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View Full Version : Winning


guppie
06-29-2018, 08:55 PM
Big win for the Trump Administration. And guess how many of those 150 co-sponsors of National Right to Work legislation are Democrats? Yep. None. Back the PAC!


Supreme Court Ruling on Janus vs. AFSCME

Yesterday's Supreme Court ruling on Janus vs. AFSCME overruled a four-decade-old precedent and is a major loss for the public-sector workers who join together and collectively bargain for their pay, work rules, and benefits.

This decision allows some employees the ability to ride the coattails of union workers. In the short term, these "free riders" will gain an advantage without contributing the dues money, time, or effort needed to improve their lives. In the long term, the reduced resources will affect everyone. Although this is a setback to organized labor, the overwhelming majority of workers understand that remaining unified is the best way to fight back against efforts to silence our collective voice.

The Janus decision applies to public-sector unions and does not change the laws affecting ALPA membership. However, the so-called "right to work" legislation being pushed in Congress by a minority group of Republicans seeks to achieve similar goals for non-public unions. There are currently 122 co-sponsors in the House, which is below the 218 required for passage, and 28 co-sponsors in the Senate.

The UAL MEC Legislative Affairs Committee is working closely with ALPA National's Government Affairs team to ensure our representatives in Congress know that ALPA pilots are united in our opposition to this legislation. You can help our efforts by joining ALPA-PAC and United Pilot PAC (UP-PAC) via these links:


blizzue
06-30-2018, 02:30 AM
I am so sick of winning.

APC225
06-30-2018, 02:35 AM
Listened to an interview with Janus. Interviewer pressed him as to why he brought suit and he kept saying that by being forced to pay dues he was forced into giving up his Constitutional freedom of association, forced into giving up his Constitutional freedom of speech. Wished the interviewer had just asked, "Who forced you to work there? Why not just leave?"


UASCOMPILOT
06-30-2018, 02:40 AM
Maybe some people don't think the union's are winning for them! This ruling will hold the Unions feet to the fire to perform or their out! No longer can the unions just sit back and say oh well we tried! Well, that's not good enough starting today! I'm not tired yet I want more!

guppie
06-30-2018, 03:03 AM
Maybe some people don't think the union's are winning for them! This ruling will hold the Unions feet to the fire to perform or their out! No longer can the unions just sit back and say oh well we tried! Well, that's not good enough starting today! I'm not tired yet I want more!

Settle down Beavis. This ruling only affects public unions. Still a closed shop at the Major Airlines. For now. Pay your dues or get another job/career. No freeloaders.

fireman0174
06-30-2018, 03:58 AM
Settle down Beavis. This ruling only affects public unions. Still a closed shop at the Major Airlines. For now. Pay your dues or get another job/career. No freeloaders.

Today that's true. But do you think it will always be that way? That those who pushed for this ruling will stop there?

I like BIG Bus
06-30-2018, 03:59 AM
...Withdrawn...

UASCOMPILOT
06-30-2018, 04:01 AM
Chill out Butthead did I say anything about our Association...news flash were not a union!

Furthermore, I've been a real UNION member for 40 years and in this association for over 20 so don't preach to me! How many days do you got walking the line and maintaining the RAT! Were you there walking with Spirit?

I was!

All I'm saying is some people are disenfranchised with the representation their receiving. Or like me someone who will not contribute to socialist Democrats no matter the outcome for my profession!

cadetdrivr
06-30-2018, 04:04 AM
Maybe some people don't think the union's are winning for them! This ruling will hold the Unions feet to the fire to perform or their out! No longer can the unions just sit back and say oh well we tried! Well, that's not good enough starting today! I'm not tired yet I want more!

But earlier....

Can someone please explains how our 2.5 hour to show on reserve works for LGA and EWR! I live in NJ and can make EWR in an 1:40 but realistically its 3 hours for LGA. So how do you sit reserve for EWR/LGA at the sometime it seems impossible! You would have to be sitting on the GWB to make it with the time allotted! Somebody must have figured this out!

Yeah, the union did.

