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View Full Version : Quality of Life


Mea25000
06-21-2018, 08:09 AM
For the months of May and June...I Flew low 70ís. I feel so much better. Way better quality of life, and I have had so much more fun with friends and family. If you are burnt out, feeling stressed, I would encourage you to fly less and really enjoy your summer! I plan on doing just that in July and August.


OCCP
06-21-2018, 10:03 AM
Iíve been flying low 70s every month for a few years. Itís easy to do with pbs!

Snuffaluffagus
06-21-2018, 10:09 AM
Gotta admit, I wish I could keep repeating my June schedule. I'm super junior but it was all commutable 3 days and 15 days off. Only 70 hours, but I'm not burnt out and spent way more time at home than work!


All Bizniz
06-21-2018, 11:21 AM
It is a good suggestion although for some pilots the mortgage would be a tight squeeze and/or they wouldn't be able to afford those toys if they only flew 70 hours... and they don't really care to see their wives/families that much anyways... 🤣🤣

airb320
06-21-2018, 11:23 AM
Some pilots would lose their houses or wouldn't be able to afford those toys if they only flew 70 hours... and they don't really care to see their wives/families that much anyways... 🤣🤣

Bad place to be and only to blame yourself😉

All Bizniz
06-21-2018, 11:35 AM
Bad place to be and only to blame yourself😉

Not necessarily...... but I see where you're coming from tho.

Personally, I'm on the right track but some people do suffer financial misfortunes over which they might have had little or no control...

KnockKnock
06-21-2018, 11:59 AM
2020 goal is to get a contract that allows all of us to live comfortably off of 70 hrs without having to sacrifice other things affecting our QOL. No reason we can't have both pay and QOL.

All Bizniz
06-21-2018, 12:04 PM
Agreed.....

OCCP
06-21-2018, 12:44 PM
We better hope the next negotiating committee isnít a bunch of pushovers

ShyGuy
06-21-2018, 01:40 PM
Not necessarily...... but I see where you're coming from tho.

Personally, I'm on the right track but some people do suffer financial misfortunes over which they might have had little or no control...

FOs okay, but CA at 70 hrs is still 200k+ year which puts you in the top 5-7% of earners. If you find yourself living paycheck to paycheck and can barely meet your mortgage being in the top 5-7% of earners, you’re doing it wrong.

Klsytakesit
06-21-2018, 03:18 PM
We better hope the next negotiating committee isn’t a bunch of pushovers
They are not and have not been pushovers....They have never had our support ever....If we commit today to “ no pick up, no premium, no vsa , no extensions, no favors and do as MEA did and fly minimum, then just maybe they will have a voice at the table....slow our overly consumptive lives down now...live on 70 hrs now, disengage now and by 2020 we might get what we want or at least get what we need. While Alaska has never been a career airline it has been a decent job at 70 hrs or less....

All Bizniz
06-21-2018, 03:24 PM
FOs okay, but CA at 70 hrs is still 200k+ year which puts you in the top 5-7% of earners. If you find yourself living paycheck to paycheck and can barely meet your mortgage being in the top 5-7% of earners, youíre doing it wrong.
And after taxes what is that?

Ever been divorced and have to pay alimony and child support while supporting your new family having remarried?

Ever been stuck fighting an insane medical bill after a family member recovers or dies from a serious ailment?

Ever been sued, rightly or wrongly and had a judgment against you?

Try taking care of a old/sick parent in a nursing home.

Try living in the desirable neighborhoods with good schools for your kids in the North East or in CA....

My point is that each individual circumstance is different and a person may not necessarily be "doing something wrong" to be struggling financially earning $200,000 or more...

Yes, there are high earning individuals who are irresponsible with their money, but until you've walked in a person's shoes, I would be hesitant to paint with such broad strokes.....

rogersmith
06-21-2018, 06:59 PM
How how much money you need to make in San Francisco to buy a home - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/income-required-to-afford-a-home-in-san-francisco-2018-2)

ďSan Francisco's housing market is so dire, people need to make over $300,000 a year to afford the typical homeĒ -Business Insider, 2/21/18

ASpilot0936
06-21-2018, 07:07 PM
We better hope the next negotiating committee isnít a bunch of pushovers


They already are. They're still in the mindset that we should be paid 5th best.


Throw them all out I say.

ASpilot0936
06-21-2018, 07:09 PM
Alaska has never been a career airline it has been a decent job at 70 hrs or less....


Why can't it be? If everyone grows a pair & stops helping the company with their premium problems........

ShyGuy
06-21-2018, 08:17 PM
And after taxes what is that?

Ever been divorced and have to pay alimony and child support while supporting your new family having remarried?

Ever been stuck fighting an insane medical bill after a family member recovers or dies from a serious ailment?

Ever been sued, rightly or wrongly and had a judgment against you?

Try taking care of a old/sick parent in a nursing home.

Try living in the desirable neighborhoods with good schools for your kids in the North East or in CA....

My point is that each individual circumstance is different and a person may not necessarily be "doing something wrong" to be struggling financially earning $200,000 or more...

Yes, there are high earning individuals who are irresponsible with their money, but until you've walked in a person's shoes, I would be hesitant to paint with such broad strokes.....

Youíre right, those things are terrible. Those problems arenít just pilots, that can be anyone. People have gone through those things and done that while making far less than $200k. My point is that even at min 70 hrs, we are in the top 6-7% of the population.

All Bizniz
06-21-2018, 09:50 PM
Youíre right, those things are terrible. Those problems arenít just pilots, that can be anyone. People have gone through those things and done that while making far less than $200k. My point is that even at min 70 hrs, we are in the top 6-7% of the population.
Being in the top 6-7% means nothing, if I can't afford to live for example in San Francisco where I'm based unless I am prepared drive 2-3 hours to get to work.

As I recall, your point was basically that if you are in the top 6-7% and struggling financially, "you are doing it wrong". I just wanted to remind you that there are many legitimate reasons why some high earning pilots may have money issues.

As for surviving that situation? Pilot or not, I am willing to bet the farm that while anyone earning 200k or more facing any one of those crippling circumstances may be able to survive from paycheck to paycheck; those who earn much less often don't stand a chance and among other things, typically end up losing their homes and/or declaring bankruptcy at significantly greater rates. It's just Math. (An inside VX joke I'm sure you'll appreciate lol)

ShyGuy
06-21-2018, 10:02 PM
Now you're just being "reckless!" :D

All Bizniz
06-21-2018, 10:07 PM
Hahaha
Deee Ceee in the building! 🤣😂🤣

BusCapt
06-21-2018, 11:40 PM
For the months of May and June...I Flew low 70ís. I feel so much better. Way better quality of life, and I have had so much more fun with friends and family. If you are burnt out, feeling stressed, I would encourage you to fly less and really enjoy your summer! I plan on doing just that in July and August.

How is this achieved with line bidding? I thought most lines were minimum 75 with the average AS line holder working closer to 85 Average (Just hearsay... from what I've heard).

Do you drop trips to other line holders? Are you top seniority such that you can bid more days off?

Trying to develop strategies for maintaining a healthy work life balance when line bidding comes....

Packrat
06-22-2018, 08:01 AM
Why can't it be? If everyone grows a pair & stops helping the company with their premium problems........

Check DAL's pay rate and how much they "greenslip." Alaska can afford it. It's cheaper to pay 150% than to hire a pilot.

KnockKnock
06-22-2018, 08:35 AM
How is this achieved with line bidding? I thought most lines were minimum 75 with the average AS line holder working closer to 85 Average (Just hearsay... from what I've heard).

Do you drop trips to other line holders? Are you top seniority such that you can bid more days off?

Trying to develop strategies for maintaining a healthy work life balance when line bidding comes....
The only way to drop below the monthly min (75-78 depending on ďflex upĒ), is pilot to pilot trades or drops. Not so easy if your a jr. slob with crap trips that no one wants... I commend MEA for doing minimal flying but itís kinda like a senior CA telling a Jr. F.O. all about his new boat and cabin on the lake. Not so easily done at anything less than 20% seniority. Yet another thing that needs fixing in 2020.

ForeverJunior
06-22-2018, 11:02 AM
I'm just short of 78 hours this month and have a little more than 78 hours with 18 days off in July. Both months were at 87+ when my lines were awarded. I usually bid 3-day trips, partial weekends even. I can drop turns and 2-day trips during step trading often.

I don't personally like to go to low 70's, because I'm hoarding cash. But, it's doable. You just have to try to trade for stuff that you can easily get rid of through p2p.

With that said, I do have a little seniority. I'm a 2006 hire and top 100 on the SEA FO list. So, step trading has been okay.

Mea25000
06-22-2018, 12:48 PM
A Cartel of pilots working together to better ones SKD... pump then dump!
Scattered Vacation days
Carry-in
P2P

OCCP
06-22-2018, 12:58 PM
Getting a decent schedule shouldnít have to be that complicated

greaser
06-22-2018, 01:03 PM
A Cartel of pilots working together to better ones SKD... pump then dump!
Scattered Vacation days
Carry-in
P2P


Its good to know you have a system that can be worked. The Airbus folks are eager to learn the tricks the merger is forcing.

I think this is a reason to postpone the Airbus going to line bidding until the first of next year: we cannot swap vacation days yet, only whole weeks. With the Alaska rules requiring that pilots do these swaps well in advance, it sounds like we'll miss significant opportunities to make the holidays work if we have to go to line bidding in October.

KnockKnock
06-22-2018, 01:35 PM
Getting a decent schedule shouldnít have to be that complicated
I’m a 3 yr guy and have learned the many tricks to our line bidding. I get decent schedules for my seniority. 80-85 hrs and 16 days off. However, OCCP, you’re right, we should not have to use every trick in our bag to get decent schedules. I’ve been making a list of things I want improved upon to hand to my reps come 2020.

OCCP
06-22-2018, 03:51 PM
But I thought everything about Ala5ka was supposed to be superior to Virgin!

CassinAK
06-22-2018, 04:34 PM
They are not and have not been pushovers....They have never had our support ever....If we commit today to ď no pick up, no premium, no vsa , no extensions, no favors and do as MEA did and fly minimum, then just maybe they will have a voice at the table....slow our overly consumptive lives down now...live on 70 hrs now, disengage now and by 2020 we might get what we want or at least get what we need. While Alaska has never been a career airline it has been a decent job at 70 hrs or less....



This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Scope No Vote 2020

grkero
06-23-2018, 12:31 PM
I'm just short of 78 hours this month and have a little more than 78 hours with 18 days off in July. Both months were at 87+ when my lines were awarded. I usually bid 3-day trips, partial weekends even. I can drop turns and 2-day trips during step trading often.

I don't personally like to go to low 70's, because I'm hoarding cash. But, it's doable. You just have to try to trade for stuff that you can easily get rid of through p2p.

With that said, I do have a little seniority. I'm a 2006 hire and top 100 on the SEA FO list. So, step trading has been okay.

Do you bid for lines that are in that high 80s range? It seems like you'd be better off bidding for something in the high 70s instead, and not having to deal with step trading.

ForeverJunior
06-24-2018, 08:11 AM
Do you bid for lines that are in that high 80s range? It seems like you'd be better off bidding for something in the high 70s instead, and not having to deal with step trading.

We are in flex-up months. Lines average 85 hours. Lines in high 70's are few and far between. I like to bid 3-day trips on the same days every week... for example Thursday-Saturday or Sunday-Tuesday. These types of pure/consistent lines are usually high credit (85+). They might have a 2-day and a turn or two sprinkled in there. The 2-days and turns are easy to drop or trade for during step trading. Last resort, turns and some 2-days are easy to give away p2p.

If they would ever write consistent & pure 3 on / 4 off lines worth 75-78 hours, I would bid those and save them and myself the time with step trading. But, since they insist on writing loaded lines, some of us have to put in the extra effort to whittle away at them by any means necessary (carry-in trips, bidding lines with trips that are easy to give away, sprinkling vacation days here and there, etc.).

OCCP
06-24-2018, 09:18 AM
That sounds sooo much better than pbs[emoji849]

Klsytakesit
06-24-2018, 05:49 PM
That sounds sooo much better than pbs[emoji849]

You surely know by now why PBS isa no-go with current work rules/payrates. The people that run Alaska Airlines dont like you and are not nice people

OCCP
06-24-2018, 07:39 PM
I get it. Itís just somewhat laughable that Alaska guys act like this step trading bs is some sort of awesome thing that makes them superior.

