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View Full Version : C Series Order


redbaronahp
07-01-2018, 09:33 PM
Now that Airbus has completed the C series transaction which makes the C Series aircraft part of the Airbus family, what are your thoughts on AA ordering them to replace the S80ís and 190s? Farborough is coming up in 2 weeks and aircraft manufacturers are scrambling to make deals to announce at the Airshow.


Varsity
07-01-2018, 09:54 PM
AA has a massive mountain of debt.

Wouldn't plan on it.

BackintheLPA
07-02-2018, 04:14 AM
AA should have the Embraer production line tied up building 195s. Delta for the win again.


SilverandSore
07-02-2018, 04:19 AM
AA has a massive mountain of debt.

Wouldn't plan on it.

Ummm, a large portion of our debt is from new aircraft orders...

Arado 234
07-02-2018, 04:37 AM
Expect the unexpected. Today the aircraft fleet is being "harmonized", tomorrow we'll get a new type because we got a really good deal.

Stock is wAAy down, I believe debt is one of the reasons.

$.02

Name User
07-02-2018, 05:04 AM
The stock is down because revenue isn't keeping up with expenses due to fuel and expected capacity reductions/lowering guidence. Earnings go down = lower EPS = lower stock price. Wall Street 101.

Debt isn't a big deal if you make more money on your assets. If you could borrow $1b and earn $100m a year (10%) but only pay $35m in interest (3.5%) wouldn't you borrow as much as you could? That is pretty close to AA's numbers.

Not to mention as rates go up their debt mostly remains fixed and with our cash on hand earning that rate or better it's essentially a wash.

Dent isn't worrisome as long as you have the ability to pay. What does irk me is they didn't use the income to invest in additional revenue but to buy back stock which has little tangible value and won't help us weather a downturn. With the airlines being as cyclical as they are it just doesn't make long term sense. In fact it rarely never does, 95% of buy backs occur at peak stock price.

The other thing is it shows a lack of consideration to the employees. If the company was smart and frugal with their money, when times are bad I'd be fine taking a pay cut to help out. They lost pretty much any goodwill they have given out by pay raises by all the wasted money they've thrown around at stupid #### that doesn't bring in revenue or improve our financial health.

Name User
07-02-2018, 05:10 AM
AA should have the Embraer production line tied up building 195s. Delta for the win again.
The 195 E2 is actually a better airplane inside of 1000 miles. The C series is efficient at long thin routes but because of its long range (3000 miles) it has a higher CASM on shorter flights due to having to carry the heavier structure around (ability to carry fuel costs weight which costs fuel).

On some shorter routes the 767-300 is actually more efficient than the 787 because of this.

Otterbox
07-02-2018, 07:01 AM
Now that Airbus has completed the C series transaction which makes the C Series aircraft part of the Airbus family, what are your thoughts on AA ordering them to replace the S80ís and 190s? Farborough is coming up in 2 weeks and aircraft manufacturers are scrambling to make deals to announce at the Airshow.

Youíre more likely to see them push for scope relief and upgauge all their 50 seat RJs to 76 (or more) and use those in combination with 319s during peak load times...

The 76 seat RJ/319 combo has already started to replace some of the S80 routes. Provided this combo is viewed as a financial win it will likely be the preferred course of action compared to a new fleet type (and they get to eliminate an additional fleet type thatís inefficient).

redbaronahp
07-02-2018, 07:27 AM
Youíre more likely to see them push for scope relief and upgauge all their 50 seat RJs to 76 (or more) and use those in combination with 319s during peak load times...

The 76 seat RJ/319 combo has already started to replace some of the S80 routes. Provided this combo is viewed as a financial win it will likely be the preferred course of action compared to a new fleet type (and they get to eliminate an additional fleet type thatís inefficient).

The CRJ 200 has got to be one of the most hated passenger planes within any passenger network. I think they should be parked, but Iím not a fan of providing any scope relief. The CRJ 900 has more first class seats than the A319 to make it a regional aircraft. I think the vast majority of flying should be done by AA.

jcountry
07-02-2018, 07:47 AM
The stock is down because revenue isn't keeping up with expenses due to fuel and expected capacity reductions/lowering guidence. Earnings go down = lower EPS = lower stock price. Wall Street 101.

Debt isn't a big deal if you make more money on your assets. If you could borrow $1b and earn $100m a year (10%) but only pay $35m in interest (3.5%) wouldn't you borrow as much as you could? That is pretty close to AA's numbers.

Not to mention as rates go up their debt mostly remains fixed and with our cash on hand earning that rate or better it's essentially a wash.

Dent isn't worrisome as long as you have the ability to pay. What does irk me is they didn't use the income to invest in additional revenue but to buy back stock which has little tangible value and won't help us weather a downturn. With the airlines being as cyclical as they are it just doesn't make long term sense. In fact it rarely never does, 95% of buy backs occur at peak stock price.

The other thing is it shows a lack of consideration to the employees. If the company was smart and frugal with their money, when times are bad I'd be fine taking a pay cut to help out. They lost pretty much any goodwill they have given out by pay raises by all the wasted money they've thrown around at stupid #### that doesn't bring in revenue or improve our financial health.

Very well said.

I donít think anyone thinks new aircraft are stupid to incur debt over.

I donít think anyone thinks the stock buybacks are a good idea on any level. Especially not the idea of borrowing to do them.

jcountry
07-02-2018, 07:54 AM
The CRJ 200 has got to be one of the most hated passenger planes within any passenger network. I think they should be parked, but Iím not a fan of providing any scope relief. The CRJ 900 has more first class seats than the A319 to make it a regional aircraft. I think the vast majority of flying should be done by AA.

Scope relief is an absolute no-go.


No matter what else is offered.

One of the reasons I would kind of favor a contract extension.

Our contract is complete crap. But to fix a lot of the bad stuff, the company would definitely want scope relief. And the old bastards would vote overwhelmingly in favor of it. An extension would mean more of them would be retired.

The more of them retire, the better our group will get overall. Most of them are bitter and angry about the way stuff has gone since 9-11. While that is understandable, most of them have no desire to leave the place in better shape.

I have literally heard ďscrew whatever happens next, Iím getting mine before I get out.Ē That statement applies to more than scope, it applies to NAI, ME3, and single pilot.

Just retire. Every time one of those ďscrew the futureĒ guys retires, our industry gets a little better.

I really do hear that. Just flew with one last week.

Otterbox
07-02-2018, 09:06 AM
Scope relief is an absolute no-go.


No matter what else is offered.

One of the reasons I would kind of favor a contract extension.

Our contract is complete crap. But to fix a lot of the bad stuff, the company would definitely want scope relief. And the old bastards would vote overwhelmingly in favor of it. An extension would mean more of them would be retired.

The more of them retire, the better our group will get overall. Most of them are bitter and angry about the way stuff has gone since 9-11. While that is understandable, most of them have no desire to leave the place in better shape.

I have literally heard “screw whatever happens next, I’m getting mine before I get out.” That statement applies to more than scope, it applies to NAI, ME3, and single pilot.

Just retire. Every time one of those “screw the future” guys retires, our industry gets a little better.

I really do hear that. Just flew with one last week.

They’re not the only ones...

I know a few AA military new hires. The ones who haven’t done airlines before are all about giving up scope “because the loads are always full now and anything that can help the company become more profitable is good.”

redbaronahp
07-02-2018, 10:07 AM
Theyíre not the only ones...

I know a few AA military new hires. The ones who havenít done airlines before are all about giving up scope ďbecause the loads are always full now and anything that can help the company become more profitable is good.Ē

Military pilots are good pilots but the ones that didnít spend any time at a regional while waiting for the offer from mainline have no clue and some donít care about the struggle of regional pilots. Iím 100% for tightening the scope clause and not loosening it. Shrink the regional airlines!

sherpster
07-02-2018, 11:16 AM
Military pilots are good pilots but the ones that didnít spend any time at a regional while waiting for the offer from mainline have no clue and some donít care about the struggle of regional pilots. Iím 100% for tightening the scope clause and not loosening it. Shrink the regional airlines!

Military guys are the last ones for getting rid of scope. I havent heard that from even 1 military guy. 99% of us mil guys will fly a kite if it pays enough.

With that said I have from some former regional guys who dont want to do that kind of flying since they have already done it. Those are the guys you should be afraid of.

redbaronahp
07-02-2018, 01:20 PM
Military guys are the last ones for getting rid of scope. I havent heard that from even 1 military guy. 99% of us mil guys will fly a kite if it pays enough.

With that said I have from some former regional guys who dont want to do that kind of flying since they have already done it. Those are the guys you should be afraid of.

Thatís good to hear. My comment stems from a common joke among regional pilots that comes from jumpseating on any mainline. The military mainline pilots turn around and say, ďhey, you know we are hiring. You should apply,Ē which goes over about as well as farting in the cockpit. Itís not that easy to escape the regionals when actively trying to move up to mainline. Pay me enough and I too would fly a kite for the rest of my career.

SilentLurker
07-02-2018, 01:42 PM
Not to mention as rates go up their debt mostly remains fixed and with our cash on hand earning that rate or better it's essentially a wash.



Debt isn't worrisome as long as you have the ability to pay. What does irk me is they didn't use the income to invest in additional revenue but to buy back stock which has little tangible value and won't help us weather a downturn. With the airlines being as cyclical as they are it just doesn't make long term sense. In fact it rarely never does, 95% of buy backs occur at peak stock price.



