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View Full Version : Reserve at AA


PasserOGas
06-25-2018, 06:57 AM
Hey fellas.

B6 guy here. As you may know we just got a TA. There are some questions about reserve as it works at other companies. Our MEC has been weak on details here.

How does reserve work at AA? I'm not looking for all the gory details, but generally. Is long call the standard and then you are switched? Is there an override or limits on how much short call you can sit? Can you pick up flying or reserve on days off?

Also, can one of you guys get on hiring me?


mainlineAF
06-25-2018, 11:52 AM
Hey fellas.



B6 guy here. As you may know we just got a TA. There are some questions about reserve as it works at other companies. Our MEC has been weak on details here.



How does reserve work at AA? I'm not looking for all the gory details, but generally. Is long call the standard and then you are switched? Is there an override or limits on how much short call you can sit? Can you pick up flying or reserve on days off?



Also, can one of you guys get on hiring me?



You bid either long or short call. Long call is 12 hour call out, short is reasonable time.

Long call pays 73, short pays 76. If on long call you can be converted to short 5 times a month for an extra :30 mins on top of guarantee.

No picking up straight time on days off. You can pick up if the company designates a trip premium or ďover guaranteeĒ.

Sliceback
06-25-2018, 03:47 PM
You can't be on reserve and see an uncovered trip and pick it up. CS assigns trips the day before or the day of the trip.

You can volunteer to fly on your days off (OG= 1.0 pay, Premium reserve PR =1.5x pay). OG and PR get added to your guarantee for any trip that touches any of your days off*. You don't get to choose to pick up a trip, instead CS calls you the day before while filling open time and offers it to you if they're out of reserve coverage.

* - The perfect OG/PR trip is one that barely touches your day off and is mostly work when you were going to be on call anyway.


Clint
06-26-2018, 05:21 AM
Copy and paste from the summary page on the APA Reserve User's Guide.

The pilot Reserve system of American Airlines is a bifurcated system consisting of one group of pilots awarded ďLong CallĒ and another group of pilots awarded ďShort CallĒ Reserve lines each month.
Long Call Reserve (LCR)
A pilot awarded an LCR line is considered an LCR pilot for the entire bid month and will perform Long Call Duty on each day of Reserve availability unless converted to Short Call Duty. LCR pilots require a minimum of 12 hours of notice prior to any sequence or RAP award or assignment. LCR pilots are to be contactable at all times during LCR Duty until released from this requirement (e.g. for a required rest period, prior to a DFP or planned absence). A pilot awarded an LCR line will be paid a monthly guarantee of 73 hours.
An LCR pilot may be converted to serve Short Call Duty and will be paid an additional 30 minutes for each day that Short Call Duty is awarded or assigned. LCR to SCR conversions are limited to five involuntary assignments per bid period. There is no limitation to the number of times an LCR pilot can be awarded an SCR conversion.
Short Call Reserve (SCR)
A pilot awarded an SCR line is considered an SCR pilot for the entire bid month and, unless assigned a sequence, usually will perform Short Call Duty on each day of Reserve availability. SCR pilots are usually assigned RAPs and are expected to be contactable during these times. A pilot awarded an SCR line will be paid a monthly guarantee of 76 hours. Pilots awarded an SCR line will participate in a second round of monthly bidding to determine their assigned RAP for each day of Short Call Duty immediately following a DFP or planned absence.
Open Time Coverage
During DOTC, CS will generally assign open sequences that will be operated by Reserve pilots the day before the sequence begins. This process is scheduled to begin each day at 1000 HBT and completed by 1500 HBT. Sequences and RAPs for the 24-hour period beginning at 0200 the next morning are awarded and assigned to QLA pilots. Pilots on Reserve Duty and available for assignment the next day are required to check their activity record (HI1) between 1500 and 1600 HBT to verify assignments made during DOTC.
When sequences for the same day (or next day, after the completion of the DOTC process) become open, CS will generally contact the appropriate pilot or pilots to proffer and/or assign the open sequence. If the assigned pilot is presently in a status that does not allow a contact attempt (e.g. on an FAR rest period), CS will follow contractually required steps to award/assign the pilot.
For all open sequences that permit at least 12 hours of notice, all QLA LCR pilots will be utilized before assigning or awarding a sequence to an SCR pilot.
Generally, in any bid month, a Reserve pilot can be assigned no more than 85 hours of flying.
Certain voluntary flying on days off does not count toward this maximum.

drinksonme
06-26-2018, 06:51 AM
You can't be on reserve and see an uncovered trip and pick it up. CS assigns trips the day before or the day of the trip.

You can volunteer to fly on your days off (OG= 1.0 pay, Premium reserve PR =1.5x pay). OG and PR get added to your guarantee for any trip that touches any of your days off*. You don't get to choose to pick up a trip, instead CS calls you the day before while filling open time and offers it to you if they're out of reserve coverage.

* - The perfect OG/PR trip is one that barely touches your day off and is mostly work when you were going to be on call anyway.


Considering the question came from a JetBlue pilot, you might want to stow the AA lingo 😐.


In case they are reading this

OG= Over Guarantee (reserve pilot option to fly on days off and make over the guarantees of 73 hour for Long call and 76 hours for a short call)

PR = premium reserve or premium pay (1.5x hourly for designated trip. We rarely see this however)

Most trips never make it ďPRĒ because we have something called the ďMUĒ list. (make-up), which is made up of pilots who are lineholders looking for more hours at their normal rate. MU is also on days off. Usually an open trip is covered by a line pilot on MU, or a reserve, long before it gets to premium pay. One of biggest problems here. Premium is light because most pilots on MU just canít help themselves and take the trips.

BeechPilot33
06-26-2018, 07:17 AM
Considering the question came from a JetBlue pilot, you might want to stow the AA lingo 😐.


In case they are reading this

OG= Over Guarantee (reserve pilot option to fly on days off and make over the guarantees of 73 hour for Long call and 76 hours for a short call)

PR = premium reserve or premium pay (1.5x hourly for designated trip. We rarely see this however)

Most trips never make it ďPRĒ because we have something called the ďMUĒ list. (make-up), which is made up of pilots who are lineholders looking for more hours at their normal rate. MU is also on days off. Usually an open trip is covered by a line pilot on MU, or a reserve, long before it gets to premium pay. One of biggest problems here. Premium is light because most pilots on MU just canít help themselves and take the trips.

Should be a code to no MU guy to pick up time until it goes premium. How does Delta premium pickup compare to AA? It seems they make a killing on premium trips. Is it just contract language that needs to be changed or is it a fundamental way that scheduling assigns trips.

Frip
06-26-2018, 10:46 AM
A lot of the MU is actually guys who drop their schedule and rebuild it in MU, and take the easy turns and 1/1's when it suits them.

An evening DFW-TUL 1/1 pays the same 10:20 that a morning 3/3 two day does, and leaves the day free, for example.

More doing this thsn just loading up at straight time, and those doing that are probably playing the IMAX game. In that one a pilot pushes their personal MMAX to some near-zero level, and then bids reserve and gets paid for 73/76 hours with no opportunity for the company to use them, or a line and gets paid the bottom of the LCW for whatever little flying they do.

Works great for those who can't hold summer vacation or holidays off, and are willing to bust hump during boring months like February in exchange for a month or sometimes two "off" with pay.

That said, a method of making all flying over the LCW Premium, and awarded accordingly, is probably worth looking at, along with a means to rotate the premium amingst the group.

Anyone wanting to pursue that should be ready to be called unAmerican, socialist, anti-seniority and be ready to persuade a lot of pilots that they should agree to the slaughter of their own personal sacred cattle.

QuagmireGiggity
06-28-2018, 09:03 PM
Also Long calls have a little more control. You can proffer the day before for open trips the next day. Seniority. Short call you're kind of at their mercy. Long call they can't make you show before noon on your first day. Last day of reserve if they haven't used you 6 hours into a short call rap you are auto released. Long call if they haven't used you by 10 am you're done. Finish after 10 pm the day before your last day on LC you got your last day off for free. Overall I like reserve here. Usually the trip you get is what you do without them adding a lot of crap to it like Eagle did. Do your trip and go home. That convert to short call thing happens but has been very rare for me. They like to use Long calls first, I've heard widebody guys in Miami for instance can fly 70 hours a month while short calls only do 20. Not so big a difference for narrowbody. Long call is completely commutable if you have a decent enough commute.

meyers9163
06-29-2018, 05:12 AM
Well and we are still green book on much of the reserve system. Much of the JCBA in this section has yet to be fully implemented yet. Unsure if it ever will to be honest as they have no reason to nor does APA have any leverage to push the issue.

Sliceback
06-29-2018, 07:28 AM
It’s the end of the month. The enhanced reserve display will show how much guys have flown this month.

As the ads say “current performance isn’t a guaranteed predictor of future performance.”

AAL24
06-29-2018, 08:23 AM
Can somebody explain how you check the enhanced reserves? Iím struggling to figure it out. Iím trying to see how much long call LAX 787 FOs are being used.

