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View Full Version : The TA is finally here


dontsurf
06-24-2018, 01:10 PM
seems like this should have its own thread.

i have to say i'm underwhelmed by the reserve section.

and the health insurance section.

i really don't know what to think about the vacation stuff. is it a big improvement?


Bozo the pilot
06-24-2018, 01:11 PM
seems like this should have its own thread.

i have to say i'm underwhelmed by the reserve section.

and the health insurance section.

i really don't know what to think about the vacation stuff. is it a big improvement?

Youve seen the full doc? Or just the highlights?
Serious question.

Baba Yaga
06-24-2018, 01:24 PM
^^^ are you implying that the highlights and the letter of implementation are not real?


seekingblue
06-24-2018, 01:27 PM
seems like this should have its own thread.

i have to say i'm underwhelmed by the reserve section.

and the health insurance section.

i really don't know what to think about the vacation stuff. is it a big improvement?

http://jbumec.alpa.org/portals/jbu/ta2018/ta-highlights.pdf

dontsurf
06-24-2018, 01:27 PM
i wasn't trying to jump the gun. they've posted 3 documents, pretty crammed full of information. way more than the bullet points. i realize that the full language isn't there. but it will be tomorrow, they said.

i figured we could get started talking specifics (because these are specifics, these are not rumors [many rumors I've heard over the past week have been way off]), and the full language will only continue what this starts.

i'm not trying to force anyone to vote one way or another right now. i'm trying to start a dialogue that will be a month long.

dontsurf
06-24-2018, 01:28 PM
http://jbumec.alpa.org/portals/jbu/ta2018/ta-highlights.pdf

i am not sure what you are trying to say? i'm trying to discuss what they have posted.

seekingblue
06-24-2018, 01:28 PM
seems like this should have its own thread.

i have to say i'm underwhelmed by the reserve section.

and the health insurance section.

i really don't know what to think about the vacation stuff. is it a big improvement?

I think the scheduling section is the highlight. Iím underwhelmed by some of the other sections, but the scheduling section is a place where they got it right.

dontsurf
06-24-2018, 01:29 PM
I think the scheduling section is the highlight. I’m underwhelmed by some of the other sections, but the scheduling section is a place where they got it right.

i definitely see a lot to like in the scheduling section, too. especially in the comparison guide. i think they pulled some big wins in there.

seekingblue
06-24-2018, 01:34 PM
i definitely see a lot to like in the scheduling section, too. especially in the comparison guide. i think they pulled some big wins in there.

Agree. That will likely be what causes me to vote yes.

The insurance, payrates, etc Are sort of meh. Not great, not deal breakers.

BunkerF16
06-24-2018, 01:55 PM
The vote passed 7-5. That in and of itself is telling.

BunkerF16
06-24-2018, 01:57 PM
Agree. That will likely be what causes me to vote yes.

The insurance, payrates, etc Are sort of meh. Not great, not deal breakers.


And it's this "It's good enough" mentality among our pilot group that will be the reason it passes, not because it should.

CAirBear
06-24-2018, 02:12 PM
The vote passed 7-5. That in and of itself is telling.

Iím confused by this. I thought it was sent to you guys with a vote of 12-0. What changed?

BunkerF16
06-24-2018, 02:22 PM
Iím confused by this. I thought it was sent to you guys with a vote of 12-0. What changed?


12-0 vote was to send NC back with company to finalize language and implementation schedule.


7-5 vote was overall TA final MEC vote.


Underwhelming to say the least. This entire process is a JB management wet dream.

jstyle13
06-24-2018, 02:22 PM
Iím confused by this. I thought it was sent to you guys with a vote of 12-0. What changed?

That was just a 3 page highlight of the AIP. The MEC voted 12-0 just to release that to the pilot group and then go thru the full TA vetting/vote process which concludes today.

CAirBear
06-24-2018, 02:23 PM
That was just a 3 page highlight of the AIP. The MEC voted 12-0 just to release that to the pilot group and then go thru the full TA vetting/vote process which concludes today.

Gotcha now. Thanks guys!

RiddleEagle18
06-24-2018, 02:29 PM
seems like this should have its own thread.



i have to say i'm underwhelmed by the reserve section.



and the health insurance section.



i really don't know what to think about the vacation stuff. is it a big improvement?



Genuinely wondering what in the reserve section you didnít like? I thought that section was really really good. Especially when compared to everyone else. Maybe I missed something?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

dontsurf
06-24-2018, 03:07 PM
Genuinely wondering what in the reserve section you didnít like? I thought that section was really really good. Especially when compared to everyone else. Maybe I missed something?

i was hoping for even more days off (i had seen the 5 hour daily guarantee, and hoped the 75 hour reserve guarantee would mean 15 work days per month).

i was really really hoping for something like united has, where (as i understand it, as was told to me in the past, and maybe isn't current), everyone is long call, until converted, and you can only be converted 8 days a month or something like that.

this shows us having long call, but not everyone will have long call. i will have to wait to see examples of how it will play out, because i do not understand the percentages they are talking about vis a vis long call vs. short call.

the 4 bid periods vs. 2 bid periods for daily reserve is a good thing. well, i am really saying that it is all an improvement. there is nothing in there that goes backwards. it is definitely better than what we have now, but i was really hoping for something extraordinary.

RiddleEagle18
06-24-2018, 03:14 PM
i was hoping for even more days off (i had seen the 5 hour daily guarantee, and hoped the 75 hour reserve guarantee would mean 15 work days per month).



i was really really hoping for something like united has, where (as i understand it, as was told to me in the past, and maybe isn't current), everyone is long call, until converted, and you can only be converted 8 days a month or something like that.



this shows us having long call, but not everyone will have long call. i will have to wait to see examples of how it will play out, because i do not understand the percentages they are talking about vis a vis long call vs. short call.



the 4 bid periods vs. 2 bid periods for daily reserve is a good thing. well, i am really saying that it is all an improvement. there is nothing in there that goes backwards. it is definitely better than what we have now, but i was really hoping for something extraordinary.



Iíll have to look into UAL system but as far as days off it is better than UAL(12,13), American(12,13), spirit (12,13) Alaska 12, Hawaiian(12), dal is equal at (13,14) and SW blows everyone away at (14,15)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

dontsurf
06-24-2018, 03:19 PM
here's a question that i'm sure someone can answer now.

yesterday someone (and he claimed to know what he was talking about, how he knows the guys in the mec, etc. so i believed him) told me that if we vote for this contract, the pay rates will be retroactive to when the aip was signed, which i see was may 11th.

does anyone think this is true? i don't see anything about that anywhere in the highlights, or mentioned anywhere. they talk about "DOS", date of signing. does that mean when the aip was signed, or when a contract passes a vote of the pilots?

dontsurf
06-24-2018, 03:23 PM
Iíll have to look into UAL system but as far as days off it is better than UAL(12,13), American(12,13), spirit (12,13) Alaska 12, Hawaiian(12), dal is equal at (13,14) and SW blows everyone away at (14,15)


yes, definitely an improvement. those are the short call numbers you're quoting for us under the ta, while the long call will be equal to most of those airlines you mentioned.

again, it is all an improvement for reserves. i didn't say it was bad. i just said i was hoping for something extraordinary, and this isn't it.

Rabid Seagull
06-24-2018, 03:43 PM
For reserves I would have like to have seen a "no pairing finishing after 1700 on your last day" provision, give it to a 2-day pilot.


I don't know if I like the "physical standards" section. The other day somebody yelled out "you're a fat pilot". I assume it was with a ph?:eek:

Looking forward to the road shows. Will our dues pay for a printed copy or am I going to Kinkos?

symbian simian
06-24-2018, 03:45 PM
Iíll have to look into UAL system but as far as days off it is better than UAL(12,13), American(12,13), spirit (12,13) Alaska 12, Hawaiian(12), dal is equal at (13,14) and SW blows everyone away at (14,15)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Actually it is 15,15 days off for SWA, they limit workdays to 16 in 31 and 15 in 30.

zulu99
06-24-2018, 04:05 PM
The implementation schedule is unacceptable without some sort of monetary incentive.

Bluedriver
06-24-2018, 04:09 PM
I agree, the implementation schedule is the worst part of the whole thing. I think, so far.

Mattio
06-24-2018, 04:34 PM
It seems like (without considering the effect of new work rules), E190 guys that stay around 70 hours a month and are stingy with their PTO will take a pay cut in the first year. Going from annually selling 108+ PTO hours at premium pay to 72 hours at straight pay... Seems like the 6.8% raise in the first year won't make up for that lost pay. Maybe my math is wrong... and my math has gotten pretty rusty since school...

rvr1800
06-24-2018, 05:02 PM
here's a question that i'm sure someone can answer now.

yesterday someone (and he claimed to know what he was talking about, how he knows the guys in the mec, etc. so i believed him) told me that if we vote for this contract, the pay rates will be retroactive to when the aip was signed, which i see was may 11th.

does anyone think this is true? i don't see anything about that anywhere in the highlights, or mentioned anywhere. they talk about "DOS", date of signing. does that mean when the aip was signed, or when a contract passes a vote of the pilots?

From what Iíve been told, and read, DOS refers to the date that the pilot group votes to approve the TA and the MEC chair signs it. There will be no back pay.

hilltopflyer
06-24-2018, 05:17 PM
Really disappointed in health care cost and benefits. They seem to have gotten worse in some ways and marginally better in others.

citxls
06-24-2018, 05:46 PM
Really disappointed in health care cost and benefits. They seem to have gotten worse in some ways and marginally better in others.


This and the implementation schedule. I found marginal differences in healthcare which is a complete freaking joke.

jtrain609
06-24-2018, 05:47 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/2ctphq.jpg

hilltopflyer
06-24-2018, 05:55 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/2ctphq.jpg

What is better besides pay rates and average daily credit, reserves, oh ya I forgot anything that might be good is also delayed until 12/19. All this for measly pay advance.

jtrain609
06-24-2018, 05:57 PM
What is better besides pay rates and average daily credit, reserves, oh ya I forgot anything that might be good is also delayed until 12/19. All this for measly pay advance.

I'm here for the culture.

hilltopflyer
06-24-2018, 05:58 PM
I'm here for the culture.

Iím done talking to your trolling... instead of discussion of why you are voting yes you just troll....

jtrain609
06-24-2018, 06:05 PM
Iím done talking to your trolling... instead of discussion of why you are voting yes you just troll....

So this is what blows my mind here; guys eat up what Q has to say when he's OBVIOUSLY a troll. I'm OBVIOUSLY trolling and you can't see the humor in POSTING A MEME?

Pilot logic is astounding.

hilltopflyer
06-24-2018, 06:07 PM
So this is what blows my mind here; guys eat up what Q has to say when he's OBVIOUSLY a troll. I'm OBVIOUSLY trolling and you can't see the humor in POSTING A MEME?

Pilot logic is astounding.

I ignored q a looooong time ago.

jtrain609
06-24-2018, 06:10 PM
I ignored q a looooong time ago.

Fair.

But still.

It's a meme.

If you take ANYTHING said in a meme seriously you should be banned from the internet for six months and have your cell phone holster clip taken away.

11Bravo
06-24-2018, 06:20 PM
Is it better than what we have... perhaps. Is it still a steaming pile of sh!t? Yes! Vote NO early and vote NO often! A 7-5 union vote is not very convincing... at least some of our elected reps have the balls to say NO

hilltopflyer
06-24-2018, 06:28 PM
Is it better than what we have... perhaps. Is it still a steaming pile of sh!t? Yes! Vote NO early and vote NO often! A 7-5 union vote is not very convincing... at least some of our elected reps have the balls to say NO

Amen. Itís a touch better than what we have now baaaaarrrrreeeeellllllyyyyyy.

PasserOGas
06-24-2018, 07:16 PM
I like the part where if there is a commuting pilot trying to get to work, and there is room in mint, they will upgrade a passenger just to keep the pilot from getting it.

Says everything about what this company thinks of us.

Um, how much would commuting standby in mint cost the company again? Even the regionals get into first class if there is room.

PasserOGas
06-24-2018, 07:18 PM
Amen. Itís a touch better than what we have now baaaaarrrrreeeeellllllyyyyyy.

The fact that this cleared the NC means they should all be fired.

hilltopflyer
06-24-2018, 07:40 PM
Best part of this passes all the non members have to back pay their union dues or quit. Sucks to write that check.

N311JB
06-24-2018, 07:46 PM
I like the part where if there is a commuting pilot trying to get to work, and there is room in mint, they will upgrade a passenger just to keep the pilot from getting it.

Says everything about what this company thinks of us.

Um, how much would commuting standby in mint cost the company again? Even the regionals get into first class if there is room.

Hey they put DHs in mint. Only if itís over 7hrs. Because....we have zero flights over that block

Rabid Seagull
06-24-2018, 07:46 PM
I like the part where if there is a commuting pilot trying to get to work, and there is room in mint, they will upgrade a passenger just to keep the pilot from getting it.

Says everything about what this company thinks of us.

Um, how much would commuting standby in mint cost the company again? Even the regionals get into first class if there is room.

I've had 11 years to know what the company thinks of all of us, but might this be about AOL pilots? Can't tell from the highlight sheet.

Speedbird2263
06-24-2018, 07:50 PM
Best part of this passes all the non members have to back pay their union dues or quit. Sucks to write that check.

Or continue to be NMs & pay a contract ďservice/maintenanceĒ fee if they donít want to pay back dues & remain employed in the Agency shop.

hilltopflyer
06-25-2018, 04:43 AM
Or continue to be NMs & pay a contract ďservice/maintenanceĒ fee if they donít want to pay back dues & remain employed in the Agency shop.

Dang missed that little part.

capt707
06-25-2018, 04:50 AM
Since the AIP bullet points came out, the biggest issues I heard pilots complain about were the weak COLA increases, no 321 payscale/override and profit sharing. I think if they would have gotten more gains in those 3 areas, this TA would be an easier pass.

Reading the TA Highlights, the scheduling and pairing construction section are pretty good and that's where they got the most gains, but then again, a lot of that stuff is industry standard that other airlines already had in place, we are just so beaten down working under the crap FSM/PEA for so many years that those sections sound amazing now.

The biggest issue for me is the Implementation timeline! There are some absolutely ridiculous timelines. Why does it take until 1/2019 to give the reserves that extra day off? We all know the company is going to take their sweet time to implement that stuff as close as possible to December 2019! That is over a year away!

AYLflyer
06-25-2018, 06:14 AM
After reading the highlights, my thoughts so far are,

Scope is good. Vacation pay and benefits (If I'm interpreting it right) are good compared to our peers, (meaning we can sell back more than just once per year, and we can fly over if we want, unlike others) however I'm still unsure about the distribution. That's something that will need explaining. I want more information on things like effective deductibles compared to others, and I'm not thrilled at our insurance still. I was expecting more gains (i.e lower health care costs). Also, what's with Section 15? Physical standards? If the company doesn't think you're fit they can send you to a doctor? Is that something we have now, or other airlines have? Also, what defines "Fit"? As far as I understand, if you can hold a medical, you are 'fit' for duty.