The other thing is it shows a lack of consideration to the employees. If the company was smart and frugal with their money, when times are bad I'd be fine taking a pay cut to help out. They lost pretty much any goodwill they have given out by pay raises by all the wasted money they've thrown around at stupid #### that doesn't bring in revenue or improve our financial health.


Post of the day! Some people donít understand the basics. This guy does.

Hell, this nation is successful and debt heavy! Itís the ďAmerican Way,Ē lots of debt heavy successful citizens (homeowners, lawyers, doctors, entertainers, CEOs) and many corporations! Itís the America way to leverage everything now for opportunity growth. We buy everything on credit (education, vehicles, careers, marriage, homes), including electing a peculiar President, for that personal financial ďgrowth.Ē

redbaronahp
07-02-2018, 03:04 PM
And that is why I asked my original question. The 80ís and 190ís are going away in the next 1 to 2 years and I donít want to relax the scope to allow more RJís. The replacement options are 737-700ís or A319ís which arenít as efficient as the 195-E2 or CS-100/300.

Cheddar
07-03-2018, 03:44 PM
Isom has mentioned in more than one crew news that they need a 100-130 seat airplane to fill in the gap and replace the E190/S80. They planned on A319Neos, but the Airbus majority acquisition of the C-Series and creation of the CSALP has probably killed the 319. Airbus has already stated that they would much rather sell 320/321 Neos as opposed to 319ís because of the higher margins. Also, I donít think there are more than 10 A319Neos on order anywhere. Itís a loser for Airbus.

Boeing doesnít have a 100 seat offering and I think at some point we will see A210ís and A230ís running around as part of future Airbus narrowbody deals. Thatís unless we can buy every late model/slightly used 319 out there.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EMBFlyer
07-03-2018, 04:41 PM
Scope relief is an absolute no-go.


No matter what else is offered.

One of the reasons I would kind of favor a contract extension.

Our contract is complete crap. But to fix a lot of the bad stuff, the company would definitely want scope relief. And the old bastards would vote overwhelmingly in favor of it. An extension would mean more of them would be retired.

The more of them retire, the better our group will get overall. Most of them are bitter and angry about the way stuff has gone since 9-11. While that is understandable, most of them have no desire to leave the place in better shape.

I have literally heard ďscrew whatever happens next, Iím getting mine before I get out.Ē That statement applies to more than scope, it applies to NAI, ME3, and single pilot.

Just retire. Every time one of those ďscrew the futureĒ guys retires, our industry gets a little better.

I really do hear that. Just flew with one last week.

Don't forget the one on C&R who said he'd vote against "junior pilot" contract wants because he's ****ed about the jumpseat.

Slowmover
07-03-2018, 07:20 PM
Thatís good to hear. My comment stems from a common joke among regional pilots that comes from jumpseating on any mainline. The military mainline pilots turn around and say, ďhey, you know we are hiring. You should apply,Ē which goes over about as well as farting in the cockpit. Itís not that easy to escape the regionals when actively trying to move up to mainline. Pay me enough and I too would fly a kite for the rest of my career.

OK, I'll bite... new hire, military background, no idea what scope is or why this joke exists. Will someone explain it to me please?

Laker24
07-03-2018, 09:00 PM
Scope guarantees that all aircraft above a certain size have to be flown by mainline American Airlines pilots. Without scope instead of paying a B737 CA 300k Parker could put the 737 at Envoy and have them fly it for 90k. More than half of AAL departures are operated by the regionals. Without scope that ratio would get worse and worse.

redbaronahp
07-03-2018, 10:19 PM
OK, I'll bite... new hire, military background, no idea what scope is or why this joke exists. Will someone explain it to me please?

On many occasions before getting hired at AA when riding the Jumpseat and making idle chit chat the pilots would say, you know weíre hiring. That comment has been heard by many regional pilots that have had their apps in at all the majors for many years. Itís not really a joke as a frustrating reality. When I interviewed I was told that there were over 6,000 active applications that had been updated within the past 90 days. Itís a competitive industry and the numbers Iíve seen are only about 10% of the new hires have a civilian only background and were hired off the street outside of a flow-through agreement. Thatís less than 100 people per year.

PRS Guitars
07-03-2018, 10:26 PM
On many occasions before getting hired at AA when riding the Jumpseat and making idle chit chat the pilots would say, you know weíre hiring. That comment has been heard by many regional pilots that have had their apps in at all the majors for many years. Itís not really a joke as a frustrating reality. When I interviewed I was told that there were over 6,000 active applications that had been updated within the past 90 days. Itís a competitive industry and the numbers Iíve seen are only about 10% of the new hires have a civilian only background and were hired off the street outside of a flow-through agreement. Thatís less than 100 people per year.

Itís not that they are military pilots saying ďyou know weíre hiringĒ itís old guys that arenít in touch with the hiring situation in the industry that say that.

PRS Guitars
07-03-2018, 10:34 PM
OK, I'll bite... new hire, military background, no idea what scope is or why this joke exists. Will someone explain it to me please?

Itís time for you to start learning this stuff (scope, etc), we have contract negotiations coming up, you need to be up to speed, and ready to recognize a bad TA (Tentative Agreement) and vote NO on it. In case you hadnít learned yet, we have a lagging contract. PM me if you have any other questions, I was (am) military background as well.

Name User
07-04-2018, 02:28 AM
Isom has mentioned in more than one crew news that they need a 100-130 seat airplane to fill in the gap and replace the E190/S80. They planned on A319Neos, but the Airbus majority acquisition of the C-Series and creation of the CSALP has probably killed the 319. Airbus has already stated that they would much rather sell 320/321 Neos as opposed to 319ís because of the higher margins. Also, I donít think there are more than 10 A319Neos on order anywhere. Itís a loser for Airbus.

Boeing doesnít have a 100 seat offering and I think at some point we will see A210ís and A230ís running around as part of future Airbus narrowbody deals. Thatís unless we can buy every late model/slightly used 319 out there.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No one is buying the 319 because for $5m more you can get an airplane that seats almost 50% more people on only a slight increase in operating costs (the 321).

BOGSAT
07-04-2018, 04:04 AM
No one is buying the 319 because for $5m more you can get an airplane that seats almost 50% more people on only a slight increase in operating costs (the 321).

What ever happened to the ďdealĒ with Frontier for their 319s?

Slowmover
07-04-2018, 06:05 AM
Thanks for the explanations!

Itís time for you to start learning this stuff (scope, etc), we have contract negotiations coming up, you need to be up to speed...

Yeah I know... as soon as I get off IOE I plan to spend more time on it. My APA mentor has been a huge help so far and I imagine that will continue.

Cactusone
07-04-2018, 09:48 AM
What ever happened to the ďdealĒ with Frontier for their 319s?



Word is one is in paint this month.


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Al Czervik
07-04-2018, 10:13 AM
Don't forget the one on C&R who said he'd vote against "junior pilot" contract wants because he's ****ed about the jumpseat.

Who wuz dat?!?!

Regionalsuck
07-04-2018, 03:11 PM
OK, I'll bite... new hire, military background, no idea what scope is or why this joke exists. Will someone explain it to me please?

To add to what others said, the way it will go down is the company will dangle a carrot of $$$ or whatever to get more scope relief in contract negotiations. Don't fall for it, that is why the industry is so screwed up already. The quick cash they try to tempt people with will never make up for the destruction of your career here long term. That is why half of the airline departures are now flown by people making peanuts living paycheck to paycheck for the last decade + and never get the chance to move up. If the jobs were still at AA and not at 10 different regionals the people at AA, DAL, UAL people wouldn't have been out on furlough forever and wouldn't have stagnated in the right seat with virtually no upwards progression for nearly 20 years while the regionals grew bigger and bigger now flying 4+ hour flights cross country paying an FO 24K a year.

The scary thing is there is so many old people here near retirement that literally don't give a damn about long term viability of the job here, many will sell out everyone in a second if given the opportunity. They will be happy to throw everyone under the bus, take the quick cash and be gone off into the sunset before everyones career here is wrecked and stagnated again due to more outsourcing cheaper labor at the regionals.

Scope needs to be reeled back in and the regionals need to die.

FLPS30GRDWN
07-04-2018, 05:31 PM
Itís not that they are military pilots saying ďyou know weíre hiringĒ itís old guys that arenít in touch with the hiring situation in the industry that say that.



This.

My favorite E190 story is the time we had a legacy AA pilot on the jumpseat ask if weíd applied to American. (3 years post merger).

ďYeah man we work with you. You may want to update yourself with the planes the company is flying.Ē

redbaronahp
07-04-2018, 05:46 PM
this.

My favorite e190 story is the time we had a legacy aa pilot on the jumpseat ask if weíd applied to american. (3 years post merger).

ďyeah man we work with you. You may want to update yourself with the planes the company is flying.Ē

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

PRS Guitars
07-04-2018, 09:55 PM
This.

My favorite E190 story is the time we had a legacy AA pilot on the jumpseat ask if weíd applied to American. (3 years post merger).

ďYeah man we work with you. You may want to update yourself with the planes the company is flying.Ē

Yup, there are some good 190 stories out there, there were LUS 330 Captains that said the same thing to 190 crews...

Heavy Hive
07-05-2018, 05:15 AM
Scope relief is an absolute no-go.


No matter what else is offered.

One of the reasons I would kind of favor a contract extension.

