at that. Now they pay the price. The system isn’t perfect but the blame is theirs.

Dueces!

MarineGrunt
06-20-2018, 04:37 PM
You aren’t so bright are you? The point was somebody who had never faced discrimination and had every door open to them in life (typical white male) took pleasure in an impoverished minority child being separated from her family.

Lol... yeah. I remember all those doors flying wide open for me all right! Ah, yes. You have it all figured out!

And for the record I knew exactly what you meant, just wanted you to prove that YOU were the real bigot here.

badflaps
06-20-2018, 04:38 PM
As far as the Hondurans are concerned maybe 40% can't read or write and have little work ethic. I wish you well Estados Unidos.

BMEP100
06-20-2018, 04:42 PM
It is a lack of compassion..... I wonder which side of this argument would Jesus take? Mother Theresa? The pope? Maybe you are right. Punish those toddlers.

The Pope lives in opulence in a sovereign walled city patrolled by armed guards with automatic weapons. Try breaking in there with your kids and see what happens.

Surely they must have room for a few more hypocrites.

How many illegal kids are shacked up in your house right now?

Oh btw, haven't heard of the Vatican taking in any of the Syrians or Palestinian masses illegally entering Italy.

.

Laker24
06-20-2018, 04:54 PM
I have no problem with deporting families. Separating very young children from their parents is unusually cruel

captjns
06-20-2018, 04:56 PM
As far as the Hondurans are concerned maybe 40% can't read or write and have little work ethic. I wish you well Estados Unidos.

The report below contradicts your figure. I’ve overnighted in Tegucigalpa and San Pedro Sula... Of course is was many years ago before they blew the top of the mountain in Tegucigalpa for the faint of heart. Anyway... as I recall... great people... friendly. But like I wrote... my last flight to Honduras was 14 years ago.

https://knoema.com/atlas/Honduras/topics/Education/Literacy/Adult-literacy-rate

Name User
06-20-2018, 04:57 PM
It is a lack of compassion. Using your numbers 2000 kids were separated from their parents. Funny that a lot of you guys consider yourselves to be good Christians. I wonder which side of this argument would Jesus take? Mother Theresa? The pope? Maybe you are right. Punish those toddlers.

I voted for Hillary. And Obama (twice). I don't watch Faux News.

So, you know what "side" I'm coming from.

But our lefties are getting crazy. Seriously. I am pro-immigration but not pro-just-show-up-immigration. It's impossible to cry about 2000 kids when tens of thousands are killed every year in abortions. Yes, I'm pro-abortion, but dude you seriously can't see the hypocrisy here from our side and the media that represents them?

The parents or those crossing with them committed a crime. There is no middle ground here. This is just the next stupid thing the left is trying to rally their base with.

Don't fall for it. Do your own reading and unbiased research.

I would be completely open to reverting the "birthright" clause in the constitution. It's causing a lot of what is happening.

Personally, I love immigrants. IMO the vast majority are better people than our regular citizens. They work harder, they treat people better, they respect others more. My wife and her family came to this country legally.

But first gen immigrants have an issue assimilating in our culture. Too many of them, especially from just a few countries, will change the landscape forever, as they have in many cities already.

MarineGrunt
06-20-2018, 04:58 PM
I have no problem with deporting families. Separating very young children from their parents is unusually cruel

I agree. Their parents are the ones that broke the law, the kids haven’t. Keep them together until the parents are prosecuted, then send them all back. SECURE THE EFFING BORDER, and make LEGAL immigration much easier, but still selective.

AZFlyer
06-20-2018, 05:00 PM
I have no problem with deporting families. Separating very young children from their parents is unusually cruel
Parents willfully putting their children into a situation that can cause them to be separated is unusually cruel.

AZFlyer
06-20-2018, 05:03 PM
Even your president Donald Trump realizes there is a difference between the average criminal being separated from their children and a Central American family trying to escape poverty. Maybe you should work harder on your critical thinking skills.
And the truth comes out. Escaping poverty is not cause for refugee status or asylum.

badflaps
06-20-2018, 05:03 PM
The report below contradicts your figure. I’ve overnighted in Tegucigalpa and San Pedro Sula... Of course is was many years ago before they blew the top of the mountain in Tegucigalpa for the faint of heart. Anyway... as I recall... great people... friendly. But like I wrote... my last flight to Honduras was 14 years ago.

https://knoema.com/atlas/Honduras/topics/Education/Literacy/Adult-literacy-rate
Well then, there ya go. What could go wrong. But I don't think you'll get many takers on an overnight in Tegus.

AZFlyer
06-20-2018, 05:07 PM
The report below contradicts your figure. I’ve overnighted in Tegucigalpa and San Pedro Sula... Of course is was many years ago before they blew the top of the mountain in Tegucigalpa for the faint of heart. Anyway... as I recall... great people... friendly. But like I wrote... my last flight to Honduras was 14 years ago.

https://knoema.com/atlas/Honduras/topics/Education/Literacy/Adult-literacy-rate
The same website shows "Adult Female Illiteracy" at 50%. Hmm.
https://knoema.com/atlas/Honduras/topics/Education/Literacy/Adult-female-illiteracy

captjns
06-20-2018, 05:07 PM
Well then, there ya go. What could go wrong.

No coffee in the morning?

Laker24
06-20-2018, 05:12 PM
I agree. Their parents are the ones that broke the law, the kids haven’t. Keep them together until the parents are prosecuted, then send them all back. SECURE THE EFFING BORDER, and make LEGAL immigration much easier, but still selective.

I agree with you 100% on that. We have some common ground. I’m all for securing the border. Detaining and deporting if needed. The thing I object to is a 4 or 5 year old potentially never seeing their parents again. I didn’t know my address or phone number when I was 5 years old. I’m surprised by parents who support the policy of potentially forever separating a child from his or her parents. I don’t care who you are that’s wrong. It’s not “playing the lack of compassion card” it’s the reality of what was happening. Thankfully Trump made the correct call and put a stop to it.

BMEP100
06-20-2018, 05:22 PM
I have no problem with deporting families. Separating very young children from their parents is unusually cruel

So exactly how do you do that? I mean where do you house the children? Put them in holding pens with the adult men, some of whom are certainly repeat criminals who have been deported for violent crimes. The CBP just doesn't have a bunch of secure little apartments waiting for occupancy by illegals.

As for the what the Pope thinks of children, watch this video of the
priest slap the snot out of a toddler
https://youtu.be/7s_LMSKaek8

Name User
06-20-2018, 06:34 PM
I agree with you 100% on that. We have some common ground. I’m all for securing the border. Detaining and deporting if needed. The thing I object to is a 4 or 5 year old potentially never seeing their parents again. I didn’t know my address or phone number when I was 5 years old. I’m surprised by parents who support the policy of potentially forever separating a child from his or her parents. I don’t care who you are that’s wrong. It’s not “playing the lack of compassion card” it’s the reality of what was happening. Thankfully Trump made the correct call and put a stop to it.

Well for starters it's not indefinite. Unless the parent is sent to jail. Which typically only happens for repeat boarder crossers.

But, if parents of kids in the US went to jail, they would be separated too. So I don't follow your logic.

CBP does all they can to find living relatives in the US to hand these kids off to while they wait.

SheepDogg
06-20-2018, 06:42 PM
You aren’t so bright are you? The point was somebody who had never faced discrimination and had every door open to them in life (typical white male) took pleasure in an impoverished minority child being separated from her family.

A TYPICAL white male has NEVER faced discrimination and had EVERY door open to them? Out of curiosity, could you please tell me how you personally would define the words Prejudice and Racism.


Based on your personal statements above, I contend that you are exhibiting prejudice tendencies and are a racist.

Buzzlightyear
06-20-2018, 06:46 PM
you really can't figure it out? American (as well as world) public opinion was firmly against this policy. You may not realize this if all you watch is Fox News. And just because you and all your pilot buddies think it's true, the rest of the country may not feel the same way.

The exact same argument can be made against the coastal population centers that espouse far left political views.

Buzzlightyear
06-20-2018, 06:52 PM
Apparently it is for you. What should we do with the Statue of Liberty? What about the asylum seekers? Did this little girl deserve to possibly never see her mother again? If your answer is yes then you are one cold-hearted SOB.
It should be bookended on the west coast with a Statue of Responsibility. Any Republic worth it’s salt should have a balance of these two.

GHOST
06-20-2018, 07:57 PM
American Airlines did a good thing today. If you are upset by this, it says more about YOU than anything else. Like your ancestors, again you are on the wrong side of history.

PRS Guitars
06-20-2018, 08:10 PM
I don’t really have a strong opinion on this issue, but I’d prefer my employer to stay out of politics not related to the business.

Slaphappy
06-20-2018, 08:42 PM
You aren’t so bright are you? The point was somebody who had never faced discrimination and had every door open to them in life (typical white male) took pleasure in an impoverished minority child being separated from her family.

These days being a white male is minus in the age of affirmau action and ect. Sound like the indoctrination worked well on you.

These kids were separated because theit parents were in jail awaiting trial. Now they will be sitting in jail with their parents.

Slaphappy
06-20-2018, 09:02 PM
American Airlines did a good thing today. If you are upset by this, it says more about YOU than anything else. Like your ancestors, again you are on the wrong side of history.

Funny, there sure are a lot of people trying to get into a country my ancestors built.

nAAtive
06-20-2018, 10:14 PM
I don’t really have a strong opinion on this issue, but I’d prefer my employer to stay out of politics not related to the business.

Bingo. People are arguing over something a big corporation has no right sticking their nose in.

