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Junglejet4life
07-03-2018, 08:27 PM
Long time lurker on these forums, but I finally feel that I need to make my opinion known in regards to the TA. I have spent the last few days reading the TA, reviewing the FAQís and watching the videos on B6alpa, and have come to the conclusion that I must vote NO on this TA. Here are my reasons:

1. Health insurance. A marginal increase in seed money with essentially the same crappy plan options. Are we still going to cover add-a-dick-tomies?

2. Payrates. The 190 rates are wholly inadequate especially considering the fact that the company may order E-195 e-2ís. Doesnít that bad boy seat around 130 pax? The bus rates need to match the big 3...it is the same plane they fly right? Why should we fly it for less?

3. Profit sharing...if you can even call it that. If my kids shared like bj shares, they would be sent to stand in the corner until I got tired. If we are lucky enough to earn a ps check next year, it might be enough to replace the tires on my 15 year old truck. Meanwhile, DAL pilots are buying airplanes with their ps check.

4. From the looks of it, the company can use augmented crews to fly transcon turns. F that!

5. 18 months for the agreement to be in full force. I understand that there are technology issues, but 18 months? Canít Boeing snd Airbus build an airplane in about 4 months? Iím sure our team of IT pros errr...interns might need some help. Anyone on this forum know anything about programming? Or maybe having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately will suffice.


PasserOGas
07-03-2018, 08:40 PM
I think you just named our next 321.

Combatcraig
07-03-2018, 09:58 PM
Long time lurker on these forums, but I finally feel that I need to make my opinion known in regards to the TA.

Long time lurker? join date? Nice 1st post lol.


queue
07-03-2018, 10:40 PM
So Captains can now take an FO's seat at the company's discretion?? Pp. 88. Doesn't this subvert seniority?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-03-2018, 10:57 PM
Long time lurker on these forums, but I finally feel that I need to make my opinion known in regards to the TA. I have spent the last few days reading the TA, reviewing the FAQís and watching the videos on B6alpa, and have come to the conclusion that I must vote NO on this TA. Here are my reasons:

1. Health insurance. A marginal increase in seed money with essentially the same crappy plan options. Are we still going to cover add-a-dick-tomies?

2. Payrates. The 190 rates are wholly inadequate especially considering the fact that the company may order E-195 e-2ís. Doesnít that bad boy seat around 130 pax? The bus rates need to match the big 3...it is the same plane they fly right? Why should we fly it for less?

3. Profit sharing...if you can even call it that. If my kids shared like bj shares, they would be sent to stand in the corner until I got tired. If we are lucky enough to earn a ps check next year, it might be enough to replace the tires on my 15 year old truck. Meanwhile, DAL pilots are buying airplanes with their ps check.

4. From the looks of it, the company can use augmented crews to fly transcon turns. F that!

5. 18 months for the agreement to be in full force. I understand that there are technology issues, but 18 months? Canít Boeing snd Airbus build an airplane in about 4 months? Iím sure our team of IT pros errr...interns might need some help. Anyone on this forum know anything about programming? Or maybe having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately will suffice.

We already knew that implementation delays were part of their delay tactics. 18 months is enough to do a complete system from scratch. Companies like SAP can do these kinds of projects very quickly because they are all similiar, only with different rules. There are a variety of management techniques used in the industry to deliver results in 1-2 months including design, programming, and testing. Look up Agile development and spirals. I wouldn't accept more than 3 months. It's not like they haven't had 3+ yrs to develop software that uses rules rather than hard coded logic. For example, look at how PBS works. Rather than designing hard rules, they designed a system that lets you program it by defining rules. This gives you extreme flexibility. This is what they ought to do. Otherwise, they may be paying for one part time software engineer to spend no more than 5 hrs a week on modifications. Timeline is a function of payment to developers. 18 months is B.S.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Flytolive
07-04-2018, 05:48 AM
Long time lurker? join date? Nice 1st post lol.Oops. Can't blame a guy for trying.

Bozo the pilot
07-04-2018, 05:56 AM
Long time lurker on these forums, but I finally feel that I need to make my opinion known in regards to the TA. I have spent the last few days reading the TA, reviewing the FAQ’s and watching the videos on B6alpa, and have come to the conclusion that I must vote NO on this TA. Here are my reasons:

1. Health insurance. A marginal increase in seed money with essentially the same crappy plan options. Are we still going to cover add-a-dick-tomies?

2. Payrates. The 190 rates are wholly inadequate especially considering the fact that the company may order E-195 e-2’s. Doesn’t that bad boy seat around 130 pax? The bus rates need to match the big 3...it is the same plane they fly right? Why should we fly it for less?

3. Profit sharing...if you can even call it that. If my kids shared like bj shares, they would be sent to stand in the corner until I got tired. If we are lucky enough to earn a ps check next year, it might be enough to replace the tires on my 15 year old truck. Meanwhile, DAL pilots are buying airplanes with their ps check.

4. From the looks of it, the company can use augmented crews to fly transcon turns. F that!

5. 18 months for the agreement to be in full force. I understand that there are technology issues, but 18 months? Can’t Boeing snd Airbus build an airplane in about 4 months? I’m sure our team of IT pros errr...interns might need some help. Anyone on this forum know anything about programming? Or maybe having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately will suffice.

Is bluepilots not workin out for ya? ;)

So your order of importance goes
1. Health care (understood)
2. Payrates?! (Do you actually put this #2?) thats JV
3. Profit Sharing- meh, but it does show how little B6 cares about us.
4. Transcon turns- Is that what they'll do? Have you spoken to a REP?
5. Implementation. (I understand the frustration)

So "Jetblue Express" seems to worry few of the NO voters.
How about M/A?
Scheduling/RSV/Parings etc...?
Retirement?

Bluedriver
07-04-2018, 06:17 AM
Is bluepilots not workin out for ya? ;)

So your order of importance goes
1. Health care (understood)
2. Payrates?! (Do you actually put this #2?) thats JV
3. Profit Sharing- meh, but it does show how little B6 cares about us.
4. Transcon turns- Is that what they'll do? Have you spoken to a REP?
5. Implementation. (I understand the frustration)

So "Jetblue Express" seems to worry few of the NO voters.
How about M/A?
Scheduling/RSV/Parings etc...?
Retirement?

Yeah! Why do those other high paying airlines even bother with those higher pay rates! Totally JV!

capt707
07-04-2018, 06:18 AM
Long time lurker on these forums, but I finally feel that I need to make my opinion known in regards to the TA. I have spent the last few days reading the TA, reviewing the FAQ’s and watching the videos on B6alpa, and have come to the conclusion that I must vote NO on this TA. Here are my reasons:

1. Health insurance. A marginal increase in seed money with essentially the same crappy plan options. Are we still going to cover add-a-dick-tomies?

2. Payrates. The 190 rates are wholly inadequate especially considering the fact that the company may order E-195 e-2’s. Doesn’t that bad boy seat around 130 pax? The bus rates need to match the big 3...it is the same plane they fly right? Why should we fly it for less?

