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View Full Version : Contract 2020


Cheddar
06-27-2018, 04:24 PM
So a few buddies and I got together several months ago with our ideal contract combing mostly industry standard ideas at different companies with some small tweaks in reference to pay rates, etc. It's hard to believe, but most everything in here is existing "standard" at legacies/majors - but not within one contract. I believe by picking the best of the standard items and inserting them into one would give us an industry leading contract.

At the very least, this is hopefully an avenue where one can cut/paste items (or the entire thing) into sound-offs and the C2020 email.

Use it as you like - but please send send-offs and ideas to the C2020 email site!


Cheddar
06-27-2018, 04:25 PM
C2020 – “INDUSTRY LEADING”
• All in one document, to include all side letters, LOA’s, and previous contract sections as applicable
• Length – 3 years from date of signing, With 5% increase on every subsequent Jan 1st
• Signing bonus of 30% of previous year’s W2 to match two years of reduced profit sharing (with included B Fund contribution)
• “Me too” clause in regards to pay snap-ups with DAL/UAL
• Implementation Deadlines/Fees
• Complete Re-Write of Contract. This was shown in the APA BoD Best Practices presentation. NC, CC and Legal take one section and side letters, LOA’s, etc. for a month and re-writes it. Section 15 may take a few months. Give this to the company day one – a completely new (its fine to cut and paste workable sections)
• Sections 4 and 15 AT THE VERY LEAST RE-WRITTEN in conjunction with CC and Legal for clarity and precision.

SEC 3 – PAY:
• Pay – Highest Legacy + 2% year one of contract, then 5% each Jan 1st of contract duration
• B Fund/401k – Increase to 18% on DOS, 19% the next Jan 1st and 20% the following year
• FO pay to equal 75% of same group CA pay
• A321 at Group 3
• 100% increase in D/I per diem
• Group 1 at DAL CS100 rates + 5%
• Group 1 to include all aircraft on Wholly Owned Regional Certificates
• Group 3 Increased to median of group 2/4
• Pilot Only Profit Sharing:
o Percentage of CP/Director’s/VP Bonus plans, with additional B Fund contribution
o OR… Legacy Pay rates + 10% and 10%-15% (or greater to match DAL PS for the year) based on same formula used by VP level and above
 This ensures we are the highest paid, and constantly at Legacy + 2%

SEC 4 – MINIMUM GUARANTEES (COMPLETE RE-WRITE)
• LC and SC at 75:00 hours, 15 days per 30 day bid month/80:00 for 16 day bid month
• Replacement Flying (Recovery Obligation) removed.
o *OR* RO must be:
 Within the original footprint of the trip, paid at 150%
 Pilot may proffer sequence at any time after cnx of original sequence for 150% OT pickup
 Report time must be after original report time, unless Pilot proffers earlier sequence
 RO will be waived IF sufficient reserve coverage exists (Association and Company will agree on a standard, viewable metric to be used)
 Can only be contactable within 4 hours of cnx notification, but not after 2359 HBT.

SEC 6 – TRAINING
• All CBTs (quarterly Distance training included) paid at 1:1
• Training paid at ACD (or at worst reserve guarantee)
• International currencies is equal for CA and FO/ALL
• Waivers for Landings as FB/FC removed.
o FOs may only be used as FB/FC with all currencies up to date

SEC 9 – VACATION
• Years 1-5 21 days, years 6 at 24 days to increase two days every year to a max of 42 (year 7 – 26 days, year 8 – 28 days, etc)
• Vacation Days paid at what ACD day is worth or at worst – reserve guarantee (5:00)
• VEX days/Flex days remain the same
• Easing of PVD restrictions

SEC 10 – SICK
• Accrue 20 hours of SK leave per month, for 240 hours per year (Years 5 and above)
o Year 1 – 120 hours, Year 2 – 144, Year 3 – 180, year 4 – 216, Years 5 and above 240
• SK Leave is banked the 1st of every month for available use
• Accrue maximum of 1200 hours
• Optional sell back of 1:2 after 240 hours accrued, and all after 1200 at 1:4 for max of 60 paid hours a year
o Pilots over 1200 hours will automatically be paid 1:4 ratio every month upon reaching 1200 hours
o SK sold back to the company will be paid B Fund contributions
• Upon retirement, a pilot may sell back their SK for continued participation in the company medical plan at a rate of 10hours/month of coverage until Medicare eligibility.
o Pilot may sell back accrued leave at a rate of 1:2 and elect continued medical coverage in any combination
 Decision must be made before retirement
• Rapid Re-accrual after use of 240/rate of 1.5:1
• Ability for Line Holders to call off sick during a sequence if the trip returns through their domicile
o Must give a minimum of 2 hours notice to Scheduling/Tracking
 Pilot will be paid the remainder of their trip pay including GTR of ACD or actual value
 In the case above, the pilot will not be charged SK for the day they return to their sequence
• Members physician/medical representative/members AME concurrence for FAA Medical/Mental fitness note required after 15 CONSECUTIVE SK days (not calendar days)
• Pilots may elect to sell back SK at a rate of 1:2 into their STD bank for a maximum of 270 hours after reaching a minimum of 120 hours SK.
o If a pilot has an STD bank, bank hours will be used first and paid/credited at 1:1 rate
 Upon depletion of the STD bank, Pilots may elect to use available SK or transfer to STD plan under STD policy
• STD/LTD improvements
o STD
 80% up to 10,000 tax free, no offsets
 Begins after 90 hours of sick leave used or 30 days after date of issue reported to company, whichever is less
 STD bank, if available, will be depleted before company STD starts
 Sick time may be used up to LTD at member’s discretion after STD Bank (if available) is depleted
 Terminates after 90 days in conjunction LTD use
o LTD 80% up to 14,500 tax free/no offsets (based off highest of 3 month prior HI-1 look-back)
 Active pilot privileges cannot change (pass travel, medical, etc) from what they were at the time of reporting
 Starts at 90 days of date issue reported to company
 Members physician/medical representative/members AME concurrence for FAA Medical/Mental fitness LTD Determination – NOT LTD benefit or company provider
• Medical Provider (from above) Update/Concurrence for FAA Medical/Mental fitness LTD Determination required only every six months after LTD determination for the first 5 years, once per year following.

SEC 13 – SENIORITY
• Seniority dates for pay purposes will be based on pilots DOH with the company (LUS, LAA, etc)
• All pilots below 12 year seniority will revert to DOH for pay and all other pilots on the seniority list will use company DOH for all seniority purposes. In no case will company seniority numbers be re-adjusted
• All pilots below 12 year seniority will be back-paid for DOH losses to include B-fund contribution

SEC 15 – DUTY/PAY (COMPLETE RE-WRITE)
• Duty Rig at greater of 6:00 ACD or 3:1 “F” Time Rig
• “Day” defined as 0000-2359 HBT, elimination of ‘duty periods’ for pay and credit purposes
• MAX On-Duty Times – Change from FAR 117 maximums to:
o FDP = FAR 117 minus 1 hour for all categories
o FDP includes all brief/debrief times
o Extension from FDP up to FAR 117 MAX at crew discretion and paid at PM
o Extension past FAR 117 re-written to correspond to FAA “Wycliff” Letter
 Each member of crew must agree to extend past FAR 117
 PM will carry into FAR117 Extension (this way the pilot is already receiving PM and shouldn’t be exposed to punitive actions by FAA for extending solely for PM
• FAR ‘7 day’ rest CANNOT be inside of a sequence, OR only voluntary and entire sequence is paid at Premium Pay
o Must be notified 24 hours prior to sequence start or Duty Period/RAP
• Premium pay at 200%
o Removal of SK offset for premium
o Premium stacking (refer to Delta premium buckets)
o Trips originating in a four part bid status MAY NOT be broken up or otherwise transferred to a different base/division without the offering of PM/PR
• Five Premium/Holiday pay days – New Year’s Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Thanksgiving, Christmas –
o A sequence touching a Premium Pay Holiday will have that day paid at Premium Pay for the GTR of scheduled/actual or ACD.
• OT paid at 150% for Line Holder (MU) up to 72 hours prior to sequence start
o Inside 72 hours MU is at 100%
o Reserves may proffer (see Reserve section)
• Implementation of Aggressive Pick-Up (FCFS OT pick up within 2 hours of sequence start)
o Available to QLA LC pilots (see Reserve section)
• Company may only ‘hold’ 50% of OE/Training trip needed before bid run
• WOCL “Redeye” Flying (Domestic/Mex/Can)
o WOCL defined as 0200-0559 HBT
o WOCL rig - any part of a sequence that touches WOCL in a duty period will pay that ‘leg’ at an override of $25/hr CA and $18/hr FO
o For Reserves – Only One Redeye per seq/30 rest after redeye sequence/Only one leg if a Redeye in that duty period
o For Line holders – retain current PBS layers/restrictions for redeye flying
• International Override (block up to 12 hours) at $10CA/$8FO/FB/FC
• Long Haul Override (block past 12 scheduled) $25CA/$18FO/FB/FC
• Ability to pick up OT on days bought by training (NO restriction on PM, 150% pay for OT for training removal applies up to 72 hours prior to OT sequence sign in)
• Reassignments are voluntary and entire sequence paid at Premium Pay, GTR of scheduled v actual
• Language for TRIP OWNERSHIP - At no point will Line Holders be considered “airport standby reserves”
• Language: Sequence Completion INCLUDES debrief times