303flyboy
06-20-2018, 10:33 PM
Really... but yet, when it comes down to large corporations contributing to campaigns you are ok with companies being “people” entitled to their own opinion. (Citizens united ruling). Interesting 🤔

Crucero
06-20-2018, 11:01 PM
Really... but yet, when it comes down to large corporations contributing to campaigns you are ok with companies being “people” entitled to their own opinion. (Citizens united ruling). Interesting 🤔

Nailed it!!

Buzzlightyear
06-21-2018, 03:00 AM
American Airlines did a good thing today. If you are upset by this, it says more about YOU than anything else. Like your ancestors, again you are on the wrong side of history.
There is a process. To say those who have issues about people not following the process and the law of the land is disingenuous. Equating it to people who did things properly for themselves and their family just isn’t a good argument. You’re going round and round here.

meyers9163
06-21-2018, 03:29 AM
American Airlines did a good thing today. If you are upset by this, it says more about YOU than anything else. Like your ancestors, again you are on the wrong side of history.

Did the company fire the FA for sharing information about a flight that isn’t something that should be shared? If so I missed that story. Maybe next they can start with the FAs who are screen shoting pics of their famous paxs and posting their names on their social media too.

That all is a blatant violation of company policy. So guess I’ll wait to hear that the company did the RIGHT thing today.

Bozo the pilot
06-21-2018, 04:01 AM
Apparently it is for you. What should we do with the Statue of Liberty? What about the asylum seekers? Did this little girl deserve to possibly never see her mother again? If your answer is yes then you are one cold-hearted SOB.

Did you forget your violin? Why are these parents putting their children in harms way to begin with? Shame on THEM.
I bet you were silent throughout the Obama debacle but now get involved. Typical libtard.:rolleyes:

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 04:35 AM
Did you forget your violin? Why are these parents putting their children in harms way to begin with? Shame on THEM.Could you be more ignorant of what these people have been through? Your use of epithets is such an obvious case of projection that it is sad. Good luck dealing with your issues.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 04:40 AM
These days being a white male is (a) minus in the age of affirmau (sic) action and ect (sic).The poor white American male. Got it. We are so persecuted. UFB.

meyers9163
06-21-2018, 06:27 AM
The poor white American male. Got it. We are so persecuted. UFB.

There’s ways we can change your skin color for money. MJ did it. If you are so embarrassed by being a white male let us help you change how you look.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 06:50 AM
If you are so embarrassed by being a white male let us help you change how you look.Not at all, but I can see how someone like YOU might have assumed that.

Name User
06-21-2018, 08:22 AM
It's pretty much been confirmed that we hire more minorties than their overall % in the population so the slant is obviously in their favor at this time.

What that leaves out is the hurdles they have to overcome to reach the phase where they are major airline material. A large % of blacks come from lower income households, probably even single parent, and to buck the odds and to achieve what they have is a pretty big deal and should be congratulated. They worked a lot harder than many of us did to get where they are today.

Chief Brody
06-21-2018, 08:34 AM
Agreed. I’m always surprised how little compassion is displayed by some of our fellow pilots. As much as we want the world to be black and white most issues fall in the gray zone. Even more disturbing is flying a trip with a an old white guy making $350k+ a year who seems to get pleasure out of hearing stories about little kids like this girl. Maybe he thinks that crying toddler from the slums is just a snowflake who needs to learn a lesson. Some of us forget our ancestors probably arrived on a boat cold, hungry, and poor.

These parents are just trying to provide a life for their kids. We would all do the same. Deport them sure. But tearing families apart is cruel.

Any particular reason you said "old white guy"? Could an old black woman not have the same view point and also make 350K a year? You sound like a racist.

Laker24
06-21-2018, 08:48 AM
It's pretty much been confirmed that we hire more minorties than their overall % in the population so the slant is obviously in their favor at this time.

Where did you get your data? I found different numbers.

From aapilots. Just 15% of AAL new hires are minorities. The general population of minorities in the USA is roughly 38%. To put it another way 61% of the nations population are white yet 85% of American Airlines new hire pilots are white.

Another interesting data point; 6% of new hires are female.

RhinoBallAuto
06-21-2018, 09:47 AM
Where did you get your data? I found different numbers.

From aapilots. Just 15% of AAL new hires are minorities. The general population of minorities in the USA is roughly 38%. To put it another way 61% of the nations population are white yet 85% of American Airlines new hire pilots are white.

Another interesting data point; 6% of new hires are female.

aapilots just reports on one employee group...I won't put words in Name User's mouth, but I interpreted his statement to mean all hiring. FWIW...

Santini
06-21-2018, 09:52 AM
Sorry. Neither Bush or Obama systematically separated families. Thankfully, even Trump has now done a 180.

Ehhhhhhh. Sorry, Hans, wrong guess. This has gone on since Bush 43 and there are good reasons for it.

Don’t open your ignorant piehole until you learn the facts. Next time you’re in KBRO/KHRL/KMFE I’ll give you a tour and show you what goes on down here. Many of these kids are kidnap/sex traffic victims being used by illegals to game the system on detention—and other things far worse.

We have to get control of this border by hook or by crook for the sake of all involved—on both sides.

Name User
06-21-2018, 09:56 AM
Where did you get your data? I found different numbers.

From aapilots. Just 15% of AAL new hires are minorities. The general population of minorities in the USA is roughly 38%. To put it another way 61% of the nations population are white yet 85% of American Airlines new hire pilots are white.

Another interesting data point; 6% of new hires are female.

Sorry I wrote "population" but meant "pilot population".

Roughly 3% of ATP holders are black and 4% are female. So they hire at a higher rate.

Also the numbers are skewed by all our flows. If you look at just OTS hiring the % is even higher.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 10:03 AM
Many of these kids are kidnap/sex traffic victims being used by illegals to game the systemOver 99% making the claim have been determined to actually be families.

Slaphappy
06-21-2018, 10:16 AM
Over 99% making the claim have been determined to actually be families.

How about show some proof?

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 10:50 AM
How about show some proof?FACT CHECK OF THE DAY

Kirstjen Nielsen Justifies Family Separation by Pointing to Increase in Fraud. But the Data Is Very Limited.
President Trump’s homeland security secretary said the number of immigrants fraudulently posing as families has tripled. That’s true per government data. But those cases make up less than 1 percent of families apprehended at the border.

Linda Qiu
By Linda Qiu
June 18, 2018

WHAT WAS SAID
“I’m sad to say that from October 2017 to this February, we have seen a staggering 315 percent increase in illegal aliens fraudulently using children to pose as family units to gain entry into this country.”
— Kirstjen Nielsen, speaking Monday to the National Sheriffs’ Association

THE FACTS
This needs context.

Kirstjen Nielsen, the secretary of homeland security, suggested in two appearances on Monday that the Trump administration policy to separate children from their parents at the border was justified, in part, to prevent smugglers from posing as families to take advantage of a “get-out-of-jail-free card.”

But characterizing the increase of this type of fraud as “staggering” is misleading. The data reflects a period of less than two years, making it difficult to draw a meaningful historical comparison. And the instances of fraud make up less than 1 percent of families apprehended at the border.

The numbers Ms. Nielsen cites are correct. Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security, told The New York Times that there were 46 cases of fraudulent family claims in the 2017 fiscal year, which began in October 2016 and ended in September 2017. In just the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year, there were 191 cases — a 315 percent increase.

But those instances of family fraud are a tiny fraction of the total number of families apprehended at the southwestern border: 0.06 percent of nearly 76,000 families in the 2017 fiscal year and 0.6 percent of 31,000 families apprehended in the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year.

Further, Ms. Waldman said the department had only recently begun compiling family-fraud data, so a comparison with earlier administrations’ data would not yet be possible.

Source: Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection

atpcliff
06-21-2018, 11:15 AM
UAL announced they are doing the same on this situation as AA.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 11:51 AM
Fact-Checking the Trump Administration’s Case for Child Separation at the Border

The president, the attorney general and the secretary of homeland security have used lots of figures and interpretations of recent history to explain recent policy changes. Not all of it has been accurate.

Linda Qiu
By Linda Qiu
June 19, 2018

President Trump and top administration officials have continued to defend their practice of breaking up families who arrive at the border in the face of bipartisan outcry, criticism from the United Nations and a lawsuit.

They’ve denied the existence of a policy and that they were the first to enforce it, pointed to surges in illegal immigration and fraud, trotted out decades-old court cases and human trafficking laws, blamed Democrats and even cited the Bible.

Here are their defenses, fact-checked.

WHAT WAS SAID
“We have to get the Democrats to go ahead and work with us. Because as a result of Democrat-supported loopholes in our federal laws, most illegal immigrant families and minors from Central America who arrive unlawfully at the border cannot be detained together or removed together, only released. These are crippling loopholes that cause family separation, which we don’t want.”
— Mr. Trump, in remarks on Tuesday to the National Federation of Independent Business

False.

Mr. Trump is again wrongly claiming that Democrats are responsible for “loopholes” that necessitate breaking apart families at the border.
The White House cites a 1997 court settlement and a 2008 law as these loopholes. Neither mandates detaining parents and separating children from their families.

Under the court settlement, the government agreed to quickly release children under an established preference that ranks for custody. In 2016, an appeals court held that the government must do the same for children who arrive with families.

The 2008 law, the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, requires the government to transfer children from countries other than Mexico and Canada to the care and custody of the Department of Health and Human Services and then place them in formal removal proceedings. It does not apply to children who travel with family.

Mr. Trump is also wrong that Central American families who enter the United States illegally cannot be removed together. Like individual adults, families with children can be placed under a process known as expedited removal — unless they seek asylum.