I'm not happy about implementation dates though. Section 3 and Section 12 don't go into full effect until 12/31/19, and Section 7 (PTO/VACA) until 1/1/2020.


I'll be waiting for the full TA to be published to make any sort of YES/NO decision.

I was very surprised by the 7-5 vote.

11Bravo
06-25-2018, 06:18 AM
Same old awful insurance with very few gains. Looks like we still pay out of the nose for absolute garbage coverage. Thanks NC, if my family has a major medical issue we are still hosed. Way to knock it out of the park on that one!

11Bravo
06-25-2018, 06:20 AM
But hey, if your in the 190 you get a 6.8% raise!!! Awesome

N311JB
06-25-2018, 06:27 AM
yeah 18 months for implementation. No good. Remember when we were supposed to have a "call in well" section with the new FSM that still hasn't been turned on? Thats a 1/3 of the the life of this thing. Especially since guys are scared of sending this thing back and waiting another year. I need to see a 3% increase each year. If we're only gonna take deliveries of 321s, I need an override. A 4 year deal, when other airlines are expiring in 2019. The 50 mil just ins't enough. No change in profit sharing. Those are my hangups. Essentially I feel like I'm just voting for a pay raise

N311JB
06-25-2018, 06:32 AM
After reading the highlights, my thoughts so far are,

Scope is good. Vacation pay and benefits (If I'm interpreting it right) are good compared to our peers, (meaning we can sell back more than just once per year, and we can fly over if we want, unlike others) however I'm still unsure about the distribution. That's something that will need explaining. I want more information on things like effective deductibles compared to others, and I'm not thrilled at our insurance still. I was expecting more gains (i.e lower health care costs). Also, what's with Section 15? Physical standards? If the company doesn't think you're fit they can send you to a doctor? Is that something we have now, or other airlines have? Also, what defines "Fit"? As far as I understand, if you can hold a medical, you are 'fit' for duty.

I'm not happy about implementation dates though. Section 3 and Section 12 don't go into full effect until 12/31/19, and Section 7 (PTO/VACA) until 1/1/2020.


I'll be waiting for the full TA to be published to make any sort of YES/NO decision.

I was very surprised by the 7-5 vote.

I think the "physically fit" might be along the lines of calling in sick. They want some language in there if they ask you to produce a doctors note, it comes out of the company pocket. At other airlines its something along those lines

hilltopflyer
06-25-2018, 06:39 AM
yeah 18 months for implementation. No good. Remember when we were supposed to have a "call in well" section with the new FSM that still hasn't been turned on? Thats a 1/3 of the the life of this thing. Especially since guys are scared of sending this thing back and waiting another year. I need to see a 3% increase each year. If we're only gonna take deliveries of 321s, I need an override. A 4 year deal, when other airlines are expiring in 2019. The 50 mil just ins't enough. No change in profit sharing. Those are my hangups. Essentially I feel like I'm just voting for a pay raise

Remember itís only a 2% raise till the end of the contract. If the company drags out the next negotiation cycle it saves them money. There is a reason united pilots arenít too concerned with getting a contract done on time. They have an automatic 4% raise.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 06:40 AM
yeah 18 months for implementation. No good. Remember when we were supposed to have a "call in well" section with the new FSM that still hasn't been turned on? Thats a 1/3 of the the life of this thing. Especially since guys are scared of sending this thing back and waiting another year. I need to see a 3% increase each year. If we're only gonna take deliveries of 321s, I need an override. A 4 year deal, when other airlines are expiring in 2019. The 50 mil just ins't enough. No change in profit sharing. Those are my hangups. Essentially I feel like I'm just voting for a pay raise

I feel like we are getting a good deal with this TA. Scope and Scheduling especially. The alternate DH is the most important piece that no one has paid any attention to, and it looks fantastic on paper.

That said. I wish insurance, pay increases and implementation were different. However, it's a solid yes for me (once I read the whole thing.)

hilltopflyer
06-25-2018, 06:40 AM
I canít believe they sent this out with the same horrible insurance we already have

PasserOGas
06-25-2018, 06:44 AM
But hey, if your in the 190 you get a 6.8% raise!!! Awesome

-5% with loss of PTO sell back.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 06:45 AM
But hey, if your in the 190 you get a 6.8% raise!!! Awesome

We are held back on that by everyone else's 190 rates. Which really sucks.

I think we will see huge movement toward the bus with the 190 becoming a defacto "JetBlue express" thats on property.

flying320
06-25-2018, 06:50 AM
The vote passed 7-5. That in and of itself is telling.

58% Yes
42% No

Itís going to be an interesting month.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 06:50 AM
I feel like we are getting a good deal with this TA. Scope and Scheduling especially. The alternate DH is the most important piece that no one has paid any attention to, and it looks fantastic on paper.

That said. I wish insurance, pay increases and implementation were different. However, it's a solid yes for me (once I read the whole thing.)

Can you explain the alternate DH section? Little confused on this

MasterOfPuppets
06-25-2018, 06:51 AM
We are held back on that by everyone else's 190 rates. Which really sucks.

You could raise the bar........

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 06:56 AM
Can you explain the alternate DH section? Little confused on this

I haven't read the final language. But my understand is that you can be put on a DH from your home base to your DH city provided you have a JetBlue flight.

For example:

DH JFK-BOS
BOS-SEA
Overnight.
SEA-BOS
DH BOS-JFK

If you lived in MCO, you could elect to be put on a DH from MCO-BOS and BOS-MCO in lieu of your DH to/from Boston to JFK.

It's a very nice touch.

MGMTiswatchingU
06-25-2018, 07:01 AM
I haven't read the final language. But my understand is that you can be put on a DH from your home base to your DH city provided you have a JetBlue flight.

For example:

DH JFK-BOS
JFK-SEA
Overnight.
SEA-BOS
DH BOS-JFK

If you lived in MCO, you could elect to be put on a DH from MCO-BOS and BOS-MCO in lieu of your DH to/from Boston to JFK.

It's a very nice touch.

I think this is really nice to have also. Like a postive space to and/or from work if your duty starts with a DH and/or finishes with a DH

MasterOfPuppets
06-25-2018, 07:06 AM
I haven't read the final language. But my understand is that you can be put on a DH from your home base to your DH city provided you have a JetBlue flight.

For example:

DH JFK-BOS
BOS-SEA
Overnight.
SEA-BOS
DH BOS-JFK

If you lived in MCO, you could elect to be put on a DH from MCO-BOS and BOS-MCO in lieu of your DH to/from Boston to JFK.

It's a very nice touch.

United has this and itís fantastic. As a commuter when I was domestic I would bid for DHs on the start and end of trips just to get the DH home.

Word of caution:

it is difficult to get released from the DH home due to reassignments and they almost never release a reserve with days left to that home DH. Iíve never had a problem on the DH TO work.

Also at UA you are responsible for your own transportation to/from the hotel if the DH begins or ends at a layover point. You will keep the hotel room but not the car.

PasserOGas
06-25-2018, 07:20 AM
We are held back on that by everyone else's 190 rates. Which really sucks.

I think we will see huge movement toward the bus with the 190 becoming a defacto "JetBlue express" thats on property.

We need to look at the 717 and CS 100 rates at other carriers for guidance.

hilltopflyer
06-25-2018, 07:23 AM
We need to look at the 717 and CS 100 rates at other carriers for guidance.

But we are way behind there also...

PasserOGas
06-25-2018, 07:24 AM
I think this is really nice to have also. Like a postive space to and/or from work if your duty starts with a DH and/or finishes with a DH

It is very nice, but it won't apply to that many pairings. Maybe if you are super senior and can bid these it will help. It certainly doesn't make up for all the other sections.

AYLflyer
06-25-2018, 08:14 AM
We are held back on that by everyone else's 190 rates. Which really sucks.

I think we will see huge movement toward the bus with the 190 becoming a defacto "JetBlue express" thats on property.

The 190 in general in the airline world is really held back. It's a 100 seater but it's treated like a 50 seater when it comes to pay for some reason.

I will say though, while I'm disappointed in how the 190s are viewed, I am very happy about scope. I bet every single one of us at one point in time while flying for a regional said we'd gladly fly a CRJ for enough money. Well, I'd rather keep the 'express' flying on property and have slightly under mainline rates if our scope, scheduling and other work rules are on par or better with the industry. Not everything is about having the highest pay rate.


But we are way behind there also...

Why do you say way behind? Delta E195 rates for a 12yr captain are listed at $206/hr. The TA has us at $207.20 on DOS. Not trying to argue, just looking to see if I missed something while going through the comparison guide (Which lists DL/HAL 717 rates). We're definitely behind on CS100/300 rates though.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 08:14 AM
Got it. But if my pairing starts with a DH Iím selfing in position. To each their own. Really doesnít do much. Iíd rather have AA where if you to the jumpseat on a DH they pay you $500

MasterOfPuppets
06-25-2018, 08:21 AM
Got it. But if my pairing starts with a DH Iím selfing in position. To each their own. Really doesnít do much. Iíd rather have AA where if you to the jumpseat on a DH they pay you $500

Would you bump me out of the JS for $500?

N311JB
06-25-2018, 08:35 AM
Would you bump me out of the JS for $500?

Iíd never bump anyone. But Iíd sell my first born for a DH turn

BeatNavy
06-25-2018, 08:36 AM
The 190 in general in the airline world is really held back. It's a 100 seater but it's treated like a 50 seater when it comes to pay for some reason.

I will say though, while I'm disappointed in how the 190s are viewed, I am very happy about scope. I bet every single one of us at one point in time while flying for a regional said we'd gladly fly a CRJ for enough money. Well, I'd rather keep the 'express' flying on property and have slightly under mainline rates if our scope, scheduling and other work rules are on par or better with the industry. Not everything is about having the highest pay rate.




Why do you say way behind? Delta E195 rates for a 12yr captain are listed at $206/hr. The TA has us at $207.20 on DOS. Not trying to argue, just looking to see if I missed something while going through the comparison guide (Which lists DL/HAL 717 rates). We're definitely behind on CS100/300 rates though.

E195s dont exist anywhere else so no one negotiates higher rates for them. Itís wasted negotiating capital. 195E2 holds more and goes farther than a 717. Thatís the plane they have, and thatís the plane they got higher rates for. Wanna argue E190 rates are ok, well fine, I disagree, but I wonít waste too much breath on a fleet thatís going away. But you cannot make a valid argument that a 124-128 seat E195E2, bigger than a CS100 and 717, should pay $40-$50 less than Deltaís 717 and CS100 rates. If we set the bar for this new plane (195E2) this low, we are screwing ourselves.

PasserOGas
06-25-2018, 08:52 AM
The 190 in general in the airline world is really held back. It's a 100 seater but it's treated like a 50 seater when it comes to pay for some reason.

I will say though, while I'm disappointed in how the 190s are viewed, I am very happy about scope. I bet every single one of us at one point in time while flying for a regional said we'd gladly fly a CRJ for enough money. Well, I'd rather keep the 'express' flying on property and have slightly under mainline rates if our scope, scheduling and other work rules are on par or better with the industry. Not everything is about having the highest pay rate.




Why do you say way behind? Delta E195 rates for a 12yr captain are listed at $206/hr. The TA has us at $207.20 on DOS. Not trying to argue, just looking to see if I missed something while going through the comparison guide (Which lists DL/HAL 717 rates). We're definitely behind on CS100/300 rates though.


DAL doesn't fly it. AA pilots spend very little time on it and they are all being sold. We have to compare it with other 100ish seat airplanes and when you do that it becomes clear how poorly it is paid. Then, add 44 seats for the same pay.


From wikipedia:
"The E195-E2 (EMB 190-400) will be extended by three seat rows from the E195 by 2.85 m (9.4 ft), and will accommodate up to 144 seats."


That is 6 short of a current A320, paid like a current E190. :eek:


Great deal for the company.



Um... Vote Yes?? Right Bubs??

MasterOfPuppets
06-25-2018, 09:13 AM
but I won’t waste too much breath on a fleet that’s going away.

United MEC in 2012 was told the 767-300 was going away so guess what they did? they negotiated a few dollars more than the 757/737-900 and put the 767-400 as top WB rate.

Guess what aircraft we still have at UA? Guess what aircraft we are putting winglets on, our new Polaris business class and doing HMVs on? Guess what aircraft we just bought 3 of from Hawaiian? Guess what aircraft we are expected to keep tell mid 2020's?

Good thing we didn't waste our time negating higher pay rates for an aircraft that is going away.

nuball5
06-25-2018, 09:18 AM
We are held back on that by everyone else's 190 rates. Which really sucks.

I think we will see huge movement toward the bus with the 190 becoming a defacto "JetBlue express" thats on property.

Agree on the the market rate for the 190 is what held our rates us back.

Those on the Airbus who are turning a blind eye to the lackluster 190 rates because it doesn't effect you, are in for a surprise when their seniority takes a hit when senior 190 pilots make their move. Low Embraer rates hurts the entire pilot group, not just those flying it.

jetpilot285
06-25-2018, 09:23 AM
If it passes when does the contract go into the effect?

Bozo the pilot
06-25-2018, 09:37 AM
If it passes when does the contract go into the effect?

You can see the implementation sched on ALPA website.
And it will pass on the strength of the Scope/Section 25 (Scheduling) and Retirement.
May not be the landslide the mec hoped for, but the highlights are a needed improvement for most here.
Flame away NOs. :)

dontsurf
06-25-2018, 09:40 AM
i am kind of leaning "no" right now based on implementation of reserve and the pay rates for the giant category of "e190/e2-190/e195/e2-195".

that category covers planes that have a lot of different numbers of seats, and get to be almost as big as an a320, for a lot less pay.

Bozo the pilot
06-25-2018, 09:52 AM
i am kind of leaning "no" right now based on implementation of reserve and the pay rates for the giant category of "e190/e2-190/e195/e2-195".

that category covers planes that have a lot of different numbers of seats, and get to be almost as big as an a320, for a lot less pay.

Do you think that will change in a year when we have something different?
Maybe, but in the meantime, no Scope and work rule improvements.
For those who dont know this: SCOPE=JOB. WORK RULES=QOL.
Did I type that loudly enough?
The pay could be higher and I hate B6 for weaseling out of proper profit sharing, but talk to your reps at the roadshows and see if they think that PS or Health care would ever improve greatly even IF we did vote this down, re-elect another NC/MEC and **** and moan for another year.
Vote your wallet and QOL, not your ego or anger.
Easier said than done for us all I admit.

nuball5
06-25-2018, 10:10 AM
Do you think that will change in a year when we have something different?
Maybe, but in the meantime, no Scope and work rule improvements.
For those who dont know this: SCOPE=JOB. WORK RULES=QOL.
Did I type that loudly enough?
The pay could be higher and I hate B6 for weaseling out of proper profit sharing, but talk to your reps at the roadshows and see if they think that PS or Health care would ever improve greatly even IF we did vote this down, re-elect another NC/MEC and **** and moan for another year.
Vote your wallet and QOL, not your ego or anger.
Easier said than done for us all I admit.

