Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : 1 2 [3]

View Full Version : The TA is finally here


queue
07-06-2018, 10:03 AM
Past 8years I havenít seen them manipulate the manuals in a way to hurt the pilot. This company puts food on my familyís table so yes I give them credit. Youíre probably just some regional troll that doesnít work at JB so good luck sucking at life in your bunker.


You are saying that out of ignorance. I'm not insulting you, it's just that you literally are not aware of a lot of things. Each issue is handled with secrecy so the average pilot who goes to work and isn't in the loop never finds out. Let me assure you that they constantly throw the book at people and often "interpret" their policies in creative ways. There's plenty of people who are on progressive guidance, been suspended for months, or flat out fired. It happens... it happens a lot. An employer who puts food on your table is not a standard by which they can be defined as a "good employer". Ask around... you will hear stories. I know that 99% of the stories are true. (Please don't post them here for the protection of your fellow pilots) Disclosure: I'm not in any trouble with BJ nor have I ever been.


I read somewhere that you might be a vet? If so, you may wish to listen to some of these regional guys - particularly their struggles with management. I'm a vet too... and I was pretty naive at first. However, I've come to learn that they know a lot about labor disputes and the things management will do.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


queue
07-06-2018, 10:08 AM
Haha been here 8yrs and still love reading crap like this. Stay in your bunker until your ready to pull your head out of the sand! This is better than our pea and easily market rate! This also isnít Delta and if you want them so bad, go work there. Company wet dream? Sure! But you guys cry about selling pto and doing that is working the exact same weeks as if you work over vacation. Ignorance is bliss and your very naive!


It sounds like you are one of the reasons BJ pilots are so defeated. You talk just like someone who has been conquered. I see you're using the "we're not X airline, so go work for them" argument. Did it occur to you that some people actually want to improve where they currently work at?



Your lack of knowledge of how corporations and business works is troubling because you probably have done significant damage to the cause of making BJ pilots respectable. Do you realize that you have effectively internalized a union-buster's talking points and also the very same things BJ managers say? These people are not on your side - don't do their jobs for them. If they could pay you $5/hr to work 7 days/week, they would! If the current disastrous state of affairs at BJ work for you, great! But don't stop trying to improve things. There is quite a ways to go to make this profession respectable again and your apologist, low-rent, regional mentality isn't helping.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 10:15 AM
I agree, don’t pick up and don’t help now. It makes me disappointed seeing RSAs picked up during our current dispute and we are in dispute until the 27th.. After the TA, if it passes, are we still in a dispute? Only the disgruntled who are mad but NO I don’t think we’d be in dispute anymore. So i don’t understand the problem picking up RSA or flying over vacation when negotiations are done!


You are always in a dispute. TA 1.0 is an unacceptable compromise and TA 2.0 will still be just a compromise. You will always have to be fighting for pay raises, benefits, and better work rules. What's going to happen in a year or two when we are dead last again in pay? Will you keep defending the status quo? If you don't constantly fight, you will lose the FUTURE ability to fight. You are sabotaging your future. BJ is cutting a lot of corners by understaffing the airline - it's typical bad manager 101 stuff. You jump higher for a few measly dollars while shooting yourself in the face. You have to stop enabling bad behavior from your employer. Even with a contract in place, you should consider the ramifications of doing things for additional pay. What precedent is it setting? How will that precedent hurt us in the future? Remember when Spirit ALPA got in trouble because the company accused them of telling people not to pick up RSAs? Well, they were able to make a pseudo-mathematical argument that a corrupt judge bought off on because they showed historic RSA rates vs. current. So yes.. you're always in a labor dispute.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


DRMic
07-06-2018, 10:22 AM
Iím a 6yr vet and 8 year regional guy. If weíre at the regionals, Iíd likely vote no. Since I been at JB, I havenít seen anything manipulative like I saw at regionals. Like I told Bunker, I just signed up on this site to throw some Yays cuz all i read is a lot of negative. Is this TA perfect no but I honestly believe it is market rate. Is it worded like my contract at my regional which was too confusing to read because it was too lawyer up no but I would like to give this a chance. If they manipulate it, then (while governed by a contract) we stand in unity and demand nothing less during follow up negotiations. You are saying that out of ignorance. I'm not insulting you, it's just that you literally are not aware of a lot of things. Each issue is handled with secrecy so the average pilot who goes to work and isn't in the loop never finds out. Let me assure you that they constantly throw the book at people and often "interpret" their policies in creative ways. There's plenty of people who are on progressive guidance, been suspended for months, or flat out fired. It happens... it happens a lot. An employer who puts food on your table is not a standard by which they can be defined as a "good employer". Ask around... you will hear stories. I know that 99% of the stories are true. (Please don't post them here for the protection of your fellow pilots) Disclosure: I'm not in any trouble with BJ nor have I ever been.


I read somewhere that you might be a vet? If so, you may wish to listen to some of these regional guys - particularly their struggles with management. I'm a vet too... and I was pretty naive at first. However, I've come to learn that they know a lot about labor disputes and the things management will do.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

DRMic
07-06-2018, 10:27 AM
You mean youíre always in a dispute. I am not. TA damn nice is very good and worthy of yes. I will not vote No due to paranoia. JB became one of the biggest airlines in 2 decades as compared to a century. Thatís business 101, not the small handful that will never be happy.

You are always in a dispute. TA 1.0 is an unacceptable compromise and TA 2.0 will still be just a compromise. You will always have to be fighting for pay raises, benefits, and better work rules. What's going to happen in a year or two when we are dead last again in pay? Will you keep defending the status quo? If you don't constantly fight, you will lose the FUTURE ability to fight. You are sabotaging your future. BJ is cutting a lot of corners by understaffing the airline - it's typical bad manager 101 stuff. You jump higher for a few measly dollars while shooting yourself in the face. You have to stop enabling bad behavior from your employer. Even with a contract in place, you should consider the ramifications of doing things for additional pay. What precedent is it setting? How will that precedent hurt us in the future? Remember when Spirit ALPA got in trouble because the company accused them of telling people not to pick up RSAs? Well, they were able to make a pseudo-mathematical argument that a corrupt judge bought off on because they showed historic RSA rates vs. current. So yes.. you're always in a labor dispute.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 10:35 AM
Iím a 6yr vet and 8 year regional guy. If weíre at the regionals, Iíd likely vote no. Since I been at JB, I havenít seen anything manipulative like I saw at regionals. Like I told Bunker, I just signed up on this site to throw some Yays cuz all i read is a lot of negative. Is this TA perfect no but I honestly believe it is market rate. Is it worded like my contract at my regional which was too confusing to read because it was too lawyer up no but I would like to give this a chance. If they manipulate it, then (while governed by a contract) we stand in unity and demand nothing less during follow up negotiations.


How do you find this TA to be confusing? It's not even written with any legalese at all... anyone with a basic college degree should have no difficulty parsing out and studying every technical fault of the contract. Lots of people on here have identified countless examples. There's NO EXCUSE to let the TA slip by as is.... something worth doing is worth doing right.



And, how is it market rate? It's lower than every single one of your peers? Market rate would be at least the average rate of your peers. At the end of the day, you're still receiving far, far less than your peers. And that's pay alone...



Also, if they do manipulate it (and they will, because they always have), there is no such thing as standing in unity at that point. It will be handled quietly through grievances. 95% of the pilot group will be in absolute ignorant bliss, as you seem to be about the current numbers of people getting screwed over. Don't limit your knowledge to just pilots either... the FA's have *countless* examples of just how evil a company can be... I suppose you didn't hear about how middle managers were paying customers to rat out FAs on surveys? I suppose you never heard of 3A?



