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View Full Version : Supreme court ruling...


GuppyPuppy
06-27-2018, 07:27 AM
Can't really tell if this also effects ALPA, or just public unions too. Anyone with insight or understanding on this?

USA TODAY: Supreme Court deals major blow to nation's public employee unions

https://usat.ly/2yJIISg

GP


terminal
06-27-2018, 07:33 AM
It COULD affect ALPA if, say,some scab is upset that he has to pay union dues and goes to court.

Itís absolutely BS. They get the negotiated benefits and the payscale of the Union but donít want to buy into it.

Idiot voters thinking he represents the ďworking classĒ

jtrain609
06-27-2018, 07:52 AM
Can't really tell if this also effects ALPA, or just public unions too. Anyone with insight or understanding on this?

USA TODAY: Supreme Court deals major blow to nation's public employee unions

https://usat.ly/2yJIISg

GP

The ruling doesn't apply to private sector unions, but I imagine it's only a matter of time before the challenge is made.


captjns
06-27-2018, 08:06 AM
In recent years, so-called Right to Work groups as well as some conservatives on the court have pushed for it to be overturned. Wednesday, nearly half of all states have laws on the books that allow broad fair share fees for public employees.

The case was brought by Mark Janus, an Illinois public sector employee, who challenged the fees. He said that because he is a government employee, issues germane to collective bargaining are inherently political. He argued that the First Amendment protected him from having to support such political expression.

Janus has been represented in the challenge by groups such as the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation and the Liberty Justice Center.

The American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, which represents public sector employees, has described the challenge as a threat to American workers.

The public sector unions argue that they are required by law to represent all employees regardless of if they are members and that no one is required to join the union.

If non-members don't have any obligation to pay fair share fees for the collective bargaining obligations, they would become free riders, benefiting from the representation without sharing the costs, the unions say. The coffers of public sector unions would also suffer if non-members were able to get services for free.



https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/27/politics/supreme-court-union-fees-decision/index.html?utm_source=CNN-News-Alerts&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Supreme+Court+deals+major+blow+to+pub lic+sector+unions21554d87-00c5-4fb1-98d2-64c79cd2feda&utm_term=2d329b07-e777-b76f-a5a6-ca93dec57b33

queue
06-28-2018, 08:01 AM
The ruling doesn't apply to private sector unions, but I imagine it's only a matter of time before the challenge is made.


Maybe it would force ALPA to deliver RESULTS instead of the tablescraps we get. This TA is sub-standard in pay and language. The loopholes in the verbiage are completely unacceptable.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 09:02 AM
No one should have to join a club with forced dues in order to work for the government.

In terms of private sector, no one should have to do it there either, but it should be a choice.

Also keep in mind that unions are the largest Democrat slush funding source there is.

GogglesPisano
06-28-2018, 09:06 AM
With Kennedy retiring it's headed to the private sector next.

Yay! Lower wages and worse working conditions. 'Cause Freedom!!!

GogglesPisano
06-28-2018, 09:10 AM
No one should have to join a club with forced dues in order to work for the government.

In terms of private sector, no one should have to do it there either, but it should be a choice.

Also keep in mind that unions are the largest Democrat slush funding source there is.

No one should be allowed to leech off a "club" that negotiates pay/work rules.

If a person chooses to decline membership or not pay dues, the union should cut him loose. He will then be at the mercy of his employer in regards to negotiating a compensation package. History shows he will be disappointed. But hey, it's all about "right to work" (for less) so, best of luck to him.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 09:11 AM
No one should have to join a club with forced dues in order to work for the government.

In terms of private sector, no one should have to do it there either, but it should be a choice.

Also keep in mind that unions are the largest Democrat slush funding source there is.

And corporations help fund Republicans. Yay.

I know at the bargaining table corporations are using all their leverage to pay me and my family as little as possible. My union is the only one trying to raise my family's standard of living.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 09:12 AM
With Kennedy retiring it's headed to the private sector next.

Yay! Lower wages and worse working conditions. 'Cause Freedom!!!

Yep. I hope you all enjoyed the good years of being a pilot.

Pilots will be the FIRST ones to start not paying union dues if not required.

N311JB
06-28-2018, 09:12 AM
No one should have to join a club with forced dues in order to work for the government.

In terms of private sector, no one should have to do it there either, but it should be a choice.

Also keep in mind that unions are the largest Democrat slush funding source there is.

Do you feel the same way about NFL players kneeling during the anthem or do you have Fox News caned answer for that?

Av8tr1
06-28-2018, 09:20 AM
No one should be allowed to leech off a "club" that negotiates pay/work rules.

If a person chooses to decline membership or not pay dues, the union should cut him loose. He will then be at the mercy of his employer in regards to negotiating a compensation package. History shows he will be disappointed. But hey, it's all about "right to work" (for less) so, best of luck to him.

But isnít leaching exactly what the unions are doing? If you join a airline that has a union you are not given a choice but to join. They get to take part of your pay regardless. And the first year at most airlines you have to pay and still donít get representation. How is that not leaching.

Iíve always had a problem with being ďforcedĒ to join a union. I think your idea of the union only representing those that want union representation is a great idea. At least then people get a choice. Iíd definitely value my union membership if it was a choice I make but since I donít get a choice Iím getting robbed by both management AND my union.

There is a ton of value in collective bargaining and the industry has seen a considerable benefit from it. But forcing everyone to join the union is just as bad as some of the crap we see from airline management.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 09:22 AM
But isnít leaching exactly what the unions are doing? If you join a airline that has a union you are not given a choice but to join. They get to take part of your pay regardless. And the first year at most airlines you have to pay and still donít get representation. How is that not leaching.

Iíve always had a problem with being ďforcedĒ to join a union. I think your idea of the union only representing those that want union representation is a great idea. At least then people get a choice. Iíd definitely value my union membership if it was a choice I make but since I donít get a choice Iím getting robbed by both management AND my union.

There is a ton of value in collective bargaining and the industry has seen a considerable benefit from it. But forcing everyone to join the union is just as bad as some of the crap we see from airline management.

In your ideal world where you choose not to join or pay dues, what pay, rules and benefits do you work under?

GogglesPisano
06-28-2018, 09:34 AM
But isn’t leaching exactly what the unions are doing? If you join a airline that has a union you are not given a choice but to join. They get to take part of your pay regardless. And the first year at most airlines you have to pay and still don’t get representation. How is that not leaching.

I’ve always had a problem with being “forced” to join a union. I think your idea of the union only representing those that want union representation is a great idea. At least then people get a choice. I’d definitely value my union membership if it was a choice I make but since I don’t get a choice I’m getting robbed by both management AND my union.

There is a ton of value in collective bargaining and the industry has seen a considerable benefit from it. But forcing everyone to join the union is just as bad as some of the crap we see from airline management.

How are unions leeching when they negotiate the very pay and benefits the employee is enjoying? There's a cost to negotiations. It's only fair the people pay it.

Every pilot is free to find employment at a non-union carrier -- or in corporate aviation. The facts are irrefutable -- the pay in those sectors are lower.

Name one airline that was union that voted to decertify and become a non-union shop.

There's a reason airline pilots unionize -- self-interest.

There's a reason unions charge fees -- it costs money to negotiate and represent a pilot when he sits at that long table without a cup of coffee.

For the sake of argument let's say we go full on "right to work" in this industry and some pilots (being pilots) choose to opt out of dues/representation. That pilot is now free to negotiate (or more likely his employer will offer a take-it-or-leave-it package.)

1) Do you think his new compensation will be higher or lower?

2) What type of effect will that have on the rest of the pilot group?

Right to work is a Republican/Chamber of Commerce wet dream come true. But it's all about "Freedom" and "Rights.":rolleyes:

kevbo
06-28-2018, 09:36 AM
Yep. I hope you all enjoyed the good years of being a pilot.

Pilots will be the FIRST ones to start not paying union dues if not required.

A free ride rule works best to hurt unskilled labor. The government is the employer of last resort for most people so they have the weakest players. Unionized pilots are too powerful so they are directly limited by the RLA. Unions in Texas are struggling to exist, they offer very little over a non-Union shop anymore.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 09:50 AM
A free ride rule works best to hurt unskilled labor. The government is the employer of last resort for most people so they have the weakest players. Unionized pilots are too powerful so they are directly limited by the RLA. Unions in Texas are struggling to exist, they offer very little over a non-Union shop anymore.

Large numbers of pilots, if allowed, will stop paying union dues. They will say it is on principle, but it will be individual greed.

My union will have less funds with which to represent me in all manners, the result will be less favorable results.

More pilots will see less results and mistakenly think it's simply because their union is not effective, and will rationalize not paying union dues on principle (greed).

The cycle repeats.

We are so dumb it hurts.

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:07 AM
No one should be allowed to leech off a "club" that negotiates pay/work rules.

If a person chooses to decline membership or not pay dues, the union should cut him loose. He will then be at the mercy of his employer in regards to negotiating a compensation package. History shows he will be disappointed. I completely agree. If you want the benefit of a union then join and pay the dues. If you don't, then you shouldn't be forced to.

However if a company wants to hire only union people, they should be allowed to even though it is tacky. But a company should not be forced to have union employees either. It's all about freedom of choice.

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:07 AM
And corporations help fund Republicans. Yay.You do realize that just as many corporations fund Democrats too, right?


Data on Campaign Finance, Super PACs, Industries, and Lobbying ? OpenSecrets (http://www.OpenSecrets.org)

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:08 AM
Yay! Lower wages and worse working conditions. 'Cause Freedom!!!False cause. One thing will not necessarily lead to another.

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:08 AM
Large numbers of pilots, if allowed, will stop paying union dues. They will say it is on principle, but it will be individual greed.It isn't "greed" to want to keep more of your own money :rolleyes:

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:09 AM
Do you feel the same way about NFL players kneeling during the anthem or do you have Fox News caned answer for that?I don't watch FNC or NFL. I think for myself.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 10:17 AM
It isn't "greed" to want to keep more of your own money :rolleyes:

Um, it is greed when that "own money" you are referring to is from a very rich *collective* bargaining agreement.