RESERVE:
• LC/SC at 5:00 hours per Reserve Day.
o 15 days per 30 day bid month (75:00 GTD)
o 16 days per 31 day bid month (80:00 GTD)
o All portions of reserve days will be paid the GTD of 5:00 or scheduled block hours or actual block hours
• No requirement to check schedule after sequence completion
o 12 hours rest after sequence completion THEN:
 Member required to check schedule, however, the following rules apply (see below):
• LC – you must be contactable per LC callout rules
o No trips may be assigned during that time that are within the 14 hour LC callout UNLESS waived/proffered by the member
• SC – will convert back to next available awarded RAP time
o LC - 12 hours rest after sequence may reduced to FAR rest if a sequence is proffered when member is QLA (per FAR). This includes Aggressive Pickup.
• LC:
o LC 14 hour call out
o LC to SC conversion NMT 2x/month – paid 2 hours each time and hotel and A1 pass for each conversion
• SC:
o No Change to SC callout
o Set RAPs, only one RAP conversion per block w/ 2 hour pay and credit, can only be moved +/- 2 hours from original block
o On duty – 12 hours
 Last 2 hours (after first 10 hour window) are for contact purposes for next day assignments only
• WOCL “Redeye” Assignments:
o Only one Redeye per sequence (Domestic sequence)
o 30 rest after redeye sequence (Any)
o Only one leg if a Redeye in that duty period
• No ‘Moveable Days’ – All off days are ‘Golden’
• MAX duty day – same as line holders
• If flown into a DFP, all duty time after midnight HBT will be paid at PR and credited into the pilot’s variance for groupings at 2:1.
o DFP start/end times slide 24 hours as a result
• No less than 30% of Reserve lines will be LC
• No less than 30% of Reserve Lines will be SC
• Seniority and PBS Bidding determines LC/SC bid status
• OG flying counts toward monthly GTD for variance group assignments
• Proffering by seniority out of group takes precedence
o Example – a person in a higher group may proffer and will be awarded a trip if senior to all other junior pilots in lower groups during DOTC
• Pick-up of OT at straight pay/credit and used towards variance groupings within 72 hours of sequence start
o Does not have to be in their reserve block
o Must not conflict with a previous trip
• Tradeable blocks of reserve
• Coverage days restriction on PBS (no more than 30% of reserve assigned to coverage days, no more than 4 coverage days p/ bid month)
• PBS Reserve blocks:
o must allow for block lengths from 2-6 days on
o Must allow for (3) 5-day blocks with 1 off, (2) 6-day blocks
• Federal Holidays may have no more than 30% Reserve coverage within 4 part bid status
• No changes to SIN or coming off sick
• Reporting SK, SIN or clearing SK/SIN done via electronic notification in Mobile CCI app
• Variance Groups:
o Remove PRV calculation
o 10 hour block


MISC:
• No SCOPE gives
• Contract Language for Integration of wholly owned regional partners below the lowest system seniority number (you never know)
• Furlough Protection:
o Furloughed pilots will be offered CA positions at wholly owned regional partners at each partners top pay rate
 Pilots will be assigned positions (wholly owned company, bases, equipment) in accordance with existing AA seniority within the furloughed group
 There is no expiration of position at the wholly owned regional company.
 Furloughed pilots will be ahead of all regional seniority lists (within AA group furloughed seniority) in regards to seniority, position, bid statuses, pay & benefits
 Under no circumstances will any wholly owned “flow” until every furloughed pilot has been offered recall
o Furloughed Pilots will come back on property with full seniority/benefits as if they had been on property
 Furlough returns will NOT be considered “flow through pilots” upon return
 Pilots declining recall will return with seniority/benefits at a time when first offered recall
o Furloughed pilots may sell back their sick leave and accrued vacation at 1:1 with B Fund Contributions
o Furloughed pilots accepting CA positions at wholly owned partners will keep AA travel and pass benefits for the duration of furlough
• Tighten International block hour protection for JV International SCOPE (one for one on JV on US O/D markets or stronger language)
• One Round trip POSITIVE SPACE, upgradeable ticket p/yr for pilot and companion/eligible children (no blackout dates) replacing 2 D1’s.
o 4 D1’s for pilot and companion/eligible children
o D2s/D2Ps and D3 passes remain same
• Medical –
o Company paid medical plans (to include dental and vision); Employees pay co-pays only Up To $500 per sponsor, $750 for family Tier One plan, Tier Two plan is $250 co-pay and $500 respectfully
 Tier One Plan Cannot be less coverage than best current plan
 Company and APA will decide benefit levels for Tier 1 & 2 plans
o Or – At least Improvements!!! Look at non union employee plans (director and VP level)
 FedEx plans ($120-396/month for EVERYTHING, including in Network deductible – out of Network refer to APA Contract Comparison)
o Keep HSA
• Retiree Medical Savings Plan to include accrued SK buy in at 10 hours:1 month for Tier One plan, 5 hours/month for Tier Two Plan
o Qualifies if retiring before age 65 with 10 years of service to include
 LTD
 Furloughed Time
 Flow through-
• 5 years of service and 5 years at Wholly Owned Regional
• Long term assisted living group plan (to be equal or better to plans at Fortune 100 companies)
• Life Insurance
o Up to 10x max pay up to $3,500,000 for member, may elect less
o $250,000 – 500,000 plans for Spouse/Eligible partner
o $150,000 – 300,000 plans per Eligible dependent
• Sit Time: Paid 1:2 for anything over 1:30, 1:1 for anything over 2:00 hours; greater of Scheduled OR Actual
• Dead Heading
o All Deadheads will be A1 positive space except A3 ‘during’ training (traveling on 24’s)
o All DH must be main cabin extra or premium economy (highest available) aisle or window,
o DH over 4 hours business/first
 IF business/first is not available, pilots will be placed in next tier (Premium economy or Main Cabin Extra) with PM for DH portion of sequence (scheduled or actual)
o Company will develop a preference system within Mobile CCI app for seat choice for all DH’s
o If company cannot accommodate DH seats, entire DH will be paid PM for portion of sequence (scheduled or actual)
 Does not apply to current International DH policy, unless waived by the pilot for PM
o Company will reimburse wifi charges on DH
o PM for DH violations will be paid above ACD values
 Example – DH is 2:30 embedded in a 7:00 day, DH will be paid an additional 2:30 over the 7:00
• If DH is the only scheduled leg for that day and under the ACD value, that day will be paid at ACD x 2
• PBS improvements with the increased association control of all PBS functions
o Company will provide access to all sequence optimization software with the association
 PWG or Association designees will work with the company to help assess the sequences going into PBS
• The company and the association will meet prior to PBS runs to identify sequences the association feels may need to be altered
o More layers!!!
o Increased Association control of PBS – Less control by company
o PBS military lv ‘credit’ – change to pay and credit up to 4 days at 5:00
• Crew Augmentation:
o 1 CA, 2FO on any leg scheduled over 8 hours, and ALL Oceanic crossings over 6:00 up to 11:59 hours, ALL South America trip south of Bogota touching WOCL, and any other trips the association, FRM team and company agree to
o 2 CA, 2 FO for block scheduled over 14:00
• Commuting
o 4 Paid hotels p/month at company hotels for commuters
o Use of ALL jump-seats in aircraft operating weights
o Cabin jumseats will be made available with FAs retaining priority, then pilots
o Jumpseat App incorporated into Jetnet/Mobile CCI
o Hotels for commuters stuck at base due to IROPS/Cancelations/Fatigue Events
• Fatigue language – No change
• ASAP language – No change
• HOTEL LANGUAGE to match/exceed DAL/UAL/FEDEX
o 14 hours for Long Hotel unless ‘short’ agreed to by association
o Same Discounts as other airlines for food/amenities
o Creation of Hotel Cancelation web board (cancellation tab within mobile CCI). FCFS system for unused hotel rooms
• Crew meals
o Choices prior to trips (like United), built into mobile CCI app (along with DH preference)
• Mobile CCI upgrade (see ALPA DAL app that uses company info) – like a mobile AApilots
• Trip Trade Ideas
o TTOT flexibility and dynamic TTS like SWA
o Return to the ‘spirit’ of AWA/LUS trip trade/drop system
o Trip Trade Board
o Can Drop trips to zero time
o Reserve day/block TTS
o No green/red/redder
o Trade parts of sequences
o Ease of use (mobile applications)
o The company and APA will have a meeting with multiple THIRD party vendors for a true, live, dynamic TTS and will have the system of choice on line within 1 year of signing the contract

Cheddar
06-27-2018, 04:26 PM
well crap, that formatted poorly


flyinawa
06-27-2018, 04:54 PM
Wow...nice. Let’s get that out there.