There is no guarantee that in 4 yrs the market will be where it is now. This is the best time in history to negotiate a contract. If you can't get a decent contract now, you may never. E.g. SWA made a huge business victory when they hedged jet fuel at the price they did, which helped them tremendously for years to come. Had they not, they probably wouldn't have the success they have now. Likewise, we are at a point where we get come really close to getting a decent contract but we're ****ing it away by marrying the first girl who talks to us. We really need to vote down TA 1.0 and fix all the gross mistakes to get a decent TA 2.0.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

DRMic
07-06-2018, 10:36 AM
Maybe youíll join bunker n I for that beer among vets! Nuff company crap! Might be good, might be bad. Iím hoping for the best! Cheers man

Iím a 6yr vet and 8 year regional guy. If weíre at the regionals, Iíd likely vote no. Since I been at JB, I havenít seen anything manipulative like I saw at regionals. Like I told Bunker, I just signed up on this site to throw some Yays cuz all i read is a lot of negative. Is this TA perfect no but I honestly believe it is market rate. Is it worded like my contract at my regional which was too confusing to read because it was too lawyer up no but I would like to give this a chance. If they manipulate it, then (while governed by a contract) we stand in unity and demand nothing less during follow up negotiations.

DRMic
07-06-2018, 10:37 AM
Just read this, i meant our regional TA was like da fu......! This one seems plain English, maybe too plain like you said. I agree on that

How do you find this TA to be confusing? It's not even written with any legalese at all... anyone with a basic college degree should have no difficulty parsing out and studying every technical fault of the contract. Lots of people on here have identified countless examples. There's NO EXCUSE to let the TA slip by as is.... something worth doing is worth doing right.



And, how is it market rate? It's lower than every single one of your peers? Market rate would be at least the average rate of your peers. At the end of the day, you're still receiving far, far less than your peers. And that's pay alone...



Also, if they do manipulate it (and they will, because they always have), there is no such thing as standing in unity at that point. It will be handled quietly through grievances. 95% of the pilot group will be in absolute ignorant bliss, as you seem to be about the current numbers of people getting screwed over. Don't limit your knowledge to just pilots either... the FA's have *countless* examples of just how evil a company can be... I suppose you didn't hear about how middle managers were paying customers to rat out FAs on surveys? I suppose you never heard of 3A?



There is no guarantee that in 4 yrs the market will be where it is now. This is the best time in history to negotiate a contract. If you can't get a decent contract now, you may never. E.g. SWA made a huge business victory when they hedged jet fuel at the price they did, which helped them tremendously for years to come. Had they not, they probably wouldn't have the success they have now. Likewise, we are at a point where we get come really close to getting a decent contract but we're ****ing it away by marrying the first girl who talks to us. We really need to vote down TA 1.0 and fix all the gross mistakes to get a decent TA 2.0.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 10:39 AM
You mean youíre always in a dispute. I am not. TA damn nice is very good and worthy of yes. I will not vote No due to paranoia. JB became one of the biggest airlines in 2 decades as compared to a century. Thatís business 101, not the small handful that will never be happy.


It's not about being happy or some other emotional rationalization. It's about the sheer numbers (and legal language). The pay is again at the bottom. Your productivity level as a pilot is still the highest in the industry. The benefits are still at the bottom of your peers. The legal language is grossly deficient and dangerous in how open ended it is. These aren't speculations, these are facts.



You're not always in a dispute because you've learned to love your bottom part of the barrel. It's classic Stockholm Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome). You have a mental block saying that you will never be Delta, AA, SWA, UA. Imagine if those airlines' pilots had your attitude?



At what point will you actually want improvement?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

DRMic
07-06-2018, 10:43 AM
Iíll want DL AA or UA when I apply there! Anyway, Iím signing off on company crap! Good luck man!

It's not about being happy or some other emotional rationalization. It's about the sheer numbers (and legal language). The pay is again at the bottom. Your productivity level as a pilot is still the highest in the industry. The benefits are still at the bottom of your peers. The legal language is grossly deficient and dangerous in how open ended it is. These aren't speculations, these are facts.



You're not always in a dispute because you've learned to love your bottom part of the barrel. It's classic Stockholm Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome). You have a mental block saying that you will never be Delta, AA, SWA, UA. Imagine if those airlines' pilots had your attitude?



At what point will you actually want improvement?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 10:47 AM
Just read this, i meant our regional TA was like da fu......! This one seems plain English, maybe too plain like you said. I agree on that


It's not necessarily that it's written at a 9th grade reading level. Believe me, I prefer to be spared legal terms written in Latin.


It's that it is not specific in many ways, allowing them to attach strings. It is also vague meaning that people will get screwed over, BJ will exploit the vagueness, and you're left to file a grievance which may never result in anything. At the end of the day, you're screwed. No one cares more about you than you. Don't think someone at ALPA will jump on the grenade for you. They'll do the best job they can within their limited constraints.



The language is very open ended. Take for example how they establish "positive communication" via JETCRW. They just added a sentence mentioning it which is completely vague in interpretation. In fact, it nullifies the language of having positive *verbal* communication because if they send you things via JETCRW, the mere act of sending it to you may be considered positive comms. They've played this game with many people.

Oh yes, and don't forget the TA legitimizes the Dependability Policy, which has not been improved one iota. In fact, it's WORSE now with the TA because now it's a contractual obligation. Read the language carefully.. it's very explicit in that you must make all these considerations for commuting, but it lets BJ decide *after the fact* what was sufficient or insufficient consideration. For example, if you had 2 commuting reservations made (commuter policy) but you didn't make it, it will go against your Dependability. Even if you follow the policy, it STILL goes against your Dependability. Don't believe me... READ IT. Read the DP in the FOM.... you are always guilty. Instead, the TA should immunize you from the Dependability Policy if you had 2 flights. It still doesn't.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 10:49 AM
Iíll want DL AA or UA when I apply there! Anyway, Iím signing off on company crap! Good luck man!


Well, your words are an inspiration to a book I'm writing about why the profession is where it is. Maybe in 10 yrs you'll wake up after you gain some knowledge. Then you can read your words because the Internet is forever, even if this forum goes away. Then I get to remind you how this was a perfectly predictable and correctable mistake that you chose not to be responsible for.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

DRMic
07-06-2018, 10:56 AM
I read the same posts at my regional too. Voted No. it passed. It was a much much better QOL (at the regional, JB still way better than there) and that contract was pathetic. So maybe in 10yrs youíll be where Iím at now! Seen worse and got better! Hereís hoping!

Well, your words are an inspiration to a book I'm writing about why the profession is where it is. Maybe in 10 yrs you'll wake up after you gain some knowledge. Then you can read your words because the Internet is forever, even if this forum goes away. Then I get to remind you how this was a perfectly predictable and correctable mistake that you chose not to be responsible for.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 11:12 AM
I read the same posts at my regional too. Voted No. it passed. It was a much much better QOL (at the regional, JB still way better than there) and that contract was pathetic. So maybe in 10yrs youíll be where Iím at now! Seen worse and got better! Hereís hoping!


Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the people at your regional made countless mistakes? Maybe voting No was the best thing they ever did, but they probably messed up everything else along the way. I don't hide that I think B6 ALPA has made huge mistakes, which is why TA 1.0 is so substandard. For example, they should have never retreated from the informational picket. They waived the white flag even before we won Hill 659. Also, their expectations were way too low. They caved in calling any improvement "market rate". We're never going to fix things by continuing to make the same predictable mistakes over and over. I'm where you'll be in 20 yrs... I've really studied how things fail and I've learned from them. The problem is that we don't fight - we just agree to any offer we get and then continue on with our boundless complacency and apathy.

We're myopically greedy, but not even good at being greedy. People will keep on trying to milk the system based on some barely incremental contract but in the end, a pilot working 70 hrs at SWA, DL, UA, AA will make considerably more, with far better work rules, than a BJ pilot doing 100 hrs and still not making as much or enjoying better rules. This mentality is the cause of our defeat and we must break the viscous cycle of failure.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
07-06-2018, 05:10 PM
We can't fly over vacation currently. So......Either guys take vacation OR they don't take vacation and sellback.

Guys not taking vacation and selling back slows seniority growth too.

I like the TA....if you want to fly on your vacation, have at it.

I think you can split your Vaca now and fly in the middle. Not sure because I take Vaca and actually travel and FORGET about this place.

Softpayman
07-06-2018, 05:56 PM
I think you can split your Vaca now and fly in the middle. Not sure because I take Vaca and actually travel and FORGET about this place.

Split all you like, you still can't fly on vacation days.

WhistlePig
07-06-2018, 06:42 PM
[B]we must break the viscous cycle of failure[/B

A viscous cycle can be pretty vicious. On that we can agree.