Don't forget the 15% DC retirement plus whatever you decide to contribute, grown at an average interest of 6% we'll say. Then let's say you would save an extra $25,000 towards your retirement under the new agreement. Compound that over a 30 year career.

hilltopflyer
06-25-2018, 10:13 AM
The 190 in general in the airline world is really held back. It's a 100 seater but it's treated like a 50 seater when it comes to pay for some reason.

I will say though, while I'm disappointed in how the 190s are viewed, I am very happy about scope. I bet every single one of us at one point in time while flying for a regional said we'd gladly fly a CRJ for enough money. Well, I'd rather keep the 'express' flying on property and have slightly under mainline rates if our scope, scheduling and other work rules are on par or better with the industry. Not everything is about having the highest pay rate.




Why do you say way behind? Delta E195 rates for a 12yr captain are listed at $206/hr. The TA has us at $207.20 on DOS. Not trying to argue, just looking to see if I missed something while going through the comparison guide (Which lists DL/HAL 717 rates). We're definitely behind on CS100/300 rates though.

The quote you referenced said it should be compared to the c series/717 In which we are way behind.

dogpilot
06-25-2018, 10:26 AM
Do you think that will change in a year when we have something different?
Maybe, but in the meantime, no Scope and work rule improvements.
For those who dont know this: SCOPE=JOB. WORK RULES=QOL.
Did I type that loudly enough?
The pay could be higher and I hate B6 for weaseling out of proper profit sharing, but talk to your reps at the roadshows and see if they think that PS or Health care would ever improve greatly even IF we did vote this down, re-elect another NC/MEC and **** and moan for another year.
Vote your wallet and QOL, not your ego or anger.
Easier said than done for us all I admit.
How much sacrifice to simply put a few dollars in the wallet. I doubt scope would affect you guys in one year. Go for more.

Bluedriver
06-25-2018, 10:27 AM
DAL doesn't fly it. AA pilots spend very little time on it and they are all being sold. We have to compare it with other 100ish seat airplanes and when you do that it becomes clear how poorly it is paid. Then, add 44 seats for the same pay.


From wikipedia:
"The E195-E2 (EMB 190-400) will be extended by three seat rows from the E195 by 2.85 m (9.4 ft), and will accommodate up to 144 seats."


That is 6 short of a current A320, paid like a current E190. :eek:


Great deal for the company.



Um... Vote Yes?? Right Bubs??

The company would never do that...

Bozo the pilot
06-25-2018, 10:38 AM
The company would never do that...

So thats the working theory?
Could happen. Do you actually think it will?
How long will it take?

Bluedriver
06-25-2018, 10:56 AM
So thats the working theory?
Could happen. Do you actually think it will?
How long will it take?

I won't make a final voting decision until near the end of the voting window, but I have to say, you and Bandwagon are quite impressive.

Is the company buying you out of your trips for the next month or do they expect you to do all these posts on your time off?

200Driver
06-25-2018, 11:09 AM
Do you think that will change in a year when we have something different?
Maybe, but in the meantime, no Scope and work rule improvements.
For those who dont know this: SCOPE=JOB. WORK RULES=QOL.
Did I type that loudly enough?
The pay could be higher and I hate B6 for weaseling out of proper profit sharing, but talk to your reps at the roadshows and see if they think that PS or Health care would ever improve greatly even IF we did vote this down, re-elect another NC/MEC and **** and moan for another year.
Vote your wallet and QOL, not your ego or anger.
Easier said than done for us all I admit.

I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.

Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.

Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.

Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.

Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.

Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 11:18 AM
I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.

Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.

Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.

Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.

Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.

Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.


Very well put. Exactly why I'm planning to vote yes (once I read the final language)

RiddleEagle18
06-25-2018, 11:25 AM
Slightly relieved after reading the posts on here today. Honestly Iím leaning yes. Iím am pretty ****ed at the 2% cola and implementation but not sure if itís enough to vote no for me.

However reading over at BP for the last 24 hours and I thought there wasnít any honest evaluation going on. Glad to see a bit of sanity here with rational thought out arguments on the Yes and No sides.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bluedriver
06-25-2018, 11:32 AM
I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.

Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.

Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.

Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.

Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.

Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.

Good post, but we have not achieved Southwest Airlines scope at the top end, which is also very important.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 11:39 AM
The 5 hr trigger over 00:59AM is nice. Could be a good way to make a little extra if you're based in JFK with delays.

And another question The 14hr duty day, is that a hard number even with delays?

Bluedriver
06-25-2018, 11:51 AM
The 5 hr trigger over 00:59AM is nice. Could be a good way to make a little extra if you're based in JFK with delays.

And another question The 14hr duty day, is that a hard number even with delays?

Dear Blue pilots, due to technical difficulties, we will not be switching on the "00:59" rig protections as scheduled. Unfortunately we were not given an estimated time from our business partner and do not have any additional information at this time.

We do however have some good news to report, our business partner was able to finalize coding on our OE pairing removal software and we are pleased to announce that we will be removing 75%, or more, of OE pairings from next months bid package, 3 months earlier than agreed!

Please sign up for a rotation in the T5 vegetable garden for your upcoming *day* off.

Baba Yaga
06-25-2018, 11:56 AM
I won't make a final voting decision until near the end of the voting window, but I have to say, you and Bandwagon are quite impressive.

Is the company buying you out of your trips for the next month or do they expect you to do all these posts on your time off?

Stop it, I had Diet Coke coming out of my nose.

BunkerF16
06-25-2018, 11:56 AM
Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow.




Summarize that entire post:


It's better than what we have now. We'll really get em next time.

pilotpayne
06-25-2018, 12:38 PM
I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.

Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.

Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.

Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.

Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.

Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.


Man I could not agree more.
Well put.

PasserOGas
06-25-2018, 12:41 PM
I don't post on here often and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. With that being said this is how I see it with the current information we have been provided.

Our current "PEA" provides no protection or barrier from this dreadfully fluid industry. The current TA information is not perfect, nor do certain sections meet my expectations, mainly Profit Sharing and Health Insurance. Many sections were also simply brought up to the industry average, not the end of the world and I hope to see improvements there during our next negotiation period.

Scope can be very easy to dismiss as "it won't affect us anytime soon" or "we aren't large enough yet" etc. Ask the pilots furloughed after
9-11 how quickly scope crept up on them. Anyone flying or furloughed during that time understands that if ALL legacies held ironclad scope most of us would be at DAL, UAL, or American right now. Also, the over 10,000 pilots furloughed industry-wide would have been back on the property much sooner, negating at least some portion of the devasting affects those years had on their families and careers. Scope is your job, there is a reason SWA holds onto scope so tightly and for the same reasons why we should take a hard look at our own when considering our vote.

Work Rules - Talk with a pilot who has been through furlough, concessions, bankruptcy etc. Ask that pilot what goes first, money or work rules. Companies always go after wages and retirement first when seeking concessions. The work rules are the only thing left that maintain a semblance of QOL. Talk with an American pilot about giving up work rules for pay, if you think we are going to achieve better rates by going back to the table and not giving up anything you may want to talk with some of your more experienced compadres. Work rules can also be the toughest to negotiate due to the company understanding how hard it is to get work rules back; I applaud our NC for this big win in my opinion.

Codified STD, LTD, Sick Bank Cashout at Retirement, 15% DC etc. - Codifying these items provides a tremendous amount of protection for you and your family. Ask any one of the thousands of pilots out on disability. Currently, these items can be taken away from us at the first sign of economic problems, codifying provides a significant amount of protection for you and your loved ones.

Putting SWA level Scope and industry-leading work rules in place today gives us a very solid platform from which to negotiate from tomorrow. Add codifying many of our already solid sections that protect income loss and retirement it is very tough to tell my family, we will be okay don't worry, I am voting No. With that being said I still need to read the final language, attend a roadshow and make sure I am making the best possible decision for my family.

1. Scope: This is not SWA scope. Ha will still be flying 321's to Honolulu on our code. We will be feeding everyone else's wide bodies. This continues and expands as long as we are "growing". A growth rate of .001% will be sufficient. Never mind we could be growing 15% without it.

Oh, but if we stop growing we can claw it all back. Riiiight. :rolleyes: because when the company is falling on hard times it will be a cake walk to eliminate highly profitable code shares. Scope is weak.

2. Work rules: Yes there are some improvements, but there are also concessions. Reserve was touted as "going senior its so good!" Yea, it will go senior because those are the only guys getting LCR. For everyone else it's pretty much the same. 17 days in a crash pad. Someone will fly those redeye turns fellas.

Still doing post flights.

Still cleaning while standby.

No jumps seating or allowing OAL in mint.

No crew meals on transcons.

Pairing construction? Unstacking? I guess these are improvements but I do not see how they are large ones. The way I read it the pairings honestly won't change much.


The company can make you go to the doctor if sick? Isn't that one of the reasons DAL voted theirs down? Along with IOE trips (which we also give up).

OH, and let's not forget the big one. BINDING ARBITRATION FOR NEW AIRCRAFT. Huge huge huge giveaway.

3. Pay: *sigh*

Kick in the nuts. When you account for the loss of PTO sell back this area ranges from 1%-10% increase. We will be near the bottom. We have talked at length about how bad the rates are. Where are those amazing work rules that were gong to make up for us dragging the industry down? I'm still waiting.

Mattio
06-25-2018, 12:44 PM
Anyone know why the TA is still not available for viewing? You'd think they'd already have an electronic document that they could put up at this stage...

200Driver
06-25-2018, 01:29 PM
Summarize that entire post:


It's better than what we have now. We'll really get em next time.

Yeah thatís a solid point. DAL, UAL, SWA, American etc. all revolutionized the industry with industry topping contracts out of the gate with their first TAís. All the negoations since have just been a formality.

AYLflyer
06-25-2018, 02:13 PM
It's up live on the b6 site. Got a lot of reading to do over the next couple days.

I hate to complain already, but the road show schedule seems extremely limited. BOS/JFK all during the week of the 4th? I mean unless you're senior I doubt many guys have the 4th and the surrounding days off.

symbian simian
06-25-2018, 02:15 PM
United has this and itís fantastic. As a commuter when I was domestic I would bid for DHs on the start and end of trips just to get the DH home.

Word of caution:

it is difficult to get released from the DH home due to reassignments and they almost never release a reserve with days left to that home DH. Iíve never had a problem on the DH TO work.

Also at UA you are responsible for your own transportation to/from the hotel if the DH begins or ends at a layover point. You will keep the hotel room but not the car.

Spirit will book positive space on own flights from domicile instead of DH from base giving you protection from the loss of jumpseat policy. At the end of last duty period they have to reassign you a specific FDP or release you from the DH to base.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 02:20 PM
Agree with POG, no one is talking about the HAL flying. Sorry but thats not industry leading scope. Our pairings should look like: LAS-LGB-HNL-LGB.

symbian simian
06-25-2018, 02:21 PM
DAL doesn't fly it. AA pilots spend very little time on it and they are all being sold. We have to compare it with other 100ish seat airplanes and when you do that it becomes clear how poorly it is paid. Then, add 44 seats for the same pay.


From wikipedia:
"The E195-E2 (EMB 190-400) will be extended by three seat rows from the E195 by 2.85 m (9.4 ft), and will accommodate up to 144 seats."


That is 6 short of a current A320, paid like a current E190. :eek:


Great deal for the company.



Um... Vote Yes?? Right Bubs??

No dog in this fight but it isn't short 6 of a current A320. The 144 seats should be compared to the max 180 on CEO A320, so 36 seats difference. This is important because you don't want your 150 seat A320 compared with our economy only A319. It isn't just the seats, revenue counts!

Bozo the pilot
06-25-2018, 03:03 PM
It's up live on the b6 site. Got a lot of reading to do over the next couple days.

I hate to complain already, but the road show schedule seems extremely limited. BOS/JFK all during the week of the 4th? I mean unless you're senior I doubt many guys have the 4th and the surrounding days off.

Yea but those are the NO voters:D

embraerjetpilot
06-25-2018, 03:10 PM
The more I read, the more the answer has to be no.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 04:05 PM
Maybe I'm having a brain aneurysm, but I like this CBA.

Scheduling is industry leading. Better than "the big 3." Scope is very good. Insurance is "meh" and the implementation LOA is disappointing.

Fyi. To all you FL guys who commute to JFK/BOS they have global opentime. For those that don't, there are good protections to make sure the in base folks have first dibs. This is a huge selling point (especially to FL folks)

hyperboy
06-25-2018, 04:07 PM
The more I read, the more the answer has to be no.


Congrats that your reading it. Then you get your one vote like everybody else. Thanks for letting us know?

dontsurf
06-25-2018, 04:11 PM
so let's talk scope. for the people saying that swa scope is better, and i am sure it is, explain how it is better please. i am trying to understand it. i read the scope section of our ta, and seems really good. i am just trying to understand how it could be better.

and if the only way it could be better is because of how we have codeshares now, then i can see how that is the part that is missing. but if there is something beyond that, i am not seeing it.

are there any other ways in which our ta's scope could be better? thanks for any input.

dontsurf
06-25-2018, 04:14 PM
here's another question: system bid. why is it better to have only one system bid per year, instead of the way we do it now, with 4 of them per year? i assume it is better, or it wouldn't be changed.

expectholding
06-25-2018, 04:15 PM
here's another question: system bid. why is it better to have only one system bid per year, instead of the way we do it now, with 4 of them per year? i assume it is better, or it wouldn't be changed.

could just be neutral...

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 04:17 PM
1. Scope: This is not SWA scope. Ha will still be flying 321's to Honolulu on our code. We will be feeding everyone else's wide bodies. This continues and expands as long as we are "growing". A growth rate of .001% will be sufficient. Never mind we could be growing 15% without it.

Oh, but if we stop growing we can claw it all back. Riiiight. :rolleyes: because when the company is falling on hard times it will be a cake walk to eliminate highly profitable code shares. Scope is weak.

2. Work rules: Yes there are some improvements, but there are also concessions. Reserve was touted as "going senior its so good!" Yea, it will go senior because those are the only guys getting LCR. For everyone else it's pretty much the same. 17 days in a crash pad. Someone will fly those redeye turns fellas.

Still doing post flights.

Still cleaning while standby.

No jumps seating or allowing OAL in mint.

No crew meals on transcons.

Pairing construction? Unstacking? I guess these are improvements but I do not see how they are large ones. The way I read it the pairings honestly won't change much.


The company can make you go to the doctor if sick? Isn't that one of the reasons DAL voted theirs down? Along with IOE trips (which we also give up).

OH, and let's not forget the big one. BINDING ARBITRATION FOR NEW AIRCRAFT. Huge huge huge giveaway.

3. Pay: *sigh*

Kick in the nuts. When you account for the loss of PTO sell back this area ranges from 1%-10% increase. We will be near the bottom. We have talked at length about how bad the rates are. Where are those amazing work rules that were gong to make up for us dragging the industry down? I'm still waiting.

Dude. Relax. You are a no vote. Got it.

You are the angriest dude on this forum. Still haven't forgotten that you called us all,"wannabe scabs a few weeks ago."

Why the anger? We see the world differently. That's cool.

