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View Full Version : Why I'm voting Yes


Sun Tzu
07-01-2018, 09:42 PM
Trump’s trade war policies are going to push us into a recession and this will be the best deal we will see for quite a while.
If this TA gets voted down, the company will be able to withdraw their offer and then we are negotiating in a much worse economic climate. To draw out talks and go back to the drawing board for just marginal improvements is foolish, in my opinion.

Not only could the company lower their monetary stance, but the following will also happen if we drag this out:

We will still have a healthcare plan that’s outside of a CBA. Yes, this plan still stinks, but I would rather have a lousy health care plan within the CBA than outside of it during an economic downturn.
We will not have scope codified in a CBA.
We will not have 15% 401k match.


I'm taking the deal. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

Here are some facts:


Oil is up 45% since Trump took office.
Iowa pork producers are on track to lose over $500 million this year.
Harley Davidson is moving production from Kansas and Wisconsin to overseas factories to get around tariff retaliations imposed by other nations. Polaris (Indian motorcycles, snow mobiles, etc) is following suit.
Next up, Trump is going to go full-blown trade war in the auto sector. (Brace for impact)
Bourbon distillers are readying for 25% tariffs slapped onto their products.
Kentucky dairy farmers are selling out and closing down.
Wisconsin cheese makers aren’t sure how they’re going to make up the lost sales.


The economic recovery and bull market which followed the 2008 meltdown was stretched and getting really long in the tooth by any measure. Inflation is picking up and interest rates have started to creep up. Then Trump decides on a full-blown trade war, which nobody wins.

The deal on the table is good enough, for now. I'm taking the money. Trump is clueless and vindictive and we are all gonna pay dearly for it. This is just my opinion and obviously not everybody will see things this way. Everybody needs to make their own informed decision. I’m voting Yes.


In Unity,


Sun Tzu

PS I’m not on blue pilots but if anyone wants to copy and paste it there, feel free.

PPS No, I’m not a “company plant" who just joined this board to get this so-so deal to pass. I’m just a dork who has way too much time on his hands and spends it reading about cheese farmers in Wisconsin.


PasserOGas
07-01-2018, 10:38 PM
Hey!

Wow, all that sounds scary. Knowing the future must be quite a burden.

I will vote yes as well if you can answer one question for me.

When will we ever have this much leverage again? Will the company still need a new fleet plan after the great atomic war/robot takeover?

Sun Tzu
07-01-2018, 10:53 PM
Everyone should make their own decision based on thoughtful research and analysis. I've come to my conclusion and posted my reasoning behind it.


schwa
07-02-2018, 12:27 AM
Though I agree that there's some economic risk in dragging this out further, and that a recession is due, you've probably lost just about everyone at "Trump". Why make it political? In the short-term, the economy is an animal all itself. The use of past, current or future presidents to explain it is nothing but propaganda.

And continue with 67 more hamster wheel posts...

Southerner
07-02-2018, 03:56 AM
Though I agree that there's some economic risk in dragging this out further, and that a recession is due, you've probably lost just about everyone at "Trump". Why make it political? In the short-term, the economy is an animal all itself. The use of past, current or future presidents to explain it is nothing but propaganda.

And continue with 67 more hamster wheel posts...

I don't think he is making it political. He's stating facts, and Trump happens to be the president. The future is quite uncertain in the face of all of these tariffs, etc. That's not good for markets or the economy.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 04:00 AM
Hey!

Wow, all that sounds scary. Knowing the future must be quite a burden.

I will vote yes as well if you can answer one question for me.

When will we ever have this much leverage again? Will the company still need a new fleet plan after the great atomic war/robot takeover?

We HAD leverage, and it got us a pretty good deal. If we vote this down, we will no longer have leverage, and it will like be 12-18 months before we see another deal. If the economy takes a nose-dive during that time, our leverage becomes even weaker. So I think there is something to his perspective.

Is it industry leading in all categories? No, but that wasn't ever going to happen. That's not how any of this works.

hilltopflyer
07-02-2018, 04:25 AM
We will still have leverage form the outside. This pilot group wonít have any unless it gets voted down overwhelmingly. But from the outside you still have the downgrade, the fleet plan and a few other things the company needs to plan for. The 2019 balance sheet has to be done in a few months and they need to have the orders on there for 2020. There is still quite a bit of pressure.

BeatNavy
07-02-2018, 04:42 AM
We HAD leverage, and it got us a pretty good deal. If we vote this down, we will no longer have leverage, and it will like be 12-18 months before we see another deal. If the economy takes a nose-dive during that time, our leverage becomes even weaker. So I think there is something to his perspective.

Is it industry leading in all categories? No, but that wasn't ever going to happen. That's not how any of this works.

You serious south? No leverage? I know you lanyardless guys have some comprehension issues, so letís rehash what leverage we have, and what leverage we lost:

What we have:
-Wall Street downgrade isnít going anywhere
-Jaime Baker and friends...
-Operation thatís in the toilet with people still not helping out (except guys like you) bc they are unhappy with this TA. This TA wonít completely fix it when it passes, bc a large number were burned and expected market rate
-fleet review really needs a pilot contract to be complete and aircraft ordered, or at least flown
-economy and pilot contract landscape are still going up...by Jan 1st we will be even further behind our peers (hint: thats leverage)
-if this is voted down, that shows we are collectively not willing to work for less and accept a lagging contract. (another hint: thatís leverage)
-unity: some unity is lost due to the divisiveness this has caused....but fear not. We all want the same thing (well most of us), and that is to be compensated in line with our peers. We are united in that way. If 50.01% of us vote this down, more of us are united demanding more than not. Thatís a good thing. Lanyardless guys like you have no unity anyway and donít listen to the union (thanks for that again by the way).

What we lost: summer. Who cares? Winter is right around the corner. I had pairing changes on all trips except 2 between January and May. 2 pairings were normal. The rest had B-H behind them. Our operation is so effed we donít need a heavy travel season to cause an irop or other operational issues where pilots can help out.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 04:47 AM
You serious south? No leverage? I know you lanyardless guys have some comprehension issues, so letís rehash what leverage we have, and what leverage we lost:

What we have:
-Wall Street downgrade isnít going anywhere
-Jaime Baker and friends...
-Operation thatís in the toilet with people still not helping out (except guys like you) bc they are unhappy with this TA. This TA wonít completely fix it when it passes, bc a large number were burned and expected market rate
-fleet review really needs a pilot contract to be complete and aircraft ordered, or at least flown
-economy and pilot contract landscape are still going up...by Jan 1st we will be even further behind our peers (hint: thats leverage)
-if this is voted down, that shows we are collectively not willing to work for less and accept a lagging contract. (another hint: thatís leverage)
-unity: some unity is lost due to the divisiveness this has caused....but fear not. We all want the same thing (well most of us), and that is to be compensated in line with our peers. We are united in that way. If 50.01% of us vote this down, more of us are united demanding more than not. Thatís a good thing. Lanyardless guys like you have no unity anyway and donít listen to the union (thanks for that again by the way).

What we lost: summer. Who cares? Winter is right around the corner. I had pairing changes on all trips except 2 between January and May. 2 pairings were normal. The rest had B-H behind them. Our operation is so effed we donít need a heavy travel season to cause an irop or other operational issues where pilots can help out.

No unity? I'm not the one on here trashing our elected representatives who brought us a market rate deal. I have tremendous respect for them. Not choosing to wear a lanyard is MY choice, and has no relationship to my support for the union. YOU interpret it that way, and that's fine. It is absolutely your right to be incorrect.

BeatNavy
07-02-2018, 04:55 AM
No unity? I'm not the one on here trashing our elected representatives who brought us a market rate deal. I have tremendous respect for them. Not choosing to wear a lanyard is MY choice, and has no relationship to my support for the union. YOU interpret it that way, and that's fine. It is absolutely your right to be incorrect.

I have been highlighting the pitfalls of this TA...not the NC, who I happen to engage with and fully support. They got the best they could with what they had to work with (lanyardless/no-unity people here, and JB management).

Youíre right. Itís your choice to not listen to the one thing our union told us shows unity to the company and their union busting firm F&H...the lanyard.

hyperboy
07-02-2018, 07:05 AM
Hey!

Wow, all that sounds scary. Knowing the future must be quite a burden.

I will vote yes as well if you can answer one question for me.

When will we ever have this much leverage again? Will the company still need a new fleet plan after the great atomic war/robot takeover?

You gonna back my family financially if things go south in your scenario? Thought so I like gambling...alot!....not that much!

mikenike
07-02-2018, 07:54 AM
Trump’s trade war policies are going to push us into a recession and this will be the best deal we will see for quite a while.

What if you're wrong.

What if we are entering a period of economic prosperity that we have not seen for literally decades.

Because that's what I believe, and that's why I'm voting no.

Mark your calendar for this time next year. By that time the economic expansion will be obvious and undeniable, and this pilot group will be kicking itself for ratifying a substandard Agreement.

Turn off the TV and look around you. This period of time is unprecedented. It won't occur again. Recognize the opportunities and grab them with both hands.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 07:56 AM
Hey!

Wow, all that sounds scary. Knowing the future must be quite a burden.

I will vote yes as well if you can answer one question for me.

When will we ever have this much leverage again? Will the company still need a new fleet plan after the great atomic war/robot takeover?


You're wasting your time, POG. There are too many chicken sh1t pilots in this group to stand up for what they deserve. They're just happy to be here, and are in a hurry to get something to vote Yes on so they can move on from this scary process.

hyperboy
07-02-2018, 08:05 AM
You're wasting your time, POG. There are too many chicken sh1t pilots in this group to stand up for what they deserve. They're just happy to be here, and are in a hurry to get something to vote Yes on so they can move on from this scary process.

So much smarter and knows whats best for us all huh?

embraerjetpilot
07-02-2018, 08:09 AM
There are already thousands of Americans who have lost, or whom are losing their jobs and businesses because of his moronic isolation.

Hoovernomics did not work in the 20s and they won't work now. Sooner or later, its all gonna crumble.

Im already paying more in taxes, and now Im gonna take a pay cut with this contract...but I probably will vote yes because of scope and because this economy will not continue in the direction it is in. In fact, the stock market has NOT improved since the tax cuts. There really is no logical explanation as to why the stock market did so well after the election other than they were happy that none of the rules would be enforced.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 08:15 AM
So much smarter and knows whats best for us all huh?


What I know Hyper is that there are too many "Just happy to be here", "It's better than what we had/where I came from", "Gee, what happens if the economy collapses" cowards at this company for there to have enough unity for us to stick together to get a deal we really deserve.


The company knows this. They know they can offer a below average contract to this pilot group and a majority will gobble it up like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

CaptCoolHand
07-02-2018, 08:24 AM
What I know Hyper is that there are too many "Just happy to be here", "It's better than what we had/where I came from", "Gee, what happens if the economy collapses" cowards at this company for there to have enough unity for us to stick together to get a deal we really deserve.


The company knows this. They know they can offer a below average contract to this pilot group and a majority will gobble it up like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

The company knows this because almost every RSA was answered. The "other" jobs still got done. SOP was not followed and safety was not a top priority.

If you were doing as our union had asked we could have had more leverage. If you did any of those things above since Jan. 1st. you were working against this contract and have no room to complain about whats in it. Vote yes or no, but every mess cleaned up by a pilot was less and less leverage earned. Don't cry to me about it needs to be better when you were pulling for the other team to your own benefit.

Not directed at you Bunker, just in general.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 08:28 AM
The company knows this because almost every RSA was answered. The "other" jobs still got done. SOP was not followed and safety was not a top priority.

If you were doing as our union had asked we could have had more leverage. If you did any of those things above since Jan. 1st. you were working against this contract and have no room to complain about whats in it. Vote yes or no, but every mess cleaned up by a pilot was less and less leverage earned. Don't cry to me about it needs to be better when you were pulling for the other team to your own benefit.

Not directed at you Bunker, just in general.


Not taking it personally I know what you meant. I think towards the end, just before we agreed to the AIP, we were headed in that exact direction. We're never going to get 100% compliance, but we had enough where it was making an impact. Plus we were headed into the busiest part of the year where our SOP flying would have crippled this company. We had the upper hand, or at least significant leverage for the first time in this entire process and I feel we let them off the mat. We left money on the table, I'm convinced of that.

CaptCoolHand
07-02-2018, 08:32 AM
There are already thousands of Americans who have lost, or whom are losing their jobs and businesses because of his moronic isolation.

Hoovernomics did not work in the 20s and they won't work now. Sooner or later, its all gonna crumble.

Im already paying more in taxes, and now Im gonna take a pay cut with this contract...but I probably will vote yes because of scope and because this economy will not continue in the direction it is in. In fact, the stock market has NOT improved since the tax cuts. There really is no logical explanation as to why the stock market did so well after the election other than they were happy that none of the rules would be enforced.

You stink.... Standard!

and those speed limits are just a suggestion.

oh and now the libs wanna enforce rules? come on man. get off bill mar and samantha B :D

O2pilot
07-02-2018, 08:34 AM
I don't think he is making it political. He's stating facts, and Trump happens to be the president. The future is quite uncertain in the face of all of these tariffs, etc. That's not good for markets or the economy.

The future is always ďuncertainĒ. Also a trade war would not good for the EU, Canada, or China. We have massive trade imbalances with those blocs that benefit them. We spend our money buying their goods. They refuse to buy ours, as they have massive tariffs already on US goods to protect their industries. Now its their turn and they donít like it.

CaptCoolHand
07-02-2018, 08:35 AM
Not taking it personally I know what you meant. I think towards the end, just before we agreed to the AIP, we were headed in that exact direction. We're never going to get 100% compliance, but we had enough where it was making an impact. Plus we were headed into the busiest part of the year where our SOP flying would have crippled this company. We had the upper hand, or at least significant leverage for the first time in this entire process and I feel we let them off the mat. We left money on the table, I'm convinced of that.