3. Profit sharing...if you can even call it that. If my kids shared like bj shares, they would be sent to stand in the corner until I got tired. If we are lucky enough to earn a ps check next year, it might be enough to replace the tires on my 15 year old truck. Meanwhile, DAL pilots are buying airplanes with their ps check.

4. From the looks of it, the company can use augmented crews to fly transcon turns. F that!

5. 18 months for the agreement to be in full force. I understand that there are technology issues, but 18 months? Can’t Boeing snd Airbus build an airplane in about 4 months? I’m sure our team of IT pros errr...interns might need some help. Anyone on this forum know anything about programming? Or maybe having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express lately will suffice.

I'm a "No" voter for MY own reasons, but I am also not going to get into a pi$$ing match online or flying the line with someone who chooses to vote yes. Everyone gets a vote and needs to make their own decision.

To address some of the point you made. I agree with the health insurance, that was one of my top issues. It was one of the major reason this place unionized. The gains in this TA are an absolute joke, especially since a high number of pilots don't even use JB insurance! I was expecting something much better!

As far as the pay rates go, specifically the E190. You can thank AA for their crap rates, that's how pattern bargaining goes, which lead us to only a small rate increase. The rest I agree with you on the E195/CSeries/A321 stuff.

I had some major issues with the implementation timeline as well. After all, JetBlue has NEVER met a deadline in it's existence. After talking to a NC member, I started to feel a "little" better. From what I was told 95% of this TA will be implemented at DOS. Apparently the issue lies with software issues and Sabre and implementing all the changes, which takes time, and I get that. The NC apparently was able to tie mgmt's hands in certain sections of the TA that would benefit the company, but not until XYZ is implemented, which the NC believes will help speed up the process and the implementation.

All I can say is, read the TA and all the materials, attend roadshows and read the FAQs and make a decision.

BeatNavy
07-04-2018, 06:26 AM
As far as the pay rates go, specifically the E190. You can thank AA for their crap rates, that's how pattern bargaining goes, which lead us to only a small rate increase. The rest I agree with you on the E195/CSeries/A321 stuff.



Point of order: no, AA is not responsible for our low E190 rates. WE were the launch customer and set essentially a B scale rate. Everyone else had JetBlue to thank when they patterned 190 rates off of us. Throw in the fact that no one else has them, except US Air then AA with 20, and less than 2% of their pilot group flies it and can bid off of it almost immediately. Oh and itís getting parked soon. Bottom line, no other airline has any reason to use negotiating capital on that planeís rates. We are the reason the rates are so low. And we just set the bar way low for the E195-E2, a newer, bigger plane.

Boeingnotgoing
07-04-2018, 07:09 AM
Tell me about it,

You want to talk about swiss cheese model, this thing barely has 1 layer you could drive an A380 (pay rates?) through!

Healthcare is a never ending prostate exam, now with a little extra lubrication. More seed money? Great... better go get snipped cause I cant afford kids.

320 rates are still a few % points behind not to mention others getting raises in less than 6 months! AND 2% COLA!

As soon as we sign this thing a 150 seat 300 will show up the next day, happy jetting!

C-series common type should have a pay more COMMON!!!!

14 duty vs 12 duty, makes me need to go duty.

Once they distribute vacation theyíll cancel all of it for operational necessity, thanks for playing though.

No EML deadhead! Now I want EML with middle seat blocked!

Iíve spent more time writing this post then they did on dependability! Patern barganing? How bout Deltaís 10 day no questions +1?

16% 401k like yesterday and the 5% cliff? Makes me want to jump off a cliff! (Safely into water of course cause itís not cool to joke about it).

Isnít there a required rule to vote NO if less than 300 pages....

And still VDA, RSA, and now PREMIUM!!! Iíll never upgrade with everyone STEALING my work!!!!

I digress...

Junglejet4life
07-04-2018, 08:41 AM
Long time lurker? join date? Nice 1st post lol.

You must be a detective. You donít need to join to read the forums juicer

Junglejet4life
07-04-2018, 08:57 AM
Is bluepilots not workin out for ya? ;)

So your order of importance goes
1. Health care (understood)
2. Payrates?! (Do you actually put this #2?) thats JV
3. Profit Sharing- meh, but it does show how little B6 cares about us.
4. Transcon turns- Is that what they'll do? Have you spoken to a REP?
5. Implementation. (I understand the frustration)

So "Jetblue Express" seems to worry few of the NO voters.
How about M/A?
Scheduling/RSV/Parings etc...?
Retirement?

Obviously, this is not a complete list of my complaints with the TA.

Yes payrates suck. In the next year or so how many airlines will begin negotiations? We will be behind their rates FOREVER if we donít jump DAL, UAL and AAL NOW!!! ON THIS CONTRACT. Maybe you are ok with being a discount pilot, the rest of us are not.

2% cola only puts us further behind. We need 6-7% just to keep pace with how high Trump is going to drive inflation with his stupid policies. Anyone miss Obama yet?

JV language doesnít scare me, but then again I did not go to the queue school of law so maybe I am completely missing the point.

We all better watch rainmaker, Iím sure the $1 per hour retirement medical will actually come out of our pay through payroll ďmistakesĒ. Is there a provision that allows the union to audit payroll? I think not.

Bozo the pilot
07-04-2018, 09:22 AM
Obviously, this is not a complete list of my complaints with the TA.

Yes payrates suck. In the next year or so how many airlines will begin negotiations? We will be behind their rates FOREVER if we donít jump DAL, UAL and AAL NOW!!! ON THIS CONTRACT. Maybe you are ok with being a discount pilot, the rest of us are not.

2% cola only puts us further behind. We need 6-7% just to keep pace with how high Trump is going to drive inflation with his stupid policies. Anyone miss Obama yet?

JV language doesnít scare me, but then again I did not go to the queue school of law so maybe I am completely missing the point.

We all better watch rainmaker, Iím sure the $1 per hour retirement medical will actually come out of our pay through payroll ďmistakesĒ. Is there a provision that allows the union to audit payroll? I think not.
I just realized you're grinding an axe against Trump as well.
Angry at the TA and Trump- "Double threat guy" :D
Good luck with all of this JJG.

queue
07-04-2018, 02:04 PM
Is bluepilots not workin out for ya? ;)

So your order of importance goes
1. Health care (understood)
2. Payrates?! (Do you actually put this #2?) thats JV
3. Profit Sharing- meh, but it does show how little B6 cares about us.
4. Transcon turns- Is that what they'll do? Have you spoken to a REP?
5. Implementation. (I understand the frustration)

So "Jetblue Express" seems to worry few of the NO voters.
How about M/A?
Scheduling/RSV/Parings etc...?
Retirement?


Ah yes.. Bozo's thought framework of false choices.


It doesn't occur to Bozo that many of these items are requirements that are non-negotiable. Since we're at the bottom of the barrel, at a critical juncture in the affairs of future negotiations, many things become requirements rather than priorities.



A priority is something we can give up if we get something else. And thus comes Bozos (and BJ's) strategy of making us accept *some* rules for Pay, or vice-versa.