Through expedited removal, immigration officials can quickly remove an unauthorized immigrant from the country without having to go through an immigration court. If the families do make a claim of credible fear and are denied, they are then placed into removal proceedings.

As Mr. Trump said, his administration could release one or both parents with their children. But it has instead chosen to prosecute people who cross the border illegally under a new “zero tolerance” policy, leading to the separation of children from their parents.

WHAT WAS SAID
“We now have thousands of judges — border judges — thousands and thousands. And, by the way, when we release the people, they never come back to the judge anyway.”
— Mr. Trump

This is exaggerated.

Mr. Trump rejected a proposal from Senator Ted Cruz, Republican of Texas, to end family separation by hiring more immigration judges by suggesting that doing so would be useless.

There are about 350 immigration judges in the United States, according to the Justice Department, not “thousands” of “border judges.” (There are just 1,300 sitting federal judges in all.)

Mr. Trump is also wrong that immigrants “never” appear for a hearing before an immigration court. Around 20 to 40 percent of immigrants have failed to show up at a hearing over the past five years, data from the Justice Department shows.

WHAT WAS SAID
“The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families at the — They absolutely did.”
— The secretary of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen, in a news conference on Monday

This is misleading.

While previous administrations did break up families, it was rare, according to former officials and immigration experts. The Trump administration, by contrast, has knowingly enacted the practice that some officials have characterized as a deterrence against illegal entry.

In 2005, President George W. Bush introduced Operation Streamline, which, like the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy, referred for prosecution immigrants illegally crossing the border. Unlike the Trump administration, the Bush administration made an exception for parents with children.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security could not provide data on how many children were separated from their parents in previous administrations.

Jeh Johnson, Ms. Nielsen’s predecessor under President Barack Obama, said in a recent interview with NPR that it was possible that families were separated, “but not as a matter of policy or practice.”

“I can’t say that it never happened,” Mr. Johnson said. “There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency. There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child.”

Cecilia Muñoz, Mr. Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, told The New York Times that the Obama administration had decided against separating children from their parents because “the morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are.”

A 2016 report from the American Immigration Council details the stories of children detained with one parent, but separated from the other. One woman was detained with her children and separated from her nephew, who was transferred to the care of a foster family.

But neither the Bush nor Obama administration had a policy that had the effect of widespread family separation, said Sarah Pierce of the Migration Policy Institute. “Nothing like what the Trump administration is doing has occurred before,” she said.

WHAT WAS SAID
“In the last five months, we have a 314 percent increase in adults and children arriving at the border, fraudulently claiming to be a family unit.”
— Ms. Nielsen

This requires context.

As The Times has previously reported, Ms. Nielsen’s statistical claim is correct, according to figures released from the Department of Homeland Security. But it is not evidence of rampant fraud.
There were 46 cases of fraudulent family claims in the 2017 fiscal year. In just the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year, there were 191 cases. That is a 315 percent increase, but the comparison is not year to year. And those instances make up less than 1 percent of the families apprehended at the border.

WHAT WAS SAID
“D.H.S. is not separating families legitimately seeking asylum at ports of entry.”
— Ms. Nielsen

“If they enter the country at a port of entry and there are many of those along the border, they are not violating the law. The mother or father in that circumstance would not be prosecuted and the families are staying together. They’re — presumably, they are claiming an asylum and that’s — they would not be prosecuted and not be separated.”
— Attorney General Jeff Sessions, in an interview on Monday with Fox News

This requires context.

The American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit on behalf of a Congolese woman who says her daughter was taken from her when she applied for asylum at a port of entry.

As The Times and others have reported, asylum seekers are also being turned away when they do present themselves at ports of entry. Even when immigrants improperly cross the border, they can still legally seek asylum.

But the administration’s zero-tolerance policy subjects all who cross the border illegally, including asylum seekers, to prosecution.

Slaphappy
06-21-2018, 12:21 PM
But the administration’s zero-tolerance policy subjects all who cross the border illegally, including asylum seekers, to prosecution.

This right is why I support it.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 12:24 PM
This right is why I support it.Let us know when you manage to form a coherent paragraph. We won't hold our breath. Too bad you can't upload grunts & groans. It would save you a lot of time and effort.

Chief Brody
06-21-2018, 12:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5TGYvJHbA

Chief Brody
06-21-2018, 01:14 PM
Virtue Signalling-

To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are than everybody else.

TED: I see Oscar has changed his profile picture to show his support for refugees.

SCOTT: Has he donated money or time? Is he giving English lessons? Is he making a room available? Has he cancelled all contracts with the federal government?

TED: No, no, he's just virtue signalling.

Virtue Signalling ...

Buzzlightyear
06-21-2018, 01:43 PM
Let us know when you manage to form a coherent paragraph. We won't hold our breath. Too bad you can't upload grunts & groans. It would save you a lot of time and effort.

Why the need for name calling and insults? We’re all big boys here, let’s stop the childish tactics. It’s ok if people don’t agree. It’s one of the great flavors of life.

Slaphappy
06-21-2018, 01:49 PM
Let us know when you manage to form a coherent paragraph. We won't hold our breath. Too bad you can't upload grunts & groans. It would save you a lot of time and effort.

You're one to talk.

terks43
06-21-2018, 01:55 PM
I'll believe that the left cares about children when they stop supporting ripping them from the womb.

And I’ll believe the right cares about children when that actually show that they give a damn about them once they are out of that womb. But nothing teaches a poor kid not to be poor like taking away their federally subsidized lunch at school leaving them to spend the day hungry. Because it’s completely the child’s fault that their parents are poor. Give me a break you right wing nut jobs are some of the biggest hypocrites out there, don’t even try to pretend that you give a rats ass about a poor child, heaven forbid that child be a minority

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 02:17 PM
Why the need for name calling and insults?You're right. So you must really disagree with all the President's name calling and racist things he says and does, right?

Chief Brody
06-21-2018, 02:21 PM
And I’ll believe the right cares about children when that actually show that they give a damn about them once they are out of that womb. But nothing teaches a poor kid not to be poor like taking away their federally subsidized lunch at school leaving them to spend the day hungry. Because it’s completely the child’s fault that their parents are poor. Give me a break you right wing nut jobs are some of the biggest hypocrites out there, don’t even try to pretend that you give a rats ass about a poor child, heaven forbid that child be a minority

Who took a child's school lunch away?? Must have been one of those Trump deplorables.

Slaphappy
06-21-2018, 02:29 PM
And I’ll believe the right cares about children when that actually show that they give a damn about them once they are out of that womb. But nothing teaches a poor kid not to be poor like taking away their federally subsidized lunch at school leaving them to spend the day hungry. Because it’s completely the child’s fault that their parents are poor. Give me a break you right wing nut jobs are some of the biggest hypocrites out there, don’t even try to pretend that you give a rats ass about a poor child, heaven forbid that child be a minority

It's not our responsibility to take care of a child, that's the responsibility of the parent. We just don't think murdering an unborn child is a good idea because it's an inconvenience.

Buzzlightyear
06-21-2018, 02:33 PM
You're right. So you must really disagree with all the President's name calling and racist things he says and does, right?

You’re right. He can be a bully. He should stop. Tweeeting less would be a plus too.

terks43
06-21-2018, 03:07 PM
Who took a child's school lunch away?? Must have been one of those Trump deplorables.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article125040124.html

terks43
06-21-2018, 03:15 PM
It's not our responsibility to take care of a child, that's the responsibility of the parent. We just don't think murdering an unborn child is a good idea because it's an inconvenience.

You heard it here first people, poor children deserve to starve because they have committed the crime of being born into a poor family. Silly kids should’ve known better then to be born poor. I mean if a 7 year old isn’t working for their state provided meal then they are really just a burden on society.

Bozo the pilot
06-21-2018, 05:34 PM
You're right. So you must really disagree with all the President's name calling and racist things he says and does, right?

Wa- You want some cheese with that whine?
Grow tf up.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 06:48 PM
Wa- You want some cheese with that whine? Grow tf up.Another rocket scientist aptly calling himself, Bozo. No wonder you defend DJT.

CVGair
06-21-2018, 07:06 PM
Another rocket scientist aptly calling himself, Bozo. No wonder you defend DJT.


"Fly to live" you are part of the problem not the solution.
Baiting people, name calling, partial truths, etc.. We need pro/con factual real debate on the issues, from unbiased statistical sources, not your antics.

SheepDogg
06-21-2018, 07:23 PM
What that leaves out is the hurdles they have to overcome to reach the phase where they are major airline material. A large % of blacks come from lower income households, probably even single parent, and to buck the odds and to achieve what they have is a pretty big deal and should be congratulated. They worked a lot harder than many of us did to get where they are today.

I agree. I just wish they would stop blaming others for the obstacles put in place by their own friends and family.

But anyway, this thread is about AA decision to inject politics into it's business practices and you can put me in the group that wishes that they and all companies stick to business and stay out of political matters including holidays. There is a good reason that this country's forefathers required a separation of Church and State within it's Government. I believe that Business Entities should also be separated from Government as well as Church (Social, Spiritual, Ideological ) issues.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 07:24 PM
"Fly to live" you are part of the problem not the solution. Baiting people, name calling, partial truths, etc.. We need pro/con factual real debate on the issues, from unbiased statistical sources, not your antics.Sounds like a description of the President who just separated 2,300 children from their parents and is now blaming it on everyone, except himself. An incredible example of lying, racism, utter incompetence and heartlessness.

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 07:27 PM
I agree. I just wish they would stop blaming others for the obstacles put in place by their own friends and family.Who is they?

SheepDogg
06-21-2018, 07:31 PM
Who is they?