FLY100
07-06-2018, 06:52 PM
I read the same posts at my regional too. Voted No. it passed. It was a much much better QOL (at the regional, JB still way better than there) and that contract was pathetic. So maybe in 10yrs youíll be where Iím at now! Seen worse and got better! Hereís hoping!
I voted "No". There are issues that are not acceptable such as implementation schedule and we need better health insurance just to name a few. While I am eager for improvement, I know it is best to wait and make it count. We will be happier in the long run. In unity, there is strength.

Southerner
07-06-2018, 07:18 PM
I voted "No". There are issues that are not acceptable such as implementation schedule and we need better health insurance just to name a few. While I am eager for improvement, I know it is best to wait and make it count. We will be happier in the long run. In unity, there is strength.

A no vote doesn't affect implementation. It just doesn't. All you'll do is hand the company a giant pile of money and an expanded timeline with no deadlines to get the changes complete (if they start now).

So in your scenario, we get another TA in 18 months, and the company (which has been working all along on the implementation) agrees to a year implementation timeline. A win! Yay, we showed them! They shortened it by 6 months!

Meanwhile in reality the implementation actually got extended by 12 months for a total of 30 months from today.

queue
07-06-2018, 07:36 PM
A viscous cycle can be pretty vicious. On that we can agree.

Back to skool.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-06-2018, 07:37 PM
A no vote doesn't affect implementation. It just doesn't. All you'll do is hand the company a giant pile of money and an expanded timeline with no deadlines to get the changes complete (if they start now).

So in your scenario, we get another TA in 18 months, and the company (which has been working all along on the implementation) agrees to a year implementation timeline. A win! Yay, we showed them! They shortened it by 6 months!

Meanwhile in reality the implementation actually got extended by 12 months for a total of 30 months from today.

Pure speculation and fear mongering.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-07-2018, 12:31 AM
A no vote doesn't affect implementation. It just doesn't. All you'll do is hand the company a giant pile of money and an expanded timeline with no deadlines to get the changes complete (if they start now).

So in your scenario, we get another TA in 18 months, and the company (which has been working all along on the implementation) agrees to a year implementation timeline. A win! Yay, we showed them! They shortened it by 6 months!

Meanwhile in reality the implementation actually got extended by 12 months for a total of 30 months from today.

I think you over estimate how much money this TA actually cost the company. By the same logic we should vote yes to literally ANY TA presented to us, no matter how bad.

CaptCoolHand
07-07-2018, 08:12 AM
I think you over estimate how much money this TA actually cost the company. By the same logic we should vote yes to literally ANY TA presented to us, no matter how bad.

Southerner is right... wish he wore a lanyard...

This TA is going to cost bodies and bodies are $$ add to that the scheduling efficiencies will give you more time off and in turn if you wanna ***** out like you'd have to today you can continue to make more money. Money/Days

Vacation requirments
14hr max days
1700/0100 cut off
Pairing efficiency
RIGS
RSV rules
Bid divisor smoothing and live values.
Scope may "cost nothing" but it's a helova insurance policy when right now if we bought a frontier or whoever we could just send them all our new planes?

The staffing drivers will bump up your seniority. This will force hiring and push us well over 4000pilots in the next 18months.

We know this is going to cost. saying it doesn't is disingenuous. $750million

Southerner
07-07-2018, 08:24 AM
I think you over estimate how much money this TA actually cost the company. By the same logic we should vote yes to literally ANY TA presented to us, no matter how bad.

No. By my logic the implementation timeline shouldn't be the determining factor.

pilotpayne
07-07-2018, 08:52 AM
Southerner is right... wish he wore a lanyard...

This TA is going to cost bodies and bodies are $$ add to that the scheduling efficiencies will give you more time off and in turn if you wanna ***** out like you'd have to today you can continue to make more money. Money/Days

Vacation requirments
14hr max days
1700/0100 cut off
Pairing efficiency
RIGS
RSV rules
Bid divisor smoothing and live values.
Scope may "cost nothing" but it's a helova insurance policy when right now if we bought a frontier or whoever we could just send them all our new planes?

The staffing drivers will bump up your seniority. This will force hiring and push us well over 4000pilots in the next 18months.

We know this is going to cost. saying it doesn't is disingenuous. $750million



Yup. It seems like nobody is paying attention to this stuff.
Spot on.

Bozo the pilot
07-07-2018, 08:54 AM
I think you over estimate how much money this TA actually cost the company. By the same logic we should vote yes to literally ANY TA presented to us, no matter how bad.

No- Southerner described it accurately Pog. You're anger is clouding the issue for you.
Its not Yes on any TA, just this particular one, which provides the protections we need and a vast improvement in QOL.
I realize its not enough for you, so just vote no.
Tty on the 27th man.

queue
07-07-2018, 09:55 AM
No- Southerner described it accurately Pog. You're anger is clouding the issue for you.
Its not Yes on any TA, just this particular one, which provides the protections we need and a vast improvement in QOL.
I realize its not enough for you, so just vote no.
Tty on the 27th man.


Bozo, aren't you the angry hypocrite that can't openly debate people? Why are you so adamant about knowing who is saying what? Will that allow you and your non-lanyard wearing buddies to target the rebels? If you cared about debating the issues at hand, it shouldn't matter whose face is behind it.



What happens exactly when you can't force people to agree with you?


You attack and ridicule them personally, yet without the benefit of knowing them personally, or at all. Why do you continually accuse people of anger and other emotional states you cannot accurately perceive. You just use it as a polarizing debating tactic.
Your disciples outright threaten to disallow jumpseat privileges. (oh, and I have archived it should it happen...)
You block people whom you can't control and are too dangerous to your regional jet/defeatist mentality.

You really should try to be more rational and logical. Remember your blind faith and misplaced allegiance got us to a point where it took 3 ALPA drives to get them here. Now you are sabotaging their efforts with low RJ standards.


https://i.imgur.com/BLaTY5c.jpg

And yes, I know you're not reading this.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

seekingblue
07-07-2018, 02:24 PM
Bozo, aren't you the angry hypocrite that can't openly debate people? Why are you so adamant about knowing who is saying what? Will that allow you and your non-lanyard wearing buddies to target the rebels? If you cared about debating the issues at hand, it shouldn't matter whose face is behind it.



What happens exactly when you can't force people to agree with you?


You attack and ridicule them personally, yet without the benefit of knowing them personally, or at all. Why do you continually accuse people of anger and other emotional states you cannot accurately perceive. You just use it as a polarizing debating tactic.
Your disciples outright threaten to disallow jumpseat privileges. (oh, and I have archived it should it happen...)
You block people whom you can't control and are too dangerous to your regional jet/defeatist mentality.

You really should try to be more rational and logical. Remember your blind faith and misplaced allegiance got us to a point where it took 3 ALPA drives to get them here. Now you are sabotaging their efforts with low RJ standards.


https://i.imgur.com/BLaTY5c.jpg

And yes, I know you're not reading this.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


Queue-

Do you get paid per hour or per post to be on here?

If you have a family, go spend more time with them. Seriously. Iíve been off this site for 6 days and you have hundreds of posts. Iím ready to not be on here for another few days.

Maybe Jetblue, APC, and Star Trek references are your thing. If you have a family, cherish them. Spend time with them. But if you are doing this pro-bono and not a 3rd year law student, just take a freaking breath and go be with the people you love.

DRMic
07-08-2018, 04:31 AM
I had chicken n waffles for breakfast after voting YES!

seekingblue
07-08-2018, 04:57 AM
I had chicken n waffles for breakfast after voting YES!

Yum. I prefer the Nashville hot style chicken and waffles. Add some extra syrup/ honey and itís dynamite.

DRMic
07-08-2018, 05:32 AM
Noted! With all my extra cash Iíll make with this TA, Iíll make an extra trip out there during my awesome summer vacation Iíll finally get to compare to creeks cafe here in NC!

Yum. I prefer the Nashville hot style chicken and waffles. Add some extra syrup/ honey and itís dynamite.