Folks, this is a corrupt way of thinking. We need Pay & Rules.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

flyboygt
07-05-2018, 01:36 PM
Honest question for all the"no" voters, what are you willing to sacrifice in the current version to get your wants fulfilled?

Remember this is a negotiation not a demand letter. COLA, PS, etc all come at a cost.

As far as Implementation time, I'm just as upset about it but let's take into account that Southwest and Delta voted their TA down and took them 12 and 17 months to renegotiate their TA 2.0. if we take the average of the 2 at 14.5 months and company agrees to 3 month Implementation we arrive at 17.5 months from now at $hitty pay rates falling well behind our peers, no work rule protections, etc. Yes I agree that some items needed to be fixed but the implementation argument can't be fixed at this point. We as a pilot group WILL eat this 18 months one way or another.

queue
07-05-2018, 03:03 PM
Honest question for all the"no" voters, what are you willing to sacrifice in the current version to get your wants fulfilled?

Remember this is a negotiation not a demand letter. COLA, PS, etc all come at a cost.

As far as Implementation time, I'm just as upset about it but let's take into account that Southwest and Delta voted their TA down and took them 12 and 17 months to renegotiate their TA 2.0. if we take the average of the 2 at 14.5 months and company agrees to 3 month Implementation we arrive at 17.5 months from now at $hitty pay rates falling well behind our peers, no work rule protections, etc. Yes I agree that some items needed to be fixed but the implementation argument can't be fixed at this point. We as a pilot group WILL eat this 18 months one way or another.


Close / ammend all TA 1.0 loopholes. Get rid of all vague language. Disallow non-pilot (FAR) mandated duties. Do not replace contract language with outsourcing to "company policies".



Close every single paragraph with an ELSE clause.. e.g.



"if Even More Space window or isle seat is available, pilot shall have the non-retributory option of declining the pairing at his choice of UTO/PTO or accepting a 150% pay override for the duration of the deadhead segment".
Commuting: "pilots shall only be required to provide 2 flight opportunities (OAL) or 1 opportunity (on BJ) which arrives at the base prior to report time. END OF STORY. Company shall not question pilot's choice of flights nor require any additional burdon of the pilot. If the company wishes, it may provide positive space commuting and overnight accomodations (hotel) for the pilot to commute in a day early. However, this shall not be attached to any need to accept the arrangement. The offer shall be completely voluntary of the pilot and cannot be coupled with any consequential action (e.g. UTO/PTO)."

Pay: the minimum needs to be >= SWA at every year and position, with an automatic snap up clause. We should negotiate to achieve at least the average of DL, SWA, United, AA per hour, with an automatic snap up clause to the average, should any of these airlines change their pay.


Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-05-2018, 03:03 PM
Honest question for all the"no" voters, what are you willing to sacrifice in the current version to get your wants fulfilled?

Remember this is a negotiation not a demand letter. COLA, PS, etc all come at a cost.

As far as Implementation time, I'm just as upset about it but let's take into account that Southwest and Delta voted their TA down and took them 12 and 17 months to renegotiate their TA 2.0. if we take the average of the 2 at 14.5 months and company agrees to 3 month Implementation we arrive at 17.5 months from now at $hitty pay rates falling well behind our peers, no work rule protections, etc. Yes I agree that some items needed to be fixed but the implementation argument can't be fixed at this point. We as a pilot group WILL eat this 18 months one way or another.

Nothing. However, I am willing to go without pay for a while if we ever get released to strike.

queue
07-05-2018, 03:10 PM
We as a pilot group WILL eat this 18 months one way or another.


You can't say that as a statement of fact.


1) you can't tell the future,
2) there is nothing legally preventing all options from being on the table. We can demand whatever we want, they can counteroffer with whatever they want. What we get is a function of how painful it is for them. If they don't meet our requirements, we do more informational picketing and our duty as airmen until they start deciding otherwise.


You have to admit that it's also possible that the *perceived* unlikely may happen: e.g. we all vote NO, we raise our demands, they give in because they want something strategic (e.g. CS100), and we get a bigger/better TA 2.0. You must admit that is also a possibility and no one can say one is more likely than another one with facts. Everything is an assumption or pure speculation, no matter how much you look at historic negotiations.



Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-05-2018, 03:11 PM
Nothing. However, I am willing to go without pay for a while if we ever get released to strike.


Even better... future MEC Chairman!!!



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-05-2018, 03:25 PM
Even better... future MEC Chairman!!!



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

If this thing gets voted down I might think of running for something.

If it passes, I can't imagine a worse place to be than sitting across from Joanna's representative at the negotiating table when that time comes.

queue
07-05-2018, 03:44 PM
If this thing gets voted down I might think of running for something.

If it passes, I can't imagine a worse place to be than sitting across from Joanna's representative at the negotiating table when that time comes.


With TA 1.0, each conversation will start with "According to the contract, we have the authority to.........{insert whatever you think is unfair}..". It's got enough vague language to let them do whatever they want.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
07-07-2018, 08:18 AM
If this thing gets voted down I might think of running for something.

If it passes, I can't imagine a worse place to be than sitting across from Joanna's representative at the negotiating table when that time comes.

If it gets voted down, and you some how become a Rep. You'll be sitting across from Johanna and her reps. Assuming they even bother to come back to the table.

jtrain609
07-07-2018, 08:38 AM
If this thing gets voted down I might think of running for something.

If it passes, I can't imagine a worse place to be than sitting across from Joanna's representative at the negotiating table when that time comes.

That's ok, it's a volunteer organization.

Those of us who are willing to fight FOR this pilot group, instead of WITH this pilot group, will step up to the plate and serve, no matter what the challenge is.

PasserOGas
07-07-2018, 01:15 PM
That's ok, it's a volunteer organization.

Those of us who are willing to fight FOR this pilot group, instead of WITH this pilot group, will step up to the plate and serve, no matter what the challenge is.

And apparently cave after one picket.

PasserOGas
07-07-2018, 03:13 PM
If it gets voted down, and you some how become a Rep. You'll be sitting across from Johanna and her reps. Assuming they even bother to come back to the table.

If this goes down our NC will have a new mandate, still hold new aircraft hostage and new hire pay will hurt staffing more every day. We vote yes, what cards will we be holding?

seekingblue
07-07-2018, 03:43 PM
If this goes down our NC will have a new mandate, still hold new aircraft hostage and new hire pay will hurt staffing more every day. We vote yes, what cards will we be holding?

The ones that cannot be changed in an overnight email......

Softpayman
07-07-2018, 03:43 PM
If this goes down our NC will have a new mandate, still hold new aircraft hostage and new hire pay will hurt staffing more every day. We vote yes, what cards will we be holding?

Still hold new aircraft hostage? Say what?

seekingblue
07-07-2018, 03:45 PM
Still hold new aircraft hostage? Say what?

Iím with you. We hold nothing hostage except the ability to solidify our position. We also lack a contract (and the inheritant safety of that contract) for anywhere between 5 months and 3 years.

