Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Informal TA poll


rvr1800
06-27-2018, 10:57 AM
How are you voting? I’m curious to see how this compares to the other site. Obviously don’t vote until you’re confident you’ve gained all the information you’ll need to make a decision.


jtrain609
06-27-2018, 10:59 AM
How are you voting? Iím curious to see how this compares to the other site.

http://airlinefiles.com/images/On_Line_Angry2.jpg

BeatNavy
06-27-2018, 11:06 AM
Since non-JB people can vote, I wouldnít take this too seriously.


say again
06-27-2018, 11:07 AM
Since non-JB people can vote, I wouldnít take this too seriously.

I wouldn't take any poll too seriously.

Bluedriver
06-27-2018, 11:56 AM
Still undecided. I will make my final decision in the last few days of the voting window.

rvr1800
06-27-2018, 11:58 AM
Since non-JB people can vote, I wouldnít take this too seriously.

That goes for every post on this website.

Bozo the pilot
06-27-2018, 12:22 PM
That goes for every post on this website.

Aint that the truth.
Guilty as charged :D

N311JB
06-27-2018, 12:22 PM
Still undecided. I will make my final decision in the last few days of the voting window.

This how I felt about my wife and getting married. Seriously, you should know how you feel right after you read the thing. The bonus plan just clinched it for me.

Bluedriver
06-27-2018, 12:34 PM
This how I felt about my wife and getting married. Seriously, you should know how you feel right after you read the thing. The bonus plan just clinched it for me.

I know how I feel about the deal, but as I stated here before I will also consider the full context of the situation and the likely outcomes of a fail on my decision.

What don't you like about the bonus distribution method?

N311JB
06-27-2018, 12:38 PM
Distribution is fair. Just when you see the number youíre worth, I just tell myself thatís the biggest piece Iím ever gonna get from B6 from here on out. Doesnít jive with me well.

Bluedriver
06-27-2018, 12:40 PM
Agreed 311, agreed.

queue
06-28-2018, 06:59 AM
http://airlinefiles.com/images/On_Line_Angry2.jpg


Only an F&H plant, a company management pilot, or other juicer would post this. The rest of us will not accept a third rate contract.


The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
06-28-2018, 07:15 AM
Wow, sitting at 50/50. If it passes by 51% F&H will have earned their retainer.

What is the company's goal percentage again?

nuball5
06-28-2018, 07:24 AM
Wow, sitting at 50/50. If it passes by 51% F&H will have earned their retainer.

What is the company's goal percentage again?


Could go either way. Most polls though had Hillary sitting in the Oval Office. I know thereís a large hidden vote within the 3500 pilot group.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 07:42 AM
Could go either way. Most polls though had Hillary sitting in the Oval Office. I know thereís a large hidden vote within the 3500 pilot group.

A hidden yes or hidden no?

nuball5
06-28-2018, 07:47 AM
A hidden yes or hidden no?

Could be both....we'll find out in 4 weeks roughly. I've flown with guys who are voting yes just so things will be "peaceful" again....whatever that means. Pretty lame but that vote is out there though.

BunkerF16
06-28-2018, 08:02 AM
Could be both....we'll find out in 4 weeks roughly. I've flown with guys who are voting yes just so things will be "peaceful" again....whatever that means. Pretty lame but that vote is out there though.


And this exactly why the TA will pass. Too many pu$$ies and "just glad to be here, can't we just get along" pilots at JB. Pathetic. Cowards. JB's HR department did their jobs. Hired the "right" pilots for just this moment. Keeping pilot labor at a discount yet again.

PasserOGas
06-28-2018, 08:06 AM
Could be both....we'll find out in 4 weeks roughly. I've flown with guys who are voting yes just so things will be "peaceful" again....whatever that means. Pretty lame but that vote is out there though.

I can tell you there won't be "peace" with a contract that barely passes. They may be able to fool some of these guys with fancy slides, but wait until they announce all the new code shares, they get a talking to for not cleaning while commuting, everyone else's pay goes up and we are at the very bottom, and the junior guys experience our new reserve rules.