A330FoodCritic
06-29-2018, 10:03 AM
Can somebody explain how you check the enhanced reserves? Iím struggling to figure it out. Iím trying to see how much long call LAX 787 FOs are being used.

https://aapilots.aa.com/pilotPrefApp20/

Sliceback
06-29-2018, 04:49 PM
Can somebody explain how you check the enhanced reserves? Iím struggling to figure it out. Iím trying to see how much long call LAX 787 FOs are being used.

Aapilots, personal and profile, enhanced reserve display.
The hours theyíve flown month to date are on the right side. Low guys are single digits, high guys 80+, mid point around 40hrs.

You can also use the N3I function and check the trip awards.
And use the 3XP awards to see whoís on leave, vacation, etc, which might be why their monthly flight hours might not be good comparators.

nAAtive
06-29-2018, 05:03 PM
Aapilots, personal and profile, enhanced reserve display.
The hours theyíve flown month to date are on the right side. Low guys are single digits, high guys 80+, mid point around 40hrs.

You can also use the N3I function and check the trip awards.
And use the 3XP awards to see whoís on leave, vacation, etc, which might be why their monthly flight hours might not be good comparators.

Thatís flying a ton for widebody Guys..... at least compared to DFW

Sliceback
06-29-2018, 06:28 PM
DFW 787 FO is about 60 hrs on the high end and a mid point of 28-30 hrs.

DFW 777 FO is about 80 hrs on the top and 50 +/- at the mid point.

LAX 777 FO is about 70 hrs at the top and 25 hrs +/- at the mid point.

LGA 777 is about 78 hrs at the top and 45 hrs at the mid point.

MIA 777 is about 77 hrs and 50 hrs at the mid point.

Single month snapshots. Might not be the same every month?

Stagnant 777 fleet and growing 787 fleet part of the difference? Have to the pilots trained before a new plane shows up part of the difference? IDK.

nAAtive
06-30-2018, 04:44 AM
DFW 787 FO is about 60 hrs on the high end and a mid point of 28-30 hrs.

DFW 777 FO is about 80 hrs on the top and 50 +/- at the mid point.

LAX 777 FO is about 70 hrs at the top and 25 hrs +/- at the mid point.

LGA 777 is about 78 hrs at the top and 45 hrs at the mid point.

MIA 777 is about 77 hrs and 50 hrs at the mid point.

Single month snapshots. Might not be the same every month?

Stagnant 777 fleet and growing 787 fleet part of the difference? Have to the pilots trained before a new plane shows up part of the difference? IDK.

I keep forgetting summer has already crept upon us. No such thing as sitting around for free right now :)

Name User
06-30-2018, 06:42 AM
DFW 787 FO is about 60 hrs on the high end and a mid point of 28-30 hrs.

DFW 777 FO is about 80 hrs on the top and 50 +/- at the mid point.

LAX 777 FO is about 70 hrs at the top and 25 hrs +/- at the mid point.

LGA 777 is about 78 hrs at the top and 45 hrs at the mid point.

MIA 777 is about 77 hrs and 50 hrs at the mid point.

Single month snapshots. Might not be the same every month?

Stagnant 777 fleet and growing 787 fleet part of the difference? Have to the pilots trained before a new plane shows up part of the difference? IDK.

Wow that is brutal

Arado 234
06-30-2018, 06:49 AM
[...]
Much of the JCBA in this section has yet to be fully implemented yet.
[...]


Why? I am so tired of hearing this! Why even pass anything if it never gets implemented? There should be a mandatory time line in our next contract about implementation.

Name User
06-30-2018, 06:54 AM
Why? I am so tired of hearing this! Why even pass anything if it never gets implemented? There should be a mandatory time line in our next contract about implementation.

The problem with mandatory time lines is they just don't work. It will inevitably get blown.

I agree total BS. Maybe spend negotiating capital on a "fine" for certain unimplemented items.

Sliceback
06-30-2018, 07:54 AM
Wow that is brutal

Median of 25, 45, and 50 hrs is brutal? Thatís 1-3 trips.

PRS Guitars
06-30-2018, 08:28 AM
Median of 25, 45, and 50 hrs is brutal? Thatís 1-3 trips.

Exactly, the high numbers you posted are just that...the highest time guy. There will be 1 or 2 guys every month that get up to that range. There will be 1 or 2 that fly only 20 hours. There are ways to influence your own outcome to some degree (legit, not nefarious). Mainly being smart with your schedule bid. I have a few techniques that I like. About 75% in your status gets you above the coverage line, and thus able to get any days off you want on LC. Also judging the open time vs your availability vs number of reserves and your group standing...and proffering when itís warrented. I recomend aareserve.com along with HI33 for the above. After that...luck plays a large part.

Cheddar
06-30-2018, 03:53 PM
What about a dollar amount added to the pay rates every time a contract item is not implemented?

We agree in the next contract that certain items are in gates. If gate x isnt implemented by date y, there incurs a 1% pay raise penalty for every month until completed. Thatís painful after a few months.

Maybe no more than 3-4 gates with all items included?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

seafeye
07-14-2018, 05:35 AM
I think the number 1 item to be addressed is the scheduling up to 16 hours.
How is this even legal?
If your on reserve. Throw out the contract and live by 117. Itís our only restriction.

ORDinary
07-14-2018, 05:38 AM
I think the number 1 item to be addressed is the scheduling up to 16 hours.
How is this even legal?
If your on reserve. Throw out the contract and live by 117. Itís our only restriction.

117 allows for 16 hours if you are short call.

seafeye
07-14-2018, 05:48 AM
117 allows for 16 hours if you are short call.

Exactly. No need for a contract. Even regionals have a max 14 hour limit.

redbaronahp
07-14-2018, 06:17 AM
The contract for our wholly owned regional airline PSA doesnít allow anyone to be scheduled past 13 hours. They can work up to 117 limit if delayed but can not be scheduled to go past 13. This includes reserve.

seafeye
07-14-2018, 07:49 AM
Section 15 of contract. Section L Filling of Open Time 3. Filling of Open Time -Basic Rules d. "Unless a Reserve Pilot is the only QLA Pilot, Reserve pilots awarded/assigned FDP's will be buffered with thirty (30) minutes from FAR 117 FDP limitations measured from the beginning of a pilot's Scheduled RAP if on Short Call Duty, or from the sequence sign-in if on Long Call Duty. This provision may be waived with Pilot consent."
Aka, only 15:30!!!


Is their a reason why the company canít follow what was negotiated?

Name User
07-14-2018, 09:26 AM
117 allows for 16 hours if you are short call.

That's kinda a BS example though. Yeah, you're "on duty" while in bed sleeping? Or lounging around the house?

Reserves still must comply with lineholder duty limits as well.

ORDinary
07-14-2018, 10:00 AM
That's kinda a BS example though. Yeah, you're "on duty" while in bed sleeping? Or lounging around the house?

You mean getting woken up by snoring in the crash pad...?

Name User
07-14-2018, 10:18 AM
You mean getting woken up by snoring in the crash pad...?

I've put my time into various pads throughout the years but don't see how that is the Company's problem. Some guys pay the extra to have a room to themselves. Others like me are cheap and wore earplugs. It sucks but let's not deflect this.

ORDinary
07-14-2018, 01:04 PM
I've put my time into various pads throughout the years but don't see how that is the Company's problem. Some guys pay the extra to have a room to themselves. Others like me are cheap and wore earplugs. It sucks but let's not deflect this.

Yeah, I was mostly kidding, I guess that wasn't clear.

N10DJ
07-17-2018, 06:03 PM
If you pick up premium on a DFP. Is the credit added to your GTD for your next RAP. Did just under 14 hours the other day but my time on enhanced reserve display doesnít show it.

PRS Guitars
07-17-2018, 09:45 PM
If you pick up premium on a DFP. Is the credit added to your GTD for your next RAP. Did just under 14 hours the other day but my time on enhanced reserve display doesnít show it.

Pretty sure itís pay no credit, so it wonít help your reserve grouping. Iím not sure what GTD is...

Clint
07-18-2018, 04:25 AM
If you pick up premium on a DFP. Is the credit added to your GTD for your next RAP. Did just under 14 hours the other day but my time on enhanced reserve display doesnít show it.
It is pay, no credit. You will see it on your PPROJ, not your GTD.

Iím not sure what GTD is...
Greater Time to Date. It is the hours flown and credit that determine reserve variance groups.

Covfefe
07-18-2018, 04:37 AM
Questions for the wide body reserve guys:

-How often are you flying on long/short call?
-Commuters... when sitting a 6 day block of short call, are you able to get released from that block early (day 5 for ex) since all the trips are 3 days?
-Any advice for commuting to long call?

seafeye
07-19-2018, 08:32 AM
I just got a 4 day trip. Pays 3 days cause it ends in a red eye. 15:59 duty day on day 1.
Ends up getting in at 6am on my day off.
Still considered a day off in the eyes of APA and the company.

Reserve needs to get a whole lot better in the next contract. How you can work almost everyday on reserve and not break guarantee? Itís APA math.