DRMic
07-08-2018, 05:37 AM
A no vote saves B6 over $300,000,000 each year minimum. That 300mil is on pay raises and 401 alone! This is an excellent TA coming from nothing.
I think you over estimate how much money this TA actually cost the company. By the same logic we should vote yes to literally ANY TA presented to us, no matter how bad.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 05:47 AM
A no vote saves B6 over $300,000,000 each year minimum. That 300mil is on pay raises and 401 alone! This is an excellent TA coming from nothing.

Well since it was in the Info that the 4yr contract was 750million...

Your math is a little off.

nuball5
07-08-2018, 05:53 AM
Well since it was in the Info that the 4yr contract was 750million...

Your math is a little off.

They said at the Roadshow that 750mill was the minimum, but yea 1.2 billion seems a tad high.

DRMic
07-10-2018, 06:01 AM
Itís actually simple math. Split the pilot group in half, 3600 pilots half FOs and half Cpts. Add in the pay raise, loss of pto, big gain of VPTO, 401k. Itís around 40k/yr FOs and 70k Cpts. 40 x 1800 FOs is 72mil and 70 x 1800 Cpts is 126mil. 126 and 72 is 198mil. Those are simple numbers. If you go and calculate the number of FOs and Cpts by their seniority the number will be higher. The basic math above is 1800 yr 2 FOs and 1800 yr 10 Cpts. The number will likely be higher since there is maybe only 400 yr 1 and 2 FOs. Doesnít include going to work 4days and getting minimum 20hrs. So yeah 300million is actually pretty accurate! My numbers were very close to several FOs Iíve flown with that had the common sense to look at this TA and do some math 101

Well since it was in the Info that the 4yr contract was 750million...

Your math is a little off.

PasserOGas
07-10-2018, 06:07 AM
Itís actually simple math. Split the pilot group in half, 3600 pilots half FOs and half Cpts. Add in the pay raise, loss of pto, big gain of VPTO, 401k. Itís around 40k/yr FOs and 70k Cpts. 40 x 1800 FOs is 72mil and 70 x 1800 Cpts is 126mil. 126 and 72 is 198mil. Those are simple numbers. If you go and calculate the number of FOs and Cpts by their seniority the number will be higher. The basic math above is 1800 yr 2 FOs and 1800 yr 10 Cpts. The number will likely be higher since there is maybe only 400 yr 1 and 2 FOs. Doesnít include going to work 4days and getting minimum 20hrs. So yeah 300million is actually pretty accurate! My numbers were very close to several FOs Iíve flown with that had the common sense to look at this TA and do some math 101

Um, no. Have you taken into account the lack of PTO sell back? The fact that global open time allows for fewer RSA/VDA? The savings from lowering the LTD payout?

Don't worry about the 5 hr calendar day rig, the company will place those into 4-5 day trips with tons of flying on the front to avoid paying for it.

If your math was correct believe me B6ALPA would be shouting it from the rooftops.

Bluedriver
07-10-2018, 06:14 AM
Itís actually simple math. Split the pilot group in half, 3600 pilots half FOs and half Cpts. Add in the pay raise, loss of pto, big gain of VPTO, 401k. Itís around 40k/yr FOs and 70k Cpts. 40 x 1800 FOs is 72mil and 70 x 1800 Cpts is 126mil. 126 and 72 is 198mil. Those are simple numbers. If you go and calculate the number of FOs and Cpts by their seniority the number will be higher. The basic math above is 1800 yr 2 FOs and 1800 yr 10 Cpts. The number will likely be higher since there is maybe only 400 yr 1 and 2 FOs. Doesnít include going to work 4days and getting minimum 20hrs. So yeah 300million is actually pretty accurate! My numbers were very close to several FOs Iíve flown with that had the common sense to look at this TA and do some math 101

I hope you are kidding? Most FOs won't see anywhere close to 40k. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

BeatNavy
07-10-2018, 06:18 AM
Thatís JetBlue math for ya.

PasserOGas
07-10-2018, 06:21 AM
I am getting sick of half truths from B6ALPA.

From the recent email.



Q. How long do I have to wait on the phone with Crew Services if I have to call during a Level 2 or 3 IROP?



A. The Association and the Company are aware of excessive hold times with Crew Services. A Pilot cannot be faulted for these waits and the use of the call back function provides record of your attempt to satisfy Postive Contact. This attempt is only required in a Level 2 or 3 IROP (which has increased parameters from today) and Crew Services has failed to complete modifications within the applicable time limits.


What?! Read the TA. It says positive contact MUST BE MADE BY THE PILOT. There an no provisions made for attempts. No time on hold agreement. None of what they say in this LIE of a response.

Q. We have heard that Frontier has cancelled scheduled vacations. How can they do this, and can JetBlue do this under the Tentative Agreement?



A. Rather than admit its own failure to properly staff the airline, attract sufficient pilots to a substandard contract and operate capably, Frontier has cancelled some August scheduled vacations, is changing its sick leave policy and taking several other actions in violation of its agreement. Frontier management, its CEO and investors at Indigo Partners have a long track record of flouting collective bargaining agreements. A noted arbitrator has already ruled that the Company was not bargaining in good faith over interim bankruptcy recovery pay increases. This is more of the same. The Frontier MEC will aggressively protect their contract and, based on precedent, the Association is confident it will be successful in overturning these additional bad faith management decisions.

Today, JetBlue could cancel vacations, and while we would likely dispute it, we do not have a two-party agreement in place to support our defense. Under the Tentative Agreement, in addition to a staffing formula, the Company must comply with 24.M.3, which states that "... the Company will increase the number of Pilots needed to ensure the Base remains staffed sufficiently to account for full time Management/Association Pilots, vacations, sick leave, leave of absences, training, etc.." There is no allowance for it to cancel vacation under the veil of lack of staffing. Cancelling vacations due to "operational necessity" is a standard applied throughout our industry, such as at Delta, Spirit, Alaska, and the bargaining history of this phrase was discussed on the record, is admissible in the Grievance/Arbitration process, and is fully understood by both the Company and the Association as not being applicable to correct for inadequate staffing.




It was actually BOTH Frontier AND Spirit that canceled vacations this summer. Both due to operational necessity as allowed by our TA. It has become the new normal of bottom feeding companies (like ours) to do this and they have faced NO repercussions for it.

benzoate
07-11-2018, 07:00 AM
I am getting sick of half truths from B6ALPA.

From the recent email.



Q. How long do I have to wait on the phone with Crew Services if I have to call during a Level 2 or 3 IROP?



A. The Association and the Company are aware of excessive hold times with Crew Services. A Pilot cannot be faulted for these waits and the use of the call back function provides record of your attempt to satisfy Postive Contact. This attempt is only required in a Level 2 or 3 IROP (which has increased parameters from today) and Crew Services has failed to complete modifications within the applicable time limits.


What?! Read the TA. It says positive contact MUST BE MADE BY THE PILOT. There an no provisions made for attempts. No time on hold agreement. None of what they say in this LIE of a response.

Q. We have heard that Frontier has cancelled scheduled vacations. How can they do this, and can JetBlue do this under the Tentative Agreement?



A. Rather than admit its own failure to properly staff the airline, attract sufficient pilots to a substandard contract and operate capably, Frontier has cancelled some August scheduled vacations, is changing its sick leave policy and taking several other actions in violation of its agreement. Frontier management, its CEO and investors at Indigo Partners have a long track record of flouting collective bargaining agreements. A noted arbitrator has already ruled that the Company was not bargaining in good faith over interim bankruptcy recovery pay increases. This is more of the same. The Frontier MEC will aggressively protect their contract and, based on precedent, the Association is confident it will be successful in overturning these additional bad faith management decisions.

Today, JetBlue could cancel vacations, and while we would likely dispute it, we do not have a two-party agreement in place to support our defense. Under the Tentative Agreement, in addition to a staffing formula, the Company must comply with 24.M.3, which states that "... the Company will increase the number of Pilots needed to ensure the Base remains staffed sufficiently to account for full time Management/Association Pilots, vacations, sick leave, leave of absences, training, etc.." There is no allowance for it to cancel vacation under the veil of lack of staffing. Cancelling vacations due to "operational necessity" is a standard applied throughout our industry, such as at Delta, Spirit, Alaska, and the bargaining history of this phrase was discussed on the record, is admissible in the Grievance/Arbitration process, and is fully understood by both the Company and the Association as not being applicable to correct for inadequate staffing.