Cheddar
06-27-2018, 04:57 PM
Hopefully this is easier to read:

C2020 – “INDUSTRY LEADING”
- All in one document, to include all side letters, LOA’s, and previous contract sections as applicable
- Length – 3 years from date of signing, With 5% increase on every subsequent Jan 1st
- Signing bonus of 30% of previous year’s W2 to match two years of reduced profit sharing (with included B Fund contribution)
- “Me too” clause in regards to pay snap-ups with DAL/UAL
- Implementation Deadlines/Fees
- Complete Re-Write of Contract. This was shown in the APA BoD Best Practices presentation. NC, CC and Legal take one section and side letters, LOA’s, etc. for a month and re-writes it. Section 15 may take a few months. Give this to the company day one – a completely new (its fine to cut and paste workable sections)
- Sections 4 and 15 AT THE VERY LEAST RE-WRITTEN in conjunction with CC and Legal for clarity and precision.

SEC 3 – PAY:
- Pay – Highest Legacy + 2% year one of contract, then 5% each Jan 1st of contract duration
- B Fund/401k – Increase to 18% on DOS, 19% the next Jan 1st and 20% the following year
- FO pay to equal 75% of same group CA pay
- A321 at Group 3
- 100% increase in D/I per diem
- Group 1 at DAL CS100 rates + 5%
- Group 1 to include all aircraft on Wholly Owned Regional Certificates
- Group 3 Increased to median of group 2/4
- Pilot Only Profit Sharing:
--Percentage of CP/Director’s/VP Bonus plans, with additional B Fund contribution
--OR… Legacy Pay rates + 10% and 10%-15% (or greater to match DAL PS for the year) based on same formula used by VP level and above
---This ensures we are the highest paid, and constantly at Legacy + 2%

SEC 4 – MINIMUM GUARANTEES (COMPLETE RE-WRITE)
- LC and SC at 75:00 hours, 15 days per 30 day bid month/80:00 for 16 day bid month
- Replacement Flying (Recovery Obligation) removed.
-- *OR* RO must be:
--- Within the original footprint of the trip, paid at 150%
--- Pilot may proffer sequence at any time after cnx of original sequence for 150% OT pickup
--- Report time must be after original report time, unless Pilot proffers earlier sequence
--- RO will be waived IF sufficient reserve coverage exists (Association and Company will agree on a standard, viewable metric to be used)
--- Can only be contactable within 4 hours of cnx notification, but not after 2359 HBT.

SEC 6 – TRAINING
- All CBTs (quarterly Distance training included) paid at 1:1
- Training paid at ACD (or at worst reserve guarantee)
- International currencies is equal for CA and FO/ALL
- Waivers for Landings as FB/FC removed.
-- FOs may only be used as FB/FC with all currencies up to date

SEC 9 – VACATION
- Years 1-5 21 days, years 6 at 24 days to increase two days every year to a max of 42 (year 7 – 26 days, year 8 – 28 days, etc)
- Vacation Days paid at what ACD day is worth or at worst – reserve guarantee (5:00)
- VEX days/Flex days remain the same
- Easing of PVD restrictions

SEC 10 – SICK
- Accrue 20 hours of SK leave per month, for 240 hours per year (Years 5 and above)
-- Year 1 – 120 hours, Year 2 – 144, Year 3 – 180, year 4 – 216, Years 5 and above 240
- SK Leave is banked the 1st of every month for available use
- Accrue maximum of 1200 hours
- Optional sell back of 1:2 after 240 hours accrued, and all after 1200 at 1:4 for max of 60 paid hours a year
-- Pilots over 1200 hours will automatically be paid 1:4 ratio every month upon reaching 1200 hours
-- SK sold back to the company will be paid B Fund contributions
- Upon retirement, a pilot may sell back their SK for continued participation in the company medical plan at a rate of 10hours/month of coverage until Medicare eligibility.
-- Pilot may sell back accrued leave at a rate of 1:2 and elect continued medical coverage in any combination
--- Decision must be made before retirement
- Rapid Re-accrual after use of 240/rate of 1.5:1
- Ability for Line Holders to call off sick during a sequence if the trip returns through their domicile
-- Must give a minimum of 2 hours notice to Scheduling/Tracking
---Pilot will be paid the remainder of their trip pay including GTR of ACD or actual value
--- In the case above, the pilot will not be charged SK for the day they return to their sequence
- Members physician/medical representative/members AME concurrence for FAA Medical/Mental fitness note required after 15 CONSECUTIVE SK days (not calendar days)
- Pilots may elect to sell back SK at a rate of 1:2 into their STD bank for a maximum of 270 hours after reaching a minimum of 120 hours SK.
-- If a pilot has an STD bank, bank hours will be used first and paid/credited at 1:1 rate
--- Upon depletion of the STD bank, Pilots may elect to use available SK or transfer to STD plan under STD policy
- STD/LTD improvements
-- STD:
--- 80% up to 10,000 tax free, no offsets
--- Begins after 90 hours of sick leave used or 30 days after date of issue reported to company, whichever is less
--- STD bank, if available, will be depleted before company STD starts
--- Sick time may be used up to LTD at member’s discretion after STD Bank (if available) is depleted
--- Terminates after 90 days in conjunction LTD use
- LTD:
-- LTD 80% up to 14,500 tax free/no offsets (based off highest of 3 month prior HI-1 look-back)
-- Active pilot privileges cannot change (pass travel, medical, etc) from what they were at the time of reporting
--- Starts at 90 days of date issue reported to company
--- Members physician/medical representative/members AME concurrence for FAA Medical/Mental fitness LTD Determination – NOT LTD benefit or company provider
--- Medical Provider (from above) Update/Concurrence for FAA Medical/Mental fitness LTD Determination required only every six months after LTD determination for the first 5 years, once per year following.

SEC 13 – SENIORITY
- Seniority dates for pay purposes will be based on pilots DOH with the company (LUS, LAA, etc)
- All pilots below 12 year seniority will revert to DOH for pay and all other pilots on the seniority list will use company DOH for all seniority purposes. In no case will company seniority numbers be re-adjusted
- All pilots below 12 year seniority will be back-paid for DOH losses to include B-fund contribution

SEC 15 – DUTY/PAY (COMPLETE RE-WRITE)
- Duty Rig at greater of 6:00 ACD or 3:1 “F” Time Rig
- “Day” defined as 0000-2359 HBT, elimination of ‘duty periods’ for pay and credit purposes
- MAX On-Duty Times – Change from FAR 117 maximums to:
-- FDP = FAR 117 minus 1 hour for all categories
-- FDP includes all brief/debrief times
-- Extension from FDP up to FAR 117 MAX at crew discretion and paid at PM
-- Extension past FAR 117 re-written to correspond to FAA “Wycliff” Letter
--- Each member of crew must agree to extend past FAR 117
--- PM will carry into FAR117 Extension (this way the pilot is already receiving PM and shouldn’t be exposed to punitive actions by FAA for extending solely for PM
- FAR ‘7 day’ rest CANNOT be inside of a sequence, OR only voluntary and entire sequence is paid at Premium Pay
-- Must be notified 24 hours prior to sequence start or Duty Period/RAP
- Premium pay at 200%
-- Removal of SK offset for premium
-- Premium stacking (refer to Delta premium buckets)
-- Trips originating in a four part bid status MAY NOT be broken up or otherwise transferred to a different base/division without the offering of PM/PR
- Five Premium/Holiday pay days – New Year’s Day, Memorial Day, July 4th, Thanksgiving, Christmas –
-- A sequence touching a Premium Pay Holiday will have that day paid at Premium Pay for the GTR of scheduled/actual or ACD.
- OT paid at 150% for Line Holder (MU) up to 72 hours prior to sequence start
-- Inside 72 hours MU is at 100%
-- Reserves may proffer (see Reserve section)
- Implementation of Aggressive Pick-Up (FCFS OT pick up within 2 hours of sequence start)
-- Available to QLA LC pilots (see Reserve section)
- Company may only ‘hold’ 50% of OE/Training trip needed before bid run
- WOCL “Redeye” Flying (Domestic/Mex/Can)
--WOCL defined as 0200-0559 HBT
--WOCL rig - any part of a sequence that touches WOCL in a duty period will pay that ‘leg’ at an override of $25/hr CA and $18/hr FO
-- For Reserves – Only One Redeye per seq/30 rest after redeye sequence/Only one leg if a Redeye in that duty period
-- For Line holders – retain current PBS layers/restrictions for redeye flying
- International Override (block up to 12 hours) at $10CA/$8FO/FB/FC
- Long Haul Override (block past 12 scheduled) $25CA/$18FO/FB/FC
- Ability to pick up OT on days bought by training (NO restriction on PM, 150% pay for OT for training removal applies up to 72 hours prior to OT sequence sign in)
- Reassignments are voluntary and entire sequence paid at Premium Pay, GTR of scheduled v actual
- Language for TRIP OWNERSHIP - At no point will Line Holders be considered “airport standby reserves”
- Language: Sequence Completion INCLUDES debrief times