Cheddar
07-19-2018, 08:46 AM
Have you sent soundoffs, emails and/or started the survey process? Please do! I agree that our reserve rules need major work!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

seafeye
07-19-2018, 09:05 AM
Yes I did the survey And called APA to share my disappointment. Reality is, we have no reserve rules.
Anything we fly over 4:22 in a day is free.
16 hours for them to find us something.
This 4 day trip is worth 18 hours.
Itís over 4 days. We need that 5 hours min day.
Not trip credit. Because as you can see they credit our trips 3 hours in the first day. 7 for the second. So if you have a two day trip. They can add a round trip onto your schedule and you get nothing extra.

OVBIII
07-19-2018, 10:01 AM
I just got a 4 day trip. Pays 3 days cause it ends in a red eye. 15:59 duty day on day 1.
Ends up getting in at 6am on my day off.
Still considered a day off in the eyes of APA and the company.

Reserve needs to get a whole lot better in the next contract. How you can work almost everyday on reserve and not break guarantee? Itís APA math.

The 15:59 duty day seems suspect to me ( not on your end... theirs). I thought we (as RSV) had a ď30 minute bufferĒ. In essence you couldnít get scheduled past 15:30 duty day.

Edit: I have no doubt there is some loop hole that lets them.

seafeye
07-19-2018, 10:03 AM
Section 15 of contract. Section L Filling of Open Time 3. Filling of Open Time -Basic Rules d. "Unless a Reserve Pilot is the only QLA Pilot, Reserve pilots awarded/assigned FDP's will be buffered with thirty (30) minutes from FAR 117 FDP limitations measured from the beginning of a pilot's Scheduled RAP if on Short Call Duty, or from the sequence sign-in if on Long Call Duty. This provision may be waived with Pilot consent."



Just hasnít been implemented yet.
Yes. A contract that is amendable in a year and a half. Still has sections not implemented.

OVBIII
07-19-2018, 10:11 AM
Just hasnít been implemented yet.
Yes. A contract that is amendable in a year and a half. Still has sections not implemented.

Gotcha, I was just searching through the contract. thanks for the section!

BeechPilot33
07-24-2018, 06:15 AM
I just got a 4 day trip. Pays 3 days cause it ends in a red eye. 15:59 duty day on day 1.
Ends up getting in at 6am on my day off.
Still considered a day off in the eyes of APA and the company.

Reserve needs to get a whole lot better in the next contract. How you can work almost everyday on reserve and not break guarantee? It’s APA math.

Wow, how does the union figure getting done at WORK on a day off after working all night is a day off?

What is min days off for SCR and LCR?

nimslow
07-24-2018, 07:19 AM
Wow, how does the union figure getting done at WORK on a day off after working all night is a day off?

What is min days off for SCR and LCR?

LCR and SCR have the same number of day off. 12 days off in a 30 day month, and 13 in a 31 day month.

PRS Guitars
07-24-2018, 07:34 AM
Wow, how does the union figure getting done at WORK on a day off after working all night is a day off?



They will say ďit doesnít happen that oftenĒ. Which I think was true, but middle management has figured out how to exploit this. There are pilots on property who have no clue that itís done differently at other airlines. They know profit sharing is better at other airlines, but have no clue about the little things.

nAAtive
07-24-2018, 09:12 AM
Wow, how does the union figure getting done at WORK on a day off after working all night is a day off?

What is min days off for SCR and LCR?

Certain scenarios you get additional time off. Long call, or short call with an early RAP. Short calls with a later RAP may not get any additional time off.

When you get in you get debrief time, 12 hours domicile rest, then get the 24 hours shifted.

Dobbs18
07-24-2018, 10:18 AM
I just got a 4 day trip. Pays 3 days cause it ends in a red eye. 15:59 duty day on day 1.
Ends up getting in at 6am on my day off.
Still considered a day off in the eyes of APA and the company.

Reserve needs to get a whole lot better in the next contract. How you can work almost everyday on reserve and not break guarantee? Itís APA math.
Everyone needs to fill out the pre section 6 survey so these guys know how bad it is and lots and lots of observer reports. My last 2 trips Iíve had to fill out 4 observer reports!!

jcountry
07-25-2018, 09:21 AM
Wow, how does the union figure getting done at WORK on a day off after working all night is a day off?

What is min days off for SCR and LCR?

Couple of important insights into our union:

-It has been controlled for a loooooong time by very senior widebody captains.

-Work rules never affect senior widebody captains.

(I think this will change soon. An enormous number of those guys will retire shortly, and a couple of the worst ones have already been voted off the BOD. Iím hoping that as soon as the BOD loses its current majority of ďeat your youngĒ folks, we will see that change.)

dfwcrj9
07-25-2018, 10:15 AM
reserve rules here are way worst than at the last 2 regionals ive been at. something needs to be done

cactusmike
07-25-2018, 09:05 PM
Couple of important insights into our union:

-It has been controlled for a loooooong time by very senior widebody captains.

-Work rules never affect senior widebody captains.

(I think this will change soon. An enormous number of those guys will retire shortly, and a couple of the worst ones have already been voted off the BOD. I’m hoping that as soon as the BOD loses its current majority of “eat your young” folks, we will see that change.)

I don’t disagree with you. I believe that the mindset of “I’m senior so it doesn’t affect me” is so shortsighted and misguided. Personally, I am fairly senior on the list as a whole but in my position I am junior and if I was able to go to LAX I would be a bottom feeder forever. Reserve affects guys in the top 15% of the seniority list, and it just takes a reduction in your fleet/seat/base to make you go from midpack line holder to reserve.

It’s incumbent on all of us to make the rules better. Chances are, no matter your position now, you could face being on reserve.

seafeye
07-29-2018, 09:36 AM
Just got assigned another turd sandwich.

Got a trip assigned to me outside of 12 hours. Should go to a long call but they are out of them.
Iím good for a 3 day trip starting today. Got a 4 day starting tomorrow. Iíll lose 2 days off. But then I start a 4 day trip right after.
So yes 9 days straight.
But.... I get 30.5 hours off in Detroit so that is why they can schedule me that.

Where is APA? How can we possibly have a contract that allows for scheduling to do this? Worse than a regional. Far worse. Go to any other major but AA.

OVBIII
07-29-2018, 09:50 AM
Just got assigned another turd sandwich.

Got a trip assigned to me outside of 12 hours. Should go to a long call but they are out of them.
Iím good for a 3 day trip starting today. Got a 4 day starting tomorrow. Iíll lose 2 days off. But then I start a 4 day trip right after.
So yes 9 days straight.
But.... I get 30.5 hours off in Detroit so that is why they can schedule me that.

Where is APA? How can we possibly have a contract that allows for scheduling to do this? Worse than a regional. Far worse. Hi to any other major but AA.

Man that sucks. Out of curiosity, are you going from RSV this month to a line next month?

seafeye
07-29-2018, 11:25 AM
Yes. Can do reserve anymore. Worse than a regional.

Name User
07-29-2018, 11:48 AM
Reserve is always bad over the summer. If you think a four day with a red eye pays crappy on reserve just wait until you get one on a line. I'd much rather do low time low paying trips on reserve. I don't like red eyes but would gladly do them on reserve as they traditionally burned four days while you only were gone from home 1.5.

OVBIII
07-29-2018, 01:21 PM
Try calling Contract Admin, I am really curious as to how you got assigned that 4-day. When you bid for August, did you select "allow rest at outstations"? If so, that may be one way to avoid that in the future.
If you call them, please let me know what their answer is, regarding your RSV assignment.

Dobbs18
07-29-2018, 01:41 PM
Try calling Contract Admin, I am really curious as to how you got assigned that 4-day. When you bid for August, did you select "allow rest at outstations"? If so, that may be one way to avoid that in the future.
If you call them, please let me know what their answer is, regarding your RSV assignment.

Yeah me too! I thought you had to agree to getting a 30hr rest away from base, that they couldn't just assign you it away from domicile.

seafeye
07-29-2018, 02:19 PM
I called contract compliance. They said they ďhopeĒ to include all rests to be in base. In the next contract. But right now. 30 hours in an overnight is considered rest. Basically just 117 regs.

Couple things raise flags.
I got given the trip almost 22 hours in advance. Iím short call. They say that Iím the only available but I see others. They tell me that my list is not accurate. (Aapilots).

They are using me on 2 of my days off.
I do not get those days off because I have vacation later in the month and have >11 days off.
The pilot should have to volunteer to give up days off. Not the other way round. And they should be paid at 150% above guarantee.

In now doing 9 days on. 3 off (maybe) then 6 straight again. (Sim and then a 3 day). (Red eye of course) trying to trade but red,redder, redest....

A total **** show.

Rawhide16
07-29-2018, 02:20 PM
Try calling Contract Admin, I am really curious as to how you got assigned that 4-day. When you bid for August, did you select "allow rest at outstations"? If so, that may be one way to avoid that in the future.
If you call them, please let me know what their answer is, regarding your RSV assignment.

Recommend calling Contract COMPLIANCE...not Admin. Contract Admin are retired schedulers that arenít worth a damn. Contract Compliance are volunteer pilots and will give you the best guidance more often than not.