Non-union wages of similar operations in aviation are lower. So that small portion of his "own money" wouldn't have been his in the first place if not for his union.

Av8tr1
06-28-2018, 10:19 AM
In your ideal world where you choose not to join or pay dues, what pay, rules and benefits do you work under?

I worked in IT for many years before going to the airlines. Not one of my employers had unions. I made well over 6 figures in IT. My first professional job in IT had a salary in the high 5 figures. It would be comparable to a regional FO job but with much better pay. As I moved up in my career I was able to leave every job for a higher paying job. Still no union.

Pay was based on market demand. During the Y2K and the dot.com days companies were offering car leases as part of sign on bonuses. I had many companies pay 100% of my medical benefits. Other than my college education 100% of my training was paid for by my employer. That included single occupancy rooms at good hotels, all meals paid for and a rental car should I choose. In most cases the employer would have paid for my college education too. Still no union.

I never had to negotiate for anything on my job and raises were regular and expected based on specific criteria in the employee manual. I also got additional raises based on merit.

All without a union.

To be clear I am not advocating to get rid of all unions in aviation. I am only advocating for pilots to have a choice. But I suspect the unions are afraid of that.

I do see the benefits of collective bargaining but I donít think without it we will see an apocalypse. In fact I think if the seniority system went away airlines will increasingly fall over over themselves to poach pilots from competing airlines. We are already seeing this with bonuses for prior 121 time at many regionals. If things continue the way they are we will likely see legacies doing the same.

tonsterboy5
06-28-2018, 10:34 AM
I am simply going to say that in my last job I was a part of the non union group due to the state I worked in. Every single one of our benefits was better than that of the union group. More days off, more personal days, more vacation days, better 401k. I made me wonder what the purpose of the union was.

Now when it comes to airlines unions are needed to negotiate contracts when the market has an oversupply of pilots, right now airlines are fighting for pilots and want to offer some things to attract more pilots but the unions won't allow without a complete change of the contract. I.E. Company wants to offer bonus or increase entry level pay to get more applicants through the door. The union says no because it doesn't help captains. So the end result is no one getting better pay. I would rather half get better pay than none. The result of not attracting new pilots causes regionals to cancel flights, canceled flights ultimately causes a loss of job of those that voted no to increase pay for half the group.

This also extends to contract amendments, Unions push the no vote for small improvements to reserve rules or benefits due to not including improvements for other areas of the contract or not going far enough. The only thing that forces a company to offer more is they see a need to, if they saw a need to offer 200% open time but not 250% voting no and leaving it at 150% causes no one to win.

A business will increase things as the market dictates, the unions at this point are slowing things down.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 10:36 AM
I worked in IT for many years before going to the airlines. Not one of my employers had unions. I made well over 6 figures in IT. My first professional job in IT had a salary in the high 5 figures. It would be comparable to a regional FO job but with much better pay. As I moved up in my career I was able to leave every job for a higher paying job. Still no union.

Pay was based on market demand. During the Y2K and the dot.com days companies were offering car leases as part of sign on bonuses. I had many companies pay 100% of my medical benefits. Other than my college education 100% of my training was paid for by my employer. That included single occupancy rooms at good hotels, all meals paid for and a rental car should I choose. In most cases the employer would have paid for my college education too. Still no union.

I never had to negotiate for anything on my job and raises were regular and expected based on specific criteria in the employee manual. I also got additional raises based on merit.

All without a union.

To be clear I am not advocating to get rid of all unions in aviation. I am only advocating for pilots to have a choice. But I suspect the unions are afraid of that.

I do see the benefits of collective bargaining but I donít think without it we will see an apocalypse. In fact I think if the seniority system went away airlines will increasingly fall over over themselves to poach pilots from competing airlines. We are already seeing this with bonuses for prior 121 time at many regionals. If things continue the way they are we will likely see legacies doing the same.

Apples and oranges, but we'll keep it simple.

I have been at JB for many years now. Many without a union. During those years, we we're never treated like you say you were treated in your previous line of work.

No big above industry raises. No full paid healthcare. No car leases, still can't believe JB didn't lease me a new car, but they didn't. In fact, we nearly always trailed our union peers at other airlines, sometimes by a lot. And they would change very consequential work rules and profit sharing plans via email.

So, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, no thanks.

Back to my original question of you. In your ideal world where you worked for a union airline, let's say Delta, and you were given the option to not pay union dues at all, what pay, rules and benefits would you expect to work under?

Av8tr1
06-28-2018, 10:39 AM
How are unions leeching when they negotiate the very pay and benefits the employee is enjoying? There's a cost to negotiations. It's only fair the people pay it.

Every pilot is free to find employment at a non-union carrier -- or in corporate aviation. The facts are irrefutable -- the pay in those sectors are lower.

Name one airline that was union that voted to decertify and become a non-union shop.

There's a reason airline pilots unionize -- self-interest.

There's a reason unions charge fees -- it costs money to negotiate and represent a pilot when he sits at that long table without a cup of coffee.

For the sake of argument let's say we go full on "right to work" in this industry and some pilots (being pilots) choose to opt out of dues/representation. That pilot is now free to negotiate (or more likely his employer will offer a take-it-or-leave-it package.)

1) Do you think his new compensation will be higher or lower?

2) What type of effect will that have on the rest of the pilot group?

Right to work is a Republican/Chamber of Commerce wet dream come true. But it's all about "Freedom" and "Rights.":rolleyes:

I completely understand how the economy works. I get that it costs money for lawyers to negotiate deals.

However see my post above about my experience in IT. I didnít have to negotiate anything during my entire IT career. The companies I worked for negotiated with each other to see who could offer the best total package to get me to come work for them. And itís not like I was some IT genius who created some magic function that changed the landscape of social media. I was a regular run of the mill IT worker. I was probably below average to my contemporaries. Yet companies would fall all over themselves to make better offers than thier competition. And it didnít cost me a dime or require me to join a union.

By example, I think the seniority system is the worst thing to happen to pilots. This was a union idea. A pilot puts 5 years into a company and if they leave they start all over at the bottom of the pay scale. How convenient for management. Thier pilots are literal hostages to the seniority system. We have the union to thank for this abomination that so many pilots think is the greatest thing since the invention of beer.

There are some really great reasons for pilots to band together, safety for example is a great reason for pilots to stand up to management. A union would be perfect for that. But I think unions have kept the pilot group from even better pay than we have today through things like the seniority system. Something needs to change.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 10:41 AM
I am simply going to say that in my last job I was a part of the non union group due to the state I worked in. Every single one of our benefits was better than that of the union group. More days off, more personal days, more vacation days, better 401k. I made me wonder what the purpose of the union was.

Now when it comes to airlines unions are needed to negotiate contracts when the market has an oversupply of pilots, right now airlines are fighting for pilots and want to offer some things to attract more pilots but the unions won't allow without a complete change of the contract. I.E. Company wants to offer bonus or increase entry level pay to get more applicants through the door. The union says no because it doesn't help captains. So the end result is no one getting better pay. I would rather half get better pay than none. The result of not attracting new pilots causes regionals to cancel flights, canceled flights ultimately causes a loss of job of those that voted no to increase pay for half the group.

This also extends to contract amendments, Unions push the no vote for small improvements to reserve rules or benefits due to not including improvements for other areas of the contract or not going far enough. The only thing that forces a company to offer more is they see a need to, if they saw a need to offer 200% open time but not 250% voting no and leaving it at 150% causes no one to win.

A business will increase things as the market dictates, the unions at this point are slowing things down.

Couldn't disagree more. You are posting in a JB thread. If you knew how JB pay and benefits compared to our union peers you would be rethinking your position. I suspect that those companies were paying the non-union guys better to prove a point. In a vacuum, without the threat of a union, I don't believe that would be the case.

Like I said to the other guy, worked at non-union JB for years. None of those awesome things happened. Below average pay, benefits and work rules. Detrimental rule, benefit and pay changes via forced email. NO NEW CAR LEASES!!!

Been there, don't that, got the T-shirt. No thanks.

BeatNavy
06-28-2018, 10:44 AM
I am simply going to say that in my last job I was a part of the non union group due to the state I worked in. Every single one of our benefits was better than that of the union group. More days off, more personal days, more vacation days, better 401k. I made me wonder what the purpose of the union was.

Now when it comes to airlines unions are needed to negotiate contracts when the market has an oversupply of pilots, right now airlines are fighting for pilots and want to offer some things to attract more pilots but the unions won't allow without a complete change of the contract. I.E. Company wants to offer bonus or increase entry level pay to get more applicants through the door. The union says no because it doesn't help captains. So the end result is no one getting better pay. I would rather half get better pay than none. The result of not attracting new pilots causes regionals to cancel flights, canceled flights ultimately causes a loss of job of those that voted no to increase pay for half the group.

This also extends to contract amendments, Unions push the no vote for small improvements to reserve rules or benefits due to not including improvements for other areas of the contract or not going far enough. The only thing that forces a company to offer more is they see a need to, if they saw a need to offer 200% open time but not 250% voting no and leaving it at 150% causes no one to win.

A business will increase things as the market dictates, the unions at this point are slowing things down.

Youíre missing a really big part of why unions are necessary for airlines. In every other profession, your skills and experience go with you. If company X isnít paying you enough, you can go to company Y and you can start at or above your current pay and position. In the airline world, if after 5 or 10 years working at airline x, they arenít paying enough, you canít go to your same seat/longevity at airline Y. You are beneath even the most junior guy who started there before you. That, coupled with being held under the RLA which absolutely handcuffs us and works in managementís favor, requires unions to be able to negotiate and improve pay/QOL and fight to improve things where you are. Free market forces canít work in the airline pilot world. Without union support, companies have a huge advantage on an uneven playing field.