Almost every single aspect of this ďlegacyĒ contract is worse than what us loser vxíers had. I hope most AS folks finally grow a f-ing spine in 2020. But judging by the pmís I get I donít think that will happen. They seem to indicate that theyíre unhappy but expect the Virgins to lead the charge.

ForeverJunior
06-24-2018, 07:44 PM
I never said step trading is awesome. But, that's what we have to work with right now. So, trying to make the best of it.

OCCP
06-24-2018, 08:07 PM
I hear you man. On a side note, Itís sad to watch this airline drive itself into the ground. Mgmt successfully pitted all employee groups against one another and no one gives a s h I t anymore. Just today on the VX side, they are cold calling Ca, foís, and inflight on their days off trying desperately to get people to jumpseat to random cities to work certain flights out before they cancel. Creating an airline people love....

ForeverJunior
06-24-2018, 08:31 PM
I hear you man. On a side note, Itís sad to watch this airline drive itself into the ground. Mgmt successfully pitted all employee groups against one another and no one gives a s h I t anymore. Just today on the VX side, they are cold calling Ca, foís, and inflight on their days off trying desperately to get people to jumpseat to random cities to work certain flights out before they cancel. Creating an airline people love....

Sad state of affairs for sure. Angle Lake displaying zero leadership once again.

No vision...

The PNW customer loyalty is going to dry up soon and that's when these bean counters will finally cash out.

Outdoors
06-24-2018, 08:50 PM
I hear you man. On a side note, Itís sad to watch this airline drive itself into the ground. Mgmt successfully pitted all employee groups against one another and no one gives a s h I t anymore. Just today on the VX side, they are cold calling Ca, foís, and inflight on their days off trying desperately to get people to jumpseat to random cities to work certain flights out before they cancel. Creating an airline people love....

Sounds like the horizon of last year.

DelTacoBowl
06-25-2018, 10:05 AM
They are short pilots? Then why are they cancelling new hire classes? Thats frustrating for those of us hired in Feb.

I hear you man. On a side note, Itís sad to watch this airline drive itself into the ground. Mgmt successfully pitted all employee groups against one another and no one gives a s h I t anymore. Just today on the VX side, they are cold calling Ca, foís, and inflight on their days off trying desperately to get people to jumpseat to random cities to work certain flights out before they cancel. Creating an airline people love....

flysnoopy76
06-25-2018, 11:04 AM
They are short pilots? Then why are they cancelling new hire classes? Thats frustrating for those of us hired in Feb.

Itís frustrating but part of the reason is thereís going to be 40 ish percent or more on reserve in sfo once we get to September due to interior changes and painting. At least thereís no involuntary downgrades or furloughs yet

Klsytakesit
06-25-2018, 12:04 PM
OCCP....Line bidding, 1st and 2nd step trading, open flying lines and JCTE are your new tools.We get that you like your old tools...we would probably like them too under the right circumstances.....They are going away for awhile..maybe forever. Learn the new tools, not at all like the old tools.....

ImperialxRat
06-25-2018, 08:42 PM
There will be a reduction bid on the Airbus side this fall, after the JFK pilots come out west. 60 pilots will be going to the Boeing.

Max Thrust
06-25-2018, 09:35 PM
OCCP....Line bidding, 1st and 2nd step trading, open flying lines and JCTE are your new tools.We get that you like your old tools...we would probably like them too under the right circumstances.....They are going away for awhile..maybe forever. Learn the new tools, not at all like the old tools.....

Most certainly not forever

noodle
06-26-2018, 06:22 AM
There will be a reduction bid on the Airbus side this fall, after the JFK pilots come out west. 60 pilots will be going to the Boeing.

Where did you get this info from? Just a rumor or did I miss an email?

Flyboy8784
06-26-2018, 07:30 AM
There will be a reduction bid on the Airbus side this fall, after the JFK pilots come out west. 60 pilots will be going to the Boeing.

Source? I'll be honest.....I love the bus....but if a 737 base were to reemerge in JFK.....ill be the first mo'fo to wear a "if its not a boeing, I aint going!" teeshirt :D

OCCP
06-26-2018, 08:17 AM
So does that mean some planes are getting parked?

Packrat
06-26-2018, 08:59 AM
They are short pilots? Then why are they cancelling new hire classes? Thats frustrating for those of us hired in Feb.

Because they routinely short staff the airline to the point that all the instructors are required for summer line flying. They shoved tons of recurrent to Sept/Oct in the past to make those pilots available for line ops.

Don't see why they'd change now.

BusCapt
07-08-2018, 01:00 PM
After having crew meals for the past week, I totally understand why the pilots voted for crew meals as opposed to a per diem increase or meal stipend. I mean, why would I want to choose my own meal? Alaska airlines has my best interest in mind, that’s why they always provide complete, nutritious, healthy meals that will help me keep my medical till I’m 65.

For that matter, why would I want to build my own schedule? Line bidding is way better. Because Alaska airlines is a family oriented airline that will most certainly build lines that take into account my well being from a work/life balance standpoint. I LOVE 12 hour three days with circadian swaps. And I hate choosing my days off. I’m tired of being able to see my family on all of life's major events.

In fact, I’d also trust management to choose my apartment and my future wife. I have seen that the company is always kind hearted and does the right thing.

Now back to my kings feast of fruit-loops and a granola bar.

ImperialxRat
07-08-2018, 01:23 PM
Where did you get this info from? Just a rumor or did I miss an email?

I was probably drinking since I posted it as fact instead of stating that it was a rumor I heard at recurrent :)

Word was that we had one or two more new hire classes going through, meanwhile JFK was closing and those pilots get to displace out west... then a reduction bid for 60 Airbus guys to come over to Boeing (not parking planes just heavy on Airbus guys as planes are taken down for interior and paint etc and Airbus crews flying more block hours), then new hires resume in Nov.

Sounds like a lot.. weíll have to see what happens.

symbian simian
07-08-2018, 01:25 PM
After having crew meals for the past week, I totally understand why the pilots voted for crew meals as opposed to a per diem increase or meal stipend. I mean, why would I want to choose my own meal? Alaska airlines has my best interest in mind, thatís why they always provide complete, nutritious, healthy meals that will help me keep my medical till Iím 65.

For that matter, why would I want to build my own schedule? Line bidding is way better. Because Alaska airlines is a family oriented airline that will most certainly build lines that take into account my well being from a work/life balance standpoint. I LOVE 12 hour three days with circadian swaps. And I hate choosing my days off. Iím tired of being able to see my family on all of life's major events.

In fact, Iíd also trust management to choose my apartment and my future wife. I have seen that the company is always kind hearted and does the right thing.

Now back to my kings feast of fruit-loops and a granola bar.

Sadly I was halfway through this before I realized /S.
The thing is, most companies want us to accept PBS, which makes me think line-bidding should be better for us, no?

rickair7777
07-08-2018, 01:41 PM
The thing is, most companies want us to accept PBS, which makes me think line-bidding should be better for us, no?

It's more efficient for the airlines, while at the same time being more flexible for pilots.

The trick is to not let the airline have so much control over that efficiency that it degrades pilot QOL and flexibility to levels worse than line bidding.

Frankly I'd rather have PBS even if it cost me a day or maybe even two at home... often being able to pick the days at home is better than me just being home when the family is otherwise occupied. But I don't think it has to cost you anything, that's mostly in the pairing build.

It can be a win/win. Any airline will probably take more than their fair share of the win... if you let them.

BusCapt
07-08-2018, 01:48 PM
Sadly I was halfway through this before I realized /S.
The thing is, most companies want us to accept PBS, which makes me think line-bidding should be better for us, no?

Symbian, if you are not being sarcastic, go ahead and PM me. I've done line bidding and also PBS bidding for the past 17 years. Would be happy to discuss my experience with both.

But as a gross simplification, even if the pairings are sub-standard.. it's better to choose which substandard pairings you'll fly and what days of the week you will fly them on. This is HUGE when you need certain days off for family events.

In my case, I actually like red-eyes. I pick them up and always get the days off that I want. I win, and the AM flyers win because they can choose what type of pairing that they want.

Fellow PBS-ers please chime in here. I am not the foremost expert on this, just someone who's been tremendously pleased with my schedule for the past 17 years using PBS at two different airlines. For the readers of this who think that I'm letting the cat out of the bag and ruining bargaining leverage by admitting that some pilots want PBS, I respectfully disagree. Management already knows that a lot of pilots prefer to build their schedules than have pre-build, canned lines. A retired airline management exec who is a family friend actually laughed at me when I suggested PBS was some powerful bargaining chip in future negotiations. Anecdotal, I know... but it really changed my opinion on the matter.

And there are some things in life that are not zero-sum. Sometimes something that is good for a work group is also good for management and vice-versa. I believe EFB's would fall into that category.

I remember when EFB's first came out, pilots were actually COMPLAINING that they couldn't highlight things on their charts anymore.

My point is, pilots can be brilliant in working against their best interests (forgive me for the directness of that statement/opinion).

I truly write this with respect to all pilots. My wish is that we all educate ourselves, fight for, and DEMAND a decent work/life balance.

Life is short. Days off are precious. Let's get together and fight for a system that allows everyone to win (aka, pilots that want to fly 90 hours win, and pilots that want to fly 70 hours win. Pilots that want to fly PM's win, and the AM flyers win as well). Bidding systems such as this already exist.

symbian simian
07-08-2018, 02:31 PM
Symbian, if you are not being sarcastic, go ahead and PM me. I've done line bidding and also PBS bidding for the past 17 years. Would be happy to discuss my experience with both.

But as a gross simplification, even if the pairings are sub-standard.. it's better to choose which substandard pairings you'll fly and what days of the week you will fly them on. This is HUGE when you need certain days off for family events.

In my case, I actually like red-eyes. I pick them up and always get the days off that I want. I win, and the AM flyers win because they can choose what type of pairing that they want.

Fellow PBS-ers please chime in here. I am not the foremost expert on this, just someone who's been tremendously pleased with my schedule for the past 17 years using PBS at two different airlines. For the readers of this who think that I'm letting the cat out of the bag and ruining bargaining leverage by admitting that some pilots want PBS, I respectfully disagree. Management already knows that a lot of pilots prefer to build their schedules than have pre-build, canned lines. A retired airline management exec who is a family friend actually laughed at me when I suggested PBS was some powerful bargaining chip in future negotiations. Anecdotal, I know... but it really changed my opinion on the matter.

And there are some things in life that are not zero-sum. Sometimes something that is good for a work group is also good for management and vice-versa. I believe EFB's would fall into that category.

I remember when EFB's first came out, pilots were actually COMPLAINING that they couldn't highlight things on their charts anymore.

My point is, pilots can be brilliant in working against their best interests (forgive me for the directness of that statement/opinion).

I truly write this with respect to all pilots. My wish is that we all educate ourselves, fight for, and DEMAND a decent work/life balance.

Life is short. Days off are precious. Let's get together and fight for a system that allows everyone to win (aka, pilots that want to fly 90 hours win, and pilots that want to fly 70 hours win. Pilots that want to fly PM's win, and the AM flyers win as well). Bidding systems such as this already exist.

Not sarcastic this time. I am at NK, so I've been reading up on PBS and cautiously optimistic about the change for me (I need to bid around my wife on a weekly based schedule, and most of our lines are atrocious 14 days off total, 4/5 on, 4/5 off). For us most of the loss came from loss of transition and vacation overlap.

All Bizniz
07-08-2018, 04:52 PM
Not sarcastic this time. I am at NK, so I've been reading up on PBS and cautiously optimistic about the change for me (I need to bid around my wife on a weekly based schedule, and most of our lines are atrocious 14 days off total, 4/5 on, 4/5 off). For us most of the loss came from loss of transition and vacation overlap.

All things being equal on the scheduling provisions in the contract, PBS is more flexible. It will definitely allow you to bid around your wife's schedule, typically in one shot, even if her days off vary from week to week.