Anyway, you do have some valid points, and reasonable people can vote either way on this T/A but your statements seem more dramatic than a lifetime movie.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 04:21 PM
so let's talk scope. for the people saying that swa scope is better, and i am sure it is, explain how it is better please. i am trying to understand it. i read the scope section of our ta, and seems really good. i am just trying to understand how it could be better.

and if the only way it could be better is because of how we have codeshares now, then i can see how that is the part that is missing. but if there is something beyond that, i am not seeing it.

are there any other ways in which our ta's scope could be better? thanks for any input.

The "no JetBlue express" is the important part of our code share section (and the contract in my opinion).

While international codeshare aren't addressed, we don't have to worry about our flying farmed out to regionals. We also don't have to worry about Jetblue becoming a holding company.and the flying farmed out.

expectholding
06-25-2018, 04:24 PM
so let's talk scope. for the people saying that swa scope is better, and i am sure it is, explain how it is better please. i am trying to understand it. i read the scope section of our ta, and seems really good. i am just trying to understand how it could be better.

and if the only way it could be better is because of how we have codeshares now, then i can see how that is the part that is missing. but if there is something beyond that, i am not seeing it.

are there any other ways in which our ta's scope could be better? thanks for any input.

dude...skywest has 100 175-e2's on order, that are to heavy to fly @ the legacies, and we eliminated capacity purchase agreements. HUGE.

key words in codeshare language, without growing in terms of block hours AND pilots, they cant enter into, amend, OR renew the agreements. They amend these agreements almost annually. this hamstrings them big time for codeshares if we become stagnant. Outside of SWA codeshare, I dont think anyone has anything like this.

Bozo the pilot
06-25-2018, 04:37 PM
Dude. Relax. You are a no vote. Got it.

You are the angriest dude on this forum. Still haven't forgotten that you called us all,"wannabe scabs a few weeks ago."

Why the anger? We see the world differently. That's cool.

Anyway, you do have some valid points, and reasonable people can vote either way on this T/A but your statements seem more dramatic than a lifetime movie.

He's not alone, the auto-NOs are seething. Tough to have an open mind or trust anyone when afflicted.
Im looking over scope, just finished Scheduling. I have some questions obviously, but looks good.
Scope has to be perfect to overcome the appearance of mediocrity.
The pay is actually better, now that Ive looked at pairing construction.

queue
06-25-2018, 05:04 PM
Why is section 1 selling us out to BINDING ARBITRATION? Arbitration is a horrible thing. It replaces our ability to use the court systems with a kangaroo court of paid off people (remember 3A - we "won" but company paid off arbitrators nullified the determination - we got screwed). NEVER NEVER NEVER agree to arbitration!


. Remedies
Any and all disputes concerning alleged violation of Section 1 not resolved by conference
shall be resolved by final and binding arbitration. The Company and the Association
specifically agree to arbitrate any grievance filed by the Association or the Company
alleging a violation of Section 1 (including an announced transaction that has not yet
become effective) on an expedited basis directly before the System Board of Adjustment
sitting with a neutral member, as the arbitration forum. The dispute shall be heard no later
than thirty (30) days following the filing of the dispute with the System Board and
decided no later than sixty (60) days after such filing, unless the parties agree otherwise
in writing. Upon written request the Company will provide, subject to confidentiality
agreements, documents relevant to the issue being arbitrated.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 05:05 PM
The pay is actually better, now that Ive looked at pairing construction.


But well below where it should be, unless you jump all over RSAs and other "work harder" incentives. The pay rates might allow the juicers and 120%'ers to make almost SWA pay.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 05:10 PM
Iíve been a No vote from the get go. Profit sharing, COLA, and 4 years are my big pitfalls. Iím seething at all. I can totally understand if it passes and if it does I totally can swallow it. Looking over at the Spirit thread, weíre looking pretty good. Itís why Iíve never been in BP. Iím actually happy 90% on here can talk about this thing in a civilized manner.
Saw something about global open time, does this mean we can pick up trips in any base?
And did we figure out the 50 million formula? Max at 12 years but is there a percentage per month?

expectholding
06-25-2018, 05:12 PM
Why is section 1 selling us out to BINDING ARBITRATION? Arbitration is a horrible thing. It replaces our ability to use the court systems with a kangaroo court of paid off people (remember 3A - we "won" but company paid off arbitrators nullified the determination - we got screwed). NEVER NEVER NEVER agree to arbitration!




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I think all cba grievances are resolved via the arbitration process, no?. standard legal sh^t? good question

queue
06-25-2018, 05:14 PM
Section 2 - definitions


Positive Contact: When a Pilot and Crew Services speak on a recorded line or when
two-way communication occurs between a Pilot and Crew Services via JETCRW.


Needs to be amended exclude leaving voicemail or other passive, non-interactive mechanisms. Two way communication through JETCRW is not explicitly defined. There is no way to determine if it is the intended pilot pressing buttons on the iPad (unless they spy on you by taking your picture using the device's camera). This is a legal Trojan horse for BJ. Positive Contact must NOT be defined as "positive contact". It needs a new term such as "Acknowledged Notifications" with a lower burden of compliance.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
06-25-2018, 05:18 PM
Iíve been a No vote from the get go. Profit sharing, COLA, and 4 years are my big pitfalls. Iím seething at all. I can totally understand if it passes and if it does I totally can swallow it. Looking over at the Spirit thread, weíre looking pretty good. Itís why Iíve never been in BP. Iím actually happy 90% on here can talk about this thing in a civilized manner.
Saw something about global open time, does this mean we can pick up trips in any base?
And did we figure out the 50 million formula? Max at 12 years but is there a percentage per month?
I like this post- I totally get your sticking points 311. Mine are just different thus my tendency to like the TA so far.
Id like to know how you feel COLA and profit sharing trump the QOL/retirement and Scope/Codesharing protections though.
No snark, serious question.
And Im not letting the formula for a 1 time payout influence my vote at all. Other stuff is too important imo.

queue
06-25-2018, 05:25 PM
G. Hotel Guidelines
Items used to determine suitability of a hotel should include, but are not limited to:
1. Safety/Security
a. The Company shall make every effort to select hotels in safe neighborhoods
and areas, with suitable hotel security features that meet or exceed
BlueWatchís current minimum standards.
b. Interior access rooms domestically (internationally as well - unless not an
option given the location).
c. No rooms on the first floor domestically (internationally as well - unless not
an option given the location).
2. Standards
a. Clean, comfortable, non-smoking, quiet rooms away from elevators,
stairwells, and ice or vending machines.
b. Room must contain the following accessories:



I'm just jumping around... but the legal language is vague, unenforceable, and open to interpretation, which is BAD.


For example, it shouldn't say "Hotel Guidelines". It should say "Hotel Requirements" and be followed with a first sentence text saying "The following items must be assured by the company unless there is a mutual agreed upon exception made by BJ and the B6ALPA hotel committee, through 85%+ member ratification."



By saying "Items used to determine suitability of a hotel should include, but are not limited to:", doesn't prevent them from giving you a roach motel since they are not written as "requirements" but rather by "considerations". To make it worse, it says *should*. So this entire section might as not well exist since it contains the "should" legal loophole and vital missing verbiage.


This TA is garbage. It was written by people who have never read a real contract before. So much for ALPA lawyers. BJ's lawyers managed to only gain further retainer for themselves and for ALPA lawyers by putting in tons of loopholes to keep them employed.



I'm voting NO.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

dontsurf
06-25-2018, 05:26 PM
And did we figure out the 50 million formula? Max at 12 years but is there a percentage per month?

we'd have to know how many pilots they are counting and how many months each of those pilots have been here (capped at 144). take all the pilots times all the months, then take your number of months you have been here (capped at 144) and divide by that big number (which is unknown), and then multiply that number by $50,000,000.

or maybe $44,000,000 at first? because it talks about holding back 12% of the bonus for lawsuits and such, and i assume we'd get that part later?

queue
06-25-2018, 05:30 PM
I think all cba grievances are resolved via the arbitration process, no?. standard legal sh^t? good question


No.. that is a false assumption and a common false narrative. You *never* have to agree to arbitration.

Arbitration is what companies are doing nowadays in order to trick customers/employees from having a court find the company guilty. It is basically a way to take away your ability to take things to a real court.

It has become standard because people don't care to or know how to read the legal fine print. But, standard doesn't make it something acceptable. It was once standard NOT to have arbitration agreements, but big corporations have consistently screwed customers and employees.

Read this: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/supreme-courts-ruling-this-week-is-already-screwing-thousands-of-chipotle-workers_us_5b0844aae4b0568a880b3e26

No one can force you to work somewhere that has binding arbitration. We don't have to agree to a contract that enforces mandatory arbitration. It's only "mandatory" if we agree to it in the first place. This is how the 3A disaster happened in the first place. We need the right to take grievances to court via lawsuit in the event of a violation, not some kangaroo court paid for by BJ.


This TA is far worse than I thought.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 05:41 PM
I like this post- I totally get your sticking points 311. Mine are just different thus my tendency to like the TA so far.
Id like to know how you feel COLA and profit sharing trump the QOL/retirement and Scope/Codesharing protections though.
No snark, serious question.
And Im not letting the formula for a 1 time payout influence my vote at all. Other stuff is too important imo.

I actually get excited about the QOL stuff. There’s some really good stuff in there, hence why I can easily swallow it The best part of this job is time off and flexibility. Codesharing is number 1 but as I mentioned in a way back post I don’t see B6 outsourcing it’s brand. It’s the one thing they can still control. The 1 time payout doesn’t sway me either. Just trying to gather numbers
As for COLA & Profit, I feel like those set a precedent on the rest of the career. Profit sharing is the toughest to get back. But as lame as it sounds, I think most of us want to help out, go above and beyond. Kinda of pride thing. With Profit sharing the way it is, it’s our last piece of the pie to keep those greedy a**holes in check so the Bonnies of the world don’t have free reign. And the COLA, it’s just principle. You’re blatantly saying we don’t want to pay you enough to keep up with inflation. And I’d like to see an expiration cliff then. An Auto 2% raise each year after contract expires.
And I thinks it even better for the junior guys which I’ve considered. I do have to plead ignorance for the 190 guys. I’m not sure if they’re getting bent over

dontsurf
06-25-2018, 05:43 PM
An Auto 2% raise each year after contract expires

i was really really surprised to not see that in there. isn't that pretty normal to have?

N311JB
06-25-2018, 05:47 PM
i was really really surprised to not see that in there. isn't that pretty normal to have?
I didnít see it either. But thereís a lot to read

N311JB
06-25-2018, 05:54 PM
And one other thing that doesn’t sit with me is the 321 override. It may not seem like much but who’s to stop them from making us an entire 321 fleet in 5 years. That’s equivalent of circumventing scope to me. For every 3 321s that come on property that’s 1 less 320. 1 less island turn or transcon to bid That’s less pilots, less movement. I equiviate that aircraft to a 757

queue
06-25-2018, 06:06 PM
Wow, this poop-pile gets worse and worse...


Pilots utilizing OAL to commute:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to
verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing
satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were
scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a
commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the
purpose of this Section).
b. Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies
this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of
the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on
days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by
the Pilot.
Clauses C,D, and E are subject to interpretation (bad). There must be a definition of "taken into consideration" such as "a Pilot is solely authorized to determine and define what adequate considerations are, not subject to questioning by the Company. If a pilot believes he has made adequate considerations, then such considerations have been made and are not questionable by the Company." Otherwise, this allows BJ or an arbitrator (since it's mentioned elsewhere) to determine if a consideration was made. Basically, we lose the power.



Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
Again, consideration must be whatever the pilot considers adequate, not by BJ interpretation.

d. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
And if you think it takes you 20 minutes, the company can come back and say that "adequate time" is 1 hour. You're screwed.

3. The Pilot shall contact Crew Services as soon as possible when he has determined that he will not make his show time.
And when does this point start at? The beginning of the call or when/if you get "positive contact" with an actual Crew Services person? We all know you can be on hold for an hour or more, particularly when the connection drops. Also, by the time you're finished being on hold, now your notification to CS will occur INSIDE the 3 HR period turning a simple Unable to Commute into a Missed Trip. There is so much missing in this language...

b. Nothing herein shall prevent Crew Services and the Pilot from mutually agreeing on another assignment (pay will be in accordance with Section 3 Ė Compensation).
This is very dangerous language. It NEEDS to include verbiage such as "a Pilot is never required to mutually agree upon an assignment and no addition burden (e.g. safety report, e-mail to chief pilot, irregularity report, etc.) shall be required of the Pilot to explain why the Pilot does not want to mutually agree to another assignment. A Pilot may not be held liable to any disciplinary process or as the subject of evidence to be used in a disciplinary process if he does not mutually agree to an assignment." Example of how you can get screwed.... right now if you don't extend an additional 2 hrs, they are forcing you to write a fatigue report OR you are subject to disciplinary action. In other words, they are opening the door to attaching informal retribution or punishment to not agreeing to another assignment.

B. Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be
subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-
commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss
patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by
identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting
Pilotís overall dependability.


Commuting Strategy? So the TITLE already starts with an invisible line since it's a "strategy".
"A Chief Pilot may discuss patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies." Needs to include a clause "However, this meeting may not be recorded in any fashion to be used as evidence for disciplinary processes or consideration for future job assignment (e.g. to become a Check Airman). A pilot reporting for such a meeting must be paid at least 4 hrs of duty time and may utilize Positive Space commuting at the sole discretion of the pilot. The Chief Pilot may not dictate a timeline for the meeting and shall make himself available to the Pilot for the Pilot's scheduling convenience. "
"Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting Pilotís overall dependability." Ahh yes... so this legalizes the completely arbitrarily interpreted and enforced infamous Dependability Policy. This is a HORRIBLE contract. It outsources terms and conditions to other BJ documents they can rewrite at any time. It's a contract version of the FOM and Blue Book.

I could've written something better in my sleep! Seriously boys and girls... if something isn't explicitly written out in the contract, it gives BJ free reign to do whatever they want. In many cases, as presented above, it legalizes processes that are entirely BJ defined/re-defined whenever they want. Unequal justice.

No wonder apologists/defeatists like Bozo had to block me! They wanted to hide this kind of stuff. Either they work for BJ to get you to accept this garbage OR they are too vested in the process to see further work being done on this contract. There is so much in here that could easily screw us. It's almost as if BJ wrote this thing!

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

RiddleEagle18
06-25-2018, 06:10 PM
here's another question: system bid. why is it better to have only one system bid per year, instead of the way we do it now, with 4 of them per year? i assume it is better, or it wouldn't be changed.



Protects vacation.