Our contract is complete crap. But to fix a lot of the bad stuff, the company would definitely want scope relief. And the old bastards would vote overwhelmingly in favor of it. An extension would mean more of them would be retired.

The more of them retire, the better our group will get overall. Most of them are bitter and angry about the way stuff has gone since 9-11. While that is understandable, most of them have no desire to leave the place in better shape.

I have literally heard “screw whatever happens next, I’m getting mine before I get out.” That statement applies to more than scope, it applies to NAI, ME3, and single pilot.

Just retire. Every time one of those “screw the future” guys retires, our industry gets a little better.

I really do hear that. Just flew with one last week.

I retire in 10 months. I think you really need to think about what you say. I voted NO on every concession floated. I would never ever give RJ relief. The entire RJ mess weakens the airline bottom line. The wholly owned companies are a mess and getting worse.
I see the younger crowd buying boats and planes. Big houses as well.
AA is headed for big trouble the way it is being run. You guys better be ready. They are going to furlough through retirements, and hire fewer if they can. The minute the first shock wave ripples through again, you are going to see pressure on the pilots. All those new captains will be under huge pressure to keep their seats, or the wife leaves, as well as the toys. Trust me on that.
Me? I will vote no up to the day I walk out the door and throw my I pad over my shoulder. Concessions only make them dumber instead of operating smarter. I have watched SWA long enough to figure how it should be done. Good luck.

EMBFlyer
07-05-2018, 05:53 AM
This.

My favorite E190 story is the time we had a legacy AA pilot on the jumpseat ask if weíd applied to American. (3 years post merger).

ďYeah man we work with you. You may want to update yourself with the planes the company is flying.Ē

The best one I heard was someone in 737 training who had flown the 190 at one time.

Check Airman: "Who'd you fly the E190 for?"
Student: "US Airways"
Check Airman: "Oh, well over here, we call the carrier that does Eagle flying Envoy. What did you call it over there?"
Student: "US Airways"

Arado 234
07-05-2018, 11:52 AM
Don't forget the one on C&R who said he'd vote against "junior pilot" contract wants because he's ****ed about the jumpseat.

Details please! This is getting interesting!

mainlineAF
07-05-2018, 12:00 PM
I retire in 10 months. I think you really need to think about what you say. I voted NO on every concession floated. I would never ever give RJ relief. The entire RJ mess weakens the airline bottom line. The wholly owned companies are a mess and getting worse.
I see the younger crowd buying boats and planes. Big houses as well.
AA is headed for big trouble the way it is being run. You guys better be ready. They are going to furlough through retirements, and hire fewer if they can. The minute the first shock wave ripples through again, you are going to see pressure on the pilots. All those new captains will be under huge pressure to keep their seats, or the wife leaves, as well as the toys. Trust me on that.
Me? I will vote no up to the day I walk out the door and throw my I pad over my shoulder. Concessions only make them dumber instead of operating smarter. I have watched SWA long enough to figure how it should be done. Good luck.



He is way out in left field on most topics, this included. Most guys like you who are about to retire are fighting the good fight and would never pull up the ladder. Enjoy retirement.

Dolphinflyer
07-05-2018, 12:54 PM
He is way out in left field on most topics, this included. Most guys like you who are about to retire are fighting the good fight and would never pull up the ladder. Enjoy retirement.


Agreed here too. Most LAA guys under 2K seniority paid a steep price from the 1987 SCOPE give followed by the RJ's.

I'm willing to bet a 50/50 chance his online personality carries into the
cockpit and layovers. Most LAA and LUS narrow body Captains have 15-20 years in the right seat and are very skilled at spinning a problem child up without lifting a finger. :D
(Not in the cockpit of course, no place for that)

Battlinbear21
07-05-2018, 01:37 PM
The best one I heard was someone in 737 training who had flown the 190 at one time.

Check Airman: "Who'd you fly the E190 for?"
Student: "US Airways"
Check Airman: "Oh, well over here, we call the carrier that does Eagle flying Envoy. What did you call it over there?"
Student: "US Airways"

That gold. Iíve just finished OE and similar events happened 3 times on a 4 day. A positive space Kallita guy came up to say hello and tell us how great things are over there w upgrade on 74 being 2 years, and 1st year pay is over 100/hr. His confused look when I asked ď what 2nd year? oh wow...thatís 30 less than group 2 here.Ē Lga ramp called us a republic 175 to another plane waiting to get in alley. Gonna be a fun year or maybe longer...who knows.. the 190 seems to be staffed appropriately. For now.. I havenít worked in 19 days. Loving my decision to fly the ďregionalĒ jet at mainline :) ty again to everyone on here who helped me w decision as a new hire. Itís been aces so far.

Al Czervik
07-05-2018, 03:05 PM
I retire in 10 months. I think you really need to think about what you say. I voted NO on every concession floated. I would never ever give RJ relief. The entire RJ mess weakens the airline bottom line. The wholly owned companies are a mess and getting worse.
I see the younger crowd buying boats and planes. Big houses as well.
AA is headed for big trouble the way it is being run. You guys better be ready. They are going to furlough through retirements, and hire fewer if they can. The minute the first shock wave ripples through again, you are going to see pressure on the pilots. All those new captains will be under huge pressure to keep their seats, or the wife leaves, as well as the toys. Trust me on that.
Me? I will vote no up to the day I walk out the door and throw my I pad over my shoulder. Concessions only make them dumber instead of operating smarter. I have watched SWA long enough to figure how it should be done. Good luck.

Bravo!!!!!!!

Cheddar
07-05-2018, 06:11 PM
This.

My favorite E190 story is the time we had a legacy AA pilot on the jumpseat ask if weíd applied to American. (3 years post merger).

ďYeah man we work with you. You may want to update yourself with the planes the company is flying.Ē



Sheesh man, how many times do I have to apologize?!?

[emoji854]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

chrisreedrules
07-06-2018, 05:34 AM
I retire in 10 months. I think you really need to think about what you say. I voted NO on every concession floated. I would never ever give RJ relief. The entire RJ mess weakens the airline bottom line. The wholly owned companies are a mess and getting worse.
I see the younger crowd buying boats and planes. Big houses as well.
AA is headed for big trouble the way it is being run. You guys better be ready. They are going to furlough through retirements, and hire fewer if they can. The minute the first shock wave ripples through again, you are going to see pressure on the pilots. All those new captains will be under huge pressure to keep their seats, or the wife leaves, as well as the toys. Trust me on that.
Me? I will vote no up to the day I walk out the door and throw my I pad over my shoulder. Concessions only make them dumber instead of operating smarter. I have watched SWA long enough to figure how it should be done. Good luck.

I too believe that the US economy is in for a hit in the next couple years. Although with the massive amount of retirements at AA combined with the relatively small amount of hiring ďfront-loadingĒ compared to day Delta, I canít help but think AA will simply have to keep hiring even through a downturn. I hope anyway.

Although it begs the question... Better to be stuck as a senior regional CA durning a downtourn or a jr legacy FO?

Varsity
07-06-2018, 02:31 PM
Post of the day! Some people donít understand the basics. This guy does.

Hell, this nation is successful and debt heavy! Itís the ďAmerican Way,Ē lots of debt heavy successful citizens (homeowners, lawyers, doctors, entertainers, CEOs) and many corporations! Itís the America way to leverage everything now for opportunity growth. We buy everything on credit (education, vehicles, careers, marriage, homes), including electing a peculiar President, for that personal financial ďgrowth.Ē


My previous career was institutional lending/syndication in the big 4.

This might come as a shock to you, as a brilliant airplane pilot but financing billions worth of aircraft has almost nothing in common with your mortgage or boat loan.

AA financed these aircraft in credit pools of dozens of lenders that agree on a libor spread + fees for the runner.

Libor is calculated every single day and makes the rates variable. No bank on earth would finance 30b+ of high risk assets at a fixed rated.

If interest rates go up, so do the rates on these aircraft.

If banks exit the pool during a credit crisis, the rates go up.

If AA becomes a riskier borrower, banks will leave, driving rates up.

It's not a win-win situation and it's why Delta is so much more successful than the other 2.

minivan
07-06-2018, 03:52 PM
My previous career was institutional lending/syndication in the big 4.

This might come as a shock to you, as a brilliant airplane pilot but financing billions worth of aircraft has almost nothing in common with your mortgage or boat loan.


AA financed these aircraft in credit pools of dozens of lenders that agree on a libor spread + fees for the runner.

Libor is calculated every single day and makes the rates variable. No bank on earth would finance 30b+ of high risk assets at a fixed rated.

If interest rates go up, so do the rates on these aircraft.

If banks exit the pool during a credit crisis, the rates go up.

If AA becomes a riskier borrower, banks will leave, driving rates up.

It's not a win-win situation and it's why Delta is so much more successful than the other 2.

It is twat it is.

Name User
07-06-2018, 05:00 PM
Either Parker or Isom stated they paid off all their higher rate debt and refinanced into five year fixed terms. So it's true, it will go up. But it will be quite a while and anything could happen.

Remember when they took on those loans the entire world was searching for any sort of yield. There were even countries with negative interest rates out there to try to force asset holders to spend.

flyinawa
07-06-2018, 08:00 PM
Although it begs the question... Better to be stuck as a senior regional CA durning a downtourn or a jr legacy FO?