Over the years on the VX side, I've basically never missed an important family commitment/business meeting/social event at home.... unless I really wanted to :)

All Bizniz
07-08-2018, 05:10 PM
But as a gross simplification, even if the pairings are sub-standard.. it's better to choose which substandard pairings you'll fly and what days of the week you will fly them on. This is HUGE when you need certain days off foily events.

Fellow PBS-ers please chime in here. I am not the foremost expert on this, just someone who's been tremendously pleased with my schedule for the past 17 years using PBS at two different airlines. For the readers of this who think that I'm letting the cat out of the bag and ruining bargaining leverage by admitting that some pilots want PBS, I respectfully disagree. Management already knows that a lot of pilots prefer to build their schedules than have pre-build, canned lines. A retired airline management exec who is a family friend actually laughed at me when I suggested PBS was some powerful bargaining chip in future negotiations. Anecdotal, I know... but it really changed my opinion on the matter.

Yep.. If I'm gonna get crappy trips, let me serve myself the crappy trips I prefer cause at least I'll probably be able to wrangle the days off I want without breaking a sweat.

And yes.... Give airline managers credit... They've known for a long time that PBS is a win-win for both sides and that pilots will/do like it. It's an open secret..

The question is, down the road, are we willing to NOT vote it in if necessary, if the scheduling provisions suck. I love PBS, but personally, I'm willing to walk away from that deal, if the scheduling language is not satisfactory.

We've got to get PBS right, the first time it ever shows up on property.

ShyGuy
07-08-2018, 05:48 PM
Crew Access cutover by October means we'll be bidding in September using the new system. We can't even get into Crew Access right now. They say there'll be training. Right, just like that Fedex letter some of us are supposed to receive. :rolleyes: Most likely they are gonna just open it up to us in September and it's gonna be a self-study learn by trial. We have no clue what Step trading 1 and 2 look like in real life. Will they spend the resources to let us do a mock trial run of line bidding, step trading, and all the other crap that's necessary to form a schedule?

MusicPilot
07-09-2018, 06:53 AM
I asked to do a parallel bid and got shot down. As for PBS vs line bidding, at the end of the day the company builds pairings the way they see fit. They then toss them into 1 big pot. Now, would you rather dig out of the pot and make your own line or have the company dig out of the pot and make all the lines? See, line bidding gives the company more control period. Thatís what many complain about PBS, but in reality itís the other way around. PBS gives the company more efficient pilots, this less of them in which they want to utilize it.

KnockKnock
07-09-2018, 08:15 AM
I asked to do a parallel bid and got shot down. As for PBS vs line bidding, at the end of the day the company builds pairings the way they see fit. They then toss them into 1 big pot. Now, would you rather dig out of the pot and make your own line or have the company dig out of the pot and make all the lines? See, line bidding gives the company more control period. Thatís what many complain about PBS, but in reality itís the other way around. PBS gives the company more efficient pilots, this less of them in which they want to utilize it.
This might be hearsay but isn’t one of the reasons we stopped hiring into the Airbus is because management found how to maximize efficiency with your PBS system and now finds the Airbus side overstaffed? In CQ, one of the instructors said the Airbus staffing model was way off and the company is now exploiting the loopholes. Yes, hiring has frozen on both airplanes but it stopped for the Bus long before the Boeing and I’ve heard when it resumes, it will be Boeing first. So do these “efficiencies” equate to even less hiring? I understand the QOL on the Airbus is slipping further and further away, from what it was, as AAG takes total control of the system. I would be hesitant to accept any system that furthers managements stranglehold of our “efficiency” while furthering the stagnation of pilot hiring. Plus, when the pot of pairings gets picked through, what’s left for the junior guys? When I worked under PBS, there wasn’t much left for anyone under 25-30% in the seat.

ShyGuy
07-09-2018, 08:34 AM
This might be hearsay but isnít one of the reasons we stopped hiring into the Airbus is because management found how to maximize efficiency with your PBS system and now finds the Airbus side overstaffed? In CQ, one of the instructors said the Airbus staffing model was way off and the company is now exploiting the loopholes. Yes, hiring has frozen on both airplanes but it stopped for the Bus long before the Boeing and Iíve heard when it resumes, it will be Boeing first. So do these ďefficienciesĒ equate to even less hiring? I understand the QOL on the Airbus is slipping further and further away, from what it was, as AAG takes total control of the system. I would be hesitant to accept any system that furthers managements stranglehold of our ďefficiencyĒ while furthering the stagnation of pilot hiring. Plus, when the pot of pairings gets picked through, whatís left for the junior guys? When I worked under PBS, there wasnít much left for anyone under 25-30% in the seat.

The junior guys do fine too. When I was 80% I still did pretty good for my trips bid, and more importantly my days off bid. As for the rest, the airbus hiring stopped end of January followed quickly by Boeing. The 4% growth rate is the main reason for the slowdown. On the Airbus side, itís also the repainting and new interiors that is going to happen on the entire fleet in 18 months. Thatís a fairly aggressive schedule, and will take planes out for weeks at a time. And yeah, weíre overstaffed on the Airbus side. Thatís why there are daily emails offering premium pay to cover trips. :rolleyes:

Serious question: why would anyone come here anymore? 620 retirements in 10 years out of 2,900. Thatís barely 21% of the list. If you want ANC thereís Fedex/UPS. SEA is Delta, SF United, and LAX all 4 legacy carriers. PDX is the only unique AS base.

Slim6890
07-09-2018, 08:54 AM
"Serious question: why would anyone come here anymore? 620 retirements in 10 years out of 2,900. Thatís barely 21% of the list. If you want ANC thereís Fedex/UPS. SEA is Delta, SF United, and LAX all 4 legacy carriers. PDX is the only unique AS base."

People will come but they won't stay.

KnockKnock
07-09-2018, 09:17 AM
The junior guys do fine too. When I was 80% I still did pretty good for my trips bid, and more importantly my days off bid. As for the rest, the airbus hiring stopped end of January followed quickly by Boeing. The 4% growth rate is the main reason for the slowdown. On the Airbus side, itís also the repainting and new interiors that is going to happen on the entire fleet in 18 months. Thatís a fairly aggressive schedule, and will take planes out for weeks at a time. And yeah, weíre overstaffed on the Airbus side. Thatís why there are daily emails offering premium pay to cover trips. :rolleyes:

Serious question: why would anyone come here anymore? 620 retirements in 10 years out of 2,900. Thatís barely 21% of the list. If you want ANC thereís Fedex/UPS. SEA is Delta, SF United, and LAX all 4 legacy carriers. PDX is the only unique AS base.
Pilots have asked the, “why come here”, question about EVERY airline in existence. You know that one day an airline is scrapping along barely able to keep the doors open and the next, they’re the IT place to be. It’s happened at UAL, DAL, SW, FDX, UPS, AA....... We all go to where it works best for us and that will never change. My personal opinion is that the current cycle we find ourselves in at AS, like all other cycles, will reverse for the better. Worst case, or best case, depending on how you look at it, AS gets absorbed into another bigger airline and life goes on.

MusicPilot
07-09-2018, 09:28 AM
Pilots have asked the, ďwhy come hereĒ, question about EVERY airline in existence. You know that one day an airline is scrapping along barely able to keep the doors open and the next, theyíre the IT place to be. Itís happened at UAL, DAL, SW, FDX, UPS, AA....... We all go to where it works best for us and that will never change. My personal opinion is that the current cycle we find ourselves in at AS, like all other cycles, will reverse for the better. Worst case, or best case, depending on how you look at it, AS gets absorbed into another bigger airline and life goes on.

Seems like AS is on a 86+ year cycle then. But of course when youíre top 20% then it always seems ďsuperiorĒ.

rickair7777
07-09-2018, 09:35 AM
"Serious question: why would anyone come here anymore? 620 retirements in 10 years out of 2,900. That’s barely 21% of the list. If you want ANC there’s Fedex/UPS. SEA is Delta, SF United, and LAX all 4 legacy carriers. PDX is the only unique AS base."

People will come but they won't stay.

Plenty of folks back at the (west coast) regional who would kill for a job at AS. If I spent the morning on the phone I could probably get a 100 volunteers to start in two weeks. Would they stay? Depends on growth(merger?), age, family, competitiveness, and opportunity.

KnockKnock
07-09-2018, 09:50 AM
Plenty of folks back at the (west coast) regional who would kill for a job at AS. If I spent the morning on the phone I could probably get a 100 volunteers to start in two weeks. Would they stay? Depends on growth(merger?), age, family, competitiveness, and opportunity.
I agree, I don’t think any airline out there will have problems filling classes as long as the regional model, as we know it today, still exists. Just the same as regionals will always fill classes as long as CFI’s, Jump pilots, banner towers, etc. are still looking for jobs. Just look at QX. The wheels were falling off last year and now they don’t seem to have problems filling classes. As I said above, pilots will go to a place that works best for them regardless of being a #1 company.

KnockKnock
07-09-2018, 10:05 AM
Seems like AS is on a 86+ year cycle then. But of course when youíre top 20% then it always seems ďsuperiorĒ.
Well, a quick look back in time will show you that AS was briefly at the top of the cycle after the industry collapse in the early 2000’s. A lotta pilots came knocking on AS’s doors when their bigger, better, companies laid them off, cut their pensions or went out of business all together. That was about 18-13 years ago. Just slightly less than 86 years as you say. I don’t know about you but I’m about 50% away from being in that coveted 20% of the company. I do know a few guys who are in the 20% range and as far as I can tell, they don’t think of themselves or the company as “superior” but who knows. I don’t hang out with them after work.

Arctichicken
07-09-2018, 10:27 AM
Post 9/11 to the time when hiring slowly picked back up again, Alaska was a coveted place to work by default. Every one of my friends who were with the big 5 then were furloughed and/or took huge concessions. I had friends knocking on my door for a job with Alaska but none of them got on but fortunately for them, life worked out eventually and made it out with only minor scratches. Remember, the pendulum never stops swinging.
We can all agree that Alaska Airlines can only shine when their competitors can't perform. Case in point-our last JDP.

Packrat
07-09-2018, 01:00 PM
You all seem to think AS management would let you have ANY input on the PBS algorithm.

Good luck with that.

av8or
07-09-2018, 02:45 PM
You all seem to think AS management would let you have ANY input on the PBS algorithm.

Good luck with that.

I donít mean this to sound conscending at all, so please donít take it this way....

Is ďstrike voteĒ even in your vocabulary? Im just curious, not knowing the history,.... Iíve never seen such regularly defeatist rhetoric from group. ďTheyíll never do this or that.Ē ďGood luck with that.Ē Etc seems to be regularly said in response to very reasonable changes. Yíall always been that way, or did that Kasher thing just totally pride cut your will?

Klsytakesit
07-09-2018, 03:26 PM
Plenty of folks back at the (west coast) regional who would kill for a job at AS. If I spent the morning on the phone I could probably get a 100 volunteers to start in two weeks. Would they stay? Depends on growth(merger?), age, family, competitiveness, and opportunity.

We are a west coast regional...

4andCounting
07-09-2018, 06:54 PM
The junior guys do fine too. When I was 80% I still did pretty good for my trips bid, and more importantly my days off bid. As for the rest, the airbus hiring stopped end of January followed quickly by Boeing. The 4% growth rate is the main reason for the slowdown. On the Airbus side, itís also the repainting and new interiors that is going to happen on the entire fleet in 18 months. Thatís a fairly aggressive schedule, and will take planes out for weeks at a time. And yeah, weíre overstaffed on the Airbus side. Thatís why there are daily emails offering premium pay to cover trips. :rolleyes:

Serious question: why would anyone come here anymore? 620 retirements in 10 years out of 2,900. Thatís barely 21% of the list. If you want ANC thereís Fedex/UPS. SEA is Delta, SF United, and LAX all 4 legacy carriers. PDX is the only unique AS base.

This is no longer true. I'm holding 70% captain SFO now and QOL is all but done. I can barely hold 15 days off on a non flex month. Most of the time I'm 14 or 13 days and only 50% commutable at best. The only thing I can avoid is the crap OGG Red eyes. I spend my mon5h hunting open time trying to swap to more efficient trips. I Can increase pay, but they will never give you an extra day off the whole grid is red.

EskimoJoe
07-09-2018, 07:12 PM
I donít mean this to sound conscending at all, so please donít take it this way....