Those individuals who like to blame all their problems on anyone but the true source of their troubles. Those that think that the only reason anyone treats them badly is because of their skin color, gender, sexual identity, etc etc. People like you. Have a good night ;)

Count Dracula
06-21-2018, 07:32 PM
I don’t really have a strong opinion on this issue, but I’d prefer my employer to stay out of politics not related to the business.



Your employer stay out of politics? [emoji23]
Have you ever heard the word “Lobbyist?”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Flytolive
06-21-2018, 07:37 PM
Those individuals who like to blame all their problems on anyone but the true source of their troubles.I know exactly what you mean. All these people who blame their lives not turning out like they had hoped on others like immigrants and minorities instead of admitting their own personal failings and looking in the mirror.

meyers9163
06-21-2018, 09:33 PM
I know exactly what you mean. All these people who blame their lives not turning out like they had hoped on others like immigrants and minorities instead of admitting their own personal failings and looking in the mirror.

Illegal immigrants. Odd how you leave that out. Funny how it’s ok to have abortions but you’re worried about these kids. Identity politics gets old you know. But hey keep on with your half truths. The FA who posted such deserves to be fired immediately. Guess you find it ok to share information on passengers when it fits your narrative but yet is against company policy. Glad they’re trusted for possible military flights. They obviously know how to keep information private and secure.

Santini
06-21-2018, 09:35 PM
Over 99% making the claim have been determined to actually be families.


Wrong.


My family works for USBP and has since 1970. Fraud, sexual abuse, etc. is RAMPANT among these illegals. It’s CHILD ABUSE by THEM, not us.

Also, this has been policy since CLINTON (Flores Settlement, 1997). The kids cannot be thrown in with rapists and sex traffickers. To do so is the true inhumanity.

Besides, “If it saves just one life.” You idiots on the left are willing to violate the civil liberties of MILLIONS of Americans “for the children” so this policy should be no big deal for you if you’re gonna’ be consistent. After all, 1% is more than just one child.

Derp.

/Thread

BackintheLPA
06-22-2018, 05:09 AM
Another rocket scientist aptly calling himself, Bozo. No wonder you defend DJT.

Finally the truth comes out! It’s nothing more than faux outrage. The father of the girl in the picture has come out and stated the child was NEVER separated from the mother. The entire ordeal is the result of the stupid mother jumping the border for a job. She wasn’t fleeing violence.

This is a prime example of why the media has lost all credibility because they no longer value a pretense of objectivity. Trump has exposed them for what the are.

There are 3 eternal truths when attempting to have a discussion with a leftist...
1. They are disingenuous people. Their actions never match their words.

2. They resort to emotion over logic. They will sacrifice objectivity for the narrative every time.

3. Personal accountability never enters the discussion. No one is ever accountable for their own actions. Everyone is just a victim of circumstance.

It truly is a mental disorder!

Flytolive
06-22-2018, 06:18 AM
Wrong. My family works for USBP and has since 1970. Fraud, sexual abuse, etc. is RAMPANT among these illegals. It’s CHILD ABUSE by THEM, not us.

Also, this has been policy since CLINTON (Flores Settlement, 1997). The kids cannot be thrown in with rapists and sex traffickers. To do so is the true inhumanity.You are simply incorrect on both counts regardless of whether you have a CBP relative.

The Flores decision addresses unaccompanied minors and the maximum time (20 days) you could hold any detainees. This mess of separating 2,300 children from their parents was created by the Trump Administration taking discretion to prioritize their immigration case away from US attorneys that is otherwise known as zero tolerance. It is amazing how unprepared they were for the easily predictable repercussions of their new policy. Gross mismanagement and utter incompetence.

meyers9163
06-22-2018, 07:04 AM
You are simply incorrect on both counts regardless of whether you have a CBP relative.

The Flores decision addresses unaccompanied minors and the maximum time (20 days) you could hold any detainees. This mess of separating 2,300 children from their parents was created by the Trump Administration taking discretion to prioritize their immigration case away from US attorneys that is otherwise known as zero tolerance. It is amazing how unprepared they were for the easily predictable repercussions of their new policy. Gross mismanagement and utter incompetence.

Clearly you know it all. Odd how you are a pilot and not working in that industry? But hey we all love know it alls. Bet you’re an absolute blast to fly with as you know everything and have all the answers. Man I wish we all could be like you. So jealous.

Flytolive
06-22-2018, 07:22 AM
But hey we all love know it alls.We, pilots, definitely are confident in our views on a myriad of non-pilot related issues. The key to avoiding self-delusion is critical thinking and always checking your premises with facts instead of repeating unverified hearsay.


FACT CHECK OF THE DAY

Kirstjen Nielsen Justifies Family Separation by Pointing to Increase in Fraud. But the Data Is Very Limited.

President Trump’s homeland security secretary said the number of immigrants fraudulently posing as families has tripled. That’s true per government data. But those cases make up less than 1 percent of families apprehended at the border.

Linda Qiu
By Linda Qiu
June 18, 2018

WHAT WAS SAID
“I’m sad to say that from October 2017 to this February, we have seen a staggering 315 percent increase in illegal aliens fraudulently using children to pose as family units to gain entry into this country.”
— Kirstjen Nielsen, speaking Monday to the National Sheriffs’ Association

THE FACTS
This needs context.

Kirstjen Nielsen, the secretary of homeland security, suggested in two appearances on Monday that the Trump administration policy to separate children from their parents at the border was justified, in part, to prevent smugglers from posing as families to take advantage of a “get-out-of-jail-free card.”

But characterizing the increase of this type of fraud as “staggering” is misleading. The data reflects a period of less than two years, making it difficult to draw a meaningful historical comparison. And the instances of fraud make up less than 1 percent of families apprehended at the border.

The numbers Ms. Nielsen cites are correct. Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security, told The New York Times that there were 46 cases of fraudulent family claims in the 2017 fiscal year, which began in October 2016 and ended in September 2017. In just the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year, there were 191 cases — a 315 percent increase.

But those instances of family fraud are a tiny fraction of the total number of families apprehended at the southwestern border: 0.06 percent of nearly 76,000 families in the 2017 fiscal year and 0.6 percent of 31,000 families apprehended in the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year.

Further, Ms. Waldman said the department had only recently begun compiling family-fraud data, so a comparison with earlier administrations’ data would not yet be possible.

Source: Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection




WHAT WAS SAID
“We have to get the Democrats to go ahead and work with us. Because as a result of Democrat-supported loopholes in our federal laws, most illegal immigrant families and minors from Central America who arrive unlawfully at the border cannot be detained together or removed together, only released. These are crippling loopholes that cause family separation, which we don’t want.”

— Mr. Trump, in remarks on Tuesday to the National Federation of Independent Business

False.

Mr. Trump is again wrongly claiming that Democrats are responsible for “loopholes” that necessitate breaking apart families at the border.

The White House cites a 1997 court settlement and a 2008 law as these loopholes. Neither mandates detaining parents and separating children from their families.

Under the court settlement, the government agreed to quickly release children under an established preference that ranks for custody. In 2016, an appeals court held that the government must do the same for children who arrive with families.

The 2008 law, the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, requires the government to transfer children from countries other than Mexico and Canada to the care and custody of the Department of Health and Human Services and then place them in formal removal proceedings. It does not apply to children who travel with family.

Mr. Trump is also wrong that Central American families who enter the United States illegally cannot be removed together. Like individual adults, families with children can be placed under a process known as expedited removal — unless they seek asylum.

Through expedited removal, immigration officials can quickly remove an unauthorized immigrant from the country without having to go through an immigration court. If the families do make a claim of credible fear and are denied, they are then placed into removal proceedings.

As Mr. Trump said, his administration could release one or both parents with their children. But it has instead chosen to prosecute people who cross the border illegally under a new “zero tolerance” policy, leading to the separation of children from their parents.

ORDinary
06-22-2018, 11:05 AM
It's possible that protest like this swayed AA's and other airline's decision: https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/religious-leaders-implore-trump-white-house-stop-separating/story%3fid=55905666

C130driver
06-22-2018, 01:50 PM
Virtue Signalling-

To take a conspicuous but essentially useless action ostensibly to support a good cause but actually to show off how much more moral you are than everybody else.

TED: I see Oscar has changed his profile picture to show his support for refugees.

SCOTT: Has he donated money or time? Is he giving English lessons? Is he making a room available? Has he cancelled all contracts with the federal government?

TED: No, no, he's just virtue signalling.

Virtue Signalling ...

I’ll take it a step further; these people deep down know they don’t have the brain capacity to offer any logical solutions to the problem at hand so they componsate by using emotions or feelings.

And yes, conservatives can be guilty of it too!!

dawgdriver
06-22-2018, 01:59 PM
Agree or disagree, it's bad policy for corporations to make business decisions based on matters having nothing to do with the business itself. Social media driven emotional appeals and populist movements are usually a flash in the pan and often fraught with hidden agendas and facts yet to be discovered.

A wise board of directors understands their role in ensuring the shareholders interests are protected and stay clear of risks that come without reward.

These situations have a nasty habit of reversing course as facts begin to surface. At best, one side is appeased at the expense of the other, at worst, a hasty decision appears foolhardy and has permanent ramifications by the precedent set.

No one would have questioned AA in the absence of this very public, political stance.