Springfield
06-28-2018, 10:51 AM
OK, I don't work at JetBlue, yet. I flew left seat heavy aircraft in the Air Force and have 6000 hours of 121 time. Say I'm willing to fly A320s at JetBlue for $170 an hour. Please tell me who prevents management from hiring me to do exactly that.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 10:52 AM
Youíre missing a really big part of why unions are necessary for airlines. In every other profession, your skills and experience go with you. If company X isnít paying you enough, you can go to company Y and you can start at or above your current pay and position. In the airline world, if after 5 or 10 years working at airline x, they arenít paying enough, you canít go to your same seat/longevity at airline Y. You are beneath even the most junior guy who started there before you. That, coupled with being held under the RLA which absolutely handcuffs us and works in managementís favor, requires unions to be able to negotiate and improve pay/QOL and fight to improve things where you are. Free market forces canít work in the airline pilot world. Without union support, companies have a huge advantage on an uneven playing field.

Weren't you here while JB was non-union? You didn't get your NEW CAR LEASE?!?

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 10:56 AM
OK, I don't work at JetBlue, yet. I flew left seat heavy aircraft in the Air Force and have 6000 hours of 121 time. Say I'm willing to fly A320s at JetBlue for $170 an hour. Please tell me who prevents management from hiring me to do exactly that.

1st of all, JB prevents JB from doing exactly that.

We were non-union just a few years ago, and our 1st year pay was garbage.

Try again.

Av8tr1
06-28-2018, 10:56 AM
Youíre missing a really big part of why unions are necessary for airlines. In every other profession, your skills and experience go with you. If company X isnít paying you enough, you can go to company Y and you can start at or above your current pay and position. In the airline world, if after 5 or 10 years working at airline x, the arenít paying enough, you canít go to your same seat/longevity at airline Y. You are beneath even the most junior guy who started there before you. That, coupled with being held under the RLA which absolutely handcuffs us and works in managementís favor, requires unions to be able to negotiate and improve pay/QOL and fight to improve things where you are. Free market forces canít work in the airline pilot world. Without union support, companies have a huge advantage on an uneven playing field.

That is becuase the unions want it that way. If the seniority system went away tomorrow and a 737 driver could walk away from Alaska to SWA tomorrow what do you think management would do? But yet unions think the seniority system is the best thing since beer. Itís like pilots have Stockholm syndrome.

If that went away and I wasnít forced to join the union I would happily pay my union dues. But my career is literally held at gun point by the unions because they did some awesome things in the past. At what point do we stop worshipping the unions becuase of things they did decades ago?

tonsterboy5
06-28-2018, 10:59 AM
I get that the Big 3 and UPS and FedEx pay more than JB, if you are trying to say thats a reason that unions are better look at places like Spirit, and frontier along with just about every unionized LCC or ACMI, then compare what your pre-union company was really up against. JB will increase pay regardless of the union due to market demands

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 11:01 AM
Youíre missing a really big part of why unions are necessary for airlines. In every other profession, your skills and experience go with you. If company X isnít paying you enough, you can go to company Y and you can start at or above your current pay and position. In the airline world, if after 5 or 10 years working at airline x, they arenít paying enough, you canít go to your same seat/longevity at airline Y. You are beneath even the most junior guy who started there before you. That, coupled with being held under the RLA which absolutely handcuffs us and works in managementís favor, requires unions to be able to negotiate and improve pay/QOL and fight to improve things where you are. Free market forces canít work in the airline pilot world. Without union support, companies have a huge advantage on an uneven playing field.

To expand further on your post Navy, airlines don't pay based on merit or skill. Never have, never will.

We are Airbus part #1 and #2. Nothing more. We are a cost to be minimized as much as possible.

The airline doesn't offer to pay more for pilots who stay at cruise altitude an extra 5 miles on average to do a true idle-decent and save fuel. They don't offer to pay more for better landings. They don't offer to pay more to pilots who find 5% more logbook errors or catch 5% more relevant NOTAMS.

The only thing they care about is that you pass your check ride and move the aircraft from A to B on schedule. Well, in JBs case you are also expected to clean the plane, but again they won't pay you for that! Not even without a union!

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 11:06 AM
I get that the Big 3 and UPS and FedEx pay more than JB, if you are trying to say thats a reason that unions are better look at places like Spirit, and frontier along with just about every unionized LCC or ACMI, then compare what your pre-union company was really up against. JB will increase pay regardless of the union due to market demands

Wait a minute. Why can't we compare ourselves to DL, UAL, AA, SWA and FedEx? To big? Then why do you say we have to compare ourselves to airlines 1/3 our size, one of which was nearly bankrupt not long ago?

Give me a break.

GogglesPisano
06-28-2018, 11:07 AM
I worked in IT for many years before going to the airlines. Not one of my employers had unions. I made well over 6 figures in IT. My first professional job in IT had a salary in the high 5 figures. It would be comparable to a regional FO job but with much better pay. As I moved up in my career I was able to leave every job for a higher paying job. Still no union.

Pay was based on market demand. During the Y2K and the dot.com days companies were offering car leases as part of sign on bonuses. I had many companies pay 100% of my medical benefits. Other than my college education 100% of my training was paid for by my employer. That included single occupancy rooms at good hotels, all meals paid for and a rental car should I choose. In most cases the employer would have paid for my college education too. Still no union.

I never had to negotiate for anything on my job and raises were regular and expected based on specific criteria in the employee manual. I also got additional raises based on merit.

All without a union.

To be clear I am not advocating to get rid of all unions in aviation. I am only advocating for pilots to have a choice. But I suspect the unions are afraid of that.

I do see the benefits of collective bargaining but I don’t think without it we will see an apocalypse. In fact I think if the seniority system went away airlines will increasingly fall over over themselves to poach pilots from competing airlines. We are already seeing this with bonuses for prior 121 time at many regionals. If things continue the way they are we will likely see legacies doing the same.

We’ve had a perfect lab experiment going on for decades. Unionized legacy airlines vs corporate aviation. Which one has better job security, pay and working conditions (9-11 aside)?

Getting rid of seniority would be a 2-way street: “I’m going to jump ship to UAL because they’ll hire me as a 767 CA off the street” vs “AA is threatening to cut my pay because they’ll hire my replacement off the street at a lower wage.”

Do you really think being a free agent and negotiating your own package is a smart thing for a pilot?

tonsterboy5
06-28-2018, 11:10 AM
Wait a minute. Why can't we compare ourselves to DL, UAL, AA, SWA and FedEx? To big? Then why do you say we have to compare ourselves to airlines 1/3 our size, one of which was nearly bankrupt not long ago?

Give me a break.

You are right in the middle of them. In regards to just about everything, business model, size, and pay. The big 3 have it better due to a different business model. I hate to break it but how many jet blue flights are chocked full of cargo flying over the ocean to Asia?

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 11:15 AM
You are right in the middle of them. In regards to just about everything, business model, size, and pay. The big 3 have it better due to a different business model. I hate to break it but how many jet blue flights are chocked full of cargo flying over the ocean to Asia?

I hate to break it to you, but we are WAY more profitable than 2 of the 3 legacy airlines "chocked full of cargo" going to Asia.

Check our margins, the only measure of profitability that scales to Enterprise size, against UAL and AA.

jtrain609
06-28-2018, 11:21 AM
Union members, during a union contract vote, arguing about how they shouldn't have to be in a union.

We're a disgrace.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 11:24 AM
Union members, during a union contract vote, arguing about how they shouldn't have to be in a union.

We're a disgrace.

I think the ones arguing against unions are not JB pilots, they're visitors from other airlines as far as I can tell.

Springfield
06-28-2018, 12:16 PM
1st of all, JB prevents JB from doing exactly that.

We were non-union just a few years ago, and our 1st year pay was garbage.

Try again.Sorry BlueDriver, I think you missed my point, I'm agreeing with your POV. The union is who prevents me from jumping ahead of all of you. And that's a good thing, because the next guy would then agree to fly my airplane for even less.

I had a friend who left Cathay Pacific. He was American and came to understand that only the Brits, friends of the Brit Chief Pilot, were ever going to upgrade. The only thing worse than a union is not having a union.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 12:27 PM
Sorry BlueDriver, I think you missed my point, I'm agreeing with your POV. The union is who prevents me from jumping ahead of all of you. And that's a good thing, because the next guy would then agree to fly my airplane for even less.

I had a friend who left Cathay Pacific. He was American and came to understand that only the Brits, friends of the Brit Chief Pilot, were ever going to upgrade. The only thing worse than a union is not having a union.

Sorry bud, I misunderstood you. You are completely correct.

Unless you want a new car lease, then you definitely want to vote out your union...

Slaphappy
06-28-2018, 02:26 PM
Let's hope this comes to the private sector.

PasserOGas
06-28-2018, 02:32 PM
Let's hope this comes to the private sector.

I would say you are trolling, but judging by your other posts, you have gone full talk radio bubble on your news/propaganda.

queue
06-28-2018, 02:59 PM
Apples and oranges, but we'll keep it simple.

I have been at JB for many years now. Many without a union. During those years, we we're never treated like you say you were treated in your previous line of work.

No big above industry raises. No full paid healthcare. No car leases, still can't believe JB didn't lease me a new car, but they didn't. In fact, we nearly always trailed our union peers at other airlines, sometimes by a lot. And they would change very consequential work rules and profit sharing plans via email.

So, been there, done that, got the T-shirt, no thanks.

Back to my original question of you. In your ideal world where you worked for a union airline, let's say Delta, and you were given the option to not pay union dues at all, what pay, rules and benefits would you expect to work under?


I too was once at a company (as another type of professional - not a pilot) where I got all the perks and high pay. In fact, I negotiated my own salary at > BJ year 3 pay.