Is ďstrike voteĒ even in your vocabulary? Im just curious, not knowing the history,.... Iíve never seen such regularly defeatist rhetoric from group. ďTheyíll never do this or that.Ē ďGood luck with that.Ē Etc seems to be regularly said in response to very reasonable changes. Yíall always been that way, or did that Kasher thing just totally pride cut your will?


How long have you been in this industry?

av8or
07-10-2018, 01:53 AM
How long have you been in this industry?

30 years. Got a 15 year Alpa pin. Been furloughed from a major carrier that had a better contract in 2001. Walked picket lines for my airline as well as others. Voted yes on a strike vote. Etc. Thatís how long.

Packrat
07-10-2018, 08:39 AM
I don’t mean this to sound conscending at all, so please don’t take it this way....

Is “strike vote” even in your vocabulary?

Yep. And AS ALPA has presented the Company with them a number of times. The key vote isn't the strike vote. Its the vote that occurs when a contract offer is ratified by the membership. Just getting membership ratification was a big deal. Alaska ALPA used to have MEC ratification.

Just be glad you weren't around in those days.

AS management isn't impressed with strike votes. Never have been.

av8or
07-10-2018, 10:51 AM
Yep. And AS ALPA has presented the Company with them a number of times. The key vote isn't the strike vote. Its the vote that occurs when a contract offer is ratified by the membership. Just getting membership ratification was a big deal. Alaska ALPA used to have MEC ratification.

Just be glad you weren't around in those days.

AS management isn't impressed with strike votes. Never have been.

What ARE they impressed with... thatís legal?

Packrat
07-10-2018, 01:47 PM
What ARE they impressed with... thatís legal?

They're not impressed because they know the President (whatever party) will not allow a strike to impact the State of Alaska. You know there's a big oil business up there, don't you? No impact will ever be allowed that would impact the Strategic Oil Reserve if for no other reason.

Alaska pilots are doomed to arbitration now and forever and the Company knows that.

SmoothLanderJ
07-10-2018, 04:14 PM
Yep. And AS ALPA has presented the Company with them a number of times. The key vote isn't the strike vote. Its the vote that occurs when a contract offer is ratified by the membership. Just getting membership ratification was a big deal. Alaska ALPA used to have MEC ratification.

Just be glad you weren't around in those days.

AS management isn't impressed with strike votes. Never have been.

They're not impressed because they know the President (whatever party) will not allow a strike to impact the State of Alaska. You know there's a big oil business up there, don't you? No impact will ever be allowed that would impact the Strategic Oil Reserve if for no other reason.

Alaska pilots are doomed to arbitration now and forever and the Company knows that.

Wow, that is depressing, but makes total sense.

av8or
07-10-2018, 04:39 PM
They're not impressed because they know the President (whatever party) will not allow a strike to impact the State of Alaska. You know there's a big oil business up there, don't you? No impact will ever be allowed that would impact the Strategic Oil Reserve if for no other reason.

Alaska pilots are doomed to arbitration now and forever and the Company knows that.

Hmm.... interesting perspective. Well, if thatís true, and there are no other legal pressure points. Yep... youíre/weíre screwed.

And yeah... Iím aware thereís a ďbig oil business up thereĒ. Lol Just cause yíall donít know how to make decent BBQ doesnít mean we donít know about where oil comes from. 😉

KnockKnock
07-10-2018, 06:20 PM
They're not impressed because they know the President (whatever party) will not allow a strike to impact the State of Alaska. You know there's a big oil business up there, don't you? No impact will ever be allowed that would impact the Strategic Oil Reserve if for no other reason.

Alaska pilots are doomed to arbitration now and forever and the Company knows that.
We’re only doomed to arbitration if we sign off on it. I can’t imagine the NC agreeing to more, “thank you sir, may I have another”, treatment.

DangleDunlops
07-10-2018, 08:33 PM
Weíre only doomed to arbitration if we sign off on it. I canít imagine the NC agreeing to more, ďthank you sir, may I have anotherĒ, treatment.

Put it on the list.

EskimoJoe
07-10-2018, 09:28 PM
30 years. Got a 15 year Alpa pin. Been furloughed from a major carrier that had a better contract in 2001. Walked picket lines for my airline as well as others. Voted yes on a strike vote. Etc. That’s how long.


Cool. I'm 24 years with 22 in ALPA. I was also at another Major before 9-11 and Got furloughed. The contract back then was also better than the current Alaska one (work rules for sure, money about the same adjusted for inflation) but that's apples and oranges. Why? Because after 9-11 that awesome contract was obliterated...completely obliterated. In the post 9-11 world, No airline in America had a contract comparable to Alaska's. That's not because it was so great, it's because the entire industry fell in a cascading, calving collapse around it. BTW, that awesome pre-9-11 contract is STILL not back at said Legacy. It's lost for the foreseeable future. In my years at Alaska, we have taken a strike vote. I've done informational Picketing here as well. Surely, after 30 years in the industry, you must know what a worthless, meaningless gesture that is.



When was the last strike of a Legacy Carrier? Remember American in 1998 and their sick out? That cost the APA every last penny in their coffers. Sure, Spirit went on strike for about 3 days or whatever it was but they don't really count. Do you really think Alaska Airlines pilots will EVER be allowed to strike? We are the only game in town for much of the entire state. A state, BTW, that is so geographically large, if over-laid on the lower 48, it would stretch from Seattle to Jacksonville Florida. A Strike at Alaska will NEVER happen and we all know it...therefore, a "strike vote" is a complete joke. I'm willing to fight for fair contract, we all are, but let's be real. This management DOES NOT NEGOTIATE. They don't have to. They are uniquely positioned to give us the finger for years with no real legal consequences. Is that a defeatist attitude or simple reality? I'd say the latter.



OTOH, Given your 3 decades in aviation, I'd hope, by now, you'd be able to appreciate some positive aspects at Alaska. Sure, we aren't Delta. However, I'm going to clear 300k of cash compensation this year very easily. Full benefits, an A plan, a DC plan maxed to Federal "all sources" Limits, 30+ days vacation...etc. Good luck finding a comparable job outside of aviation. You were furloughed, were you offered any jobs with a total compensation package like that? I sure as hell wasn't. I set the brake, go home, and forget all about the Eskimo...Life isn't so bad...and when my schedule becomes too challenging and fatiguing, I address it. Problem solved. That's the system management seems to want. fine. I really do have better sh*t to do than worry about work/union issues all the time and where the proverbial grass may be (temporarily)greener. So I don't. I'm a clock punching line puke with no ambitions beyond that.

waterboy
07-10-2018, 10:06 PM
OTOH, Given your 3 decades in aviation, I'd hope, by now, you'd be able to appreciate some positive aspects at Alaska. Sure, we aren't Delta. However, I'm going to clear 300k of cash compensation this year very easily. Full benefits, an A plan, a DC plan maxed to Federal "all sources" Limits, 30+ days vacation...etc. Good luck finding a comparable job outside of aviation. You were furloughed, were you offered any jobs with a total compensation package like that? I sure as hell wasn't. I set the brake, go home, and forget all about the Eskimo...Life isn't so bad...and when my schedule becomes too challenging and fatiguing, I address it. Problem solved. That's the system management seems to want. fine. I really do have better sh*t to do than worry about work/union issues all the time and where the proverbial grass may be (temporarily)greener. So I don't. I'm a clock punching line puke with no ambitions beyond that.

Just put the popcorn in the microwave...I can't wait!

EskimoJoe
07-10-2018, 11:24 PM
Just put the popcorn in the microwave...I can't wait!


I'm Hardly alone. All TOS Captains have the same opportunities. The retirement plan is a little convoluted thanks to the last arbitration but in the end, the money is the same. Not really all that interesting.

av8or
07-11-2018, 06:10 AM
Cool. I'm 24 years with 22 in ALPA. I was also at another Major before 9-11 and Got furloughed. The contract back then was also better than the current Alaska one (work rules for sure, money about the same adjusted for inflation) but that's apples and oranges. Why? Because after 9-11 that awesome contract was obliterated...completely obliterated. In the post 9-11 world, No airline in America had a contract comparable to Alaska's. That's not because it was so great, it's because the entire industry fell in a cascading, calving collapse around it. BTW, that awesome pre-9-11 contract is STILL not back at said Legacy. It's lost for the foreseeable future. In my years at Alaska, we have taken a strike vote. I've done informational Picketing here as well. Surely, after 30 years in the industry, you must know what a worthless, meaningless gesture that is.



When was the last strike of a Legacy Carrier? Remember American in 1998 and their sick out? That cost the APA every last penny in their coffers. Sure, Spirit went on strike for about 3 days or whatever it was but they don't really count. Do you really think Alaska Airlines pilots will EVER be allowed to strike? We are the only game in town for much of the entire state. A state, BTW, that is so geographically large, if over-laid on the lower 48, it would stretch from Seattle to Jacksonville Florida. A Strike at Alaska will NEVER happen and we all know it...therefore, a "strike vote" is a complete joke. I'm willing to fight for fair contract, we all are, but let's be real. This management DOES NOT NEGOTIATE. They don't have to. They are uniquely positioned to give us the finger for years with no real legal consequences. Is that a defeatist attitude or simple reality? I'd say the latter.



OTOH, Given your 3 decades in aviation, I'd hope, by now, you'd be able to appreciate some positive aspects at Alaska. Sure, we aren't Delta. However, I'm going to clear 300k of cash compensation this year very easily. Full benefits, an A plan, a DC plan maxed to Federal "all sources" Limits, 30+ days vacation...etc. Good luck finding a comparable job outside of aviation. You were furloughed, were you offered any jobs with a total compensation package like that? I sure as hell wasn't. I set the brake, go home, and forget all about the Eskimo...Life isn't so bad...and when my schedule becomes too challenging and fatiguing, I address it. Problem solved. That's the system management seems to want. fine. I really do have better sh*t to do than worry about work/union issues all the time and where the proverbial grass may be (temporarily)greener. So I don't. I'm a clock punching line puke with no ambitions beyond that.

1st... just so weíre clear.... I was just answering the question ďhow long have you been in this business?Ē

2nd... the contract I was talking about was POST 9/11... and yes, nearly every major passenger airline contract got blown away after 9/11.. we agree

3rd... after several responses here, itís becoming more clear as to why the contract is comparatively lacking
A. Since we canít strike, negotiations
are an exercise in futility.
B. I live in base, I finally made it to
the tenderloin of the contract, I
have a great schedule, money and
bennies, so thereís no way Iím
upsetting that apple cart.

4th... Since nobody has answered my question ďwhat DO they listen to?Ē, I can only assume that our singular negotiating position is ďSee point 3.a.Ē

Not bein a smarta$$ when I say I genuinely appreciate the education. Itíll help me understand the culture/philosophy guiding negotiations in 2020

KnockKnock
07-11-2018, 06:49 AM
1st... just so weíre clear.... I was just answering the question ďhow long have you been in this business?Ē

2nd... the contract I was talking about was POST 9/11... and yes, nearly every major passenger airline contract got blown away after 9/11.. we agree

3rd... after several responses here, itís becoming more clear as to why the contract is comparatively lacking
A. Since we canít strike, negotiations
are an exercise in futility.
B. I live in base, I finally made it to
the tenderloin of the contract, I
have a great schedule, money and
bennies, so thereís no way Iím
upsetting that apple cart.

4th... Since nobody has answered my question ďwhat DO they listen to?Ē, I can only assume that our singular negotiating position is ďSee point 3.a.Ē

Not bein a smarta$$ when I say I genuinely appreciate the education. Itíll help me understand the culture/philosophy guiding negotiations in 2020
The only thing management listens to is the sound of the parking break being set for extended periods of time. Airplanes not moving perks their ears right up. That happens a few different ways. Our interns in IT screw the system up, enough guys leave for other airlines all at once, they can't attract enough new pilots or they make our schedules so fatiguing, we have to stay home to recoupe. I don't think we're in any special circumstance when it comes to striking. Certainly no more than UAL in Houston with their rich oil industry or any airline in any big city where they're the dominant carrier. The size of the state doesn't matter if the population is only a fraction of that of other smaller states. Alaska Airlines management is bound by the same rules as all the others and we'll find the soft spots.