Rawhide16
07-29-2018, 02:22 PM
I called contract compliance. They said they ďhopeĒ to include all rests to be in base. In the next contract. But right now. 30 hours in an overnight is considered rest. Basically just 117 regs.

Couple things raise flags.
I got given the trip almost 22 hours in advance. Iím short call. They say that Iím the only available but I see others. They tell me that my list is not accurate. (Aapilots).

They are using me on 2 of my days off.
I do not get those days off because I have vacation later in the month and have >11 days off.
The pilot should have to volunteer to give up days off. Not the other way round. And they should be paid at 150% above guarantee.

In now doing 9 days on. 3 off (maybe) then 6 straight again. (Sim and then a 3 day). (Red eye of course) trying to trade but red,redder, redest....

A total **** show.

How were you notified of the trip? Weíre you on a DFP?

seafeye
07-29-2018, 02:24 PM
Today. Day 1 reserve. (1 of 3).
July 29-31 reserve.
Aug 1-2 off
Aug 3-6 trip.

They called me today during my RAP

Called 5 different people. Basically they all say itís legal. But to call the CP and ask for a day off.

So now...
Day 1 reserve
Day 2 trip
Day 3 trip
Day 4 trip
Day 5 trip
Day 6 trip
Day 7 trip
Day 8 trip
Day 9 trip
Day 10 off
Day 11 off
Day 12 off

Rawhide16
07-29-2018, 02:40 PM
Today. Day 1 reserve. (1 of 3).
July 29-31 reserve.
Aug 1-2 off
Aug 3-6 trip.

They called me today during my RAP

Called 5 different people. Basically they all say itís legal. But to call the CP and ask for a day off.

There were no other QLA SC reserves?

seafeye
07-29-2018, 02:43 PM
Apparently no short calls or long calls available.

Regionalsuck
07-29-2018, 02:47 PM
Just got assigned another turd sandwich.

Got a trip assigned to me outside of 12 hours. Should go to a long call but they are out of them.
I’m good for a 3 day trip starting today. Got a 4 day starting tomorrow. I’ll lose 2 days off. But then I start a 4 day trip right after.
So yes 9 days straight.
But.... I get 30.5 hours off in Detroit so that is why they can schedule me that.

Where is APA? How can we possibly have a contract that allows for scheduling to do this? Worse than a regional. Far worse. Go to any other major but AA.

There is NO way in hell I would accept that garbage, lose 2 days off, work 9 days straight and sit in Detroit on a day off. I'd do my 2 scheduled days then end the trip in domicile and go home. Totally unacceptable.

OVBIII
07-29-2018, 02:47 PM
Apparently no short calls or long calls available.

Friend, thatís all unsat. They are not doing their due diligence. If you decide that you are unfit at any point, call in fatigued. Please donít risk your ticket to help them out.

Saabs
07-29-2018, 02:47 PM
Did you not place a DFP on your first day off?

Buzzlightyear
07-29-2018, 02:50 PM
9 days in a row sounds fatiguing. My last fatigue was due to a reassignment, talked to the duty chief he said it was ďoperationalĒ and I would be paid. I wasnít paid. AAís policy is now punitive toward fatigue calls. Just a heads up.

seafeye
07-29-2018, 02:50 PM
Fist time I got a hybrid line. I bid for my line. Then bid for the two days reserve I had too. (Aug 29/30). Then I bid for my reserve rap times. Didnít know to change days from DO to DFP.
How many times do I have to log in and bid ****?

drinksonme
07-29-2018, 04:17 PM
Holy sh!!!t, just call in sick for it. You obviously are not okay with it and itís causing you distress. Just call in and be done with it. Sick doesnít always me a runny nose and a cough. Mental health is wellness too.

Frip
07-30-2018, 05:19 AM
Did you not place a DFP on your first day off?

Essential Action going from RSV to Line

Clint
07-30-2018, 06:08 AM
I got given the trip almost 22 hours in advance. Iím short call. They say that Iím the only available but I see others. They tell me that my list is not accurate. (Aapilots).
That list isn't accurate; it mixes LC and SC and it shows everybody with 4 days available at the end of the month regardless of actual availability. AAReserve is much more accurate. Lots of additional factors that could make you the only eligible pilot; 30/168 restrictions, pre-noon sign in for LC, previous trip block in time, etc. If you think you've been assigned incorrectly, provide the employee number of any other pilot and they'll tell you why that person wasn't used. I've done this many times - most of the time it's a FAR 117 issue that I can verify with HI33.

They are using me on 2 of my days off.
I do not get those days off because I have vacation later in the month and have >11 days off.
APA has put out guidance on this at the beginning of every month for the last three months called "Attention all RESERVE Pilots Awarded a Line Next MONTH." It details this exact problem and how to fix it - placing a DFP on the 1st would have prevented this.

seafeye
07-30-2018, 06:55 AM
So this is how it goes?

Bid on the 10th. Award on the 16th (maybe)

If you get reserve bid RAP times by the 26th. Award 28th?
Bid for golden days.

If you get a Hybrid line then bid reserve days. Then bid for RAP times. On the 26th?
Bid for golden days as well.
I sent an email to bid for my Hybrid days. Got the ones I asked for. But still doesnít show on calendar view.


I guess If you get a couple days off at the beginning of the month and you have a Hybrid line Bid DFP days. (No idea how I bid to change those days)


The whole system is a cluster ****. Check here, bid here, oops you didnít check the box. Your screwed.
My schedule I was awarded on PBS shows I had those two days off. I made plans.
If they are some kinda fluid special twerky days then they shouldnít be listed as off days. Iím trying to move houses and planning my off days carefully. We donít need to be bidding every afternoon for some specific loophole the company is currently exploiting.
A day off is a day off IMO. Not flying a redeye and getting in at 6am.
Not getting special fluid kinda sort of off days.

Pilots getting forced to fly on days off should be paid 200%. Period.

Frip
07-30-2018, 07:28 AM
A day off is a day off IMO. Not flying a redeye and getting in at 6am.

Pilots getting forced to fly on days off should get paid 200%

And it should not ever be simply for the company's convenience.

Pilot's choice or genuinely unavoidable circumstances only.

Let your reps know if this is important to you.

All of you who think days off are supposed to be days off

This should be a huge item for Section 6

Until then, yes, you have to read all of the instructions.

EMBFlyer
07-30-2018, 08:17 AM
So this is how it goes?

Bid on the 10th. Award on the 16th (maybe)

If you get reserve bid RAP times by the 26th. Award 28th?
Bid for golden days.

If you get a Hybrid line then bid reserve days. Then bid for RAP times. On the 26th?
Bid for golden days as well.
I sent an email to bid for my Hybrid days. Got the ones I asked for. But still doesnít show on calendar view.


I guess If you get a couple days off at the beginning of the month and you have a Hybrid line Bid DFP days. (No idea how I bid to change those days)


The whole system is a cluster ****. Check here, bid here, oops you didnít check the box. Your screwed.
My schedule I was awarded on PBS shows I had those two days off. I made plans.
If they are some kinda fluid special twerky days then they shouldnít be listed as off days. Iím trying to move houses and planning my off days carefully. We donít need to be bidding every afternoon for some specific loophole the company is currently exploiting.
A day off is a day off IMO. Not flying a redeye and getting in at 6am.
Not getting special fluid kinda sort of off days.

Pilots getting forced to fly on days off should be paid 200%. Period.

Nope. Not how it works at all. There's a document on AAPilots, under the PBS page that explains Hybrid lines in their entirety.

OVBIII
07-30-2018, 10:08 AM
The email APA just put out makes it sound like you might be entitled to premium pay for the trip going into an off day.
I need to reread it and the LOA to verify. Hopefully you can get some extra money for the trip.

Definitely call admin or compliance about the email that was just sent out

redbaronahp
08-01-2018, 03:00 AM
How many PHL/190/I FOís from the most junior short call to the most junior long call?

PRS Guitars
08-01-2018, 07:45 AM
How many PHL/190/I FO’s from the most junior short call to the most junior long call?

For August, looks like about 8 training lines (ie still in training for the whole month) then 23 short call, then a line holder, then long call reserve. Both of the later are March 2018 hires. August only, so it probably ebbs and flows and YMMV...

Edit: was curious so checked July as well. 8 training, 30 SC, then Jan 2018 LH/LCR

redbaronahp
08-01-2018, 08:20 AM
For August, looks like about 8 training lines (ie still in training for the whole month) then 23 short call, then a line holder, then long call reserve. Both of the later are March 2018 hires. August only, so it probably ebbs and flows and YMMV...

Edit: was curious so checked July as well. 8 training, 30 SC, then Jan 2018 LH/LCR

Thanks. I start 8/7 and am trying to figure out which commutable base in the drop to bid to sit short call reserve the shortest time possible.

Name User
08-01-2018, 09:06 AM
PHL is an excellent commuter base. Lots of inexpensive pads in Essignton that are (mostly) mainline pilot only. Trnasportation via SEPTA bus is cheap and runs on a decent regular schedule. Bus can be tracked via SEPTA app.

I had a pad in LGA once, what a hellhole. Essington is so much nicer. Nice neighborhood and good people. It's blue collar.

DCA is expensive and that's even if you can get a pad.