RESERVE:
- LC/SC at 5:00 hours per Reserve Day.
-- 15 days per 30 day bid month (75:00 GTD)
-- 16 days per 31 day bid month (80:00 GTD)
-- All portions of reserve days will be paid the GTD of 5:00 or scheduled block hours or actual block hours
- No requirement to check schedule after sequence completion
-- 12 hours rest after sequence completion THEN:
--- Member required to check schedule, however, the following rules apply (see below):
---- LC – you must be contactable per LC callout rules
----- No trips may be assigned during that time that are within the 14 hour LC callout UNLESS waived/proffered by the member
----- LC - 12 hours rest after sequence may reduced to FAR rest if a sequence is proffered when member is QLA (per FAR). This includes Aggressive Pickup.
---- SC – will convert back to next available awarded RAP time
- LC:
-- LC 14 hour call out
-- LC to SC conversion NMT 2x/month – paid 2 hours each time and hotel and A1 pass for each conversion
- SC:
-- No Change to SC callout
-- Set RAPs, only one RAP conversion per block w/ 2 hour pay and credit, can only be moved +/- 2 hours from original block
-- On duty – 12 hours
--- Last 2 hours (after first 10 hour window) are for contact purposes for next day assignments only
- WOCL “Redeye” Assignments:
-- Only one Redeye per sequence (Domestic sequence)
-- 30 rest after redeye sequence (Any)
-- Only one leg if a Redeye in that duty period
- No ‘Moveable Days’ – All off days are ‘Golden’
- MAX duty day – same as line holders
- If flown into a DFP, all duty time after midnight HBT will be paid at PR and credited into the pilot’s variance for groupings at 2:1.
-- DFP start/end times slide 24 hours as a result
- No less than 30% of Reserve lines will be LC
- No less than 30% of Reserve Lines will be SC
- Seniority and PBS Bidding determines LC/SC bid status
- OG flying counts toward monthly GTD for variance group assignments
- Proffering by seniority out of group takes precedence
-- Example – a person in a higher group may proffer and will be awarded a trip if senior to all other junior pilots in lower groups during DOTC
- Pick-up of OT at straight pay/credit and used towards variance groupings within 72 hours of sequence start
-- Does not have to be in their reserve block
-- Must not conflict with a previous trip
- Tradeable blocks of reserve
- Coverage days restriction on PBS (no more than 30% of reserve assigned to coverage days, no more than 4 coverage days p/ bid month)
- PBS Reserve blocks:
-- Must allow for block lengths from 2-6 days on
-- Must allow for (3) 5-day blocks with 1 off, (2) 6-day blocks
- Federal Holidays may have no more than 30% Reserve coverage within 4 part bid status
- No changes to SIN or coming off sick
- Reporting SK, SIN or clearing SK/SIN done via electronic notification in Mobile CCI app
- Variance Groups:
-- Remove RPV calculation
--- 10 hour blocks


MISC:
- No SCOPE gives
- Contract Language for Integration of wholly owned regional partners below the lowest system seniority number (you never know)
- Furlough Protection:
-- Furloughed pilots will be offered CA positions at wholly owned regional partners at each partners top pay rate
--- Pilots will be assigned positions (wholly owned company, bases, equipment) in accordance with existing AA seniority within the furloughed group
--- There is no expiration of position at the wholly owned regional company.
--- Furloughed pilots will be ahead of all regional seniority lists (within AA group furloughed seniority) in regards to seniority, position, bid statuses, pay & benefits
--- Under no circumstances will any wholly owned “flow” until every furloughed pilot has been offered recall
-- Furloughed Pilots will come back on property with full seniority/benefits as if they had been on property
--- Furlough returns will NOT be considered “flow through pilots” upon return
--- Pilots declining recall will return with seniority/benefits at a time when first offered recall
-- Furloughed pilots may sell back their sick leave and accrued vacation at 1:1 with B Fund Contributions
-- Furloughed pilots accepting CA positions at wholly owned partners will keep AA travel and pass benefits for the duration of furlough
- Tighten International block hour protection for JV International SCOPE (one for one on JV on US O/D markets or stronger language)
- One Round trip POSITIVE SPACE, upgradeable ticket p/yr for pilot and companion/eligible children (no blackout dates) replacing 2 D1’s.
-- 4 D1’s for pilot and companion/eligible children
-- D2s/D2Ps and D3 passes remain same
- Medical –
-- Company paid medical plans (to include dental and vision); Employees pay co-pays only Up To $500 per sponsor, $750 for family Tier One plan, Tier Two plan is $250 co-pay and $500 respectfully
--- Tier One Plan Cannot be less coverage than best current plan
--- Company and APA will decide benefit levels for Tier 1 & 2 plans
-- Or – At least Improvements!!! Look at non union employee plans (director and VP level)
--- FedEx plans ($120-396/month for EVERYTHING, including in Network deductible – out of Network refer to APA Contract Comparison)
-- Keep HSA
- Retiree Medical Savings Plan to include accrued SK buy in at 10 hours:1 month for Tier One plan, 5 hours/month for Tier Two Plan
-- Qualifies if retiring before age 65 with 10 years of service to include
--- LTD
--- Furloughed Time
--- Flow through-
---- 5 years of service and 5 years at Wholly Owned Regional
- Long term assisted living group plan (to be equal or better to plans at Fortune 100 companies)
- Life Insurance
-- Up to 10x max pay up to $3,500,000 for member, may elect less
-- $250,000 – 500,000 plans for Spouse/Eligible partner
-- $150,000 – 300,000 plans per Eligible dependent
- Sit Time: Paid 1:2 for anything over 1:30, 1:1 for anything over 2:00 hours; greater of Scheduled OR Actual
- Dead Heading
-- All Deadheads will be A1 positive space except A3 ‘during’ training (traveling on 24’s)
-- All DH must be main cabin extra or premium economy (highest available) aisle or window,
-- DH over 4 hours business/first
--- IF business/first is not available, pilots will be placed in next tier (Premium economy or Main Cabin Extra) with PM for DH portion of sequence (scheduled or actual)
-- Company will develop a preference system within Mobile CCI app for seat choice for all DH’s
-- If company cannot accommodate DH seats, entire DH will be paid PM for portion of sequence (scheduled or actual)
--- Does not apply to current International DH policy, unless waived by the pilot for PM
-- Company will reimburse wifi charges on DH
-- PM for DH violations will be paid above ACD values
--- Example – DH is 2:30 embedded in a 7:00 day, DH will be paid an additional 2:30 over the 7:00
--- If DH is the only scheduled leg for that day and under the ACD value, that day will be paid at ACD x 2
- PBS improvements with the increased association control of all PBS functions
-- Company will provide access to all sequence optimization software with the association
--- PWG or Association designees will work with the company to help assess the sequences going into PBS
--- The company and the association will meet prior to PBS runs to identify sequences the association feels may need to be altered
-- More layers!!!
-- Increased Association control of PBS – Less control by company
-- PBS military lv ‘credit’ – change to pay and credit up to 4 days at 5:00
- Crew Augmentation:
-- 1 CA, 2FO on any leg scheduled over 8 hours, and ALL Oceanic crossings over 6:00 up to 11:59 hours, ALL South America trip south of Bogota touching WOCL, and any other trips the association, FRM team and company agree to
-- 2 CA, 2 FO for block scheduled over 14:00
- Commuting
-- 4 Paid hotels p/month at company hotels for commuters
-- Use of ALL jump-seats in aircraft operating weights
-- Cabin jumseats will be made available with FAs retaining priority, then pilots
-- Jumpseat App incorporated into Jetnet/Mobile CCI
-- Hotels for commuters stuck at base due to IROPS/Cancelations/Fatigue Events
- Fatigue language – No change
- ASAP language – No change
- HOTEL LANGUAGE to match/exceed DAL/UAL/FEDEX
-- 14 hours for Long Hotel unless ‘short’ agreed to by association
-- Same Discounts as other airlines for food/amenities
-- Creation of Hotel Cancelation web board (cancellation tab within mobile CCI). FCFS system for unused hotel rooms
- Crew meals
-- Choices prior to trips (like United), built into mobile CCI app (along with DH preference)
- Mobile CCI upgrade (see ALPA DAL app that uses company info) – like a mobile AApilots
- Trip Trade Ideas
-- TTOT flexibility and dynamic TTS like SWA
-- Return to the ‘spirit’ of AWA/LUS trip trade/drop system
-- Trip Trade Board
-- Can Drop trips to zero time
-- Reserve day/block TTS
-- No green/red/redder
-- Trade parts of sequences
-- Ease of use (mobile applications)
-- The company and APA will have a meeting with multiple THIRD party vendors for a true, live, dynamic TTS and will have the system of choice on line within 1 year of signing the contract

Arado 234
06-27-2018, 05:29 PM
Clarification about those P2 reports, make sure that they cannot be used in any disciplinary action against the pilot (unless it's intentional etc.).

I really hope you are not wasting your time with your effort in putting together this list. I can easily see the reaction from a few APA leaders...

"Sorry, but it wasn't invented here.

Let's go Delta +5% and give up some more stuff. Who's ready to have another $3500 dinner?

Winning!"