Chris99
06-22-2018, 02:14 PM
I guess temporary family separation is much worse than letting the kids get turned over to human traffickers for flytolive since I don't recall him starting a thread in response to this article back in early 2016: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/obama-administration-placed-children-with-human-traffickers-report-says/2016/01/28/39465050-c542-11e5-9693-933a4d31bcc8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.16ed2f92e7e5. What would really speak volumes is if flytolive told us all about how he is a foster/adoptive parent who takes in kids who have been separated from their families. Maybe he can at least tell us how he takes time out off his busy schedule to fly down and protest the "inhumane" and "immoral" treatment of immigrants--possibly even volunteering to build shelters or something to that effect to make their lives more bearable. But I bet he lives in a gated community and is solely a social media warrior. Actions speak louder than words. The same goes for these airline CEOs who are ignoring the fact that many of the kids on these flights are being returned to family members as well.

How many calls have you made to your elected Representatives about the debacle that is US immigration policy flytolive? How many solutions have you offered? Or can you only just repost the same quotes over and over again? Don't you think that 99% figure is a little suspicious? I've got a bridge to sell you if you believe less than 1% of the families crossing the border aren't committing fraud in the process. The quote even says the data is not complete.

Families are voluntarily separating themselves to try to find a better life here (as in the case of the little girl on the Time Magazine cover and her mom), and I don't blame them for doing it. Parents are sending their children over miles of dangerous terrain with sexual predators, so they must be desperate. I can't even imagine doing this as a father. However, solving the immigration problem is not easy or else it would have been accomplished over twenty years ago. It's a messy job that most politicians do not want to touch. At least Trump is trying to enforce/follow the laws on the books and reengaging when mistakes are made. We're between a rock and a hard place with the options of curbing illegal immigration without appearing heartless. I'm sure you understand there are limited resources or you would be volunteering to house/support a bunch of these immigrants on your own property.

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Flytolive
06-22-2018, 02:59 PM
At least Trump is trying to enforce/follow the laws on the books and reengaging when mistakes are made.Wow! Those are some high standards for Presidential performance you have there. Should we require future Presidents to take a hippocratic oath? Let me guess. You were a bit tougher on the last one.

Chris99
06-22-2018, 03:08 PM
Wow! Those are some high standards for Presidential performance you have there. Should we require future Presidents to take a hippocratic oath? Let me guess. You were a bit tougher on the last one.

Way to avoid the main substance of my post. I suspected as much. I think Obama also tried to attack this problem in a way that stuck to the rule of law. He deported far more illegal immigrants than any other American president after all. Here's a little tidbit for you: I didn't vote for Trump, so you can place your stereotypes elsewhere. So do you have an answer to any of the questions I directed towards you or will you just continue to avoid them? I think I already know the answer...

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Flytolive
06-22-2018, 03:27 PM
I actually forwarded an idea to a reporter and biotech executive that they should use DNA testing to reunite the separated children and parents, and my elected reps are like-minded so they don't need to be called. But as you say "you can place your stereotypes elsewhere."

What is pertinent is your absurd statement.

At least Trump is trying to enforce/follow the laws on the books and reengaging when mistakes are made.

What the Trump administration did is inexcusable. Maybe he and his administration should have been "engaged" before making such a predictably heinous decision.

Chris99
06-22-2018, 03:43 PM
I actually forwarded an idea to a reporter and biotech executive that they should use DNA testing to reunite the separated children and parents, and my elected reps are like-minded so they don't need to be called. But as you say "you can place your stereotypes elsewhere."

What is pertinent is your absurd statement.



What the Trump administration did is inexcusable. Maybe he and his administration should have been "engaged" before making such a predictably heinous decision.

So you are for requiring all immigrants to submit a DNA sample at the border? I'm surprised. How much will it cost to provide all these DNA kits and train the CBP officers? I'm sure you gave a lot of thought to your idea. Would you mind posting your email to the reporter/biotech rep here? I want to hear more about this.

I also would like to hear about how much time and money you have volunteered to support these immigrants since you care about then so much.

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Flytolive
06-22-2018, 03:48 PM
So you are for requiring all immigrants to submit a DNA sample at the border?No, I suggested using DNA testing of the 2,300 children and parents (voluntarily) taken into custody at the same time to try and reunite them and then destroying those records afterwards. And no, I am not going to post the emails or tell you my favorite color. Obviously, there are likely a myriad of issues of which I am unaware that might prevent doing it, but I didn't hear anyone discussing it in the media.

Jecain7
06-22-2018, 03:56 PM
No, I suggested using DNA testing of the 2,300 children and parents (voluntarily) taken into custody at the same time to try and reunite them and then destroying those records afterwards. And no, I am not going to post the emails or tell you my favorite color. Obviously, there are likely a myriad of issues of which I am unaware that might prevent doing it, but I didn't hear anyone discussing it in the media.

So what happens when the DNA test comes back and there is no match?

Flytolive
06-22-2018, 04:03 PM
So what happens when the DNA test comes back and there is no match?DNA is just an additional possible piece of the puzzle. There was already an interview process that they used to determine the veracity of the detainees' claims and a process for unaccompanied minors. These are issues that one would think the White House would have resolved before separating children from their parents.

Thank heavens for the Fake Media for their role in stopping this revolting mess.

Jecain7
06-22-2018, 04:11 PM
DNA is just an additional possible piece of the puzzle. There was already an interview process that they used to determine the veracity of the detainees' claims and a process for unaccompanied minors. These are issues that one would think the White House would have resolved before separating children from their parents.

Thank heavens for the Fake Media for their role in stopping this revolting mess.

Sounds expensive

Flytolive
06-22-2018, 04:15 PM
Sounds expensive"32 and Me" DNA tests go for as little at $79 on Amazon. You could probably get these types of companies to fight with each other to see who could do it pro bono.

Does it sound expensive to you to fly 2,300 children all over the country and put them in halfway houses for about $300/night/person?

Jecain7
06-22-2018, 04:27 PM
"32 and Me" DNA tests go for as little at $79 on Amazon. You could probably get these types of companies to fight with each other to see who could do it pro bono.

Does it sound expensive to you to fly 2,300 children all over the country and put them in halfway houses for about $300/night/person?

How long is the turn around time on a 23 and me test? How long are we going to have these people in custody paying for them waiting on a test? How much will that cost? Why are we flying them all over the country? Are they getting a free tour so they can pick where they want to live?

Flytolive
06-22-2018, 04:31 PM
Why are we flying them all over the country? Are they getting a free tour so they can pick where they want to live?How bout you read a real newspaper and get yourself up to speed so we don't have to waste everyone's time with such ignorant questions. Or you could regale us with all your brilliant ideas of how to solve these vexing issues.

Jecain7
06-22-2018, 04:34 PM
How bout you read a real newspaper and get yourself up to speed so we don't have to waste everyone's time with such ignorant questions. Or you could regale us with all your brilliant ideas of how to solve these vexing issues.

You seem to have all the answers, so i'm trying to learn from someone who knows it all and has such great ideas.

SheepDogg
06-22-2018, 05:05 PM
Agree or disagree, it's bad policy for corporations to make business decisions based on matters having nothing to do with the business itself. Social media driven emotional appeals and populist movements are usually a flash in the pan and often fraught with hidden agendas and facts yet to be discovered.

A wise board of directors understands their role in ensuring the shareholders interests are protected and stay clear of risks that come without reward.

These situations have a nasty habit of reversing course as facts begin to surface. At best, one side is appeased at the expense of the other, at worst, a hasty decision appears foolhardy and has permanent ramifications by the precedent set.

No one would have questioned AA in the absence of this very public, political stance.

This bears repeating.

Bozo the pilot
06-22-2018, 06:10 PM
We, pilots, definitely are confident in our views on a myriad of non-pilot related issues. The key to avoiding self-delusion is critical thinking and always checking your premises with facts instead of repeating unverified hearsay.


FACT CHECK OF THE DAY

Kirstjen Nielsen Justifies Family Separation by Pointing to Increase in Fraud. But the Data Is Very Limited.

President Trump’s homeland security secretary said the number of immigrants fraudulently posing as families has tripled. That’s true per government data. But those cases make up less than 1 percent of families apprehended at the border.

Linda Qiu
By Linda Qiu
June 18, 2018

WHAT WAS SAID
“I’m sad to say that from October 2017 to this February, we have seen a staggering 315 percent increase in illegal aliens fraudulently using children to pose as family units to gain entry into this country.”
— Kirstjen Nielsen, speaking Monday to the National Sheriffs’ Association

THE FACTS
This needs context.

Kirstjen Nielsen, the secretary of homeland security, suggested in two appearances on Monday that the Trump administration policy to separate children from their parents at the border was justified, in part, to prevent smugglers from posing as families to take advantage of a “get-out-of-jail-free card.”

But characterizing the increase of this type of fraud as “staggering” is misleading. The data reflects a period of less than two years, making it difficult to draw a meaningful historical comparison. And the instances of fraud make up less than 1 percent of families apprehended at the border.

The numbers Ms. Nielsen cites are correct. Katie Waldman, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security, told The New York Times that there were 46 cases of fraudulent family claims in the 2017 fiscal year, which began in October 2016 and ended in September 2017. In just the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year, there were 191 cases — a 315 percent increase.

But those instances of family fraud are a tiny fraction of the total number of families apprehended at the southwestern border: 0.06 percent of nearly 76,000 families in the 2017 fiscal year and 0.6 percent of 31,000 families apprehended in the first five months of the 2018 fiscal year.

Further, Ms. Waldman said the department had only recently begun compiling family-fraud data, so a comparison with earlier administrations’ data would not yet be possible.

Source: Department of Homeland Security, Customs and Border Protection




WHAT WAS SAID
“We have to get the Democrats to go ahead and work with us. Because as a result of Democrat-supported loopholes in our federal laws, most illegal immigrant families and minors from Central America who arrive unlawfully at the border cannot be detained together or removed together, only released. These are crippling loopholes that cause family separation, which we don’t want.”