Funny how folks are climbing all over each other to get the good major airline jobs but can’t quite put their finger on WHY they are better than other jobs in aviation flying the same equipment.

Octaflugaron
06-30-2018, 04:10 AM
Chill out Butthead did I say anything about our Association...news flash were not a union!

Furthermore, I've been a real UNION member for 40 years and in this association for over 20 so don't preach to me! How many days do you got walking the line and maintaining the RAT! Were you there walking with Spirit?

I was!

All I'm saying is some people are disenfranchised with the representation their receiving. Or like me someone who will not contribute to socialist Democrats no matter the outcome for my profession!

OUTSTANDING reply, brother. Want your union to REALLY work for you? Make membership optional! There is hope....keep the faith. Change gonna come.

Octa

guppie
06-30-2018, 04:20 AM
OUTSTANDING reply, brother. Want your union to REALLY work for you? Make membership optional! There is hope....keep the faith. Change gonna come.

Octa

Membership is always optional. You don't have to join the union. You just have to pay your fair share (association fee) of it's cost. After all, Duty of Fair Representation is the law. It states that if your job is covered by a CBA, you will receive the same hard fought pay and bennies as members...even as a nonmember. 'Right to Work' just allows you to be a nonmember AND a freeloader. 'Bankrupt the Unions' is what the legislation should be called. Once the union is gone, we can all fly heavies for Skywest, dba UA,DL, and AA. It'll be swell.

GogglesPisano
06-30-2018, 04:36 AM
Membership is always optional. You don't have to join the union. You just have to pay your fair share (association fee) of it's cost. After all, Duty of Fair Representation is the law. It states that if your job is covered by a CBA, you will receive the same hard fought pay and bennies as members...even as a nonmember. 'Right to Work' just allows you to be a nonmember AND a freeloader. 'Bankrupt the Unions' is what the legislation should be called. Once the union is gone, we can all fly heavies for Skywest, dba UA,DL, and AA. It'll be swell.

No kidding. I’m always amazed that so many airline pilots don’t understand this.

I’m curious how allowing freeloaders to leach, starving unions of dues and allowing guys to negotiate (guaranteed) lower compensation packages individually is going to foster “competition” between unions.

Grumble
06-30-2018, 05:28 AM
No kidding. I’m always amazed that so many airline pilots don’t understand this.

I’m curious how allowing freeloaders to leach, starving unions of dues and allowing guys to negotiate (guaranteed) lower compensation packages individually is going to foster “competition” between unions.

That’s not what it’s about... if they can get us fighting each other and depressing our own wages (which is why they hire SCABS) then we’re doing mgmts job for them.

UASCOMPILOT
06-30-2018, 10:02 AM
But earlier....



Yeah, the union did.

Funny how folks are climbing all over each other to get the good major airline jobs but can’t quite put their finger on WHY they are better than other jobs in aviation flying the same equipment.

Exactly! I pay almost 2% to ALPA so why not ask and I appreciate the response I got. But then again I didn't say anything about ALPA! Were talking about union representation as a whole! Face it unions are in a decline most people figured it out that the 1 to 2% they pay in each check is becoming payment to line politicans pockets then a fee for representation!

Any way I'm done! Most you guys never been in a real union and have no idea what its actually like walk away from an job or standing in front of a non union shop for days blocking traffic and making sure no union/non union drivers enter their property! Plus the days driving around with our union rep cold calling jobs and trying to unionize crews in our local area! Unions aren't just about pizza parts guys!

Slaphappy
06-30-2018, 11:35 AM
Big win for the Trump Administration. And guess how many of those 150 co-sponsors of National Right to Work legislation are Democrats? Yep. None. Back the PAC!


Supreme Court Ruling on Janus vs. AFSCME

Yesterday's Supreme Court ruling on Janus vs. AFSCME overruled a four-decade-old precedent and is a major loss for the public-sector workers who join together and collectively bargain for their pay, work rules, and benefits.