However, airlines need Union representation because pilots do not stand up for themselves the same way other professionals do. Pilots will never walk away from a bad deal nor will they recognize a bad deal when they see one (e.g. the current TA, post language disclosure). Most pilots at BJ come from a former personal experience of being beaten down and whose sense of "normalcy" has been recalibrated to your average service industry job. Management has successfully defeated pilot employee groups. Part of the problem is that anyone can become a pilot - there is no discrimination based on academic merit or testing. The FAA standards are not terribly hard given enough time. So, employers know that if they don't want to pay top dollar for a 4.0 GPA, Part 141 flight school grad or a military pilot, they'll pay sub-minimum wage for the guy who never graduated high school but got a pilot's license. We don't have a professional organization that controls standards. Doctors have that which is why they control doctor supply/demand/pay. ALPA is a half-solution replacement for the absence of a professional organization.



Unless pilots learn to be professionals like lawyers, medical doctors, scientists, engineers, etc., we will continue to need unions.


Albeit I'm a big time ALPA supporter, I'm also highly critical of it. They are WAY TOO SLOW and EXPENSIVE for the inadequate results we get (e.g. the current TA). ALPA has imposed on itself this whole bureaucratic process that is all artificial and not required by law. For example, they could have mass online conversations via IRC to write out a contract with all members electronically/virtually present. Once we write our dream contract, then we could present that to BJ, with only us knowing what elements of the contract proposal are make or break requirements. That way, after the first meeting, we would instantly know if we need to immediately start with informational picketing.



Remember, the mediation process is entirely voluntary! Appeasing a mediator is a self-imposed restriction for some arbitrary cause. According to the RLA, we have so many different ways to accomplish negotiations. ALPA is just mind-stuck on the way they've done for eons, which is vastly inefficient. Please read the RLA - it leaves it up to the Union and the Company to come up with a method of "negotiation". Also, every step of the RLA is *voluntary*.



So continuing on in my hypothetical example, if we give them our full proposal at meeting #1, they could read it entirely and come back with revisions at meeting #2. If they don't, the informational picketing continues. If they simply don't agree with our verbiage, or we don't agree with their amendments, then we've reached an impasse and we ask to be released for strike. Our goal is to negotiate on the expendable items but never to compromise on "requirements", which are only known to ALPA big fish as determined by ALPA members. There's no legal requirement to do things sentence by sentence, year after year.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)



ALPA is a necessary evil and I support them. They just need to abandon their dinosaur, lack of thinking methods so they can deliver results at Internet speed.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Flytolive
06-28-2018, 03:04 PM
Iíve always had a problem with being ďforcedĒ to join a union.Amazing how strong your opinions are and how weak your understanding is. You don't have to join the pilot's union, but you do have to pay your portion of the cost of negotiating the contract and all its benefits that you enjoy.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 03:06 PM
Do you feel the same way about NFL players kneeling during the anthem or do you have Fox News caned answer for that?

NFL players work for a private entity. They must obey the rules of the corporation, just as we do 311.
Should we be able to make pointed PA announcements or wear political slogans on our uniforms? No.

Flytolive
06-28-2018, 03:54 PM
Unless pilots learn to be professionals like lawyers, medical doctors, scientists, engineers, etc., we will continue to need unions.Hey genius, guess what we, pilots, need to make a living that none of those other guys do? I'll give you a hint. It costs hundreds of millions of $, carries tens of thousands of pounds of Jet A and we don't own it.


Albeit I'm a big time ALPA supporterMaybe it would force ALPA to deliver RESULTS instead of the tablescraps we get.With friends like you.

I have no idea if jetBlue's first contract is worth a yes vote, but even you get a vote despite not having a clue about the union pilot game or how it is played. I recommend you follow the old line, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

Flytolive
06-28-2018, 04:04 PM
By example, I think the seniority system is the worst thing to happen to pilots. This was a union idea.That's because you don't have a clue about why pilot unions started in the first place or what pilot pushing is or why the airline industry went nine years without killing a single passenger in the U.S. And if you are a jetBlue pilot they had a seniority system before they were unionized. If you think it through for about five minutes it should become obvious, but if not go read Flying the Line Vol. 1 and then get back to us.

GogglesPisano
06-28-2018, 04:53 PM
Amazing how strong your opinions are and how weak your understanding is. You don't have to join the pilot's union, but you do have to pay your portion of the cost of negotiating the contract and all its benefits that you enjoy.

I just don't understand the angst some airline pilots have against joining a union. The only explanation is shear ignorance of the history of the profession, where it's been, and who had to fight for what.

There are plenty of non-union airlines out there to choose from. There is always corporate aviation. In both cases their obvious superior skills and rugged individualism would be better rewarded vs being chained to the seniority system and shackled by union dues.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 04:57 PM
I just don't understand the angst some airline pilots have against joining a union. The only explanation is shear ignorance of the history of the profession, where it's been, and who had to fight for what.

There are plenty of non-union airlines out there to choose from. There is always corporate aviation. In both cases their obvious superior skills and rugged individualism would be better rewarded vs being chained to the seniority system and shackled by union dues.

It took me a while to realize this. Give some of these guys a break. Unions can be heavy handed so its daunting.
Unions are a necessary evil no doubt, but we reap the benefits.

benzoate
06-28-2018, 06:16 PM
All you need to do is work for jetblue airways for a few weeks and youíll understand why unions are a necessary evil.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 06:18 PM
All you need to do is work for jetblue airways for a few weeks and youíll understand why unions are a necessary evil.

Amen brotha

WhistlePig
06-28-2018, 06:39 PM
NFL players work for a private entity. They must obey the rules of the corporation, just as we do 311.
Should we be able to make pointed PA announcements or wear political slogans on our uniforms? No.

You aren't forced to play the national anthem before every departure either.

WhistlePig
06-28-2018, 06:44 PM
Q,

You mentioned doctors, lawyers, scientists, and engineers. Those professions are broad with unique, transferable skills. They are regulated by voluntary professional organizations that require their members to ... pay dues. You can't practice law for compensation without a Bar Card for example. Professional pilots are interchangeable non-deferrable self-loading safety equipment. Nothing more.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 06:45 PM
You aren't forced to play the national anthem before every departure either.

The players are playing the Anthem?
I thought they were sittin on their asses in the locker room from now on?
Great point:rolleyes:

WhistlePig
06-28-2018, 06:48 PM
No one should have to join a club with forced dues in order to work for the government.

In terms of private sector, no one should have to do it there either, but it should be a choice.

Also keep in mind that unions are the largest Democrat slush funding source there is.

Not all public sector unions require membership. They are different state to state, agency to agency. Don't want to join? Fine. Need a free union lawyer because you goon something up? Tough.

WhistlePig
06-28-2018, 06:49 PM
The players are playing the Anthem?
I thought they were sittin on their asses in the locker room from now on?
Great point:rolleyes:

I'm morbidly curious to see how this plays out.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 06:51 PM
I'm morbidly curious to see how this plays out.

Me too- The NFL is so predictably ineffective.

GogglesPisano
06-28-2018, 07:02 PM
Letís make paying taxes voluntary. But I still want the fire department to come when I call them. Freedom and all.

symbian simian
06-28-2018, 08:55 PM
I almost wished there were more none union airlines, but strangely enough, after a few years of the rugged individuals achieving industry leading pay and benefits, the slackers end up voting the union in.....

For all the heroes who made JB captain pay AND got a company car while being in IT/CEO/NASA, you miss one important distinction. Being the best gets you further up the ladder in virtually any career, even if you don't change companies, because promotions are (or at least should be) based on merit. You can take your experience and get a great job somewhere else at more than first year pay.
As an airline pilot you need all that experience and qualifications to get hired but from that point you have to follow SOP. There is only one way to do your job: the company way. There is nothing extra really, and definitely nothing less you can do. This strict adherence to SOP has led to most years in the USA having NO fatalities, whereas the hospitals kill about 250.0000 per year. Doctors can take their expertise to another state if they are fired for medical malpractice, because there is no FMA that requires a check ride every 6 months,or requires a company to do a 10 year background check to hire anyone. These and other things make it much harder for pilots to be mobile, so most companies have adopted seniority as the preferred system for advancement. You can argue it's not fair, but I'm sure that for every example of someone getting screwed by seniority, I can show you an example of someone getting screwed by not being buddies with the chief pilot.
As for unions, I don't care if you say necessary or necessary evil, but if you think not required I hope you can take some time and read up on Ryanair. It started as a great company to work for, and as pilots became more available, turned into a crappy place to go to. The only people who tried to improve would get fired, they started hiring people on zero hour contracts. Every one had to pay for Typeratings. People are getting bypassed for upgrade, because DEC... Guess what: union drive in progress.

Yes, union takes 2% of my pay. They also negotiated a 34% raise, will defend me if I **** of the chief pilot because I don't want to fly fatigued/into Bogota without APU/without catering on a 5 hour flight, use my commute policy EVERY TIME I COMMUTE.
I almost wish I could have helped the union haters get a non-union pilot job at NK before we got our marginal contract and see how much better they would have done (before getting fired and replaced by a another guy willing to do it for 20% less).

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:11 PM
Letís make paying taxes voluntary. But I still want the fire department to come when I call them. Freedom and all.
You're on the right track.

There is no reason for a fire department to be socialized. They should be private.

SonicFlyer
06-28-2018, 10:13 PM
I just don't understand the angst some airline pilots have against joining a union.


Here is a start:

- having more money taken out of our paycheck

- having the money taken out of our paycheck sent to causes and politicians we disagree with

- groupthink / collectivist mentality is a turnoff





Now... that being said, unions do perform an imperative function when it comes to safety.

jcountry
06-28-2018, 11:38 PM
Here is a start:

- having more money taken out of our paycheck

- having the money taken out of our paycheck sent to causes and politicians we disagree with

- groupthink / collectivist mentality is a turnoff





Now... that being said, unions do perform an imperative function when it comes to safety.

Politicians do us no favors. The money we give them is 100% wasted.

That last part is important.

So important that I will never work for a non-union airline. I used to think that it wasnít so important, but then a horrible guy showed up in mgmt at my last airline. He pulled all sorts of stuff to try and get people to fly stuff which was illegal or dangerous. Without a union, he would have fired folks who disagreed with his level of safety.