We may have, maybe not. All I know is we've all gotta make a call yes or no. The hard numbers are the hard numbers. I'm trying to quantify the extra time off and better QOL that I'll have. This isn't necessarily all about the W2.

CaptCoolHand
07-02-2018, 08:37 AM
The future is always ďuncertainĒ. Also a trade war would not good for the EU, Canada, or China. We have massive trade imbalances with those blocs that benefit them. We spend our money buying their goods. They refuse to buy ours, as they have massive tariffs already on US goods to protect their industries. Now its their turn and they donít like it.

WHAT! why would we want trade deals that benefit the USA? we should just pay for the rest of the worlds problems. Maybe Bart Roberts has it right? How's Lagos this time of year?

sarcasm, off... just in case that wasn't clear.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 08:56 AM
We may have, maybe not. All I know is we've all gotta make a call yes or no. The hard numbers are the hard numbers. I'm trying to quantify the extra time off and better QOL that I'll have. This isn't necessarily all about the W2.


True. It is what it is at this point. The decision is whether this is something you can stomach for the next 6-7 years or whether we're willing to fight to make this a contract we can be proud of.

N311JB
07-02-2018, 11:14 AM
The upcoming downturn shouldnít have any weight on your decisions. 2 easy things to keep in mind. If it does go south, half of us are furloughed anyway so we wonít have the chance to enjoy our TA. And second, you do realize every contract was thrown out in court in 2002. Nice try Shu.

dogpilot
07-02-2018, 11:23 AM
You gonna back my family financially if things go south in your scenario? Thought so I like gambling...alot!....not that much!
Never let fear mongers dictate these decisions, no one can or ever has predicted economic ups or downs with absolute certainty. Make the decision if this is good for you now, if not vote no. Fear factoring is childish, stop trying to instill fear into the equation. Is the deal that bad, that it canít stand on its own merits, but rather must rely on fear to sell it? Shameful. Good luck guys.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 11:44 AM
Never let fear mongers dictate these decisions, no one can or ever has predicted economic ups or downs with absolute certainty. Make the decision if this is good for you now, if not vote no. Fear factoring is childish, stop trying to instill fear into the equation. Is the deal that bad, that it canít stand on its own merits, but rather must rely on fear to sell it? Shameful. Good luck guys.

I don't think anyone is relying on fear. A calculus of risk vs reward should be part of the decision. Some are more risk tolerant than others. Someone who isn't risk tolerant isn't somehow a bad person or shameful for voting in accordance with their own needs, nor are they for sharing their perspective.

It is shameful to attack/ridicule other pilots for not voting how you think they should vote.

Mattio
07-02-2018, 11:57 AM
Isn't the unemployment rate hugely tied to airline success? Poor people don't buy airline tickets. Struggling businesses don't hire people, therefore the macrocosm of US business is much different than the OP suggested. The unemployment rate has steadily improved during Trump, as much as I disagree with a lot of the things he does. It's at it's lowest point since 2000.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 12:01 PM
I don't think anyone is relying on fear. A calculus of risk vs reward should be part of the decision. Some are more risk tolerant than others. Someone who isn't risk tolerant isn't somehow a bad person or shameful for voting in accordance with their own needs, nor are they for sharing their perspective.

It is shameful to attack/ridicule other pilots for not voting how you think they should vote.


Not true. Many people are taking into consideration what happens if the economy tanks tomorrow. That's fear, irrational fear. And it's even been propagated by many of the MEC members and several other top union officers.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 12:03 PM
Not true. Many people are taking into consideration what happens if the economy tanks tomorrow. That's fear, irrational fear. And it's even been propagated by many of the MEC members and several other top union officers.

It isn't irrational at all. If the economy tanks and we are still negotiating, our position will likely be worse. That absolutely should be considered.

The fact that you accept that risk is fine. Others do not accept that risk, which is fine also. But to deny that it exists as a risk at all is incorrect.

PasserOGas
07-02-2018, 12:07 PM
So, we should accept a sub standard contract now, when we have a choice and things are good. That way we won't get a substandard contract later?

Genius.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 12:11 PM
So, we should accept a sub standard contract now, when we have a choice and things are good. That way we won't get a substandard contract later?

Genius.

No. This contract isn't substandard. It's pretty much middle of the road. Some good, some less good, but overall middle of the road and far ahead of our current book.

If we end up negotiating in a downturn, we could end up with a deal worse than this one. It's an unknown. Some are willing to accept that risk, and some are not. For most people this likely isn't their major factor for yes/no, but if they are middle of the road on the deal, it's likely the thing that pushes them to yes. Make sense?

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 12:35 PM
It isn't irrational at all. If the economy tanks and we are still negotiating, our position will likely be worse. That absolutely should be considered.

The fact that you accept that risk is fine. Others do not accept that risk, which is fine also. But to deny that it exists as a risk at all is incorrect.


If you think there's a real chance the economy tanks before we get a TA2 and are using that fear as a major decision making factor in your vote, that is irrational. Hell, we could crash 2 or 3 planes in the next few months and JB could tank even worse.



Is the economy a factor? Sure. But the chance it tanks over the next year or so to the point it would negatively affect our next TA is extremely low. People use that point as an EXCUSE to support their Yes vote.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 12:38 PM
No. This contract isn't substandard. It's pretty much middle of the road. Some good, some less good, but overall middle of the road and far ahead of our current book.

If we end up negotiating in a downturn, we could end up with a deal worse than this one. It's an unknown. Some are willing to accept that risk, and some are not. For most people this likely isn't their major factor for yes/no, but if they are middle of the road on the deal, it's likely the thing that pushes them to yes. Make sense?


It's not middle of the road. It's at the bottom end overall in relation to our peers. And it gets worse every year of this contract. But keep justifying settling for less. That's what we've all come to expect from you.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 12:51 PM
It's not middle of the road. It's at the bottom end overall in relation to our peers. And it gets worse every year of this contract. But keep justifying settling for less. That's what we've all come to expect from you.

See. Personal attacks. Someone feels differently than you, and instead of seeing the other side, you attack.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 01:09 PM
See. Personal attacks. Someone feels differently than you, and instead of seeing the other side, you attack.


It's not an attack to realize early on and to point out the fact that you were going to cave to anything thrown in front of you.

PropPiedmont
07-02-2018, 01:33 PM
In Unity,


Sun Tzu

PS Iím not on blue pilots but if anyone wants to copy and paste it there, feel free.

PPS No, Iím not a ďcompany plant" who just joined this board to get this so-so deal to pass. Iím just a dork who has way too much time on his hands and spends it reading about cheese farmers in Wisconsin.

Why donít you just get onto Blue Pilots? Are you not a JetBlue pilot?

Southerner
07-02-2018, 01:39 PM
It's not an attack to realize early on and to point out the fact that you were going to cave to anything thrown in front of you.

I don't feel that it's a bad TA. If you feel that it is, vote no. I was leaning no on the AIP bullet points. But the final language changed my mind. But you know what? I don't have to justify myself to you.

say again
07-02-2018, 01:40 PM
Why donít you just get onto Blue Pilots? Are you not a JetBlue pilot?

I gave up trying after a couple of years. Invalid employee #. From what I hear,I'm better off no joining anyway. :D:D

Bozo the pilot
07-02-2018, 01:50 PM
I gave up trying after a couple of years. Invalid employee #. From what I hear,I'm better off no joining anyway. :D:D

Ive read things on BP that these eyes cant unsee.
Its a horrible, awful car wreck over there.
And I LOVE it. :D

say again
07-02-2018, 02:27 PM
Ive read things on BP that these eyes cant unsee.
Its a horrible, awful car wreck over there.
And I LOVE it. :D

I can only imagine. You can try and not look at the car wreck, but human nature will have you staring at it. I hear the stories of pure entertainment from some that I fly with. :D Maybe one day...

jtrain609
07-02-2018, 03:06 PM
It's not middle of the road. It's at the bottom end overall in relation to our peers. And it gets worse every year of this contract. But keep justifying settling for less. That's what we've all come to expect from you.

You're not calling Southerner a liar, you're calling the NC liars.

Attacking the union is unacceptable.

BunkerF16
07-02-2018, 03:33 PM
You're not calling Southerner a liar, you're calling the NC liars.

Attacking the union is unacceptable.


F Off dude. I'm not attacking anyone in the union. I'm a volunteer and have worked really hard towards getting this pilot group unified and keeping everyone informed. I appreciate everything the NC guys did and they should never buy a beer again. They got us as far as they could and should be commended for it.


My comments were made for Southerner and Southerner alone.

Southerner
07-02-2018, 03:39 PM
F Off dude. I'm not attacking anyone in the union. I'm a volunteer and have worked really hard towards getting this pilot group unified and keeping everyone informed. I appreciate everything the NC guys did and they should never buy a beer again. They got us as far as they could and should be commended for it.


My comments were made for Southerner and Southerner alone.

Do you know what cognitive dissonance is? You sure should... lol

queue
07-03-2018, 09:54 AM
Trumpís trade war policies are going to push us into a recession and this will be the best deal we will see for quite a while.
If this TA gets voted down, the company will be able to withdraw their offer and then we are negotiating in a much worse economic climate. To draw out talks and go back to the drawing board for just marginal improvements is foolish, in my opinion.

Not only could the company lower their monetary stance, but the following will also happen if we drag this out:

We will still have a healthcare plan thatís outside of a CBA. Yes, this plan still stinks, but I would rather have a lousy health care plan within the CBA than outside of it during an economic downturn.
We will not have scope codified in a CBA.
We will not have 15% 401k match.


I'm taking the deal. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

Here are some facts:


Oil is up 45% since Trump took office.
Iowa pork producers are on track to lose over $500 million this year.
Harley Davidson is moving production from Kansas and Wisconsin to overseas factories to get around tariff retaliations imposed by other nations. Polaris (Indian motorcycles, snow mobiles, etc) is following suit.
Next up, Trump is going to go full-blown trade war in the auto sector. (Brace for impact)
Bourbon distillers are readying for 25% tariffs slapped onto their products.
Kentucky dairy farmers are selling out and closing down.
Wisconsin cheese makers arenít sure how theyíre going to make up the lost sales.


The economic recovery and bull market which followed the 2008 meltdown was stretched and getting really long in the tooth by any measure. Inflation is picking up and interest rates have started to creep up. Then Trump decides on a full-blown trade war, which nobody wins.

The deal on the table is good enough, for now. I'm taking the money. Trump is clueless and vindictive and we are all gonna pay dearly for it. This is just my opinion and obviously not everybody will see things this way. Everybody needs to make their own informed decision. Iím voting Yes.


In Unity,


Sun Tzu

PS Iím not on blue pilots but if anyone wants to copy and paste it there, feel free.

PPS No, Iím not a ďcompany plant" who just joined this board to get this so-so deal to pass. Iím just a dork who has way too much time on his hands and spends it reading about cheese farmers in Wisconsin.


You are a company plant and someone who benefits handsomly from special status that the rest of us don't enjoy. You are also making arguments based on pure emotion and pseudo-statistics that are just speculative. You make more noise than most people but that doesn't mean you're correct about anything. In fact, you've been wrong about many things you've said.



This TA is full of legal traps (e.g. the Dependability Policy is now officially a contract element) and substandard pay.



There is no harm in voting NO and fixing a few things in this TA to get a better TA that is actually industry rate. This TA still falls short of industry unless you consider yourself part of Cubana or Great Lakes.


People like you are betting on people's ignorance of the process in order to achieve YOUR goals. The truth is that we don't have to settle for less.


The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 09:58 AM
Though I agree that there's some economic risk in dragging this out further, and that a recession is due, you've probably lost just about everyone at "Trump". Why make it political? In the short-term, the economy is an animal all itself. The use of past, current or future presidents to explain it is nothing but propaganda.

And continue with 67 more hamster wheel posts...


Not to mention, virtually every economist has shown that despite whatever three letter contraction they put behind their names, no one can read the future. The stock market and the market are in general a stochastic process that a simple economist multivariable equation can't easily describe. Larry the Cable Guy is just as qualified to speculate about the economy.



You are trying to scare people into voting Yes because you are a company plant. That's why you block me, because you know I'm right and you can't entertain my opposing ideas.



What we need to do is Vote NO on this contract, then Vote YES when it gets rewritten with a few adjustments. Right now we are settling for the first girl we ever meet.







The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 10:00 AM
We HAD leverage, and it got us a pretty good deal. If we vote this down, we will no longer have leverage, and it will like be 12-18 months before we see another deal. If the economy takes a nose-dive during that time, our leverage becomes even weaker. So I think there is something to his perspective.

Is it industry leading in all categories? No, but that wasn't ever going to happen. That's not how any of this works.


Pure speculation. You just want people to accept a substandard contract because you are a company plant.



We've seen BJ do this with the FA union too... remember the fake "FA" website they set up, which looked incredibly professional? It doesn't cost much to pay someone like Southerner with special treatment or looking the other way when he needs it.





The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 10:10 AM
What if you're wrong.

What if we are entering a period of economic prosperity that we have not seen for literally decades.

Because that's what I believe, and that's why I'm voting no.

Mark your calendar for this time next year. By that time the economic expansion will be obvious and undeniable, and this pilot group will be kicking itself for ratifying a substandard Agreement.

Turn off the TV and look around you. This period of time is unprecedented. It won't occur again. Recognize the opportunities and grab them with both hands.


I *believe* you are correct.


But I *know* that what is happening now is unprecedented (in a good way). No one can predict the future particularly with an unprecedented trajectory. We KNOW that analysists have been consistently wrong. We KNOW the media is simply a tool of political parties and thus they tell you what to think. People who know HOW to think aren't buying any fear-mongering, like what Southerner is blabbing about. The truth is that Trump, like him or not, is re-plumbing the economy to give the USA the equal footing it has lost over the last 40 years. E.U. countries and China steal from the USA by imposing super high tariffs on our exports while we have little or NO tariffs on imports. When Americans are allowed to compete on equal grounds (e.g. no slave labor from China or government subsidized companies in E.U.), we kick a$$. I'm extremely optimistic that we can Vote NO then renegotiate TA 2.0 with some adjustments to truly make this an industry rate contract. Right now it's substandard and legally dangerous (e.g. the official legitimization of the Dependability Policy and outsourcing to various BJ policies).