BunkerF16
07-07-2018, 04:14 PM
Iím with you. We hold nothing hostage except the ability to solidify our position. We also lack a contract (and the inheritant safety of that contract) for anywhere between 5 months and 3 years.


Not necessarily true. If JB needs a known cost structure in place to secure financing to purchase a new aircraft type, delaying the CBA could delay any aircraft deal.

PasserOGas
07-07-2018, 04:43 PM
Still hold new aircraft hostage? Say what?

Where are the C series pay rates in our PEA? If Jetblue wants anything but A320/E190 they don't have pays scales for them. Hence we hold them hostage.


In the TA B6 can do whatever it wants with its fleet and the rates will be decided by an arbitrator, the way you seem to think the entire negotiation process works now, except we really, actually will have no say.

It's high level math I know.

seekingblue
07-07-2018, 04:49 PM
Where are the C series pay rates in our PEA? If Jetblue wants anything but A320/E190 they don't have pays scales for them. Hence we hold them hostage.


In the TA B6 can do whatever it wants with its fleet and the rates will be decided by an arbitrator, the way you seem to think the entire negotiation process works now, except we really, actually will have no say.

It's high level math I know.

Asking an honest question-

Is there a procedure for adding on a fleet type in the PEA?

My understanding is that management could impose whatever pay they want, when they wanted for a new fleet type under the PEA.

At least there is a procedure for adding a new fleet type in the TA.

BeatNavy
07-07-2018, 05:40 PM
Asking an honest question-

Is there a procedure for adding on a fleet type in the PEA?

My understanding is that management could impose whatever pay they want, when they wanted for a new fleet type under the PEA.

At least there is a procedure for adding a new fleet type in the TA.

Wouldn't an LOA be required, just as it is for any other change to status quo while in section 6 negotiations? Similar to that 8% raise we had to vote on.

PasserOGas
07-07-2018, 05:46 PM
Wouldn't an LOA be required, just as it is for any other change to status quo while in section 6 negotiations? Similar to that 8% raise we had to vote on.

That is my understanding. Status quo is a bit**. Lucky for them our NC fixed it for them. :rolleyes:

CaptCoolHand
07-07-2018, 06:11 PM
Or they could park the 190s and sign a CPA with Moxy and we can all individually grieve it through the court system.

Thatíll be great!

Got scope?

PasserOGas
07-08-2018, 06:57 AM
Or they could park the 190s and sign a CPA with Moxy and we can all individually grieve it through the court system.

Thatíll be great!

Got scope?

Or we could vote this in and GUARANTEE ourselves bottom feeding status for the rest of our negotiating cycles, or until we are bought by an airline with pilots who are willing to fight.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 07:51 AM
Or we could vote this in and GUARANTEE ourselves bottom feeding status for the rest of our negotiating cycles, or until we are bought by an airline with pilots who are willing to fight.

I love how weíre bottom feeders because we donít have the BIGGEST hourly rate...

What are you willing to give up for 1% cola and $5/hr?

Scope?
ADG?
Vacation distribution?
Bid divisor smoothing?
Those last three are huge staffing drivers BTW.

We know for sure implementation will not be sped up.

How do you propose we get industry leading in every section in our first TA?
Nearly every RSA is covered. Guys SET in the snow in BOS. THE VDA blue hero squad runs around saving the bluthesphere at every turn.

Whatís your perfect TA POG?

For me 11yr pay 2% COLA to 3% is $161/month.

Imo. Never gonna get back whatís lost in time.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:17 AM
I love how weíre bottom feeders because we donít have the BIGGEST hourly rate...

What are you willing to give up for 1% cola and $5/hr?

Scope?
ADG?
Vacation distribution?
Bid divisor smoothing?
Those last three are huge staffing drivers BTW.

We know for sure implementation will not be sped up.

How do you propose we get industry leading in every section in our first TA?
Nearly every RSA is covered. Guys SET in the snow in BOS. THE VDA blue hero squad runs around saving the bluthesphere at every turn.

Whatís your perfect TA POG?

For me 11yr pay 2% COLA to 3% is $161/month.

Imo. Never gonna get back whatís lost in time.

How does ADG drive staffing? I think it just drives a little bit of credit.

It appears that whatever bit of seniority bump due to staffing for this contract is gonna be offset by slowing aircraft deliveries for the next few years.

Yay.

For the love of all things HOLY, I didn't say vote NO.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 08:38 AM
How does ADG drive staffing? I think it just drives a little bit of credit.

It appears that whatever bit of seniority bump due to staffing for this contract is gonna be offset by slowing aircraft deliveries for the next few years.

Yay.

For the love of all things HOLY, I didn't say vote NO.

ADG drives staffing because it drives credit. How many trips will go from 10-15 hours? 15hours gets you to the bid divisor faster than 10 leaving more trips in the bucket requiring more pilots to fly the same amount of required trips.

There has been no mention of slowing deliveries.

And that wasnít a response to you anyhow. Iím not advocating yes. Just pointing out what I believe is false.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:40 AM
ADG drives staffing because it drives credit. How many trips will go from 10-15 hours? 15hours gets you to the bid divisor faster than 10 leaving more trips in the bucket requiring more pilots to fly the same amount of required trips.

To answer your question, not many. The majority of the famous 10 hour 3-days will get smashed into 4-5 day trips.

And to the extent that the average credit (not block) goes up, they will raise the average line value to zero out additional staffing as long as actual block isn't increasing. I don't recall a maximum ALV in the TA?

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:42 AM
ADG drives staffing because it drives credit. How many trips will go from 10-15 hours? 15hours gets you to the bid divisor faster than 10 leaving more trips in the bucket requiring more pilots to fly the same amount of required trips.

There has been no mention of slowing deliveries.

And that wasnít a response to you anyhow. Iím not advocating yes. Just pointing out what I believe is false.

In your post regarding fleet review it said expect no more than 7-8 deliveries per year for the next couple of years.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 08:46 AM
To answer your question, not many. The majority of the famous 10 hour 3-days will get smashed into 4-5 day trips.

And to the extent that the average credit (not block) goes up, they will raise the average line value to zero out additional staffing as long as actual block isn't increasing. I don't recall a maximum ALV in the TA?

There no max but they must be smoothed or averaged through out the months to prevent the massive peaks and troughs we have now. This prevents running ďhotĒ in summer and the duldrums in October and September. Again driving staffing. Theyíll also be forced to average the bid divisors across bases so then jfk isnít 92 and Mco 78. Driving staffing again in smaller bases.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 08:47 AM
In your post regarding fleet review it said expect no more than 7-8 deliveries per year for the next couple of years.

Must have missed an email.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:52 AM
There no max but they must be smoothed or averaged through out the months to prevent the massive peaks and troughs we have now. This prevents running ďhotĒ in summer and the duldrums in October and September. Again driving staffing. Theyíll also be forced to average the bid divisors across bases so then jfk isnít 92 and Mco 78. Driving staffing again in smaller bases.

I thought we were talking about ADG?