ThePenguin328
06-29-2018, 03:45 AM
Here is a start:

- having more money taken out of our paycheck

- having the money taken out of our paycheck sent to causes and politicians we disagree with

- groupthink / collectivist mentality is a turnoff





Now... that being said, unions do perform an imperative function when it comes to safety.

How do you feel about pay liability insurance? Union dues are the same thing in my eyes, as well as the cost of administering the current contract I work under. Lawyers, arbitrations, and administrative staff to keep everything organized isn't free.

ALPA does NOT send dues money to any political organizations or politicians. There is a separate fund called the PAC for political lobbying efforts.

Yeah, having a unified pilot group is a waste. Better to have 12,700 independent contractors going about their individual daily routine.

Schedule with safety.....that I can agree with 100%

I've read all 7 pages of this thread so far and just shake my head at the total self centered type A BS on display. I just spent the last 7 years working for a non-union airline, trust me that's not a place you want to spend a career: DECs, investigations with no representation, no recourse for scheduling errors, policy changes when the FNG manager decides, and then more DECs because the pay is too low and no one wants to sign an FO contract.

Flytolive
06-29-2018, 04:29 AM
I think for myself.You're on the right track.There is no reason for a fire department to be socialized. They should be private.Thinking? Is that what you call it?

In terms of private sector, no one should have to do it there either, but it should be a choice.It is a choice WRT pilot unions. First, the majority decides if they want a union or to get rid of an existing union. Majority rules, Do you have a problem with that?

Even when the majority decides to have a union as their collective bargaining agent any individual pilot can elect to be a non-member, but they have to pay their portion of the costs to negotiate the contract from which they benefit.

Mesabah
06-29-2018, 06:28 AM
With Kennedy retiring it's headed to the private sector next.

Yay! Lower wages and worse working conditions. 'Cause Freedom!!!
I wouldn't get too worried, Management would have to shed the RLA before they tried this stunt. We are still closed shop due to the RLA, and Right to Work does not apply.

WhistlePig
06-29-2018, 06:32 AM
Here is a start:

- having more money taken out of our paycheck

- having the money taken out of our paycheck sent to causes and politicians we disagree with

- groupthink / collectivist mentality is a turnoff





Now... that being said, unions do perform an imperative function when it comes to safety.

The only money that is sent to politicians is the money you elect to contribute to the PAC. I have no doubt you do not do that. Lesson over.

Bluedriver
06-29-2018, 06:55 AM
Here is a start:

- having more money taken out of our paycheck

- having the money taken out of our paycheck sent to causes and politicians we disagree with

- groupthink / collectivist mentality is a turnoff





Now... that being said, unions do perform an imperative function when it comes to safety.

Your paycheck, in aviation, would be much smaller without a union genius!

Ask me how I know!

SonicFlyer
06-29-2018, 07:55 AM
ALPA does NOT send dues money to any political organizations or politicians. There is a separate fund called the PAC for political lobbying efforts.


The only money that is sent to politicians is the money you elect to contribute to the PAC. I have no doubt you do not do that. Lesson over.

Here is the word of the day:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fungible

SonicFlyer
06-29-2018, 07:57 AM
Thinking? Is that what you call it?

It is a choice WRT pilot unions. First, the majority decides if they want a union or to get rid of an existing union. Majority rules, Do you have a problem with that?Yes, having a majority opinion means nothing. Why should the majority get to tell everyone else what to do? :confused: :rolleyes:

Precisely the groupthink collectivist mentality I was referring to.




Even when the majority decides to have a union as their collective bargaining agent any individual pilot can elect to be a non-member, but they have to pay their portion of the costs to negotiate the contract from which they benefit.And that is patently theft. If someone wants to opt out, it shouldn't cost them anything.

SonicFlyer
06-29-2018, 07:58 AM
Your paycheck, in aviation, would be much smaller without a union genius!

Ask me how I know!Not necessarily. It depends on market forces.

The unions allow the regionals to pay crap wages for decades. Now the market is forcing the regionals to step up their pay significantly.

Bozo the pilot
06-29-2018, 08:09 AM
Not necessarily. It depends on market forces.

The unions allow the regionals to pay crap wages for decades. Now the market is forcing the regionals to step up their pay significantly.

I love the market economy dictating higher wages, but in some industry, we NEED unions.
Aviation is one of them.
Think of the achievements of ALPA. I know it can be challenging dealing with them, but QOL for pilots would not be where it is with out them.
I understand your reluctance to embrace the "group" mentality, and its why each CBA ends up falling on mixed reviews.

GogglesPisano
06-29-2018, 08:23 AM
Here is a start:

- having more money taken out of our paycheck

- having the money taken out of our paycheck sent to causes and politicians we disagree with

- groupthink / collectivist mentality is a turnoff





Now... that being said, unions do perform an imperative function when it comes to safety.

I think paying 2% for an 18% raise every four years is a bargain. Without that 2% we'd be raked over the coals.

SonicFlyer: I know you're an uber-libertarian and all but here's some questions:

1) Are you an airline pilot?

2)Have you ever worked for a non-union airline?

And one more ...

3) Why do you think legacy pilots (and FDX/UPS/SWA) make what they do? If you say "market forces", then why don't non-union/corporate positions pay the same?

METO Guido
06-29-2018, 09:21 AM
Setting aside the non-mainstream players for a moment, hammering out contract language every 5 years or so is how it's done. Does the SC's above ruling foretell dire change for transportation workers? Doubt it. Relentless market incursions from off-shore, multinational poachers? Oh yeah. But then again, I'm a libertarian.

Slaphappy
06-29-2018, 09:43 AM
Public sector unions shouldn't even be allowed to exist. Government Workers shouldn't be allowed to organize.

It's one of the reasons states are going bankrupt paying pensions to these people who only have to work 20-25 years. The worst are cops.

Slaphappy
06-29-2018, 09:44 AM
Do you feel the same way about NFL players kneeling during the anthem or do you have Fox News caned answer for that?

I feel its wrong especially when it's protesting a debunked lie.

av8or
06-29-2018, 10:14 AM
https://bizjetjobs.com/pilot-salary-survey-captain-usa/

The average CAPTAIN pay for flying a Phenom 300 in the private/non union sector is $74k. The high side for a Penom 300 Captain is $89k. Prob varying degrees of bennies and work rules.

At NetJets, which is a union pilot group, 1st year pay, as a First Officer flying a Phenom 300 is $70-$80k, depending on your CHOSEN schedule. Second year, $85-90k. Tack on about a $20k/yr benefits package that includes 100% company paid health insurance and first year total compensation, as a FIRST OFFICER is $90-100k. A Phenom 300 CAPTAIN at NetJets is paid, depending on schedule around $200k a year... plus benefits.

Find me a non-union Captain flying a Phenom 300, or a Citation Encore, or Excel, or Citation 10, or Hawker, or Latitude, making $200k a year with company paid insurance, and Iíll kiss your ass.

There are 10,000 member companies in the NBAA. Thereís one NetJets. 10 thousand companies, all competing against each other for pilots to find that ONE non-union pilot that has the pay and benefits that match a NetJets pilot.

Good luck with that. 😎

av8or
06-29-2018, 10:30 AM
Public sector unions shouldn't even be allowed to exist. Government Workers shouldn't be allowed to organize.

It's one of the reasons states are going bankrupt paying pensions to these people who only have to work 20-25 years. The worst are cops.

Agree 100%

FlyyGuyy
06-29-2018, 10:33 AM
Agree 100%

Read a few bizarre stories about fire fighters working the system near the end of their careers to change what their pension pay will be. It's absurd.

SonicFlyer
06-29-2018, 11:16 AM
I think paying 2% for an 18% raise every four years is a bargain. Without that 2% we'd be raked over the coals.False cause... Market forces trump unions. Remember when pay actually went down? Unions couldn't stop that. Just because pay increases significantly is not necessarily due to the union.

GogglesPisano
06-29-2018, 11:19 AM
False cause... Market forces trump unions. Remember when pay actually went down? Unions couldn't stop that. Just because pay increases significantly is not necessarily due to the union.

You're missing the point. Admittedly market forces will rule the day. But can you not admit that collective bargaining adds some sort of premium and a certain amount of job security?

I noticed you still haven't answered my questions.

Av8or found the perfect experiment: Why do Netjets pilots earn a premium over their non-union corporate peers?

Why do you think this is such a heavily-unionized profession?

Can you give me en example of a pilot group that voted out a union with no replacement?

Time to be honest with yourself and leave that libertarian bubble.

terminal
06-29-2018, 05:07 PM
Yes, having a majority opinion means nothing. Why should the majority get to tell everyone else what to do? :confused: :rolleyes:

Precisely the groupthink collectivist mentality I was referring to.




And that is patently theft. If someone wants to opt out, it shouldn't cost them anything.

And in 2016 our President was elected with a minority.
Bet youíre a Trump supporter who doesnít see the irony.

deltajuliet
06-29-2018, 05:36 PM
And that is patently theft. If someone wants to opt out, it shouldn't cost them anything.

Maybe the answer is those people shouldnít be legally entitled to the services of the union. Let them negotiate on their own; I doubt many companies would take the time.

Itís also been illustrated ad nauseum that our situation is fundamentally different than most professions and a union is a necessary evil.

Without these protections, if we lived in a completely right-to-work industry, airlines would just fire pilots the second they topped out on the pay scale.

Thatís not quite the reality of our situation now, even if the unions all decertified overnight, but we would be forfeiting a lot of the benefits weíve come to enjoy.

I do believe in merit-based advancement with most things in life, but how on earth could you ever quantify and rank that in a seniority list of thousands?

Given the chance, Iím sure a lot of pilots would choose to not pay union dues. Weíre a shortsighted and selfish bunch. History has shown there will never be a shortage of pilots stepping on each other for personal gain. Consequently I hope this development doesnít make its way into our industry.