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 10:14 AM
So much smarter and knows whats best for us all huh?


HB, don't you do more stuff than line pilots for the company?







The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 10:21 AM
It isn't irrational at all. If the economy tanks and we are still negotiating, our position will likely be worse. That absolutely should be considered.

The fact that you accept that risk is fine. Others do not accept that risk, which is fine also. But to deny that it exists as a risk at all is incorrect.


Considered and rejected being on the grounds of being pure speculation without factual basis. No one can read the future, except maybe Southerner. The economic plumbing is being redone to put this country on equal footing with the leeches of the world (e.g. the E.U., China). They take huge tariffs on our exports. They manipulate the currency (China). They use slave labor (China - FoxConn). And they subsidize their corporations through military ownership (China) and government handouts (E.U.). If the USA gets to compete fairly again, we will dominate and our negotiating posture will only get better and better. Never underestimate the American worker!









The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

say again
07-03-2018, 10:28 AM
This message is hidden because queue is on your ignore list.

6 of these in a row! :p:p:p

queue
07-03-2018, 10:34 AM
You're not calling Southerner a liar, you're calling the NC liars.

Attacking the union is unacceptable.


What is union elected servants sell you out? Are you saying that it never happens elsewhere? You know, there are plenty of examples.


You should consider the logic of Voting NO now, refining the contract, then Vote YES. There's no reason to accept substandard offerings. This is part of the game of negotiation. For all you YES voters, just watch a few episodes of Pawn Stars to learn bargaining 101. There's also literally thousands of books on the subject. No one says Yes the first time, particularly with all the serious deficiencies of TA 1.0. We can renegotiate a few things to get a vastly superior TA 2.0. Unity is more than just wearing a lanyard, it means that you have the intellectual fortitude not to accept table scraps.


Also, read the Railway Labor Act. You'll see that the entire negotiating paradigm is VOLUNTARY and is not prescribed by law. The law lets us challenge proposals and even our own union if they deliver substandard results. We don't need a coup, we just need to Vote NO, renegotiate, then get a bigger better TA 2.0.





The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 10:41 AM
No. This contract isn't substandard. It's pretty much middle of the road. Some good, some less good, but overall middle of the road and far ahead of our current book.

If we end up negotiating in a downturn, we could end up with a deal worse than this one. It's an unknown. Some are willing to accept that risk, and some are not. For most people this likely isn't their major factor for yes/no, but if they are middle of the road on the deal, it's likely the thing that pushes them to yes. Make sense?


There are some glaringly dangerous things in this contract. Why don't you read the sections that outsource to already controversial BJ policies. This contract puts into legal language the Dependability Policy which still doesn't draw lines... it basically says you are always guilty. Read the part about company directed medical evaluations and the lack of protection for medical records. It is grossly negligently written and doesn't even mention HIPAA-style protections. What if BJ misplaces records or accidentally hits REPLY ALL? What if their company payroll doctor is getting secret kickbacks to give scrutiny to pilots with medical issues, such as several guys here who have cancer? You wouldn't stand a chance ever proving anything in court because the contract doesn't give you any real protections or ability to scrutinize the process. BJ has no business keeping ANY medical records beyond "qualified" or "disqualified". You know all these things have happened before in virtually every industry. This contract opens the door for abuse and errors without our ability to truly fight back and defend our certificate.





The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
07-03-2018, 12:44 PM
2 more!

lol

Bozo the pilot
07-03-2018, 12:53 PM
2 more!

lol

Wait.. what I miss? Oh yea...:D
Phew.

queue
07-03-2018, 02:07 PM
Wait.. what I miss? Oh yea...:D
Phew.


It works out better to talk through you while pointing out that you have to ignore people you can't control.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
07-03-2018, 02:28 PM
Wait.. what I miss? Oh yea...:D
Phew.

Queue is Barney. What an rediculous excuse for a human. Go away, non-member...

queue
07-03-2018, 02:37 PM
It works out better to talk through you while pointing out that you have to ignore people you can't control.

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
07-03-2018, 03:12 PM
Queue is Barney. What an rediculous excuse for a human. Go away, non-member...

Finkle is Einhorn; Einhorn is Finkle. :D

Southerner
07-03-2018, 04:34 PM
Finkle is Einhorn; Einhorn is Finkle. :D

Something like that. Haha

Cmdrls
07-03-2018, 09:11 PM
Queue is Barney. What an rediculous excuse for a human. Go away, non-member...

Wait a second...stop the music! Queue is Barney? So what you are saying is that he has multiple personality disorder? I guess I was right about his mental well-being. Thatís why he is so damn scared of the jb doc

queue
07-03-2018, 10:25 PM
Wait a second...stop the music! Queue is Barney? So what you are saying is that he has multiple personality disorder? I guess I was right about his mental well-being. Thatís why he is so damn scared of the jb doc

I think you got the wrong one. I'm not the one with Stockholm Syndrome or am a leftist authoritarian liberal.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Slaphappy
07-03-2018, 11:52 PM
Trumpís trade war policies are going to push us into a recession and this will be the best deal we will see for quite a while.
If this TA gets voted down, the company will be able to withdraw their offer and then we are negotiating in a much worse economic climate. To draw out talks and go back to the drawing board for just marginal improvements is foolish, in my opinion.

Not only could the company lower their monetary stance, but the following will also happen if we drag this out:

We will still have a healthcare plan thatís outside of a CBA. Yes, this plan still stinks, but I would rather have a lousy health care plan within the CBA than outside of it during an economic downturn.
We will not have scope codified in a CBA.
We will not have 15% 401k match.


I'm taking the deal. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.

Here are some facts:


Oil is up 45% since Trump took office.
Iowa pork producers are on track to lose over $500 million this year.
Harley Davidson is moving production from Kansas and Wisconsin to overseas factories to get around tariff retaliations imposed by other nations. Polaris (Indian motorcycles, snow mobiles, etc) is following suit.
Next up, Trump is going to go full-blown trade war in the auto sector. (Brace for impact)
Bourbon distillers are readying for 25% tariffs slapped onto their products.
Kentucky dairy farmers are selling out and closing down.
Wisconsin cheese makers arenít sure how theyíre going to make up the lost sales.


The economic recovery and bull market which followed the 2008 meltdown was stretched and getting really long in the tooth by any measure. Inflation is picking up and interest rates have started to creep up. Then Trump decides on a full-blown trade war, which nobody wins.

The deal on the table is good enough, for now. I'm taking the money. Trump is clueless and vindictive and we are all gonna pay dearly for it. This is just my opinion and obviously not everybody will see things this way. Everybody needs to make their own informed decision. Iím voting Yes.


In Unity,


Sun Tzu

PS Iím not on blue pilots but if anyone wants to copy and paste it there, feel free.

PPS No, Iím not a ďcompany plant" who just joined this board to get this so-so deal to pass. Iím just a dork who has way too much time on his hands and spends it reading about cheese farmers in Wisconsin.

The economic data says differently. A few tarrifs on cheese and bourbon are not going to crash the economy.

Slaphappy
07-03-2018, 11:58 PM
There are already thousands of Americans who have lost, or whom are losing their jobs and businesses because of his moronic isolation..

Im already paying more in taxes, and now Im gonna take a pay cut with this contract...but I probably will vote yes because of scope and because this economy will not continue in the direction it is in. In fact, the stock market has NOT improved since the tax cuts. There really is no logical explanation as to why the stock market did so well after the election other than they were happy that none of the rules would be enforced.

We have the lowest unemployment on decades, Waters are actually rising for once and 80% of tax payers got a cut.

You also should do some research. Gdp projections have gone from 3.5% to 5%.

We are entering the best economy in decades.

CaptCoolHand
07-04-2018, 02:33 AM
We have the lowest unemployment on decades, Waters are actually rising for once and 80% of tax payers got a cut.

You also should do some research. Gdp projections have gone from 3.5% to 5%.

We are entering the best economy in decades.

The economy canít be getting better?!
Businesses around the country are closing up shop. Itís like the depression all over again.

Come on letís put on our rich white guy hats and go poke the kids in the cage that we stole from their parents! I bet they cry.

Again... just in case. Sarcasm off.

CaptCoolHand
07-04-2018, 02:34 AM
Finkle is Einhorn; Einhorn is Finkle. :D

Your gun is digging into my hip...

Sun Tzu
07-04-2018, 03:49 AM
The economic data says differently. A few tarrifs on cheese and bourbon are not going to crash the economy.

It's already beginning to affect the airline sector.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-big-3-airlines-to-suffer-from-growing-trade-dispute-analyst-
says-2018-07-03

"The possibility that the current trade dispute between the U.S. and its global partners could become something bigger is problematic for the industryís top line given how closely correlated it is to imports and exports of goods and services,Ē Linenberg wrote in a note to clients. ďFurthermore, the growing trade dispute may cause U.S. companies to reconsider their [capital expenditure] and employment plans, which would adversely impact corporate travel.Ē

Trump is clueless and vindictive. If he expands this trade war into the auto sector: Brace for impact.

I'm voting Yes. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. But that is just my opinion and everyone should weigh the pros and cons of everything and make their own informed decision.


-Sun Tzu

AKcharger
07-04-2018, 05:15 AM
http://http://www.golfian.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Sad-Maine-Coon-Cat-Picture.jpg

Flytolive
07-04-2018, 05:20 AM
Gdp projections have gone from 3.5% to 5%.Where in the world did you get that idea?

https://data.oecd.org/gdp/real-gdp-forecast.htm

The tax cuts will keep things humming for a while and will likely exacerbate the inevitable downturn with a soaring debt to GDP ratio. Nobody knows when or how bad the next recession will be.

Flytolive
07-04-2018, 05:38 AM
But I *know* that what is happening now is unprecedented (in a good way). No one can predict the futureThat is hilarious.

The truth is that Trump, like him or not, is[B] re-plumbing the economy to give the USA the equal footing it has lost over the last 40 years. E.U. countries and China steal from the USA by imposing super high tariffs on our exports while we have little or NO tariffs on imports. When Americans are allowed to compete on equal grounds (e.g. no slave labor from China or government subsidized companies in E.U.), we kick a$$. A few points to insert a little reality. Tariffs are not the only forms of trade protectionism. Google U.S. farm subsidies or Boeing protectionism for some basic trade education.

Also, China doesn't need to worry about domestic politics. The U.S. President does and Trump ****ed away all his leverage against China by scuttling TPP and alienating our former allies. Heck we have a trade surplus with Canada. His 'easy' trade war is already costing him votes as people slowly figure out that reality is a bit more complicated than they were led to believe.

P.S. I love your disclaimer at the bottom of your posts. It is as silly as it is legally useless, but I am sure at least one person is impressed by it.

queue
07-04-2018, 02:11 PM
It's already beginning to affect the airline sector.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-big-3-airlines-to-suffer-from-growing-trade-dispute-analyst-
says-2018-07-03 (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-big-3-airlines-to-suffer-from-growing-trade-dispute-analyst-<br /> says-2018-07-03)

"The possibility that the current trade dispute between the U.S. and its global partners could become something bigger is problematic for the industryís top line given how closely correlated it is to imports and exports of goods and services,Ē Linenberg wrote in a note to clients. ďFurthermore, the growing trade dispute may cause U.S. companies to reconsider their [capital expenditure] and employment plans, which would adversely impact corporate travel.Ē

Trump is clueless and vindictive. If he expands this trade war into the auto sector: Brace for impact.

I'm voting Yes. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. But that is just my opinion and everyone should weigh the pros and cons of everything and make their own informed decision.


-Sun Tzu




You mean that you place your faith in all those analysts and the Democrat's media echo chamber to tell you the truth?


Weren't they wrong about... EVERYTHING??


Like Trump or not, the plumbing is being fixed on the country's leaking frame. We can't subsidize the world and we shouldn't. If they want to have 40% tariffs on our goods, why shouldn't we reciprocate and make it even? Why is fairness not allowed to be applied to the USA?



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-04-2018, 02:19 PM
That is hilarious.

A few points to insert a little reality. Tariffs are not the only forms of trade protectionism. Google U.S. farm subsidies or Boeing protectionism for some basic trade education.

Also, China doesn't need to worry about domestic politics. The U.S. President does and Trump ****ed away all his leverage against China by scuttling TPP and alienating our former allies. Heck we have a trade surplus with Canada. His 'easy' trade war is already costing him votes as people slowly figure out that reality is a bit more complicated than they were led to believe.

P.S. I love your disclaimer at the bottom of your posts. It is as silly as it is legally useless, but I am sure at least one person is impressed by it.


Ok here's some reality. TPP was grossly unfair to the USA. Again it makes us pay for the ineptitudes of other governments, particularly the socialistic ones that always implode on themselves. Furthermore, you must have completely missed the most controversial chapter of the TPP that was kept top secret until it got leaked... the part about intellectual property. The IP provisions of the TPP would have allowed Chinese style censorship here in the USA, which is what the establishment wants. Go read the TPP sometime... then tell me how I'm wrong.


At some point someone has to give the country the bad tasting medicine. Previous socialistic policies have created a recipe for disaster, much like every other socialistic country in the world. Have you checked the utter disasters called the E.U., Cypress, Italy, Venezuela, Mexico? If the trade inequalities don't get fixed, we would eventually get to the point those other countries got to. Trade is good, unfair trade is bad. Why should we accept unfair trade policies? Why are you complaining about making the playing field equal?



p.s. it's been legally tested - I doubt you can claim that.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Sun Tzu
07-04-2018, 03:57 PM
Cypress is a tree.