This decision allows some employees the ability to ride the coattails of union workers. In the short term, these "free riders" will gain an advantage without contributing the dues money, time, or effort needed to improve their lives. In the long term, the reduced resources will affect everyone. Although this is a setback to organized labor, the overwhelming majority of workers understand that remaining unified is the best way to fight back against efforts to silence our collective voice.

The Janus decision applies to public-sector unions and does not change the laws affecting ALPA membership. However, the so-called "right to work" legislation being pushed in Congress by a minority group of Republicans seeks to achieve similar goals for non-public unions. There are currently 122 co-sponsors in the House, which is below the 218 required for passage, and 28 co-sponsors in the Senate.

The UAL MEC Legislative Affairs Committee is working closely with ALPA National's Government Affairs team to ensure our representatives in Congress know that ALPA pilots are united in our opposition to this legislation. You can help our efforts by joining ALPA-PAC and United Pilot PAC (UP-PAC) via these links:

Good I support this.
Also now the democrats lose a chunk of their funding.

Slaphappy
06-30-2018, 11:36 AM
Listened to an interview with Janus. Interviewer pressed him as to why he brought suit and he kept saying that by being forced to pay dues he was forced into giving up his Constitutional freedom of association, forced into giving up his Constitutional freedom of speech. Wished the interviewer had just asked, "Who forced you to work there? Why not just leave?"

You shouldn't be forced to pay to a union. Also public sector unions shouldn't even be allowed.

guppie
06-30-2018, 01:11 PM
You shouldn't be forced to pay to a union. Also public sector unions shouldn't even be allowed.

Pay your dues or get terminated. It’s that simple. See the contract. 😎

guppie
06-30-2018, 01:19 PM
Face it unions are in a decline most people figured it out that the 1 to 2% they pay in each check is becoming payment to line politicans pockets then a fee for representation!


Not in the airline biznez!! We signed up Jetblue, Frontier, and Virgin just in the last 5 years!! 😎

Slaphappy
06-30-2018, 01:42 PM
Pay your dues or get terminated. It’s that simple. See the contract. 😎

For now, we'll see the next time this goes to the court.

FliesInSoup
06-30-2018, 01:45 PM
Looks as though some pilots are wanting to recoup 2% of their wages now in favor of giving up 50% of their wages later; not to mention their QOL...

oldmako
06-30-2018, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE=FliesInSoup;2625231]Looks as though some pilots are wanting to recoup 2% of their wages now in favor of giving up 50% of their wages later; not to mention their QOL...[/QUOTE

Worth repeating. Frank Lorenzo would love some of these guys.

tzskipper
06-30-2018, 05:17 PM
Listened to an interview with Janus. Interviewer pressed him as to why he brought suit and he kept saying that by being forced to pay dues he was forced into giving up his Constitutional freedom of association, forced into giving up his Constitutional freedom of speech. Wished the interviewer had just asked, "Who forced you to work there? Why not just leave?"

In a Cavuto interview today, a comment was made referencing the choice to take the job in the first place. Kind of morphed (as I recall) into Janus saying he was concerned about the Union's impact on the state budget (you know, livable wages, medical and retirement).

S

Dave Fitzgerald
07-01-2018, 08:56 AM
Well.....union membership is optional. But the contract is a benefit. That's what agency shop is all about.

How about if you opt not to be a union member, you are no longer covered by the contract? Meaning you have to do whatever the crew desk tells you to do as long as it doesn't violate FAR's? And, since pay is directly related to union bargaining, some don't want to pay the 2% up front, how about we just take that out of the equation.

You are free to not be a member, not be covered by the contract, then paid 50% less than the union members? Fair? I think so.

GogglesPisano
07-01-2018, 10:07 AM
Well.....union membership is optional. But the contract is a benefit. That's what agency shop is all about.

How about if you opt not to be a union member, you are no longer covered by the contract? Meaning you have to do whatever the crew desk tells you to do as long as it doesn't violate FAR's? And, since pay is directly related to union bargaining, some don't want to pay the 2% up front, how about we just take that out of the equation.

You are free to not be a member, not be covered by the contract, then paid 50% less than the union members? Fair? I think so.