Better to be at the bottom of the top than the top of the bottom. Say the economy tanks for 5 years.. you have 5 years seniority at the mainline and are that much closer to max pay when the economy turns around. There is a LOT to be said for QOL but I sat in the 90% for 12 years on an Airbus and Iíd do it Monday through Saturday and twice on Sunday if faced with a chance to do it all over again...of course, I bought a house in base on the 3rd day of new hire ground school.

Name User
07-07-2018, 05:46 AM
Better to be at the bottom of the top than the top of the bottom. Say the economy tanks for 5 years.. you have 5 years seniority at the mainline and are that much closer to max pay when the economy turns around. There is a LOT to be said for QOL but I sat in the 90% for 12 years on an Airbus and Iíd do it Monday through Saturday and twice on Sunday if faced with a chance to do it all over again...of course, I bought a house in base on the 3rd day of new hire ground school.

Now imagine if you had been displaced across the country commuting to a different base. Life would suck.

flyinawa
07-07-2018, 06:54 AM
Now imagine if you had been displaced across the country commuting to a different base. Life would suck.

Which is why I added ďof course, I bought a house....Ē. I two leg (and sometimes three leg) commuted to my previous job for the bulk of the time I was there, the first leg was always off-line, I was always junior. And that ALWAYS sucked.

mainlineAF
07-07-2018, 06:57 AM
My previous career was institutional lending/syndication in the big 4.



This might come as a shock to you, as a brilliant airplane pilot but financing billions worth of aircraft has almost nothing in common with your mortgage or boat loan.



AA financed these aircraft in credit pools of dozens of lenders that agree on a libor spread + fees for the runner.



Libor is calculated every single day and makes the rates variable. No bank on earth would finance 30b+ of high risk assets at a fixed rated.



If interest rates go up, so do the rates on these aircraft.



If banks exit the pool during a credit crisis, the rates go up.



If AA becomes a riskier borrower, banks will leave, driving rates up.



It's not a win-win situation and it's why Delta is so much more successful than the other 2.



Iím sure AA leadership never even thought about any of this! [email protected]

Theaveragejoker
07-07-2018, 11:18 AM
Anyone have a clue how this Boeing/Embraer deal could influence the S80/190 replacements?

Al Czervik
07-07-2018, 12:14 PM
Anyone have a clue how this Boeing/Embraer deal could influence the S80/190 replacements?

We will phase out the SUPER DUPER 80. We will get C Series and operated them procedurally exactly like the 80.

Name User
07-07-2018, 12:50 PM
Anything under 1000nm and the 195-E2 is actually a more efficient airplane vs the C series on total trip costs. It would be perfect for all our regional (but larger market) routes out of DFW since it is fairly centrally located to those markets, and with not very many sales maybe they are looking to deal.

I remember all the crying guys were doing with the Group I rates thinking we'd replace our Group II aircraft with hundreds of them.

Delta's advantage is they paid almost nothing for their C series but were rumored to owe Bombardier a royalty anytime the aircraft is operated over 1000nm.

Also the C series is a much nicer aircraft inside with a better passenger experience (the E190 product feels much more cramped and regional-ish). It's a nice airplane and Delta certainly made the right call especially at their price point. What a deal. It's incredible how their management always hits home runs.

Arado 234
07-07-2018, 05:12 PM
We will phase out the SUPER DUPER 80. We will get C Series and operated them procedurally exactly like the 80.

Please lead by example with an upward swinging hand motion to indicate the gear retraction.

Sliceback
07-07-2018, 05:25 PM
CS 100 is five abreast(seatguru.com). 20% of the seats are middle seats.

The E series I've been on are four across. Zero middle seats. I'd take that over any five or six abreast n/b.

If the E-190v2 is more efficient under 1000 nm I hope we buy a bunch of them.

Arado 234
07-07-2018, 05:40 PM
If the E-190v2 is more efficient under 1000 nm I hope we buy a bunch of them.

Tell APA to negotiate a better pay scale for G1 aircraft.

PRS Guitars
07-07-2018, 06:58 PM
Tell APA to negotiate a better pay scale for G1 aircraft.

Everyone needs to email their reps and the NC about Group 1 rates. Itís very important in this contract, because like em not (and Iím with Sliceback, hope we buy a ton) they are in our future. Group 1 Capt should pay more than Group 2 FO. Group 1 FO shouldnít pay year 1 rates during your second year...

TransWorld
07-07-2018, 07:23 PM
I predict with the upcoming wave of retirements, PAX that fly on most of the 76 seat RJs will be on the CS100 (or the like) flown by Group I mainline. That will be a huge bunch of Group I flying.

PAX that fly on a majority of the 50 seat RJs will be on the 76 seat RJs with less frequency. Only very thin routes will still fly 50 seat RJs.

The regionals will shrink and consolidate. In a few years they will look like a skeleton of what they are today.

That is what my crystal ball says (which has a track record of being pretty accurate).

Frip
07-08-2018, 04:34 AM
Please lead by example with an upward swinging hand motion to indicate the gear retraction.

They took that out quite a while back ago.

Of course, I'm sure we will keep right in calling out normal indicatins on approach, like "Stable" and perfectly normal Speed/Sink Rates.

And who's idea was it ever to call out "4 lights"?
That has never been in the book.

Arado 234
07-08-2018, 06:16 AM
Of course, I'm sure we will keep right in calling out normal indicatins on approach, like "Stable" and perfectly normal Speed/Sink Rate.

The "Stable" call on approach is pretty much a standard amongst operators.

MarineGrunt
07-08-2018, 06:21 AM
Everyone needs to email their reps and the NC about Group 1 rates. Itís very important in this contract, because like em not (and Iím with Sliceback, hope we buy a ton) they are in our future. Group 1 Capt should pay more than Group 2 FO. Group 1 FO shouldnít pay year 1 rates during your second year...

Should pay more than G4 FO in my opinion. Itís a legacy airline captain position. It should pay like one.

swaayze
07-08-2018, 06:52 AM
Please lead by example with an upward swinging hand motion to indicate the gear retraction.

I like it. Is it needless 95% of the time? Sure. But as much as guys mumble, speak softly and talk on the intercom with the mic inches from their mouth it's a nice confirmation that they said what I assume they said.

Back to the G1 airplane discussion......

I still think weíll see an order at some point, especially if we donít nail down better rates soon.

Frip
07-08-2018, 07:02 AM
The "Stable" call on approach is pretty much a standard amongst operators.


Still redundant, just like the waving hand gear up thing...

I don't care, but it has become a rote response to the RA 1000' annunciation, which is incorrect anyway, so what's the point?

I'd prefer folks actually think, ahead, and call out non-normal indications and trends and otherwise let there be peace. That's just me and they didn't ask, so I make the calls.

Frip
07-08-2018, 07:03 AM
The required ones:D

PRS Guitars
07-08-2018, 07:33 AM
And who's idea was it ever to call out "4 lights"?
That has never been in the book.

What is the ď4 lightsĒ call. Iíve never heard it. Iím on the Airbus for what itís worth, is it a 737 thing.

EMBFlyer
07-08-2018, 07:59 AM
What is the ď4 lightsĒ call. Iíve never heard it. Iím on the Airbus for what itís worth, is it a 737 thing.

Never heard "4 lights" on the 737.

seafeye
07-08-2018, 08:35 AM
I predict with the upcoming wave of retirements, PAX that fly on most of the 76 seat RJs will be on the CS100 (or the like) flown by Group I mainline. That will be a huge bunch of Group I flying.

PAX that fly on a majority of the 50 seat RJs will be on the 76 seat RJs with less frequency. Only very thin routes will still fly 50 seat RJs.

The regionals will shrink and consolidate. In a few years they will look like a skeleton of what they are today.

That is what my crystal ball says (which has a track record of being pretty accurate).


I think scope will be given up in exchange for the improvements in our contract. You watch....

Baradium
07-08-2018, 08:57 AM
CS 100 is five abreast(seatguru.com). 20% of the seats are middle seats.

The E series I've been on are four across. Zero middle seats. I'd take that over any five or six abreast n/b.

If the E-190v2 is more efficient under 1000 nm I hope we buy a bunch of them.

The C series already has the widest coach seats in the industry and the middle seat is wider than the rest. So while it's a middle seat it was preloaded with its own benefit.

Al Czervik
07-08-2018, 09:06 AM
Still redundant, just like the waving hand gear up thing...

I don't care, but it has become a rote response to the RA 1000' annunciation, which is incorrect anyway, so what's the point?

I'd prefer folks actually think, ahead, and call out non-normal indications and trends and otherwise let there be peace. That's just me and they didn't ask, so I make the calls.

This shows a total misunderstanding about CRM and the pitfalls of what one guy thinks vs the other. Surely this very senior CA knows he’s depending at 1500fpm at 500’ and doesn’t need to hear it from my junior ass......riiiiiight?

chrisreedrules
07-08-2018, 10:05 AM
I think scope will be given up in exchange for the improvements in our contract. You watch....

If anything there should be a concerted effort to bring the flying back in house. All 76+ seat jets should be flown at mainline. Period.

If you brought in the CRJ900s and E175s on the mainline certificate and made a ďGroup 0Ē or whatever you want to call it rate AA would have no issues staffing the flying like theyíre going to have at their regionals within a few years time. Pay FOs $75 /hour year 1 and CAís $125 /hour year 1 and theyíll never have a problem staffing it ever again.

Arado 234
07-08-2018, 11:45 AM
This shows a total misunderstanding about CRM and the pitfalls of what one guy thinks vs the other. Surely this very senior CA knows heís depending at 1500fpm at 500í and doesnít need to hear it from my junior ass......riiiiiight?