Sun Tzu
07-04-2018, 04:27 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/us-pork-producers-brace-for-new-pork-tariffs-from-china-mexico.html


'We are the casualty:' US pig farmers brace for second round of pork tariffs from China, Mexico

"We put a halt on all investment, not just because we will be losing money, but because we don't know if growing in the U.S. is the right move if we won't be an exporting country," said Ken Maschhoff, chairman of Maschhoff Family Foods and co-owner of the nation's largest family-owned pork producer.

Maschhoff said the farm industry has been "asked to be good patriots. We have been. But I don't want to be the patriot who dies at the end of the war. If we go out of business, it's tough to look at my kids and the 550 farm families that look us into the eye and our 1,400 employees."

And speaking of going out of business:

70% of BMW's output from their factory in Spartanburg, South Carolina is exported to overseas markets. If Trump expands this trade war into the auto sector, those jobs get shifted to plants outside of the US and the customers will still buy those BMWs. But, those 9,000 good-paying jobs in Spartanburg disappear.

Trump is clueless and vindictive. If he expands this trade war into the auto sector: Brace for impact. Trump country will be hurt the most.

I'm voting to take the deal that's on the table. I'm voting Yes.

queue
07-04-2018, 04:27 PM
Cypress is a tree.


It's a beautiful place too...



Cyprus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus)
With Greece on the brink, let's remember what happened when Cyprus' banks shut down (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-amid-fears-of-greek-controls-cyprus-shows-restrictions-are-bearable-2015-6)


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Kyrenia_01-2017_img11_Castle_exterior.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-04-2018, 04:30 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/04/us-pork-producers-brace-for-new-pork-tariffs-from-china-mexico.html


'We are the casualty:' US pig farmers brace for second round of pork tariffs from China, Mexico

"We put a halt on all investment, not just because we will be losing money, but because we don't know if growing in the U.S. is the right move if we won't be an exporting country," said Ken Maschhoff, chairman of Maschhoff Family Foods and co-owner of the nation's largest family-owned pork producer.

Maschhoff said the farm industry has been "asked to be good patriots. We have been. But I don't want to be the patriot who dies at the end of the war. If we go out of business, it's tough to look at my kids and the 550 farm families that look us into the eye and our 1,400 employees."

And speaking of going out of business:

70% of BMW's output from their factory in Spartanburg, South Carolina is exported to overseas markets. If Trump expands this trade war into the auto sector, those jobs get shifted to plants outside of the US and the customers will still buy those BMWs. But, those 9,000 good-paying jobs in Spartanburg disappear.

Trump is clueless and vindictive. If he expands this trade war into the auto sector: Brace for impact. Trump country will be hurt the most.

I'm voting to take the deal that's on the table. I'm voting Yes.


At some point you have to do triage and put a bandage on it to stop the bleeding... we can't subsidize the world at our expense. Medicine always tastes bad, but it sometimes keeps you from dying of infection.



I'm voting NO to TA 1.0, and looking forward to TA 2.0.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Sun Tzu
07-04-2018, 04:35 PM
I'm sure a lot of jetblue pilots find the socioeconomic situation of an island in the Mediterranean very relevant in their yes-or-no decision.

queue
07-04-2018, 05:21 PM
I'm sure a lot of jetblue pilots find the socioeconomic situation of an island in the Mediterranean very relevant in their yes-or-no decision.


Everything is connected. One grain of sand in Egypt affects things here in the USA. Right now the economy is strong and is getting stronger now that economic inequalities are being fixed. This means that we're in a record place of negotiation leverage after the slump caused by leftism influencing American politics. If the country goes back to the left, balance sheets will suffer and the economy will hide its money again and we will lose economic leverage. What happened in Cyprus is just one example of what could happen in a few years (in fact, business journals were speculating about it happening in the USA at the time!), leaving us with only a shadow of the bargaining leverage that we have now. It's a fact that airlines are making record profits, alongside record numbers of people traveling. If we don't capitalize now to get a good contract, we'll be stuck with an inferior contract for a looonnngggg time. TA 2.0



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Flytolive
07-04-2018, 05:22 PM
TPP was grossly unfair to the USA... the most controversial chapter of the TPP that was kept top secret until it got leaked...The IP provisions of the TPP would have allowed Chinese style censorship here in the USA...Top secret, huh? Let me guess, only Fox “News” found out about this secret provision that managed to circumvent the Constitution. Gotcha.

Everything is connected. One grain of sand in Egypt affects things here in the USA
E.U., Cypress, Italy, Venezuela, Mexico? If the trade inequalities don't get fixed, we would eventually get to the point those other countries got to.That is hilarious. You might want to look at the GDP of those countries compared to the U. S. Then you might look into an Economics 101 course.

queue
07-04-2018, 05:33 PM
Top secret, huh? Let me guess, only Fox “News” found out about this secret provision that managed to circumvent the Constitution. Gotcha.


That is hilarious. You might want to look at the GDP of those countries compared to the U. S. Then you might look into an Economics 101 course.


No... Fox News is part of the establishment. They stood to benefit from it. It came out in Wikileaks and also civil liberties lawyer organizations fought it. It allows corporations to have even more power to effectively censor free speech to an even greater extent than how Google, Facebook, Twitter, CNN, MSNBC, and even Fox put out fake news now. Perhaps you never heard of "shadow banning (http://www.ibtimes.com/what-shadow-banning-twitter-former-employees-say-it-exists-2640860)"?



https://www.eff.org/issues/tpp


And by the way, Obama and his friends in the UN *did* try to circumvent the U.S. Constitution.


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/15/un-arms-trade-treaty-gives-away-rights-of-american/

Fortunately the President can't just do whatever he wants; checks and balances stopped it, but the left will keep trying to dismantle the Constitution article by article with rationalizations.




I've taken economics 101. It didn't help anyone predict the current state of the economy, particularly for those with the letters P H D after their name. You can't always simplify complex scenarios into simple academic equations.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Slaphappy
07-04-2018, 11:05 PM
That is hilarious.

A few points to insert a little reality. Tariffs are not the only forms of trade protectionism. Google U.S. farm subsidies or Boeing protectionism for some basic trade education.

Also, China doesn't need to worry about domestic politics. The U.S. President does and Trump ****ed away all his leverage against China by scuttling TPP and alienating our former allies. Heck we have a trade surplus with Canada. His 'easy' trade war is already costing him votes as people slowly figure out that reality is a bit more complicated than they were led .

Is that why good approval rating keeps rising?

Slaphappy
07-04-2018, 11:09 PM
It's already beginning to affect the airline sector.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-big-3-airlines-to-suffer-from-growing-trade-dispute-analyst-
says-2018-07-03

"The possibility that the current trade dispute between the U.S. and its global partners could become something bigger is problematic for the industryís top line given how closely correlated it is to imports and exports of goods and services,Ē Linenberg wrote in a note to clients. ďFurthermore, the growing trade dispute may cause U.S. companies to reconsider their [capital expenditure] and employment plans, which would adversely impact corporate travel.Ē

Trump is clueless and vindictive. If he expands this trade war into the auto sector: Brace for impact.

I'm voting Yes. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. But that is just my opinion and everyone should weigh the pros and cons of everything and make their own informed decision.


-Sun Tzu

As said before a few opeds don't supercede economic data. The data disagrees, gdp projections have be revised upward past 4%. For the rest of the year. It's hardly a trade war when the retaliation is so week.

Flytolive
07-05-2018, 03:36 AM
The data disagrees, gdp projections have be revised upward past 4%. For the rest of the year. It's hardly a trade war when the retaliation is so week.At what 'data' are you looking? You must be looking at quarterly numbers that vary seasonally because no annual forecasts have the US GDP > 3% even with the exploding debt to GDP ratio.

https://data.oecd.org/gdp/real-gdp-forecast.htm

http://www.oecd.org/media/2016-1/Economic%20Outlook%202_v3_press.png

Bozo the pilot
07-05-2018, 06:18 AM
At what 'data' are you looking? You must be looking at quarterly numbers that vary seasonally because no annual forecasts have the US GDP > 3% even with the exploding debt to GDP ratio.

https://data.oecd.org/gdp/real-gdp-forecast.htm

http://www.oecd.org/media/2016-1/Economic%20Outlook%202_v3_press.png

I like charts with colors :D

benzoate
07-05-2018, 06:47 AM
I like charts with colors :D

I like big boobs. :cool:

CaptCoolHand
07-05-2018, 07:02 AM
I like big boobs. :cool:

poundmetoo

Slaphappy
07-05-2018, 10:22 AM
At what 'data' are you looking? You must be looking at quarterly numbers that vary seasonally because no annual forecasts have the US GDP > 3% even with the exploding debt to GDP ratio.

https://data.oecd.org/gdp/real-gdp-forecast.htm

http://www.oecd.org/media/2016-1/Economic%20Outlook%202_v3_press.png

Atlanta Fed GDP model forecasts 5.4% growth in the first quarter - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/atlanta-fed-gdp-now-forecasts-5-percent-growth-in-q1-2018-2)

The Federal reserve bank in Atlanta is forecasting 5.7% growth.

Slaphappy
07-05-2018, 10:22 AM
The labor department today said that there are more jobs than workers.

embraerjetpilot
07-05-2018, 10:33 AM
The labor department today said that there are more jobs than workers.

Sadly, most of them wonít feed and shelter a family of four

Flytolive
07-05-2018, 11:26 AM
The Federal reserve bank in Atlanta is forecasting 5.7% growth.First, the Atlanta Fed was forecasting 5.4% not 5.7% and it is not an annual rate, but for for Q1 2018. Guess what? That was last quarter and the it turned out to be 2.2%. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/second-reading-on-q1-2018-gdp.html

Your article was from February, and if you had actually read it you would have seen that the prediction was a complete outlier.

So, much like Trump you don't let the facts stand in the way of a good story. That is otherwise known as complete and utter BS, but nice try.

hilltopflyer
07-05-2018, 11:28 AM
Sadly, most of them wonít feed and shelter a family of four

Itís not minimums wage responsibility to feed a family of four. If people applied themselves they wouldnít have to have a minimum wage job when they had a family of four. I donít mind supplementing people who have the family of four and have a minimum wage job. At least they are trying to work for a living and not relying on the government.

Bozo the pilot
07-05-2018, 12:08 PM
Sadly, most of them wonít feed and shelter a family of four

How much you wanna pay for a burger?

Std Deviation
07-05-2018, 01:08 PM
How much you wanna pay for a burger?

The same can be said of getting rid of undocumented agricultural labor. How much you want to pay for an avocado, bottle of wine, tomato, etc.?
Or construction here in TX.

queue
07-05-2018, 01:13 PM
The same can be said of getting rid of undocumented agricultural labor. How much you want to pay for an avocado, bottle of wine, tomato, etc.?
Or construction here in TX.


Not specifically addressing your statement, but....


So by letting people in through negligence in not enforcing the LAW, aren't we creating a permanent underclass of disposable workers? How is this even moral to anyone? Isn't the whole purpose of LEGAL immigration to ensure those people are properly matriculated into the system so they pay taxes (all taxes) like you and me while getting a fair shot at every service their taxes pay for?

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

amcflyboy
07-05-2018, 01:55 PM
What I know Hyper is that there are too many "Just happy to be here", "It's better than what we had/where I came from", "Gee, what happens if the economy collapses" cowards at this company for there to have enough unity for us to stick together to get a deal we really deserve.


The company knows this. They know they can offer a below average contract to this pilot group and a majority will gobble it up like a hobo on a ham sandwich.

Bunker, we are here for one reason...because of NO UNITY. A lot of guys did not follow MEC guidance, and continued picking up RSAís, VDAís, etc. It is our fault that we are here, hence the crap leverage the NC had in negotiations.

Do you really think we will make substantial gains in TA2? Are you willing to wait two years minimum for a TA2 with MAYBE 10-15% gains? Do you really think we will get released at an impasse? Iíll give you a hint....look at Frontier. Asked to be released three times, denied all three times. Sitting there and accusing people of ďjust being happy to be hereĒ is a false dilemma, on your part. As soon as the Labor Dispute was over, guys started doing SET and stand up PAís, as if they missed it.

We are here because of us. Not because of JB or because of the MEC. Look at what we have to work with. This is negotiating. You win some and lose some. JB has also a right to keep the shareholders happy. Its business, not emotions.

Slaphappy
07-05-2018, 02:09 PM
The same can be said of getting rid of undocumented agricultural labor. How much you want to pay for an avocado, bottle of wine, tomato, etc.?
Or construction here in TX.

Probably not much more than what europe pays for things using legal labor instead of enabling Illegal immigration.

Slaphappy
07-05-2018, 02:10 PM
Sadly, most of them wonít feed and shelter a family of four

based on what?
It's funny on hearing the news that there are more jobs than workers and you somehow find a way to make it bad. You know that situation leads to higher wages right?

Slaphappy
07-05-2018, 02:13 PM
First, the Atlanta Fed was forecasting 5.4% not 5.7% and it is not an annual rate, but for for Q1 2018. Guess what? That was last quarter and the it turned out to be 2.2%. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/30/second-reading-on-q1-2018-gdp.html

Your article was from February, and if you had actually read it you would have seen that the prediction was a complete outlier.

So, much like Trump you don't let the facts stand in the way of a good story. That is otherwise known as complete and utter BS, but nice try.

False,

https://www.fxstreet.com/news/atlanta-fed-gdpnow-rises-to-47-from-4-for-q2-201805311512

The atlanta Fed has made these predictions for later in the year. Their q2 forcast is 4.7. We'll see how that plays out in the next few days.

They aren't the only ones.

Bozo the pilot
07-05-2018, 02:31 PM
The same can be said of getting rid of undocumented agricultural labor. How much you want to pay for an avocado, bottle of wine, tomato, etc.?
Or construction here in TX.

Whatever it costs to get them on the grid.

Flytolive
07-05-2018, 06:35 PM
FalseI agree the Atlanta Fed's GDPNow model estimates have been proven false. In Q1 2018 it predicted 5.4% GDP growth and the ended up being only 2.2%. Obviously, the model is worthless. The consensus estimate for 2018 is less than 3% even with soaring debt.