Life won't change that much, the take home won't go up that much and everyone will figure out that we got duped.

Gearswinger
06-28-2018, 08:07 AM
And this exactly why the TA will pass. Too many pu$$ies and "just glad to be here, can't we just get along" pilots at JB. Pathetic. Cowards. JB's HR department did their jobs. Hired the "right" pilots for just this moment. Keeping pilot labor at a discount yet again.



Youíre the magical bad*** who slipped past the process? Lol. Love you guys who criticize the pilot group.

Bluedriver
06-28-2018, 08:20 AM
Youíre the magical bad*** who slipped past the process? Lol. Love you guys who criticize the pilot group.

Sorry bud, he's not wrong. This pilot group, on average, is absolutely different.

Now some of us did slip through the cracks, for sure.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 01:36 PM
And this exactly why the TA will pass. Too many pu$$ies and "just glad to be here, can't we just get along" pilots at JB. Pathetic. Cowards. JB's HR department did their jobs. Hired the "right" pilots for just this moment. Keeping pilot labor at a discount yet again.

I tend to agree with part of this.
You contradict your own logic though. Why is B6 going to come to the table?
They make bank off the fact that, as a pilot group, we help the operation at every turn. We will still use oue phones to call MX, push early and call Ops on the #2 radio. Wheres the leverage Bunk.
So while I agree with the fact that we, as a pilot group, fail each day to fly SOP, I dont see how a No vote changes the leverage on TA #2.
This T/A actually protects us from some bad things.
Thoughts..

PasserOGas
06-28-2018, 01:39 PM
I tend to agree with part of this.
You contradict your own logic though. Why is B6 going to come to the table?
They make bank off the fact that, as a pilot group, we help the operation at every turn. We will still use oue phones to call MX, push early and call Ops on the #2 radio. Wheres the leverage Bunk.
So while I agree with the fact that we, as a pilot group, fail each day to fly SOP, I dont see how a No vote changes the leverage on TA #2.
This T/A actually protects us from some bad things.
Thoughts..

We give away our leverage on new aircraft by agreeing to binding arbitration. How did binding arbitration work out for Alaska?

I guess I shouldnt talk since our rates are only $1/hr more than their forced rates.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 01:45 PM
We give away our leverage on new aircraft by agreeing to binding arbitration. How did binding arbitration work out for Alaska?

I guess I shouldnt talk since our rates are only $1/hr more than their forced rates.

Refer to my post above Pog.

11Bravo
06-28-2018, 04:02 PM
Just wait till itís 2021 and we go into negotiations again and JB DRAGS this out for 3 years and we are flying the C series or 195 for regional wages. All you YES voters are going to pat yourselves on the back and stroke each other off and say what a good job youíve done! High five on contract 2018! What a pathetic joke

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 04:10 PM
Just wait till itís 2021 and we go into negotiations again and JB DRAGS this out for 3 years and we are flying the C series or 195 for regional wages. All you YES voters are going to pat yourselves on the back and stroke each other off and say what a good job youíve done! High five on contract 2018! What a pathetic joke

Great 14th post. Welcome aboard.
Anything constructive or informative?

11Bravo
06-28-2018, 04:38 PM
Itís a pleasure to join the conversation Bozo... your user name essentially says it all. I have never threatened you nor attacked so I see how how fight. Iíve been trained to deal with individuals of your kind so bring it on... BTW, I know your RAH background and you werenít very well respected there either. So letís just let it rest. So I am a NO VOTE and you must attack me for the faults I see in the agreement... so be it. I am a rational individual that doesnít have over 800 irrelevant posts on airline pilot central

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 04:40 PM
It’s a pleasure to join the conversation Bozo... your user name essentially says it all. I have never threatened you nor attacked so I see how how fight. I’ve been trained to deal with individuals of your kind so bring it on... BTW, I know your RAH background and you weren’t very well respected there either. So let’s just let it rest. So I am a NO VOTE and you must attack me for the faults I see in the agreement... so be it. I am a rational individual that doesn’t have over 800 irrelevant posts on airline pilot central