+1. It is not useless, at a certain point you have to confirm that the PF is stable on approach. According to several check airmen and data shown at the school house (sigh) unstable approaches lead to more go-arounds, long landings etc.

The sweeping hand up motion originated from the DC2 days I was told, due to the high noise level in the cockpit. Why the upset in abolishing it in a jet where you can hear the jumpseater fart on rotation is beyond me.

I guess some procedures are still considered super... better than others. Time to take... nevermind.

Arado 234
07-08-2018, 11:50 AM
This shows a total misunderstanding about CRM and the pitfalls of what one guy thinks vs the other. Surely this very senior CA knows heís depending at 1500fpm at 500í and doesnít need to hear it from my junior ass......riiiiiight?

Same attitude about the light switches and the seat belt sign. Only the mighty Captain may touch or command the movement. Even traditional conservative operators (e.g. BA, Cx) are further ahead in the PF/PNF concept than GSW.

Heard the check airmen had an hour long henhouse Fest about those two "issues". Thank God there are no other problems in life.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 12:08 PM
The "Stable" call on approach is pretty much a standard amongst operators.

Which is funny, because enough of us have lived through the era when the smartest analysts thought "don't call out normal stuff" was the Gold Standard.

We're now living in a new Gold Standard which is why we're cynical, especially when someone says "but this is THE way!" Yeah, our brains eventually get wrapped around it but I have to wonder if they took the previous expert out to the woods and shot him?

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 12:15 PM
We've lived through -

Lots of immediate action checklists
to less immediate action checklists
to using checklists
to just doing it
to doing it from memory without checklists
and now - having a printed checklist in all aircraft that you do first.

Between different schools of thought in the industry, different manufacturers theories and checklists philosophies, to different management, it becomes a blur after awhile.

Years ago "we're doing xyz." Nope, we're can't. "Why not?" Because they say don't to that. "Since when?" I don't know, for at least the five years I've been here? "Seriously, they took that out of the book?"

Oral - Designee and I disagree. New CKA observing. We get the book out. Designee was wrong. They'd changed the book. To me it was the way it was. Simple. To the CKA it was a change. Throw out the old and remember the new.

Arado 234
07-08-2018, 12:21 PM
Which is funny, because enough of us have lived through the era when the smartest analysts thought "don't call out normal stuff" was the Gold Standard.

Isnít this called progression?

Frip
07-08-2018, 12:45 PM
Surely this very senior CA knows heís depending at 1500fpm at 500í and doesnít need to hear it from my junior ass......riiiiiight?


That would be a.b.normal and entirely deserving of the required call out, which is "Go Around"

Four Lights is a -9 "thing", reverse, and unnecessary, and never been in the book, and very common.

Al Czervik
07-08-2018, 01:58 PM
That would be a.b.normal and entirely deserving of the required call out, which is "Go Around"


Are you a LAA CA?

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 03:17 PM
The C series already has the widest coach seats in the industry and the middle seat is wider than the rest. So while it's a middle seat it was preloaded with its own benefit.

Do you have any site you support your comment regarding "the widest coach seats in the industry"?

Seatguru.com -

CS100 - 17"
AA's fleet -
737-800 16.9-17.3
MAX 16.6-17.8
321 17-18" standard

E190 - 16.5"

E190-E2 - 18.3" (Embraer site)


The CS100 has 20% middle seats with 17" width.
The E190-E2 has no middle seats with 18.3" width.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 03:24 PM
Same attitude about the light switches and the seat belt sign. Only the mighty Captain may touch or command the movement. Even traditional conservative operators (e.g. BA, Cx) are further ahead in the PF/PNF concept than GSW.

Heard the check airmen had an hour long henhouse Fest about those two "issues". Thank God there are no other problems in life.

Hahahahahha. BA? The handling, but non-landing pilot, communicating with the non-handling and non-landing pilot, both trying not to distract the non-handling but landing pilot? All before the non-landing handling pilot transitions to the non-landing non-handling pilot while the non-handling landing pilot reverts to the handling landing pilot?

There's a BA version that's out there that's hysterically confusing but apparently correct.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 03:26 PM
Isnít this called progression?

No. We USED to call out the stuff. Then the experts decided "this is dumb" and we STOPPED calling it out. Now it's come back in vogue to call it out.

Is it really progression if the forward progress reverts to the original position that the experts decided was superfluous?

AAL24
07-08-2018, 03:52 PM
Which is funny, because enough of us have lived through the era when the smartest analysts thought "don't call out normal stuff" was the Gold Standard.

We're now living in a new Gold Standard which is why we're cynical, especially when someone says "but this is THE way!" Yeah, our brains eventually get wrapped around it but I have to wonder if they took the previous expert out to the woods and shot him?

Dude youíre getting paid 200, 300, $400k. Who gives a sh$t?? Unstable approaches are a big contributor to runway overruns. Making the PF verbalize ďstableĒ is a way to call attention to a potentially dangerous approach. I donít think any professional pilot plans on landing 30kts fast and running off the runway. Yet it happens. Personally Iím on board with any callout or procedure that may help trap errors when Iím having a bad day.

Frip
07-08-2018, 04:40 PM
Are you a LAA CA?

Yup
So?
Say some thing that is not correct?

mainlineAF
07-08-2018, 06:20 PM
Iím just glad AA isnít furloughing and weíre making good money. I could care less about callouts/procedures.

Name User
07-08-2018, 06:54 PM
Iím just glad AA isnít furloughing and weíre making good money. I could care less about callouts/procedures.

Yeah you know things are good when this is what we are worried about.

Hueypilot
07-08-2018, 08:40 PM
Group I CA pay should be equal to or greater than Group IV FO pay.

Group I FO pay should be indexed at 80% of Group II FO pay.

The end. If they paid that amount, people would actually want to stay on the airplane.

PRS Guitars
07-08-2018, 09:26 PM
Group I CA pay should be equal to or greater than Group IV FO pay.

Group I FO pay should be indexed at 80% of Group II FO pay.

The end. If they paid that amount, people would actually want to stay on the airplane.

Exactly. The thing to consider is, these could easily end up based at DFW. Better pay rates would make it a very attractive option.

Arado 234
07-09-2018, 05:36 AM
Exactly. The thing to consider is, these could easily end up based at DFW. Better pay rates would make it a very attractive option.

Not the Master Base. Can't have that!

Baradium
07-09-2018, 06:42 AM
Do you have any site you support your comment regarding "the widest coach seats in the industry"?

Seatguru.com -

CS100 - 17"
AA's fleet -
737-800 16.9-17.3
MAX 16.6-17.8
321 17-18" standard

E190 - 16.5"

E190-E2 - 18.3" (Embraer site)


The CS100 has 20% middle seats with 17" width.
The E190-E2 has no middle seats with 18.3" width.

C series has 18" Aisle and window seats with a 19" middle seats from this reference.

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/cs300-comfortable-economy/


In fact, if I go to the site that you referenced (seatguru.com) I see that the only CS100 listed for short-haul economy shows a 18.5" seat width, which is even wider than the site I found with a quick search and wider than anything you posted otherwise.

Sliceback
07-09-2018, 08:12 AM
Group I CA pay should be equal to or greater than Group IV FO pay.

Group I FO pay should be indexed at 80% of Group II FO pay.

The end. If they paid that amount, people would actually want to stay on the airplane.

JB pays the 190 at 90% of their n/b pay.

G1 CA pay has to be at 84% of G2 CA pay to match G4 FO pay.

Your 80% isn't enough.

Sliceback
07-09-2018, 08:30 AM
C series has 18" Aisle and window seats with a 19" middle seats from this reference.

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/04/cs300-comfortable-economy/


In fact, if I go to the site that you referenced (seatguru.com) I see that the only CS100 listed for short-haul economy shows a 18.5" seat width, which is even wider than the site I found with a quick search and wider than anything you posted otherwise.

What airline had the 18" seats? SWISS page is showing 17".

Your pointsguy article mentioned that the wider middle seat (19") has been marketed but rejected by SWISS. Article says the other seats are 18". No comment on other airlines.

wikipedia says 18.5" inch seats.

I'd still take an 18.3" seat, with no middle seat, over an 18" or 18.5" seat.

nAAtive
07-09-2018, 08:33 AM
JB pays the 190 at 90% of their n/b pay.

G1 CA pay has to be at 84% of G2 CA pay to match G4 FO pay.

Your 80% isn't enough.

Pretty sure the new TA split that ratio a lot more.


Is the 190 the same as a 175 on the Inside? Iíve never seen one up close. But I like the 175 and how it has no middle seat.

flydc
07-09-2018, 09:20 AM
190/195E2 has those awful yokes that constantly hit your knees.

C-Series FTW.

PRS Guitars
07-09-2018, 09:55 AM
Is the 190 the same as a 175 on the Inside? Iíve never seen one up close. But I like the 175 and how it has no middle seat.

Yes, the same, just longer with more seats, cockpit is slightly larger, but the same avionics, overhead, etc.

mainlineAF
07-09-2018, 10:45 AM
Pretty sure the new TA split that ratio a lot more.





Is the 190 the same as a 175 on the Inside? Iíve never seen one up close. But I like the 175 and how it has no middle seat.



Nice work [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

mainlineAF
07-09-2018, 10:49 AM
Who cares about the airplanes AA buys? Theyíre going to buy whatever they want anyway.