Point is, 10 hour 3 days won't pay 15, because they will be smashed into 4-5 day trips for the most part. So, to the extent that ADG does increase credit on the remaining trips, it does NOT increase block. So they only need to raise the average line value, within TA parameters, and there you have no additional staffing for ADG. ADG is a credit driver, and they can set the ALV for CREDIT as high as they want as long as it's "smoothed".

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 08:53 AM
Must have missed an email.

I guess we'll know in about a week. But it was your post that "leaked" the plan.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 08:59 AM
I guess we'll know in about a week. But it was your post that "leaked" the plan.

What post? I donít know what your talking about there?

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 09:01 AM
I thought we were talking about ADG?

Point is, 10 hour 3 days won't pay 15, because they will be smashed into 4-5 day trips for the most part. So, to the extent that ADG does increase credit on the remaining trips, it does NOT increase block. So they only need to raise the average line value, within TA parameters, and there you have no additional staffing for ADG. ADG is a credit driver, and they can set the ALV for CREDIT as high as they want as long as it's "smoothed".

Some may go the way of 4-5 days but there still has e to be a certain percentage of all day trips. Even if it does this would force efficiency.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 09:06 AM
What post? I donít know what your talking about there?

You posted this in the "fleet review" thread:

Quote:
"Farnborough announcement, complete with flashy PR event of Robin holding a UK and US flag simultaneously:

100 CS100/300 + 50 options (eventually will be CS500)

deliveries begin 2020 from Mobile plant

retire all e190s over 3-5 yr period starting 2020

convert 15 A321 orders to A321LR for delivery 2020-2022

announce LHR as first international city to serve

defer 25 A320neo orders to 2023+ with conversion rights to A321LR(or A321XLR)

probably some additional shuffling of airbus orders, wouldn't expect more than 7-8/yr max deliveries for the next 2-3yrs

announce flexible A320 retirement schedule for 40 airframes to begin in 2020, assist in covering fleet transition from e190->cseries

officially end business relations with Embraer and cancellation of future orders"

Reads more like a leak than a rumor.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 09:07 AM
Some may go the way of 4-5 days but there still has e to be a certain percentage of all day trips. Even if it does this would force efficiency.

Efficiency isn't staffing. I was just asking you why you thought ADG was a staffing driver in case I was missing something.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 09:41 AM
This was a joke... sarcasm at best.

You posted this in the "fleet review" thread:

Quote:
"Farnborough announcement, complete with flashy PR event of Robin holding a UK and US flag simultaneously:

100 CS100/300 + 50 options (eventually will be CS500)

deliveries begin 2020 from Mobile plant

retire all e190s over 3-5 yr period starting 2020

convert 15 A321 orders to A321LR for delivery 2020-2022

announce LHR as first international city to serve

defer 25 A320neo orders to 2023+ with conversion rights to A321LR(or A321XLR)

probably some additional shuffling of airbus orders, wouldn't expect more than 7-8/yr max deliveries for the next 2-3yrs

announce flexible A320 retirement schedule for 40 airframes to begin in 2020, assist in covering fleet transition from e190->cseries

officially end business relations with Embraer and cancellation of future orders"

Reads more like a leak than a rumor.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 09:43 AM
Efficiency isn't staffing. I was just asking you why you thought ADG was a staffing driver in case I was missing something.

I explained that above. Some of those trips may be absorbed not all of them.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 09:49 AM
This was a joke... sarcasm at best.

Did you write it? If not, we'll know (maybe) in about a week....

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 09:51 AM
I explained that above. Some of those trips may be absorbed not all of them.

And I explained that since it's credit and not an increase in actual block, they need only raise the ALV to zero out any staffing increase due to ADG.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 10:52 AM
And I explained that since it's credit and not an increase in actual block, they need only raise the ALV to zero out any staffing increase due to ADG.

So youíre saying that we will be able to eliminate the need for rig all together?

Wonít happen. The ADG will require jb to hire more bodies.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 11:27 AM
So youíre saying that we will be able to eliminate the need for rig all together?

Wonít happen. The ADG will require jb to hire more bodies.

No, not saying that. They will eliminate most of the 10 hour 3-days, easily, by smashing them into 4-5 day trips.

The remaining 10 hour 3 days will pay 15 and raise the average credit value. Since it does NOT raise actual block, it does not require more bodies to fly since it does not push any 117 times. The company will raise the ALV for bidding purposes since the average CREDIT per trip will be higher. Again, since ADG does not increase block times, no 117 issues and the TA let's the company set any ALV they want, as long as it's "smoothed".

BluesClues
07-08-2018, 11:42 AM
No, not saying that. They will eliminate most of the 10 hour 3-days, easily, by smashing them into 4-5 day trips.

The remaining 10 hour 3 days will pay 15 and raise the average credit value. Since it does NOT raise actual block, it does not require more bodies to fly since it does not push any 117 times. The company will raise the ALV for bidding purposes since the average CREDIT per trip will be higher. Again, since ADG does not increase block times, no 117 issues and the TA let's the company set any ALV they want, as long as it's "smoothed".

There are some legitimate gripes with this thing but I wish some of you guys would at least read the language before coming on here and making statements like you know what you're talking about. From the TA:

25.I. Bidding Parameters

1. Average Line Value (ALV)
The ALV is the number of credit hours established by the Company that is the projected average of all Lineholder PBS awards, for a Status (e.g., A320/321 Captain, E190 F/O), for a Bid Period. The ALV shall be between seventy-four (74:00) and eighty-six (86:00) hours (inclusive) and may be expressed in hours and minutes.

2. Targeted Line Value (TLV)
The TLV is a twelve (12) Bid Period rolling average of the ALV for a Status. The TLV shall be between seventy-seven (77:00) and eighty-four and one half (84:30) hours (inclusive).

pilotpayne
07-08-2018, 01:35 PM
There are some legitimate gripes with this thing but I wish some of you guys would at least read the language before coming on here and making statements like you know what you're talking about. From the TA:

25.I. Bidding Parameters

1. Average Line Value (ALV)
The ALV is the number of credit hours established by the Company that is the projected average of all Lineholder PBS awards, for a Status (e.g., A320/321 Captain, E190 F/O), for a Bid Period. The ALV shall be between seventy-four (74:00) and eighty-six (86:00) hours (inclusive) and may be expressed in hours and minutes.

2. Targeted Line Value (TLV)
The TLV is a twelve (12) Bid Period rolling average of the ALV for a Status. The TLV shall be between seventy-seven (77:00) and eighty-four and one half (84:30) hours (inclusive).

What fun would that be.
Also they canít turn everything into a 4 or 5 day as we have language that allows for only a certain %

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 02:58 PM
There are some legitimate gripes with this thing but I wish some of you guys would at least read the language before coming on here and making statements like you know what you're talking about. From the TA:

25.I. Bidding Parameters

1. Average Line Value (ALV)
The ALV is the number of credit hours established by the Company that is the projected average of all Lineholder PBS awards, for a Status (e.g., A320/321 Captain, E190 F/O), for a Bid Period. The ALV shall be between seventy-four (74:00) and eighty-six (86:00) hours (inclusive) and may be expressed in hours and minutes.