Not sure about MIA but I know guys stay at the Sherry. Expensive to get to and from. But on the beach.

Know nothing about LAX. But hotels are expensive. Some live in an RV parked at employee parking. Sounds fun.

redbaronahp
08-01-2018, 10:54 AM
Know nothing about LAX. But hotels are expensive. Some live in an RV parked at employee parking. Sounds fun.

The RV lot on the show LA to VEGAS makes the employee lot look fun. Something to think about. 😜

redbaronahp
08-01-2018, 11:07 AM
PHL is an excellent commuter base. Lots of inexpensive pads in Essignton that are (mostly) mainline pilot only. Trnasportation via SEPTA bus is cheap and runs on a decent regular schedule. Bus can be tracked via SEPTA app.

In your opinion, would it be better to have PHL/190 out the gate for the easy commute, affordable crash pad, and avoiding reserve assignments from multiple airports,

OR

suck it up and take group II equipment elsewhere and bid into PHL later?

Iíve got no reservations with training on a new plane in a year or so.

Name User
08-01-2018, 12:26 PM
In your opinion, would it be better to have PHL/190 out the gate for the easy commute, affordable crash pad, and avoiding reserve assignments from multiple airports,

OR

suck it up and take group II equipment elsewhere and bid into PHL later?

I’ve got no reservations with training on a new plane in a year or so.
If you want to end up in Philly anyway you'd be nuts for not bidding the 190, assuming you can get it.

As far as what else to bid I have no experience with the LAA bases in NYC and commuting there. I only had to cover LGA. And it was painful enough.

Judging by the class drops you're most likely to get LAX, JFK or MIA out of the gate, assuming you live on the east coast that narrows it down to JFK or MIA which would depend on where you commute from.

seafeye
08-03-2018, 05:39 AM
The email APA just put out makes it sound like you might be entitled to premium pay for the trip going into an off day.
I need to reread it and the LOA to verify. Hopefully you can get some extra money for the trip.

Definitely call admin or compliance about the email that was just sent out


Premium pay was declined.
Citing that the days off werenít ďHard Days OffĒ.
I guess the difference between a DO and a DFP go way back in the AA contract. Like early 90ís.
Most people I spoke with said just bite your tongue till 2020 and we get a new contract. But Iím not naÔve enough to believe we will get a contact that early. Iím thinking 2023.

OVBIII
08-03-2018, 10:37 AM
Premium pay was declined.
Citing that the days off werenít ďHard Days OffĒ.
I guess the difference between a DO and a DFP go way back in the AA contract. Like early 90ís.
Most people I spoke with said just bite your tongue till 2020 and we get a new contract. But Iím not naÔve enough to believe we will get a contact that early. Iím thinking 2023.

Thanks for the update. It sucks, but thanks none the less

Clint
08-04-2018, 03:37 AM
Premium pay was declined.
Citing that the days off werenít ďHard Days OffĒ.
I guess the difference between a DO and a DFP go way back in the AA contract. Like early 90ís.
Most people I spoke with said just bite your tongue till 2020 and we get a new contract. But Iím not naÔve enough to believe we will get a contact that early. Iím thinking 2023.
Right, thatís the point of the APA email that was previously mentioned. Though not contractually defines, a lineholder DO (Day Off) really means nothing - itís just a day when you have no duty scheduled. A DFP (Dity Free Period - 24 on schedule) is a day when you are free from all Duty. Replacing a DO with a 24 prevents you from being flown into an off day.

Buzzlightyear
08-04-2018, 08:22 AM
Right, thatís the point of the APA email that was previously mentioned. Though not contractually defines, a lineholder DO (Day Off) really means nothing - itís just a day when you have no duty scheduled. A DFP (Dity Free Period - 24 on schedule) is a day when you are free from all Duty. Replacing a DO with a 24 prevents you from being flown into an off day.
Iíve been involuntarily flown into a DFP while on RSV. It was also a Golden day. On probation at the time. Union said to fly and grieve it. These reshuffling of DFPís makes us feel better but in the end this company does what it wants. Spoke with contract admin and they talked a big game, mentioning premium pay for the entire trip. In the end I was left trying to make my own deal with a scheduling sup/senior. Premium was a absolute no as a RSV guy after the assignment was flown.

Just like the current fatigue system where 90% of the time itís not deemed operational by AA mgmt and we lose pay. The current system is heavily tilted in the companyís favor and APA just shrugs.

Name User
08-04-2018, 08:59 AM
Right, thatís the point of the APA email that was previously mentioned. Though not contractually defines, a lineholder DO (Day Off) really means nothing - itís just a day when you have no duty scheduled. A DFP (Dity Free Period - 24 on schedule) is a day when you are free from all Duty. Replacing a DO with a 24 prevents you from being flown into an off day.

That's a good explanation. Thank you!

Name User
08-04-2018, 09:00 AM
Iíve been involuntarily flown into a DFP while on RSV. It was also a Golden day. On probation at the time. Union said to fly and grieve it. These reshuffling of DFPís makes us feel better but in the end this company does what it wants. Spoke with contract admin and they talked a big game, mentioning premium pay for the entire trip. In the end I was left trying to make my own deal with a scheduling sup/senior. Premium was a absolute no as a RSV guy after the assignment was flown.

Just like the current fatigue system where 90% of the time itís not deemed operational by AA mgmt and we lose pay. The current system is heavily tilted in the companyís favor and APA just shrugs.
I'm fine with breaking of the contract however the contract should spell out the payment necessary in order to break that portion of it.

I get this is an airline and we need flexibility.

ORDinary
08-04-2018, 09:19 AM
I'm fine with breaking of the contract however the contract should spell out the payment necessary in order to break that portion of it.

I get this is an airline and we need flexibility.

The problem is that if you give the company too much flexibility they will understaff the airline. There has to be a hard line somewhere. I'm not okay with contract violations, ever.

Hubble15
08-04-2018, 01:59 PM
"Just like the current fatigue system where 90% of the time it’s not deemed operational by AA mgmt and we lose pay. The current system is heavily tilted in the company’s favor and APA just shrugs."

Check the stats on that gripe ... pretty sure we're doing better than peer airlines on FT. I think we're above 70% "operational". I myself am batting 1.000 -- never been denied pay for FT, including one where my kids were a factor (outweighed by their DH-to-live conversion, I argued successfully).

PRS Guitars
08-04-2018, 02:28 PM
Check the stats on that gripe ... pretty sure we're doing better than peer airlines on FT. I think we're above 70% "operational". I myself am batting 1.000 -- never been denied pay for FT, including one where my kids were a factor (outweighed by their DH-to-live conversion, I argued successfully).

I’ve had one Fatigue and was paid. I outlined all of the details, then wrote a very detailed fatigue report, and sent it to the APA fatigue committee to review before submitting it. Well worth the time to save my 15 hours of pay. Not saying this will work every time, but start here.

Buzzlightyear
08-04-2018, 04:19 PM
"Just like the current fatigue system where 90% of the time itís not deemed operational by AA mgmt and we lose pay. The current system is heavily tilted in the companyís favor and APA just shrugs."

Check the stats on that gripe ... pretty sure we're doing better than peer airlines on FT. I think we're above 70% "operational". I myself am batting 1.000 -- never been denied pay for FT, including one where my kids were a factor (outweighed by their DH-to-live conversion, I argued successfully).
How recent was your last fatigue? Thereís been a regime change. APA fatigue committee has been getting a beat down.

From the fatigue committee: anyone who has under a 10 hr duty day or less than 6 hours flight for the day has a target on their back from scheduling for a reassignment. When reassigned if you declare youíre not fit we are losing these cases. Company wants more flexibility, some pilots say no and the company is taking their pay away. It is operational in nature yet we are losing these during committee review.

Battlinbear21
08-05-2018, 04:12 AM
Can anyone tell me what the code XR is on a H1? Major foul play in Philly this weekend. They would have let me walk into a 117 violation if I didnt call. New guys make sure screen shot all H1s and sign ins on CCI. After a decade of playing the games itís hard to remember I have Absolutely no rights no protections no nothing until my line check. In 5 months. Send me back to the school house please!!!! Rsv oh you suck worse than LGA!! :)

OVBIII
08-05-2018, 04:44 AM
Can anyone tell me what the code XR is on a H1? Major foul play in Philly this weekend. They would have let me walk into a 117 violation if I didnt call. New guys make sure screen shot all H1s and sign ins on CCI. After a decade of playing the games itís hard to remember I have Absolutely no rights no protections no nothing until my line check. In 5 months. Send me back to the school house please!!!! Rsv oh you suck worse than LGA!! :)

I looked at the FOS removal codes in the Flight 831 handbook. It says XR means cancellation removal.

Battlinbear21
08-05-2018, 04:52 AM
I looked at the FOS removal codes in the Flight 831 handbook. It says XR means cancellation removal.

Hey thanks. Knew they had to be somewhere. And itís really not that bad... I still got to sleep in my own bed. Even tho I didnt walk in the door until 0330. Just hurts when I should have been home today at 9am w 15 hours of credit to put me on the bottom of the draft list. Now Iím #1 w only 5.37. Big picture big picture. Pain will be over soon. A lot sooner than many before me.