Bluedriver
07-06-2018, 05:01 AM
Itís not minimums wage responsibility to feed a family of four. If people applied themselves they wouldnít have to have a minimum wage job when they had a family of four. I donít mind supplementing people who have the family of four and have a minimum wage job. At least they are trying to work for a living and not relying on the government.

I think he is saying that just because there are jobs doesn't mean there are near enough GOOD jobs available.

Bluedriver
07-06-2018, 05:04 AM
How much you wanna pay for a burger?

How good is the burger? I do like burgers.

seekingblue
07-06-2018, 12:12 PM
I voted yes.


Right choice for me and my family.

hyperboy
07-07-2018, 04:51 PM
I think he is saying that just because there are jobs doesn't mean there are near enough GOOD jobs available.

I have always wondered what good jobs meant?

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 06:51 AM
I have always wondered what good jobs meant?

Jobs that are not at or near minimum wage with no benefits?

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 06:57 AM
Jobs that are not at or near minimum wage with no benefits?

Wait you mean jobs that require education and effort to obtain?

Jobs that require a skill set, Talent, knowledge, or more that the ability to walk, breathe and transfer a widget from spot A to spot B?

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:01 AM
Wait you mean jobs that require education and effort to obtain?

Jobs that require a skill set, Talent, knowledge, or more that the ability to walk, breathe and transfer a widget from spot A to spot B?

Who are you arguing with? I simply said just because there are lots of jobs available doesn't mean there are lots of good jobs available.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 08:20 AM
Not arguing with you lol.

Just a response to the MSNBC talking point.

If you have a job that canít support a family of four maybe you should have thought about your predicament before you decided to procreate?

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:24 AM
Not arguing with you lol.

Just a response to the MSNBC talking point.

If you have a job that canít support a family of four maybe you should have thought about your predicament before you decided to procreate?

Ok, but the vast majority of jobs available are low wage service industry or similar jobs. All 300 million of us could go to University to be Rocket Surgeons, but if the majority of the jobs are hotel, shopping mall and fast food, what good would that do?

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 08:33 AM
Ok, but the vast majority of jobs available are low wage service industry or similar jobs. All 300 million of us could go to University to be Rocket Surgeons, but if the majority of the jobs are hotel, shopping mall and fast food, what good would that do?

Well if youíre smart enough to do rocket surgery. Youíll probably be able to find work that can support your family. You adapt to the situation. Make hard choices. But Iím quite sure, there are no rocket surgery capable individuals making burger flipper wages.

If we went pilotless tomorrow why would you do? I know my family wouldnít starve.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:35 AM
Well if youíre smart enough to do rocket surgery. Youíll probably be able to find work that can support your family. You adapt to the situation. Make hard choices. But Iím quite sure, there are no rocket surgery capable individuals making burger flipper wages.

If we went pilotless tomorrow why would you do? I know my family wouldnít starve.

Great. So all 300 million get trained for other high paying jobs, but if the vast majority of the jobs AVAILABLE are low wage jobs, then what?

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 09:51 AM
Great. So all 300 million get trained for other high paying jobs, but if the vast majority of the jobs AVAILABLE are low wage jobs, then what?

gimme a break... :rolleyes:

when we run into that problem there won't be a need for jobs. because we'll all be living off of space credits. everyone will have a job and a purpose. it'll be magical.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 10:07 AM
gimme a break... :rolleyes:

when we run into that problem there won't be a need for jobs. because we'll all be living off of space credits. everyone will have a job and a purpose. it'll be magical.

You don't think there are many highly qualified and educated people right now under-employed? I do. Lots of people have good educations but are unable to find "good" jobs.

TransWorld
07-08-2018, 11:57 AM
You don't think there are many highly qualified and educated people right now under-employed? I do. Lots of people have good educations but are unable to find "good" jobs.

Like all those pilots with a 4 year degree, clean record, and 1500 hours flipping hamburgers at McD that cannot get a regional to give them the time of day? :D

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 03:01 PM
Like all those pilots with a 4 year degree, clean record, and 1500 hours flipping hamburgers at McD that cannot get a regional to give them the time of day? :D

Yeah those. Or maybe the millions of people outside aviation.

Bozo the pilot
07-09-2018, 06:16 AM
Yeah those. Or maybe the millions of people outside aviation.

You clearly have the cures to society's ills. Why do you waste your time on the likes of us BD? ;)

Bluedriver
07-09-2018, 06:22 AM
You clearly have the cures to society's ills. Why do you waste your time on the likes of us BD? ;)

It's funny someone as opinionated as you is calling out someone else for being opinionated.

I know, I know, vote YES.

Bozo the pilot
07-09-2018, 06:25 AM
It's funny someone as opinionated as you is calling out someone else for being opinionated.

I know, I know, vote YES.

I dont recall advising anyone on their vote, but operate as you will BD.
I am funny, I know. Thanks for that.:)

Slaphappy
07-10-2018, 06:51 PM
I agree the Atlanta Fed's GDPNow model estimates have been proven false. In Q1 2018 it predicted 5.4% GDP growth and the ended up being only 2.2%. Obviously, the model is worthless. The consensus estimate for 2018 is less than 3% even with soaring debt.

False again
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/15/goldman-sachs-model-now-points-to-4-percent-second-quarter-gdp-growth.html

Even Goldman sachs now think gdp will be above 4% for q2.

queue
07-11-2018, 06:25 PM
Ok, but the vast majority of jobs available are low wage service industry or similar jobs. All 300 million of us could go to University to be Rocket Surgeons, but if the majority of the jobs are hotel, shopping mall and fast food, what good would that do?

The limited mindset of the American leftist. How about this... get an education, go to trade school, self educate...

Then START YOUR OWN NON-SERVICE sector job. No one is stopping them. There are infinite possibilities. Why depend on others?

Those people who can't make money have only themselves to blame.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 06:05 AM
The limited mindset of the American leftist. How about this... get an education, go to trade school, self educate...

Then START YOUR OWN NON-SERVICE sector job. No one is stopping them. There are infinite possibilities. Why depend on others?

Those people who can't make money have only themselves to blame.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Yep, millions start a new business... What's the statistical success rate of a new business?

Whats the safety net you propose that will help with housing and food for their family for the very high percentage of start-ups that fail after they sink their life savings into their "swing for the fences"?

In our healthcare system, how is a new business startup going to provide/fund healthcare for his/her family on the individual market during the very lean start-up years?

Sorry, we are all entitled to our "opinion". But I think it's obvious that the majority of jobs available are not "good" jobs, no matter how educated the average American is and starting your own "start-up" is not a practical solution for the masses for a multitude of reasons.

Possible yes, practical for the masses, nope.

seekingblue
07-12-2018, 07:38 AM
.....in other news, I canmot wait for July 27th to come, so we can be a united pilot group again.....

benzoate
07-12-2018, 07:55 AM
.....in other news, I canmot wait for July 27th to come, so we can be a united pilot group again.....

United and contractually behind our peers. 😜

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 08:16 AM
.....in other news, I canmot wait for July 27th to come, so we can be a united pilot group again.....

.......#metoo

queue
07-12-2018, 08:36 AM
I dont recall advising anyone on their vote, but operate as you will BD.
I am funny, I know. Thanks for that.:)


Bozo blocks people because he is so opinionated and he can't get a grip when people oppose him.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-12-2018, 09:14 AM
Yep, millions start a new business... What's the statistical success rate of a new business?

Whats the safety net you propose that will help with housing and food for their family for the very high percentage of start-ups that fail after they sink their life savings into their "swing for the fences"?

In our healthcare system, how is a new business startup going to provide/fund healthcare for his/her family on the individual market during the very lean start-up years?

Sorry, we are all entitled to our "opinion". But I think it's obvious that the majority of jobs available are not "good" jobs, no matter how educated the average American is and starting your own "start-up" is not a practical solution for the masses for a multitude of reasons.

Possible yes, practical for the masses, nope.


Right now, there's many service sector jobs that are not designed or meant to support a family. In fact, few jobs can even if there's modestly paying jobs. The equation behind this is quite complex:


Generation-ization of defeatism. entire cultures now exist in the USA (not limited to the skin color argument) where self-education, hard work, and morality are no longer cultural values. The result: even if you want to break out of that culture, everyone else in it will work overtime to drag you down.
Safety net. Why do you pre-suppose that I support a social safety net? To me, safety-nets ARE the problem. Without the incentive to survival, people don't help themselves. Safety nets steal from you to subsidize others, largely without accountability and always through force. I prefer a system of charity where I can *choose* whom I support via a temporary support system, provided they prove themselves to me, not some low-performance government servant.
Start ups. Again, if people lose *all* their money, they were being irresponsible. Why don't they diversify and get enough life support funding instead of just being reckless? There are plenty of investors who are willing to fund startups provided they aren't selling igloos to Eskimos. I have some knowledge of this firsthand so I can tell you that there are many people who take unacceptable risks fully knowing it... they are counting on a quick dollar. Nothing in life is free. Get rich quick schemes are usually frauds. Hard work is the only reliable way to support yourself. Note: often the founders of startups are the hard workers, but they have been ill-served by the educational system that doesn't teach them much.
Educational system. It's designed to make you subservient to authority, not to be independent. After school, the system is designed to make you dependent in every aspect of your life -- socialism. That's why you have leftists, Bernie-sandonistas, social justice warriors, ANTIFA, Democrats, communists, and so on... they all breed a culture of victimization and self-entitlement. None of them do anything to better society, they merely leech from it. Look at how useless college is now, with the exception of STEM degrees. A degree in feminism or SJW will not get you a job or give you the knowledge and attitude you need to find a problem to solve then start a business.
Health care. Again you presume you are entitled to someone else's work. That is slavery. A doctor is not obligated to treat you unless you pay them for their work. Likewise, I'm not obligated to be indentured to subsidize someone else's life. They need to learn to be self-sufficient. Make healthy choices --- don't smoke, don't drink (BJ pilots), don't have chemical dependencies, exercise, don't engage in risky behaviors (BJ pilots who have affairs in SDQ), don't hang around people who will bring your health down (e.g. dopers, crackheads, connoisseurs of mary jane).

Also, we need to re-engineer healthcare. Right now it's artificially shaped by the collusion of social safety nets, corporations, and government. Let the free market dictate things. You know, there was a time when medical costs were as low as your co-pays. A lot of people don't know that. Do you know why your pharmaceuticals are so high? Because you are subsidizing pills for people in other countries. Look it up sometime.

I could go on but suffice it to say that many problems in this country are self-made through culture, values, and lack of unintelligent political influence. We love socialism but we don't acknowledge the cost of it. If we continue to subscribe to belief systems that breed victim-hood, defeatism, social justice, and self-entitlement, there can never be progress.

In many ways it's just like the self-made, self-fulfilling prophecy of the BJ pilot. We always complain about wanting better conditions/pay yet we shoot ourselves in the face every single time with bad decisions:


Company takes away pay, profit sharing, medical.... a PEA gets put in place. Pilots don't bother to educate themselves on contracts and so they buy off on a smoke & mirrors PEA that ends in Arbitration (a bad word!).
BJ shafts pilots in pay. The "grievance" process takes months and months.
Administrative law judge says we win, but we really don't because we got nothing, or practically nothing. BJ wins.
Reason for failure: the pilot group took the first available option which was nothing more than engineered controlled opposition, just like TA 1.0 (cost-neutral, behind peers, extremely poor legal language, full of loopholes put in by BJ, many unknowns all dictated by pairing construction which we don't control).
So like all these unemployed people compared to the BJ pilot group, who is to blame? BJ, Trump, or *ourselves*?







This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-12-2018, 09:20 AM
.......#metoo


BD, I almost forgot to mention a personal hero of mine... Mike Rowe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rowe


Please look at some of his network news interviews. He's a working class hero, particularly in his TV shows that teach us about personal responsibility, hard work, humility, and what the American worker can do for an honorable living. Contrast what you see there to many of the socialism ills of our society.



http://aquaticaviation.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Mike-Rowe-cropped.png

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

BunkerF16
07-12-2018, 10:51 AM
.....in other news, I canmot wait for July 27th to come, so we can be a united pilot group again.....


Can't tell if this is a play on words or just plain sarcasm. Either way, well played.

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 11:19 AM
Right now, there's many service sector jobs that are not designed or meant to support a family. In fact, few jobs can even if there's modestly paying jobs. The equation behind this is quite complex:


Generation-ization of defeatism. entire cultures now exist in the USA (not limited to the skin color argument) where self-education, hard work, and morality are no longer cultural values. The result: even if you want to break out of that culture, everyone else in it will work overtime to drag you down.
Safety net. Why do you pre-suppose that I support a social safety net? To me, safety-nets ARE the problem. Without the incentive to survival, people don't help themselves. Safety nets steal from you to subsidize others, largely without accountability and always through force. I prefer a system of charity where I can *choose* whom I support via a temporary support system, provided they prove themselves to me, not some low-performance government servant.
Start ups. Again, if people lose *all* their money, they were being irresponsible. Why don't they diversify and get enough life support funding instead of just being reckless? There are plenty of investors who are willing to fund startups provided they aren't selling igloos to Eskimos. I have some knowledge of this firsthand so I can tell you that there are many people who take unacceptable risks fully knowing it... they are counting on a quick dollar. Nothing in life is free. Get rich quick schemes are usually frauds. Hard work is the only reliable way to support yourself. Note: often the founders of startups are the hard workers, but they have been ill-served by the educational system that doesn't teach them much.
Educational system. It's designed to make you subservient to authority, not to be independent. After school, the system is designed to make you dependent in every aspect of your life -- socialism. That's why you have leftists, Bernie-sandonistas, social justice warriors, ANTIFA, Democrats, communists, and so on... they all breed a culture of victimization and self-entitlement. None of them do anything to better society, they merely leech from it. Look at how useless college is now, with the exception of STEM degrees. A degree in feminism or SJW will not get you a job or give you the knowledge and attitude you need to find a problem to solve then start a business.
Health care. Again you presume you are entitled to someone else's work. That is slavery. A doctor is not obligated to treat you unless you pay them for their work. Likewise, I'm not obligated to be indentured to subsidize someone else's life. They need to learn to be self-sufficient. Make healthy choices --- don't smoke, don't drink (BJ pilots), don't have chemical dependencies, exercise, don't engage in risky behaviors (BJ pilots who have affairs in SDQ), don't hang around people who will bring your health down (e.g. dopers, crackheads, connoisseurs of mary jane).