It was actually BOTH Frontier AND Spirit that canceled vacations this summer. Both due to operational necessity as allowed by our TA. It has become the new normal of bottom feeding companies (like ours) to do this and they have faced NO repercussions for it.

There is no language that covers every single section perfectly. There were copious notes taken that cover intent. This is like the vacation debate on the b!tch board. Nothing to see here, move on.

expectholding
07-11-2018, 07:07 AM
There is no language that covers every single section perfectly. There were copious notes taken that cover intent. This is like the vacation debate on the b!tch board. Nothing to see here, move on.

Agreed......

queue
07-11-2018, 06:28 PM
A no vote saves B6 over $300,000,000 each year minimum. That 300mil is on pay raises and 401 alone! This is an excellent TA coming from nothing.

What a horrible standard... better than nothing?

How about demanding at least SWA pay? How about putting solid lines around the Dependability Policy?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-11-2018, 06:33 PM
Queue-

Do you get paid per hour or per post to be on here?

If you have a family, go spend more time with them. Seriously. Iíve been off this site for 6 days and you have hundreds of posts. Iím ready to not be on here for another few days.

Maybe Jetblue, APC, and Star Trek references are your thing. If you have a family, cherish them. Spend time with them. But if you are doing this pro-bono and not a 3rd year law student, just take a freaking breath and go be with the people you love.

I am doing the best for my family by not tolerating mediocrity. This TA is substandard and legally vague.

Rather than given me uniformed advice about something you know nothing of, why don't you learn more about contracts and learn about why people think the TA is substandard. I have provided plenty of no-go reasons about this TA. Each one is enough to cast a NO vote. Say what you will but the Regional Mentality bargain basement pilots cannot prove my points wrong. All they have is fearmongering, speculation, and of course, self imposed defeatism. BJ pilots need to learn to be winners, not sheep.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-11-2018, 07:51 PM
There is no language that covers every single section perfectly. There were copious notes taken that cover intent. This is like the vacation debate on the b!tch board. Nothing to see here, move on.

Hey! Awesome! Where are the notes published so I can reference them when I fail to make positive contact?

Or do I have to wait until I am in a post discipline grievance to see them?

queue
07-11-2018, 09:08 PM
Hey! Awesome! Where are the notes published so I can reference them when I fail to make positive contact?

Or do I have to wait until I am in a post discipline grievance to see them?


That's exactly right.


All that matters is what is written. No amount of being "talked into" this TA from the B6ALPA get togethers will change the text. It might make one feel better by offering more opinions/intent in one direction, but it doesn't change the fact of what is legal/written.



BJ has gone after many people using the "positive contact" clause in the past. The PEA nor FOM explicitly defined positive contact. Although now they define it from the standpoint of verbal exchanges, it left one big gaping hole.... positive contact via JetCrw. BJ has even handed out punishment because they left someone a voicemail... that was counted as positive contact. If they've done it in the past, rest assured they will exploit the massive TA loophole on positive contact.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

expectholding
07-12-2018, 06:23 AM
That's exactly right.


All that matters is what is written. No amount of being "talked into" this TA from the B6ALPA get togethers will change the text. It might make one feel better by offering more opinions/intent in one direction, but it doesn't change the fact of what is legal/written.



BJ has gone after many people using the "positive contact" clause in the past. The PEA nor FOM explicitly defined positive contact. Although now they define it from the standpoint of verbal exchanges, it left one big gaping hole.... positive contact via JetCrw. BJ has even handed out punishment because they left someone a voicemail... that was counted as positive contact. If they've done it in the past, rest assured they will exploit the massive TA loophole on positive contact.



You could at least get your facts right.

Section 2:
Positive Contact: When a Pilot and Crew Services speak on a recorded line or when two-way communication occurs between a Pilot and Crew Services via JETCRW.

You would have to acknowledge to make it a 2-way communication via JetCrw.

You're all hung up on language. GMAFB!!...the UAL and Delta contracts have gaping holes, but I bet you'd take a copy/paste of their contract though.

Our FOCUS should be on job protection, pay, rigs, retirement, time off, etc. And its all there.

RiddleEagle18
07-12-2018, 06:40 AM
Queue has got to be Barney right? I canít be the only one who sees the similarities in post style?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

todd1200
07-12-2018, 06:51 AM
Queue has got to be Barney right? I canít be the only one who sees the similarities in post style?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To me, it seems like an automated algorithm combined Barney, Bluemax and Scud.

PasserOGas
07-12-2018, 06:59 AM
You could at least get your facts right.

Section 2:
Positive Contact: When a Pilot and Crew Services speak on a recorded line or when two-way communication occurs between a Pilot and Crew Services via JETCRW.

You would have to acknowledge to make it a 2-way communication via JetCrw.

You're all hung up on language. GMAFB!!...the UAL and Delta contracts have gaping holes, but I bet you'd take a copy/paste of their contract though.

Our FOCUS should be on job protection, pay, rigs, retirement, time off, etc. And its all there.

Again, how long must I be on hold with CS before the positive contact section of the TA is satisfied? Where is the LOA on this subject. If B6ALPA's policy is "The company told us don't worry about it." they need to be fired.

And this is just one example. They are obviously selling a bill of goods. Does anyone dispute that? They ignore whole sections, they tell half truths about the language. It's not OK.

seekingblue
07-12-2018, 07:09 AM
Again, how long must I be on hold with CS before the positive contact section of the TA is satisfied? Where is the LOA on this subject. If B6ALPA's policy is "The company told us don't worry about it." they need to be fired.

And this is just one example. They are obviously selling a bill of goods. Does anyone dispute that? They ignore whole sections, they tell half truths about the language. It's not OK.

Per the Q and A:

Section 25.R.6.b What if a pilot attempts to call back within this 15 min window but is forced to be on an extended hold time on the phone system? Itís common during bad weather days to be on hold over 20-30 min. How does the phone tree ďcallbackĒ option apply to this as well?
Per this section, the pilot has 15 minutes to initiate a responding call to Crew Services. The initiation of the call satisfies the response requirement. The pilot would still be responsible for reporting for duty no less than 2:30 hours (plus additional time for co-bases) after the initial contact attempt by Crew Services. When lengthy hold times are in effect, the callback option would at least provide a record that the pilot attempted contact with Crew Services.

Edit: what you and Queue seem to be missing is that these rules weren't created in a vacuum. There are thousands of pages of notes (explaining intent of each piece of the contract). This would be an example of where this applies.

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 07:14 AM
Per the Q and A:

Section 25.R.6.b What if a pilot attempts to call back within this 15 min window but is forced to be on an extended hold time on the phone system? Itís common during bad weather days to be on hold over 20-30 min. How does the phone tree ďcallbackĒ option apply to this as well?
Per this section, the pilot has 15 minutes to initiate a responding call to Crew Services. The initiation of the call satisfies the response requirement. The pilot would still be responsible for reporting for duty no less than 2:30 hours (plus additional time for co-bases) after the initial contact attempt by Crew Services. When lengthy hold times are in effect, the callback option would at least provide a record that the pilot attempted contact with Crew Services.

Edit: what you and Queue seem to be missing is that these rules weren't created in a vacuum. There are thousands of pages of notes (explaining intent of each piece of the contract). This would be an example of where this applies.

And for being released after a cancellation package in a level 2? How long past the end of the "completed by 00:00" do you need to stay on hold or wait for the "call back"?

seekingblue
07-12-2018, 07:19 AM
And for being released after a cancellation package in a level 2? How long past the end of the "completed by 00:00" do you need to stay on hold or wait for the "call back"?

No idea. It's a reasonable question. My guess is that you are free to go after the reassignment time has passed with a good faith attempt to contact CS.

Can you please submit to the ALPA Q&A section? I'd like to see what notes they have on the subject.

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 08:24 AM
No idea. It's a reasonable question. My guess is that you are free to go after the reassignment time has passed with a good faith attempt to contact CS.

Can you please submit to the ALPA Q&A section? I'd like to see what notes they have on the subject.

Que Hyperboy checking the union database to find out WHO asked said question...