Mudhen200
07-11-2018, 07:07 AM
EskimoJoe - outstand post! Post of the year award for accuracy right there!

PackRat - you are 100% correct as well sir. Folks who have never spent any time in the bush or even heard of SCC don't understand.

So what does Alaska "Senior Leadership" (as they love to call themselves) listen to? The BOD - and that's about it. They will not make a move that goes against their paradigm / plan / business model unless absolutely brought to their knees by the consequences of their own actions.

Need proof? You need to look no farther than Horizon Air last summer. That disaster last summer was years in the making. The employees saw it coming. The line employees all the way up to mid level management were telling "senior leadership" about the mess that was building for literally years. Senior leadership didn't want to hear it as it did not fit their paradigm / business model - so they just buried their head in the sand. I think the final result was something like $17 million wasted? If they were going to "spend" $17 million one way or the other, I would have preferred they have spent it on the hard working employees of Horizon Air.

Remember our awesome (and unfortunately temporary) SCP who was told to do something impossible in a meeting? When he told them that what they were asking could not be done he was told to "shut up" by BM? Classy senior leadership. They prefer to live in their own world, reality need not apply.

So - the only way to effect change around here is for the entire system to break down - Horizon Air style. If the jets are on the ground, if the entire system melts, then the BOD will take action, and change will slowly come.

There will never be a strike as previously mention by others. We are Alaska. The State of Alaska will not function without us. Way to much money involved in Oil and general services to the bush communities. OTZ, BET, BRW, OME, not to mention all of Southeast will run out of milk and eggs in a few days without us. One or two phone calls from these tribal leaders to the governor and you can forget about a strike.

It's sad but true. The only way to effect change around here is for the entire airline to nearly collapse. Horizon seems to have survived it last summer. Maybe we will survive it to?

Saltlife85
07-11-2018, 07:39 AM
Arenít there plenty of other carriers that could support the lift if AS pilots were to released by the NMB? Thereís got to be a ton of charter, 135, cargo, etc that could fill in for a certain time frame.

Moose
07-11-2018, 08:31 AM
Eskimo Joe,
You and ďclock outĒ guys like you are why we are in the situation we are. Apathetic clock-punchers who vote purely in their own special interests at the expense of everyone else here and the industry. Iíll bet you were one of the guys who said, regarding pay rates on the 09 contract....Ēit better have a 2 in the front.Ē So stupid. Well...you got $200/hour. You got your 2 while all the FOs were screwed because of the fíd up slope you couldnít care less about. You, as a senior captain, ďwho got hisĒ probably refused to hold your corrupt MEC accountable because you were ďclocked out.Ē Iím telling you, worrying about everyone here and taking a few minutes here and there to try and fix things vs pulling up the ladder after ďyou got yoursĒ wound have helped a lot. Instead, you and your ilk were probably too busy bailing the company out by flying premium last summer. Canít wait for the top quarter to retire and move on. Pathetic embarrassment to everyone here and the industry.

ShyGuy
07-11-2018, 09:07 AM
Ok, I can understand having weaker work rules and scheduling because the majority live in base and drive to work. But thats still no reason for not having scope. As the guy above said, the last contract was all about $200/hr and that was obtained as 12th yr CA pay at 2013 contract signing. The clock out guys got what they wanted. It was insulting to read the JCBA arbitrator comments on scope, but even they acknowledged that AS pilots never pushed for scope and management mentioned in the transcripts that scope came up only momentarily, but the pilots prioritized higher pay instead and the company went with it.

But hey, if youíre retiring in less than 5-7 yrs, so who cares about scope right? :rolleyes:

EskimoJoe
07-11-2018, 09:17 AM
Eskimo Joe,
You and ďclock outĒ guys like you are why we are in the situation we are. Apathetic clock-punchers who vote purely in their own special interests at the expense of everyone else here and the industry. Iíll bet you were one of the guys who said, regarding pay rates on the 09 contract....Ēit better have a 2 in the front.Ē So stupid. Well...you got $200/hour. You got your 2 while all the FOs were screwed because of the fíd up slope you couldnít care less about. You, as a senior captain, ďwho got hisĒ probably refused to hold your corrupt MEC accountable because you were ďclocked out.Ē Iím telling you, worrying about everyone here and taking a few minutes here and there to try and fix things vs pulling up the ladder after ďyou got yoursĒ wound have helped a lot. Instead, you and your ilk were probably too busy bailing the company out by flying premium last summer. Canít wait for the top quarter to retire and move on. Pathetic embarrassment to everyone here and the industry.


Right. Firstly, I have never voted YES on a contract here. Secondly, I'm a very Jr Captain and was an FO during the 2009 contract vote...again, I voted No. When the top quarter of the list is gone, I'm happy to inform you I'll still be here for quite a while. The FO's are "screwed" (at least in your mind) because of Alaska Management and their out weighed influence in Arbitration. The Slope is what it is because Management wants it that way and, as per usual in arbitration, they got what they wanted. Also, I commute. I've never picked up a premium trip or VSA'd in my life. It's too much of a hassle even when appropriate to do so.


Perhaps you'd be better served if you set aside your Millennial angst and sense of entitlement and focused on the reality of the situation. Your reactions certainly sounds as if it's fueled by your own self interests...which in your mind I guess you're entitled to do but no one else? What exactly do you propose this pilot group do to achieve our collective goals in 2020? Before you answer, I suggest you read up on the Railway Labor Act before you fly into the predictable, knee jerk, chest pounding tirade of regurgitated, unobtainable wishes that guys like you always espouse in these situations. The RLA is very real and you need to wrap your mind around what it actually means.



You were probably in the 4th grade in 1998, but look up what happened at American Airlines and the APA during their sick out. Is that your idea of a successful outcome? You are an employee. You get a W2. You have a union, and a contract. You and I will never run this airline. Frankly, I don't want to. I want the airline to be profitable because I've experienced what life looks like when your employer is bleeding money uncontrollably. Think unemployment check. When the union asks us to step up and help engage the company in 2020, I'll be there. I always am. That's when it matters. Until then, I set the brake, go home, rejoin my real life and forget all about the Eskimo. You can scream at the ocean all you want. I can't hear you anyway.

Packrat
07-11-2018, 10:40 AM
Arenít there plenty of other carriers that could support the lift if AS pilots were to released by the NMB? Thereís got to be a ton of charter, 135, cargo, etc that could fill in for a certain time frame.

All of the carriers that operate cargo in Alaska cannot cope with the loss of even ONE of the airlines working up here. Example: For a short period of time before the Alaska Freighters came on line there was literally MILLIONS of pounds of cargo standing on ramps awaiting transport.

And don't forget moving the passengers. Shared Services cannot move the number of oil workers needed on the slope, much less the folks that need to come and go from the villages.

Plus you can't just toss Outside freight haulers into the Alaska environment and expect them to be successful. An old timer once told me that it takes about 2 years of flying in the State of Alaska before you've seen everything it can toss at you. Even then you can get a nasty surprise.

Take it for what its worth.

Packrat
07-11-2018, 11:48 AM
Remember our awesome (and unfortunately temporary) SCP who was told to do something impossible in a meeting? When he told them that what they were asking could not be done he was told to "shut up" by BM? Classy senior leadership. They prefer to live in their own world, reality need not apply.

Reminds me of the time one of the Check Airmen was directed to call Boeing and ask if we could single engine ferry from Lihue to Honolulu because and engine change would be cheaper there.

He protested but was told to make the call anyway. He got about two minutes of "Ho, ho, ho" from Boeing. Guess the managers have never heard of Vmcg.

av8or
07-11-2018, 12:00 PM
Right. Firstly, I have never voted YES on a contract here. Secondly, I'm a very Jr Captain and was an FO during the 2009 contract vote...again, I voted No. When the top quarter of the list is gone, I'm happy to inform you I'll still be here for quite a while. The FO's are "screwed" (at least in your mind) because of Alaska Management and their out weighed influence in Arbitration. The Slope is what it is because Management wants it that way and, as per usual in arbitration, they got what they wanted. Also, I commute. I've never picked up a premium trip or VSA'd in my life. It's too much of a hassle even when appropriate to do so.


Perhaps you'd be better served if you set aside your Millennial angst and sense of entitlement and focused on the reality of the situation. Your reactions certainly sounds as if it's fueled by your own self interests...which in your mind I guess you're entitled to do but no one else? What exactly do you propose this pilot group do to achieve our collective goals in 2020? Before you answer, I suggest you read up on the Railway Labor Act before you fly into the predictable, knee jerk, chest pounding tirade of regurgitated, unobtainable wishes that guys like you always espouse in these situations. The RLA is very real and you need to wrap your mind around what it actually means.



You were probably in the 4th grade in 1998, but look up what happened at American Airlines and the APA during their sick out. Is that your idea of a successful outcome? You are an employee. You get a W2. You have a union, and a contract. You and I will never run this airline. Frankly, I don't want to. I want the airline to be profitable because I've experienced what life looks like when your employer is bleeding money uncontrollably. Think unemployment check. When the union asks us to step up and help engage the company in 2020, I'll be there. I always am. That's when it matters. Until then, I set the brake, go home, rejoin my real life and forget all about the Eskimo. You can scream at the ocean all you want. I can't hear you anyway.

So I totally agree with the principle of not killin the golden goose. But with that in mind couple of genuine questions:

Since it seems to be the position that the ultimate form of legal relief is off the table, and the only contractual changes are out of the charity of managements heart, (because ultimately negotiations is just whistlin past the graveyard).

How do you explain the gains made by Delta, United, American, JetBlue etc on scope, work rules and pay?

I asked before but nobody has answered. If the only threat in negotiations is an arbitrator not ruling in their favor, (which is no threat at all) what else is left? Image? The ďhappy familyĒ facade? BM has already said heís willing to sacrifice that.... so whatís left if anything?

OTZeagle1
07-11-2018, 01:37 PM
Well I hope Q2 surprises. AAL market cap has shrunk to 16B, AS is 7.5. UAL canít get out of its own way. On the AS side I have heard of 70 Captains overstaffed. If things donít change 40 A320 down grades and 30 Boeing are coming this fall. That should change the rhetoric around here. You all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Step up do your job, do a good job, build a great company and maybe in 2020 you will be able to negotiate improvements. Drag your feet, cry like children and see what we get.

WutFace
07-11-2018, 01:57 PM
Well I hope Q2 surprises. AAL market cap has shrunk to 16B, AS is 7.5. UAL canít get out of its own way. On the AS side I have heard of 70 Captains overstaffed. If things donít change 40 A320 down grades and 30 Boeing are coming this fall. That should change the rhetoric around here. You all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Step up do your job, do a good job, build a great company and maybe in 2020 you will be able to negotiate improvements. Drag your feet, cry like children and see what we get.

Just retire. Please.

Ispeakjive
07-11-2018, 03:34 PM
Well I hope Q2 surprises. AAL market cap has shrunk to 16B, AS is 7.5. UAL canít get out of its own way. On the AS side I have heard of 70 Captains overstaffed. If things donít change 40 A320 down grades and 30 Boeing are coming this fall. That should change the rhetoric around here. You all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Step up do your job, do a good job, build a great company and maybe in 2020 you will be able to negotiate improvements. Drag your feet, cry like children and see what we get.

Loser. Still at it?

Moose
07-11-2018, 06:05 PM
Right. Firstly, I have never voted YES on a contract here. Secondly, I'm a very Jr Captain and was an FO during the 2009 contract vote...again, I voted No. When the top quarter of the list is gone, I'm happy to inform you I'll still be here for quite a while. The FO's are "screwed" (at least in your mind) because of Alaska Management and their out weighed influence in Arbitration. The Slope is what it is because Management wants it that way and, as per usual in arbitration, they got what they wanted. Also, I commute. I've never picked up a premium trip or VSA'd in my life. It's too much of a hassle even when appropriate to do so.


Perhaps you'd be better served if you set aside your Millennial angst and sense of entitlement and focused on the reality of the situation. Your reactions certainly sounds as if it's fueled by your own self interests...which in your mind I guess you're entitled to do but no one else? What exactly do you propose this pilot group do to achieve our collective goals in 2020? Before you answer, I suggest you read up on the Railway Labor Act before you fly into the predictable, knee jerk, chest pounding tirade of regurgitated, unobtainable wishes that guys like you always espouse in these situations. The RLA is very real and you need to wrap your mind around what it actually means.