System bid happens before vacations bid. You bid vacation in your awarded category.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

queue
06-25-2018, 06:11 PM
And one other thing that doesnít sit with me is the 321 override. It may not seem like much but whoís to stop them from making us an entire 321 fleet in 5 years. Thatís equivalent of circumventing scope to me. For every 3 321s that come on property thatís 1 less 320. 1 less island turn or transcon to bid Thatís less pilots, less movement. I equiviate that aircraft to a 757


Plus it benefits only people who have the seniority to exploit it. 60% of the pilot group won't be able to bid for 321s so you'll be stuck with peasant pay rates. This is one of the reasons I kept saying the AIP pay rates were unacceptable.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

N311JB
06-25-2018, 06:15 PM
And everyone on here, I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote No. And most of us are stuck here and trying to make it the best place possible, but ask yourselves if there's anything in this TA that's the envy of the industry. Is some guy/gal over at DAL/AA/UAL, be like "oh sh*t, you see what B6 got, I wish we had that"
Juvenile and unrealistic, probably, but can we lead in something besides being late.
If you can answer Yes, be it scope or scheduling, I understand and support the Yes vote, and won't complain if it passes. Except maybe when I hear a DAL captain taking home 70k on profit sharing

N311JB
06-25-2018, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=queue;2621963]Plus it benefits only people who have the seniority to exploit it. 60% of the pilot group won't be able to bid for 321s so you'll be stuck with peasant pay rates. This is one of the reasons I kept saying the AIP pay rates were unacceptable.


Thats fine, seniority is seniority. I just want to keep mgmt in check from exploiting a loophole

queue
06-25-2018, 06:21 PM
[QUOTE=queue;2621963]Plus it benefits only people who have the seniority to exploit it. 60% of the pilot group won't be able to bid for 321s so you'll be stuck with peasant pay rates. This is one of the reasons I kept saying the AIP pay rates were unacceptable.


Thats fine, seniority is seniority. I just want to keep mgmt in check from exploiting a loophole


I'll concede on the benefit to seniority. I don't want it but ok.


I'm just glad you don't want loopholes. This TA is horrible. Literally every paragraph has loopholes.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 06:24 PM
And everyone on here, I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote No. And most of us are stuck here and trying to make it the best place possible, but ask yourselves if there's anything in this TA that's the envy of the industry. Is some guy/gal over at DAL/AA/UAL, be like "oh sh*t, you see what B6 got, I wish we had that"
Juvenile and unrealistic, probably, but can we lead in something besides being late.
If you can answer Yes, be it scope or scheduling, I understand and support the Yes vote, and won't complain if it passes. Except maybe when I hear a DAL captain taking home 70k on profit sharing


It's everything I've been saying all along :-)


Well, it's our fault. If this turd gets voted Yes, and if there's no resistance to this TA, then it's really our fault. We got played... we got played bad.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

11Bravo
06-25-2018, 06:27 PM
We get an ďEat up BoxĒ if our flight exceeds 3.5 hours! Outstanding... #Keepsgettingbetter! High five

queue
06-25-2018, 06:36 PM
A Non-Probationary Pilot will not be disciplined without just cause. Disciplinary action, including, but not limited to, discharge, disciplinary time off, with or without pay, and/or benefits, demotion, or a letter of warning (i.e. Progressive Guidance) will not be imposed until the Company first conducts an impartial, reasonable, and expeditious investigation of the alleged cause.


And how is this possible? This is legally allows the company to use the he-said/she-said kangaroo court of HR to paint whatever narrative they want. The "investigation" should have the ability to be nullified in its entirety if the Pilot or ALPA claims it is incorrect.


Furthermore, there are more vague terms:


Impartial : defined as? Who is doing the investigation? Someone on BJ's payroll? HR? An ALPA member? An ALPA lawyer?
Reasonable: defined as? Everyone has different definitions of reasonable.
Expeditious: oh yeah? so how many days?

This is full of loopholes and language for the company to exploit.


So guys like Bozo (who forced himself to ignore my posts so he can retreat to his "safe space") said I should wait to read the TA. Well, I have. It's worse than I could've imagined.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

11Bravo
06-25-2018, 06:38 PM
Iíd rather have a 20 year old MRE... at least we get a 2% Cola every year!

nuball5
06-25-2018, 06:42 PM
And everyone on here, I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote No. And most of us are stuck here and trying to make it the best place possible, but ask yourselves if there's anything in this TA that's the envy of the industry. Is some guy/gal over at DAL/AA/UAL, be like "oh sh*t, you see what B6 got, I wish we had that"
Juvenile and unrealistic, probably, but can we lead in something besides being late.
If you can answer Yes, be it scope or scheduling, I understand and support the Yes vote, and won't complain if it passes. Except maybe when I hear a DAL captain taking home 70k on profit sharing

The MEC's goal was to present a Market Rate contract not to make other SWA or United jealous of us. If you look at the contract comparison guide, we are in the ballpark with our peers....some areas better than others, implementation aside.

queue
06-25-2018, 06:46 PM
The Company is not required to consider Maintenance Ferry Flights and new aircraft delivery Flight Segments as Known Flying.


So MX ferry flights and new airplane deliveries are still done with non-union pilots?


Didn't Delta just get in trouble for accepting their first A350 using non-union pilots? Looks like our language doesn't even prevent them from outsourcing it. So much for the TA...



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 06:47 PM
I don't see any language prohibiting Pilots and their best friends in CS from giving them advanced knowledge of trips not yet in open time....


The scam continues....



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 06:54 PM
O. Pass Travel
Pass Travel administration utilizing MyIDTravel (or the equivalent) shall be provided free of charge to all Pilots eligible for travel benefits, regardless of their status (retired, furloughed, on LOA, etc.), so long as it is provided free of charge to any other crewmember (including executive leadership).


So what stops Joanna from forcing you to sign another contract forcing you to clean toilets? Ready to help push wheelchairs?



There is no language preventing BJ from assigning you to do non-pilot duties as a condition of using pass-riding privileges.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 06:56 PM
The MEC's goal was to present a Market Rate contract not to make other SWA or United jealous of us. If you look at the contract comparison guide, we are in the ballpark with our peers....some areas better than others, implementation aside.


"Our peers" is a false argument based on an arbitrary framework.


There is nothing stopping us or BJ from agreeing to Delta++ everything. I say that only to unconstrain your artificially constrained expectations. The problem is that the MEC's goal was too low.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hilltopflyer
06-25-2018, 07:04 PM
So what stops Joanna from forcing you to sign another contract forcing you to clean toilets? Ready to help push wheelchairs?



There is no language preventing BJ from assigning you to do non-pilot duties as a condition of using pass-riding privileges.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

There is a lot preventing her... a nice email to a labor attorney would solve a lot. Or if my duty started an hour before I was suppose to start duty. That would sure suck to time out early.

11Bravo
06-25-2018, 07:04 PM
Look on the bright side, if we get the E195 we can be the Mesa of Majors! #5 place

queue
06-25-2018, 07:08 PM
A Duty Period is defined as follows:
1. A Duty Period begins with the earlier of:
a. report time;
b. beginning of a Reserve Availability Period (RAP)
2. A Duty Period ends at the later of:
a. fifteen (15) minutes after the actual block in of the final Flight Segment or
Deadhead;
b. thirty (30) minutes after the actual block in of the final Flight Segment on
an augmented flight;
c. fifteen (15) minutes after scheduled arrival of a Deadhead in the case of a
Self-Deadhead;
d. the end of a Reserve Availability Period (RAP);
e. fifteen (15) minutes after scheduled arrival of LIMO.


This need to include the following:


"f. Any Pilot performing any functions that benefit the company (such as, but not limited to, cabin cleaning) shall have his duty period begin at the initiation of that duty, converted into the local time zone of pairing initiation."



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:15 PM
D. Rest
1. Minimum rest time shall be ten (10) hours, except as provided below.
2. A Pilot shall have eleven (11) hours of rest in accordance with the following (this
provision is not applicable to Same Day Pairings):
a. prior to reporting for a Duty Period in which a Segment is scheduled to
touch the Redeye Period;
b. after completing a Duty Period in which a Segment touched the Redeye
Period.


Needs to also say:


"1.a. The minimum rest period will begin at the time the crewmember arrives in his hotel room. Delays from travel, complications from check-in procedures, or dis-satisfactory rooms shall not infringe upon 10 hours of rest."


So it would be smart for the company to make sure that you're not waiting 2 hrs from a shuttle and to always add 30 minutes to allow for room assignment issues.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:17 PM
There is a lot preventing her... a nice email to a labor attorney would solve a lot. Or if my duty started an hour before I was suppose to start duty. That would sure suck to time out early.


So why not have it in a contract?



Besides, I'm not even sure this contract allows you to take it to court. There are so many references to grievances and arbitration in this TA that it may just be another 3A.


Your argument places the burden of remedy completely on the pilot.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:22 PM
C. Bereavement and Emergency Leaves
1. Bereavement Leave: In the event of death, serious illness or injury of a member of
a Pilot's immediate family, a Pilot shall be granted five (5) consecutive days free
of duty. The Pilot shall be compensated by the Company for the value of Pairings
or RSV days missed during the five (5) consecutive days. An unpaid extension
may be granted with the approval of the Chief Pilot, however, PTO may be
utilized. Immediate family member is defined as the Pilot's spouse, child,
stepchild, parent, stepparent, sibling, grandparent, great grandparent, grandchild
or great grandchild. The Pilot's spouse or registered domestic partner's parent,
sibling, grandparent or great grandparents are included. The Pilot's relatives by
adoption, legal dependents, custodial relatives, and registered domestic partners
and their children are also included in this definition.
2. Emergency Leave: For circumstances not covered by the paragraph above,
PTO/UTO may be utilized for serious situations with the approval of the Chief
Pilot.


Emergencies were explicitly said to count against you under the existing Dependability Policy (read the list of things that count against you in the DP text).



This TA makes things even worse by legitimizing the arbitrarily defined and enforced Dependability Policy. It outsources the flowchart to the DP.



So even Emergency Leave can still count against you?


Remember, if it's not explicitly defined, it's a bad contract.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Alterbridge
06-25-2018, 07:29 PM
Genuine, non-inflammatory hypothetical, Queue:

Should there be some sort of recall of the NC or even at an executive level, why wouldn't you take your passionate crusade of bettering the profession to that same, recalled level? You've said you could write things better than, what I assume to be, full time ALPA attorneys versed in labor law.

Well, why wouldn't you?

Though I'm anticipating the "management troll" replies from the others, I'm just looking for an answer to the question.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:30 PM
A. Determination of Medical Fitness
1. If the Company has reasonable cause to question whether a Pilot meets the
required medical standards, it may require a Pilot to submit to a medical
examination in addition to those required by the FAA. The examination may be
by a Company designated medical examiner, and the Pilot shall be furnished with
a copy of the medical examinerís report. The cost of the Company required
examination shall be paid by the Company.


3. Should the Companyís medical examiner determine that the Pilot is unable to
meet the required medical standards, the Pilot shall cease being pay protected and
may apply for disability benefits.


Why are we giving the company the authority to force you to take an unnecessary medical examination? Define "reasonable cause". If the FAA gives you a first class qualification, then it should stop there. This is ripe for abuse through medical tyranny. If you get on their bad side, they can "suspect" you of drinking or emotional problems and use this language to coerce or intimidate you. This also empowers the company's medical examiner. Remember, that guy is always on the company's payroll. He's not on your side. You could have one false EKG and you're done for.


This alone should send a strong NO vote by every lanyard wearer.


How did this garbage even get to us!!!???



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:39 PM
C. Reports and Findings
Medical records and other information obtained as a result of a Company-required
medical examination or subsequent examinations pursuant to Section 15.B., shall be
subject to safeguards as to their confidentiality. Such information shall be available only
to such personnel as are directly responsible for Pilot medical qualification evaluation,
supervision and record keeping.


More weak language. Firstly, we shouldn't agree to any company initiated examinations.


Secondly, there need be explicit definitions of "safeguards". For example, what prevents them from talking about your medical issues through GMail, then their accounts get hacked and your medical records are now on Wikileaks or APC? What is the penalty to BJ if they make a mistake? Remember when Equifax leaked all your credit report info? (https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/07/equifax-data-leak-could-involve-143-million-consumers/) What happened to them? Nothing. This has no penalties against BJ for violations (not that any of this ought to be allowed in the first place!)



What is the definition of "directly responsible"? No company employees should ever have ANY access to ANY of your medical records whatsoever, and without exception. Medical personnel are required to maintain records in compliance with HIPAA but this seems to create a parallel record keeping system ripe for abuse and security vulnerability.



Medical stuff should be limited to the company getting a "Yes" or "No" from the FAA medical officer and nothing more. You either have a 1st class or you don't.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:44 PM
Section 16 Workers Compensation Benefits
A. General
1. The Company shall reimburse a Pilot for all reasonable initial emergency out-of-pocket medical expenses incurred in connection with an on-the-job injury/illness (OJI).
2. A Pilot who is, or thinks they may have been, injured while on a Pairing or other Company business shall notify his Chief Pilot or designee of such injury as soon as practicable.


More weak language.


"reasonable"? What defines it reasonable? The company probably wouldn't find it reasonable to give you a Band-Aid.


What happens if you get stabbed by a needle with HIV while you're dumpster diving (cabin cleaning) while you're commuting in for duty? The contract doesn't elsewhere define duty as starting when you start dumpster diving. BJ will simply say you weren't "on the job" if you were cabin cleaning.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

RiddleEagle18
06-25-2018, 07:52 PM
You understand literally everything you have complained about tonight is Industry standard.

Or


The things you want added are not in any airline contract in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nuball5
06-25-2018, 07:56 PM
You understand literally everything you have complained about tonight is Industry standard.

Or


The things you want added are not in any airline contract in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not worth it.

queue
06-25-2018, 07:58 PM
Genuine, non-inflammatory hypothetical, Queue:

Should there be some sort of recall of the NC or even at an executive level, why wouldn't you take your passionate crusade of bettering the profession to that same, recalled level? More than once you've said you could write things better than, what I assume to be, full time ALPA attorneys versed in labor law.

Well, why wouldn't you?

Though I'm anticipating the "management troll" replies from the others, I'm just looking for an answer to the question.


Firstly, labor law is not a limiting factor. It doesn't stop us from negotiating better conditions of employment. Attorneys are not as useful as you may think or are led to believe. Where were our ALPA lawyers in allowing so many loopholes? Literally every page I read has huge loopholes if not just grossly unacceptable concessions (e.g. the company dealing with pilot medical issues). Lawyers tend to invite vagueness in contracts in order to keep themselves employed in fighting those very same loopholes. You have to make a lawyer work for you otherwise they are screwing you (e.g. if you sit in their office telling them your sob stories, they are only acting like they care because they started the clock the second you walked in - $$$$).

Secondly, getting to an ALPA MEC or NC position is purely a high school level popularity contest, exactly like politics. I don't play those kinds of games. If the BJ pilot group would vote for me, I would consider it, but that won't happen under ordinary circumstances. Too many pilots at BJ suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and they will object to me as Bozo does. He had to block me because I was so threatening to his fragile little brain.

Thirdly, ALPA would use their powers against me the second I threaten their monopoly and establishment. I would need legal protection from them. While I support ALPA, I don't support its current form. It's too expensive and doesn't deliver results, as evidenced by this garbage TA. I want it filled with killers with proven track records.



https://bmj2k.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/vote-for-pedro.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 08:03 PM
The things you want added are not in any airline contract in existence.