Yes you're 15 posts are relevant 11B. Keep em comin. And Im glad my 6 months at RAH left an impression. Where else was I?
Welcome to the industry :)

hockeypilot44
06-28-2018, 04:46 PM
Even debating it at this point is pointless. You guys are voting this in 70-30 or better. A blind guy can see that. There is very little industry leading in this deal. Night pay is the only thing I can see.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 04:49 PM
Even debating it at this point is pointless. You guys are voting this in 70-30 or better. A blind guy can see that. There is very little industry leading in this deal. Night pay is the only thing I can see.

Is there industry standard? That you can see?
Serious question.

BunkerF16
06-28-2018, 06:19 PM
I tend to agree with part of this.
You contradict your own logic though. Why is B6 going to come to the table?
They make bank off the fact that, as a pilot group, we help the operation at every turn. We will still use oue phones to call MX, push early and call Ops on the #2 radio. Wheres the leverage Bunk.
So while I agree with the fact that we, as a pilot group, fail each day to fly SOP, I dont see how a No vote changes the leverage on TA #2.
This T/A actually protects us from some bad things.
Thoughts..


Bozo....the bottom line is there will always be pilots who will operate outside of what is beneficial to the group's objectives. Fly SOP, nothing more nothing less was the mantra ever since we entered our official labor dispute. Will there be guys who don't? Absolutely. But I think everyone who was on the line felt a palpable difference in the operations the last several months leading up to the AIP. I think the momentum really started with our picket in January and was building every day. More and more guys were doing their job and only their job. Ask the guys who flew in and out of Boston what the ground control supervisor felt about us.


The company felt it. Was it everyone? No. But it was enough to make an impact. We had the greatest amount of leverage we ever had during the 4 years since ALPA came on property. We were about to have another picket event at our HQs during a vote to increase senior officer compensation. Jamie Baker downgraded our stock due primarily to labor unrest. We were headed into summer and the busiest flying period of the year where even the company admitted the majority of our profits for the entire year comes from. Our pilot group was the most galvanized it had ever been, and getting more so every day. For the first time during this entire process, I felt we actually had the upper hand, or at a minimum, significant leverage. And we let it slip through our fingers.


To get back to your question. What do I think would happen if we voted no? I think we get our leverage right back. As much as we had before? Possibly, but for different reasons. The company believes we're going to vote Yes on this TA. I firmly believe this. They need the labor portion of their cost structure to be solidified because they have some major decisions to make which require it. The main one being the culmination of the fleet review. In order to borrow money to solidify a major order like an new fleet type requires major cost equations to be known. With the possibility of that equation not being known would have thrown a wrench in JB's timeline. Also, we'd still have at least a month of the summer flying that should we go back to SOP flying would cripple the operation. It doesn't take everyone to toe the line, just enough to hurt JB's operations. We were there before the AIP, and we'd get back there again quickly.


Is voting no a risk? Of course it is. But I think we have enough leverage that should we vote no, the company would be pressured from several different sides to come to a deal on a better contract than what we have on the table now sooner than what many people believe.

Bozo the pilot
06-28-2018, 07:01 PM
Bozo....the bottom line is there will always be pilots who will operate outside of what is beneficial to the group's objectives. Fly SOP, nothing more nothing less was the mantra ever since we entered our official labor dispute. Will there be guys who don't? Absolutely. But I think everyone who was on the line felt a palpable difference in the operations the last several months leading up to the AIP. I think the momentum really started with our picket in January and was building every day. More and more guys were doing their job and only their job. Ask the guys who flew in and out of Boston what the ground control supervisor felt about us.


The company felt it. Was it everyone? No. But it was enough to make an impact. We had the greatest amount of leverage we ever had during the 4 years since ALPA came on property. We were about to have another picket event at our HQs during a vote to increase senior officer compensation. Jamie Baker downgraded our stock due primarily to labor unrest. We were headed into summer and the busiest flying period of the year where even the company admitted the majority of our profits for the entire year comes from. Our pilot group was the most galvanized it had ever been, and getting more so every day. For the first time during this entire process, I felt we actually had the upper hand, or at a minimum, significant leverage. And we let it slip through our fingers.