PRS Guitars
08-05-2018, 07:33 AM
Hey thanks. Knew they had to be somewhere. And itís really not that bad... I still got to sleep in my own bed. Even tho I didnt walk in the door until 0330. Just hurts when I should have been home today at 9am w 15 hours of credit to put me on the bottom of the draft list. Now Iím #1 w only 5.37. Big picture big picture. Pain will be over soon. A lot sooner than many before me.

Youíre example is exactly why Id like to see sequence protection for reserves. Lots of other scenarios out there that can bite a reserve. Sequence protection would fix it. Not holding my breath though to see the APA fight for it.

By sequence protection I just mean that a reserve on a trip that gets canceled or modified gets to keep the credit for the footprint of the sequence.

OVBIII
08-05-2018, 07:53 AM
Youíre example is exactly why Id like to see sequence protection for reserves. Lots of other scenarios out there that can bite a reserve. Sequence protection would fix it. Not holding my breath though to see the APA fight for it.

By sequence protection I just mean that a reserve on a trip that gets canceled or modified gets to keep the credit for the footprint of the sequence.

I am going to be a squeaky wheel on this one with our NC, itís bitten me a few times. And I truly believe if you (as a RSV) are assigned a trip, you own it like a line holder would.

Name User
08-05-2018, 04:17 PM
Youíre example is exactly why Id like to see sequence protection for reserves. Lots of other scenarios out there that can bite a reserve. Sequence protection would fix it. Not holding my breath though to see the APA fight for it.

By sequence protection I just mean that a reserve on a trip that gets canceled or modified gets to keep the credit for the footprint of the sequence.

What can I say I completely disagree. And this is someone who has bid reserve in the past and will in the future. A reserve plugs holes and is just that, someone used as a "reserve". Total waste of negotiating capital giving them trip credit.

Reserves are paid to be available. I would much rather see a higher number of days off vs trip credit. Remember reserves get paid to not work as well, line guys do not.

jcountry
08-05-2018, 05:09 PM
This thread shows how important it is to fix our union.

Pay attention!

Vote the bad guys out!!

If we could change about 5 people in APA leadership and replace them with non-sociopaths, we would see rapid improvement.

A really good guide is the list of ďyesĒ voters on that LOS/min day crapfest. All of those guys need to be fired! And the guy who negotiated it by himself, of course.

Itís critical that we fix this union ASAP! All it will take is a few people voting. So many of the senior guys are so apathetic that they havenít voted in decades.

Just vote!

PRS Guitars
08-05-2018, 05:13 PM
What can I say I completely disagree. And this is someone who has bid reserve in the past and will in the future. A reserve plugs holes and is just that, someone used as a "reserve". Total waste of negotiating capital giving them trip credit.

Reserves are paid to be available. I would much rather see a higher number of days off vs trip credit. Remember reserves get paid to not work as well, line guys do not.

First, It costs almost nothing, only costs the company if the reserve in question goes over guarantee. It mainly gives the reserve pilot the higher GTD for grouping.

Here is one that happened to me. 4 day trip, on day one we were so late that they took us off the next days sequence and overnighted us two nights in the layover city. They dead headed us on day three to pick up our original sequence. So down to 3 duty periods the trip became a 3.5 to 1 rig trip and credited much less than originally scheduled to, yet I worked the same exact footprint. A line holder would get the original pay, I got a very reduced credit, which hurt my group standings.

This lead to me working more days, which you say you like to see us work less days, this is one component of that.

Subpilot
08-05-2018, 05:22 PM
First, It costs almost nothing, only costs the company if the reserve in question goes over guarantee. It mainly gives the reserve pilot the higher GTD for grouping.

Here is one that happened to me. 4 day trip, on day one we were so late that they took us off the next days sequence and overnighted us two nights in the layover city. They dead headed us on day three to pick up our original sequence. So down to 3 duty periods the trip became a 3.5 to 1 rig trip and credited much less than originally scheduled to, yet I worked the same exact footprint. A line holder would get the original pay, I got a very reduced credit, which hurt my group standings.

This lead to me working more days, which you say you like to see us work less days, this is one component of that.

I Agree with this.

AFTrainerGuy
08-05-2018, 05:48 PM
I Agree with this.

Gotta say as a pilot who will only ever sit reserve (4+ yrs on property and sitting reserve in base), Iím gonna agree. I get paid to ďfill the holesĒ. Iíd much rather see lineholders get trip ownership and protection than reserves. I choose to sit reserve and understand Iím at mercy of company when Iím on. Part of only working 6-9 days a month for 73. But, letís protect guys who bid a trip and let them get what they bid. Non-popular view but it is what it is.

Frip
08-06-2018, 05:36 AM
sequence protection I just mean that a reserve on a trip that gets canceled or modified gets to keep the credit for the footprint of the sequence.

In short, what Name User said...

I am basically a career reservist. I have held a line in the past and may some time again, but do not really expect to, so I am definitely interested in improvements to the reserve system.

System-wise, transparency and some sort of useful reserve display are at the top of my personal list.

Work rules wise - Making a Day Off actually a Day Off is.

Less days on and/or higher guarantees in that order.

Sequence Protection for reserves as you say doesn't cost the company until one goes over guarantee, it does "cost" the other pilots on the reserve list, by assigning groups according to how much work was assigned vs. how much work was done.

It'd be a wash long term, more or less, so I don't personally really care, but other than how it "feels" when your reserve trip goes south, what is the real point? Reserves are paid to be available, not for what they work. Unless again one does break guarantee.

There are many, many much more important things to spend the negotiating capital and the negotiatirs' time on, imo.

AFTrainerGuy
08-06-2018, 07:12 AM
sequence protection I just mean that a reserve on a trip that gets canceled or modified gets to keep the credit for the footprint of the sequence.

In short, what Name User said...

I am basically a career reservist. I have held a line in the past and may some time again, but do not really expect to, so I am definitely interested in improvements to the reserve system.

System-wise, transparency and some sort of useful reserve display are at the top of my personal list.

Work rules wise - Making a Day Off actually a Day Off is.

Less days on and/or higher guarantees in that order.

Sequence Protection for reserves as you say doesn't cost the company until one goes over guarantee, it does "cost" the other pilots on the reserve list, by assigning groups according to how much work was assigned vs. how much work was done.

It'd be a wash long term, more or less, so I don't personally really care, but other than how it "feels" when your reserve trip goes south, what is the real point? Reserves are paid to be available, not for what they work. Unless again one does break guarantee.

There are many, many much more important things to spend the negotiating capital and the negotiatirs' time on, imo.

Much more eloquently said than I tried to do.

Dobbs18
08-06-2018, 06:15 PM
Gotta say as a pilot who will only ever sit reserve (4+ yrs on property and sitting reserve in base), Iím gonna agree. I get paid to ďfill the holesĒ. Iíd much rather see lineholders get trip ownership and protection than reserves. I choose to sit reserve and understand Iím at mercy of company when Iím on. Part of only working 6-9 days a month for 73. But, letís protect guys who bid a trip and let them get what they bid. Non-popular view but it is what it is.

Man what base and plane are you on?! I can tell you as a rsv guy in CLT/320/FO that is not the case here. I see both points, but if they assign me a trip and I show up for it I want the credit. I will agree that as a rsv we shouldnt have the same protections as a line holder...they want to reassign me till the cows come home on my rsv days, fine, just make sure i get whatever is the greater credit of the two. It should never never be less than what you were assigned to do in the first place.

Chuckie
08-06-2018, 06:49 PM
I choose to sit reserve and understand Iím at mercy of company when Iím on. Part of only working 6-9 days a month for 73.

You lost me there. Care to share what base and equipment you are on that only works 6-9 days a month? I'd be a lot more amenable to your argument if I was only working that much every month. Case in point: Tomorrow is August 7th and how many days have I worked? 6, and one of those is into my scheduled day off. There's no way I'm only going to work 3 more days this month.

Frip
08-07-2018, 02:39 AM
I want credit for work I didn't do...

Seems odd, given the demographic.

aa73
08-07-2018, 03:24 AM
You lost me there. Care to share what base and equipment you are on that only works 6-9 days a month? I'd be a lot more amenable to your argument if I was only working that much every month. Case in point: Tomorrow is August 7th and how many days have I worked? 6, and one of those is into my scheduled day off. There's no way I'm only going to work 3 more days this month.

Iím DCA 737 on SC reserve and only worked 7 days in July... 33hr month. Apparently we are an anomaly but hey keep it going!

AFTrainerGuy
08-07-2018, 05:06 AM
You lost me there. Care to share what base and equipment you are on that only works 6-9 days a month? I'd be a lot more amenable to your argument if I was only working that much every month. Case in point: Tomorrow is August 7th and how many days have I worked? 6, and one of those is into my scheduled day off. There's no way I'm only going to work 3 more days this month.

Iím in CLT, 320 FO. July I worked 9 days, just looked

Chuckie
08-07-2018, 10:20 AM
Must be nice! Send some of that love out west.

