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View Full Version : Junior Captain Seniority


FlyingHercs
07-01-2018, 07:36 PM
Would anyone be willing to share the junior captain seniority number for each base? Couldn't find anything in my search, other than that ATL is super senior. TIA.


Proximity
07-02-2018, 12:17 AM
Would anyone be willing to share the junior captain seniority number for each base? Couldn't find anything in my search, other than that ATL is super senior. TIA.

Honestly, if you are asking this question, that means you aren't on property, which means that upgrade time right now doesn't mean much for you. By the time you'd be in a position to upgrade, everything will have changed.

ATL, PHX, MCO come to mind as fairly senior. I would expect PHX to become less senior over time. MCO and ATL look like they will remain senior. OAK is junior.

FlyingHercs
07-02-2018, 02:56 AM
Honestly, if you are asking this question, that means you aren't on property, which means that upgrade time right now doesn't mean much for you. By the time you'd be in a position to upgrade, everything will have changed.

ATL, PHX, MCO come to mind as fairly senior. I would expect PHX to become less senior over time. MCO and ATL look like they will remain senior. OAK is junior.

Thanks for the general outline. While you are correct, I'm not on property, the reason I ask is for knowledge when deciding which companies to target. (Go ahead with the "get a job offer first line"...)

Just as domicile location, work rules, scope, pay rates, company financials, company culture, etc etc play into the decision of where to target employment so does upgrade potential. What you'll notice is I didn't ask "how long to upgrade to CA at x?". That indeed will change. By having the seniority number of the junior CA (or FO) at each base, coupled with mandatory retirements and projected growth, I'd argue you can get a fairly decent projection of when a domicile might become available.

So yes, I know everything can change; however, if I'm truly trying to build the full picture PRIOR to being on property this information is useful.


Tbpilot06
07-02-2018, 05:16 AM
Thanks for the general outline. While you are correct, I'm not on property, the reason I ask is for knowledge when deciding which companies to target. (Go ahead with the "get a job offer first line"...)

Just as domicile location, work rules, scope, pay rates, company financials, company culture, etc etc play into the decision of where to target employment so does upgrade potential. What you'll notice is I didn't ask "how long to upgrade to CA at x?". That indeed will change. By having the seniority number of the junior CA (or FO) at each base, coupled with mandatory retirements and projected growth, I'd argue you can get a fairly decent projection of when a domicile might become available.

So yes, I know everything can change; however, if I'm truly trying to build the full picture PRIOR to being on property this information is useful.

I always wondered why you shouldnít ever ask questions unless you have a job offer. It would seem Airline pilots believe that any job is the best job. It makes sense to me to ask questions and try to work at the place that might work best for a certain situation people are in. I donít have any of the answers either because Iím ďnot on propertyĒ.

Smooth at FL450
07-02-2018, 05:24 AM
Just as domicile location, work rules, scope, pay rates, company financials, company culture, etc etc play into the decision of where to target employment so does upgrade potential. What you'll notice is I didn't ask "how long to upgrade to CA at x?". That indeed will change. By having the seniority number of the junior CA (or FO) at each base, coupled with mandatory retirements and projected growth, I'd argue you can get a fairly decent projection of when a domicile might become available.

So yes, I know everything can change; however, if I'm truly trying to build the full picture PRIOR to being on property this information is useful.


Be sure to ask this question among all the others: which company's upgrade projection would be most greatly impacted by a change in the mandatory retirement age? The answer is not SWA...

ZapBrannigan
07-02-2018, 06:40 AM
Raising the retirement age to 67 or 70 wouldnít do anything to stem the shortage. It would just kick the can down the road.

They squandered the opportunity to fix the problem when they went to 65, and screw thousands of post 9/11 furloughees in the process.

Nothing is more divisive to a pilot group than greed.


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Grumpyaviator
07-02-2018, 06:43 AM
Would anyone be willing to share the junior captain seniority number for each base? Couldn't find anything in my search, other than that ATL is super senior. TIA.

Iím not sure about upgrade by base but SWA upgrades are approximately 10 years and not coming down soon barring something sensational. That should be enough to influence a choice if given one.

Grumpyaviator
07-02-2018, 06:51 AM
Raising the retirement age to 67 or 70 wouldnít do anything to stem the shortage. It would just kick the can down the road.

They squandered the opportunity to fix the problem when they went to 65, and screw thousands of post 9/11 furloughees in the process.

Nothing is more divisive to a pilot group than greed.