We have enough forces trying to drag down our profession; we donít need to be one of them too.

https://www.alpa.org/~/media/ALPA/Files/eLibraries/Communications/publications-other/flying-the-line-vol-1.pdf

http://www3.alpa.org/publications/Flying_The_Line_II/Flying_The_Line_II.pdf

Happyflyer
06-29-2018, 07:50 PM
No one should be allowed to leech off a "club" that negotiates pay/work rules.

If a person chooses to decline membership or not pay dues, the union should cut him loose. He will then be at the mercy of his employer in regards to negotiating a compensation package. History shows he will be disappointed. But hey, it's all about "right to work" (for less) so, best of luck to him.

They made the case that "required contract negoication cost" are not necessarily all that the money is spent on.

My ALPA pilot agreement states that the dues are 1.9% and the required "contract negotiating cost" if a pilot elects to not become a memeber are also 1.9%.

I think wasteful spending and bad accounting are more to blame than republicans. If they'd actually broke out contract cost speerate from general dues this wouldn't have happened and furthermore no members would even be upset.
Greedy unions break out fee structure, but not back end accountability, how can ALPA claim contract cost for non memebers are 1.9% for forever?

In the 1970's the judges made the right decision by allowing dues to be spectate from contract cost. 40 years later the judges made the right decision again because unions proved they could just funnel all the money they wanted through the "contract cost" provision. Unions had 40 years to reform their agenda and play right, but choose to carry on.

Happyflyer
06-29-2018, 08:10 PM
I find it separately ironic that DEMOCRATS are making an argument about "free riders" which has merit, and they are the biggest proponents of Medicaid and welfare.

Flytolive
06-29-2018, 08:22 PM
Yes, having a majority opinion means nothing. Why should the majority get to tell everyone else what to do? And that is patently theft.Cool. Taxes optional at least in your fantasyland. What other democratic laws can we opt out of? If someone wants to opt out, it shouldn't cost them anything.Absolutely. If someone wants to opt out of joining the union then they can pay the agency fees or opt for working at a different airlines. Plenty of non-union jobs out there at which to opt in.

Happyflyer
06-29-2018, 08:37 PM
Large numbers of pilots, if allowed, will stop paying union dues. They will say it is on principle, but it will be individual greed.

My union will have less funds with which to represent me in all manners, the result will be less favorable results.

More pilots will see less results and mistakenly think it's simply because their union is not effective, and will rationalize not paying union dues on principle (greed).

The cycle repeats.

We are so dumb it hurts.

This would only be true if every single pilot at the company had to a job threating carpet dance and the union saved them.
In my experience 90% of the pilots have never needed direct union protection, and in turn the union has to focus 90% of their time and money on the same 10% of knot heads.
Do I wanna pay union dues because the "Union" decided to spend a fortune on someone who shows up drunk, or calls in sick 35 times a year, no. Do I think unions save people's jobs who are a real POS, yes.
Do I wanna pay contract cost, to better my future, sure basic return on investment.
Your only real argument is union dues are insurance against a bad boss, and therefore we should all pay them which I understand.

None of this means SCOTUS incorrectly interpreted free speech, because it may cause harm to a system we value.

SonicFlyer
06-29-2018, 10:49 PM
And in 2016 our President was elected with a minority.
Bet youíre a Trump supporter who doesnít see the irony.

Actually no I didn't support Trump. And he was elected by a minority because that's the way the system works as specified in the Constitution. Besides, according to the Constitution the President isn't supposed to have much power at all, so most of the time the Executive should be fairly inconsequential.

SonicFlyer
06-29-2018, 10:52 PM
Maybe the answer is those people shouldnít be legally entitled to the services of the union. Let them negotiate on their own;Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. If people don't pay the dues they shouldn't get the benefit. But they shouldn't be forced to pay the dues either.





Itís also been illustrated ad nauseum that our situation is fundamentally different than most professions and a union is a necessary evil.

Without these protections, if we lived in a completely right-to-work industry, airlines would just fire pilots the second they topped out on the pay scale.You fail to understand how a free market works because that would not happen. Some airlines want the very best no matter the cost. Some will be ok with lower quality pilots.

I do believe in merit-based advancement with most things in life, but how on earth could you ever quantify and rank that in a seniority list of thousands?It happens with almost every other profession. Look at the military for example.

deadseal
06-30-2018, 03:37 AM
It happens with almost every other profession. Look at the military for example.

Dude, you donít know anything about the military if you think the above statement is true.

If you really canít see that a corporation would stomp your QOL for cost reduction then you are either one of two things, niave or a company stooge.
The companies are doing what they are suppose to and I have no problem with that.

You also have failed to answer direct questions about union vs non union pilot groups and thus your troll powers are vanquished

Red Forman
06-30-2018, 04:45 AM
https://bizjetjobs.com/pilot-salary-survey-captain-usa/

The average CAPTAIN pay for flying a Phenom 300 in the private/non union sector is $74k. The high side for a Penom 300 Captain is $89k. Prob varying degrees of bennies and work rules.

At NetJets, which is a union pilot group, 1st year pay, as a First Officer flying a Phenom 300 is $70-$80k, depending on your CHOSEN schedule. Second year, $85-90k. Tack on about a $20k/yr benefits package that includes 100% company paid health insurance and first year total compensation, as a FIRST OFFICER is $90-100k. A Phenom 300 CAPTAIN at NetJets is paid, depending on schedule around $200k a year... plus benefits.

Find me a non-union Captain flying a Phenom 300, or a Citation Encore, or Excel, or Citation 10, or Hawker, or Latitude, making $200k a year with company paid insurance, and Iíll kiss your ass.

There are 10,000 member companies in the NBAA. Thereís one NetJets. 10 thousand companies, all competing against each other for pilots to find that ONE non-union pilot that has the pay and benefits that match a NetJets pilot.

Good luck with that. 😎

Would you like me to bend over now or later?

GogglesPisano
06-30-2018, 05:00 AM
Dude, you donít know anything about the military if you think the above statement is true.

If you really canít see that a corporation would stomp your QOL for cost reduction then you are either one of two things, niave or a company stooge.
The companies are doing what they are suppose to and I have no problem with that.

You also have failed to answer direct questions about union vs non union pilot groups and thus your troll powers are vanquished

Believe it or not heís not a troll. He actually believes what he writes.

Remember, taxes should be voluntary and fire departments for-profit.

Just wait until someone asks him about cabotage.

SonicFlyer
06-30-2018, 08:28 AM
If you really canít see that a corporation would stomp your QOL for cost reduction then you are either one of two things, niave or a company stooge. Again, it depends on which company.

The upper tier companies probably would not. The lower tier companies probably would. There would be competition. :rolleyes:

Flytolive
06-30-2018, 08:58 AM
Again, it depends on which company.Not in a mature capital-intensive industry like the airlines. Price, and therefore, cost is king. Your assertions are pure fantasy.

Bozo the pilot
06-30-2018, 09:29 AM
Believe it or not heís not a troll. He actually believes what he writes.

Remember, taxes should be voluntary and fire departments for-profit.

Just wait until someone asks him about cabotage.

I dont even like cabbage.

kevbo
06-30-2018, 10:28 AM
Agree 100%

"No Marvin, that's mine, you can't have any!" (Eric Cartman, CEOs, and most pilots). It's okay for my lofty paycheck to come from borrowed money but not yours! LOL Just about every person, family, business, and government is a going concern that's levered over their heads.

SonicFlyer
06-30-2018, 11:51 AM
Not in a mature capital-intensive industry like the airlines. Price, and therefore, cost is king. Your assertions are pure fantasy.You fail to understand a supply/demand for pilots.

Slaphappy
06-30-2018, 12:34 PM
With Kennedy retiring it's headed to the private sector next.

Yay! Lower wages and worse working conditions. 'Cause Freedom!!!

Good. Hope we dump abortion with it.

GogglesPisano
06-30-2018, 12:37 PM
Good. Hope we dump abortion with it.

Yay for lower wages and worse working conditions?

Youíre not very good at trolling.

Slaphappy
06-30-2018, 01:11 PM
Yay for lower wages and worse working conditions?

Youíre not very good at trolling.

Yay for free association.

GogglesPisano
06-30-2018, 01:14 PM
Yay for free association.

And freeloading. And ďrugged individualistsĒ undercutting union wages by cutting their own deals. I sincerely hope youíre not an airline pilot.

Slaphappy
06-30-2018, 02:43 PM
And freeloading. And ďrugged individualistsĒ undercutting union wages by cutting their own deals. I sincerely hope youíre not an airline pilot.

Market forces did more to raise wages at the regional level that some crappy union ever did.

GogglesPisano
06-30-2018, 02:50 PM
Market forces did more to raise wages at the regional level that some crappy union ever did.

True. But what about the other end? Care to address the premium Netjets pilots make over their peers as referenced in a previous post?

How do you explain the pay at FDX/UPS/SWA and the Big Three?

kevbo
06-30-2018, 04:03 PM
True. But what about the other end? Care to address the premium Netjets pilots make over their peers as referenced in a previous post?

How do you explain the pay at FDX/UPS/SWA and the Big Three?

Free markets? Remember the American Eagle slogan, 80 for 80?

GogglesPisano
06-30-2018, 04:10 PM
Free markets? Remember the American Eagle slogan, 80 for 80?

You've made my point. Pilots will jump over each other to secure a deal for themselves -- like flying an MD80 for $80/hr.

terminal
07-02-2018, 07:34 AM
Actually no I didn't support Trump. And he was elected by a minority because that's the way the system works as specified in the Constitution. Besides, according to the Constitution the President isn't supposed to have much power at all, so most of the time the Executive should be fairly inconsequential.

And majority rules in the workplace because that *was* what was set by law.

If itís wrong then itís wrong across the board. You canít say itís BS that a majority decides for everyone in one instance and then accept it in another.

METO Guido
07-02-2018, 08:55 AM
Members can wear pins non dues paying non-members can't. Non-members can earn a spot on a non-members list. Non-members undergo recurrent checking like everyone else. Your individualism must be sufficiently "rugged" to shrug that off. SC decisions often balance protections of the individual against the will of a majority. They don't guarantee a pleasant work environment.