We should be talking about important issues like disability. Yal know if you get hurt you use up your sick time and vacation then short term disability pays $50 a WEEK for a year. Slap in the face.

Everyone here needs to sign up for Pilot Mutual Aid (PMA) from APA like yesterday. Pays 4K/mo after 60 days then lasts until you go out on LTD. You can sign up for it on alliedpilots all online in 5 mins.

saturn
07-09-2018, 11:03 AM
Delta's advantage is they paid almost nothing for their C series but were rumored to owe Bombardier a royalty anytime the aircraft is operated over 1000nm.

The fee is actually based on an average distance used. No fee for singular flights going over the limit. Example, 2x500nm + 2x1500nm + 2x1000nm = avg 1000nm. You get the point. And I believe it may be higher than 1000nm, it hasn't been officially stated what the mileage is. Nor the frame of time used to calculate the "average" stage length.

Name User
07-09-2018, 11:06 AM
Personally my feeling is all of this is academic. The company will not be purchasing 100 seat aircraft. They are pretty steadfast on reducing types and configurations and are moving toward a 737/A320 domestic fleet. Between now and end of 2020 we will be reducing total fleet count by roughly 15 airframes.

My personal hope is we eventually become an all Airbus domestic carrier. The 737's are insanely hot in back in the summer and the seats are brutal with horrid bracing that forces one to sit slightly sideways in the seat. The Airbus is just so much of a better plane from a passenger perspective. Oh, and the table.

Name User
07-09-2018, 11:07 AM
The fee is actually based on an average distance used. No fee for singular flights going over the limit. Example, 2x500nm + 2x1500nm + 2x1000nm = avg 1000nm. You get the point. And I believe it may be higher than 1000nm, it hasn't been officially stated what the mileage is. Nor the frame of time used to calculate the "average" stage length.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Baradium
07-09-2018, 02:57 PM
What airline had the 18" seats? SWISS page is showing 17".

Your pointsguy article mentioned that the wider middle seat (19") has been marketed but rejected by SWISS. Article says the other seats are 18". No comment on other airlines.

wikipedia says 18.5" inch seats.

I'd still take an 18.3" seat, with no middle seat, over an 18" or 18.5" seat.

From seatguru.com which is where you said you got the information before. 17" seats doesn't really sound right if the cabin is wide enough for 18.5" with what is supposed to already be a large aisle.

SWISS (https://seatguru.com/airlines/Swiss_Airlines/information.php)Bombardier CS100 (https://seatguru.com/airlines/Swiss_Airlines/Swiss_Airlines_Bombardier_CS100.php) 30-32 18.5 NoneNoneNoneNoStandard

The 18.5 is for seat width.

I am not familiar enough with Swiss's CS100s but the DL seats are going to have the wider middle with power and IFE.

aa73
07-09-2018, 03:57 PM
My personal hope is we eventually become an all Airbus domestic carrier.

:eek: Lord, please, no.... keep me out of that euro contraption! Give me my cramped, loud cockpit that has an old school yoke, throttles, and doesn’t require a computer to fly it any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I DH on 737s and Buses all the time and it’s all the same to me. Oh except for that Airbus God awful screeching hydraulic pump and the overhead bins rattling like a death trap on landing... otherwise who gives a hoot about the back? I just fly it.

Old School Boeing til I retire! ;)

Arado 234
07-09-2018, 05:05 PM
:eek: Lord, please, no.... keep me out of that euro contraption! Give me my cramped, loud cockpit that has an old school yoke, throttles, and doesnít require a computer to fly it any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I DH on 737s and Buses all the time and itís all the same to me. Oh except for that Airbus God awful screeching hydraulic pump and the overhead bins rattling like a death trap on landing... otherwise who gives a hoot about the back? I just fly it.

Old School Boeing til I retire! ;)

What's the deal regarding your crewbag on the 737? Mine never fits underneath the frame of the absent second jumpseat and I get told half the time by the f/a that I am not allowed to put it in the forward closet. Yet theirs is in there.

AA73, it's not that bad. All the CA I have flown with that have experience on the 737 (both LUS and LAA) told me that they would never go back voluntarily. Space is luxury.

Hueypilot
07-09-2018, 05:05 PM
JB pays the 190 at 90% of their n/b pay.

G1 CA pay has to be at 84% of G2 CA pay to match G4 FO pay.

Your 80% isn't enough.

JB has some different dynamics than AA. We should certain ask for as much as we can get away with...but we also need to set some boundaries too. Any CA position should pay more than FOs. And indexing Gp I FO pay to Gp II FO pay prevents idiotic things like getting paid year one pay for two years, and minimizing the effect of pay raises.

aa73
07-09-2018, 05:20 PM
What's the deal regarding your crewbag on the 737? Mine never fits underneath the frame of the absent second jumpseat and I get told half the time by the f/a that I am not allowed to put it in the forward closet. Yet theirs is in there.

AA73, it's not that bad. All the CA I have flown with that have experience on the 737 (both LUS and LAA) told me that they would never go back voluntarily. Space is luxury.

Oh I have no doubt it’s more spacious, and that is nice. I am just an old school kinda guy... if I had the chance to go back to the -80 I’d go in a heart beat and stay til I retired. I love the fact that the 737 still has the old 707 nose, yoke, throttle quadrant and trim wheels.. yes, the very stuff that everyone makes fun of, I absolutely love! It is just a really fun plane to fly because even though it has advanced avionics, it still retains enough of the old 707 to keep me in a permanently nostalgic state of mind. Love it.

Regarding the space under the old 2nd j/s, it will take all the way up to a standard size rollaboard... if you have the extra large size it won’t fit. What you gotta do is pull out the CA’s bag half way, then wrestle yours on top of it, then slide both of them in together. (Insert inappropriate joke here ;-) The forward closet accommodates the F/Os rollaboard plus the F/As (even though in their manual it says they are supposed to use First Class overhead bins.) that is why sometimes there is no space left.

Dolphinflyer
07-09-2018, 05:34 PM
J.
Try that POS on for size when you're over 6'5".

You won't have room to do those bodybuilding selfie flex poses like you do now. :D And then there is trying look out at the beautiful sky through those window slits off a Panzer Tank. :D

I'm out when my preferred trips are solidified with the combining of divisions.

Good to see you at DEN a few weeks ago, hope all is well.

EMBFlyer
07-09-2018, 05:56 PM
:eek: Lord, please, no.... keep me out of that euro contraption! Give me my cramped, loud cockpit that has an old school yoke, throttles, and doesnít require a computer to fly it any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I DH on 737s and Buses all the time and itís all the same to me. Oh except for that Airbus God awful screeching hydraulic pump and the overhead bins rattling like a death trap on landing... otherwise who gives a hoot about the back? I just fly it.

Old School Boeing til I retire! ;)

Preach it brother!

EMBFlyer
07-09-2018, 06:00 PM
What's the deal regarding your crewbag on the 737? Mine never fits underneath the frame of the absent second jumpseat and I get told half the time by the f/a that I am not allowed to put it in the forward closet. Yet theirs is in there.

AA73, it's not that bad. All the CA I have flown with that have experience on the 737 (both LUS and LAA) told me that they would never go back voluntarily. Space is luxury.

FOs have a space in the closet for bags. As a jumpseater, I've never had a problem storing my bag on top of the Captain's under the 2nd jumpseat, if needed. Sometimes, you have to reach into the closet and grab it from the bottom to help get it in, but it works.

The funny thing is, the FAs aren't supposed to put their bags in the closet. They have designated areas in the cabin for their bags. The closet is not one of them.

I've flown both the 737 and the Airbus. I like the 737 better. Having flown the 757 previously, I'm extremely comfortable with the box. The VNAV isn't a mystery and it's a simple airplane to operate. It hand-flies like a dream!

aa73
07-09-2018, 07:45 PM
J.
Try that POS on for size when you're over 6'5".

You won't have room to do those bodybuilding selfie flex poses like you do now. :D And then there is trying look out at the beautiful sky through those window slits off a Panzer Tank. :D

I'm out when my preferred trips are solidified with the combining of divisions.

Good to see you at DEN a few weeks ago, hope all is well.

Great seein ya too!
no matter man... I love my ride... I know I’m in the minority. Have fun on the dark side!

Dolphinflyer
07-09-2018, 09:48 PM
Great seein ya too!
no matter man... I love my ride... I know Iím in the minority. Have fun on the dark side!

Or as I told people when I did the xmas upgrade, it's a lot more fun driving your beat up Corolla with the misaligned front temporary tire than driving around in the right front seat of Dad's Cadillac.:D

Arado 234
07-10-2018, 04:17 AM
I guess the Bombardier CS series is called the Airbus 220 now.

redbaronahp
07-10-2018, 06:17 AM
I guess the Bombardier CS series is called the Airbus 220 now.

Yeah, I just saw the announcement. Airbus 220-100 and 220-300.

Sliceback
07-10-2018, 08:41 AM
JB has some different dynamics than AA. We should certain ask for as much as we can get away with...but we also need to set some boundaries too. Any CA position should pay more than FOs. And indexing Gp I FO pay to Gp II FO pay prevents idiotic things like getting paid year one pay for two years, and minimizing the effect of pay raises.

DL pays the 717 at 90%. It's roughly the same passenger count as the CS/A220 but is ligher with only 1400 nm range vs the CS/A220's 3,100 nm range.