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The original age 65 was a self-redemptive way for the Airlines to let pilots rebuild some retirement after gutting them. Now any talk of increasing the retirement age is just the greed of senior pilots at the cost of career progression for the junior ones.

The only way to fix the shortage is to build a pipeline of new pilots, not reshuffling the current ones.

WHACKMASTER
07-02-2018, 06:53 AM
I recently flew with a guy that was within a year of retiring. Super nice guy but definite cognitive erosion. 70? YHGTBSM

ZapBrannigan
07-02-2018, 06:58 AM
If not, thereís this...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180702/0fdbaa5cd5db21e0ac8c8ae72e297798.jpg


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ZapBrannigan
07-02-2018, 07:19 AM
The original age 65 was a self-redemptive way for the Airlines to let pilots rebuild some retirement after gutting them. Now any talk of increasing the retirement age is just the greed of senior pilots at the cost of career progression for the junior ones.



The only way to fix the shortage is to build a pipeline of new pilots, not reshuffling the current ones.


Agreed.

Iím just still bitter about the extra 5 years on the street before I had to decide whether or not to go back to the bankrupt company that furloughed me. [emoji6]


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Proximity
07-02-2018, 07:26 AM
What you'll notice is I didn't ask "how long to upgrade to CA at x?". That indeed will change. By having the seniority number of the junior CA (or FO) at each base, coupled with mandatory retirements and projected growth, I'd argue you can get a fairly decent projection of when a domicile might become available.

I understand your point, however, ten years in a long time in the airline business and so much can change. Just at Southwest, there was a time not so long ago that Dallas was senior. It was "known" that if you wanted to be based in Dallas you'd wait a long time. Right now Dallas is really no more senior then any other base. After the AT purchase ATL FO was really really senior. New hires in the 2014-2017 range were told that the wait for ATL would be 5-6-7 years. Today it takes less than a year to hold ATL FO. It went from years to one year in couple bids.

The legacies are going to retire so many that the picture will shift even more for them. So I think you have to look at things in general.

For example, want to be based in Denver? Southwest is probably your best bet. Want to upgrade fast? That's going to happen faster elsewhere. Want to have more days off? Southwest. Want to sit reserve and not work...not Southwest.

DHC8DRV
07-02-2018, 10:07 AM
Would anyone be willing to share the junior captain seniority number for each base? Couldn't find anything in my search, other than that ATL is super senior. TIA.

Not sure why pilots are so unwilling to help others out. I understand your desire to gather all info possible and make the best decision for you and your family. Here are the numbers for the most junior CA as of July.

ATL 5/06
BWI 8/07
DAL 4/08
DEN 9/07
HOU 3/08
LAS 5/08
MCO 5/06
MDW 9/07
OAK 7/08
PHX 2/08

Tbpilot06
07-02-2018, 10:11 AM
Not sure why pilots are so unwilling to help others out. I understand your desire to gather all info possible and make the best decision for you and your family. Here are the numbers for the most junior CA as of July.

ATL 5/06
BWI 8/07
DAL 4/08
DEN 9/07
HOU 3/08
LAS 5/08
MCO 5/06
MDW 9/07
OAK 7/08
PHX 2/08

Very cool. Count yourself among the few that might actually help someone else out !!

FlyingHercs
07-02-2018, 10:38 AM
Not sure why pilots are so unwilling to help others out. I understand your desire to gather all info possible and make the best decision for you and your family. Here are the numbers for the most junior CA as of July.



ATL 5/06

BWI 8/07

DAL 4/08

DEN 9/07

HOU 3/08

LAS 5/08

MCO 5/06

MDW 9/07

OAK 7/08

PHX 2/08



Thanks DHC8DRV. Any idea of the seniority percent of any one of those? Ie 65% for MDW

Much appreciated


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FlyingHercs
07-02-2018, 10:49 AM
For example, want to be based in Denver? Southwest is probably your best bet. Want to upgrade fast? That's going to happen faster elsewhere. Want to have more days off? Southwest. Want to sit reserve and not work...not Southwest.


This was my point in asking exactly. What makes you say SWA is best for Denver? Why not UAL where they have their training hub and are expanding? How is SWA more stable there?

Same goes for AA and living in Dallas or Chicago.

Itís questions like these Iím trying to answer. Knowing relative seniority for both FO and CA is just one piece of the puzzle.

By having the information for all companies and understanding the situation at each base a better picture can be gained.