— Mr. Trump, in remarks on Tuesday to the National Federation of Independent Business

False.

Mr. Trump is again wrongly claiming that Democrats are responsible for “loopholes” that necessitate breaking apart families at the border.

The White House cites a 1997 court settlement and a 2008 law as these loopholes. Neither mandates detaining parents and separating children from their families.

Under the court settlement, the government agreed to quickly release children under an established preference that ranks for custody. In 2016, an appeals court held that the government must do the same for children who arrive with families.

The 2008 law, the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, requires the government to transfer children from countries other than Mexico and Canada to the care and custody of the Department of Health and Human Services and then place them in formal removal proceedings. It does not apply to children who travel with family.

Mr. Trump is also wrong that Central American families who enter the United States illegally cannot be removed together. Like individual adults, families with children can be placed under a process known as expedited removal — unless they seek asylum.

Through expedited removal, immigration officials can quickly remove an unauthorized immigrant from the country without having to go through an immigration court. If the families do make a claim of credible fear and are denied, they are then placed into removal proceedings.

As Mr. Trump said, his administration could release one or both parents with their children. But it has instead chosen to prosecute people who cross the border illegally under a new “zero tolerance” policy, leading to the separation of children from their parents.

Get a life man. Is it Flytolive or "Livetopost"?
Where so you get the time to type this drivel?

meyers9163
06-22-2018, 06:24 PM
No, I suggested using DNA testing of the 2,300 children and parents (voluntarily) taken into custody at the same time to try and reunite them and then destroying those records afterwards. And no, I am not going to post the emails or tell you my favorite color. Obviously, there are likely a myriad of issues of which I am unaware that might prevent doing it, but I didn't hear anyone discussing it in the media.

But you’re ok with an FA posting information about PAXs and privacy issues on Facebook. Again odd how you find certain things ok and yet you are afraid to share something that you have and can share but won’t? Hmmm seems odd or possible that you haven’t actually done what you claim.

Laker24
06-22-2018, 09:50 PM
I wonder what kind of person could read this and feel ok with what's been transpiring.

Immigrant families encounter chaos to reunite parents with children - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/family-reunification-process-chaos-for-immigrant-parents-children-2018-6)

"But many other children lack Madrid's advantage — not only are they bereft of phone numbers for any US relatives, many are also so young they can't speak or don't know details that would help locate their parents, like their full names or birth dates.

And while immigration authorities have set up a hotline parents can call for assistance tracking down their children, many of the parents remain detained and have limited access to phones.

Even the tiniest error from Customs and Border Protection officers could be the difference between a family being reunited or separated indefinitely, said Liz Willis, the program manager for the Urban Justice Center's Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project.

For instance, if CBP staff made an typo when they wrote down migrants' names during processing, their children or other relatives won't be able to find them through the online detainee locator."

meyers9163
06-23-2018, 03:49 AM
I wonder what kind of person could read this and feel ok with what's been transpiring.

Immigrant families encounter chaos to reunite parents with children - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/family-reunification-process-chaos-for-immigrant-parents-children-2018-6)

"But many other children lack Madrid's advantage — not only are they bereft of phone numbers for any US relatives, many are also so young they can't speak or don't know details that would help locate their parents, like their full names or birth dates.

And while immigration authorities have set up a hotline parents can call for assistance tracking down their children, many of the parents remain detained and have limited access to phones.

Even the tiniest error from Customs and Border Protection officers could be the difference between a family being reunited or separated indefinitely, said Liz Willis, the program manager for the Urban Justice Center's Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project.

For instance, if CBP staff made an typo when they wrote down migrants' names during processing, their children or other relatives won't be able to find them through the online detainee locator."

Odd how I don’t get how you don’t understand the many stories of families getting to the border and then a smuggler demanding more money and when a family can’t comply they rape a kid or take one. Or the families who have lost kids to these illegal criminals. Guess it’s ok for their legal US Citizen kids to be ripped from them forever. Not temporarily. They then get to pay for a funeral. Guess you some how forget that part of this all? Go figure but AA surely has it all figured out just like you do.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 04:45 AM
Odd how I don’t get how you don’t understand the many stories of families getting to the border and then a smuggler demanding more money and when a family can’t comply they rape a kid or take one. Or the families who have lost kids to these illegal criminals. Guess it’s ok for their legal US Citizen kids to be ripped from them forever. Not temporarily. They then get to pay for a funeral. Guess you some how forget that part of this all? Go figure but AA surely has it all figured out just like you do.Ignorant and misguided talking points regurgitated without any effort to understand much less sympathize.

Yes, many of these people are faced with unimaginable choices to the point that they are willing to endure a hellacious journey with extreme danger to seek asylum in the U.S. Immigrants commit significantly less crime than citizens.

I wonder what kind of person could read this and feel ok with what's been transpiring.

Immigrant families encounter chaos to reunite parents with children - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/family-reunification-process-chaos-for-immigrant-parents-children-2018-6)

Failure to plan for the easily predictable repercussions of the Trump administration's misguided and heartless zero tolerance policy change.

dawgdriver
06-23-2018, 08:18 AM
"Time issued a correction on one of its articles in which Moore's photo appeared. "The original version of this story misstated what happened to the girl in the photo after she taken from the scene. The girl was not carried away screaming by U.S. Border Patrol agents; her mother picked her up and the two were taken away together," the correction reads. (CNN quickly issued a correction on one article Thursday that focused on the Time cover to correctly describe the image of the crying girl.)"

This is precisely why publicly traded companies should remain clear of social media driven, knee-jerk reactions. No telling where these politically charged agendas end up. AA management had no need to involve its stakeholders in this.

'F' for risk management.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 08:35 AM
This is precisely why publicly traded companies should remain clear of social media driven, knee-jerk reactions. No telling where these politically charged agendas end up. AA management had no need to involve its stakeholders in this.That is great news for that little girl and her family, but there are hundreds of others who were not so lucky. This is irrelevant to the excellent decision of the airlines to request the government stop using them to help separate these children from their parents.

meyers9163
06-23-2018, 08:42 AM
Ignorant and misguided talking points regurgitated without any effort to understand much less sympathize.

Yes, many of these people are faced with unimaginable choices to the point that they are willing to endure a hellacious journey with extreme danger to seek asylum in the U.S. Immigrants commit significantly less crime than citizens.



Failure to plan for the easily predictable repercussions of the Trump administration's misguided and heartless zero tolerance policy change.

Actually look in a mirror pal. You’d see the ignorance staring at you in the face. Your hate is obvious and absolutely disgusting.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 08:58 AM
Actually look in a mirror pal. You’d see the ignorance staring at you in the face. But yet you are incapable of providing examples.

Your hate is obvious and absolutely disgusting.I see. Making the case for NOT systematically separating children from their parents is hateful. Pure psychological projection on your part. Good luck with that.

dawgdriver
06-23-2018, 09:09 AM
That is great news for that little girl and her family, but there are hundreds of others who were not so lucky. This is irrelevant to the excellent decision of the airlines to request the government stop using them to help separate these children from their parents.

At this stage, its too early to tell. And that's the point to be made; The hyper-politicized and polarized media and politicians may have the liberty of taking an emotional stance, (along with those of us who bravely opine on an anonymous forum), but a board of directors doesn't.

Publicly traded companies have fiduciary responsibility to make decisions that are in the best interest of the shareholders. Whether we agree or not, those may involve decisions that protect the corporation's stock value at the expense of what you and I think is right or wrong. For evidence of this, one need look no further than the number of frivolous lawsuits settled out of court. They may appear ridiculous but they're designed to mitigate risk, preserve the corporation's image, value, and minimize cost. (This points to a desperate need for Torts reform, but I'll leave that for a different thread).

The fallout from this could easily cost AA more than they're prepared to accept. Or not. The point being that there was no risk/reward benefit to prematurely pursuing this action. As we are already seeing, these stories have a tendency to become twisted, unravel, and paint a completely different picture at their conclusion. The Board of Directors doesn't have a crystal ball clear enough to make that distinction at this point.

AA is in business to make a profit, not immerse themselves in emotional/social/political agendas that have no ties to their given charter ($$) and bring nothing to the table but unnecessary risk with nebulous prospects of reward.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 09:20 AM
At this stage, its too early to tell. And that's the point to be made..., but a board of directors doesn't. They have to make decisions that are in the best interest of the shareholders.The verdict is in on the systematic separation of children from their parents when President Trump reversed course.

Public corporations have other stakeholders than shareholders. For instance shareholders are always subordinate to debt holders as we all found out in BK. Airlines also talk and in this case they presented a united front. AAL, DAL, UAL & SWA all took this action. That is 82% of the US market and substantially mitigates shareholder risk.

C130driver
06-23-2018, 10:24 AM
I wonder what kind of person could read this and feel ok with what's been transpiring.

Immigrant families encounter chaos to reunite parents with children - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/family-reunification-process-chaos-for-immigrant-parents-children-2018-6)

"But many other children lack Madrid's advantage — not only are they bereft of phone numbers for any US relatives, many are also so young they can't speak or don't know details that would help locate their parents, like their full names or birth dates.

And while immigration authorities have set up a hotline parents can call for assistance tracking down their children, many of the parents remain detained and have limited access to phones.

Even the tiniest error from Customs and Border Protection officers could be the difference between a family being reunited or separated indefinitely, said Liz Willis, the program manager for the Urban Justice Center's Asylum Seeker Advocacy Project.

For instance, if CBP staff made an typo when they wrote down migrants' names during processing, their children or other relatives won't be able to find them through the online detainee locator."