You were probably in the 4th grade in 1998, but look up what happened at American Airlines and the APA during their sick out. Is that your idea of a successful outcome? You are an employee. You get a W2. You have a union, and a contract. You and I will never run this airline. Frankly, I don't want to. I want the airline to be profitable because I've experienced what life looks like when your employer is bleeding money uncontrollably. Think unemployment check. When the union asks us to step up and help engage the company in 2020, I'll be there. I always am. That's when it matters. Until then, I set the brake, go home, rejoin my real life and forget all about the Eskimo. You can scream at the ocean all you want. I can't hear you anyway.

Sounds like weíre both about the same seniority. I will say Iím shocked to find that out considering all we went through. But then again, you probably have ďbattered spouse syndrome.Ē No doubt from a company that never quits trying to take everything they can and a union devoid of leadership. Itís tough to fight the good fight. Enjoy your time off. Hopefully the rest of us can help you get more time off and better work rules.

ASpilot0936
07-11-2018, 06:10 PM
There will never be a strike as previously mention by others. We are Alaska. The State of Alaska will not function without us. Way to much money involved in Oil and general services to the bush communities. OTZ, BET, BRW, OME, not to mention all of Southeast will run out of milk and eggs in a few days without us. One or two phone calls from these tribal leaders to the governor and you can forget about a strike.




Wrong. The state will be just fine. You forgot about NAC (who runs jets), RAVN/Hageland, little ACE, Big ACE (who runs jets), & Lynden who will step their game up when we strike. SE want's their eggs that bad, they can deliver them. Stop with this "we're the only game in town crap." No one who knows better is buying it.

And our ALPA better emphasize that fact when mgmt. tries this "we're the only game in town in the state of AK" argument.

av8or
07-11-2018, 06:28 PM
Well I hope Q2 surprises. AAL market cap has shrunk to 16B, AS is 7.5. UAL canít get out of its own way. On the AS side I have heard of 70 Captains overstaffed. If things donít change 40 A320 down grades and 30 Boeing are coming this fall. That should change the rhetoric around here. You all sound like a bunch of cry babies. Step up do your job, do a good job, build a great company and maybe in 2020 you will be able to negotiate improvements. Drag your feet, cry like children and see what we get.

Even though you clearly enjoy posting as a condescending a$$, I have a serious question for ya....

So letís assume we donít get bought. And, we donít grow fast enough through M&A or organic growth....

Whatís to stop Delta, from cutting rates long enough to run us out of our own market the same way Middle Eastern Airlines (Emirates, Etihad) are doing to Delta? Theyíve already started putting pressure on our throat by pressuring code share partners to cut ties.

Whatís our hedge? Weíre pushing back deliveries. Nobody seems to think holding on to our niche long term works.

All Bizniz
07-11-2018, 08:50 PM
Since it seems to be the position that the ultimate form of legal relief is off the table, and the only contractual changes are out of the charity of managements heart, (because ultimately negotiations is just whistlin past the graveyard).

How do you explain the gains made by Delta, United, American, JetBlue etc on scope, work rules and pay?

I asked before but nobody has answered. If the only threat in negotiations is an arbitrator not ruling in their favor, (which is no threat at all) what else is left?

Nothing but crickets.... unfortunately......

OTZeagle1
07-11-2018, 11:35 PM
Even though you clearly enjoy posting as a condescending a$$, I have a serious question for ya....

So letís assume we donít get bought. And, we donít grow fast enough through M&A or organic growth....

Whatís to stop Delta, from cutting rates long enough to run us out of our own market the same way Middle Eastern Airlines (Emirates, Etihad) are doing to Delta? Theyíve already started putting pressure on our throat by pressuring code share partners to cut ties.

Whatís our hedge? Weíre pushing back deliveries. Nobody seems to think holding on to our niche long term works.

Absolutely nothing. The lake is scurrying for dance partners. Buyer or seller, one will happen soon. (2 years tops, likely late this fall early this winter.). Your dreams of contract 2020, I guarantee will not materialize. Relax, do a good job and in the end you will have a good job. **** and moan and destroy our brand and you may find a outcome very hard to swallow.

av8or
07-12-2018, 12:25 AM
Absolutely nothing. The lake is scurrying for dance partners. Buyer or seller, one will happen soon. (2 years tops, likely late this fall early this winter.). Your dreams of contract 2020, I guarantee will not materialize. Relax, do a good job and in the end you will have a good job. **** and moan and destroy our brand and you may find a outcome very hard to swallow.

Iím not moanin brother. I like the job. Iíve worked much harder for less. Enjoy the people. Good equipment. And take pride in bein here. Iím invested. Just trying to get a better feel for the journey ahead.

Mudhen200
07-12-2018, 06:13 AM
Wrong. The state will be just fine. You forgot about NAC (who runs jets), RAVN/Hageland, little ACE, Big ACE (who runs jets), & Lynden who will step their game up when we strike. SE want's their eggs that bad, they can deliver them. Stop with this "we're the only game in town crap." No one who knows better is buying it.

And our ALPA better emphasize that fact when mgmt. tries this "we're the only game in town in the state of AK" argument.

I donít know what to say except that you are completely wrong. The truth is what I and others have stated. We have seen millions of pounds of back logged freight on the ramp simply because the 400 combi was late coming on line or the freighter was broke hard. Thatís truth. Ravn, big and little Ace, Lyndon and all the others will certainly do all they can to provide lift and make money, but they can not handle the volume of freight AND passengers. Do you think that Princess Lisa will let the cries of the tribal leaders fall on deaf ears when they tell her that the kids are outta soda pop in BET, OME, OTZ, and BRW? Donít think she will mind when the pipeline gets shut down due to lack of slopers ? How bout we shut down the largest zinc mine in the world for a week or two? No problem right? Believe what you want but Iíll stick to reality. Just because you donít like the truth does not mean that itís not the truth.

Singlecoil
07-12-2018, 07:22 AM
So a legal job action after going through a 30-day cooling off period need not be a full blown strike. What if we said we would keep operations normal in Alaska, but we wouldnít fly south or east of Seattle? The company would still be crippled, but they wouldnít be able to show pictures of empty shelves in Bethel to pressure the politicians to act.

Packrat
07-12-2018, 08:28 AM
Wrong. The state will be just fine. You forgot about NAC (who runs jets), RAVN/Hageland, little ACE, Big ACE (who runs jets), & Lynden who will step their game up when we strike. SE want's their eggs that bad, they can deliver them. Stop with this "we're the only game in town crap."

True, you're not the only game in town. But with the amount of freight that the listed carriers (you forgot Everts Air Cargo!) have to move on their own, losing Alaska freighter/belly freight creates and overwhelming backlog that the named carriers can't make up.

Perhaps you should limit your commentary to passenger ops because you obviously know zero about what the freight haulers in Alaska are doing.

Packrat
07-12-2018, 08:33 AM
Whatís to stop Delta, from cutting rates long enough to run us out of our own market the same way Middle Eastern Airlines (Emirates, Etihad) are doing to Delta? Theyíve already started putting pressure on our throat by pressuring code share partners to cut ties.

Hate to break this to you, but its already happening. Just had a friend who got a ticket from IAD to ANC for $400. Interesting price when you consider the Delta price from EWR to IAD is more expensive.

Take a stroll through the B concourse the next time you're in ANC when the Delta jets are at the terminal. Packed.

FAI is the same way at gate 3 for the redeye. Delta is coming hard for Alaska business and the local loyalty doesn't appear to be holding, especially if the travelers are going anywhere other than the West Coast.

Just reporting my observations.

Packrat
07-12-2018, 08:37 AM
So a legal job action after going through a 30-day cooling off period need not be a full blown strike. What if we said we would keep operations normal in Alaska, but we wouldnít fly south or east of Seattle? The company would still be crippled, but they wouldnít be able to show pictures of empty shelves in Bethel to pressure the politicians to act.

Because that would be flying struck work and all the ANC pilots would become scabs. The only legal way to have a "partial" strike is to use CHAOS. But working one half of the system isn't a strike.

ShyGuy
07-12-2018, 09:03 AM
So the nativeís moral of the story sounds like we canít strike so letís just roll over? Somebody already said it before several months ago. We would have already had a TPA sooner and a JCBA sooner if the pilot group... Iíll leave it at that, but you know where thatís going.


One thing I think both sides can agree on is that something has to give way soon. Delta is relentless in SEA and apparently Alaska itself, United in SFO, all 3 big ones in LAX, and soon to be SWA in Hawaii which represents 24% of AS capacity. It just doesnít look good. Weíre still just a west coast regional pulling out of mid-markets and going for more up/down flying. The reality is the big 4 can take you anywhere on their own metal plus codeshares. AS can get you mostly from 5 states as the overwhelming majority of their operation. Hunkering down now but for how long can that last?

AS for 84 years isnít the same capability as AS of 2018. The market dynamics are entirely different now with the big 4 controlling 84% market share and their hometown of SEA and ANC being brutally attacked.

ASpilot0936
07-12-2018, 09:29 AM
I donít know what to say except that you are completely wrong. The truth is what I and others have stated. We have seen millions of pounds of back logged freight on the ramp simply because the 400 combi was late coming on line or the freighter was broke hard. Thatís truth. Ravn, big and little Ace, Lyndon and all the others will certainly do all they can to provide lift and make money, but they can not handle the volume of freight AND passengers. Do you think that Princess Lisa will let the cries of the tribal leaders fall on deaf ears when they tell her that the kids are outta soda pop in BET, OME, OTZ, and BRW? Donít think she will mind when the pipeline gets shut down due to lack of slopers ? How bout we shut down the largest zinc mine in the world for a week or two? No problem right? Believe what you want but Iíll stick to reality. Just because you donít like the truth does not mean that itís not the truth.


The truth is that yes, service will be reduced, but will NOT be completely shut down. That's what the nepotistic crony can bank on. I'll bet you root for mgmt. too.

ASpilot0936
07-12-2018, 09:31 AM
True, you're not the only game in town. But with the amount of freight that the listed carriers (you forgot Everts Air Cargo!) have to move on their own, losing Alaska freighter/belly freight creates and overwhelming backlog that the named carriers can't make up.

Perhaps you should limit your commentary to passenger ops because you obviously know zero about what the freight haulers in Alaska are doing.


And you can stick to SEA bub becasue you have no idea at the amount of freight we've given to NAC over the years when we only had 709 flying up here. And yet they seem to do just fine. They'll just bring one of their 767s up if they have to.



They'll all step up for the additional revenue as freight is gold up here.....

Mudhen200
07-12-2018, 10:00 AM
The truth is that yes, service will be reduced, but will NOT be completely shut down. That's what the nepotistic crony can bank on. I'll bet you root for mgmt. too.

Good grief...is that all you got? Classic example of what not to do. When you canít even begin to defend your position when faced with facts and reality, you default to name calling. Although, I gotta admit, you choosing nepotism and management crony as your pet peeves is interesting.

I can assure you, I am neither. Iíve probably got more hours of volunteer time in ALPA than you have flight time.

For the record, Iím not saying all is lost and that there is no hope for a better contract. I am simply saying that there will never be a strike at Alaska Airlines. We will have to use other means to achieve our goals, but a strike is off the table.

av8or
07-12-2018, 11:28 AM
Good grief...is that all you got? Classic example of what not to do. When you canít even begin to defend your position when faced with facts and reality, you default to name calling. Although, I gotta admit, you choosing nepotism and management crony as your pet peeves is interesting.

I can assure you, I am neither. Iíve probably got more hours of volunteer time in ALPA than you have flight time.

For the record, Iím not saying all is lost and that there is no hope for a better contract. I am simply saying that there will never be a strike at Alaska Airlines. We will have to use other means to achieve our goals, but a strike is off the table.

So, of course itís often hard to tell ones pedigree and actual knowledge on here, but.... given that Alaska has a bunch of pilots who have been recently hired and acquired, I think we prob should get this issue ironed out first.

The philosophy... the ACTUAL, LEGAL philosophy of our bargaining position needs to be clearly understoood and privately communicated by our union attorney, or reps, or whatever. We need to know what our ACTUAL weapons are if we have any.