Iím of the mindset that picking domicile is the way to go. When 2 or more airlines are in the same place, you have to dig deeper to make the call. That was the only intent of my OP.

Iím appreciative of your responses and welcome a PM if you are willing to answer more direct pointed questions. Kinda figured for the masses a general outline would suffice and cover more people than just myself



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Laramie
07-02-2018, 10:53 AM
Maybe what some folks don't get is that a BUNCH of us spent half our ****ing lives trying to get a job at ANY airline---let alone our dream job.


So, while information/day dreaming/spitballing, whatever, is interesting......dream up better questions.

Convair580
07-02-2018, 12:16 PM
This conversation is applicable only if you actually receive job offers from AA. UAL. and DAL. If you only get an offer from SW, what are you going to do?Would you turn down the SW job and hope your first choice offer you a job? Personally I would grab the first job offered and if during the first few years you get an offer from your 1st choice, you can make the jump without losing much.

PotatoChip
07-02-2018, 12:16 PM
Maybe what some folks don't get is that a BUNCH of us spent half our ****ing lives trying to get a job at ANY airline---let alone our dream job.


So, while information/day dreaming/spitballing, whatever, is interesting......dream up better questions.

Exactly.
Apps out everywhere for YEARS.

ZapBrannigan
07-02-2018, 12:58 PM
Maybe what some folks don't get is that a BUNCH of us spent half our ****ing lives trying to get a job at ANY airline---let alone our dream job.


So, while information/day dreaming/spitballing, whatever, is interesting......dream up better questions.



I think that this generation of pilots is in the enviable position of actually getting to choose from several major airline offers. Most never had to flight instruct, fly cancelled checks, or pay to play. Theyíve never been furloughed and they werenít flying on 9/11. Iím jealous of their good fortune!

So when they ask questions like this to guys from our generation itís easy to look at them like theyíre crazy... but the reality is it is us old guys who are out of touch. Itís a whole new world. [emoji20]

Feel free to reach out to me with some of those pointed questions. Iíve worked for a number of different major airlines over the years and can give you an honest assessment of the good the bad and the ugly. (Itís mostly good!)


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FlyingHercs
07-02-2018, 01:24 PM
This conversation is applicable only if you actually receive job offers from AA. UAL. and DAL. If you only get an offer from SW, what are you going to do?Would you turn down the SW job and hope your first choice offer you a job? Personally I would grab the first job offered and if during the first few years you get an offer from your 1st choice, you can make the jump without losing much.



Yes of course you take the first job offered. How do you know that another job is your 1st choice if you donít have the information?

Youíd think by the reaction of some that by asking questions youíre breaking all the rules. ďHow dare you ask these questions?!?! I never had a choice when I applied. Darn kids.Ē

While some of the older generation may not like it, yes this is a new pilot friendly market. To get jealous and bitter over it because your experience wasnít the same is quite petty.

I guess I should have known better to ask a serious question. Letís all go back to *****ing about farting in the cockpit, taking off shoes, and how much we hate soccer. So much more productive




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RckyMtHigh
07-02-2018, 01:44 PM
Sorry about the response you got. Itís a legitimate question by someone doing their due diligence.

LAX base opening here in a couple months is going to throw everything out of whack. After that settles down, I would expect LA to be junior with 7-8 year captains, OAK has traditionally been the most junior but may downsize with the LA base(?). Same for PHX and LAS, hard to tell how that will turn out. BWI junior on the east coast just slightly behind OAK as systemwide junior base. Kind of a crapshoot now, but someone hired today in the neighborhood of 7-8 year upgrade, going up over 10 for ATL and MCO. Itís just a guess though...

RJSAviator76
07-02-2018, 01:52 PM
What's the big deal about upgrade? At this level, there are many, many, many people bypassing upgrade because they're making well over 200k as FO's and have control over their schedules vs. taking a junior captain slot with zero control over your schedule.

If you're dying for that 4th stripe for other reasons i.e. you gotta be the one running the show, then hit up American and run to E-190. You'll upgrade within your first year.

Tbpilot06
07-02-2018, 01:52 PM
Yes of course you take the first job offered. How do you know that another job is your 1st choice if you donít have the information?

Youíd think by the reaction of some that by asking questions youíre breaking all the rules. ďHow dare you ask these questions?!?! I never had a choice when I applied. Darn kids.Ē

While some of the older generation may not like it, yes this is a new pilot friendly market. To get jealous and bitter over it because your experience wasnít the same is quite petty.