If DL can pay it at 90% we can too.

nimslow
07-10-2018, 09:18 AM
Great seein ya too!
no matter man... I love my ride... I know Iím in the minority. Have fun on the dark side!

Iíve flown them both, the bus was ok, but pushing a year now, Iím still having a blast flying the 73. But Iíd also go back to the -80 with a smile on my face.

Frip
07-10-2018, 12:20 PM
hand-flies like a dream!

Really?

I have never heard anyone say that about the NG/800.

That's a question, not an argument.

Hueypilot
07-10-2018, 01:02 PM
Looks like JB ordered the C-Series (er A220). AA would be smart to replace 190 and some 319 flying with this...and even some 175 routes.

redbaronahp
07-10-2018, 01:39 PM
Looks like JB ordered the C-Series (er A220). AA would be smart to replace 190 and some 319 flying with this...and even some 175 routes.

Sure did!
http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2018/jul/10/airbus-wins-jetblue-order-for-its-newly-rebranded-a220/

MidLife
07-10-2018, 01:40 PM
190/195E2 has those awful yokes that constantly hit your knees.

C-Series FTW.

Yeah - but I feel like I am riding my pimped out HOG with my arms on the monkey bars!! Embraer FTW :):)

havick206
07-10-2018, 04:18 PM
Looks like JB ordered the C-Series (er A220). AA would be smart to replace 190 and some 319 flying with this...and even some 175 routes.

Thereís also the saying never buy the A model of anything in aviation.

Sliceback
07-10-2018, 04:35 PM
Really?

I have never heard anyone say that about the NG/800.

That's a question, not an argument.

It's nice hand flying. The ailerons are fairly light and the plane is fairly responsive. Lands nice, etc.

The AB cockpit is so much more comfortable, and quieter, that it takes first place. And the AB is not a bad hand flying airplane either, especially with the auto-thrust off.

Frip
07-10-2018, 05:01 PM
👍👍

Thanks Slice

Choice to make sometime in the next year or so 😁

450knotOffice
07-10-2018, 05:02 PM
Personally, I never thought the 737 flew all that nicely, to be honest. I hand fly the Airbus more than just about any captain I ever fly with, and I feel it flies fine. It certainly lands more easily and predictably than most jets Iíve flown, even in a crosswind.

In the end, I prefer the Bus, but Iíd fly either one given the right circumstance.

Iím just waiting for that 787 FO slot to present itself soon. Looking forward to that.

EMBFlyer
07-10-2018, 07:09 PM
Really?

I have never heard anyone say that about the NG/800.

That's a question, not an argument.

Yep!

Very light on the controls. For as big of an airplane it is, it handles like a light airplane.

Previous jet was the 757. As much as a performer as it was, it flew like a truck. My biggest hurdle in the sim was over-controlling the 737 because I was used to the 757.

It can be a bit tricky to land, but with just a shade over 200 hours in it, I've had pretty good luck so far.

redbaronahp
07-10-2018, 07:57 PM
Thereís also the saying never buy the A model of anything in aviation.

Swiss has been flying C series aircraft for 2 years and Iíve heard the reliability and efficiency has been amazing. No major problems like with the launch of the 787. I think it has proven itself to be a good aircraft. Whether itíll be a good fit for AA to replace the 190ís and 88ís is above all our pay grades. With Airbus branding and ownership I wouldnít be surprised if they sell hundreds of A220ís in the next few months. Iíd love to fly it with better group one rates or as a group 2 aircraft.

atpcliff
07-11-2018, 12:07 PM
Personally my feeling is all of this is academic. The company will not be purchasing 100 seat aircraft.

The 220-100, when set up for DAL, with economy, Delta Comfort, and Biz/1st class seating zones, seats 110. The 220-300, when set up the same way, seats 130. There has been a lot of talk of stretching the larger "C" series to 150+ seats...

In my opinion, the C/A-220 is the best narrow body aircraft for passengers and pilots. At DAL, the E-175 is currently the best narrow body plane, as rated by their passengers. I think the "C" will be better.

I hope AA does buy the A-220. I hate flying as a pax in the 737...AA has WAY too many of them!

fireman0174
07-11-2018, 01:01 PM
The 220-100, when set up for DAL, with economy, Delta Comfort, and Biz/1st class seating zones, seats 110. The 220-300, when set up the same way, seats 130. There has been a lot of talk of stretching the larger "C" series to 150+ seats...

In my opinion, the C/A-220 is the best narrow body aircraft for passengers and pilots. At DAL, the E-175 is currently the best narrow body plane, as rated by their passengers. I think the "C" will be better.

I hope AA does buy the A-220. I hate flying as a pax in the 737...AA has WAY too many of them!
The Bombardier A-220 brochure shows 160 seats - 28-29 pitch.

Name User
07-11-2018, 06:40 PM
The Bombardier A-220 brochure shows 160 seats - 28-29 pitch.

That's the Spirit config.

EMBFlyer
07-12-2018, 02:26 AM
That's the Spirit config.

Yeah, but which airline is going to 172 seats in all it's 737s?

FlyingSlowly
07-12-2018, 05:12 AM
That's the Spirit config.

Yeah, but guess what?

Unless you're taller than 6' 2", it's not really an issue. I'll take the extra seat width any day. The C-Series (A220) at 28.5" will be so much more comfortable than a 737 with 34" inches of pitch.

Not touching shoulders and elbows with the passengers next to you...priceless.

flyinawa
07-12-2018, 06:49 AM
Iíve flown them both, the bus was ok, but pushing a year now, Iím still having a blast flying the 73. But Iíd also go back to the -80 with a smile on my face.

Itís probably because you think the 737 captain on your flights has been awesome, on the Airbus... not so much.

nimslow
07-12-2018, 08:30 AM
Itís probably because you think the 737 captain on your flights has been awesome, on the Airbus... not so much.

You may be onto something there. Since Iíve been on the 73, I have been flying with the greatest captain ever.:D

Name User
07-12-2018, 10:38 AM
Yeah, but guess what?

Unless you're taller than 6' 2", it's not really an issue. I'll take the extra seat width any day. The C-Series (A220) at 28.5" will be so much more comfortable than a 737 with 34" inches of pitch.

Not touching shoulders and elbows with the passengers next to you...priceless.

Yeah that is huge, our 737 max is what, 16.7"? Ridiculous. Plus you have to sit sideways because the bracing is all screwed up. Our A320's have up to 18".

atpcliff
07-12-2018, 10:47 AM
Swiss has been flying C series aircraft for 2 years and Iíve heard the reliability and efficiency has been amazing.

airBaltic also has both of the "C" series, and just ordered a bunch more of the CS-300. One of my FOs flew on them, and said it was great. I flew on Lufthansa, but should have changed it to airBaltic so I could try it out myself...we fly into Riga, Latvia pretty often, which is airBaltic's hub.

flyinawa
07-12-2018, 09:44 PM
You may be onto something there. Since Iíve been on the 73, I have been flying with the greatest captain ever.:D

Itís too bad thatís too long to fit on a license plate frame. It would look SUPER cool in the employee parking lot. ;)

Al Czervik
07-13-2018, 07:14 AM
Itís too bad thatís too long to fit on a license plate frame. It would look SUPER cool in the employee parking lot. ;)

I was thinking (737 SUX) would be a cool plate.

flyinawa
07-13-2018, 11:38 AM
I was thinking (737 SUX) would be a cool plate.

Stop whatever you are doing and go turn in your AA ID. Everyone knows Airbuses are flown by 30 year olds who wear backpacks and slim fit pants and preflight at night using their iPhone flashlight.

Lol.

Cheddar
07-13-2018, 01:24 PM
...and preflight at night using their iPhone flashlight.



Lol.


I mightíve done that once. It was more dusk and mainly to check the brakes and wheel wells.

Back packs - No - But I do wish I was 30 and that I could fit into skinny pants!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

flydc
07-13-2018, 05:56 PM
Stop whatever you are doing and go turn in your AA ID. Everyone knows Airbuses are flown by 30 year olds who wear backpacks and slim fit pants and preflight at night using their iPhone flashlight.

Lol.

As opposed to uniforms that fit like trash bags, black sneakers, and a 20yr old flight kit that looks like it got hit by a freight train? 😂

Arado 234
07-13-2018, 07:56 PM
As opposed to uniforms that fit like trash bags, black sneakers, and a 20yr old flight kit that looks like it got hit by a freight train? 😂


What about a 20 year old flight attendant girlfriend?

jcountry
07-14-2018, 12:00 AM
As opposed to uniforms that fit like trash bags, black sneakers, and a 20yr old flight kit that looks like it got hit by a freight train? 😂

Donít forget the fact that those New Balance shoes have Velcro instead of laces....

#keepingitreal

Floobs
07-14-2018, 01:32 PM
Why did you title this like there is a form order?

redbaronahp
07-14-2018, 05:11 PM
Why did you title this like there is a form order?

The very first post in the topic is a question. It is posed as a question, not as a statement.

Now that Airbus has completed the C series transaction which makes the C Series aircraft part of the Airbus family, what are your thoughts on AA ordering them to replace the S80ís and 190s? Farborough is coming up in 2 weeks and aircraft manufacturers are scrambling to make deals to announce at the Airshow.