OVBIII
06-27-2018, 06:30 PM
Cheddar,

Thanks to you and your friends for putting something out there. That’s a great area to start from. And I definitely echo sending sound offs!

seafeye
06-27-2018, 06:32 PM
RESERVE:
- LC/SC at 5:00 hours per Reserve Day.
-- 15 days per 30 day bid month (75:00 GTD)
-- 16 days per 31 day bid month (80:00 GTD)
-- All portions of reserve days will be paid the GTD of 5:00 or scheduled block hours or actual block hours
- No requirement to check schedule after sequence completion
-- 12 hours rest after sequence completion THEN:
--- Member required to check schedule, however, the following rules apply (see below):
---- LC – you must be contactable per LC callout rules
----- No trips may be assigned during that time that are within the 14 hour LC callout UNLESS waived/proffered by the member
----- LC - 12 hours rest after sequence may reduced to FAR rest if a sequence is proffered when member is QLA (per FAR). This includes Aggressive Pickup.
---- SC – will convert back to next available awarded RAP time
- LC:
-- LC 14 hour call out
-- LC to SC conversion NMT 2x/month – paid 2 hours each time and hotel and A1 pass for each conversion
- SC:
-- No Change to SC callout




I like the above reserve rates....

Today As you look at the reserves this month. You will see a large group flying close to guarantee. And having sat reserve for 1-6 days.
That’s up to 6 days being on call for free.

Reserve needs to be looked at per calendar day.

Example:

Doug Parker asks us to be on call right now for 19 days a month. In exchange he will pay us 76 hours a month.
But what if we fly 8 hours in one day? We are basically flying 3:38min for free. Anything really over 4:22 is free flying

Is it acceptable to fly for free?

Cheddar
06-27-2018, 07:05 PM
No, it’s not. Send in those soundoffs!


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Cactusone
06-27-2018, 08:34 PM
Hourly pay transitions from Group A/C based to seniority/position based over the next 4 years.

Commuters pilots will receive 4 commute passes per month between AA hubs.

Pilots are authorized to ride FA jumpseats.

Mover
06-28-2018, 06:34 AM
Why are you posting this on a public message board? Should we really be negotiating against ourselves in public?

minibus
06-28-2018, 09:14 AM
You do realize we are represented by APA? One non concessionary contract in 35 years. Vishnu only knows the dues money that has been collected during that time.. If we get an industry leading contract it will be because Dougie et all. choses to do so and not for any negotiating prowess displayed by your " union". Sad but true.

MarineGrunt
06-28-2018, 09:27 AM
Cheddar: great list!!! I think you’ve done a great service by putting that together.... PLEASE take the time to bring it to a rep, sit down over dinner to discuss it! Lots of things in it that I like. I previously said that I will never vote for a contract with RO language in it, but your option changed my mind a bit..

Buzzlightyear
06-28-2018, 09:33 AM
Good work Cheddar. Can we assume you’ve forwarded these ideas to the negotiating committee and it’s chair?

Cheddar
06-28-2018, 09:37 AM
Why are you posting this on a public message board?

I’m posting ideas and a list that we came up with in comparison to other Legacies, Majors and FedEx. The hope is that APA members in good standing would get their imagination spurred and send soundoffs and emails to the 2020contract share point with things that are important to them.

It was also to show what other companies have, and that these things are realistic. But again, if you like any of this, cut/paste/edit/refine but send in your thoughts as to C2020.

Should we really be negotiating against ourselves in public?


I’m not sure I understand your question. Non of us have any agency in a negotiation amongst ourselves - or to go even further - “how” can we “negotiate amongst ourselves?”

As for me, I have full faith in the NC chair and a few others on the committee. I was lucky enough to have EF in the jumpseat several times and he is very impressive. He has universal praise from East/West and LAA factions within the APA.

I don’t envy his task, but I’m thankful it’s him. Negotiators have asked for ideas AND soundoffs... maybe it’s to convince some feckless members of the BoD that there is a large contingent that wants more than a few more $$$

Let’s help them out please



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Cheddar
06-28-2018, 09:48 AM
Thanks everyone - but it wasn’t all me. It’s been sent to the C2020 email site (on the APA Negotiation tab) and will be formatted for soundoffs shortly.

Again - IF there are sections you agree with - cut paste and send. If there’s stuff that you’d like to see that’s different - write it down and send it! This is YOUR chance to be heard.

As for talking with the NC or Reps - None of us that contributed to this are in any way “connected” - and in fact the few friends that we have that are volunteers were excluded because we didn’t want any institutional bias.




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Mover
06-28-2018, 12:48 PM
I’m posting ideas and a list that we came up with in comparison to other Legacies, Majors and FedEx. The hope is that APA members in good standing would get their imagination spurred and send soundoffs and emails to the 2020contract share point with things that are important to them.

It was also to show what other companies have, and that these things are realistic. But again, if you like any of this, cut/paste/edit/refine but send in your thoughts as to C2020.




I’m not sure I understand your question. Non of us have any agency in a negotiation amongst ourselves - or to go even further - “how” can we “negotiate amongst ourselves?”

As for me, I have full faith in the NC chair and a few others on the committee. I was lucky enough to have EF in the jumpseat several times and he is very impressive. He has universal praise from East/West and LAA factions within the APA.

I don’t envy his task, but I’m thankful it’s him. Negotiators have asked for ideas AND soundoffs... maybe it’s to convince some feckless members of the BoD that there is a large contingent that wants more than a few more $$$

Let’s help them out please



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This is a very public message board. Why not keep this list where it originated?

By discussing/debating/etc. this out and the open, we're tipping our hand (especially as the public discussion continues) as to what we'll accept, thus negotiating against ourselves.

There's a reason the group this came from is private.

Cheddar
06-28-2018, 02:29 PM
If you are insinuating that I lifted this from a private three letter Facebook group to put it out in the open - you are incorrect.

It was ALSO posted there. Again, the idea is to get people to see what’s out there and write their own soundoffs. There are two main co-authors and we had input from four-five others. Everyone involved knew the objective - and that was to inform, and hopefully get as many people involved with the write in process as possible.

None of us have ANY KNOWLEDGE of negotiation strategies or objectives.

As for the company being ‘tipped,’ then we shouldn’t talk about anything we ‘want.’

Please feel free to pm me if you want or you can DM me on Facebook.



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Mover
06-29-2018, 04:14 AM
If you are insinuating that I lifted this from a private three letter Facebook group to put it out in the open - you are incorrect.

It was ALSO posted there. Again, the idea is to get people to see what’s out there and write their own soundoffs. There are two main co-authors and we had input from four-five others. Everyone involved knew the objective - and that was to inform, and hopefully get as many people involved with the write in process as possible.

None of us have ANY KNOWLEDGE of negotiation strategies or objectives.

As for the company being ‘tipped,’ then we shouldn’t talk about anything we ‘want.’

Please feel free to pm me if you want or you can DM me on Facebook.



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I just don't understand the value in putting this out in the open on this public forum when we have more private venues to discuss it.

Frip
06-29-2018, 05:15 AM
Resere Days Off o n actual days off.

No movable days.
No being scheduled up until noon on your fist day off.

For those who do not know, Movable days are for their use, not the pilot's.

And...

Four positive space passes each month for every pilot.
Bankable, and usable by said pilot's family members.
I like to spend time with my kids too.

Route66
06-29-2018, 05:45 AM
Why are you posting this on a public message board? Should we really be negotiating against ourselves in public?

How come you guys don’t try to keep up on current events? For the American guys(and only the American guys) why don’t you go to the latest 20Dec2018 crew news and listen to #4 on the list. He will explain Project Ivan.

That’s all I’ll say. And that about sums up what your up against in 2020.

Smoke Toliet
06-29-2018, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE=Mover;2623890]This is a very public message board. Why not keep this list where it originated?

By discussing/debating/etc. this out and the open, we're tipping our hand (especially as the public discussion continues) as to what we'll accept, thus negotiating against ourselves.

It doesn’t make a differerance whether it’s public or not, they are very sharp when it comes to knowing what we want in a contract. APA has had its ass handed to them multiple times. There’s no sneak attack coming. It’s better to get this info out in the open and educate our guys how far behind me are. That actually might motivate our guys. Right now USAir captains are just happy making more then $128 a hr and the almighty nAAtives still think they are the greatest. Both need to open there eyes.

mainlineAF
06-29-2018, 03:00 PM
How come you guys don’t try to keep up on current events? For the American guys(and only the American guys) why don’t you go to the latest 20Dec2018 crew news and listen to #4 on the list. He will explain Project Ivan.



That’s all I’ll say. And that about sums up what your up against in 2020.



Listening to that segment sure made me feel better about the debt load AA carries.

Reminds me why i don’t listen to the expert financial/business advice of most pilots.

Cheddar
06-29-2018, 03:39 PM
It doesn’t make a differerance whether it’s public or not, they are very sharp when it comes to knowing what we want in a contract. APA has had its ass handed to them multiple times. There’s no sneak attack coming. It’s better to get this info out in the open and educate our guys how far behind me are. That actually might motivate our guys. Right now USAir captains are just happy making more then $128 a hr and the almighty nAAtives still think they are the greatest. Both need to open there eyes.