JohnBurke
07-03-2018, 04:26 PM
No one should be allowed to leech off a "club" that negotiates pay/work rules.

If a person chooses to decline membership or not pay dues, the union should cut him loose. He will then be at the mercy of his employer in regards to negotiating a compensation package. History shows he will be disappointed. But hey, it's all about "right to work" (for less) so, best of luck to him.

Someone who does not pay union dues not hold membership is not beholden to follow the contract, as the contract exists between the company and the union.

Someone to whom the contract does not apply is not entitled to the protections or agreements afforded a participating party, and technically, the company may offer a non-ptotected employee something outside the scope of the contract. If a nonmember pilot believes he as not received the pay or conditions guaranteed by the contract, the employee has no basis to grieve under the contract, and is not entitled to representation.

The supreme court position, while presently outside the scope of airline operations, cuts both ways. An employee might not be required to join the union or pay dues, but the emoyee is neither protected nor benefitted by the contract or union. He's fair game to the company. That weakens the unions position, creates a double standatd, but may also pit more pressure on unions to do more than represent self interests.

galaxy flyer
07-03-2018, 07:31 PM
John,

Hate to disagree, but all members of the bargaining unit must, by law, be represented by their bargaining agent. Just because someone decides not to join the union, they cannot work for terms outside the contract and the company cannot offer employment on terms different than the contract. Either would be an unfair practice.

GF

GogglesPisano
07-03-2018, 07:48 PM
John,

Hate to disagree, but all members of the bargaining unit must, by law, be represented by their bargaining agent. Just because someone decides not to join the union, they cannot work for terms outside the contract and the company cannot offer employment on terms different than the contract. Either would be an unfair practice.

GF

That’s how I understand it, unfortunately. Government-mandated free-loading.

galaxy flyer
07-03-2018, 08:16 PM
Thatís how I understand it, unfortunately. Government-mandated free-loading.

Thatís how I was taught it at ALPA.

GF

JohnBurke
07-04-2018, 12:10 AM
John,

Hate to disagree, but all members of the bargaining unit must, by law, be represented by their bargaining agent. Just because someone decides not to join the union, they cannot work for terms outside the contract and the company cannot offer employment on terms different than the contract. Either would be an unfair practice.

GF

I've been both steward and business agent, and while the traditional method is somewhat as you describe, the dismantled model is not. The contract is between the negotiating parties. A pilot union offers no protection for the mechanics, and participants from the pilot group who are filling competing roles as management (chief pilot, etc) do not enjoy the same protections.

It's very possible to have both a union and non-union shop, which weakens the bargaining power of the union. It's also how a company can hire across picket lines or hire outside during a job action (eg, walk-out, strike, etc).

Presently the supreme court ruling is narrow, but on the back side of a slippery slope that may have considerably larger consequences than simply excusing a few employees from paying dues. As a first amendment challenge, the present ruling is already well outside the railway labor act and effectively sidesteps it by going direct to a constitutional challenge. It iis, however, not a one-way street. If the challenge is a refusal to pay dues on the constitutional ground of free speech, the unwillingness to sponsor a group (union) whose policy is not in accord with the protestor, then the precedent not only grants the protestor relief from being bound to the position of the union, but means the union cannot be compelled to speak on behalf of that actor.

The two functions are married at the hip, which is why non-participating (silent) members have been required to pay dues. They were getting collective bargaining benefits. The progression of the current trend in court rendering unravels the status quo.

Allegheny
07-04-2018, 04:53 AM
The recent ruling is a departure from prior rulings but it is limited to public sector unions.


The problem of "free riders" or those who would benefit from a union contract but not pay to support it is known to the supreme court.

466 U.S. 435 (1984) ELLIS ET AL.
v.
BROTHERHOOD OF RAILWAY, AIRLINE & STEAMSHIP CLERKS, FREIGHT HANDLERS, EXPRESS & STATION EMPLOYES ET AL.

No. 82-1150. (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?scidkt=15609446286166048506&as_sdt=2&hl=en) Supreme Court of United States.
Argued January 9, 1984 Decided April 25, 1984 CERTIORARI TO THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT






....We remain convinced that Congress' essential justification for authorizing the union shop was the desire to eliminate free riders — employees in the bargaining unit on whose behalf the union was obliged to perform its statutory functions, but who refused to contribute to the cost thereof. Only a 448 (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15105028168759550505&q=%22germane%22+%2B+%22union+dues%22+%2B+airline+a nd+steamship+operators+%2B+Railway+labor+act&hl=en&as_sdt=6,39#p448)*448 (https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=15105028168759550505&q=%22germane%22+%2B+%22union+dues%22+%2B+airline+a nd+steamship+operators+%2B+Railway+labor+act&hl=en&as_sdt=6,39#p448) union that is certified as the exclusive bargaining agent is authorized to negotiate a contract requiring all employees to become members of or to make contributions to the union. Until such a contract is executed, no dues or fees may be collected from objecting employees who are not members of the union; and by the same token, any obligatory payments required by a contract authorized by ß 2, Eleventh terminate if the union ceases to be the exclusive bargaining agent. Hence, when employees such as petitioners object to being burdened with particular union expenditures, the test must be whether the challenged expenditures are necessarily or reasonably incurred for the purpose of performing the duties of an exclusive representative of the employees in dealing with the employer on labor-management issues. Under this standard, objecting employees may be compelled to pay their fair share of not only the direct costs of negotiating and administering a collective-bargaining contract and of settling grievances and disputes, but also the expenses of activities or undertakings normally or reasonably employed to implement or effectuate the duties of the union as exclusive representative of the employees in the bargaining unit.
With these considerations in mind, we turn to the particular expenditures for which petitioners insist they may not be charged.

Remember also that the RLA since 1926 had section 2 11th.


152 (11th)



Eleventh. Union security agreements; check-off


(b) to make agreements providing for the deduction by such carrier or carriers from the wages of its or their employees in a craft or class and payment to the labor organization representing the craft or class of such employees, of any periodic dues, initiation fees, and assessments (not including fines and penalties) uniformly required as a condition of acquiring or retaining membership: Provided, That no such agreement shall be effective with respect to any individual employee until he shall have furnished the employer with a written assignment to the labor organization of such membership dues, initiation fees, and assessments, which shall be revocable in writing after the expiration of one year or upon the termination date of the applicable collective agreement, whichever occurs sooner.
(c) The requirement of membership in a labor organization in an agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (a) of this paragraph shall be satisfied, as to both a present or future employee in engine, train, yard, or hostling service, that is, an employee engaged in any of the services or capacities covered in the First division of paragraph (h) of section 153 of this title defining the jurisdictional scope of the First Division of the National Railroad Adjustment Board, if said employee shall hold or acquire membership in any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services; and no agreement made pursuant to subparagraph (b) of this paragraph shall provide for deductions from his wages for periodic dues, initiation fees, or assessments payable to any labor organization other than that in which he holds membership: Provided, however, That as to an employee in any of said services on a particular carrier at the effective date of any such agreement on a carrier, who is not a member of any one of the labor organizations, national in scope, organized in accordance with this chapter and admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services, such employee, as a condition of continuing his employment, may be required to become a member of the organization representing the craft in which he is employed on the effective date of the first agreement applicable to him: Provided, further, That nothing herein or in any such agreement or agreements shall prevent an employee from changing membership from one organization to another organization admitting to membership employees of a craft or class in any of said services.
(d) Any provisions in paragraphs Fourth and Fifth of this section in conflict herewith are to the extent of such conflict amended.
(May 20, 1926, ch. 347, ß 2, 44 Stat. 577; June 21, 1934, ch. 691, ß 2, 48 Stat. 1186; June 25, 1948, ch. 646, ß 1, 62 Stat. 909; Jan. 10, 1951, ch. 1220, 64 Stat. 1238.)
REFERENCES IN TEXT
The effective date of this chapter, referred to in par. Fifth, probably means May 20, 1926, the date of approval of act May 20, 1926, ch. 347, 44 Stat. 577.




There is a great deal of case law in the higher courts that supports this and other prior rulings under the RLA. If the SCOTUS were to reverse they would be overturning many rulings in labor law. A google scholar search for case law produced over 20 pages of different cases. Many in the Supreme Court and some in the appeals courts.

It is a tall order for this new court to reverse almost 92 years of precedent .

742Dash
07-04-2018, 04:56 AM
The government is the employer of last resort for most people so they have the weakest players.

Then why is it so hard to get a federal civil service job?

Before you slam your fellow citizens with a Fox News talking point you should give some thought to the doctors and nurses at the CDC who travel INTO pandemics in order to stop them before they reach you. The agents at the FBI and IRS who go face to face with organized crime. The civil engineers at DOT who literally climb over our crumbling infrastructure. The researchers at the NIH whose work gives your kids better odds of making it to old age.

"SCE to AUX" came from one of your "weakest players".

Flytolive
07-04-2018, 07:44 AM
You fail to understand a supply/demand for pilots.You're projecting. From your posts it is obvious you are trying unsuccessfully to shoehorn fake facts into your preconceived political notions. You might want to find a more gullible audience next time.

JohnBurke
07-04-2018, 08:18 AM
Then why is it so hard to get a federal civil service job?

Before you slam your fellow citizens with a Fox News talking point you should give some thought to the doctors and nurses at the CDC who travel INTO pandemics in order to stop them before they reach you. The agents at the FBI and IRS who go face to face with organized crime. The civil engineers at DOT who literally climb over our crumbling infrastructure. The researchers at the NIH whose work gives your kids better odds of making it to old age.

"SCE to AUX" came from one of your "weakest players".

To say nothing of wildland firefighters and hundreds of other positions that place demands of long hours, hazardous conditions, and serve critical functions to the tax payer and nation in general...as well as the many who live largely unknown, unrecognized, who keep the government running on a daily basis.