2. Targeted Line Value (TLV)
The TLV is a twelve (12) Bid Period rolling average of the ALV for a Status. The TLV shall be between seventy-seven (77:00) and eighty-four and one half (84:30) hours (inclusive).

Good, I couldn't remember if there was a max, and apparently neither did cool.

Bluedriver
07-08-2018, 02:59 PM
What fun would that be.
Also they canít turn everything into a 4 or 5 day as we have language that allows for only a certain %

I didn't say every 3 day, I said the 10 hour 3-days. There have always been, and still will be plenty of regular 3 days.

pilotpayne
07-08-2018, 03:20 PM
I didn't say every 3 day, I said the 10 hour 3-days. There have always been, and still will be plenty of regular 3 days.

And I didnít say anything about 3 days specifically I said ďeverythingĒ
Arenít language games fun. :)
My real point is that the scheduling section did a pretty good job of attempting to prevent the company from getting away with a bunch of stuff. Just live vacations will be evenly distributed through every week of the month.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 03:48 PM
Good, I couldn't remember if there was a max, and apparently neither did cool.

True story👍🏼

PasserOGas
07-08-2018, 04:17 PM
I love how weíre bottom feeders because we donít have the BIGGEST hourly rate...

What are you willing to give up for 1% cola and $5/hr?

Scope?
ADG?
Vacation distribution?
Bid divisor smoothing?
Those last three are huge staffing drivers BTW.

We know for sure implementation will not be sped up.

How do you propose we get industry leading in every section in our first TA?
Nearly every RSA is covered. Guys SET in the snow in BOS. THE VDA blue hero squad runs around saving the bluthesphere at every turn.

Whatís your perfect TA POG?

For me 11yr pay 2% COLA to 3% is $161/month.

Imo. Never gonna get back whatís lost in time.

False choices. We need to fight until we get a full market rate contract, including work rules AND compensation.

We are bottom feeders by definition since we will be voting yes to bottom of the barrel compensation on DAY 1.

CaptCoolHand
07-08-2018, 04:36 PM
False choices. We need to fight until we get a full market rate contract, including work rules AND compensation.

We are bottom feeders by definition since we will be voting yes to bottom of the barrel compensation on DAY 1.

Thatís false. Actually, day one weíll be better off than many of our peers in many areas. Worse here better there.

Whatís your perfect TA?

PasserOGas
07-08-2018, 04:55 PM
Thatís false. Actually, day one weíll be better off than many of our peers in many areas. Worse here better there.

Whatís your perfect TA?

A market rate one. In every section. Think of all the sub standard sections in this TA, then fix them. That is my perfect TA.

seekingblue
07-08-2018, 05:22 PM
Thatís false. Actually, day one weíll be better off than many of our peers in many areas. Worse here better there.

Whatís your perfect TA?

Plenty of "no voters" who I consider friends. All are smart, intelligent, and are good people trying to do what's best for their family.

None of those people refered to the collective JetBlue pilot group as "wannabe scabs." Like POG did.

Look. We are all on the same side. We support the union and want to be compensated well for what we do.

POG and Queue want Delta +1 in every section or they will vote no. IMHO people like Queue and POG confuse industry standard for industry leading.

Mattio
07-08-2018, 06:14 PM
Plenty of "no voters" who I consider friends. All are smart, intelligent, and are good people trying to do what's best for their family.

None of those people refered to the collective JetBlue pilot group as "wannabe scabs." Like POG did.

Look. We are all on the same side. We support the union and want to be compensated well for what we do.

POG and Queue want Delta +1 in every section or they will vote no. IMHO people like Queue and POG confuse industry standard for industry leading.

I respectfully disagree when it comes to Queue. Some of his posts could give the impression that he's a fanatic but if you read all of his posts, the enthusiasm stems from well thought out positions and his more colorful posts are, at least in part, a reaction to the barrage from fanatics on the "other side". We could start a chorus of "he started it!". You see a lot of emotions on both sides lately. (I know we are all, well most, actually on the same side.) He, like me, wants some key changes before voting yes but I don't think he wants Delta +1. I guess we'll see what he says.

PasserOGas
07-08-2018, 07:33 PM
Plenty of "no voters" who I consider friends. All are smart, intelligent, and are good people trying to do what's best for their family.

None of those people refered to the collective JetBlue pilot group as "wannabe scabs." Like POG did.

Look. We are all on the same side. We support the union and want to be compensated well for what we do.

POG and Queue want Delta +1 in every section or they will vote no. IMHO people like Queue and POG confuse industry standard for industry leading.

I never said all pilots at jetblue are wanna be scabs.

The bottom feeders, happy to work for less and bring down the profession types are wanna be scabs. If you feel that describes you, well, #sorrynotsorry.

We happen to have a large group of them hense us even talking about this obviously terrible TA passing after 6 months of labor dispute and 1 picket.

nuball5
07-08-2018, 08:37 PM
I never said all pilots at jetblue are wanna be scabs.

The bottom feeders, happy to work for less and bring down the profession types are wanna be scabs. If you feel that describes you, well, #sorrynotsorry.

We happen to have a large group of them hense us even talking about this obviously terrible TA passing after 6 months of labor dispute and 1 picket.

So if this T/A passes, the majority of the pilot group would be willing to cross a picket line....do I have that correct? Such a bold statement, you almost have to respect it.

PasserOGas
07-09-2018, 04:55 AM
So if this T/A passes, the majority of the pilot group would be willing to cross a picket line....do I have that correct? Such a bold statement, you almost have to respect it.

No, a lot of yes voters I have flown with have literally no idea what they are voting on. They watched the videos, which minimize or don't even mention all the really bad sections of the TA. When I point out all the things B6ALPA is trying to sneak through I usually get a look of shock and a "******* that I am voting NO!"

Then there is the guy worried that we are leaving money behind by voting no. He is usually convinced that B6ALPA gave up all our leverage and now we are defeated. He would fight, but believes this group would just crumble and accept less. I don't completely disagree with him. We have a lot of wanna be scabs here.

If you are happy voting yes, KNOWING this contract is sub par, bringing down all of our peers at the bargaining table because of some small gains from where we sit now, yes you are a wanna be scab. You are doing the same work as a scab would be doing, undermining the piloting profession out of greed.

Bozo the pilot
07-09-2018, 06:12 AM
No, a lot of yes voters I have flown with have literally no idea what they are voting on. They watched the videos, which minimize or don't even mention all the really bad sections of the TA. When I point out all the things B6ALPA is trying to sneak through I usually get a look of shock and a "******* that I am voting NO!"

Then there is the guy worried that we are leaving money behind by voting no. He is usually convinced that B6ALPA gave up all our leverage and now we are defeated. He would fight, but believes this group would just crumble and accept less. I don't completely disagree with him. We have a lot of wanna be scabs here.