This has been incredibly enlightening. Not encouraging, but enlightening. We all know in any group youíre gonna have some sellouts (not pointing fingers itís just true), but if half the pilot group thinks we have all the traditional legal tools for negotiation and the other half thinks we are just negotiating for managements charity, weíre screwed before we even start.

Of course, if OZTeagle is correct, itíll all be a moot point soon, but still...

flysnoopy76
07-12-2018, 01:02 PM
Seems like there are many people who feel another merger/acquisition/buyout is a given. Iím curious as to what it is that makes Alaska an attractive target to one of the major airlines. It seems like they could continue applying competitive pressure and just wait for Alaska to fail. As an Alaska employee I am definitely hoping for the best here but I guess I just donít see what the big airlines gain that they donít have already.

ASpilot0936
07-12-2018, 01:15 PM
I just donít see what the big airlines gain that they donít have already.


Domination of KSEA, that's what they get. My money's on Delta buying/merging with us.

ASpilot0936
07-12-2018, 01:20 PM
I can assure you, I am neither. Iíve probably got more hours of volunteer time in ALPA than you have flight time.




I hope so, becasue that means you're senior. And as soon as you senior pukes who don't give a $hit about anybody below you retire, the rest of us who give a damn about our livelihood can get to the business of getting a better contract using the all tools available to us including a strike, which can happen if we grow enough balls & apply enough pressure.

flysnoopy76
07-12-2018, 01:27 PM
Domination of KSEA, that's what they get. My money's on Delta buying/merging with us.

True enough, but for that to be approved it would seem they would need to divest a large number of gates etc.

rickair7777
07-12-2018, 02:17 PM
Seems like there are many people who feel another merger/acquisition/buyout is a given. Iím curious as to what it is that makes Alaska an attractive target to one of the major airlines. It seems like they could continue applying competitive pressure and just wait for Alaska to fail. As an Alaska employee I am definitely hoping for the best here but I guess I just donít see what the big airlines gain that they donít have already.

A failure might not allow any given airline to pick up the specific pieces they may want... gates, jets, and maybe pilots these days. An accusation is a far more predictable way to achieve specific growth. And faster than organic growth, which depends on the availability of slots, gates, and planes. Also a failure is unlikely... far more likely that someone else would do the accusation and get the toys you wanted.

Flynndawg
07-12-2018, 02:43 PM
Failure of what? SEA? Lol. Ask United and Southwest how that worked out for them. I get its in vogue to trash all things Alaska but it wonít happen. And as far as Delta in the state of Alaska, thats laughable as well. Takes them two hours to turn a plane in Fairbanks during the summer.

av8or
07-12-2018, 02:51 PM
A failure might not allow any given airline to pick up the specific pieces they may want... gates, jets, and maybe pilots these days. An accusation is a far more predictable way to achieve specific growth. And faster than organic growth, which depends on the availability of slots, gates, and planes. Also a failure is unlikely... far more likely that someone else would do the accusation and get the toys you wanted.

Agreed. It can take quite a while for an airline to die down to the point where you can get them for a bargain price, at which point what you wanted may have already been sold or given up. KSEA, the Alaska market, good equipment, ETOPS trained, an ALPA pilot group with a great reputation for safety and skills, loyal customer base, etc.....we are attractive. Itís just whether or not someone would/could pony up the dough. But even then, lots of ways to structure a deal.

waterboy
07-12-2018, 04:01 PM
Domination of KSEA, that's what they get. My money's on Delta buying/merging with us.

You think the DOJ will sign off on the 2 dominant airlines in Seattle (and maybe ANC and FAI according to a previous post) Getting together? I donít see it happening. I donít see any merger/acquisition of AS by any of the big 4 happening. Only one that I could see happening is us with JetBlue. But who knows. I think the rumors of us getting bought is just us hope. Hope that itíll get better here. And we HOPE another merger is the answer.

Packrat
07-12-2018, 05:35 PM
And you can stick to SEA bub becasue you have no idea at the amount of freight we've given to NAC over the years when we only had 709 flying up here. And yet they seem to do just fine. They'll just bring one of their 767s up if they have to.



They'll all step up for the additional revenue as freight is gold up here.....

If you only knew who you were talking too. But then, ignorance is bliss.

Packrat
07-12-2018, 05:40 PM
Seems like there are many people who feel another merger/acquisition/buyout is a given. Iím curious as to what it is that makes Alaska an attractive target to one of the major airlines.

"Someone" has been about to buy Alaska for at least the 28 years I've been around the Company. Since 1987, the only buyers have been Alaska themselves...first Jet America and now Virgin America.

No matter how much you may want it, the Anglers aren't going to sell the goose that's laying the golden eggs. For them, at least.

Packrat
07-12-2018, 05:43 PM
...including a strike, which can happen if we grow enough balls & apply enough pressure.

IF you actually did get to self-help D.C. would toss a PEB on you so fast it would make your head spin.

Let's see: You know nothing about State of Alaska cargo. (Strike One)

You know nothing about PEBs. (Strike Two)

You know nothing about the history of contract negotiations between ALPA and Angle Lake. (Strike Three)

You're out.

Speed Pilot
07-12-2018, 05:47 PM
A PEB only delays the strike by an additional 30 days. So 30 days cooling off plus 30 days PEB. Worth the wait if we can get it.

Max Thrust
07-12-2018, 08:24 PM
No matter how much you may want it, the Anglers aren't going to sell the goose that's laying the golden eggs. For them, at least.

All public companies are for sale

ASpilot0936
07-12-2018, 09:27 PM
IF you actually did get to self-help D.C. would toss a PEB on you so fast it would make your head spin.

Let's see: You know nothing about State of Alaska cargo. (Strike One)

You know nothing about PEBs. (Strike Two)

You know nothing about the history of contract negotiations between ALPA and Angle Lake. (Strike Three)

You're out.


Know who I'm talking to? I don't do well with threats. I hope you're higher up ALPA/MEC. If so, I'd say grow a pair of balls, stand up to brad & ben, start actually representing us & stop folding on things as simple as a lanyard. Do these things if you think you're going to get any unity out of this group. The majority will agree with me and if you don't think so, then you're out of touch with this pilot group.



As far as ALPA history regarding negotiations with Angle Lake, I know all I need to know. ALPA is at least 0 for 2 so far (Kasher & last year, let me know if I left out anything)..... Change is needed.

ZINTKAZ
07-12-2018, 09:42 PM
I hope so, becasue that means you're senior. And as soon as you senior pukes who don't give a $hit about anybody below you retire..........


Nice to lump all the senior guys in one category and how they think. History seems to be correct that some guys like you spew this volatile name calling and angst usually become the quintessential ďI got mineĒ once you become senior. Usually...........
Unity is what we need in this workforce and it is seriously lacking in the leadership of our union. Once everybody stops doing the ďdiving catchĒ to make up for crappy operation practices. Management wonít give a sh&t.

ASpilot0936
07-12-2018, 10:05 PM
Nice to lump all the senior guys in one category and how they think. History seems to be correct that some guys like you spew this volatile name calling and angst usually become the quintessential ďI got mineĒ once you become senior. Usually...........
Unity is what we need in this workforce and it is seriously lacking in the leadership of our union. Once everybody stops doing the ďdiving catchĒ to make up for crappy operation practices. Management wonít give a sh&t.


I'll give you that. I retract my previous statement & I'll restate......


And as soon as you VSA/premium pickup pukes who don't give a $hit about anybody below you retire, the rest of us who give a damn about our livelihood can get to the business of getting a better contract using the all tools available to us including a strike, which can happen if we grow enough balls & apply enough pressure.

KnockKnock
07-13-2018, 06:42 AM
"Someone" has been about to buy Alaska for at least the 28 years I've been around the Company. Since 1987, the only buyers have been Alaska themselves...first Jet America and now Virgin America.

No matter how much you may want it, the Anglers aren't going to sell the goose that's laying the golden eggs. For them, at least.
Packrat, do you currently work for AS?

Packrat
07-13-2018, 08:55 AM
Packrat, do you currently work for AS?

Nope. Retired after 24 years. However, I do have a bit more insight into the Alaska freight market than some folks here.

KnockKnock
07-13-2018, 09:03 AM
Nope. Retired after 24 years. However, I do have a bit more insight into the Alaska freight market than some folks here.
Oh, I’m not saying you don’t. There just seems to be confusion about your current position with the company. Thanks for clarifying.

Fleet Warp
07-13-2018, 10:55 AM
Hate to break this to you, but its already happening. Just had a friend who got a ticket from IAD to ANC for $400. Interesting price when you consider the Delta price from EWR to IAD is more expensive.

Take a stroll through the B concourse the next time you're in ANC when the Delta jets are at the terminal. Packed.

FAI is the same way at gate 3 for the redeye. Delta is coming hard for Alaska business and the local loyalty doesn't appear to be holding, especially if the travelers are going anywhere other than the West Coast.

Just reporting my observations.

This. Delta is the best run airline in the country right now. Sure everything is cyclic, but even if they stopped trying, their momentum will carry them through the next decade. I did just walk through the terminal and Delta has the usual appeal it's developed everywhere.
Clean, organized and happy looking gates and full flights.

You think the DOJ will sign off on the 2 dominant airlines in Seattle (and maybe ANC and FAI according to a previous post) Getting together? I donít see it happening. I donít see any merger/acquisition of AS by any of the big 4 happening. Only one that I could see happening is us with JetBlue. But who knows. I think the rumors of us getting bought is just us hope. Hope that itíll get better here. And we HOPE another merger is the answer.

Delta would happily shed gates to make the DOJ happy. Afterall, C concourse is rats nest, with all the cramming of AG, and Delta learned to make things tidy. Plus American and United operate a fair few flights out of SEA, so I wouldn't worry about anti-trust.

I'm an outsider but I like AS and think they have a good product and loyal customers. Your employees are great too, but I also think they are being run likes it 1975.

Mudhen200
07-13-2018, 11:05 AM
I hope so, becasue that means you're senior. And as soon as you senior pukes who don't give a $hit about anybody below you retire, the rest of us who give a damn about our livelihood can get to the business of getting a better contract using the all tools available to us including a strike, which can happen if we grow enough balls & apply enough pressure.

Son - I donít even know where to start or what to say. You are a lost cause. Name calling just makes you look silly. Nothing I have said should make you think that I donít care about anyone junior to me or that I donít care about our profession . I have spent years volunteering in ALPA. How many years of your time have you given to ALPA?
You are one of those tuff guys who likes to thump your chest and talk about how bad stuff is and how itís always the fault of some senior guy or some weak MEC. Your kind never has an actual solution or even a logical rational thought. Nor will you step up, volunteer and work for the betterment of the contract. Just a lot of hot air.
You seem to be hung up on the idea that a strike will cure all that ails you. You see it as some holy grail that will achieve total victory and the best contract, not to mention a super cool battle star on your ALPA pin!
When seasoned pilots explain to you the legitimate, logical, and real reasons on why a strike can not happen at Alaska Airlines, you default to unprofessional silliness.
I donít care if you believe me. I donít care if you think poorly of me because Iím senior to you. I donít care if you think your big balls leading the charge on a strike is all that is needed to improve our contact. I do know that I canít count on you because you have proven yourself to be rather irrational. I hope that you will mature over the course of your career and become someone that can be counted on.
I use to be a hot head in my youth as well. Thankfully I started to listen and learn. I volunteered, I got engaged, I helped make a difference.
What are you going to do? Unfortunately, you will probably just swear some more, throw out a few more insults, and try to convince yourself that somehow guys like me are the problem.
Meanwhile, the truth remains. There will never be a strike allowed at Alaska Airlines as long as we have the responsibility of providing service in the great state of Alaska.

symbian simian
07-13-2018, 11:20 AM
Son - I donít even know where to start or what to say. You are a lost cause. Name calling just makes you look silly. Nothing I have said should make you think that I donít care about anyone junior to me or that I donít care about our profession . I have spent years volunteering in ALPA. How many years of your time have you given to ALPA?
You are one of those tuff guys who likes to thump your chest and talk about how bad stuff is and how itís always the fault of some senior guy or some weak MEC. Your kind never has an actual solution or even a logical rational thought. Nor will you step up, volunteer and work for the betterment of the contract. Just a lot of hot air.
You seem to be hung up on the idea that a strike will cure all that ails you. You see it as some holy grail that will achieve total victory and the best contract, not to mention a super cool battle star on your ALPA pin!
When seasoned pilots explain to you the legitimate, logical, and real reasons on why a strike can not happen at Alaska Airlines, you default to unprofessional silliness.
I donít care if you believe me. I donít care if you think poorly of me because Iím senior to you. I donít care if you think your big balls leading the charge on a strike is all that is needed to improve our contact. I do know that I canít count on you because you have proven yourself to be rather irrational. I hope that you will mature over the course of your career and become someone that can be counted on.
I use to be a hot head in my youth as well. Thankfully I started to listen and learn. I volunteered, I got engaged, I helped make a difference.
What are you going to do? Unfortunately, you will probably just swear some more, throw out a few more insults, and try to convince yourself that somehow guys like me are the problem.
Meanwhile, the truth remains. There will never be a strike allowed at Alaska Airlines as long as we have the responsibility of providing service in the great state of Alaska.