No one in the right mind feels “okay” with what’s happening. It’s the same way no one feels okay with a poor inner city child who is now fatherless because his father decided to sell cocaine to “feed his family.” You break the law, you go to jail, not sure why this is so ******* complicated.

Zero solutions from those screeching about child separations (which we have established have been occurring well before Trump but it’s seemingly goof politics to yell about it now that Trump is in office.) If you deport border crossers they’ll just come back. You can’t just let them go. Trump actually tried to ensure kids don’t get separated from their parents but now the left is shrieking about detaining kids.

The only real solution is to secure the border like every other nation in the world would do. However, we have seen how difficult that can be to ask.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 10:30 AM
child separations (which we have established have been occurring well before Trump

WHAT WAS SAID
“The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families at the — They absolutely did.”
— The secretary of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen, in a news conference on Monday

This is misleading.

While previous administrations did break up families, it was rare, according to former officials and immigration experts. The Trump administration, by contrast, has knowingly enacted the practice that some officials have characterized as a deterrence against illegal entry.

In 2005, President George W. Bush introduced Operation Streamline, which, like the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy, referred for prosecution immigrants illegally crossing the border. Unlike the Trump administration, the Bush administration made an exception for parents with children.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security could not provide data on how many children were separated from their parents in previous administrations.

Jeh Johnson, Ms. Nielsen’s predecessor under President Barack Obama, said in a recent interview with NPR that it was possible that families were separated, “but not as a matter of policy or practice.”

“I can’t say that it never happened,” Mr. Johnson said. “There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency. There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child.”

Cecilia Muñoz, Mr. Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, told The New York Times that the Obama administration had decided against separating children from their parents because “the morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are.”

A 2016 report from the American Immigration Council details the stories of children detained with one parent, but separated from the other. One woman was detained with her children and separated from her nephew, who was transferred to the care of a foster family.

But neither the Bush nor Obama administration had a policy that had the effect of widespread family separation, said Sarah Pierce of the Migration Policy Institute. “Nothing like what the Trump administration is doing has occurred before,” she said.

dawgdriver
06-23-2018, 10:38 AM
The verdict is in on the systematic separation of children from their parents when President Trump reversed course.

Public corporations have other stakeholders than shareholders. For instance shareholders are always subordinate to debt holders as we all found out in BK. Airlines also talk and in this case they presented a united front. AAL, DAL, UAL & SWA all took this action. That is 82% of the US market and substantially mitigates shareholder risk.

Really? DAL? Might want to check your facts.

"Delta Air Lines issued a statement after the order was signed calling family separations "disheartening," but without detailing the carrier's position on transporting children separated from their parents[/I]." Well thought out statements and decisions like this is why DAL stock increases have lead the Legacy airline transports sector and is widely considered among the best managed, most stable airlines.

Also, "[I]JetBlue did not respond to a request for comment". Apparently PR departments at Alaska, Hawaiian, Spirit, Allegiant, etc, or any of the regionals felt the need to unnecessarily expose their shareholders either.

As for Southwest...

After Trump signed the order, Southwest issued a statement saying the airline did "not wish to have involvement in the process of separating children from their parents. Therefore, we appeal to anyone making those types of travel decisions not to utilize Southwest Airlines,". You 'appeal'? LOL, bold statement considering the fact that none of the airlines have a clue who they've transported (or will), and suddenly are now so transparent, righteous and indignant:

"None of the airlines were able to definitively say whether their planes had been used to transport migrant children away from their families.
One airline official told CNN that they have limited insight on the exact circumstances of the people for whom the government buys tickets. The airlines don't know whether the individual is being deported, is a child separated from its family and headed to a detention center, or if it's an unaccompanied minor being reunited with family.
As one airline official told CNN, "we don't have full visibility beyond who they are transporting."

Question for the airlines: If the parents (or human traffickers), who choose to flagrantly disregard US law and violate its sovereign borders, are detained, BUT the child is to be granted the land of milk and honey, are these airlines refusing to transport these poor innocent children to other family members residing in the US?... thus denying them the dream of US citizenship? How horrible and Un-American! Are they thereby making the claim these children don't belong in the US and must be deported with their parents?

See how easily these situations can get twisted? Some PR departments do.

As for "verdicts being in" as related to Trump's reversal (Chief Justice?), read the part about reporters and politicians in my previous post. I wouldn't place too much stock in that.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 11:22 AM
Really? DAL? Might want to check your facts.You might want to take your own advice.

All big four airlines all made statements about the issue. DAL has taken the lead on other issues. Maybe they take turns.



American Airlines, United Airlines and Frontier Airlines all issued statements in the hours before President Donald Trump backed down and signed an executive order to end the controversial policy. Delta Air Lines (DAL) commended Trump for reversing course.

Delta's statement: “Delta’s mission is to connect people and we are against anything that runs contrary to that mission. Recent reports of families being separated are disheartening and do not align with Delta’s core values. We applaud the administration’s executive order resolving the issue of separating children from their families at the US border.”

American Airlines “We have therefore requested the federal government to immediately refrain from using American for the purpose of transporting children who have been separated from their families due to the current immigration policy. We have no desire to be associated with separating families, or worse, to profit from it. We have every expectation the government will comply with our request and we thank them for doing so.”

United Airlines “United asks U.S. government not to fly separated immigrant children on our aircraft.”

Southwest Airlines “We do not wish to have involvement in the process of separating children from their parents. Therefore, we appeal to anyone making those types of travel decisions not to utilize Southwest Airlines.”

Frontier Airlines Frontier prides itself on being a family airline and we will not knowingly allow our flights to be used to transport migrant children away from their families. At this time, we are not aware if Frontier has been used for this purpose.

Alaskan Airlines “To our knowledge, we haven’t transported any immigrant children who have been separated from their families, and today informed the government we do not want to do so.”

Spirit Airlines “We will not knowingly participate in transporting immigrant children away from their parents and families.”[/I]

dawgdriver
06-23-2018, 11:39 AM
You might want to take your own advice.

All big four airlines all made statements about the issue. DAL has taken the lead on other issues. Maybe they take turns.



American Airlines, United Airlines and Frontier Airlines all issued statements in the hours before President Donald Trump backed down and signed an executive order to end the controversial policy. Delta Air Lines (DAL) commended Trump for reversing course.

Delta's statement: “Delta’s mission is to connect people and we are against anything that runs contrary to that mission. Recent reports of families being separated are disheartening and do not align with Delta’s core values. We applaud the administration’s executive order resolving the issue of separating children from their families at the US border.”

American Airlines “We have therefore requested the federal government to immediately refrain from using American for the purpose of transporting children who have been separated from their families due to the current immigration policy. We have no desire to be associated with separating families, or worse, to profit from it. We have every expectation the government will comply with our request and we thank them for doing so.”

United Airlines “United asks U.S. government not to fly separated immigrant children on our aircraft.”

Southwest Airlines “We do not wish to have involvement in the process of separating children from their parents. Therefore, we appeal to anyone making those types of travel decisions not to utilize Southwest Airlines.”

Frontier Airlines Frontier prides itself on being a family airline and we will not knowingly allow our flights to be used to transport migrant children away from their families. At this time, we are not aware if Frontier has been used for this purpose.

Alaskan Airlines “To our knowledge, we haven’t transported any immigrant children who have been separated from their families, and today informed the government we do not want to do so.”

Spirit Airlines “We will not knowingly participate in transporting immigrant children away from their parents and families.”[/I]

First of all, You left out JetBlue(?) Secondly, thanks for making my point: Statements, without action....bland, politically correct, statements. Gee go figure. When other agencies commit to social agenda driven actions such as American and United, it forces the media spotlight into the face of all others, demanding a response. What else were they going to say?

Again, the REAL question, would you, as an airline refuse to transport children of parents (or others claiming to be), to family members residing in the United States? Would you deny them that American dream? Would you send them back with the adult that turns out to be a human trafficker? Rapist? Social media PR disaster in the waiting. Bucket of worms, do you agree? This is the premise of this thread. The question that PR department's and directors need to contend with is the potential fallout ($$) of taking a stance.

Bland, non-committal, feel-good statements aside, in real, practical terms, how would you as an airline, go about ensuring you are not transporting children separated from their parents? Real answer? You don't. You never have, and you never well. Say the right thing and everybody goes home happy.

Just take a look at the companies that have led this charge and do a little research as to how their PR depts have handled their disasters (every airline has them) and compare them to Delta. And no, I don't work for Delta

I'm not going to continue trying to convince you of the dilemmas faced by airline PR departments and CEOs as you (and AA) appear predisposed to an emotional perspective on what should be a purely financial decision.

nimslow
06-23-2018, 12:28 PM
It's a shame that previous administrations (both D and R) couldn't be worried about properly securing our borders, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Nothing a flaming moat, and some land mines won't fix in short order.

dawgdriver
06-23-2018, 12:37 PM
You aren’t so bright are you? The point was somebody who had never faced discrimination and had every door open to them in life (typical white male) took pleasure in an impoverished minority child being separated from her family.

Did you go back and re-read some of this bigoted, racist drivel you post? "Old white guy"? "Typical white male"?

Why do you feel it's OK to stereotype and prejudge certain groups? Easy targets? Politically correct? Do you know who else was old and white? Bernie Sanders, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Abraham Lincoln. There are many others who do not come from a wealthy, privilege backgrounds, that through great adversity went on to do great things. They come from every spectrum of economic status and their perspectives on culture, politics, and everything in between are as diverse as any other sect of the population. Same can be said for ALL races and genders. I quit trying to prejudge people when I found I was wrong most of the time. That was grade school.