Frip
08-07-2018, 12:15 PM
Four plus years now averaging about seven days and ~ 20 block hrs per month.

Of course, there was that other four plus years of involuntarily maxing out every month...

And a lot of years in between

Paperboi
08-07-2018, 04:50 PM
What are you lga 320 FOs blocking on SC reserve?

Name User
08-08-2018, 04:55 AM
What are you lga 320 FOs blocking on SC reserve?

Enhanced reserve will show it. Just go to aapilots.com and look it up.

seafeye
08-08-2018, 06:46 AM
Man what base and plane are you on?! I can tell you as a rsv guy in CLT/320/FO that is not the case here. I see both points, but if they assign me a trip and I show up for it I want the credit. I will agree that as a rsv we shouldnt have the same protections as a line holder...they want to reassign me till the cows come home on my rsv days, fine, just make sure i get whatever is the greater credit of the two. It should never never be less than what you were assigned to do in the first place.

So after I finished my 9 days on.
The first of the four days was July 30/31. Then Aug 1/2. Which were my DO days.

I got reassigned ( go figure).
The credit for the trip was
Day 1, 7:14
Day 2, 7:06
Day 3, 3 hours
Day 4, 3 hours.

The trip was initially worth 22 hours. I ended up getting 20:40.
But because the trip started in July a reserve month. Iím not subject to pay protection. I donít get even the min 5 hours for working my days off.

So as a reserve:
No pay protection
No min day pay
No premium pay for a DO. Only DFP

A trip rig did nothing for me as I flew all the heavy days on my reserve days. I flew 66 hours for the month of July.

What I think should have happened?
Trip should be paid OG 1.5x because of being forced to work on a day off. In this case 2 days off.

Name User
08-09-2018, 05:24 AM
I'm having a little hard time following but you flew 66 hours for 73 or 76 hours pay.

Guess how much a line holder has to fly for that same pay?

I do totally agree about flying into a day off. Just principle. That should be fixed.

Mover
08-09-2018, 08:15 AM
So after I finished my 9 days on.
The first of the four days was July 30/31. Then Aug 1/2. Which were my DO days.

I got reassigned ( go figure).
The credit for the trip was
Day 1, 7:14
Day 2, 7:06
Day 3, 3 hours
Day 4, 3 hours.

The trip was initially worth 22 hours. I ended up getting 20:40.
But because the trip started in July a reserve month. Iím not subject to pay protection. I donít get even the min 5 hours for working my days off.

So as a reserve:
No pay protection
No min day pay
No premium pay for a DO. Only DFP

A trip rig did nothing for me as I flew all the heavy days on my reserve days. I flew 66 hours for the month of July.

What I think should have happened?
Trip should be paid OG 1.5x because of being forced to work on a day off. In this case 2 days off.

You were reassigned as a reserve? Why did you answer your phone or accept an illegal RA?

seafeye
08-09-2018, 01:10 PM
I'm having a little hard time following but you flew 66 hours for 73 or 76 hours pay.

Guess how much a line holder has to fly for that same pay?

I do totally agree about flying into a day off. Just principle. That should be fixed.


Reserve should be looked at daily. Not monthly.
Dougie comes to us and asks us to be on call for 18-19 days a month. In base for the SCís. In exchange for having this, much needed resource we are paid 76 hours a month. About 4:22/day if you break it down.
Now say on day 1 you fly 8 hours.
Does that reduce your responsibility for being in reserve the rest of the month?
Your still doing the remaining reserve days.
But somehow the company got almost 4 extra hours out of you.
You flew 3:38 for free.

There are many ways to look at this. Even if you flew 3 hours got your min day credit of 5:10. Itís not really 5:10. Itís 4:22.
Line holders get 5:10. Reserves 4:22.
Reserves fly 9 hours in a day. And itís worth 4:22.

We need to be charging the company per day for our services. Not per month. Unless of course you think flying for free is acceptable.


And as a reserve we have to accept a reassignment. I spoke to the union and they said that reserves have no choice but to accept.

mainlineAF
08-09-2018, 01:31 PM
Reserve should be looked at daily. Not monthly.

Dougie comes to us and asks us to be on call for 18-19 days a month. In base for the SCís. In exchange for having this, much needed resource we are paid 76 hours a month. About 4:22/day if you break it down.

Now say on day 1 you fly 8 hours.

Does that reduce your responsibility for being in reserve the rest of the month?

Your still doing the remaining reserve days.

But somehow the company got almost 4 extra hours out of you.

You flew 3:38 for free.



There are many ways to look at this. Even if you flew 3 hours got your min day credit of 5:10. Itís not really 5:10. Itís 4:22.

Line holders get 5:10. Reserves 4:22.

Reserves fly 9 hours in a day. And itís worth 4:22.



We need to be charging the company per day for our services. Not per month. Unless of course you think flying for free is acceptable.





And as a reserve we have to accept a reassignment. I spoke to the union and they said that reserves have no choice but to accept.



And the company would say youíre getting paid for doing nothing on the days they donít use you.

Which airline does reserve like you describe?

Cheddar
08-09-2018, 03:38 PM
seafeye,

The company has to use a monthly reserve system due to fight time duty time limits. Although I abhor working for free, Iím not sure how the company could realistically staff a daily reserve concept. Iím all for a system that pays us more for doing less, and Iím begging anyone that will listen for a 15 on at the ACD (5:15 or whatever it goes to - my vote is ACD @6). Same benefits as a lineholder when it comes to trip protection and ownership/PR, etc. Also tradeable reserve days/blocks and OT p/u for reserves.

Iím all ears to something better though that has a shot of passing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

seafeye
08-09-2018, 04:27 PM
And the company would say youíre getting paid for doing nothing on the days they donít use you.

Which airline does reserve like you describe?

Actually the regionals are now paying reserve as a day rate. And you are not doing nothing.
You have to be a reasonable distance to the airport and be fit for duty to leave for up to 4 days. You must be rested enough to work up to 16hours. You cannot drink. You cannot make firm plans. You have to be rested. You are an immediate necessary resource for the company.
Reserve is far from doing nothing. And anyone that thinks that it is then they need to do it for a couple months. Ie July/Aug.
we work for free because we fly 66-76 hours a month and still have reserve days.
Or we fly for free because we only get paid 4:22/day regardless of how many hours we fly.

Anytime we are a resource for the company they should pay. Wether we are flying or sitting at home waiting for the call. Or give us the flexibility to not answer when we get the call.

Cheddar
08-09-2018, 04:58 PM
Iím not sure what is different in your regional scenario. I really want to understand what the differences are, but I am a bit slow at times! Are you saying a regional pays the difference of FT vs reserve pay as OG on every trip?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Battlinbear21
08-10-2018, 06:34 AM
Iím very new to AA, but already bidding 75% on 190. Been here 5 months. Seems the long calls get abused more than short. Working up to 72 but not breaking it. Also, Iím very tempted to just stay on it to avoid rsv on G2. Take the pay hit for QOL. But, come November maybe things will be much better w sequence protection. That does happen w the rigs right? Or is it entirely separate?

PRS Guitars
08-10-2018, 11:16 AM
I’m very new to AA, but already bidding 75% on 190. Been here 5 months. Seems the long calls get abused more than short. Working up to 72 but not breaking it. Also, I’m very tempted to just stay on it to avoid rsv on G2. Take the pay hit for QOL. But, come November maybe things will be much better w sequence protection. That does happen w the rigs right? Or is it entirely separate?

We already have sequence protection (with “recovery obligation”) for line holders. Maybe I’m confused about what you’re asking though.

OVBIII
08-10-2018, 01:12 PM
We already have sequence protection (with ďrecovery obligationĒ) for line holders. Maybe Iím confused about what youíre asking though.

PRS, do you think if this person bids G2 (on the next bid) they will still WTH them on the 190? I know they are keeping the 190 a bit longer. That might be a gamble worth taking. They could get G2 pay whilst still being on the 190. I just donít know if they are still doing the 190 WTH.

Name User
08-10-2018, 01:27 PM
PRS, do you think if this person bids G2 (on the next bid) they will still WTH them on the 190? I know they are keeping the 190 a bit longer. That might be a gamble worth taking. They could get G2 pay whilst still being on the 190. I just donít know if they are still doing the 190 WTH.

Only bid what you want.

OVBIII
08-10-2018, 01:42 PM
Only bid what you want.

Oh I completely agree. Just trying to provoke thought on all the processes.

Frip
08-10-2018, 08:02 PM
Reserves get paid to be available, iaw with the contract.

It doesn't matter how much or what reserve pilots fly, until and unless they break guarantee, as tallied up by the other work/pay rules and rigs.

Yes, of course I'd like to see less abailable days and higher guarantees - and in that order.

I'd really like to see days off actually be days off.

cactusmike
08-10-2018, 09:22 PM
I’m very new to AA, but already bidding 75% on 190. Been here 5 months. Seems the long calls get abused more than short. Working up to 72 but not breaking it. Also, I’m very tempted to just stay on it to avoid rsv on G2. Take the pay hit for QOL. But, come November maybe things will be much better w sequence protection. That does happen w the rigs right? Or is it entirely separate?