The actual answer doesn't matter in the context of the vote. The TA is the TA is the TA.

Even if we HATE the answer, it's not changing, so vote YES, vote NO, whatever.

The answer will be important to those it affects in the day-to-day operation and will be resolved via "grievance" I'm quite sure.

queue
07-12-2018, 08:34 AM
The answer will be important to those it affects in the day-to-day operation and will be resolved via "grievance" I'm quite sure.


And that's the problem... the grievance process breeds DEPENDENCY. The more vague the "contract", the more grievance you need, the more $$$ lawyers make. This is a business for them (and ALPA).



BJ will exploit the TA's weaknesses to the legal limit. They have a LONG history of doing that.



If you have to ask someone else about what the TA means, then it's a badly written TA. No amount of roadshows will fix the existing TA. Only Voting NO then fixing the TA will fix the root cause.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

seekingblue
07-12-2018, 09:00 AM
And that's the problem... the grievance process breeds DEPENDENCY. The more vague the "contract", the more grievance you need, the more $$$ lawyers make. This is a business for them (and ALPA).



BJ will exploit the TA's weaknesses to the legal limit. They have a LONG history of doing that.



If you have to ask someone else about what the TA means, then it's a badly written TA. No amount of roadshows will fix the existing TA. Only Voting NO then fixing the TA will fix the root cause.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Queue-

What are you going to do after July 27th? I honestly hope we can be a strong and united group- no matter the vote.

Also, the question has been asked, and Iím honestly curious: are you a lawyer? Or do you have any legal experience? Why arenít you on JBLU pilots or bluepilots? Something to verify you really are a Jetblue Pilot.

queue
07-12-2018, 09:59 AM
Queue-

What are you going to do after July 27th? I honestly hope we can be a strong and united group- no matter the vote.

Also, the question has been asked, and Iím honestly curious: are you a lawyer? Or do you have any legal experience? Why arenít you on JBLU pilots or bluepilots? Something to verify you really are a Jetblue Pilot.


What I do after the 27th is contingent upon whether we vote in the TA or not. If it doesn't pass and we get a chance to TA 2.0, I will try to influence TA 2.0. However, a vital ingredient to TA 2.0 will be the pilot group willing to do informational pickets often. If we can't persuade BJ with power, then the legalese will never get a chance to happen. Furthermore, our MEC/NC needs to a swift kick in the arse to stop hiding behind surveys and ALPA status-quo as a reason for their lack of aggressiveness. They need to gain a military mindset with a shock-and-awe, overwhelming dominance conviction. If TA 1.0 gets passed, then I need to explore legal options to stop funding an organization I do not temporarily agree with until a time at which the right people can be put into servant positions. Then we can exercise our yet non-existent free will option to fund them. As you know, the Supreme Court ruled in the favor of non-lanyard wearers not paying union dues for public unions. The same precedent can be used to get the freedom to choose to fund ALPA or not. It just hasn't been taken to court, although I feel it would be an easy victory against forced payment. The ultimate goal is to keep our union accountable to getting us an industry rate/industry leading contract. Of course this is just an option and not one I'm in favor of because of the risk of causing permanent damage to ALPA, which I do not want. I simply want to make ALPA into a winning formula, not the loser it is now. The only reason they can claim any victory is because they are a monopoly. So all the "yes" voters can really only make an argument citing "it's better than what we had before". When you have a monopoly, you only progress just enough to say "you're better than what you had before". I won't be happy until pilots from other airlines envy being a BJ pilot because of pay and rules. That hasn't happened because ALPA hasn't delivered. If we gained the ability to break the monopoly by having the freedom to choose whether we fund something or not, then we all win. Then ALPA will have to PERFORM in order to gain funding. I'll be happy to pay $$$ if ALPA delivers results. However, TA 1.0 is a failure. Look at pay rates alone... they are already substandard particularly when you subtract out (1.9%++ or ~2.1% from ALPA dues alone).



I don't want to answer about my credentials. I need to remain anonymous to be effective. I also don't want people to trust others (or me) simply because they are making an "authority position" argument (e.g. I have a PHD after my name so only I can be right... I'm an ALPA MEC veteran so I know more than you). You can judge my viewpoints on their merit alone. My agenda is simple: make this profession professional again with professional pay and work rules.



JBLU pilots and Bluepilots are not anonymous. Someone knows who you are. If BJ wanted to, there are legal mechanisms to unmask those people (subpoena). Plus, I'm not convinced that Bluepilots isn't run by BJ in some way to serve as a honeypot. JBLU pilots is well intentioned but is flawed because you are easily unmasked through legal mechanisms.



Here's something I just got in the mail....


https://preview.ibb.co/fgzg98/propaganda.jpg



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

say again
07-12-2018, 10:03 AM
Queue-

What are you going to do after July 27th? I honestly hope we can be a strong and united group- no matter the vote.

Also, the question has been asked, and Iím honestly curious: are you a lawyer? Or do you have any legal experience? Why arenít you on JBLU pilots or bluepilots? Something to verify you really are a Jetblue Pilot.

He's obviously not. Easy to ignore...

queue
07-12-2018, 10:12 AM
He's obviously not. Easy to ignore...


Believe what you will... it doesn't change anything. If BJ becomes a better place for pilots, I win (and you win).



Don't descend from the MSA on a visual approach unless you're established on a segment of an instrument approach. It's far safer and you can avoid terrain warnings.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Junglejet4life
07-12-2018, 12:06 PM
What I do after the 27th is contingent upon whether we vote in the TA or not. If it doesn't pass and we get a chance to TA 2.0, I will try to influence TA 2.0. However, a vital ingredient to TA 2.0 will be the pilot group willing to do informational pickets often. If we can't persuade BJ with power, then the legalese will never get a chance to happen. Furthermore, our MEC/NC needs to a swift kick in the arse to stop hiding behind surveys and ALPA status-quo as a reason for their lack of aggressiveness. They need to gain a military mindset with a shock-and-awe, overwhelming dominance conviction. If TA 1.0 gets passed, then I need to explore legal options to stop funding an organization I do not temporarily agree with until a time at which the right people can be put into servant positions. Then we can exercise our yet non-existent free will option to fund them. As you know, the Supreme Court ruled in the favor of non-lanyard wearers not paying union dues for public unions. The same precedent can be used to get the freedom to choose to fund ALPA or not. It just hasn't been taken to court, although I feel it would be an easy victory against forced payment. The ultimate goal is to keep our union accountable to getting us an industry rate/industry leading contract. Of course this is just an option and not one I'm in favor of because of the risk of causing permanent damage to ALPA, which I do not want. I simply want to make ALPA into a winning formula, not the loser it is now. The only reason they can claim any victory is because they are a monopoly. So all the "yes" voters can really only make an argument citing "it's better than what we had before". When you have a monopoly, you only progress just enough to say "you're better than what you had before". I won't be happy until pilots from other airlines envy being a BJ pilot because of pay and rules. That hasn't happened because ALPA hasn't delivered. If we gained the ability to break the monopoly by having the freedom to choose whether we fund something or not, then we all win. Then ALPA will have to PERFORM in order to gain funding. I'll be happy to pay $$$ if ALPA delivers results. However, TA 1.0 is a failure. Look at pay rates alone... they are already substandard particularly when you subtract out (1.9%++ or ~2.1% from ALPA dues alone).



I don't want to answer about my credentials. I need to remain anonymous to be effective. I also don't want people to trust others (or me) simply because they are making an "authority position" argument (e.g. I have a PHD after my name so only I can be right... I'm an ALPA MEC veteran so I know more than you). You can judge my viewpoints on their merit alone. My agenda is simple: make this profession professional again with professional pay and work rules.



JBLU pilots and Bluepilots are not anonymous. Someone knows who you are. If BJ wanted to, there are legal mechanisms to unmask those people (subpoena). Plus, I'm not convinced that Bluepilots isn't run by BJ in some way to serve as a honeypot. JBLU pilots is well intentioned but is flawed because you are easily unmasked through legal mechanisms.



Here's something I just got in the mail....


https://preview.ibb.co/fgzg98/propaganda.jpg



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

There are technological mechanisms for revealing the redacted portion of the envelope you posted.