Exactly this.



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flydc
06-29-2018, 04:49 PM
Cheddar, I appreciate what you’re doing here. Ignore the naysayers.

Cheddar
06-29-2018, 05:12 PM
Thanks - to Movers’ credit - there was a document created several months (a year?) ago on a FB group that I’m (as are the other contributors) a member of. While that document is good - its not mine to post or discuss and that is where I think the confusion comes in. The one that is posted here is completely different and was also posted to the FB group the other day.

This “list” came from a long text chain from guys in my squadron that was more of a “AYFKM - our contract is this bad?!?” That transformed to me getting bored one day and asking all my buddies what we’d like to see. I mentioned some of these ideas to APA ‘insiders’ - and although well intended, we got the typical answer.

So, we (well I) went to the APA contract comparison tables and several newer TA’s from “lesser companies” and was quite surprised as to what is out there, and what might be achievable. So all of our “wants and needs” became more focused with what I and the others truly think is achievable.

The ultimate goal was information to us, and to be able to send stuff to anyone that would listen.

As one of the posters (and list contributors) here said best while we were having an adult beverage is quite simply: this is our multi-million dollar business and we need to invest in it in as much as we can. With that in mind, cut and paste if you like, if not send in your own ideas (they’re probably better) but do something!


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Cheddar
06-29-2018, 05:24 PM
Also,

Feel free to use this or post this wherever ever. It’s just our idea of a much better contract, so the more it’s spread the better chance it gets some traction. That being said, I won’t debate other people’s ideas (many are probably better that we haven’t thought out as all 5 year and below guys) or what I’m willing to give up to get stuff. That to me would be negotiating against ourselves and tipping off the company.

Consider me closer to a FUPM guy when it comes to C2020. I know what we are worth, and it’s a lot.

Laker24
06-29-2018, 05:41 PM
You should run for office. It’s been said many times APA needs some new blood with higher expectations.

Route66
06-30-2018, 04:13 AM
Listening to that segment sure made me feel better about the debt load AA carries.

Reminds me why i don’t listen to the expert financial/business advice of most pilots.

I was referring to how DP was able to increase the pay WITHOUT THE UNION. Project Ivan. The point: THE UNION DIDNT NEGOTIATE THE PAY RAISES.

The debt explanation certainly helps.

SilverandSore
06-30-2018, 05:26 AM
...why don’t you go to the latest 20Dec2018 crew news and listen to #4 on the list. He will explain Project Ivan.
...

Where in the hell do I find this again?

Cheddar
06-30-2018, 06:31 AM
I hate to say it, but even I think Route66 is correct on this. As much as I am anti-union in my current philosophical leanings however, it would be folly to think we are better off without representation than with. The reason this company does anything is in the best interest of the board and shareholders. The employees are wAAyyyy down on the list.

You can find the new crew news link on Jetnet.

As for me running for office - consider this my contribution to the membership. The guy who helped me the most is on this board - he’s younger and is a lot more energetic and talented than me. Hopefully he’ll contribute when he’s not too busy drinking Mai Tais. I’d prefer him run and I’ll drink his bourbon and tell him where he’s screwing up.

Soundoffs and emails!


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Arado 234
06-30-2018, 07:52 AM
Not sure if it has been mentioned before, but I want a mandatory time frame when contractual stuff gets implemented. No more "not yet implemented". Upper management $$$ got implemented really quick.

Fly21
06-30-2018, 10:13 AM
Not sure if it has been mentioned before, but I want a mandatory time frame when contractual stuff gets implemented. No more "not yet implemented". Upper management $$$ got implemented really quick.


This......I mean, when does Average Calendar Day even get implemented? I keep hearing August or September.

Route66
06-30-2018, 07:11 PM
Where in the hell do I find this again?

Jetnet. Crew news. Just do a search. It’s there.

Route66
06-30-2018, 07:13 PM
Where in the hell do I find this again?

https://newjetnet.aa.com/docs/DOC-30005

You’ll have to login. Only American pilots.

Route66
06-30-2018, 07:15 PM
This......I mean, when does Average Calendar Day even get implemented? I keep hearing August or September.

January 1, 2019.

drinksonme
06-30-2018, 11:25 PM
So life insurance? Did I miss that or was that in the list?

Cause the 70,000 payout is a complete insult to our families if we should pass away.

Cheddar
07-01-2018, 04:19 AM
It’s at the end. Similar to UAL/SWA


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Name User
07-01-2018, 07:18 AM
So life insurance? Did I miss that or was that in the list?

Cause the 70,000 payout is a complete insult to our families if we should pass away.

You are allowed to purchase your own. I don't know why all these additional things are included in our benefit package, I'd prefer to focus on medical for benefits and let everything else be a la carte.

cactusmike
07-01-2018, 08:30 AM
You are allowed to purchase your own. I don't know why all these additional things are included in our benefit package, I'd prefer to focus on medical for benefits and let everything else be a la carte.


You shouldn’t have to purchase your own. Everyone else gets it paid for.

Cheddar, great ideas. Keep the thoughts flowing.

Sliceback
07-01-2018, 10:47 AM
APA contract comparison -

DL - $825,825
UA - 1,026 x hourly rate. $100,000 minimum.
AA - $70,000. $105,000 under 50.
SW - $50,000
AK - $150,000
FX - $800,000

Optional stuff in the comparison.

Name User
07-01-2018, 10:59 AM
You shouldn’t have to purchase your own. Everyone else gets it paid for.

Cheddar, great ideas. Keep the thoughts flowing.

Maybe you should let me decide what I want to do with the premium the company pays? If you want to spend the money on it go nuts, but don't force me to take a hit somewhere else in the contract for an optional thing that doesn't effect my QWL.

PRS Guitars
07-01-2018, 11:35 AM
You shouldn’t have to purchase your own. Everyone else gets it paid for.

Cheddar, great ideas. Keep the thoughts flowing.

While it’d be nice to have an option to buy it through the company at reduced rates, nameuser makes a good point. Term life insurance is mainly for people with dependents. A single person with no kids doesn’t need it, and would pay for it under your scenario.

drinksonme
07-01-2018, 12:33 PM
You are allowed to purchase your own. I don't know why all these additional things are included in our benefit package, I'd prefer to focus on medical for benefits and let everything else be a la carte.

Yep and I do, but I personally want to give as much as I can to my family should something happen to me. I can’t actually believe you would not want as much coverage as you can get. And as the above noted “EVERYONE” has something far better then us. Why in the world would you NOT want it if they will give it. A group policy as large as ours cost the company literally nothing and it’s a write off for them as well. Unreal you actually are for not getting something that is an actual benefit to your family. The company shows how much they actually care about families when they give benefits. As far as I’ve seen, AA doesn’t care about families. Benefits are garbage and that reflects what they think of you and yours. Truly insulting

mainlineAF
07-01-2018, 02:34 PM
Yep and I do, but I personally want to give as much as I can to my family should something happen to me. I can’t actually believe you would not want as much coverage as you can get. And as the above noted “EVERYONE” has something far better then us. Why in the world would you NOT want it if they will give it. A group policy as large as ours cost the company literally nothing and it’s a write off for them as well. Unreal you actually are for not getting something that is an actual benefit to your family. The company shows how much they actually care about families when they give benefits. As far as I’ve seen, AA doesn’t care about families. Benefits are garbage and that reflects what they think of you and yours. Truly insulting



“AA doesn’t care about families”. It’s a for-profit business not a charitable organization.

We get what we negotiate. Idk why everyone takes everything so personally.

drinksonme
07-01-2018, 03:07 PM
While it’d be nice to have an option to buy it through the company at reduced rates, nameuser makes a good point. Term life insurance is mainly for people with dependents. A single person with no kids doesn’t need it, and would pay for it under your scenario.

Name the number of single pilots that work here. Bet you it’s not over 5%. Here’s a better way to put it. Name how many pilots at AA don’t have beneficiaries. You know your brother/sisters, niece/nephew, can be one. So tell me how many AA pilots have literally zero people that could be a beneficiary, and tell you how many of them need project wingman

FLPS30GRDWN
07-01-2018, 05:11 PM
You know your brother/sisters, niece/nephew, can be one. So tell me how many AA pilots have literally zero people that could be a beneficiary, and tell you how many of them need project wingman


We’re not debating what we should or shouldn’t have in the upcoming contract, only pointing to what we could have. If you feel that strongly about not wanting life insurance share it with your NC and reps.

This forum is for education... drinks makes a good point that could change someone’s perspective towards valuing a better life insurance plan (even for a single person).

You can list anyone or even an entity as a beneficiary. (Leave it to your favorite dog if you want.)

Cheddar
07-01-2018, 08:08 PM
I understand not wanting to “pay” for something you don’t want - or feel you may never use. In our list, it’s “up to...” because it’s the member’s choice if s/he wants to pay into anything above a base plan.

Same should go with medical. I would ask everyone on this board to go look at other medical plans - especially FedEx. Ours PALES by comparison. We should definitely have different tiers - my needs are probably different from others...