Who cares if it's not in any contract in existence!!!!! What a dumb argument.


Anything is fair game. Don't be such a low-rent, low-expectation, low-standard company apologist. This is the very attitude that created the "race to the bottom" this industry suffers from. You are basically advocating that improvement should never happen.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 08:16 PM
U. Flight Duty Period (FDP) Extensions


Read this section. This doesn't stop BJ from requiring the PIC from filing a Fatigue Report. This is just the existing policy put in the contract. It still allows retribution against a pilot for not extending. In other words, what happens if you don't extend just because you "don't feel like it"? The FAA says it's your choice but BJ currently attaches strings to it which is coercion unless you file a fatigue report.


It should allow you to deny an extension on any grounds, without any additional paperwork, and without any record keeping which could lead to formal or informal retribution.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 08:19 PM
The fatigue section "W. Fatigue" pg. 173.


Paragraph 4. should allow you to take either UTO or PTO (at your discretion) if the FERC determines the fatigue event is non-work related.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 08:23 PM
Page 182, Company Equipment.


FINALLY... something good... I look forward to getting my company issued cell phone. I'm tired of having to allow the company the use of my personal cell phone for company business, particularly now that I can't tax deduct it. (which is ok since taxpayers shouldn't be subsidizing companies anyways)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 08:25 PM
Page 183, E. Crew Lounges


Needs to have quiet rooms separated from FAs or any other employees.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-25-2018, 08:27 PM
Page 183, G. Discrimination.


Excellent!!! Will this also stop them from hiring at career fairs? Some of them are very exclusionary.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
06-25-2018, 08:39 PM
Love. It.

.....

Alterbridge
06-25-2018, 08:45 PM
Soooo, put yourself out there and see? Killers had to initially establish their track records, no?

Won't go round and round here. You answered the initial question. The follow up is, will you do anything to effect change? Safe to say that a web board isn't the place to do so.


Firstly, labor law is not a limiting factor. It doesn't stop us from negotiating better conditions of employment. Attorneys are not as useful as you may think or are led to believe. Where were our ALPA lawyers in allowing so many loopholes? Literally every page I read has huge loopholes if not just grossly unacceptable concessions (e.g. the company dealing with pilot medical issues). Lawyers tend to invite vagueness in contracts in order to keep themselves employed in fighting those very same loopholes. You have to make a lawyer work for you otherwise they are screwing you (e.g. if you sit in their office telling them your sob stories, they are only acting like they care because they started the clock the second you walked in - $$$$).

Secondly, getting to an ALPA MEC or NC position is purely a high school level popularity contest, exactly like politics. I don't play those kinds of games. If the BJ pilot group would vote for me, I would consider it, but that won't happen under ordinary circumstances. Too many pilots at BJ suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and they will object to me as Bozo does. He had to block me because I was so threatening to his fragile little brain.

Thirdly, ALPA would use their powers against me the second I threaten their monopoly and establishment. I would need legal protection from them. While I support ALPA, I don't support its current form. It's too expensive and doesn't deliver results, as evidenced by this garbage TA. I want it filled with killers with proven track records.

Soooo, put yourself out there and see? Killers had to initially establish their track records, no?

Won't go round and round here. You answered the initial question. The follow up is, will you do anything to effect change? Safe to say that a web board isn't the place to do so.



https://bmj2k.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/vote-for-pedro.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 10:42 PM
You understand literally everything you have complained about tonight is Industry standard.

Or


The things you want added are not in any airline contract in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Queue wouldn't be satisfied with Delta's contract either......

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 10:53 PM
Who cares if it's not in any contract in existence!!!!! What a dumb argument.


Anything is fair game. Don't be such a low-rent, low-expectation, low-standard company apologist. This is the very attitude that created the "race to the bottom" this industry suffers from. You are basically advocating that improvement should never happen.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Queue-

We simply have to compare our contract to the Delta/United/American/southwest of the world.

Your argument is that we should just create exactly what we as pilots want in each section. That's not the aim of this contract (nor should it be). The aim is to create a contract that is comparable to the big 4 airlines. This does that.

To go through and nitpick each section is fine. However, Let's keep it within the context of trying to keep us in the category of the big 4.

seekingblue
06-25-2018, 11:08 PM
If the BJ pilot group would vote for me, I would consider it, but that won't happen under ordinary circumstances. Too many pilots at BJ suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and they will object to me as Bozo does. He had to block me because I was so threatening to his fragile little brain.

Thirdly, ALPA would use their powers against me the second I threaten their monopoly and establishment. I would need legal protection from them. While I support ALPA, I don't support its current form. It's too expensive and doesn't deliver results, as evidenced by this garbage TA. I want it filled with killers with proven track records.



https://bmj2k.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/vote-for-pedro.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


You have lost your mind.

ALPA would use their powers against you? Too many Jetblue pilots suffer Stockholm syndrome?

Jesus dude. If you want to vote no, just vote no. But this paranoia you have is honestly the craziest thing I've read in a long time.

MGMTiswatchingU
06-26-2018, 03:18 AM
You have lost your mind.

ALPA would use their powers against you? Too many Jetblue pilots suffer Stockholm syndrome?

Jesus dude. If you want to vote no, just vote no. But this paranoia you have is honestly the craziest thing I've read in a long time.

No worries. It's just excuses. Last time I saw Q on here, before the TA, he ignored my question and disappeared. Q is just a person with huge vocabulary and typing skills and no action but to troll a forum.

queue
06-26-2018, 05:09 AM
No worries. It's just excuses. Last time I saw Q on here, before the TA, he ignored my question and disappeared. Q is just a person with huge vocabulary and typing skills and no action but to troll a forum.


What was your question?


I was busy.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-26-2018, 05:12 AM
Love. It.

.....


Yes, I love it! It just proves my point.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
06-26-2018, 05:14 AM
Love. It.

.....

I have the same pages- Funny isnt it? :D

Bozo the pilot
06-26-2018, 05:18 AM
No worries. It's just excuses. Last time I saw Q on here, before the TA, he ignored my question and disappeared. Q is just a person with huge vocabulary and typing skills and no action but to troll a forum.

Plenty have updated their ignore list.
Think of the endless, non-sensical drivel from which you'd be spared.
Now back to the real debate from real pilots.

queue
06-26-2018, 05:26 AM
Soooo, put yourself out there and see? Killers had to initially establish their track records, no?

Won't go round and round here. You answered the initial question. The follow up is, will you do anything to effect change? Safe to say that a web board isn't the place to do so.


I will not do anything under the existing method of choosing MEC/NC members. I'd rather work in the background - I've already done quite a bit but no one here will ever know about it and it will stay that way. The attacks are funny and I welcome them. The truth is that I win the better the contract gets - I win if you win. The defeatists (Southerner, Bozo) seek an inferior contract because they benefit more than anyone else.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-26-2018, 05:29 AM
Plenty have updated their ignore list.
Think of the endless, non-sensical drivel from which you'd be spared.
Now back to the real debate from real pilots.


They are not my concern. It just strengthens my point. People with half a brain cell have already figured out that Bozo is just a company shill who wants people to accept less. If F&H had a presence here, Bozo would be it. He doesn't want better - he wants you to accept an inferior contract.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-26-2018, 05:31 AM
Queue wouldn't be satisfied with Delta's contract either......


I have a threshold for basic pay, and it's not at Delta's rates. I've said it before, look it up. But in the long run this is about improvement, not idle stagnation and complacency. After Contract 1, we must always be looking out to improve Contract 2.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
06-26-2018, 05:40 AM
Plenty have updated their ignore list.
Think of the endless, non-sensical drivel from which you'd be spared.
Now back to the real debate from real pilots.
Read it again guys. :D

aldonite7667
06-26-2018, 05:40 AM
Love. It.

.....

Mine looks exactly the same! Isnít it great!?

AYLflyer
06-26-2018, 05:55 AM
It was written by people who have never read a real contract before.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:





You understand literally everything you have complained about tonight is Industry standard.

Or


The things you want added are not in any airline contract in existence.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think Q actually understands how negotiations work.


I haven't finished reading it yet, but so far these are the things that stand out to me that I don't like.

First and foremost, the word "AVERAGE" for daily credit in pairing constructions has irked me since they released the AIP, and my fear has come to realization. I've been saying we need 'MINIMUM' daily credit, not 'AVERAGE DAILY CREDIT'.

In the TA there is a trip example that has a 30hr layover. If you use only the block time as determining credit for this example, then the 4 day trip would pay 18ish hours based on our current system. With this new average, the 4 day trip is now 20hrs of pay thanks to the average daily. Seems good right? Well, no, because we're leaving 5+ hours on the table. Days 1 and 2 in that example block 7.3 and 8.8, with day 3 off and day 4 blocking 1.8, for a total 17.9. That day 3 layover should be a MINIMUM of 5 hours pay, and that last day of 1.8 block should be a MINIMUM DAILY of 5 hours, turning that 20hr trip into a 26ish hour trip. This is how it was done at my regional, there's no reason it shouldn't be done here. Your 7-8hrs of credit on day 1 or 2 is watered down because it's all averaged out to meet the 5 hour average daily requirement. There will still be lots of trips with 30hr layovers and heavy flying loaded up in the first days, that should pay a minimum of over 20 hours but we won't see it because of the "AVERAGE" language.

If I'm reading/interpreting any of that incorrectly, please let me know, but you can look at the example yourself in Section 4.B.1

Next, in Section 1, why are non-jet blue pilots (Barring manufacturer pilots) allowed to touch our airplanes? Paint shop, mx etc flights should be conducted by JetBlue pilots only. The entire idea of a part 91 pilots flying our stuff is ridiculous IMO. Those are hours that some of us would want and can earn.

The QOL stuff seems pretty good though, but I'm only getting into the meatier part of the TA this morning. There are a lot of things I like, but there are still many things, especially the things above, that I don't like.

sailingfun
06-26-2018, 05:59 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:







I don't think Q actually understands how negotiations work.


I haven't finished reading it yet, but so far these are the things that stand out to me that I don't like.

First and foremost, the word "AVERAGE" for daily credit in pairing constructions has irked me since they released the AIP, and my fear has come to realization. I've been saying we need 'MINIMUM' daily credit, not 'AVERAGE DAILY CREDIT'.

In the TA there is a trip example that has a 30hr layover. If you use only the block time as determining credit for this example, then the 4 day trip would pay 18ish hours based on our current system. With this new average, the 4 day trip is now 20hrs of pay thanks to the average daily. Seems good right? Well, no, because we're leaving 5+ hours on the table. Days 1 and 2 in that example block 7.3 and 8.8, with day 3 off and day 4 blocking 1.8, for a total 17.9. That day 3 layover should be a MINIMUM of 5 hours pay, and that last day of 1.8 block should be a MINIMUM DAILY of 5 hours, turning that 20hr trip into a 26ish hour trip. This is how it was done at my regional, there's no reason it shouldn't be done here. Your 7-8hrs of credit on day 1 or 2 is watered down because it's all averaged out to meet the 5 hour average daily requirement. There will still be lots of trips with 30hr layovers and heavy flying loaded up in the first days, that should pay a minimum of over 20 hours but we won't see it because of the "AVERAGE" language.

If I'm reading/interpreting any of that incorrectly, please let me know, but you can look at the example yourself in Section 4.B.1

Next, in Section 1, why are non-jet blue pilots (Barring manufacturer pilots) allowed to touch our airplanes? Paint shop, mx etc flights should be conducted by JetBlue pilots only. The entire idea of a part 91 pilots flying our stuff is ridiculous IMO. Those are hours that some of us would want and can earn.

The QOL stuff seems pretty good though, but I'm only getting into the meatier part of the TA this morning. There are a lot of things I like, but there are still many things, especially the things above, that I don't like.

Which regional has a 5 hour daily minimum?

RiddleEagle18
06-26-2018, 06:25 AM
No major has daily minimum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluetruth
06-26-2018, 07:16 AM
Has the requirement to blue turn while non-reving been done away with?

P-3Bubba
06-26-2018, 07:21 AM
Q is probably banned from car dealerships and any international marketplace. Can you imagine his buyers remorse?

The TA certainly has some faults, but thereís no doubt that weíre in desperate need for a CBA. No pay raise in 2018. No COLA 2018. Lucky we got 8% in 2017. (Management Gift)

Look at he language we live by in todayís PEA. Bozo wants a better deal. Better pay rates. Better language. Well, that will be 4 years of no votes. 4 years of new negotiators and mediators.

Itís time to start the clock. Begin our lives under a CBA and figure out what works and doesnít work going forward. We donít know what Aircraft or plan the company has in store for us, but we do know we have no say in what that will be. We never have. Delta pilots didnít vote on getting the A350 and Iím sure the Delta Forum version of Q was railing about the language which states ďthe subsequent purchase agreement must herein lie to the discretion of this said management in consideration of the whiny little bi7ches who are paid to make them go up and downĒ

Now Q will say weíre settling and Bozo will say oh who knows. Letís find out.

-Bubs

P-3Bubba
06-26-2018, 07:23 AM
I know I have a reserve line in July. 31 days. 12 days off. That sucks. TA fixes that to 15.

-Bubs

Bluedriver
06-26-2018, 07:31 AM
P3, are you drunk?

Isn't the TA 13/14 days off for reserves?

8% raise in 2017, management gift? ARE YOU FOXTROT KIDDING ME? That "raise" cost me ALL of 8% in profit sharing the next year, AND EVERY SUBSEQUENT YEAR OF THIS NEW "CONTRACT"!

We lost probably 70-100k over the life of our new TA due to that awesome 8% management "gift".

And 4 years to renegotiate 3-4 fixes?

You are definitely drunk, or worse.

And I'm not even sure I'm gonna vote NO, but wow.

nuball5
06-26-2018, 07:40 AM
P3, are you drunk?

Isn't the TA 13/14 days off for reserves?

8% raise in 2017, management gift? ARE YOU FOXTROT KIDDING ME? That "raise" cost me ALL of 8% in profit sharing the next year, AND EVERY SUBSEQUENT YEAR OF THIS NEW "CONTRACT"!

We lost probably 70-100k over the life of our new TA due to that awesome 8% management "gift".

And 4 years to renegotiate 3-4 fixes?

You are definitely drunk, or worse.

And I'm not even sure I'm gonna vote NO, but wow.

Four years might be stretching it, I'll go with 18 months-2 years. A loss of almost 300k-500k just in not having the 15% DC for an additional two years (depending on your age and income obviously). Not saying anyone should vote yes/no based on just that. I'm still reading and deciding.

Mattio
06-26-2018, 07:58 AM
One of the first things I looked up in the TA is if they fixed the AM/PM bidding for reserves. They would now have 4 "silos" that can be bid for with seniority

Silo RAP start window
(Base local time)
A 01:00-06:59
B 07:00-11:59
C 12:00-16:59
D 17:00-22:00

HOWEVER, it also states: "RAP start times within a silo shall be awarded in seniority order beginning with the earliest RAP start time."

It appears that people with the earlier RAP start times would still get called first for short call-outs and, thus, the most senior guy within the silo is the guy to get called first! (legality permitting)

This is something I harped on in every survey. I can't see a benefit for the company in having it written this way, so why on earth was this not fixed??