Robert Crawley
07-12-2018, 12:43 PM
Currently JetBlue staffs approximately 15 pilots per plane. Any mathematical formula how they currently come to this result and could it be applied to the new TA rules for a guestimate of required pilot numbers under the TA?

pilotpayne
07-12-2018, 01:08 PM
There are technological mechanisms for revealing the redacted portion of the envelope you posted.

Oh so we get to know who Q is

queue
07-12-2018, 04:51 PM
There are technological mechanisms for revealing the redacted portion of the envelope you posted.


https://dncache-mauganscorp.netdna-ssl.com/thumbseg/38/38998-bigthumbnail.jpg

https://78.media.tumblr.com/05aac6ece3a623f191be9d937c65ad34/tumblr_inline_n98ftqW8MG1sthg2o.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ta963zH2V30/VQI1wglmHrI/AAAAAAAA3oM/Jb2DrbRKvSI/s1600/The-Thomas-Crown-Affair-1999-Art-Theft-Pierce-Brosnan-40.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-12-2018, 08:11 PM
Per the Q and A:

Section 25.R.6.b What if a pilot attempts to call back within this 15 min window but is forced to be on an extended hold time on the phone system? Itís common during bad weather days to be on hold over 20-30 min. How does the phone tree ďcallbackĒ option apply to this as well?
Per this section, the pilot has 15 minutes to initiate a responding call to Crew Services. The initiation of the call satisfies the response requirement. The pilot would still be responsible for reporting for duty no less than 2:30 hours (plus additional time for co-bases) after the initial contact attempt by Crew Services. When lengthy hold times are in effect, the callback option would at least provide a record that the pilot attempted contact with Crew Services.

Edit: what you and Queue seem to be missing is that these rules weren't created in a vacuum. There are thousands of pages of notes (explaining intent of each piece of the contract). This would be an example of where this applies.

OK, we are talking about different sections. I was referring to the "line holder sits airport standby for four hours, and cannot leave until he makes positive contact" section of this abysmal TA.

You were talking about reserve, where they could call to release you. You miss the call and drive 2 hours to the airport for no reason.

Totally different bull$h!t section.

queue
07-12-2018, 10:22 PM
Edit: what you and Queue seem to be missing is that these rules weren't created in a vacuum. There are thousands of pages of notes (explaining intent of each piece of the contract). This would be an example of where this applies.

Incorrect. You cannot apply conventional wisdom and intent to contracts. If it's not written, it doesn't exist. If you try to throw intent, even if documented, you always run the risk of losing. Unless the contract is explicit, it will be like 3A all over again....

Too many BJ pilots don't get that their conventional fuzzy logic doesn't apply in this kind of situation. Weak language is room for BJ lawyers to screw us.... they've done it over and over again yet people here don't learn.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

benzoate
07-13-2018, 10:41 AM
Hey! Awesome! Where are the notes published so I can reference them when I fail to make positive contact?

Or do I have to wait until I am in a post discipline grievance to see them?

Notes aren't published. Is this your first contract? Just asking.

The interpretation has been set and should there be an issue which is unlikely the grievance committee will have the notes. Truly you guys are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

There are so many other sections that should cause you to vote no.

FollowMe
07-13-2018, 11:05 AM
Incorrect. You cannot apply conventional wisdom and intent to contracts. If it's not written, it doesn't exist. If you try to throw intent, even if documented, you always run the risk of losing. Unless the contract is explicit, it will be like 3A all over again....

Too many BJ pilots don't get that their conventional fuzzy logic doesn't apply in this kind of situation. Weak language is room for BJ lawyers to screw us.... they've done it over and over again yet people here don't learn.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Actually bargaining notes are entirely admissible as witness to intent of language. Often good bargaining notes are more important than the language itself. Not that I donít agree with many of your overarching points, just needed to clarify.

Of course the downside of bargaining notes is very few people know what they say since they are not in the body of language.

hyperboy
07-13-2018, 12:28 PM
Que Hyperboy checking the union database to find out WHO asked said question...

The actual answer doesn't matter in the context of the vote. The TA is the TA is the TA.

Even if we HATE the answer, it's not changing, so vote YES, vote NO, whatever.

The answer will be important to those it affects in the day-to-day operation and will be resolved via "grievance" I'm quite sure.

Low blow. No matter what is said I serve this pilot group and for their benefit only I assure you....everyday


I also think it’s safe to say most know who I am. Nothing to hide. :)

dontsurf
07-14-2018, 08:21 AM
just for fun, let's say we do announce some 321lr orders at Farnborough. how does our augmented section stack up against united, delta, American? i don't know anything about augmented operations, so i'm just curious how the TA compares.

seekingblue
07-14-2018, 08:27 AM
just for fun, let's say we do announce some 321lr orders at Farnborough. how does our augmented section stack up against united, delta, American? i don't know anything about augmented operations, so i'm just curious how the TA compares.

Same question to those in the know.

The TA bullet points say,"industry standard augmented operations language." I'd be curious to see how it fits.

Doing a bit of reading it looks like we are guaranteed a rest seat in Mint. Mint style crew meals etc etc.

Desdi
07-14-2018, 11:15 AM
Same question to those in the know.

The TA bullet points say,"industry standard augmented operations language." I'd be curious to see how it fits.

Doing a bit of reading it looks like we are guaranteed a rest seat in Mint. Mint style crew meals etc etc.

I hope ur not too impressed by the company giving you a Mint seat. For FDPs to be extended under augmentation provisions you need to be provided a seat with at least 40 degrees of recline. So the only seats in the fleet (currently) would have to be a Mint seat, which would qualify as a class 2 rest facility. Look up the definitions for class 1,2 and 3 rest facilities. I sure hope not one ounce of negotiating capital was expended for that line! I would’ve much rather have seen a nugget in there about a prohibition on domestic augmented operations.

queue
07-16-2018, 08:59 PM
Actually bargaining notes are entirely admissible as witness to intent of language. Often good bargaining notes are more important than the language itself. Not that I donít agree with many of your overarching points, just needed to clarify.

Of course the downside of bargaining notes is very few people know what they say since they are not in the body of language.

It's always rolling the dice unless it's written in the contract, and that's a huge problem for us. BJ could always make clever arguments against non-contract verbiage. The legal system is not in our favor unless the contract is explicit, leaving no room for interpretation. Trying to win in court will probably be next to impossible with current TA weak language. I'm not even certain that the entire contract doesn't have Remedies sought under arbitration. Section is explicitly arbitration. If the entire TA is implied and executed under arbitration, we might as well forget the idea of it being a "contract" and just call it PEA 2.0. Remember what arbitration got us in 3A. So we need to shoot down TA 1 and make TA 2 bulletproof.


The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

dontsurf
07-27-2018, 07:34 AM
i'll go with 68-29 with 3% not voting.

I wasn't too far off

seekingblue
07-27-2018, 08:02 AM
I wasn't too far off

Good guess. Would have thought the vote would have been closer.

Sun Tzu
07-27-2018, 08:48 AM
Good guess. Would have thought the vote would have been closer.


A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, is what I think it came down to. It's a "decent" deal but a far, far cry above what we had.

Plus the obvious one: SCOPE!

symbian simian
07-27-2018, 10:11 AM
A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush, is what I think it came down to. It's a "decent" deal but a far, far cry above what we had.

Plus the obvious one: SCOPE!

Personally I prefer two hands in the ďbushĒ

seekingblue
07-27-2018, 10:18 AM
Personally I prefer two hands in the ďbushĒ

Iím a no bush guy, myself

Kerizbro
07-27-2018, 10:41 AM
I saw the payscales somewhere but cannot find them again, can anyone pm or post the new pay scales?


Also does this new TA change any of the reserve rules?

Thanks

seekingblue
07-27-2018, 11:15 AM
I saw the payscales somewhere but cannot find them again, can anyone pm or post the new pay scales?


Also does this new TA change any of the reserve rules?

Thanks


Lots has changed.