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Route66
07-02-2018, 03:32 AM
I understand not wanting to “pay” for something you don’t want - or feel you may never use. In our list, it’s “up to...” because it’s the member’s choice if s/he wants to pay into anything above a base plan.

Same should go with medical. I would ask everyone on this board to go look at other medical plans - especially FedEx. Ours PALES by comparison. We should definitely have different tiers - my needs are probably different from others...

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Maybe a contract should be like a menu. The FIRST thing I would change is pay is based on years of service. Not the seniority list. Hopefully this will change in the years to come when private unions will get treated the same as the Supreme Court just did with public unions.

Then I could choose pay or benefits independent of union conflict.

Each employee negotiates his own Project Ivan.

Name User
07-02-2018, 05:44 AM
Yep and I do, but I personally want to give as much as I can to my family should something happen to me. I can’t actually believe you would not want as much coverage as you can get. And as the above noted “EVERYONE” has something far better then us. Why in the world would you NOT want it if they will give it. A group policy as large as ours cost the company literally nothing and it’s a write off for them as well. Unreal you actually are for not getting something that is an actual benefit to your family. The company shows how much they actually care about families when they give benefits. As far as I’ve seen, AA doesn’t care about families. Benefits are garbage and that reflects what they think of you and yours. Truly insulting
My wife will be fine if I die. If we both die my sister will become a millionaire overnight even without any insurance money. She is 32, four years younger than I am. How much is "enough"? Just like the company isn't in business to care for my family (that is my job) I'm not in business to ensure (insure!) my siblings can live on a yacht in their early 30's. They have made their own choices in life, just like I have made mine.

Hey guess what, salaries are also a "write off" for the company. As are charitable donations for you. Why not just donate all of your salary, because you know, it's a "write off".

Let me decide what benefits my family, not you. It's like the guy suggesting commuters get free flights and free hotels on that contract thread. No, FU. That has a big cost and doesn't benefit anyone who chose to make the sacrifice and move to base (I commute BTW).

Pay, work rules, hotel language, medical benefits etc benefit everyone. (although I would like to see a credit for those who choose to not take a medical plan, my wife's ex employer gave her $250/month to not take any and we put her on mine at AA)

AA cares for my family by giving me a solid pay check and job security. Beyond that what else do you want them to do? Maybe they can send a rep over to change your kids diapers to show "they care".

Name User
07-02-2018, 05:46 AM
While it’d be nice to have an option to buy it through the company at reduced rates, nameuser makes a good point. Term life insurance is mainly for people with dependents. A single person with no kids doesn’t need it, and would pay for it under your scenario.

I was under the impression it was an option? Maybe thru APA? I can't remember. But yes I would totally support that, just like additional benefits like the legal plans. A one stop shop for us. With over 100k employees I'm guessing the CO could negotiate good rates.

typical41
07-02-2018, 12:46 PM
Let me decide what benefits my family, not you. It's like the guy suggesting commuters get free flights and free hotels on that contract thread. No, FU. That has a big cost and doesn't benefit anyone who chose to make the sacrifice and move to base (I commute BTW).

Pay, work rules, hotel language, medical benefits etc benefit everyone. (although I would like to see a credit for those who choose to not take a medical plan, my wife's ex employer gave her $250/month to not take any and we put her on mine at AA)


Hotels for commuters, believe it or not, benefits the company more than the cost. So it actually saves them money in the long run. So many less sick calls and mis-commutes. It is a huge thing for commuter pilots out there, while I would still argue, along with all other regional airline heads, that paying for commuter hotels is an even bigger benefit for the company...So much so that it negates the cost of the hotels. Now management will of course claim there is a cost to this, but an effective negotiator will prove this point in negotiations.

IMHO, I don't think we should ONLY try for improvements that benefit 95-100% of the pilot group. Sometimes 50% is enough of justification to support a contract improvement. If we only tried for things that benefits that ultra high percentage of pilots, we would still be lacking in so many areas.

I also want better medical plans, but many people tell me that I should not want to fight for that b.c. such a large % of our pilots have other (non- AA) medical plans they use; that it would be a waste of negotiating capital. I just don't agree with that logic. Especially when our plans don't stack up well with our competitors plans.

FLPS30GRDWN
07-02-2018, 07:00 PM
I also want better medical plans, but many people tell me that I should not want to fight for that b.c. such a large % of our pilots have other (non- AA) medical plans they use; that it would be a waste of negotiating capital. I just don't agree with that logic. Especially when our plans don't stack up well with our competitors plans.


If we had a FedEx medical everyone who has their own plans would be bailing for the company plan.

Cactusone
07-02-2018, 10:19 PM
Commuting benefits (hotels a3 passes etc ) allow you to bid better paying $$$ equipment wherever your seniority can hold without taking a qol hit. If pilots at aa don’t see the positive in that until after delta and United have it then this is going to be a AAwefully disappointing contract for all.


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Frip
07-03-2018, 04:25 PM
Positive space travel and hotel rooms!!

Awesome!!!

That's for everyone, right?

Stand by for for the me too, and there are 100k more of them then there are us.

PRS Guitars
07-03-2018, 06:22 PM
Positive space travel and hotel rooms!!

Awesome!!!

That's for everyone, right?

Stand by for for the me too, and there are 100k more of them then there are us.

Look at Delta’s Pilot profit sharing. Vastly superior to every other employee group. Our profit sharing is the same as every other employee group and there in lies the problem...we shouldn’t give in to the “me too” mindset.

Name User
07-03-2018, 07:50 PM
Look at Delta’s Pilot profit sharing. Vastly superior to every other employee group. Our profit sharing is the same as every other employee group and there in lies the problem...we shouldn’t give in to the “me too” mindset.
What groups are unionized at Delta?

How about AA?

Jaxs170
07-04-2018, 05:00 AM
Look at Delta’s Pilot profit sharing. Vastly superior to every other employee group. Our profit sharing is the same as every other employee group and there in lies the problem...we shouldn’t give in to the “me too” mindset.

Late last year management put the non-contract employees back on the same profit sharing program as the pilots (as a percentage of payout).

In 2016 they put them on a different plan in exchange for a pay raise, then handed the old program back free of charge effective Q4 2017.


The big difference in our plan is we get the 16% 401k contribution to go along with the payout, just as though it was regular pay. I do not believe any other group (DAL or otherwise) gets this.

Frip
07-04-2018, 05:27 AM
we shouldn't give in to the me-too mindset

We don't, so much.

AA does, and that is both the problem and the reality.

NTL... I am really excited to have free positive space travel and free hotel rooms for my travels... Bring it on.:D

PRS Guitars
07-09-2018, 01:21 PM
I think now is the time for a scope grab by the pilots. >50 seat flown at mainline at group 1 rates (which need to be raised).

Regionalsuck
07-09-2018, 02:55 PM
The big difference in our plan is we get the 16% 401k contribution to go along with the payout, just as though it was regular pay. I do not believe any other group (DAL or otherwise) gets this.

Huh?

DAL also gets 16% contribution + 10% of company profits under $2.5B plus 20% over $2.5B, split pro-rata between all eligible employees.
3780

LIOG41
07-09-2018, 05:11 PM
Doesn’t United and Delta start and will prob finish their new contract before us?

Name User
07-09-2018, 05:48 PM
I think now is the time for a scope grab by the pilots. >50 seat flown at mainline at group 1 rates (which need to be raised).

Would be nice but we have all the me too clauses that kill that. From FAs to fleet service. If it were pilots only I'd think it wouldn't be an issue.

N10DJ
07-09-2018, 06:58 PM
Doesn’t United and Delta start and will prob finish their new contract before us?

I’ve been wondering the same thing. I think United may be in early openers already. I’m not sure about Delta. I personally would love for them to do contracts before us. That way we don’t use the benchmark of their current contract just for them to sign new deals and leave us in the dust again.

PRS Guitars
07-09-2018, 07:32 PM
Would be nice but we have all the me too clauses that kill that. From FAs to fleet service. If it were pilots only I'd think it wouldn't be an issue.

Well, if we fly them, it would have to be with mainline FA’s, we can’t fly with FA’s from another company. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

Regionalsuck
07-10-2018, 08:12 AM
Doesn’t United and Delta start and will prob finish their new contract before us?

UAL’s 2 year extension runs until 1/2019

DAL contract is through 12/2019

Not sure when their openers start. Our openers start in 174 days.

Name User
07-10-2018, 08:27 AM
Well, if we fly them, it would have to be with mainline FA’s, we can’t fly with FA’s from another company. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

Yes that's my point. It's not just pilot costs. But as we use negotiating capital to grab more scope, we generate increased costs and jobs for all other employee groups. FAs, fleet service, dispatch, mx, gate/ticket agents, etc.

Our scope and negotiating capital is what keeps every other union employee group on property.

mainlineAF
07-10-2018, 08:49 AM
The biggest hold up to a new contract will be an over reach by the CLT/PHL/UDC reps. The same thing they did that ruined negotiations with the JCBA.

We need solid gains but we can’t be out in left field compared to UA/DL with our asks.

Cue the “company man” trolls.

AAL24
07-10-2018, 09:13 AM
The biggest hold up to a new contract will be an over reach by the CLT/PHL/UDC reps. The same thing they did that ruined negotiations with the JCBA.