To get back to your question. What do I think would happen if we voted no? I think we get our leverage right back. As much as we had before? Possibly, but for different reasons. The company believes we're going to vote Yes on this TA. I firmly believe this. They need the labor portion of their cost structure to be solidified because they have some major decisions to make which require it. The main one being the culmination of the fleet review. In order to borrow money to solidify a major order like an new fleet type requires major cost equations to be known. With the possibility of that equation not being known would have thrown a wrench in JB's timeline. Also, we'd still have at least a month of the summer flying that should we go back to SOP flying would cripple the operation. It doesn't take everyone to toe the line, just enough to hurt JB's operations. We were there before the AIP, and we'd get back there again quickly.


Is voting no a risk? Of course it is. But I think we have enough leverage that should we vote no, the company would be pressured from several different sides to come to a deal on a better contract than what we have on the table now sooner than what many people believe.

I am in agreement with a few things mentioned above Bunk.
We did indeed have the most leverage at any point during the negotiation process. This probably lead to the gap being closed.
I also would have loved to see what removing "pilot good will" would have done to the op and how it would have affected the oblivious B6 management.

Where I diverge from your point is the belief that this pilot group will return to the trend it exhibited before this TA was reached. I have lost faith in two things here; This pilot group committing to SOP and B6 ever reacting in panic to anything labor does.
I think B6 does need a fixed labor agreement with us before their growth plan can commence, but with the billions that they already make, I dont see them in as much of a rush as you propose.

I do also believe that a NO vote WILL garner more cash and prizes.
But how much for how long???

So this comes down to one Q, one A;
Do we think the haul from a rejection of T/A #1 produces a timely & markedly better T/A #2?
If yes, then vote NO
If no, then vote YES.
I appreciate your pov Bunk and my ears are open.
Peace.

hockeypilot44
06-29-2018, 06:53 AM
Is there industry standard? That you can see?
Serious question.

I see a deal that is a contract behind the big 3 and Southwest, but ahead of Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant, and similar to Alaska and Hawaiiís. I would put it as a whole in the middle of the industry. The 2 percent increases will have you guys falling further and further by the year until the leagacy ammendable dates. At that point, you will either start gaining on the legacies or the big 3 will get new contracts pushing you even further behind. The airlines donít operate in a vacuum and every contract matters.

I personally think the witholding of OE trips is bad. I didnít realize that Jetblue and Delta were the only 2 companies remaining that didnít have that. I expect Delta to try and get that next contract again.

Bluedriver
06-29-2018, 07:15 AM
I see a deal that is a contract behind the big 3 and Southwest, but ahead of Spirit, Frontier, and Allegiant, and similar to Alaska and Hawaiiís. I would put it as a whole in the middle of the industry. The 2 percent increases will have you guys falling further and further by the year until the leagacy ammendable dates. At that point, you will either start gaining on the legacies or the big 3 will get new contracts pushing you even further behind. The airlines donít operate in a vacuum and every contract matters.

I personally think the witholding of OE trips is bad. I didnít realize that Jetblue and Delta were the only 2 companies remaining that didnít have that. I expect Delta to try and get that next contract again.

And Southwest doesn't withhold OE trips.

rvr1800
07-08-2018, 09:08 AM
Bump


.....

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 09:47 AM
And Southwest doesn't withhold OE trips.

Yes but every other airline does in one form or another.

SWA and delta are better.
We are essentially same as UAL

BETTER THAN Ak aa ha

Not sure what Spirit does with their 8% make rsv fly them?

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 10:08 AM
Yes but every other airline does in one form or another.

SWA and delta are better.
We are essentially same as UAL

BETTER THAN Ak aa ha

Not sure what Spirit does with their 8% make rsv fly them?

Well, it WAS SWA, Delta *and* JetBlue. But carry on.