Here is the Full T/A:

http://jbumec.alpa.org/portals/jbu/ta2018/tentative%20agreement%20-%202018.pdf

vroll1800
07-28-2018, 07:11 PM
Thanks, seeking blue, for posting bullet points link (post #4), and TA link (post #578). Also belated congratulations on getting your first contract, and best wishes towards enforcing contract going forward.

seekingblue
07-29-2018, 05:09 AM
Thanks, seeking blue, for posting bullet points link (post #4), and TA link (post #578). Also belated congratulations on getting your first contract, and best wishes towards enforcing contract going forward.

No problem.

Thanks for the well wishes!

Kerizbro
07-29-2018, 05:02 PM
Lots has changed.

Here is the Full T/A:

http://jbumec.alpa.org/portals/jbu/ta2018/tentative%20agreement%20-%202018.pdf


Thanks appreciate it

PasserOGas
07-29-2018, 09:17 PM
Not much has changed.

Here is the Full T/A:

http://jbumec.alpa.org/portals/jbu/ta2018/tentative%20agreement%20-%202018.pdf

Fixed it for you.

seekingblue
07-30-2018, 02:41 AM
Fixed it for you.

Sigh.

Like this T/A or not, a significant amount has changed.

The pay rates, 401k accrual, reserve rules (come Dec. 31st 2019 or earlier), PTO rates, vacation distribution and bidding etc etc......

nuball5
07-30-2018, 03:40 AM
Sigh.

Like this T/A or not, a significant amount has changed.

The pay rates, 401k accrual, reserve rules (come Dec. 31st 2019 or earlier), PTO rates, vacation distribution and bidding etc etc......

Why are you wasting your time trying to convince POG it's good? Everyone...yes and no voters have to live with this TA regardless.

seekingblue
07-30-2018, 05:19 AM
Why are you wasting your time trying to convince POG it's good? Everyone...yes and no voters have to live with this TA regardless.

It's not a matter of good or bad. It is a matter of fact that this TA changes things. Good, bad or otherwise.

Just wanted to give full and accurate information to the APC guys and guys considering coming here.

nuball5
07-30-2018, 05:40 AM
It's not a matter of good or bad. It is a matter of fact that this TA changes things. Good, bad or otherwise.

Just wanted to give full and accurate information to the APC guys and guys considering coming here.

I get it...I think the TA is solid too. I also think that someone that gets career advice and takes that advice to heart from APC needs to get their head examined. It's a small industry....ask friends that you trust.

Bluedriver
07-30-2018, 05:52 AM
Sigh.

Like this T/A or not, a significant amount has changed.

The pay rates, 401k accrual, reserve rules (come Dec. 31st 2019 or earlier), PTO rates, vacation distribution and bidding etc etc......

PTO rates didn't really change. Total PTO accrual went up, but their is corresponding increase in the number of hours deducted from your PTO bank for the mandatory vacation, so no increase. Depending on how you previously used your PTO, possibly an overall decrease if you used to bid all 24.5/35 Vaca.

PasserOGas
07-30-2018, 06:19 AM
Sigh.

Like this T/A or not, a significant amount has changed.

vacation distribution

Fixed it for you. Everything else was a very small increase or a cost neutral shell game.

Bluedriver
07-30-2018, 06:37 AM
Fixed it for you. Everything else was a very small increase or a cost neutral shell game.

I need to look again, but is the improved distribution starting in 2019?

RiddleEagle18
07-30-2018, 06:42 AM
I need to look again, but is the improved distribution starting in 2019?



Round bidding and even distributed within the month start for the 2019 vacation bid.(October 2018)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bozo the pilot
07-30-2018, 06:43 AM
Fixed it for you. Everything else was a very small increase or a cost neutral shell game.

You're right. No increase in qol to see here, please move on.
PEA=CBA.

Bluedriver
07-30-2018, 06:50 AM
Round bidding and even distributed within the month start for the 2019 vacation bid.(October 2018)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Gracias amigo (Dominican accent).

AYLflyer
07-30-2018, 06:57 AM
Haven't seen it mentioned but I didn't fully understand how PTO is going to be earned between Aug 1 and Jan 1. So right now I earn 9hrs/mo of PTO, and we don't start our vacation bank until Jan 1st, so am I only earning 6hrs of PTO/mo between now and Jan 1st?

Also, anyone hear anything about retirement benefits? I know that DOS nets us 15% contributions, so has there been talk about when we'll actually see that appear on the empower site? I want to make sure everything gets maxed out but for now when I log in I'm still seeing the old numbers and no notes/news of any upcoming changes. Wasn't sure how quickly we'd see the company contribution number change.

Bluedriver
07-30-2018, 07:03 AM
Haven't seen it mentioned but I didn't fully understand how PTO is going to be earned between Aug 1 and Jan 1. So right now I earn 9hrs/mo of PTO, and we don't start our vacation bank until Jan 1st, so am I only earning 6hrs of PTO/mo between now and Jan 1st?

Also, anyone hear anything about retirement benefits? I know that DOS nets us 15% contributions, so has there been talk about when we'll actually see that appear on the empower site? I want to make sure everything gets maxed out but for now when I log in I'm still seeing the old numbers and no notes/news of any upcoming changes. Wasn't sure how quickly we'd see the company contribution number change.

Relax, LSC puzzle palace has totally got this under control.

RiddleEagle18
07-30-2018, 07:12 AM
Haven't seen it mentioned but I didn't fully understand how PTO is going to be earned between Aug 1 and Jan 1. So right now I earn 9hrs/mo of PTO, and we don't start our vacation bank until Jan 1st, so am I only earning 6hrs of PTO/mo between now and Jan 1st?



Also, anyone hear anything about retirement benefits? I know that DOS nets us 15% contributions, so has there been talk about when we'll actually see that appear on the empower site? I want to make sure everything gets maxed out but for now when I log in I'm still seeing the old numbers and no notes/news of any upcoming changes. Wasn't sure how quickly we'd see the company contribution number change.



You will earn your combined pto/vac benefit into your PTO balance for the rest of 2018.

So for you I believe itís about 12 hours a month for the rest of 2018.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180730/902bb695e3f4a333fddc5b1a6118d35d.png

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeatNavy
07-30-2018, 07:13 AM
Haven't seen it mentioned but I didn't fully understand how PTO is going to be earned between Aug 1 and Jan 1. So right now I earn 9hrs/mo of PTO, and we don't start our vacation bank until Jan 1st, so am I only earning 6hrs of PTO/mo between now and Jan 1st?

Also, anyone hear anything about retirement benefits? I know that DOS nets us 15% contributions, so has there been talk about when we'll actually see that appear on the empower site? I want to make sure everything gets maxed out but for now when I log in I'm still seeing the old numbers and no notes/news of any upcoming changes. Wasn't sure how quickly we'd see the company contribution number change.

The implementation LOA spells out the first concern.

Blue Dude
07-30-2018, 07:36 AM
Also, anyone hear anything about retirement benefits? I know that DOS nets us 15% contributions, so has there been talk about when we'll actually see that appear on the empower site? I want to make sure everything gets maxed out but for now when I log in I'm still seeing the old numbers and no notes/news of any upcoming changes. Wasn't sure how quickly we'd see the company contribution number change.

You know that you don't get 401k contributions until you've first earned the money? Yeah, that's still a thing, which is why you don't see it in Empower yet. You should see the increased contribution starting for the 8/20 check, which will show up in about a month from now.

HeloBubba53
07-30-2018, 08:34 AM
I need to look again, but is the improved distribution starting in 2019?

Starting Aug 1. (8 years or less) We accrue 12 hours of PTO. Jan 1, 2019 we accrue 6 hours of PTO and 6 hours VPTO (which will be used for vacation in 2020).

When we bid in October 2018 for the vacation we will take in 2019 it will be 24.5 hours for a 35 hour week of vacation. There will be additional weeks of vacation available and round bidding will be implemented, though there will be no requirement to take vacation.

Got this from the LOA

Kerizbro
07-31-2018, 05:08 PM
Tried to find it in the contract but guess I missed it...

What is the year one 401k company match?

seekingblue
07-31-2018, 05:28 PM
Tried to find it in the contract but guess I missed it...

What is the year one 401k company match?

No match.

15% directly deposed. No additional contribution required from the pilot.

Pilot has the ability to continue to contribute with no match.

Kerizbro
08-01-2018, 06:04 AM
Wow thatís great for you guys!

Thanks.