Also, we need to re-engineer healthcare. Right now it's artificially shaped by the collusion of social safety nets, corporations, and government. Let the free market dictate things. You know, there was a time when medical costs were as low as your co-pays. A lot of people don't know that. Do you know why your pharmaceuticals are so high? Because you are subsidizing pills for people in other countries. Look it up sometime.

I could go on but suffice it to say that many problems in this country are self-made through culture, values, and lack of unintelligent political influence. We love socialism but we don't acknowledge the cost of it. If we continue to subscribe to belief systems that breed victim-hood, defeatism, social justice, and self-entitlement, there can never be progress.

In many ways it's just like the self-made, self-fulfilling prophecy of the BJ pilot. We always complain about wanting better conditions/pay yet we shoot ourselves in the face every single time with bad decisions:


Company takes away pay, profit sharing, medical.... a PEA gets put in place. Pilots don't bother to educate themselves on contracts and so they buy off on a smoke & mirrors PEA that ends in Arbitration (a bad word!).
BJ shafts pilots in pay. The "grievance" process takes months and months.
Administrative law judge says we win, but we really don't because we got nothing, or practically nothing. BJ wins.
Reason for failure: the pilot group took the first available option which was nothing more than engineered controlled opposition, just like TA 1.0 (cost-neutral, behind peers, extremely poor legal language, full of loopholes put in by BJ, many unknowns all dictated by pairing construction which we don't control).
So like all these unemployed people compared to the BJ pilot group, who is to blame? BJ, Trump, or *ourselves*?







This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

I might read the rest when I have a few hours to kill...

Lots of ideological stuff, but practically speaking misses the previous conversation.

For instance, you say they should not lose all their money on a start-up and should have lots of cash saved up before going out on their own... Ok, but we were talking about how most available jobs are very low wage jobs. So, how is someone supposed to get a job that supports their life AND allows for significant savings to be amassed to have a good individual safety net prior to starting their own company? And I might have missed it, but what is the average success rate of a new business again?

Healthcare, you can make your ideological argument about slavery all you want, but for most it's an expensive necessity and now you are saying the solution to our over abundance of low paying jobs (and proportional scarcity of good paying jobs) for the masses is to get an available low paying job, and while supporting your current life needs, amass a very large safety net of money to support your new company through the lean years (assuming it doesn't fail, which statistically, it probably will) while showing your rugged individualism by funding your family healthcare. All from an existing available low wage job.

Yep, that should work for the masses, can't see any way for that plan to go wrong.

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 11:20 AM
BD, I almost forgot to mention a personal hero of mine... Mike Rowe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Rowe


Please look at some of his network news interviews. He's a working class hero, particularly in his TV shows that teach us about personal responsibility, hard work, humility, and what the American worker can do for an honorable living. Contrast what you see there to many of the socialism ills of our society.



http://aquaticaviation.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Mike-Rowe-cropped.png

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

No argument, he's an impressive man.

jtrain609
07-12-2018, 11:26 AM
.....in other news, I canmot wait for July 27th to come, so we can be a united pilot group again.....

At the rate things are going, we're on track to resemble the American pilot group.

Southerner
07-12-2018, 11:38 AM
At the rate things are going, we're on track to resemble the American pilot group.

I think it will pass 70/30.

Xtreme87
07-12-2018, 11:56 AM
At the rate things are going, we're on track to resemble the American pilot group.

Well itís funny because if those guys would have just shut up and agreed to something in the early days of the merger with A west and Us Air. Their contract would resemble that of Deltaís right now. Instead they fought and fought and gave millions to Parker. Same thing here if this thing falls through. While I think this TA should have never been sent to the pilot group with the amount of slack and loopholes that it gives to the company, at this point in the game, voting it down would be dumb. Our labor dispute is dead and summer is almost over. Expecting them to come back with substantial gains before next summer would be completely unrealistic.

Junglejet4life
07-12-2018, 11:58 AM
At the rate things are going, we're on track to resemble the American pilot group.

I hope not...those guys are some strange cats.

pilotpayne
07-12-2018, 01:10 PM
At the rate things are going, we're on track to resemble the American pilot group.

Pretty much. Itís so stupid.

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 02:05 PM
Pretty much. Itís so stupid.

After the 27th things will begin to improve within the group notably. Not everyone, but it will get much better over time.

pilotpayne
07-12-2018, 02:17 PM
After the 27th things will begin to improve within the group notably. Not everyone, but it will get much better over time.

I donít share your optimistic appraisal of the situation (name that movie)

As I said in an another post this is just another bona fides for some of our loudmouths to cling to. Iím a bus pilot Iím in a rebel base I voted no. You see it on bluepilots. No doubt all airlines have this issue but the company will dork up implantation and they will be there to say SEE I TOLD YOU. Kind of like what you do :)

I donít know I just donít see it getting better. I wish the LGB guys would have just voted yes and explained it like the Boston guys did that the timeline sucked but the TA was solid. Now we have a split group among the LEC.

Maybe Iím just feeling pessimistic today. What would help is if this contract does what the union says it will about QOL but those (no)dudes will still be ****ed and continue dealing in hypotheticals.

BunkerF16
07-12-2018, 02:36 PM
I donít share your optimistic appraisal of the situation (name that movie)

As I said in an another post this is just another bona fides for some of our loudmouths to cling to. Iím a bus pilot Iím in a rebel base I voted no. You see it on bluepilots. No doubt all airlines have this issue but the company will dork up implantation and they will be there to say SEE I TOLD YOU. Kind of like what you do :)

I donít know I just donít see it getting better. I wish the LGB guys would have just voted yes and explained it like the Boston guys did that the timeline sucked but the TA was solid. Now we have a split group among the LEC.

Maybe Iím just feeling pessimistic today. What would help is if this contract does what the union says it will about QOL but those (no)dudes will still be ****ed and continue dealing in hypotheticals.


Or maybe the BOS guys should have voted no and sent the thing back.


I'm not optimistic either. If this thing passes 70-30, the healing will be quicker...if it's 50s to 40s, I think the frustration and divide goes on a lot longer....

embraerjetpilot
07-12-2018, 03:33 PM
I wish that they had. In the best negotiating environment in years, we shouldnít be taking concessions.

queue
07-12-2018, 04:25 PM
I might read the rest when I have a few hours to kill...

Lots of ideological stuff, but practically speaking misses the previous conversation.

For instance, you say they should not lose all their money on a start-up and should have lots of cash saved up before going out on their own... Ok, but we were talking about how most available jobs are very low wage jobs. So, how is someone supposed to get a job that supports their life AND allows for significant savings to be amassed to have a good individual safety net prior to starting their own company? And I might have missed it, but what is the average success rate of a new business again?

Healthcare, you can make your ideological argument about slavery all you want, but for most it's an expensive necessity and now you are saying the solution to our over abundance of low paying jobs (and proportional scarcity of good paying jobs) for the masses is to get an available low paying job, and while supporting your current life needs, amass a very large safety net of money to support your new company through the lean years (assuming it doesn't fail, which statistically, it probably will) while showing your rugged individualism by funding your family healthcare. All from an existing available low wage job.

Yep, that should work for the masses, can't see any way for that plan to go wrong.


It's pretty clear that there will be a few generations that will be misplaced. That is the inevitable consequence of the leftist-ideology that has plagued this country since the 1950s and 1960s. Like the flu, things will have to get worse before they get better. It will take generations for cultures to evolve past needing to be dependent on centralized government. We have to re-engineer schools so they are useful and relevant again. We need to redo government so that it's more accountable to local control (smaller federal government). We need to stop with handouts and other social welfare systems because it only gives us San Francisco with poop & needles and the miles long Skid Row of L.A... and Detroit the warzone... oh and NYC... which is all of the aforementioned. People need to learn to think on their own rather than letting political party controlled media networks do the thinking for them. We even need a monetary system like Bitcoin with a Blockchain like system that prevents governments and private companies (e.g. the Federal Reserve) from creating inflation from printing money out of thin air. That's the only real way to fix things. People will suffer. But, that's the price of people's complacency from their 1st world lives. Sadly I don't think we're going to get a system overnight that is just and fair. Incidentally, I agree with Trump's trade war because it's leveling the playing field for these people who have failed businesses. It's not fair that we pay an extra 30-40% to sell in other countries while they enjoy no or little tariffs selling in the USA. Likewise, I agree with him that we shouldn't be subsidizing Europe's defense while they get rich being in bed with Russia in trade for an oil pipeline. Make them pay their fair share for NATO so that money can come back here.



But, no one is *entitled* to health care. It's not a right. It's a service and you can't force it from anyone. Sadly life isn't fair. I work in animal rescue and I get to see the worst that humanity inflicts on the truly innocent. I wish it weren't so. But, I don't exist in order to make up for the injustices of the universe. If people have low wage jobs, they can change it. Go back 100-200 years and even people now without healthcare still get it a million times better than even the wealthy had back then. That's human progress from the capitalistic system of economy we have coupled with the freedom loving Constitutional republic we have. It allows that one guy who had the special magic to discover, invent, and market something that makes the world a better place. It isn't perfect but it certainly is the best system ever devised in the history of human existence. No where in there did I ever agree to subsidize someone else's subsistence by force of law.



About getting savings to start a company... it doesn't take much to start a company. This is something I know A LOT about since I own a few. You can literally go from off the street to being a millionaire. It just depends on whether you have the business sense to find a niche to fill. It depends on your individual discipline, desire, creativity, brains, and motivation. I have a personal acquaintance who went from jail to be a millionaire by starting a wrecker company. He couldn't get high powered jobs like you and me, and he didn't have the education, so he worked construction jobs as a laborer. He saved pennies enough to buy a wrecker and got his construction friends to work for him. He now owns about 20 wreckers and makes millions every year. Similarly, I used to date a really hot girl who never went to college, grew up as a Mennonite. She worked with a smart guy who set up a website to sell things and she grew the business from a small, obscure online store into a really big one. She too is a multi-millionaire now. Obviously not everyone succeeds, but it's no one's fault but their own if they don't. They're not victims... no one is out there ensuring the vast majority of people can't succeed. Most people fail because of their own defeatist attitudes (e.g. like BJ pilots who accept a bad contract because they don't know any better).



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-12-2018, 04:28 PM
At the rate things are going, we're on track to resemble the American pilot group.


It's also a great opportunity to finally breed a culture of professionalism in the BJ pilot group. We could eliminate the Regional Mentality. Change is not always bad.



The only real risk is posed from a bad contract - like what American has.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
07-12-2018, 04:34 PM
I wish that they had. In the best negotiating environment in years, we shouldnít be taking concessions.

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Do you honestly think that the TA is worse than what we currently have? That's what "concessions" means.

queue
07-12-2018, 04:36 PM
I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Do you honestly think that the TA is worse than what we currently have? That's what "concessions" means.


Perhaps you should read the reference to the Dependability Policy (via the Commuter Policy) and the part about Positive Contact. They are worse than before.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
07-12-2018, 04:37 PM
Today 08:36 PM by queue
This message is hidden because queue is on your ignore list.

Ah...this never gets old...

CaptCoolHand
07-12-2018, 04:44 PM
I wish that they had. In the best negotiating environment in years, we shouldnít be taking concessions.

If only guys had stopped picking up RSA and doing VDA and running to the companies aid at every turn...

embraerjetpilot
07-12-2018, 05:29 PM
I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Do you honestly think that the TA is worse than what we currently have? That's what "concessions" means.

For me personally, in my situation... yes.

BunkerF16
07-12-2018, 05:30 PM
For me personally, in my situation... yes.


Same.........

Flytolive
07-12-2018, 06:36 PM
The consensus estimate for 2018 is less than 3% even with soaring debt.At what 'data' are you looking? You must be looking at quarterly numbers that vary seasonally because no annual forecasts have the US GDP > 3% even with the exploding debt to GDP ratio.
False again
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/15/goldman-sachs-model-now-points-to-4-percent-second-quarter-gdp-growth.html
Even Goldman sachs now think gdp will be above 4% for q2.In your hopeless Google quest for supporting data you don't even seem to understand the difference between quarterly and annual data. Sorry, but I don't think I or anyone can help you.

Flytolive
07-12-2018, 06:45 PM
We need to stop with handouts and other social welfare systems because it only gives us San Francisco with poop & needles and the miles long Skid Row of L.A... and Detroit the warzone... oh and NYC... which is all of the aforementioned. That is hilarious. California is home to 40M residents and if it were a nation it would be the 6th largest economy on earth. NYC is the financial capital of the world.

Your ridiculous rugged individual chest-puffing isn't fooling anyone, not even yourself which is probably the underlying intent. Good luck with that.

Blue Dude
07-12-2018, 07:13 PM
I donít share your optimistic appraisal of the situation (name that movie)

But you ask the impossible. We need more men (to vote no).

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 09:41 PM
I donít share your optimistic appraisal of the situation (name that movie)

As I said in an another post this is just another bona fides for some of our loudmouths to cling to. Iím a bus pilot Iím in a rebel base I voted no. You see it on bluepilots. No doubt all airlines have this issue but the company will dork up *****implantation****# and they will be there to say SEE I TOLD YOU. Kind of like what you do :)

I donít know I just donít see it getting better. I wish the LGB guys would have just voted yes and explained it like the Boston guys did that the timeline sucked but the TA was solid. Now we have a split group among the LEC.