Long call does get called out before SC. If you live in base then SC would normally allow you to dodge a lot of flying. Summer is the exception. Even on the 777 we are seeing tons of OG and SC flying. Friday night had two open trips and no SC reserves left. (Left seat)

As far as the new Long rate I’m only guessing but you should see the slash trips not get dumped into open time as often. I don’t see them going away because slash trips are marketing driven, I.e. mixed fleets going into the same city doesn’t allow for efficient crew swaps or RONs. So those trips will pay more for less time away, which is always nice. Soft time is your friend and is the enemy of the pairing optimizer.

PRS Guitars
08-11-2018, 08:57 AM
Yes, of course I'd like to see less abailable days and higher guarantees - and in that order.

I'd really like to see days off actually be days off.

I agree with all of the above and by making a dayís work pay a dayís wage (5:15 per day of res/training/vacation) would solve the problem. One could then bid a 14 day reserve line that pays 73.5 or a 15 day that pays 78.75. And no such thing as a DFP or DO or golden days, or movable...itís just a day off.

Paperboi
08-11-2018, 10:03 AM
What's diff between DFP and a day off?

Frip
08-11-2018, 12:39 PM
"It's just a day off...

And inviolable, except by the chouce of the pilot and at Premium Rates. (Yes, I know that someone is going to get stuck out with a broken airplane/blizzard/whatever sometime... Still premium...)

Battlinbear21
08-12-2018, 04:03 AM
Rsv question. I was Given a sequence today that started w a double DH to DCA to operate 1 leg to BOS. Overnight and DH back to phl tomorrow. Tomorrow is my last day of the rsv stretch. I told Scheduling Iím no showing those DHs today and just driving to DC. Plan is to contact tracking and no show for tomorrow and just non rev back to dc as soon as we land. Here is the question. Am I going To be credit protected for tomorrow if I get Off today or will they assign me a rap tomorrow and most likely give me a out and back. (Iíll be #1 on draft list) would it better to take hotel tonight and no show at 5am tomorrow or can I do It today and be ďoffĒ tomorrow?

PRS Guitars
08-12-2018, 04:23 AM
Rsv question. I was Given a sequence today that started w a double DH to DCA to operate 1 leg to BOS. Overnight and DH back to phl tomorrow. Tomorrow is my last day of the rsv stretch. I told Scheduling Iím no showing those DHs today and just driving to DC. Plan is to contact tracking and no show for tomorrow and just non rev back to dc as soon as we land. Here is the question. Am I going To be credit protected for tomorrow if I get Off today or will they assign me a rap tomorrow and most likely give me a out and back. (Iíll be #1 on draft list) would it better to take hotel tonight and no show at 5am tomorrow or can I do It today and be ďoffĒ tomorrow?

The DH stays in for pay purposes (credit in your case). It never hurts to just confirm that with them on the phone. You are supposed to call to get released, however if you have only DHís on the last day, they are required to release you. There is an LOA on this.

Battlinbear21
08-12-2018, 04:37 AM
The DH stays in for pay purposes (credit in your case). It never hurts to just confirm that with them on the phone. You are supposed to call to get released, however if you have only DHís on the last day, they are required to release you. There is an LOA on this.

Very good. Iíll read the loas as I didnt See much in the rsv guideline book. Appreciate the fast response

PRS Guitars
08-12-2018, 05:21 AM
Very good. Iíll read the loas as I didnt See much in the rsv guideline book. Appreciate the fast response

I need to add something. Donít call them to ask for release with 10 hours of rest left, if you do, you are now open to an RA! Iím also not sure about this rule with reserves. A call to the Contract Hotline could help.

Clint
08-13-2018, 01:21 AM
The DH stays in for pay purposes (credit in your case). It never hurts to just confirm that with them on the phone. You are supposed to call to get released, however if you have only DHís on the last day, they are required to release you. There is an LOA on this.
The LOA can be found on the APA members website. From the home page > Quick Links > Contract QRH > Additional Contractual References > Deadhead to Live Leg Settlement.

That settlement says that the company cannot involuntarily convert a pilot from a deadhead-only duty period to a live leg without 10 hours notice (10 hours prospective rest is required by FAR 117). This is why you want to wait until you're inside 10 hours to no-show the deadhead. And one additional point - don't ever ask to "be released" as this can affect your per diem and rest period to the next day (the situation at hand). Simply ask to no-show the deadhead.

OVBIII
08-13-2018, 06:31 AM
The LOA can be found on the APA members website. From the home page > Quick Links > Contract QRH > Additional Contractual References > Deadhead to Live Leg Settlement.

That settlement says that the company cannot involuntarily convert a pilot from a deadhead-only duty period to a live leg without 10 hours notice (10 hours prospective rest is required by FAR 117). This is why you want to wait until you're inside 10 hours to no-show the deadhead. And one additional point - don't ever ask to "be released" as this can affect your per diem and rest period to the next day (the situation at hand). Simply ask to no-show the deadhead.

I am in that exact situation today. Late arrival into SLC due to PHX weather. Here is a question concerning 117 layover rest and our FMv1.
117 says we need 10 hours with 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity. The FM says 10 hours after released from duty (with the 8 hours). Yíall must forgive me Iím exhausted so the verbiage might be a little off.
Hereís the question. What constitutes ďreleased from dutyĒ? The CA Iím flying with said that itís 15 minutes after block in. (He certainly could be right) I made the arguement that itís once at the hotel, (I cited the fact what if it takes an hour to get to the hotel)
Does anyone have a clearer picture? Yet again Iím exhausted. Got in at 2:30AM and the hotel started their construction (literally) right outside my door at 7AM.

mainlineAF
08-13-2018, 06:47 AM
I am in that exact situation today. Late arrival into SLC due to PHX weather. Here is a question concerning 117 layover rest and our FMv1.

117 says we need 10 hours with 8 hours uninterrupted sleep opportunity. The FM says 10 hours after released from duty (with the 8 hours). Yíall must forgive me Iím exhausted so the verbiage might be a little off.

Hereís the question. What constitutes ďreleased from dutyĒ? The CA Iím flying with said that itís 15 minutes after block in. (He certainly could be right) I made the arguement that itís once at the hotel, (I cited the fact what if it takes an hour to get to the hotel)

Does anyone have a clearer picture? Yet again Iím exhausted. Got in at 2:30AM and the hotel started their construction (literally) right outside my door at 7AM.



You get 10 hours at the hotel. So from the time you get to your room you have ten 10 hours until your van time.

If the captain disagrees tell him what time you will be on a van. Donít ask.

OVBIII
08-13-2018, 06:55 AM
You get 10 hours at the hotel. So from the time you get to your room you have ten 10 hours until your van time.

If the captain disagrees tell him what time you will be on a van. Donít ask.
Thanks man.

mainlineAF
08-13-2018, 06:59 AM
Thanks man.



No prob. And the company agrees with the 10 hours as well. I never get any pushback when i say what time I will be ready.

The thought process behind the 10 hours is you need 8 hours of sleep opportunity so you need an hour to relax and get ready for bed then in the morning an hour to wake up, eat and get ready.

QuagmireGiggity
08-13-2018, 07:58 AM
reserve rules here are way worst than at the last 2 regionals ive been at. something needs to be done

What regional was that?

Name User
08-13-2018, 11:08 AM
You get 10 hours at the hotel. So from the time you get to your room you have ten 10 hours until your van time.

If the captain disagrees tell him what time you will be on a van. Donít ask.

This is actually incorrect but if the company isn't pushing back then go with it.

The 117 rules were designed to give 10 hours inbetween duty off 15 after block in and show time to account for hotel travel time.

And...you don't have to block out at the new scheduled push time...it's perfectly fine to leave early...one of the most asinine things I witness is FAs who will sit on the airplane for 15 minutes to wait till 30 prior to board and CAs who won't release the brake until new scheduled push. That has nothing to do with the FAR. It's strictly based on coming on duty.

mainlineAF
08-13-2018, 11:15 AM
This is actually incorrect but if the company isn't pushing back then go with it.



The 117 rules were designed to give 10 hours inbetween duty off 15 after block in and show time to account for hotel travel time.



And...you don't have to block out at the new scheduled push time...it's perfectly fine to leave early...one of the most asinine things I witness is FAs who will sit on the airplane for 15 minutes to wait till 30 prior to board and CAs who won't release the brake until new scheduled push. That has nothing to do with the FAR. It's strictly based on coming on duty.



Yea they arenít pushing back at all on it. They typically will alter our departure times to reflect 10 hours at the hotel before I even call.

I have had gate agents tell me they canít close the door more than 10 prior from the new scheduled departure time. I donít fight them about it but it sure is dumb.

Name User
08-13-2018, 12:04 PM
Yea they arenít pushing back at all on it. They typically will alter our departure times to reflect 10 hours at the hotel before I even call.

I have had gate agents tell me they canít close the door more than 10 prior from the new scheduled departure time. I donít fight them about it but it sure is dumb.

I think that has to do with the policy of not closing before 10 prior even with a new posted time. Although if everyone is there, yeah...

We are just numbers and do what we are told. Policies are for the lowest common denominator....



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