I guess I should have known better to ask a serious question. Letís all go back to *****ing about farting in the cockpit, taking off shoes, and how much we hate soccer. So much more productive




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Well said. And Iím not in the kid generation or close to retiring but I was flying on 9/11 since that seems to be the dividing line.

Albief15
07-02-2018, 03:53 PM
What's the big deal about upgrade? At this level, there are many, many, many people bypassing upgrade because they're making well over 200k as FO's and have control over their schedules vs. taking a junior captain slot with zero control over your schedule.

If you're dying for that 4th stripe for other reasons i.e. you gotta be the one running the show, then hit up American and run to E-190. You'll upgrade within your first year.

Quality of life is important, but money creates it own quality at times...

Kids in college, weddings, fixing a debt problem from a bad real estate investment, etc...plenty of pilots will sacrifice the Q of L for their own reasons. Packing away the cash for a retirement is another goal that often drives people to work more or upgrade. You can also work 2/3 as much, give away a bunch of your trips, and trips, and make as much as that hard working FO if time off is your priority.

Point is that for many its not about ego, its about options and dollars.

Everyone is talking only about upside--and its been an awesome ride since 2011 and fun to watch. With the taper in hiring, however, I think its prudent to look at the other side of the opportunity/risk equation

Personally, with the cyclic nature of this business and where we are in economic cycles and hiring waves, I might be more concerned about "what would life look like if hiring stopped in 6 months?" Are there enough retirements pending to absorb a 5 or 10 % reduction in capacity if the economy turned south? What would life be like at the bottom 10% if I had to park there a couple years? Do I have a side gig (ANG/Reserves) that can absorb a downturn, or is this all I have? IMHO freight isn't immune to this at all, but rather with trade and tariffs an issue is perhaps even more vulnerable to some capacity freezes or worse...

I cannot speak for AA or UAL, but this month Delta offered some SIL (reduced hour) lines on overmanned seats, and they have slowed hiring down as well. I think we are seeing an industry trend right now of pulling back ever so slightly on the hiring...if only temporarily. If you have two offers--great! But I don't think the 4 month Delta captain (which I think has been reversed by last AE anyway) is the new normal. FedEx has some new hire 757 captains but those schedules can be brutal. Overall, it seems like there is a reversion to the mean going on in upgrade times....going down at SWA and up again at other places.

Again--don't mean to sound all gloom and doom...I think things are overall pretty darn good. More pilots have been hired at FedEx in 2 years than in my previous 14. I just spent a good part of my life talking to pilots from 2002-08 that had their world rocked, and it makes you a bit pragmatic. Things will be great--until they aren't--and those memos and FCIFs start coming out. SWA has proven to be exceptionally resilient during those times, and that might make me care a bit less about upgrade times verses security. There is no guarantee, however, the SWA of 2020 will be the same SWA of 2002, and the airline looks more like a legacy now than an upstart LCC.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 07:33 PM
If not, thereís this...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180702/0fdbaa5cd5db21e0ac8c8ae72e297798.jpg


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LOL! True, looking at this made my head hurt :D


https://s15.postimg.cc/q3ojnsa2z/IMG_1225.jpg

tanker
07-03-2018, 02:41 AM
Thatís the best you can do is to show an 11 year old pairing that was very rare even then.

DHC8DRV
07-07-2018, 03:12 PM
Thanks DHC8DRV. Any idea of the seniority percent of any one of those? Ie 65% for MDW

Much appreciated


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Here the numbers updated with the AUG seniority list and overall seniority percentage.

ATL 4/06 - 45%
BWI 5/08 - 60%
DAL 4/08 - 60%
DEN 9/07 - 58%
HOU 2/08 - 59%
LAS 5/08 - 60%
MCO 5/06 - 46%
MDW 4/08 - 59%
OAK 7/08 - 62%
PHX 10/07 - 58%

symbian simian
07-07-2018, 07:12 PM
Thanks for the general outline. While you are correct, I'm not on property, the reason I ask is for knowledge when deciding which companies to target. (Go ahead with the "get a job offer first line"...)

Just as domicile location, work rules, scope, pay rates, company financials, company culture, etc etc play into the decision of where to target employment so does upgrade potential. What you'll notice is I didn't ask "how long to upgrade to CA at x?". That indeed will change. By having the seniority number of the junior CA (or FO) at each base, coupled with mandatory retirements and projected growth, I'd argue you can get a fairly decent projection of when a domicile might become available.