Maybe Iím just feeling pessimistic today. What would help is if this contract does what the union says it will about QOL but those (no)dudes will still be ****ed and continue dealing in hypotheticals.

Freud wants his slip back...

😁

Yeah, the 27 guys on BP won't get over it, the rest will mostly move on I think.

pilotpayne
07-12-2018, 10:47 PM
Or maybe the BOS guys should have voted no and sent the thing back.


I'm not optimistic either. If this thing passes 70-30, the healing will be quicker...if it's 50s to 40s, I think the frustration and divide goes on a lot longer....

And the MCO guys and 2 JFK guys and a FLL guy.

pilotpayne
07-12-2018, 10:52 PM
Freud wants his slip back...

😁

Yeah, the 27 guys on BP won't get over it, the rest will mostly move on I think.


Well the company would dork that up as well. I wonder if itís coverd under insurance?

Stupid autocorrect or stupid writer :)


Letís hope so but like f16 said it needs to be a big win.

Southerner
07-13-2018, 12:16 AM
For me personally, in my situation... yes.

You can't look at only one thing, ignoring the rest, and say it's concessionary. If all things remained equal, and your pay remained flat, I would agree. But instead you get scope, dramatically improved work rules, etc. Yes, you're losing PTO sellback. But that's not the only thing in the CBA. On the whole it's a big improvement, which is why it's going to pass by 65-70%.

embraerjetpilot
07-13-2018, 03:44 AM
You can't look at only one thing, ignoring the rest, and say it's concessionary. If all things remained equal, and your pay remained flat, I would agree. But instead you get scope, dramatically improved work rules, etc. Yes, you're losing PTO sellback. But that's not the only thing in the CBA. On the whole it's a big improvement, which is why it's going to pass by 65-70%.

Ive spent the last two weeks reading the damn thing looking for some hidden gem. If my pay is going down by 10,000 dollars a year, what do you think its worth? Theres no work rule that will convince me that its worth that. The bus guys get a much bigger raise to make up for it but I do not. I will end up commuting again next year back on the bus if this thing passes. For the last two years I have spent mostly on reserve enjoying life and my kids know who I am. Now we are even losing EPS pay on reserve and thats sure to cost me too.

And don't tell me the vacation rules are worth it. Do we need more vacation allotment at times of the year when it pays to take vacation? Absolutely! Do we need scope? Absofreakinglutely. But I survived our crappy first year pay (the one thing in this contract that I do believe that they got 100 percent right) and I am finally in a position where I can really make some dough... and now I get to go backwards!

Oh, and we have taken 3-4 mini vacations each year for the last two years.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 04:00 AM
And the MCO guys and 2 JFK guys and a FLL guy.


Yep. Them too.


I've always said if the MEC wrapped up the PEA in the form of a TA that 35-40% of this pilot group would have still voted for it. I had always hoped that we had 2 layers to protect us from ourselves--that the NC would never bring us a substandard AIP and if they did, the MEC would never let it get to the pilot group.


Fail. Fail.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 04:05 AM
You can't look at only one thing, ignoring the rest, and say it's concessionary. If all things remained equal, and your pay remained flat, I would agree. But instead you get scope, dramatically improved work rules, etc. Yes, you're losing PTO sellback. But that's not the only thing in the CBA. On the whole it's a big improvement, which is why it's going to pass by 65-70%.




For you, it's an improvement. I lose money and days off with this TA. It's concessionary. Period, dot.


I'm glad there were many fixes, particularly with some of the pairing constructions and daily credit which helps the junior guys more. I never expected a pay raise out of this, mainly because of the PTOSB. I was fine with that. What I didn't expect was to take a substantial pay cut and have to work 2-3 more days a month.


Add on top of that vacation alllotment, no UTS, PS cliff, bottom of peer pay rates, COLA, should I go on? This is a bottom of the barrel TA which will keep us trailing our peers for the next 5-7 years. And when we got to mediation next time, the mediator is going to say, "Hey, you guys accepted bottom last time, guess where I expect you to accept this time?" Precedence will have been set.


My only hope to finish my career at a real airline with a pilot group that fights for its worth is to hope like hell we merge.

capt707
07-13-2018, 05:12 AM
On the whole it's a big improvement, which is why it's going to pass by 65-70%.

OMG! If I hear that crap from one more guy.... ďbut itís an improvement to what we have nowĒ..... well no sh!t! It is suppose to be an improvement, doesnít mean you have to vote yes just because it is better than the crap PEA and FSM we worked under for so long.

This is the most pathetic pilot group I have ever worked with!

Southerner
07-13-2018, 05:53 AM
For you, it's an improvement. I lose money and days off with this TA. It's concessionary. Period, dot.


I'm glad there were many fixes, particularly with some of the pairing constructions and daily credit which helps the junior guys more. I never expected a pay raise out of this, mainly because of the PTOSB. I was fine with that. What I didn't expect was to take a substantial pay cut and have to work 2-3 more days a month.


Add on top of that vacation alllotment, no UTS, PS cliff, bottom of peer pay rates, COLA, should I go on? This is a bottom of the barrel TA which will keep us trailing our peers for the next 5-7 years. And when we got to mediation next time, the mediator is going to say, "Hey, you guys accepted bottom last time, guess where I expect you to accept this time?" Precedence will have been set.


My only hope to finish my career at a real airline with a pilot group that fights for its worth is to hope like hell we merge.

I sell back PTO, so for be it's flat in terms of pay. But for the same pay I can now call in sick, and get a vacation. The work rules have improved elsewhere also. Plus, we have scope now. So it's a net improvement, and enough of one to justify my yes vote.

The PTO sellback people are in the minority (myself included). If I want to monetize my vacation, I can do so by flying over it.

Southerner
07-13-2018, 05:55 AM
OMG! If I hear that crap from one more guy.... ďbut itís an improvement to what we have nowĒ..... well no sh!t! It is suppose to be an improvement, doesnít mean you have to vote yes just because it is better than the crap PEA and FSM we worked under for so long.

This is the most pathetic pilot group I have ever worked with!

It isn't pathetic to think differently than you do. You can vote no. That's your right, and I don't think you are pathetic for doing so. Try giving your fellow pilots the same respect.

Rabid Seagull
07-13-2018, 06:03 AM
Now we are even losing EPS pay on reserve and thats sure to cost me too.



Reference please.

pilotpayne
07-13-2018, 06:17 AM
For you, it's an improvement. I lose money and days off with this TA. It's concessionary. Period, dot.


I'm glad there were many fixes, particularly with some of the pairing constructions and daily credit which helps the junior guys more. I never expected a pay raise out of this, mainly because of the PTOSB. I was fine with that. What I didn't expect was to take a substantial pay cut and have to work 2-3 more days a month.


Add on top of that vacation alllotment, no UTS, PS cliff, bottom of peer pay rates, COLA, should I go on? This is a bottom of the barrel TA which will keep us trailing our peers for the next 5-7 years. And when we got to mediation next time, the mediator is going to say, "Hey, you guys accepted bottom last time, guess where I expect you to accept this time?" Precedence will have been set.


My only hope to finish my career at a real airline with a pilot group that fights for its worth is to hope like hell we merge.


Yeah a merger (maybe that CBA language is important) that will give us a pilot group that fights (EVEN MORE AMONGST ITSELF)

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 07:05 AM
Yeah a merger (maybe that CBA language is important) that will give us a pilot group that fights (EVEN MORE AMONGST ITSELF)


At least we'd have a contract to be proud of.

pilotpayne
07-13-2018, 07:14 AM
At least we'd have a contract to be proud of.

And the language in our current TA would be part of getting that. But who needs merger language when we have PEAs.

I also think there is stuff in this TA that you can be proud of. This we suck stuff and we canít be proud is getting old. Iím pretty sure you did a bunch of ALPA stuff there is no reason to walk around like eeyore, but it is fun for many here a ĒbluejetĒ

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 07:23 AM
And the language in our current TA would be part of getting that. But who needs merger language when we have PEAs.

I also think there is stuff in this TA that you can be proud of. This we suck stuff and we canít be proud is getting old. Iím pretty sure you did a bunch of ALPA stuff there is no reason to walk around like eeyore, but it is fun for many here a ĒbluejetĒ


We have some merger protection in our PEA right now, especially if it's with another ALPA carrier, but I guess it's better to be scared of the boogie man and hurry up and sign a sub par TA just in case we get bought/oil hits $150 a barrel/economy tanks/etc etc.


There's nothing in this TA that I can look at and say that affects me in a positive way either $, QOL, or just peace of mind. I'd rather live under the PEA for another 1 or 2 than accept this POS for the next 5-7.

Softpayman
07-13-2018, 09:03 AM
We have some merger protection in our PEA right now, especially if it's with another ALPA carrier, but I guess it's better to be scared of the boogie man and hurry up and sign a sub par TA just in case we get bought/oil hits $150 a barrel/economy tanks/etc etc.
.

Some merger protection...Sounds Good!

Throw the word "scared' around all you like, I get it...It's language you're using for a reason, trying to persuade. I'd rather be called informed and scared than woefully optimistic.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 10:20 AM
Some merger protection...Sounds Good!

Throw the word "scared' around all you like, I get it...It's language you're using for a reason, trying to persuade. I'd rather be called informed and scared than woefully optimistic.


I'm not trying to persuade anyone. Calling a spade a spade. This TA is going to pass, I have zero doubts about that so I'm not wasting my time counting votes or changing minds. Informed does not equal smart or translate into intelligent decisions.

rvr1800
07-13-2018, 10:21 AM
We have some merger protection in our PEA right now, especially if it's with another ALPA carrier, but I guess it's better to be scared of the boogie man and hurry up and sign a sub par TA just in case we get bought/oil hits $150 a barrel/economy tanks/etc etc.


There's nothing in this TA that I can look at and say that affects me in a positive way either $, QOL, or just peace of mind. I'd rather live under the PEA for another 1 or 2 than accept this POS for the next 5-7.

You lose a lot of credibility in my eyes with that second paragraph. You canít pick out one thing in the TA that you think is positive? Time to take the blinders off. Thatís just as reasonable as someone who canít pick out one bad thing in the TA.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 10:27 AM
You lose a lot of credibility in my eyes with that second paragraph. You canít pick out one thing in the TA that you think is positive? Time to take the blinders off. Thatís just as reasonable as someone who canít pick out one bad thing in the TA.


Rvr......I don't type that paragraph lightly. I have said before that there are a lot of good things in this TA. A lot of them. 90% are for middle to lower seniority guys. With my position, in my seat with my background, there's literally nothing that I find worthy of voting for this over what we operate under now. If you want to know why, I'll gladly outline it in a PM, but it's really that bad--for me and my situation.

benzoate
07-13-2018, 10:47 AM
We have some merger protection in our PEA right now, especially if it's with another ALPA carrier, but I guess it's better to be scared of the boogie man and hurry up and sign a sub par TA just in case we get bought/oil hits $150 a barrel/economy tanks/etc etc.


There's nothing in this TA that I can look at and say that affects me in a positive way either $, QOL, or just peace of mind. I'd rather live under the PEA for another 1 or 2 than accept this POS for the next 5-7.

No we do not. The legal interpretation from ALPA in the beginning made it clear we could not force another carrier to abide by a Pilot Employment Agreement. You are referring to the provisions under McKaskill/Bond.

Should we be purchased, acquired, merged or however you want to term it Jetblue ensured that Section 15 of the PEA would only cover you in the Bluethisfere fantasy land.

The TA scope is what we've always needed. Please do not confuse the two.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 10:51 AM
No we do not. The legal interpretation from ALPA in the beginning made it clear we could not force another carrier to abide by a Pilot Employment Agreement. You are referring to the provisions under McKaskill/Bond.

Should we be purchased, acquired, merged or however you want to term it Jetblue ensured that Section 15 of the PEA would only cover you in the Bluethisfere fantasy land.

The TA scope is what we've always needed. Please do not confuse the two.


I'm not confusing the two. Is the language in the TA more definitive? Yes. Are we without any merger protection right now? No.

benzoate
07-13-2018, 10:53 AM
For you, it's an improvement. I lose money and days off with this TA. It's concessionary. Period, dot.


I'm glad there were many fixes, particularly with some of the pairing constructions and daily credit which helps the junior guys more. I never expected a pay raise out of this, mainly because of the PTOSB. I was fine with that. What I didn't expect was to take a substantial pay cut and have to work 2-3 more days a month.


Add on top of that vacation alllotment, no UTS, PS cliff, bottom of peer pay rates, COLA, should I go on? This is a bottom of the barrel TA which will keep us trailing our peers for the next 5-7 years. And when we got to mediation next time, the mediator is going to say, "Hey, you guys accepted bottom last time, guess where I expect you to accept this time?" Precedence will have been set.


My only hope to finish my career at a real airline with a pilot group that fights for its worth is to hope like hell we merge.

I hate to pick on you, sir, but you have to at least try and make a cogent argument. You are correct with the UTS, PS and COLA. We will always trail our peers because we negotiate for today and our cycle will always be behind. As far as "precedent" with a mediator there is no such thing and any suggestion is ludicrous.

All that aside, VOTE NO!

We can do better.

benzoate
07-13-2018, 10:54 AM
I'm not confusing the two. Is the language in the TA more definitive? Yes. Are we without any merger protection right now? No.

Agreed but our "protections" would come from McKaskill's "fair and equitable" and not from the bullsheet PEA.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 10:57 AM
Agreed but our "protections" would come from McKaskill's "fair and equitable" and not from the bullsheet PEA.


Many, but not all. Send Russ Pomarico an email and ask him about it (M&A Chairman). He'll give you a little more background (as much as he can) as to what protections we currently have and where they come from.