I am curious what people think of a possible order coming at the Farnborough air show or anytime in the near future. JetBlue placed an order for 60 A220ís following the announcement of the name change of the C series. Delta has an order for 75 C series, now A220ís. There are now 2 major US airlines with orders, so I wouldnít be surprised if others followed. Airbus has a salesperson specifically for the A220, which will eventually go away in the future as orders increase by several hundred. Other Airbus aircraft donít have a salesperson dedicated to one aircraft type so that alone shows how hard Airbus is going to push the sales of the aircraft in the near future.

Floobs
07-14-2018, 10:47 PM
I sure hope so. The strategy seems to be to try and get old 319s which so far hasn't worked.

Name User
07-15-2018, 01:55 AM
I sure hope so. The strategy seems to be to try and get old 319s which so far hasn't worked.

United bought a bunch from China recently.

I'm a big fan of used older planes but at the prices the C is selling for how much sense does it make? Used Airbii are in high demand and going for a premium.

We have 125 A319s. We need to replace roughly 20 E190 and 45 MD80s. So combined in the seating class we have almost 200 aircraft. Sell the 319s to the highest bidder and buy cheap new C series to fill the void. Boom done.

It's too bad Airbus wasn't involved from the beginning. A common type with the A320 series would've made it a huge seller.

mainlineAF
07-15-2018, 03:07 AM
United bought a bunch from China recently.



I'm a big fan of used older planes but at the prices the C is selling for how much sense does it make? Used Airbii are in high demand and going for a premium.



We have 125 A319s. We need to replace roughly 20 E190 and 45 MD80s. So combined in the seating class we have almost 200 aircraft. Sell the 319s to the highest bidder and buy cheap new C series to fill the void. Boom done.



It's too bad Airbus wasn't involved from the beginning. A common type with the A320 series would've made it a huge seller.



Iíd imagine the costs involved in selling the 319s and then spoiling up a whole new fleet type negate any cost savings from the c series.

I donít care what we fly but i do think itís smart that AA is finally minimizing the different fleet types.

Cheddar
07-15-2018, 08:21 AM
In a perfect world, weíd have 3 types -
Gp 1 - A220 series
Gp 2/3 - A320 series ( including 319ís for high/hot airports)
Gp 4 - B787 series (8-10)

But itís not a perfect world and we have existing commitments, and different needs for different missions. The 787-10 doesnít come close to the 773ER, the 787-8 is too much airplane for a 75/76 replacement and the A319 is too much airplane for an E2/A220-100.

The painful truth is that we need another category airplane. If it were me Iíd strongly consider bringing the E-175s on property and ordering the E2 for a 100-130 seat fleet (ASSUMING a common type rating). Although the maintenance would not be cost effective (I donít believe thereís a large commonality b/w 175s and the newer E2 series) at least you would have an economy of scale with crewing it. We are probably a decade away from that possibility, and if we need a new jet Iíd rather have the A220 series with all the benefits of the existing Airbus relationships. Plus I think itís a much better airplane!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Name User
07-15-2018, 08:27 AM
The 175 E2 doesn't even seat 100 let alone 130.

The CS300 is bigger than the 195-E2.

TallFlyer
07-15-2018, 02:35 PM
In a perfect world, weíd have 3 types -
Gp 1 - A220 series
Gp 2/3 - A320 series ( including 319ís for high/hot airports)
Gp 4 - B787 series (8-10)

But itís not a perfect world and we have existing commitments, and different needs for different missions. The 787-10 doesnít come close to the 773ER, the 787-8 is too much airplane for a 75/76 replacement and the A319 is too much airplane for an E2/A220-100.

The painful truth is that we need another category airplane. If it were me Iíd strongly consider bringing the E-175s on property and ordering the E2 for a 100-130 seat fleet (ASSUMING a common type rating). Although the maintenance would not be cost effective (I donít believe thereís a large commonality b/w 175s and the newer E2 series) at least you would have an economy of scale with crewing it. We are probably a decade away from that possibility, and if we need a new jet Iíd rather have the A220 series with all the benefits of the existing Airbus relationships. Plus I think itís a much better airplane!



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While weíre dreaming, how about a 797 too?

And staple the 76 seaters. ;)

aa73
07-15-2018, 03:07 PM
In a perfect world, we’d have 3 types -
Gp 1 - A220 series
Gp 2/3 - A320 series ( including 319’s for high/hot airports)
Gp 4 - B787 series (8-10)



The 737 absolutely blows away the crappy Euro Plastic Barbie jets on performance, that’s why we are not strictly a Euro Plastic Barbie jet airline (thank God.) Sorry but your “perfect world” is but an opinion, probably influenced by Euro Plastic Barbie telepathic waves emitted by the barking dog/screeching monkey otherwise known as the PTU (Passenger Tormenting Unit)

737 forever baby! Old Skool :-)

Cheddar
07-15-2018, 05:26 PM
Or... 737 variants - whatever floats your boat. I meant as far as a crew/MX commonality in our 140-200 narrow-bodies. I mean if your into claustrophobia and hearing loss[emoji6]






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Cheddar
07-15-2018, 05:31 PM
The 737 absolutely blows away the crappy Euro Plastic Barbie jets on performance, thatís why we are not strictly a Euro Plastic Barbie jet airline (thank God.) Sorry but your ďperfect worldĒ is but an opinion, probably influenced by Euro Plastic Barbie telepathic waves emitted by the barking dog/screeching monkey otherwise known as the PTU (Passenger Tormenting Unit)

737 forever baby! Old Skool :-)



I have to admit - Iíve been off the bus for two months and to the jr widebody Boeing. I forgot how much I like flying! The Euro Plastic Barbie telepathic waves emitted by the barking dog/screeching monkey are wearing off. Man am I hungover.


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aa73
07-15-2018, 06:30 PM
:D ;) all in good fun Cheddar

atpcliff
07-15-2018, 07:28 PM
The 737 absolutely blows away the crappy Euro Plastic Barbie jets on performance, thatís why we are not strictly a Euro Plastic Barbie jet airline (thank God.) Sorry but your ďperfect worldĒ is but an opinion, probably influenced by Euro Plastic Barbie telepathic waves emitted by the barking dog/screeching monkey otherwise known as the PTU (Passenger Tormenting Unit)

737 forever baby! Old Skool :-)

As a passenger, I hate the 737. When I ask the pilots at my airline about flying on the 737 (as pax) they hate it too. I STRONGLY prefer the small Airbus fleet, and I'm sure that the Bombardier "C" will be even better.
With AA decreasing the seat pitch, and installing that crap tiny bathroom on all their 737s, along with longer and longer 737s, that take longer and longer to board/deboard, I really hate the 737s, and try and avoid them when flying. That is one of the reason that I prefer Delta (they have a lot lower % of 737s), and I will go on UAL to avoid an AA/DAL/UAL/Alaska 737 (ps-I never fly on SWA, JetBlue, Allegient, Frontier or Spirit on a paid ticket).

I hope that AA buys the A-220 series, and a lot of them!

450knotOffice
07-15-2018, 08:32 PM
The 737 absolutely blows away the crappy Euro Plastic Barbie jets on performance, thatís why we are not strictly a Euro Plastic Barbie jet airline (thank God.) Sorry but your ďperfect worldĒ is but an opinion, probably influenced by Euro Plastic Barbie telepathic waves emitted by the barking dog/screeching monkey otherwise known as the PTU (Passenger Tormenting Unit)

737 forever baby! Old Skool :-)

lol! J, the 319ís with ďsharkletsĒ ABSOLUTELY perform.
(Unlike our 321ís, which remind me of the old saying about 727ís, total hours, and time in climb... ;) )

Hey, let me know if you ever get a layover at SNA. Iíll pick you up and weíll grab some beers on the coast.

Sliceback
07-16-2018, 05:58 AM
319's perform similar to the 757. But a much stiffer ride due to the wing.

321's = 727's but slower and much quieter and more comfortable.

aa73
07-16-2018, 10:10 AM
lol! J, the 319ís with ďsharkletsĒ ABSOLUTELY perform.
(Unlike our 321ís, which remind me of the old saying about 727ís, total hours, and time in climb... ;) )

Hey, let me know if you ever get a layover at SNA. Iíll pick you up and weíll grab some beers on the coast.

Deal, brother!

redbaronahp
07-17-2018, 09:08 AM
Itís being reported that JetBlue got up to a 72% discount of the A220. It seems like Airbus is looking to cut a deal to sell some planes. Youíd think AA might be interested in such a good deal, but Iím not paid enough to see the big picture.

https://business.financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/jetblue-got-a-discount-of-up-to-72-on-its-airbus-a220-order-moodys/amp

Name User
07-17-2018, 01:18 PM
It’s being reported that JetBlue got up to a 72% discount of the A220. It seems like Airbus is looking to cut a deal to sell some planes. You’d think AA might be interested in such a good deal, but I’m not paid enough to see the big picture.

https://business.financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/jetblue-got-a-discount-of-up-to-72-on-its-airbus-a220-order-moodys/amp

Maybe they want to stop Embrarer's program in its tracks.

AA has already doubled down on large RJs and the 320 series. Not a big deal as long as we can get some. I like the plane. But Spirit paid $14m a pop for their off lease 319's, with the brand new lowest CASM plane going for ~$22m a pop with a fixed cost airframe so it can be kept 30+ years vs the Airbus at 20. Makes your monthly fixed cost $61k each. That's pretty freaking low, an A319 lease is around $250k for a new airframe. And that doesn't even include the fuel savings.

It seems AA was about four years too early to refleet.



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