The problem is, guess who the airline will hire exclusively going forward: Union or nonunion?

In 15 years after the last union pilot retires, the Republican/Chamber of Commerce wet dream will have come true. An airline of non-union rugged-individualists like Slaphappy begging for scraps — all in the name of “freedom.”

BKbigfish
07-01-2018, 11:22 AM
The problem is, guess who the airline will hire exclusively going forward: Union or nonunion?

In 15 years after the last union pilot retires, the Republican/Chamber of Commerce wet dream will have come true. An airline of non-union rugged-individualists like Slaphappy begging for scraps — all in the name of “freedom.”

This^^^

Also I would expect management to pay the non-union members the same or maybe even a bit more initially to drive the wedge in even further and fuel the theory that the union is unecessry and potentially holding people back from reaping the benefits of “free market forces.” Then once the union is off property they’ll pull the rug out. Work rules and generous benefits packages will be out the window and pay will fluctuate wildly depending on “market forces” and how much company kool aide you are willing to injest. Another casualty of this little experiment in libertarianism would most likely be safety as the most lucrative contracts and career advancement would go to the guys that “get the job done.” Oh you’re too tired to agree to an FDP extension? You’re not captain material.

Octaflugaron
07-08-2018, 04:41 PM
Membership is always optional. You don't have to join the union. You just have to pay your fair share (association fee) of it's cost. After all, Duty of Fair Representation is the law. It states that if your job is covered by a CBA, you will receive the same hard fought pay and bennies as members...even as a nonmember. 'Right to Work' just allows you to be a nonmember AND a freeloader. 'Bankrupt the Unions' is what the legislation should be called. Once the union is gone, we can all fly heavies for Skywest, dba UA,DL, and AA. It'll be swell.


Right to Work does not make you a freeloader. It gives the worker the right NOT to pay homage to a union with which he or she disagrees. Compulsory union membership or compulsory dues is unconstitutional. That is what I was referring to when I said, "make union membership optional." This has been well established. Workers aren't freeloaders. The money they pay to unions is not their leverage. The work they do on the shop floor (cockpits for us airline types) is their leverage. Without this work, union bosses would have zilch. BTW, what percentage of your dues goes to the national union? Want a union that REALLY works for pilots? Elect a union that ONLY represents your work group. Make it so that 100% of your dues goes to your pilots and your contract negotiations, etc.

Octaflugaron
07-08-2018, 04:44 PM
This^^^

Also I would expect management to pay the non-union members the same or maybe even a bit more initially to drive the wedge in even further and fuel the theory that the union is unecessry and potentially holding people back from reaping the benefits of “free market forces.” Then once the union is off property they’ll pull the rug out. Work rules and generous benefits packages will be out the window and pay will fluctuate wildly depending on “market forces” and how much company kool aide you are willing to injest. Another casualty of this little experiment in libertarianism would most likely be safety as the most lucrative contracts and career advancement would go to the guys that “get the job done.” Oh you’re too tired to agree to an FDP extension? You’re not captain material.

Absurd....

Whiskey4
07-08-2018, 05:12 PM
The problem is, guess who the airline will hire exclusively going forward: Union or nonunion?

In 15 years after the last union pilot retires, the Republican/Chamber of Commerce wet dream will have come true. An airline of non-union rugged-individualists like Slaphappy begging for scraps — all in the name of “freedom.”

No need to be for scraps...we’ll just unionize!!! ;D

GogglesPisano
07-08-2018, 05:31 PM
Right to Work does not make you a freeloader. It gives the worker the right NOT to pay homage to a union with which he or she disagrees. Compulsory union membership or compulsory dues is unconstitutional. That is what I was referring to when I said, "make union membership optional." This has been well established. Workers aren't freeloaders. The money they pay to unions is not their leverage. The work they do on the shop floor (cockpits for us airline types) is their leverage. Without this work, union bosses would have zilch. BTW, what percentage of your dues goes to the national union? Want a union that REALLY works for pilots? Elect a union that ONLY represents your work group. Make it so that 100% of your dues goes to your pilots and your contract negotiations, etc.