So yes, I know everything can change; however, if I'm truly trying to build the full picture PRIOR to being on property this information is useful.

Like others have said, If you are in it for the upgrade SWA isn't the best.
At Spirit in start of 2014 the most junior captain in Detroit was a 350 number, the most junior captain overal was 650, based on past performance it would take 10 years to hold DTW as a new-hire. Half a year later they ran out of FOs who lived in DTW, and for the next year it was the junior base for captains. Relative seniority for upgrade means nothing for a new-hire if upgrade is a decade away. Right now upgrade is 1 year at DL if you take MD out of NYC. Even that is not guaranteed to be available by the time you would be on the property. Keep your nose clean, apply everywhere, keep updating after you get hired, not commuting and QOL are the most important.

flyguy81
07-07-2018, 07:58 PM
This was my point in asking exactly. What makes you say SWA is best for Denver? Why not UAL where they have their training hub and are expanding? How is SWA more stable there?

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DEN is UALís most senior base. Youíve got CAís there who can hold widebody and are flying a 737/320 so they can be at home. They opened a 757 base this year and it pretty much pays the same as the 737 and my buddy says the pairings arenít great. It itís still stupid senior...because Denver.

My friend has been there 3 yrs and is around 87% on the 737. Another buddy has been there a little over 2 and is on rsv also on the 737. Time to hold DEN is 18-24 months on avg.

For SWA you can hold it as a FO in 4-6 months. Iíve been here almost 3 yrs and am around 65% in base. Iíve been getting weekends off/partial weekends off for awhile. So QOL wise I think youíd be better off at SWA if DEN is your base of choice.

For Dallas, AA has the most choices in terms of trips, planes, movement due to retirements. But I havenít heard many good things about AA from their pilots. They stay because the pay is good (now) and career potential due to retirements.

If I lived in Chicago, Dallas, or Atlanta Iíd apply to every airline where I could drive to work. And then let the chips fall when/if I get a job offer. Beyond that is speculation and what ifís.

ShyGuy
07-08-2018, 08:30 PM
That’s the best you can do is to show an 11 year old pairing that was very rare even then.

Settle down Capn Happy, I wrote it in jest hence the ":D" smiley face. I think a 21:45 3-day trip is pretty cool.

THEKERNALKLINK
07-11-2018, 04:19 PM
Oh GOD, you're killing me smalls! :o)

THEKERNALKLINK
07-11-2018, 04:22 PM
Very cool. Count yourself among the few that might actually help someone else out !!

Oh my God, look how junior DAL is!!!! I guess you have to be pretty young to do all those corporate cheers and cartwheels while singing the "Ode to Herb."

THEKERNALKLINK
07-11-2018, 04:25 PM
What's the big deal about upgrade? At this level, there are many, many, many people bypassing upgrade because they're making well over 200k as FO's and have control over their schedules vs. taking a junior captain slot with zero control over your schedule.

If you're dying for that 4th stripe for other reasons i.e. you gotta be the one running the show, then hit up American and run to E-190. You'll upgrade within your first year.

Yes, and doing it as very junior FO's. Come in and sit down son / daughter, let your crazy uncle teach you how to work the system. It hasn't been as easy in '18 as '17 though, I'll say that.

Thunder1
07-13-2018, 02:31 PM
What's the big deal about upgrade? At this level, there are many, many, many people bypassing upgrade because they're making well over 200k as FO's and have control over their schedules vs. taking a junior captain slot with zero control over your schedule.

If you're dying for that 4th stripe for other reasons i.e. you gotta be the one running the show, then hit up American and run to E-190. You'll upgrade within your first year.

Yes, and doing it as very junior FO's. Come in and sit down son / daughter, let your crazy uncle teach you how to work the system. It hasn't been as easy in '18 as '17 though, I'll say that.

The game has definitely changed here in 2018 on how we make our $ but I am having my best year yet -- less work and more $
On track to do over 300K as an F/O but you have to live in domicile and have to know what game to play when -- it is not the same game this year as it was in previous years due to being temporarily over-manned on F/O's right now.

Smokey23
07-16-2018, 01:27 PM
Settle down Capn Happy, I wrote it in jest hence the ":D" smiley face. I think a 21:45 3-day trip is pretty cool.


That's about an average-paying 3-day around here (SWA). We have some 3-days that pay over 27 (and they're mostly long-haul trips)