We need solid gains but we can’t be out in left field compared to UA/DL with our asks.

Cue the “company man” trolls.

Agree 100%. The pilots based in those domiciles need to vote those guys out ASAP. They are in effective bitter old dudes.

Another challenge will be getting everyone to pull in the same direction. C&R has become a cesspool of guns, religion, and political debates. We need to focus on securing a contract and drop the BS.

Sliceback
07-10-2018, 09:46 AM
The biggest hold up to a new contract will be an over reach by the CLT/PHL/UDC reps. The same thing they did that ruined negotiations with the JCBA.

We need solid gains but we can’t be out in left field compared to UA/DL with our asks.

Cue the “company man” trolls.

I think the UDC guys were actually the DCA guys. And one, or both, are no longer in office.

mainlineAF
07-10-2018, 09:47 AM
I think the UDC guys were actually the DCA guys. And one, or both, are no longer in office.



Ya i messed that up. It’s LAX that wants a full rewrite of the entire contract along with PHL and CLT.

Cheddar
07-11-2018, 02:48 PM
An entire rewrite doesn’t have to be ‘bad’ for the company - they actually talked to us about a rewrite of sec 15 but politics on both sides got in the way. There are numerous things that would benefit us as well as the company - and are actually “gives for us” - things that even I don’t think are appropriate to be mentioned here. IOW - We can get things from the company for our concessions - that actually we want - a double win for us. Talk to your reps or people in CCC/FTDT.

As for big QWL gains - the company knows they are dreadfully behind on those as well. Settling now for mediocrity at this point BEFORE UAL/DAL signs is darn near criminally negligent.


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Cheddar
07-11-2018, 02:50 PM
Also - EARLY OPENERS are Jan 2019 IF both parties agree. Otherwise it’s Jan 2020.


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blastoff
07-11-2018, 06:46 PM
Also - EARLY OPENERS are Jan 2019 IF both parties agree. Otherwise it’s Jan 2020.


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Only one party required. It's going to happen.


JCBA Section 26 D. Early Opener: "If written notice is provided by either party at least thirty (30) days prior to January 1, 2019, the parties agree to commence negotiations in January 2019."

PRS Guitars
07-11-2018, 07:03 PM
Only one party required. It's going to happen.


JCBA Section 26 D. Early Opener: "If written notice is provided by either party at least thirty (30) days prior to January 1, 2019, the parties agree to commence negotiations in January 2019."

I’m not interested in early openers, I’d rather wait until UAL/DAL get a contract.i realize that means the APAwould not be pulling it’s weight in pattern bargaining...I just don’t have confidence in our union to make QOL gains.

Cheddar
07-11-2018, 07:49 PM
I’m not interested in early openers, I’d rather wait until UAL/DAL get a contract.i realize that means the APAwould not be pulling it’s weight in pattern bargaining...I just don’t have confidence in our union to make QOL gains.



Agreed. I’d rather we pull our weight for the next round. We should not be quick to settle.


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Cheddar
07-11-2018, 07:50 PM
Only one party required. It's going to happen.





JCBA Section 26 D. Early Opener: "If written notice is provided by either party at least thirty (30) days prior to January 1, 2019, the parties agree to commence negotiations in January 2019."



Thanks - totally misread (or misremembered) that.


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mainlineAF
07-11-2018, 08:09 PM
I talked to Dan at one of the concourse conversations recently. If the BOD doesn’t torpedo anything i think he and the rest of the negotiatiors can get us a solid deal in a short amount of time.

AAL24
07-11-2018, 10:07 PM
I talked to Dan at one of the concourse conversations recently. If the BOD doesn’t torpedo anything i think he and the rest of the negotiatiors can get us a solid deal in a short amount of time.

“Solid deal” does not sound like an industry leading deal.

Name User
07-12-2018, 11:41 AM
“Solid deal” does not sound like an industry leading deal.

Who cares if it's good for us. Put your pecker away and forget about the measuring contest for a little while.

I have zero desire to pull a United and topple the company with our contract. I would much rather work for a sustainable company than one where labor continuously cuts it down at its knees and we slowly decay, ie US Airways.

seafeye
07-12-2018, 11:54 AM
Can we get paid to fly on reserve?
Currently anything over 4:22 we fly we do it for $0.00/hour.

Regionalsuck
07-12-2018, 12:36 PM
Who cares if it's good for us. Put your pecker away and forget about the measuring contest for a little while.

I have zero desire to pull a United and topple the company with our contract. I would much rather work for a sustainable company than one where labor continuously cuts it down at its knees and we slowly decay, ie US Airways.

The executives and shareholders love to hear employees talk like that. It = more money for them to grab for themselves, while the company still decays either way. It's the way things are done now. :rolleyes: Then when the company goes into a downturn inevitably again due to years of poor shortsighted decisions based on stock prices and equity payouts instead of long term company health, they will kick you in the nuts and demand to take even more back from you or the bankruptcy court will force it out of you.

I don't think any "long term" pilots want to harm the company due to a contract, but you better take your fair share while the getting is good or someone else certainly will take your share for you.

I would probably agree with you if we didn't live in a world where executives make 200-300X their average employee and decisions weren't made on short term stock price movement and performance based equity incentives being the primary motivation of the decision makers. Instead of long term company health being the priority.

PRS Guitars
07-12-2018, 02:20 PM
I talked to Dan at one of the concourse conversations recently. If the BOD doesn’t torpedo anything i think he and the rest of the negotiatiors can get us a solid deal in a short amount of time.

I think “solid” refers to pay rates in DC’s eyes. He doesn’t strike me as caring about or even understanding QOL & work rule improvements, or there effect on our W2.

mainlineAF
07-12-2018, 03:16 PM
I think “solid” refers to pay rates in DC’s eyes. He doesn’t strike me as caring about or even understanding QOL & work rule improvements, or there effect on our W2.



Thankfully your assumption is wrong. Dan has been at AA for 34 years. Of course he understands QOL Issues and their effect on w2. The ‘nAATive’ stereotype of LAA guys only caring about pay rates definitely cannot be used against him.

Industry leading pay, profit sharing equal to UA/DL, trip ownership/ improved pay for reassignments, fixes to LTD/STD and a host of other things are all thoroughly on his radar.

Now isn’t the time for our infighting to detract from getting us a much-improved contract.

Varks
07-12-2018, 04:48 PM
Dan has been here for 34 years but has never experienced what narrow body pilots do today. He does seem to appreciate the career he has had but he ain’t doing what we are doing. Up until the late 1990’s it was 3 days on and 4 off. He lived in base and a junior one at that. He may understand what we do but he has never lived it.

Dan is a politician. He is going to tell you what you want to here. For instance video of him saying he will be fiscally conservative with our dues. From what I have heard it is worse than ever. I do not dislike Dan but he is an ass.

Cheddar
07-12-2018, 05:26 PM
Who cares if it's good for us. Put your pecker away and forget about the measuring contest for a little while.

I have zero desire to pull a United and topple the company with our contract. I would much rather work for a sustainable company than one where labor continuously cuts it down at its knees and we slowly decay, ie US Airways.



I actually agree with this in theory - however - this is a different time. We could pay for our dream contract with a quarter of stock buy backs. Doug has even said this openly. Even in this most recent ‘bad’ quarter - we are printing billions a year.


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ORDinary
07-12-2018, 05:49 PM
Who cares if it's good for us. Put your pecker away and forget about the measuring contest for a little while.

I have zero desire to pull a United and topple the company with our contract. I would much rather work for a sustainable company than one where labor continuously cuts it down at its knees and we slowly decay, ie US Airways.

Is this a joke? Topple the company? They are raking in billions.

AAL24
07-12-2018, 06:07 PM
Who cares if it's good for us. Put your pecker away and forget about the measuring contest for a little while.

I have zero desire to pull a United and topple the company with our contract. I would much rather work for a sustainable company than one where labor continuously cuts it down at its knees and we slowly decay, ie US Airways.

You sound so weak and naive. Do you think if you signed a Mesa contract tomorrow that Parker would take those savings and roll them into shoring up the balance sheet? Hell no. It would be spent on share buybacks and executive compensation.

A major airline pilot should be similar to a commodity. Delta/UAL/AAL Pilots should all cost more or less the same. Somehow Parker can pay the same price for a barrel of oil as Delta. He can afford to buy jets just like delta. But he can’t afford to pay the same for his pilots? You’ve been brainwashed...I suggest you spend less time thinking about my pecker and more time contemplating your worth as a professional pilot.

US Airways had the lowest pilot costs amongst the majors for about 14 years. Did that translate into a powerhouse company?

ALF659
07-17-2018, 04:55 PM
The biggest hold up to a new contract will be an over reach by the CLT/PHL/UDC reps. The same thing they did that ruined negotiations with the JCBA.

We need solid gains but we can’t be out in left field compared to UA/DL with our asks.

Cue the “company man” trolls.

One of the CLT reps is already gone and his replacement is the most junior pilot on the BOD. Elections underway for the fall with several junior FOs on the ballot and strong support for them from the FO side.