Riddle me this: why can’t the pilots that are so against the idea of collective bargaining simply find employment at a non-union carrier? Or in corporate aviation? Then everyone is happy, no?

Octaflugaron
07-08-2018, 08:39 PM
Riddle me this: why can’t the pilots that are so against the idea of collective bargaining simply find employment at a non-union carrier? Or in corporate aviation? Then everyone is happy, no?

No. Pilots (any workers) should be able to work wherever they wish. This is America. And they should be able to do so without the requirement to pay money to a union. Some industries are set up where workers can't even apply without first paying money to a union or joining before they are employed with a company. That is clearly wrong and it is changing fast.

Independent, nonunion professional educator groups have been established in many states. These groups are providing teachers and student teachers with benefits comparable to those of the NEA and AFT, at lower dues. Many do not support any political agenda or ideas which do not directly affect education. They may also provide liability insurance protection for members, which is comparable to that offered by the NEA and AFT. The same arrangement could very easily work in the airline pilot profession.

BKbigfish
07-09-2018, 12:07 AM
Absurd....

Why is this absurd? You know this is exactly how this scenario would play out. I’d love to hear your alternative fantasyland version. Please expand on “Absurd....” It’s a little vague.

BKbigfish
07-09-2018, 12:09 AM
Right to Work does not make you a freeloader. It gives the worker the right NOT to pay homage to a union with which he or she disagrees. Compulsory union membership or compulsory dues is unconstitutional. That is what I was referring to when I said, "make union membership optional." This has been well established. Workers aren't freeloaders. The money they pay to unions is not their leverage. The work they do on the shop floor (cockpits for us airline types) is their leverage. Without this work, union bosses would have zilch. BTW, what percentage of your dues goes to the national union? Want a union that REALLY works for pilots? Elect a union that ONLY represents your work group. Make it so that 100% of your dues goes to your pilots and your contract negotiations, etc.

If you benefit from a union negotiated contract and you do not pay dues to that union you are a freeloader. Full stop.

BKbigfish
07-09-2018, 12:12 AM
No. Pilots (any workers) should be able to work wherever they wish. This is America. And they should be able to do so without the requirement to pay money to a union. Some industries are set up where workers can't even apply without first paying money to a union or joining before they are employed with a company. That is clearly wrong and it is changing fast.

Independent, nonunion professional educator groups have been established in many states. These groups are providing teachers and student teachers with benefits comparable to those of the NEA and AFT, at lower dues. Many do not support any political agenda or ideas which do not directly affect education. They may also provide liability insurance protection for members, which is comparable to that offered by the NEA and AFT. The same arrangement could very easily work in the airline pilot profession.

You are correct on your first point here. Pilots should be allowed to “work wherever they wish.” Do you not find it interesting that the vast majority of professional pilots “wish” to work at unionized airlines? Why do you think that might be?

GogglesPisano
07-09-2018, 07:19 AM
No. Pilots (any workers) should be able to work wherever they wish. This is America.

How is this not the case now?


they should be able to do so without the requirement to pay money to a union.

Ok. There are plenty of non-union pilot jobs out there. But if they work at a union airline and under the protections of a CBA, it would only be fair that they pay their fair share. "Right to Work" with the requirement that a union still provides those services without collecting dues from non-members is nothing more than government-mandated theft of services. The true intent is to bleed the union dry, and you and I both know that.

So how would this scenario of yours work exactly?

Option 1: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past. More and more pilots freeload and eventually the union goes bankrupt.

Option 2: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past, non-members are free to negotiate their own pay/benefits package. Do you honestly think people will do better bargaining individually? No one on your side of the argument has yet to explain why major airline pay exceeds non-union airline pay, or (non-union) corporate pay, or why Netjets pilots make more than their corporate brethren flying the same type of aircraft. Take a look at expats flying overseas for non-union outfits like the ME3 and ask them how well they sleep at night without union protection.