Accepting that as fact guarantees you will NEVER have a decent contract. I honestly think your years of volunteering for the union would have been better spend fishing, because with that attitude you end up with a contract that allows for 8 calendar days off minimum on reserve.

AltoCumulus
07-13-2018, 12:15 PM
Son - I donít even know where to start or what to say. You are a lost cause. Name calling just makes you look silly. Nothing I have said should make you think that I donít care about anyone junior to me or that I donít care about our profession . I have spent years volunteering in ALPA. How many years of your time have you given to ALPA?
You are one of those tuff guys who likes to thump your chest and talk about how bad stuff is and how itís always the fault of some senior guy or some weak MEC. Your kind never has an actual solution or even a logical rational thought. Nor will you step up, volunteer and work for the betterment of the contract. Just a lot of hot air.
You seem to be hung up on the idea that a strike will cure all that ails you. You see it as some holy grail that will achieve total victory and the best contract, not to mention a super cool battle star on your ALPA pin!
When seasoned pilots explain to you the legitimate, logical, and real reasons on why a strike can not happen at Alaska Airlines, you default to unprofessional silliness.
I donít care if you believe me. I donít care if you think poorly of me because Iím senior to you. I donít care if you think your big balls leading the charge on a strike is all that is needed to improve our contact. I do know that I canít count on you because you have proven yourself to be rather irrational. I hope that you will mature over the course of your career and become someone that can be counted on.
I use to be a hot head in my youth as well. Thankfully I started to listen and learn. I volunteered, I got engaged, I helped make a difference.
What are you going to do? Unfortunately, you will probably just swear some more, throw out a few more insults, and try to convince yourself that somehow guys like me are the problem.
Meanwhile, the truth remains. There will never be a strike allowed at Alaska Airlines as long as we have the responsibility of providing service in the great state of Alaska.

I know much what you are saying is a rebuke to ASPilot, and for that I will cut you some slack.

However, just as the group-splitters (damn senior guys! Etc.) are damaging to the whole process, the furtherance of the idea that we are in a hopeless situation with the RLA is just as damaging.

ďWe will never be released to self-help because of...(fill in your reason) Ē if you actually read the law and the accompanying court cases, you will see that the RLAís power in this regard is not limitless. First off, if we did get to a PEB then it is only 30 days, at which point we could resort to self-help.

Getting an impasse declared is also a difficult hurdle I will grant you but still not a limitless one. Itís not a bright line but it is thought to be somewhere around the 3 year mark that you could reasonably expect to go into a federal court and have an impasse declared for you by the court since there is a good chance that a court would find the RLA to not be acting in compliance with the law once we are talking about 3+ year time frames.

So no it is not impossible. If it were as impossible as you say then the logical thing to do would be to vote ALPA out and just keep the 2% a year since that means we have zero leverage.

The part about a strike that a lot of people are missing though, is that it is not the Strike itself that gets the results, it is the WILLINGNESS to strike that does.

Like nuclear missiles. If your enemies believe for a second that you would not be willing to use them when provoked...you would be toast - literally.

My other point is that Joe Flying-Public does not know the intricucies of the RLA, all they might know is that there is labor trouble at Alaska, better buy a ticket on Delta to prevent our vacation being ruined next summer. This fact will get you to a deal sooner if handled properly then would otherwise happen.

Anyway, that is why I actively advocate that strike preparations begin now. We need large piles of cash in reserves as a union, pilots in financial situations that are on board and able to walk off the job for three months in 2022 (2020+2-3 years) without breaking a sweat.

Mutually Assured Destruction.

Nobody wants to, but we have to be willing to.

Packrat
07-13-2018, 03:18 PM
The part about a strike that a lot of people are missing though, is that it is not the Strike itself that gets the results, it is the WILLINGNESS to strike that does.

The flaw in your reasoning is that we've had strike votes in the past with 95% voting for a strike.

How much good has it done?

WutFace
07-13-2018, 03:32 PM
The flaw in your reasoning is that we've had strike votes in the past with 95% voting for a strike.

How much good has it done?

I'm absolutely baffled by Alaska pilots' love for looking to the past to predict the future. "Don't forget how bad it was" is something that AS management loves to repeat, and it has worked brilliantly.

The landscape in the airline industry in the last 20, even the last 10, years has changed dramatically. Even your own airline has changed dramatically. So all of these truths that you think are irrevocable are anything but.

Packrat
07-13-2018, 04:37 PM
Just as it amazes me that pilots with ZERO experience dealing with AS management think they're going to come in and change Angle Lake's playbook.

Good luck with that.

I do hope you're successful, though. Just remember...A leopard can't change his spots.

Klsytakesit
07-13-2018, 06:56 PM
Alaska as a state is half the economic engine it was 15 years ago. Alaska the airline is not even close to the importance that it was 15 years ago. Just a convenient excuse for the paint-job-pride guys and gals to hide behind. Grateful that we just gained 1000 pilots that have no paint-job-pride.
Alaska the airline is a shell of half truths, dirty deals and false promises. The sooner we all stop caring about crap like brand and image the better off we are. A former CEO told us, ďI wonít give you anything that you dont make me give youĒ. His attitude still forms the core values of this airline. High time we take that guys advice.

All Bizniz
07-13-2018, 07:53 PM
A former CEO told us, ďI wonít give you anything that you don't make me give youĒ.
^^^^^^
This!!!
That is generally the reality of corporate America..

ShyGuy
07-13-2018, 10:51 PM
Which CEO would that be? Would it be someone who sounds like this song?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=imfUAXcdkH8

ASpilot0936
07-14-2018, 01:22 AM
Just as it amazes me that pilots with ZERO experience dealing with AS management think they're going to come in and change Angle Lake's playbook.

Good luck with that.

I do hope you're successful, though. Just remember...A leopard can't change his spots.

That’s your problem, you play by their rules. ALPA can’t seem to come up with its own playbook and make mgmt play by it’s rules for once.

The self defeatist attitude of the senior pilot is the lost cause here now. I hope that the new virgin blood coming in (who dont have a love affair with angle lake while trying to get a second floor job) outnumber everyone who thinks that a strike is impossible. Anybody at the MEC who thinks that a strike will never happen should be tossed on their a$$ right now. What am I paying for? Really? If no strike will be allowed then why do I need a union in the first place? I’d rather keep my 2%

Packrat
07-14-2018, 05:59 AM
A former CEO told us, ďI wonít give you anything that you dont make me give youĒ. His attitude still forms the core values of this airline. High time we take that guys advice.

Not that they don't think this way, but that's a Frank Lorenzo quote. No Alaska CEO has ever said this to either the rank and file OR the Union.

cornbeef007
07-14-2018, 08:22 AM
Just as it amazes me that pilots with ZERO experience dealing with AS management think they're going to come in and change Angle Lake's playbook.

Good luck with that.

I do hope you're successful, though. Just remember...A leopard can't change his spots.

Every management team is the same. Why is it that Alaska is so far behind United/American and Delta?

You are retired, just stop conveying the resignation and apathy. Guess what....the airlines above are just as likely to get released as well.

Delta produced a garbage contract in 2015 and we sent it back. Do you think Delta management gave us the contract we have now out of the goodness of their heart? They told us there was no more money on the table.
That was false.

The senior folks with the apathy need to display a little self respect. You guys are the reason Alaska pilots arenít worth what Delta/American or United are. Itís not the Angle lake management team.

conquestdz
07-14-2018, 11:26 AM
Every management team is the same. Why is it that Alaska is so far behind United/American and Delta?

You are retired, just stop conveying the resignation and apathy. Guess what....the airlines above are just as likely to get released as well.

Delta produced a garbage contract in 2015 and we sent it back. Do you think Delta management gave us the contract we have now out of the goodness of their heart? They told us there was no more money on the table.
That was false.

The senior folks with the apathy need to display a little self respect. You guys are the reason Alaska pilots arenít worth what Delta/American or United are. Itís not the Angle lake management team.

I remember the Delta ALPA sales job that was going on during 2015. I remember the video that was going around of the rep at a road show screaming himself hoarse about how PRB was the only possible outcome of a rejected contract. There was a lot of time value of money talk going on then as well. The Delta pilots saw through the crap and resoundingly rejected the subpar contract, and subpar union representation while they were at it. The results were more than worth the wait and effort.

I see a lot of the same tone on this thread now as well. If we can overwhelmingly reject the sales job like Delta pilots did, avoid arbitration like the plague, and all pull the same direction we will get similar results.

cornbeef007
07-14-2018, 12:50 PM
I remember the Delta ALPA sales job that was going on during 2015. I remember the video that was going around of the rep at a road show screaming himself hoarse about how PRB was the only possible outcome of a rejected contract. There was a lot of time value of money talk going on then as well. The Delta pilots saw through the crap and resoundingly rejected the subpar contract, and subpar union representation while they were at it. The results were more than worth the wait and effort.

I see a lot of the same tone on this thread now as well. If we can overwhelmingly reject the sales job like Delta pilots did, avoid arbitration like the plague, and all pull the same direction we will get similar results.

Exactly....what tipped the scales was the merger with Northwest and an influx of new pilots. Could the initial Tentative Agreement have passed without those two demographic changes? I donít know for sure but Iím going to say yes.

You guys are in the exact same situation. The key is to convince the new guys that the senior guys are full of garbage, when they spout off about the management tactics. I saw this during the Delta negotiations and honestly itís not that the senior guys are afraid of management. They just have theirs and want the money now.

All airline management is the same....good things come to those who wait.

Packrat
07-14-2018, 03:53 PM
Delta and Alaska...apples and oranges.

cornbeef007
07-14-2018, 04:30 PM
Delta and Alaska...apples and oranges.

That can be said for virtually any two airlines.

ShyGuy
07-14-2018, 06:36 PM
Delta and Alaska...apples and oranges.

So was Alaska and Virgin. But I agree that Delta and Alaska probably won’t be a combination in the future.

Packrat
07-15-2018, 07:23 AM
So was Alaska and Virgin. But I agree that Delta and Alaska probably wonít be a combination in the future.

I was referring to management - Union relationships in contract negotiations.

All Bizniz
07-15-2018, 08:04 AM
Delta and Alaska...apples and oranges.
So, in your opinion, what is so different about the Alaska Management-Union relationship compared to others like Delta?

What is the "secret sauce" that apparently allows them to best us at every turn?

I'm curious to understand this....

Costanza
07-15-2018, 12:07 PM
The real problem that how will people be motivated by 2020 for the contract. Everyone has been winning so much already they are getting tired of winning.

Klsytakesit
07-15-2018, 12:28 PM
So, in your opinion, what is so different about the Alaska Management-Union relationship compared to others like Delta?

What is the "secret sauce" that apparently allows them to best us at every turn?

I'm curious to understand this....
They have always hired 67% ďSecret SauceĒ....and being a very small west coast regional they have had no trouble meeting that goal....Lets hope that they critically misjudged the effect 1000 pilots devoid of ďsauceĒ when it comes to voting in 2023

SmoothLanderJ
07-15-2018, 02:34 PM
They have always hired 67% ďSecret SauceĒ....and being a very small west coast regional they have had no trouble meeting that goal....Lets hope that they critically misjudged the effect 1000 pilots devoid of ďsauceĒ when it comes to voting in 2023

100% agree..