That said, there's a lot of dead wood out there, as well, and after a lot of years of working closely with a number of federal agencies and personnel, I've seen quite a few positions created and maintained specifically for one person, and just to keep that person employed. I've also seen a lot of hiring based strictly on points...not job qualifications. Sexual preference, handicap, ethnicity, veteran status, etc, which determined that the person who was hired got the job over vastly more qualified individuals.

The issue of collective bargaining should be different with public institutions. While the institution of collective representation is absolutely necessary at many companies, the same is not necessarily true of government service, and there is a significant difference between squaring off against a commercial entity and against the taxpayers whom the government serves. On the one hand, pilots vs. management is the dog negotiating with the hand that feeds it, for better living conditions and the nature of the food, while on the other the government employee squares off against the government, which is bankrolled by the taxpayer, while the employee serves the taxpayer. Entirely different environments. There's no question that the bureaucratic structure of the government opens opportunity for abuse, and with that comes some need of defense, and hence unions, but government unions also open the unique situation of the governing body being governed from the bottom up, by union direction.

I'm not a big fan of the government. I've spent a lot of years working very closely with various branches, agencies, offices, departments, bureaus, etc, and have known some exceptional people doing very good work. I've also known a number of *******s who had as much business being in their positions as a battle ship in a tea cup.

The ruling under discussion applies to the unions of public institutions, but it's not a far reach to see it find application beyond, to private industry. Back side of the slope, which is slick. This ruling wasn't settled on the grounds of labor law, but a constitutional challenge; the tight end passed the scrimmage line and ran straight for the end zone. In so doing, the grounds may be set for creation of a new free agent, rather than simply a player who gets paid but sits on the side for the rest of the game, drinking a pina colada.

Bellanca
07-04-2018, 02:28 PM
This is exactly what the political powers at be want: us to be fighting and arguing over paying a small percentage in union dues, all the while the companies, CEOs, etc, are raking in millions and billions. All in the name of 'freedom'. :rolleyes:

As much as the seniority system sucks, I certainly don't want to go the to contract flying like many foreign airlines have. I'd rather not have zero job security past my 3-5 year contract, or lose out on upgrade because it's easier to hire street captains, vs upgrade those on property. The work rules aren't stellar at those places, either. Since as a whole airline pilots are an under-cutting bunch, there will constantly be someone in line to undercut the next to fly the newest, shiniest, biggest jet. Somehow NAI is managing to hire despite the fact that people can actually make more money flying at most regionals AND have better work rules and quality of life. But, hey, you can't fly a 737 or 787 international at a regional....:rolleyes: As much as I hope the NAI pilots and ilk are blacklisted from getting hired at the majors, undercutting yes-men are probably precisely the kind of pilots management wants most.

As a regional pilot, I know ALPA has screwed the regionals many times. I also know that my company would screw us over even more if we didn't have ALPA. Definitely a necessary evil.

galaxy flyer
07-04-2018, 03:59 PM
John,

I donít know of the ďdismantledĒ model, but all members of a ďcraftĒ under a working agreement must be represented by the certified bargaining agent. If ALPA is the bargaining agent at airline X, all pilots, not in a management position, must be treated equally under the contract. Pilots cannot leave the union and make their own deal for pay and working conditions. Similarly, airline X cannot offer pilots a separate deal outside the working agreement.

True, the bargaining unit, in this case, only covers pilots that are not in management positions. Other crafts or classes are are different bargaining units.

GF

JohnBurke
07-04-2018, 06:43 PM
John,

I donít know of the ďdismantledĒ model, but all members of a ďcraftĒ under a working agreement must be represented by the certified bargaining agent. If ALPA is the bargaining agent at airline X, all pilots, not in a management position, must be treated equally under the contract. Pilots cannot leave the union and make their own deal for pay and working conditions. Similarly, airline X cannot offer pilots a separate deal outside the working agreement.

True, the bargaining unit, in this case, only covers pilots that are not in management positions. Other crafts or classes are are different bargaining units.

GF

This latest ruling is one step toward dismantling that model. While the RLA governs the requirement to represent all covered, by removing themselves from the covered on constitutional grounds, the door opens to remove the requirement for representation. Again, it's an end-run around the RLA, but if the supreme court establishes that an employee is not required to provide dues, it's not far to seek a judgement that the union need not or does not represent, as that's the inference in not paying dues.

Again, slippery slope.

galaxy flyer
07-04-2018, 08:19 PM
This latest ruling is one step toward dismantling that model. While the RLA governs the requirement to represent all covered, by removing themselves from the covered on constitutional grounds, the door opens to remove the requirement for representation. Again, it's an end-run around the RLA, but if the supreme court establishes that an employee is not required to provide dues, it's not far to seek a judgement that the union need not or does not represent, as that's the inference in not paying dues.

Again, slippery slope.

I see your point, but that would require either Congress amends the RLA, NLRA and 80 years of settled law or SCOTUS declares those acts unconstitutional on free association grounds (1st Amendment). Hard to imagine. I see members ďfree loadingĒ and eventually the union being decertified as the ďend runĒ. Membership in Wisconsin public unions has fallen precipitously since the law was changed there.

GF

rickair7777
07-04-2018, 08:52 PM
I see your point, but that would require either Congress amends the RLA, NLRA and 80 years of settled law or SCOTUS declares those acts unconstitutional on free association grounds (1st Amendment). Hard to imagine. I see members “free loading” and eventually the union being decertified as the “end run”. Membership in Wisconsin public unions has fallen precipitously since the law was changed there.

GF

Yes, this is not relevant to private-sector unions. The fundamental basis of the decision was first amendment which applies only to the government.

Opening up RLA in congress would be a big can of worms (for either side). If conservative interests go there now, congress might flip before it gets done, producing a possible windfall for labor. It's too unpredictable, neither side would likely risk going there unless they were certain the outcome would be in their favor.

Also... while Trump is no friend of big government and civil slackers, he's making political hay by advocating for dis-affected private sector workers, so it might not be in his (or his allies) interests to perform a direct frontal assault on private sector organized labor. There will be brush fires, but I don't think the administration will go there at the national level. Hillary hosed herself in part because she blew off labor.

Flytolive
07-05-2018, 04:16 AM
Yes, this is not relevant to private-sector unions. The fundamental basis of the decision was first amendment which applies only to the government.So? One step at a time, and whatever argument is needed will be made. All four of the R's and undoubtedly the next justice on the SCOTUS have come through the right wing training grounds that hate unions and want to once and for all demolish the New Deal. If you don't think private unions are next then I think you are wishfully thinking.

galaxy flyer
07-05-2018, 09:50 AM
Public unionsí speech has an inherent political aspect, the union and members are bargaining with...politicians. In private sector unions, one, youíre not dealing with politicians but enterprises that answer to stockholders and; two, thereís no expectation of government abridging your speech rights.

GF

rickair7777
07-05-2018, 10:05 PM
So? One step at a time, and whatever argument is needed will be made. All four of the R's and undoubtedly the next justice on the SCOTUS have come through the right wing training grounds that hate unions and want to once and for all demolish the New Deal. If you don't think private unions are next then I think you are wishfully thinking.

I'm sure they'd like to try but they won't be using this particular argument, that's all.

Flytolive
07-06-2018, 12:18 AM
I'm sure they'd like to try but they won't be using this particular argument, that's all.Try? The far right will have the SCOTUS locked up in a matter of months. Saying they won't use the same argument is about as useful as tits on a bull.

Slaphappy
07-10-2018, 10:21 AM
Try? The far right will have the SCOTUS locked up in a matter of months. Saying they won't use the same argument is about as useful as tits on a bull.

Good. 30 years or more.

BKbigfish
07-10-2018, 10:41 AM
Good. 30 years or more.

Ah yes... nothing like having a bunch of Ivy League educated white men handpicked by corporate interests overruling the voice of the American people for decades.

tomgoodman
07-10-2018, 12:50 PM
Ah yes... nothing like having a bunch of Ivy League educated white men handpicked by corporate interests overruling the voice of the American people for decades.

The Ivy League provides automatic diversity of opinion, because Harvard and Yale graduates donít agree on anything. :p

Slaphappy
07-11-2018, 10:38 AM
Ah yes... nothing like having a bunch of Ivy League educated white men handpicked by corporate interests overruling the voice of the American people for decades.

I guess you'd be happy with more "wise latinas".

BKbigfish
07-11-2018, 10:44 AM
I guess you'd be happy with more "wise latinas".

Iíd be happy with anybody not picked from a list that is funded by billionaire campaign donors.

Slaphappy
07-11-2018, 10:45 AM
Iíd be more happy with anybody not picked from a list that is funded by billionaire campaign donors.

There is nothing wrong with that.

MSarrow
10-22-2018, 10:22 AM
We are concerned about the attacks on unions and pilot worker protections and wrote about it in an article on APC (https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/articles/news/midterm-election-analysis-an-attack-on-pilot-unions.html).

Brinary01
10-26-2018, 06:25 AM
I am not so sure, the whole reason the RLA exist is to prevent damage to other industries caused but labor disputes in the transportation industry. The RLA is a pretty solid price of legislation, it would be hard to get rid of organized labor in the transportation industry with out repealing large swaths of the RLA. Not impossible, but if you go read the actual RLA you see it favors industry in a lot of ways. If you want you organized labor though stand strong with your brothers an sisters. Unions are not perfect, but the alternative can have extreme results, go Google Henry Frick, and the Pinkertons. Considering the country is being driven head strong into the turn of the 20th century, it is good to study history.

Roundup
11-03-2018, 06:16 PM
Good. 30 years or more.

Great, another wingnut heard from. The thing about wingnuts is that they need unions more than the rest of us. Seniority assigned by management? I can live with it but wingnuts always screw up and need the very protections afforded by a liberal institution such as a union. But of course itís always someone elseís fault. In 2000 75% of the Allied pilots associations campaign donations went to baby bush. But I suspect that they will be the first to ask for union protections and respect for any picket line.