Why do you think no pilot group has every voted to decertify a union and switch to a "more direct relationship" with management? Have you ever talked to a jetBlue pilot? Why do you think they voted in ALPA?

Octaflugaron
07-09-2018, 07:07 PM
How is this not the case now?




Ok. There are plenty of non-union pilot jobs out there. But if they work at a union airline and under the protections of a CBA, it would only be fair that they pay their fair share. "Right to Work" with the requirement that a union still provides those services without collecting dues from non-members is nothing more than government-mandated theft of services. The true intent is to bleed the union dry, and you and I both know that.

So how would this scenario of yours work exactly?

Option 1: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past. More and more pilots freeload and eventually the union goes bankrupt.

Option 2: Closed shop becomes a thing of the past, non-members are free to negotiate their own pay/benefits package. Do you honestly think people will do better bargaining individually? No one on your side of the argument has yet to explain why major airline pay exceeds non-union airline pay, or (non-union) corporate pay, or why Netjets pilots make more than their corporate brethren flying the same type of aircraft. Take a look at expats flying overseas for non-union outfits like the ME3 and ask them how well they sleep at night without union protection.

Why do you think no pilot group has every voted to decertify a union and switch to a "more direct relationship" with management? Have you ever talked to a jetBlue pilot? Why do you think they voted in ALPA?

SkyWest is by far the best example. They are a non-union pilot group. They do better than almost every ALPA pilot group in the regional category. The only ones doing better from what I see are Endeavor (ALPA) and Republic which is IBT. Many ALPA pilots at regional carriers are making upwards of 20% less than SkyWest pilots.

It can be done and without all the contention, politics, union corruption and Loss of 2% of your pay to a union that spends the money of its members on things pilots don't always support.

GogglesPisano
07-10-2018, 06:03 AM
SkyWest is by far the best example. They are a non-union pilot group. They do better than almost every ALPA pilot group in the regional category. The only ones doing better from what I see are Endeavor (ALPA) and Republic which is IBT. Many ALPA pilots at regional carriers are making upwards of 20% less than SkyWest pilots.

It can be done and without all the contention, politics, union corruption and Loss of 2% of your pay to a union that spends the money of its members on things pilots don't always support.

And why do you think Skywest is such a great place to work? Do you really think they operate in a vacuum?

You haven't answered any of my questions regarding legacy pay, or Netjets pay vs corporate? Nor have you provided a single example of a pilot group voting to decertify a union and replace it with nothing.

Waiting ....

Slaphappy
07-10-2018, 09:20 AM
And why do you think Skywest is such a great place to work? Do you really think they operate in a vacuum?

You haven't answered any of my questions regarding legacy pay, or Netjets pay vs corporate? Nor have you provided a single example of a pilot group voting to decertify a union and replace it with nothing.

Waiting ....

Market forces. The regionals have all seen substantial bonuses and raises all of which had to do with staffing and market forces. The unions had nothing to do with any of that.

GogglesPisano
07-10-2018, 09:46 AM
Market forces. The regionals have all seen substantial bonuses and raises all of which had to do with staffing and market forces. The unions had nothing to do with any of that.

Still haven’t answered the Netjets vs corporate pilot pay disparity. Or legacy vs corporate pay. Or why no pilot group has ever voted out a union without replacing it with another.

4V14T0R
07-10-2018, 12:43 PM
Still haven’t answered the Netjets vs corporate pilot pay disparity. Or legacy vs corporate pay. Or why no pilot group has ever voted out a union without replacing it with another.



Besides FlexJet. [emoji57]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hetman
07-10-2018, 01:36 PM
I am a non-member. Every month I calculate my association fee and happily send the check. My EXCO and, when applicable, my Negotiating Committee speak for me and I have no issue with paying my fair share to ensure they continue to do so. You can and should carry your own water.

The fee is about 7% less than full membership dues. That 7% is money that does not go to support the International, which absolutely DOES NOT speak for me.

You should not, either voluntarily or through coercion, support positions with which you disagree. Yes, it is a First Amendment thing.