I think we're getting in the weeds a bit. Is our protection better with the TA? Yes, but we are not without protection now. I think we can agree on that.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 11:02 AM
I hate to pick on you, sir, but you have to at least try and make a cogent argument. You are correct with the UTS, PS and COLA. We will always trail our peers because we negotiate for today and our cycle will always be behind. As far as "precedent" with a mediator there is no such thing and any suggestion is ludicrous.

All that aside, VOTE NO!

We can do better.


So you agree that we will always trail our peers because of this TA though, right? When I say precedent, my point is that we will have to convince a mediator why we shouldn't ask for our current slot next time as well and why it will be incrementally more difficult to as for a near-Legacy contract. I'm not talking precedent in the legal term, or something that an arbitrator would use for legal decision making. I only use that term in reference to where we are slotting ourselves, and most likely for future negotiations.

pilotpayne
07-13-2018, 11:07 AM
We have some merger protection in our PEA right now, especially if it's with another ALPA carrier, but I guess it's better to be scared of the boogie man and hurry up and sign a sub par TA just in case we get bought/oil hits $150 a barrel/economy tanks/etc etc.


There's nothing in this TA that I can look at and say that affects me in a positive way either $, QOL, or just peace of mind. I'd rather live under the PEA for another 1 or 2 than accept this POS for the next 5-7.


Rather live under the PEA.
Iím done, good luck bunker.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 11:12 AM
Rather live under the PEA.
Iím done, good luck bunker.


Me too. Same to you, brother.

seekingblue
07-13-2018, 04:39 PM
Just think.......

In 2 weeks we can all be friends again talking about what type of beer is best.

BunkerF16
07-13-2018, 04:45 PM
Just think.......

In 2 weeks we can all be friends again talking about what type of beer is best.


We're not friends now? :(

seekingblue
07-13-2018, 06:53 PM
We're not friends now? :(

You and I are still besties (even though we voted differently).

POG and Queue aren't happy with me. POG called our pilot group wannabe scabs. So no, we arenít besties at the moment.

Maybe we can all hash our differences on Dr. Phil after all?

P.S. up until this vote and POG's comment, we both had nearly identical views. Pro union, wear the lanyard, hold the line, etc. Hope we can get back to that and have beers.

PasserOGas
07-13-2018, 08:19 PM
You and I are still besties (even though we voted differently).

POG and Queue aren't happy with me. POG called our pilot group wannabe scabs. So no, we arenít besties at the moment.

Maybe we can all hash our differences on Dr. Phil after all?

P.S. up until this vote and POG's comment, we both had nearly identical views. Pro union, wear the lanyard, hold the line, etc. Hope we can get back to that and have beers.

Again, for the 12th time. I called the wannabe scabs in our group wannabe scabs. Not All.

BunkerF16
07-14-2018, 04:39 AM
You and I are still besties (even though we voted differently).

POG and Queue aren't happy with me. POG called our pilot group wannabe scabs. So no, we arenít besties at the moment.

Maybe we can all hash our differences on Dr. Phil after all?

P.S. up until this vote and POG's comment, we both had nearly identical views. Pro union, wear the lanyard, hold the line, etc. Hope we can get back to that and have beers.


Fair enough. And I agree that these "anonymous" message boards allow the worst of us to come out sometimes. Say things we'd never say in person, and maybe not even really believe but emotions are high right now, no doubt about it. Personal attacks are dumb. Categorizing people are dumb (Guilty). I'm sure I'd enjoy sitting down and having beers with each and every one of you. Except you Joe Payne. I doubt I'd like you very much. ;)

hyperboy
07-14-2018, 05:09 AM
Fair enough. And I agree that these "anonymous" message boards allow the worst of us to come out sometimes. Say things we'd never say in person, and maybe not even really believe but emotions are high right now, no doubt about it. Personal attacks are dumb. Categorizing people are dumb (Guilty). I'm sure I'd enjoy sitting down and having beers with each and every one of you. Except you Joe Payne. I doubt I'd like you very much. ;)

Not anonymous for all of us.

BunkerF16
07-14-2018, 05:22 AM
Not anonymous for all of us.


True. Even more so on BPs. anonymous or illusion of anonymity. Same thing.

pilotpayne
07-14-2018, 11:17 AM
Fair enough. And I agree that these "anonymous" message boards allow the worst of us to come out sometimes. Say things we'd never say in person, and maybe not even really believe but emotions are high right now, no doubt about it. Personal attacks are dumb. Categorizing people are dumb (Guilty). I'm sure I'd enjoy sitting down and having beers with each and every one of you. Except you Joe Payne. I doubt I'd like you very much. ;)

Some do some donít
Hell I wouldnít like to have beers with me either.

queue
07-16-2018, 08:26 PM
You and I are still besties (even though we voted differently).

POG and Queue aren't happy with me. POG called our pilot group wannabe scabs. So no, we arenít besties at the moment.

Maybe we can all hash our differences on Dr. Phil after all?

P.S. up until this vote and POG's comment, we both had nearly identical views. Pro union, wear the lanyard, hold the line, etc. Hope we can get back to that and have beers.

Just your decision to support a substandard TA, nothing more.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Curtaindriver
07-19-2018, 08:29 PM
We have some merger protection in our PEA right now, especially if it's with another ALPA carrier, but I guess it's better to be scared of the boogie man and hurry up and sign a sub par TA just in case we get bought/oil hits $150 a barrel/economy tanks/etc etc.


There's nothing in this TA that I can look at and say that affects me in a positive way either $, QOL, or just peace of mind. I'd rather live under the PEA for another 1 or 2 than accept this POS for the next 5-7.


Just so we are clear, like it or not this is actually our first contract. First one, we can use tricky language about how we've been negotiating for 18 years and all that.....but simple reality is this is our first contract. A contract that not only had to be bargained from zero, but also had to address many pitfalls and schemes utilized by this company to propagate more schemes that were used to facilitate wage suppression, lack of QOL, open-architecture of health care plans to change at will, language that the intent was 100% owned by the company. I could go on and on.


In this "POS" TA, we have finally secured language that the intent is shared, bargained and precisely noted in order to combat this company when they decide, and they will, to purposely break the rules.
We have finally obtained pay rates within 2% of Southwest, 14% was the closest we have ever been before. With the VEBA and the 16% in 2021 we are 1.4% from Southwest.
ADG
INT override and per diem
Contractual guard rails on a health care plan that is largely mirrored by the industry, and the country for that matter.
VEBA, which SWA and DAL are already discussing how to get included to protect 415(c) spill money to produce more tax-free dollars.
SCOPE that is top of the industry, DAL and UAL told us to our faces we would never prohibit CPA.
Maintaining night override, 30% of all pairings trigger this, only other airline is SWA and theirs is half.
Industry leading pairing footprint pay protections.,....by a long shot!
RSV rules that are top of the industry.
Pairing construction rules unseen in the industry.
Hours of service rules that are better than industry standard, and we don't have anything today for 'day-of-ops' protections.



We absolutely know the 2% is shy of what it should be compared to the industry.
We absolutely HATE the cliff, but you show me where any airline has bargained for a better PS formula while not in concessions or a JCBA. AA is your only example and it's the same as our junk PS.


I get it, there are things that I wanted....and bad. It's not perfect, but I would love to have a conversation with anyone that can explain to me how this is such a POS and we are somehow hurting the industry. You are off your freakin rocker to think that.

queue
07-19-2018, 09:32 PM
Just so we are clear, like it or not this is actually our first contract. First one, we can use tricky language about how we've been negotiating for 18 years and all that.....but simple reality is this is our first contract. A contract that not only had to be bargained from zero, but also had to address many pitfalls and schemes utilized by this company to propagate more schemes that were used to facilitate wage suppression, lack of QOL, open-architecture of health care plans to change at will, language that the intent was 100% owned by the company. I could go on and on.


In this "POS" TA, we have finally secured language that the intent is shared, bargained and precisely noted in order to combat this company when they decide, and they will, to purposely break the rules.
We have finally obtained pay rates within 2% of Southwest, 14% was the closest we have ever been before. With the VEBA and the 16% in 2021 we are 1.4% from Southwest.
ADG
INT override and per diem
Contractual guard rails on a health care plan that is largely mirrored by the industry, and the country for that matter.
VEBA, which SWA and DAL are already discussing how to get included to protect 415(c) spill money to produce more tax-free dollars.
SCOPE that is top of the industry, DAL and UAL told us to our faces we would never prohibit CPA.
Maintaining night override, 30% of all pairings trigger this, only other airline is SWA and theirs is half.
Industry leading pairing footprint pay protections.,....by a long shot!
RSV rules that are top of the industry.
Pairing construction rules unseen in the industry.
Hours of service rules that are better than industry standard, and we don't have anything today for 'day-of-ops' protections.



We absolutely know the 2% is shy of what it should be compared to the industry.
We absolutely HATE the cliff, but you show me where any airline has bargained for a better PS formula while not in concessions or a JCBA. AA is your only example and it's the same as our junk PS.


I get it, there are things that I wanted....and bad. It's not perfect, but I would love to have a conversation with anyone that can explain to me how this is such a POS and we are somehow hurting the industry. You are off your freakin rocker to think that.

So what if it's our first contract? This isn't the maiden voyage of the USS Nautilus or the first time getting to the moon.

Airline contracts are not complex. This is a false argument. We are doing nothing that hasn't been done hundreds of times before. Our current TA was written with Crayola crayons with the amount of amateur level language it contains. Just wait till BJ gets us in years long grievances because of all the legal loopholes in it. This is why I am critical of BJ pilots. They are far too eager to accept ANY contract because many have literally never read a contract nor written one. As a result, they have no idea what a bad contract is. People are being misled by the one sided ALPA sales shows. This could be a drag and drop contract with hundreds of examples to copy from, plus millions of contracts found in the rest of corporate America. The only argument of the Yes voters is "it's better than what we had before", which is a form of defeatism through complacency. The complacency is the lack of will to educate oneself on what proper contracts ought to be like, in order to discriminate against bad ones like TA 1. TA 1 contains dangerous language in it. Look no further than BJs email today vs. ALPAs email today about duty time. Study carefully JBs legal deception. Expect this kind of thing with a contract because unlike a PEA, a contract is under contract law. Every word matters. This isnt some smoke and mirrors PEA where they can rewrite it whenever they want. There is a huge, insurmountable cost to getting it wrong, and TA1 has it wrong.

The only ones "off their rocker" are the ones who haven't educated themselves on contracts in general (sorry, ALPA propaganda is nowhere near enough knowledge). Have you even bothered to ask why this TA contains an arbitration clause? Are you under the impression that it is required?

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Curtaindriver
07-20-2018, 06:48 AM
So what if it's our first contract? This isn't the maiden voyage of the USS Nautilus or the first time getting to the moon.

Airline contracts are not complex. This is a false argument. We are doing nothing that hasn't been done hundreds of times before. Our current TA was written with Crayola crayons with the amount of amateur level language it contains. Just wait till BJ gets us in years long grievances because of all the legal loopholes in it. This is why I am critical of BJ pilots. They are far too eager to accept ANY contract because many have literally never read a contract nor written one. As a result, they have no idea what a bad contract is. People are being misled by the one sided ALPA sales shows. This could be a drag and drop contract with hundreds of examples to copy from, plus millions of contracts found in the rest of corporate America. The only argument of the Yes voters is "it's better than what we had before", which is a form of defeatism through complacency. The complacency is the lack of will to educate oneself on what proper contracts ought to be like, in order to discriminate against bad ones like TA 1. TA 1 contains dangerous language in it. Look no further than BJs email today vs. ALPAs email today about duty time. Study carefully JBs legal deception. Expect this kind of thing with a contract because unlike a PEA, a contract is under contract law. Every word matters. This isnt some smoke and mirrors PEA where they can rewrite it whenever they want. There is a huge, insurmountable cost to getting it wrong, and TA1 has it wrong.

The only ones "off their rocker" are the ones who haven't educated themselves on contracts in general (sorry, ALPA propaganda is nowhere near enough knowledge). Have you even bothered to ask why this TA contains an arbitration clause? Are you under the impression that it is required?

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


How about you fill us in the last time ALPA had a carrier that bargained a new contract from zero. Think really hard and get back to us.


After that please educate me on your vast contract knowledge, because I just spent 3.5 years educating myself. By your reference to "drag and drop" and then stating JB's legal deception are your asserting that this process should have been easy?



You obviously know zero on how any of this works, and that's ok. Keep screaming nonsense from the roof tops and knock yourself out. Every airline has a grievance committee, every airline has a crooked corporate culture that will try and exploit everything to their advantage. And every airline has guys like you hiding behind screen names acting like they know so much when it is very apparent they know very little. Crayola crayons and "airline contracts are not complex" gave you away.

north and south
07-20-2018, 12:04 PM
I did vote yes for the TA

north and south
07-20-2018, 12:06 PM
Correction

I meant to say I didn’t vote yes for the TA

Rabid Seagull
07-20-2018, 12:16 PM
Correction

I meant to say I didnít vote yes for the TA

Once you get a couple more posts, you'll figure out how this thing works...or you work part time in the White House?:D

seekingblue
07-20-2018, 06:50 PM
I really feel this will be a close vote.

Either way there will be a lot of butthurt.

T-6 days.......

full of luv
07-20-2018, 07:42 PM
I really feel this will be a close vote.

Either way there will be a lot of butthurt.

T-6 days.......

Typically, if everyone claims to hate the TA, it'll pass by 58%

If sone even claim to like a TA, it'll pass with more than 70%

nuball5
07-20-2018, 07:47 PM
I really feel this will be a close vote.

Either way there will be a lot of butthurt.

T-6 days.......

I'm still going with my original prediction....65% yes. Maybe the A220, which essentially null and voids the awful E2 rates will bring it up to 68%.

BeatNavy
07-20-2018, 08:04 PM
I'm still going with my original prediction....65% yes. Maybe the A220, which essentially null and voids the awful E2 rates will bring it up to 68%.

ďNull and voidsĒ them by meaningful numbers in 2022-2023. Right on time for this contract.