If you are happy voting yes, KNOWING this contract is sub par, bringing down all of our peers at the bargaining table because of some small gains from where we sit now, yes you are a wanna be scab. You are doing the same work as a scab would be doing, undermining the piloting profession out of greed.

So- the YES voter is acting in "greed"? Using that logic, you are admitting that it is a greatly beneficial T/A. I thought this was a "terrible T/A"?
Isnt the greedy action to vote NO and hold out for more Pog?
3%/Profit Sharing/Cheaper Health Care/more PTO/ Bonus?
Or did you mean instant gratification? Greed is good. ;)

I do think its wonderful that you care so much for your peers and the industry, in general though.

PasserOGas
07-09-2018, 07:54 AM
So- the YES voter is acting in "greed"? Using that logic, you are admitting that it is a greatly beneficial T/A. I thought this was a "terrible T/A"?
Isnt the greedy action to vote NO and hold out for more Pog?
3%/Profit Sharing/Cheaper Health Care/more PTO/ Bonus?
Or did you mean instant gratification? Greed is good. ;)

I do think its wonderful that you care so much for your peers and the industry, in general though.

This TA is a small improvement from where we are now. I never said otherwise. If you want to call it short term gratification, sure.

However, it is far, far, far below market rate. It raises the bar in pretty much zero areas. Our peers will have a tough time negotiating against it and it thus drags down the industry.

The only good news is that the big 4 pilots have a spine, so while we may hold their raises in check I doubt their pay will be cut. Also, unlike some of us they probably won't be fooled by 2 "shiny penny" sections.

hyperboy
07-09-2018, 08:58 AM
This TA is a small improvement from where we are now. I never said otherwise. If you want to call it short term gratification, sure.

However, it is far, far, far below market rate. It raises the bar in pretty much zero areas. Our peers will have a tough time negotiating against it and it thus drags down the industry.

The only good news is that the big 4 pilots have a spine, so while we may hold their raises in check I doubt their pay will be cut. Also, unlike some of us they probably won't be fooled by 2 "shiny penny" sections.

Unfortunately you either have no idea what you are talking about or you chose not to see the plenty of gains that were made in this TA.

SCOPE being just one......Which we have none right now.

I will throw another one around next at 00:59...cha ching!

Those two raise the bar your Myth has been BUSTED. DELTA has lots of lil' scope in the form of RJ's bigger than the old DC-9 trash 10's.

pilotpayne
07-09-2018, 09:11 AM
No, a lot of yes voters I have flown with have literally no idea what they are voting on. They watched the videos, which minimize or don't even mention all the really bad sections of the TA. When I point out all the things B6ALPA is trying to sneak through I usually get a look of shock and a "******* that I am voting NO!"

Then there is the guy worried that we are leaving money behind by voting no. He is usually convinced that B6ALPA gave up all our leverage and now we are defeated. He would fight, but believes this group would just crumble and accept less. I don't completely disagree with him. We have a lot of wanna be scabs here.

If you are happy voting yes, KNOWING this contract is sub par, bringing down all of our peers at the bargaining table because of some small gains from where we sit now, yes you are a wanna be scab. You are doing the same work as a scab would be doing, undermining the piloting profession out of greed.


What a joke. I wouldnít throw around the word scab so easily.

nuball5
07-09-2018, 10:16 AM
No, a lot of yes voters I have flown with have literally no idea what they are voting on. They watched the videos, which minimize or don't even mention all the really bad sections of the TA. When I point out all the things B6ALPA is trying to sneak through I usually get a look of shock and a "******* that I am voting NO!"

Then there is the guy worried that we are leaving money behind by voting no. He is usually convinced that B6ALPA gave up all our leverage and now we are defeated. He would fight, but believes this group would just crumble and accept less. I don't completely disagree with him. We have a lot of wanna be scabs here.

If you are happy voting yes, KNOWING this contract is sub par, bringing down all of our peers at the bargaining table because of some small gains from where we sit now, yes you are a wanna be scab. You are doing the same work as a scab would be doing, undermining the piloting profession out of greed.

Since you wanna blur the lines and use the term scab so carelessly Gas Passer....what does that make you? Jetblue for 18 years has trailed its peers in compensation and benefits. Is someone that's been on the Jetblue seniority list a scab? Since you wanna use that term loosely, I guess that you could argue that employment at Jetblue, means you support substandard wages right? Of course not! Unless we're talking about crossing an actual picket line during a Strike, I'd recommend finding a new term to use.

PasserOGas
07-09-2018, 10:37 AM
Since you wanna blur the lines and use the term scab so carelessly Gas Passer....what does that make you? Jetblue for 18 years has trailed its peers in compensation and benefits. Is someone that's been on the Jetblue seniority list a scab? Since you wanna use that term loosely, I guess that you could argue that employment at Jetblue, means you support substandard wages right? Of course not! Unless we're talking about crossing an actual picket line during a Strike, I'd recommend finding a new term to use.

I only agreed to come here AFTER ALPA came in. I thought maybe the pilots here had learned their lesson and wanted to make this place into a real airline.

Again, not everyone at jetblue is a wanna be scab, but we have got quite a few. Sorry if the truth hurts.

nuball5
07-09-2018, 10:43 AM
I only agreed to come here AFTER ALPA came in. I thought maybe the pilots here had learned their lesson and wanted to make this place into a real airline.

Again, not everyone at jetblue is a wanna be scab, but we have got quite a few. Sorry if the truth hurts.

Alright....to me a scab is someone that has already crossed a picket line, but you're entitled to your opinion.

PasserOGas
07-09-2018, 10:54 AM
Alright....to me a scab is someone that has already crossed a picket line, but you're entitled to your opinion.

From Websters dictionary:

a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

Section 1:All the pilots who voted no to ALPA twice.

Section 4. Debatable since we are union, but working for much less than other union carriers fits the spirit IMO.

nuball5
07-09-2018, 11:00 AM
From Websters dictionary:

a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

Section 1:All the pilots who voted no to ALPA twice.

Section 4. Debatable since we are union, but working for much less than other union carriers fits the spirit IMO.

Such a stretch....I and others gave you our opinion on it and you did as well. Back to the TA.

PasserOGas
07-09-2018, 11:12 AM
Such a stretch....I and others gave you our opinion on it and you did as well. Back to the TA.

Fair enough. Seekingblue just gets super butthurt about it and keeps bringing it up as if it means my opinions on the TA are wrong.

Gordie H
07-09-2018, 11:27 AM
I respectfully disagree when it comes to Queue. Some of his posts could give the impression that he's a fanatic but if you read all of his posts, the enthusiasm stems from well thought out positions and his more colorful posts are, at least in part, a reaction to the barrage from fanatics on the "other side". We could start a chorus of "he started it!". You see a lot of emotions on both sides lately. (I know we are all, well most, actually on the same side.) He, like me, wants some key changes before voting yes but I don't think he wants Delta +1. I guess we'll see what he says.

Yeah, I got the impression he was fanatical (delusional?) when heÖ.compared the cancelation of the picket to Operation Rolling Thunder, compared the company to Enron, called all of us sheep despite being too afraid to say he works hereÖ.to name a few. I donít read his ramblings anymore, but I also recall he had a peculiar interest in the dependability policyÖhmmm.