Slaphappy
07-11-2018, 09:46 AM
Still haven’t answered the Netjets vs corporate pilot pay disparity. Or legacy vs corporate pay. Or why no pilot group has ever voted out a union without replacing it with another.

Because it's irrelevant.

GogglesPisano
07-11-2018, 11:00 AM
Because it's irrelevant.

How is the fact that union pilots make more than non-union pilots for a given set of circumstances irrelevant — unless you’re not willing to come to grips with reality due to ideology.

Slaphappy
07-11-2018, 12:13 PM
How is the fact that union pilots make more than non-union pilots for a given set of circumstances irrelevant — unless you’re not willing to come to grips with reality due to ideology.

Not in all cases, you picked one example. I picked another.

GogglesPisano
07-11-2018, 06:54 PM
Not in all cases, you picked one example. I picked another.

I laid out several examples. You laid out the fact that regional pilot pay has increased due to market forces -- of course it has. Collective bargaining can only go so far.

But examined over a wide array, it's obvious that pilots that bargain collectively will make more than their peers in similar aircraft/business models. Well, obvious to most.

kevbo
07-11-2018, 07:14 PM
Most people born on third base grow up thinking they actually hit a triple.

tomgoodman
07-11-2018, 08:09 PM
Most people born on third base grow up thinking they actually hit a triple.

And many people who strike out think they deserve third base anyway. :p

MaxQ
07-12-2018, 02:13 AM
I laid out several examples. You laid out the fact that regional pilot pay has increased due to market forces -- of course it has. Collective bargaining can only go so far.

But examined over a wide array, it's obvious that pilots that bargain collectively will make more than their peers in similar aircraft/business models. Well, obvious to most.
Googles.....once ones world view morphs into an ideology they are impervious to facts and reason....trying to modify someones alternate reality once they go down that rabbit hole is basically impossible.
For those who have more nuance, thanks for the defense of trade unions.

GogglesPisano
07-12-2018, 06:35 AM
Googles.....once ones world view morphs into an ideology they are impervious to facts and reason....trying to modify someones alternate reality once they go down that rabbit hole is basically impossible.
For those who have more nuance, thanks for the defense of trade unions.

You are absolutely correct. Thanks for saving me from wasting more time here.

CBreezy
07-16-2018, 06:16 AM
I am a non-member. Every month I calculate my association fee and happily send the check. My EXCO and, when applicable, my Negotiating Committee speak for me and I have no issue with paying my fair share to ensure they continue to do so. You can and should carry your own water.

The fee is about 7% less than full membership dues. That 7% is money that does not go to support the International, which absolutely DOES NOT speak for me.

You should not, either voluntarily or through coercion, support positions with which you disagree. Yes, it is a First Amendment thing.

The 1st Amendment doesn't apply non-government enterprises. So, no, you don't get freedom of speech at work.

CBreezy
07-16-2018, 06:18 AM
SkyWest is by far the best example. They are a non-union pilot group. They do better than almost every ALPA pilot group in the regional category. The only ones doing better from what I see are Endeavor (ALPA) and Republic which is IBT. Many ALPA pilots at regional carriers are making upwards of 20% less than SkyWest pilots.

It can be done and without all the contention, politics, union corruption and Loss of 2% of your pay to a union that spends the money of its members on things pilots don't always support.

Skywest has an above average contract because they have to. If they didn't, their pilots would vote in a union.

Hetman
07-16-2018, 12:26 PM
The 1st Amendment doesn't apply non-government enterprises. So, no, you don't get freedom of speech at work.

Nor can you, under the First Amendment, be coerced, regardless of by whom, to support political causes with which you disagree.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/487/735/

Hetman
07-16-2018, 06:05 PM
So you do, in fact, get freedom of speech at work.

The trick is in understanding "freedom of speech." Presents more of a challenge to some than to others, apparently.

Mrhr5b
07-17-2018, 06:47 AM
Skywest has an above average contract because they have to. If they didn't, their pilots would vote in a union.

Sky west’s contract isn’t above average the last time I checked, and certainly not industry leading. Republic and endeavor blow them out of the water.



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