Do you get your opinions from the media? Entertainment industry? If so, I'm beginning to understand. Look no further than sitcoms, advertising, and news to see the token idiot: White male. An "old white male" comes to mind with a guy I just flew it recently. Like many others, higher income bracket. You know what he (and others) does with all that money? In addition to paying 10 times the taxes of the average citizen, a lot of donating, volunteering, and helping his kids raise the grandkids. Rich white jerk.

I happen to be old, and white. I'm sick of being told how I think, how I behave, and what my income bracket was growing up. Please, tell me how privileged I was, tell me about the Silverspoon I was born with. I'm all ears.

Chris99
06-23-2018, 12:55 PM
WHAT WAS SAID
“The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families at the — They absolutely did.”
— The secretary of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen, in a news conference on Monday

This is misleading.

While previous administrations did break up families, it was rare, according to former officials and immigration experts. The Trump administration, by contrast, has knowingly enacted the practice that some officials have characterized as a deterrence against illegal entry.

In 2005, President George W. Bush introduced Operation Streamline, which, like the Trump administration’s zero-tolerance policy, referred for prosecution immigrants illegally crossing the border. Unlike the Trump administration, the Bush administration made an exception for parents with children.

A spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security could not provide data on how many children were separated from their parents in previous administrations.

Jeh Johnson, Ms. Nielsen’s predecessor under President Barack Obama, said in a recent interview with NPR that it was possible that families were separated, “but not as a matter of policy or practice.”

“I can’t say that it never happened,” Mr. Johnson said. “There may have been some exigent situation, some emergency. There may have been some doubt about whether the adult accompanying the child was in fact the parent of the child.”

Cecilia Muñoz, Mr. Obama’s top domestic policy adviser, told The New York Times that the Obama administration had decided against separating children from their parents because “the morality of it was clear — that’s not who we are.”

A 2016 report from the American Immigration Council details the stories of children detained with one parent, but separated from the other. One woman was detained with her children and separated from her nephew, who was transferred to the care of a foster family.

But neither the Bush nor Obama administration had a policy that had the effect of widespread family separation, said Sarah Pierce of the Migration Policy Institute. “Nothing like what the Trump administration is doing has occurred before,” she said.

I don't know why you keep posting this same quote to "prove" family separations never happened under previous administrations when the quote you are posting states in black and white (see bolded parts of your quote) that family separations did happen under previous administrations, just not to the same extent. If you believe family separations are so horrible, it wouldn't matter if it was one or a thousand, right? And the crazy thing is that the separations that happened under previous administrations happened for the exact same reasons they happened under Trump; the only difference is that Trump was more hard-nosed in his enforcement of immigration laws already on the books, which falls under the fourth bullet point below (or the third numbered point):
"Fact

DHS does not have a blanket policy of separating families at the border. However, DHS does have a responsibility to protect all minors in our custody. This means DHS will separate adults and minors under certain circumstances. These circumstances include: 1) when DHS is unable to determine the familial relationship, 2) when DHS determines that a child may be at risk with the parent or legal guardian, or 3) when the parent or legal guardian is referred for criminal prosecution.

Familial Relationship – If there is reason to question the claimed familial relationship between an adult and child, it is not appropriate to detain adults and children together.

Human Trafficking and Smuggling – If there is reason to suspect the purported parent or legal guardian of human trafficking or smuggling, DHS detains the adult in an appropriate, secure detection facility, separate from the minor. DHS continues to see instances and intelligence reports indicating minors are trafficked by unrelated adults, posing as a “family” in an effort to avoid detention.

Safety Risk – If there is reason to suspect the purported parent or legal guardian poses a safety risk to the child (e.g. suspected child abuse), it is not appropriate to maintain the adult and child together.

Criminal Prosecution – If an adult is referred for criminal prosecution, the adult will be transferred to U.S. Marshals Service custody and any children will be classified as an unaccompanied alien child and transferred to the Department of Health and Human Services custody."



Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

meyers9163
06-23-2018, 01:25 PM
No one in the right mind feels “okay” with what’s happening. It’s the same way no one feels okay with a poor inner city child who is now fatherless because his father decided to sell cocaine to “feed his family.” You break the law, you go to jail, not sure why this is so ******* complicated.

Zero solutions from those screeching about child separations (which we have established have been occurring well before Trump but it’s seemingly goof politics to yell about it now that Trump is in office.) If you deport border crossers they’ll just come back. You can’t just let them go. Trump actually tried to ensure kids don’t get separated from their parents but now the left is shrieking about detaining kids.

The only real solution is to secure the border like every other nation in the world would do. However, we have seen how difficult that can be to ask.

Shhhh he knows it all. He already claimed he does. Problem being he then tried to claim all pilots do the same. See he’s the guy who knows how to do everyone else’s job and is an absolute blast to fly with.

Knows how to do the FAs job and tells them how to. Gate agent? Yes sir he’s trained there too and knows it all. Maintenance? Shoot he don’t need no maintenance he knows it all and can fix it.

Illegal immigration? Shoot he has that too!!! Some how he’s only a stinking pilot and not some other career field where he also knows it all.... Hell he probably even stayed at a Holiday Inn last night ;)

tyler durden
06-23-2018, 01:48 PM
Did you go back and re-read some of this bigoted, racist drivel you post? "Old white guy"? "Typical white male"?

Why do you feel it's OK to stereotype and prejudge certain groups? Easy targets? Politically correct? Do you know who else was old and white? Bernie Sanders, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Abraham Lincoln. There are many others who do not come from a wealthy, privilege backgrounds, that through great adversity went on to do great things. They come from every spectrum of economic status and their perspectives on culture, politics, and everything in between are as diverse as any other sect of the population. Same can be said for ALL races and genders. I quit trying to prejudge people when I found I was wrong most of the time. That was grade school.

Do you get your opinions from the media? Entertainment industry? If so, I'm beginning to understand. Look no further than sitcoms, advertising, and news to see the token idiot: White male. An "old white male" comes to mind with a guy I just flew it recently. Like many others, higher income bracket. You know what he (and others) does with all that money? In addition to paying 10 times the taxes of the average citizen, a lot of donating, volunteering, and helping his kids raise the grandkids. Rich white jerk.

I happen to be old, and white. I'm sick of being told how I think, how I behave, and what my income bracket was growing up. Please, tell me how privileged I was, tell me about the Silverspoon I was born with. I'm all ears.

The only door open to most of the old white guys I fly with was the military door. Some of them went straight in through service academies or ROTC, others enlisted, then G.I. Bill. There were others that didn't fit that category (minorities, females) that took advantage of that door and got military flight training as well. It was never gender, race or income based. Mostly just a lot of effort, blood, sweat and tears. It was $1 million education rammed up your a$$ a nickel at a time. Then, the prospect of getting shot at that sort of put things in perspective. I came up through the civilian ranks, but have nothing but respect for those guys/gals. By the way, I did not come from money by any stretch.

The only difference came later when the white guy did not have the same hiring preferences at the airlines driven by the EEOC (through sanctions levied on united), OBAP, WIA, 99's, etc.

A lot of worn out excuses, labeling, and blame.

Time to move on.

Dorn
06-23-2018, 02:04 PM
when boiled down to its ultimate minority (you) we all have certain privileges and disadvantages in our lives. Its sad that we (as rather intelligent) individuals allow ourselves to be swept up into the identity politics and tribalism. I've attached a link ( I hope it works) where this incredibly complicated topic is drilled down into. To be lauding our accomplishments or lack there of due to the color of our skin grossly simplifies the complexities of our social structure.


https://youtu.be/PfH8IG7Awk0

Cujo665
06-23-2018, 02:16 PM
WHAT WAS SAID
“The Obama administration, the Bush administration all separated families at the — They absolutely did.”
— The secretary of homeland security, Kirstjen Nielsen, in a news conference on Monday

This is misleading...……………………………..

But neither the Bush nor Obama administration had a policy that had the effect of widespread family separation, said Sarah Pierce of the Migration Policy Institute. “Nothing like what the Trump administration is doing has occurred before,” she said.

in other words, prior administrations did not enforce the law. Got it, thanks

BackintheLPA
06-23-2018, 02:22 PM
Jordan Peterson is articulate, poised, and dialed in...Ironically, a rabid SJW like Flytolive believes he is a sophisticated know it all. When in reality, he’s simply a NPR parrot with turrets.

Flytolive
06-23-2018, 04:42 PM
...family separations did happen under previous administrations, just not to the same extent. If you believe family separations are so horrible, it wouldn't matter if it was one or a thousand, right? Absolutely wrong, but you already knew that didn't you?

The difference is that Trump, Sessions, Kelly & Miller INTENDED to separate children from their parents even those seeking asylum. They thought this would serve as a deterrent and leverage to get everything they want in immigration reform legislation. They were just too clueless to understand, much less plan for the repercussions. Gross mismanagement. If you don't believe me then take their word for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI9R_b0aztE

It is akin to the difference between planning to systemically bomb civilian populations as opposed to occasional and accidental "collateral damage."

Bozo the pilot
06-23-2018, 05:31 PM
Jordan Peterson is articulate, poised, and dialed in...Ironically, a rabid SJW like Flytolive believes he is a sophisticated know it all. When in reality, he’s simply a NPR parrot with turrets.

"NPR parrot" that's funny and accurate.
He clearly turned on by MSDNC as well.

Sliceback
06-24-2018, 03:41 AM
in other words, prior administrations did not enforce the law. Got it, thanks

Trump didn’t either for the first 15 months of his term.

Dolphinflyer
06-24-2018, 06:28 AM
Meanwhile while we're distracted, the great "MAGA" leader has applied for H1 visas for foreign workers to work at Mar-a-Lago and his Trump golf clubs in South Florida instead of hiring local US citizens.