Also, I don't see any language on how the required numbers for each silo should be determined. They wouldn't be able to give us a RAP start time before 1000 on the first day but you could still have 5+ days of reserve left and they put you on a RAP with a start time of 0300 while everyone with less days start later than you (and you frequently get an early assignment in this situation.)

I find it hard to keep reading the TA after seeing the highlights and seeing this. That, and the pay cut I'll take initially with losing PTO sellback (E190) as well as the vulnerability we'll have with them getting 195E2's under that same pay rate. I'm still going to try to read the whole thing but I dunno....

BeatNavy
06-26-2018, 07:59 AM
I know I have a reserve line in July. 31 days. 12 days off. That sucks. TA fixes that to 15.

-Bubs

Lol what? Did you get hired by SWA or something?

RiddleEagle18
06-26-2018, 08:04 AM
One of the first things I looked up in the TA is if they fixed the AM/PM bidding for reserves. They now have 4 "silos" that can be bid for with seniority



Silo RAP start window

(Base local time)

A 01:00-06:59

B 07:00-11:59

C 12:00-16:59

D 17:00-22:00



HOWEVER, it also states: "RAP start times within a silo shall be awarded in seniority order beginning with the earliest RAP start time."



It appears that people with the earlier RAP start times would still get called first for short call-outs and, thus, the most senior guy within the silo is the guy to get called first! (legality permitting)



This is something I harped on in every survey. I can't see a benefit for the company in having it written this way, so why on earth was this not fixed??



Also, I don't see any language on how the required numbers for each silo should be determined. They wouldn't be able to give us a RAP start time before 1000 on the first day but you could still have 5 days of reserve left and they put you on a RAP with a start time of 0300 while everyone with less days start later than you (and you frequently get an early assignment in this situation.)



I find it hard to keep reading the TA after seeing the highlights and seeing this. That, and the pay cut I'll take initially with losing PTO sellback (E190). I'm still going to try to read the whole thing but I dunno....



I donít think that is correct.

In fact senior guys within the same days available and silo can bypass to the junior pilot. SCR only.

2 pilots bid for silo B. There are multiple start times within silo B.

The senior pilot gets awarded the 0800 RAP
The junior guy gets awarded the 0900 RAP

3 day pops up at 1115
Two guys in silo B with 3 days available.

Senior guy can bypass to junior guy.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mattio
06-26-2018, 08:34 AM
I donít think that is correct.

In fact senior guys within the same days available and silo can bypass to the junior pilot. SCR only.

2 pilots bid for silo B. There are multiple start times within silo B.

The senior pilot gets awarded the 0800 RAP
The junior guy gets awarded the 0900 RAP

3 day pops up at 1115
Two guys in silo B with 3 days available.

Senior guy can bypass to junior guy.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can you cut and paste the section that permits the "pass" (or tell which page/bullet to find it under)? I only see a section that allows you to pass on Next Day Assignments (which are supposed to go to Long Call Reserves first anyways). I'm talking about same day assignments. This is the only section I can find on being able to pass:

Short Call Reserve Pairing Assignment Pass for Next Day Assignments
On each Short Call Reserve day, a Short Call Reserve (excluding RSA
Reserve) may elect to pass using FLiCA, prior to the start of the Next Day
Reserve assignment process. The Company shall grant Short Call Reserve
pass requests in seniority order when either:
i. Two (2) or more Pilots have equal number of Reserve days during
the Next Day Reserve assignment process; or
ii. Two (2) or more Pilots have equal number of Reserve days and the
same RAP start time for Pairing assignments made after the DRO
closes for the next day.

Mattio
06-26-2018, 08:54 AM
Furthermore, Long Call Reserves, who would now be the primary recipients of Next Day Assignments, would have no "pass" option. These assignments would be based on who has the least amount of credit on the month. Only when two pilots have the same amount of credit would the senior guy not get called.

Bluedriver
06-26-2018, 08:55 AM
Four years might be stretching it, I'll go with 18 months-2 years. A loss of almost 300k-500k just in not having the 15% DC for an additional two years (depending on your age and income obviously). Not saying anyone should vote yes/no based on just that. I'm still reading and deciding.

I don't believe for one second that 2% of an average JB pilots salary, for an averaged aged JB pilot, for 18-24 months equates to 300-500k compounded.

nuball5
06-26-2018, 09:11 AM
I don't believe for one second that 2% of an average JB pilots salary, for an averaged aged JB pilot, for 18-24 months equates to 300-500k compounded.

Stick 5% of your income that you no longer have to match into a large growth mutual fund and you'll make out pretty good down the road.

Bluedriver
06-26-2018, 09:15 AM
Stick 5% of your income that you no longer have to match into a large growth mutual fund and you'll make out pretty good down the road.

This might literally be the dumbest post in history.

Think about what you just wrote for a few mins and let me know when it sinks in.

nuball5
06-26-2018, 09:24 AM
This might literally be the dumbest post in history.

Think about what you just wrote for a few mins and let me know when it sinks in.


Insult wasn't warranted but thanks. Either way it's more money lost than what I larger ratification bonus would cover in two years.

Bluedriver
06-26-2018, 09:29 AM
Insult wasn't warranted but thanks. Either way it's more money lost than what I larger ratification bonus would cover in two years.

I shouldn't have been a Richard, sorry bout that.

nuball5
06-26-2018, 09:33 AM
I shouldn't have been a Richard, sorry bout that.

That's fine it's a tense time I get it. To me I see it as an extra 7% since we now longer have a matching requirement. Maybe I am an idiot like you said and looking at it the wrong way.

Bluedriver
06-26-2018, 09:36 AM
That's fine it's a tense time I get it. To me I see it as an extra 7% since we now longer have a matching requirement. Maybe I am an idiot like you said and looking at it the wrong way.

The point is, whether you put 5% into your 401k or "a high growth mutual fund" on your own it's still invested for the long term. Same amount invested, same return.

PasserOGas
06-26-2018, 09:41 AM
Short Call Reserve Pairing Assignment Pass for Next Day Assignments
On each Short Call Reserve day, a Short Call Reserve (excluding RSA
Reserve) may elect to pass using FLiCA, prior to the start of the Next Day
Reserve assignment process. The Company shall grant Short Call Reserve
pass requests in seniority order when either:
i. Two (2) or more Pilots have equal number of Reserve days during
the Next Day Reserve assignment process; or
ii. Two (2) or more Pilots have equal number of Reserve days and the
same RAP start time for Pairing assignments made after the DRO
closes for the next day.

In other words, exactly what we have now. Unless you hold LCR the only real change is the silo you can ASK for.

Knock it out of the park NC!

say again
06-26-2018, 09:42 AM
Mine looks exactly the same! Isnít it great!?

Same here! Now to get the others to stop quoting his/her drivel.. :D

nuball5
06-26-2018, 09:54 AM
Anyone know if it's commonplace to have Alpa roadshows videotaped and shared online? I'm unfortunately a Jetblue pilot flying the line in the summer.

Bozo the pilot
06-26-2018, 10:02 AM
That's fine it's a tense time I get it. To me I see it as an extra 7% since we now longer have a matching requirement. Maybe I am an idiot like you said and looking at it the wrong way.

It is and it's not a tense time for BD- He's always backed up.
;)

402DRVR
06-26-2018, 10:10 AM
Anyone know if it's commonplace to have Alpa roadshows videotaped and shared online? I'm unfortunately a Jetblue pilot flying the line in the summer.

I believe there will be video presentations to go along with the road shows. There will also be webinars on certain sections like scope in which things are explained in more detail and hopefully questions and concerns are addressed to allow an informed vote.

Bozo the pilot
06-26-2018, 10:13 AM
I believe there will be video presentations to go along with the road shows. There will also be webinars on certain sections like scope in which things are explained in more detail and hopefully questions and concerns are addressed to allow an informed vote.

Not that any of the fear-mongering, Auto-NOs are going to ask questions- They'll be afraid of the answers.
Then theyll whine about implementation, which I understand.
This was never going to happen any quicker.

nuball5
06-26-2018, 10:17 AM
I believe there will be video presentations to go along with the road shows. There will also be webinars on certain sections like scope in which things are explained in more detail and hopefully questions and concerns are addressed to allow an informed vote.

Awesome...thank you

jetpilot285
06-26-2018, 10:56 AM
Hi guys pls what is VDA and RSA? Reserve pilot picks up trip on day off does that count above guarantee or toward guarantee with new TA?

hilltopflyer
06-26-2018, 11:24 AM
Question for you guys. When it says we can have a 90 day contract for certain reasons. Why would they add that. Instead of training pilots to fly the planes?

Mattio
06-26-2018, 11:28 AM
Short Call Reserve Pairing Assignment Pass for Next Day Assignments
On each Short Call Reserve day, a Short Call Reserve (excluding RSA
Reserve) may elect to pass using FLiCA, prior to the start of the Next Day
Reserve assignment process. The Company shall grant Short Call Reserve
pass requests in seniority order when either:
i. Two (2) or more Pilots have equal number of Reserve days during
the Next Day Reserve assignment process; or
ii. Two (2) or more Pilots have equal number of Reserve days and the
same RAP start time for Pairing assignments made after the DRO
closes for the next day.

In other words, exactly what we have now. Unless you hold LCR the only real change is the silo you can ASK for.

Knock it out of the park NC!

Yup, and even though (for me at least) most assignments are same day instead of next day assigments, all the next day assignments are going to go to LCR's first. So if it ends up being 30% of rsv guys are long call but they're all getting the next day assignments, they are going to fly a lot I think. That coupled with the fact that 5 days can be converted to SCR* and the fewer days off for guys awarded Long Call, I'm concerned that Long Call guys are going to end up with very few days at home. Also, "A Reserve may not UTO below 70 hours"**, while a lineholder can.

*- days converted to SCR pay an extra $100
**- page 38

PasserOGas
06-26-2018, 11:36 AM
Yup, and even though (for me at least) most assignments are same day instead of next day assigments, all the next day assignments are going to go to LCR's first. So if it ends up being 30% of rsv guys are long call but they're all getting the next day assignments, they are going to fly a lot I think. That coupled with the fact that 5 days can be converted to SCR* and the fewer days off for guys awarded Long Call, I'm concerned that Long Call guys are going to end up with very few days at home. Also, "A Reserve may not UTO below 70 hours"**, while a lineholder can.

*- days converted to SCR pay an extra $100
**- page 38

This whole section (reserve) appears to be pretty cost neutral to the company. They just chopped up our current system and let guys bid on different parts of it. Hardly industry leading.

God help the junior reserve captains. Silo D for 3 years anyone?

Southerner
06-26-2018, 11:51 AM
Which regional has a 5 hour daily minimum?

Expressjet does.

Mattio
06-26-2018, 11:54 AM
This is the entire section on staffing, from page 126:

M. Staffing
1. Minimum Base Requirements: Each base will be staffed with Captains and First
Officers sufficient to operate the flying to be conducted by that Base.
2. Reserve Staffing: The minimum number of reserve crew positions for each
equipment type system-wide shall be ten percent (10%).
3. Staffing Projections: When calculating the staffing needs of individual Bases, the
Company shall use the projected block hours to be flown divided by the monthly
maximum bid divisor (90) minus four hours (4:00). Further, the Company will
increase the number of Pilots needed to ensure the Base remains staffed
sufficiently to account for full time Management/Association Pilots, vacations,
sick leave, leave of absences, training, etc..

I expected to see more legalese in this section. I feel like it's full of holes... Maybe it's just me and I know there are smarter people than me on here. For example, it says "reserve positions...shall be 10%". 10% of what? I think it's implying they should be 10% of the total positions or 10% on top of the line-holder positions needed to cover flying but it doesn't say that.

seekingblue
06-26-2018, 11:56 AM
http://jbumec.alpa.org/Home/TA2018/tabid/11287/Default.aspx

B6 Alpa is answering all the questions that have been asked so fa (via the email link)

Mattio
06-26-2018, 12:32 PM
http://jbumec.alpa.org/Home/TA2018/tabid/11287/Default.aspx

B6 Alpa is answering all the questions that have been asked so fa (via the email link)

Not sure if your post is in response to me or to everyone, but I'm not worried about what ALPA implied by "10%", I'm sure the intentions were good. I'm worried about how a company lawyer will pick this apart when used for determining how to operate. However, I will ask ALPA how they intend to prevent this from getting picked apart.

sailingfun
06-26-2018, 12:44 PM
Expressjet does.

Do you have a source? Here is what I found.

At ExpressJet we offer duty/trip rig pay on top of pay for time in the air.

Our ERJ trip rigs are:
4 day trip = Minimum 15 hours of pay
3.75 hours of min day pay for an off day pick up
3 hours of min day pay for a calendar day layover on a trip
2 hours of min day pay for a flying day during a trip

Our CRJ duty rigs are:
Paid 1 minute for every 2 minutes of work up to 12 hours (1:2)
Paid 1 minute for every 1 minute of work after 12 hours (1:1)
3.87 hours of min day pay

seekingblue
06-26-2018, 12:49 PM
Not sure if your post is in response to me or to everyone, but I'm not worried about what ALPA implied by "10%", I'm sure the intentions were good. I'm worried about how a company lawyer will pick this apart when used for determining how to operate. However, I will ask ALPA how they intend to prevent this from getting picked apart.


Not intended for anyone in particular. Just wanted to provide another information source.

expectholding
06-26-2018, 02:12 PM
why are we talking about express jet? lol they're not close to a peer

hilltopflyer
06-26-2018, 02:27 PM
Is the website down? I canít get it to load?

PasserOGas
06-26-2018, 04:03 PM
why are we talking about express jet? lol they're not close to a peer

And yet they can standby in first class (without cleaning the plane) and get real food, not snack boxes as crew meals.

P-3Bubba
06-26-2018, 04:21 PM
Everyone needs to go to b6alpa.org and take a look at the Q&A and also the new Contract Comparison Guide.

-Bubs

P-3Bubba
06-26-2018, 04:29 PM
P3, are you drunk?

Isn't the TA 13/14 days off for reserves?

8% raise in 2017, management gift? ARE YOU FOXTROT KIDDING ME? That "raise" cost me ALL of 8% in profit sharing the next year, AND EVERY SUBSEQUENT YEAR OF THIS NEW "CONTRACT"!

We lost probably 70-100k over the life of our new TA due to that awesome 8% management "gift".

And 4 years to renegotiate 3-4 fixes?

You are definitely drunk, or worse.

And I'm not even sure I'm gonna vote NO, but wow.

I voted NO to the 2017 raise. Knowing something bad was about to happen. Did you vote yes?

Anyways, yes it’s 13/14. Which is better than 12. So when I was sooo wasted on whatever I typed 15. It’s a contractual gain. Now, I’ll go back to my illicit extracurriculars, and reiterate the need to VOTE YES.

-Bubs

Southerner
06-26-2018, 04:40 PM
Do you have a source? Here is what I found.

At ExpressJet we offer duty/trip rig pay on top of pay for time in the air.

Our ERJ trip rigs are:
4 day trip = Minimum 15 hours of pay
3.75 hours of min day pay for an off day pick up
3 hours of min day pay for a calendar day layover on a trip
2 hours of min day pay for a flying day during a trip

Our CRJ duty rigs are:
Paid 1 minute for every 2 minutes of work up to 12 hours (1:2)
Paid 1 minute for every 1 minute of work after 12 hours (1:1)
3.87 hours of min day pay

It is possible that the old ASA side contract had it, and it is now gone. But when I was there 6 years ago on the CRJ side, if you had a trip with 6 hours the first day, 2 the second, and 6 the last day, that would pay 17 hours.

I know this because I was shocked my first month after training when the pay didn't work out that way. I was naive, and thought that it was standard, and didn't realize that 5 hours per duty period was different than 5 hours per day.

That being said, the 5 hours average per day is an improvement for us, and 5 hours minimum per day is not industry standard. It may not even exist in the industry anywhere any longer. The 2007 ASA contract had some really great work rules...which is why the company wanted to get rid of it so badly after the merger.

Southerner
06-26-2018, 04:42 PM
why are we talking about express jet? lol they're not close to a peer

There's nothing wrong with taking a good work rule, and adopting it at your airline. Where it comes from is really irrelevant. That rule was a good one, and evidently was industry leading. I didn't realize it at the time.

PasserOGas
06-26-2018, 05:02 PM
There's nothing wrong with taking a good work rule, and adopting it at your airline. Where it comes from is really irrelevant. That rule was a good one, and evidently was industry leading. I didn't realize it at the time.

Where is Southerner and is he OK? Give me back my nemesis. He completes me.

capt707
06-26-2018, 05:27 PM
Everyone needs to go to b6alpa.org and take a look at the Q&A and also the new Contract Comparison Guide.

-Bubs

I want to see the comparison guide using 2020 numbers, about when this TA should be fully implemented. Itís going to look a lot different from the current one....

CaptCoolHand
06-26-2018, 05:47 PM
I voted NO to the 2017 raise. Knowing something bad was about to happen. Did you vote yes?

Anyways, yes itís 13/14. Which is better than 12. So when I was sooo wasted on whatever I typed 15. Itís a contractual gain. Now, Iíll go back to my illicit extracurriculars, and reiterate the need to VOTE YES.

-Bubs

You voted no... to a raise, that in the end would have resulted in the same outcome but less money in your pay check? What? You do understand that they were changing regardless of if we got more or not right?

There was no vote. It was take more more money weíre doing this. Or. Stay the same weíre doing this.

Your getbthat right?

aldonite7667
06-26-2018, 05:59 PM
I voted NO to the 2017 raise. Knowing something bad was about to happen. Did you vote yes?

Anyways, yes itís 13/14. Which is better than 12. So when I was sooo wasted on whatever I typed 15. Itís a contractual gain. Now, Iíll go back to my illicit extracurriculars, and reiterate the need to VOTE YES.

-Bubs

Voting no on that raise was like voting against the sun rising tomorrow. :-)

AYLflyer
06-27-2018, 05:35 AM
And yet they can standby in first class (without cleaning the plane) and get real food, not snack boxes as crew meals.

Just to play devils advocate for a second, but how to we implement meals for our crews, when the only aircraft that actually have full meals are Mint 321s? What about 190 guys? Or 320 guys that just do core flying? When you say meals, do you mean a cold sandwich that can be kept on ice, or are you looking for a hot meal like other companies provide their pilots? The 190 doesn't have an oven or cooling system to keep even a catered meal fresh or heated. Even if they gave us catered meals, where would we keep them? I mean I agree, I think we should be getting actual meals for flights over X hours. The only comparison I have is my regional days. Our 175s had first class seats which had first class meals on ice, but even those would get nasty sometimes if they weren't eaten in a certain amount of time.

I agree 100% about the first class thing. It's ridiculous that we as employees can't be seated in MINT. I've non-reved before and had to explain to my wife why there were 3 open mint seats in front of us, and why were weren't sitting in them, when back in my regional days we were able to cross the pond a couple times in Delta One for almost zero cost to us.

pilotpayne
06-27-2018, 06:37 AM
Just to play devils advocate for a second, but how to we implement meals for our crews, when the only aircraft that actually have full meals are Mint 321s? What about 190 guys? Or 320 guys that just do core flying? When you say meals, do you mean a cold sandwich that can be kept on ice, or are you looking for a hot meal like other companies provide their pilots? The 190 doesn't have an oven or cooling system to keep even a catered meal fresh or heated. Even if they gave us catered meals, where would we keep them? I mean I agree, I think we should be getting actual meals for flights over X hours. The only comparison I have is my regional days. Our 175s had first class seats which had first class meals on ice, but even those would get nasty sometimes if they weren't eaten in a certain amount of time.

I agree 100% about the first class thing. It's ridiculous that we as employees can't be seated in MINT. I've non-reved before and had to explain to my wife why there were 3 open mint seats in front of us, and why were weren't sitting in them, when back in my regional days we were able to cross the pond a couple times in Delta One for almost zero cost to us.

Totally agree as well as the mint issue.
There was no way they were just going to give it to the pilots. If you want that done it really needs to be a company wide push, and I fully support that. They want us to go above and beyond while they keep the money and enjoy the perks. This is an area where jetblue is totally wrong. Sometimes itís the little things and they donít seem to get that.

Rabid Seagull
06-27-2018, 07:30 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!

Bluedriver
06-27-2018, 07:33 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!

Standby to be shouted down by the Auto-YES crowd.

AYLflyer
06-27-2018, 08:02 AM
The annual system bid has me confused as well, but this is what's on the FAQ of the B6 site..

How does the one annual system bid really work?
Annually, prior to the vacation bid for the following year, the Company will determine their staffing needs for the upcoming year and open a bid. Pilots will be able to bid, in seniority order, for a particular base and seat for a specific time of year. A pilot may bid multiple seats throughout the year.

For example, a BOS E190 FO will bid for BOS A320 FO with a training date in March, and then BOS A320 CA with a training date in October.

That bolded part is throwing me off. So the system bid is still only once, but within it you can bid for multiple things throughout the year? Am I reading that right?

PasserOGas
06-27-2018, 08:24 AM
The annual system bid has me confused as well, but this is what's on the FAQ of the B6 site..



That bolded part is throwing me off. So the system bid is still only once, but within it you can bid for multiple things throughout the year? Am I reading that right?

I think you can bid around in your current seat. The company can release supplemental bids throughout the year, but the annual one is mandatory. Or something.

CaptCoolHand
06-27-2018, 08:46 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!
Itís a 2 yr freeze now for a downgrade. No change.

How is rsv less flexible? Serious question.

jtrain609
06-27-2018, 08:50 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!

Yeah so, I just spent the last year at the bottom of a category on reserve and our current system is pretty much horrible. Everything in this TA makes it better, and I'd like to know some specifics about what you think will make it worse.

symbian simian
06-27-2018, 08:51 AM
Wow, this poop-pile gets worse and worse...



Clauses C,D, and E are subject to interpretation (bad). There must be a definition of "taken into consideration" such as "a Pilot is solely authorized to determine and define what adequate considerations are, not subject to questioning by trepresent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Cut some of your quote, just to save space

Not saying NK has a better contract overall, but there definitely seems a lot of ambiguity/company interpretation in your Commuter Policy. for reference, this is us:

Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.

embraerjetpilot
06-27-2018, 08:52 AM
Yeah so, I just spent the last year at the bottom of a category on reserve and our current system is pretty much horrible. Everything in this TA makes it better, and I'd like to know some specifics about what you think will make it worse.

I might be wrong but I would assume you could bid it, it just wouldn't have an effective date till the two years is fully up.

jtrain609
06-27-2018, 09:01 AM
I might be wrong but I would assume you could bid it, it just wouldn't have an effective date till the two years is fully up.

What does system bidding have to do with reserve?

RiddleEagle18
06-27-2018, 09:28 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:



Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".



Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...



Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)

Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.

Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.

Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.



Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.



This thing sucks!!



On the August 2020 bid you would be able to bid for another upgrade on a training slot after December.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PasserOGas
06-27-2018, 09:37 AM
Cut some of your quote, just to save space

Not saying NK has a better contract overall, but there definitely seems a lot of ambiguity/company interpretation in your Commuter Policy. for reference, this is us:

Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.

Wait, so no verbiage at the end about "Even if you follow this we can still call you in to the chief pilot's office."?

Yet another section of our TA that trails the industry...

Softpayman
06-27-2018, 09:39 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!

You bid reserve now for flexibility? What flexibility does our current system have?

Here's an idea....Don't downgrade if you don't like the timeline.

pilotpayne
06-27-2018, 09:40 AM
Standby to be shouted down by the Auto-YES crowd.

Hey you found another group to shout you down....always that victim:)

Softpayman
06-27-2018, 09:41 AM
Hey you found another group to shout you down....always that victim:)

Was about to say the same thing...shouted down? Really?

pilotpayne
06-27-2018, 09:42 AM
Yeah so, I just spent the last year at the bottom of a category on reserve and our current system is pretty much horrible. Everything in this TA makes it better, and I'd like to know some specifics about what you think will make it worse.

As a rsv guy myself (maybe a line depending on the month) so would I.

pilotpayne
06-27-2018, 09:46 AM
Was about to say the same thing...shouted down? Really?

Hey go be a yes voter on bluepilots and watch the fun.

rvr1800
06-27-2018, 09:51 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!

Iíd also love to hear about this flexibility you get on reserve. Work more days and make the same or less money. Reserve grid red for the summer. Working free after you hit 75 hours and have reserve days remaining.

I havenít found one thing thatís worse about the TA reserve section.

Bozo the pilot
06-27-2018, 10:02 AM
I bid reserve for flexibility. Now considering a downgrade because the new reserve rules suck:

Downgrade now has a "2 year freeze".

Hmmm? 2 years? Well,...

Contract has one system bid a year on Aug1st ( once an f'n year)
Aug1st, 2018 I bid a downgrade.
Dec1st, 2018 I begin training for downgrade.
Dec1st, 2020 released from " freeze", but can't bid it until next system bid.

Aug1st, 2021 I can now bid for an upgrade.

This thing sucks!!
You feel you have more flexibility now??
Do tell- I want in;)

Bozo the pilot
06-27-2018, 10:03 AM
Standby to be shouted down by the Auto-YES crowd.

Ah- imitation is the sincerest form of.. Well you know.
Hows life today BD?

pilotpayne
06-27-2018, 10:13 AM
Ah- imitation is the sincerest form of.. Well you know.
Hows life today BD?

I like BD but I always laugh when he plays this card. I havenít seen much ďshouting downĒ but actually a pretty good debate. He certainly has valid points. But it was a little dramatic to say.

PasserOGas
06-27-2018, 10:20 AM
Iíd also love to hear about this flexibility you get on reserve. Work more days and make the same or less money. Reserve grid red for the summer. Working free after you hit 75 hours and have reserve days remaining.

I havenít found one thing thatís worse about the TA reserve section.

The not working for free is an improvement, albeit a very rarely used one currently. That will change when junior guys bid LCR and get used non stop.

The "extra day off" and LCR came out of the current PRL and LCR bucket. Cost neutral. The new reserve rules are more or less cost neutral, and allow senior people to absolutely bend over junior people.

rvr1800
06-27-2018, 10:32 AM
The not working for free is an improvement, albeit a very rarely used one currently. That will change when junior guys bid LCR and get used non stop.

The "extra day off" and LCR came out of the current PRL and LCR bucket. Cost neutral. The new reserve rules are more or less cost neutral, and allow senior people to absolutely bend over junior people.

That’s all just about completely wrong.

Let’s start with the rarely working for free one. Wrong. It’s about to happen to me this month for the second month in a row.

Let’s move on to the increased days off at the cost of PRL’s and LCR. Wrong. PRL’s are never guaranteed and we won’t see any until September. Same goes for LCR. I have NEVER had one single day of LCR as a CA here.

And the cost neutral claim you like to make about every section. Wrong! More guaranteed days off, earlier DRO, no starts before 1000/1400 on day one. Earlier auto-release on the last day, ability to bid 18 days on in a row and the company has to figure out your 30/7 rest, delayed past 0300 now pays an extra day or requires compensatory day off. Those all cost the company money and are all significant improvements in the reserve section.

I could go on but I won’t because it’ll fall on your “cost neutral” deaf ears.

Bozo the pilot
06-27-2018, 10:36 AM
I like BD but I always laugh when he plays this card. I havenít seen much ďshouting downĒ but actually a pretty good debate. He certainly has valid points. But it was a little dramatic to say.

Oh fun times indeed. And ahead.

Bozo the pilot
06-27-2018, 10:39 AM
The not working for free is an improvement, albeit a very rarely used one currently. That will change when junior guys bid LCR and get used non stop.

The "extra day off" and LCR came out of the current PRL and LCR bucket. Cost neutral. The new reserve rules are more or less cost neutral, and allow senior people to absolutely bend over junior people.
Have you consulted anyone or are these just presumptions Passer?
If you have consulted someone, who are they and can I ask them a few questions myself?
Serious inquiry.

say again
06-27-2018, 10:40 AM
Hey go be a yes voter on bluepilots and watch the fun.

That site is [email protected] pathetic!!

Bluedriver
06-27-2018, 10:43 AM
Ah- imitation is the sincerest form of.. Well you know.
Hows life today BD?

Life? Pretty good honestly. You?

say again
06-27-2018, 10:44 AM
Thatís all just about completely wrong.

Letís start with the rarely working for free one. Wrong. Itís about to happen to me this month for the second month in a row.

Letís move on to the increased days off at the cost of PRLís and LCR. Wrong. PRLís are never guaranteed and we wonít see any until September. Same goes for LCR. I have NEVER had one single day of LCR as a CA here.

And the cost neutral claim you like to make about every section. Wrong! More guaranteed days off, earlier DRO, no starts before 1000/1400 on day one. Earlier auto-release on the last day, ability to bid 18 days on in a row and the company has to figure out your 30/7 rest, delayed past 0300 now pays an extra day or requires compensatory day off. Those all cost the company money and are all significant improvements in the reserve section.

I could go on but I wonít because itíll fall on your ďcost neutralĒ deaf ears.


No, just no! That can't be. This thing is a complete turd. There's no good in it. :rolleyes::p

Bozo the pilot
06-27-2018, 11:16 AM
Life? Pretty good honestly. You?

Yes BD.
My offer always stands to chat ex-parte. Id say there is more we agree with than that we disagree.
I remain curious about your thoughts on each section.

Bluedriver
06-27-2018, 11:40 AM
Yes BD.
My offer always stands to chat ex-parte. Id say there is more we agree with than that we disagree.
I remain curious about your thoughts on each section.

I will unfortunately be unable to speak with any APC members outside of this site besides the ones I know personally as we have one or more other members among us who seek to destroy careers because they don't like being asked to defend the positions they take with logic and reason.

We are all entitled to our own individual opinion, but if you are going to express an opinion in an open forum, you should also share the main reasons you hold that opinion.