But expressing those kinds of opinions is fine by me (laughable, but hey, this is the U.S.A). But when you use a POW as a prop in your postÖ.youíre dead to me.

Junglejet4life
07-09-2018, 11:29 AM
My thread really caught on. Keep it going juice boxes!

SAY NO WAY TO THE TA

CaptCoolHand
07-09-2018, 11:35 AM
Man Iím glad I put the time into the organizing committees so that a class act like you would agree to come here. With all your offers to pick us! My god we are so lucky. Iím so glad you didnít go to DAL AA or UAL. I mean for you to agree to come here after jetblue sought you out of the crowd and begged your assistance. Hats huge. Someday i hope you can make us a real airline.

I only agreed to come here AFTER ALPA came in. I thought maybe the pilots here had learned their lesson and wanted to make this place into a real airline.

Again, not everyone at jetblue is a wanna be scab, but we have got quite a few. Sorry if the truth hurts.

hyperboy
07-09-2018, 12:15 PM
From Websters dictionary:

a : a contemptible person
b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

Section 1:All the pilots who voted no to ALPA twice.

Section 4. Debatable since we are union, but working for much less than other union carriers fits the spirit IMO.

What's the word for someone who hides behind a screen name

Junglejet4life
07-09-2018, 12:42 PM
What's the word for someone who hides behind a screen name

A forum participant

Southerner
07-09-2018, 01:33 PM
What's the word for someone who hides behind a screen name

I don't think this site allows that word.

PasserOGas
07-09-2018, 03:57 PM
Man Iím glad I put the time into the organizing committees so that a class act like you would agree to come here. With all your offers to pick us! My god we are so lucky. Iím so glad you didnít go to DAL AA or UAL. I mean for you to agree to come here after jetblue sought you out of the crowd and begged your assistance. Hats huge. Someday i hope you can make us a real airline.

I'm sorry you put all that work into organizing just to settle for PEA 2018 four years later.

pilotpayne
07-09-2018, 06:21 PM
Man Iím glad I put the time into the organizing committees so that a class act like you would agree to come here. With all your offers to pick us! My god we are so lucky. Iím so glad you didnít go to DAL AA or UAL. I mean for you to agree to come here after jetblue sought you out of the crowd and begged your assistance. Hats huge. Someday i hope you can make us a real airline.


We will never be a real airline with guys like me and you around.

flyboygt
07-09-2018, 07:39 PM
My thread really caught on. Keep it going juice boxes!

SAY NO WAY TO THE TA

If a Yes voter is a "juice box" what does that make you NO voters for wanting to send it back for MORE?

Junglejet4life
07-09-2018, 08:20 PM
If a Yes voter is a "juice box" what does that make you NO voters for wanting to send it back for MORE?

Men with large clam hammers

Bozo the pilot
07-10-2018, 11:18 AM
My thread really caught on. Keep it going juice boxes!

SAY NO WAY TO THE TA

I love the red lettering JJ. What else can you do with Windows 95?
Give us more. ;)

queue
07-11-2018, 07:02 PM
I don't think this site allows that word.

Didn't HyperBoy work directly for management? Didn't he work in recruiting for a long time?

Imagine how his friends could threaten you if they knew who you were......

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-11-2018, 07:07 PM
Unfortunately you either have no idea what you are talking about or you chose not to see the plenty of gains that were made in this TA.

SCOPE being just one......Which we have none right now.

I will throw another one around next at 00:59...cha ching!

Those two raise the bar your Myth has been BUSTED. DELTA has lots of lil' scope in the form of RJ's bigger than the old DC-9 trash 10's.

Why are you treating scope like it's a huge win? It's barely CATCHING UP. It's also not more important than pay... why should we make compromises on things that ought to be bare minimums? We should be bargaining on the choice of fish, beef, or vegan for Mint meals, not on stuff we deserve and should not compromise on.

We're professionals - start acting like it.

If you want to act like a regional outfit, that is all you will ever get.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-11-2018, 07:10 PM
Since you wanna blur the lines and use the term scab so carelessly Gas Passer....what does that make you? Jetblue for 18 years has trailed its peers in compensation and benefits. Is someone that's been on the Jetblue seniority list a scab? Since you wanna use that term loosely, I guess that you could argue that employment at Jetblue, means you support substandard wages right? Of course not! Unless we're talking about crossing an actual picket line during a Strike, I'd recommend finding a new term to use.

Plenty...

Defeatist

Apologist

Regional mindset

Low information voter

Loser

Sheeple

Bombastic simpleton

Quitter

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

flyboygt
07-11-2018, 09:09 PM
Why are you treating scope like it's a huge win? It's barely CATCHING UP. It's also not more important than pay... why should we make compromises on things that ought to be bare minimums? We should be bargaining on the choice of fish, beef, or vegan for Mint meals, not on stuff we deserve and should not compromise on.

We're professionals - start acting like it.

If you want to act like a regional outfit, that is all you will ever get.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Some of us that COMPREHEND what scope means and it absolutely is worth more than a dollar per hour (at this point). It was the number 1 thing in all of my survey answers. Just because you don't believe it is worth it doesn't mean others don't. Quit trying to sell your NO vote. The NC got us the 2nd best scope behind SWA which is tough in the new atmosphere in which we work. Every day scope slaps AA, DAL, UAL and AK in the face. Someone else does THEIR flying. Not a code share. Their in house flying.
Regionals now fly 76+seat jets that are flying into our markets. Don't believe me? Go to LGA and look at the SKYWEST E175 painted in AK colors. Don't you think AK mainline should be flying into that market?
I don't want to see one of our "business partners" get a 135 seat A220 because we currently have ZERO scope.

If you are a professional then I'm the CEO.
You have to be the least professional person I've ever seen. Reference your last post.

queue
07-11-2018, 09:17 PM
Some of us that COMPREHEND what scope means and it absolutely is worth more than a dollar per hour (at this point). It was the number 1 thing in all of my survey answers. Just because you don't believe it is worth it doesn't mean others don't. Quit trying to sell your NO vote. The NC got us the 2nd best scope behind SWA which is tough in the new atmosphere in which we work. Every day scope slaps AA, DAL, UAL and AK in the face. Someone else does THEIR flying. Not a code share. Their in house flying.
Regionals now fly 76+seat jets that are flying into our markets. Don't believe me? Go to LGA and look at the SKYWEST E175 painted in AK colors. Don't you think AK mainline should be flying into that market?
I don't want to see one of our "business partners" get a 135 seat A220 because we currently have ZERO scope.


I don't disagree that we need scope. I'm 110% in agreement with you...


However, scope alone isn't going to seal the deal. Scope is ONE of MANY requirements that must be met, one of which is pay. Another one is a more structured legal language in the TA, which is missing.



This is a positive contract. It doesn't constrain the company. In the case of a scenario not covered in the contract, the TA authorizes the company to do whatever they want.


We need a negative contract. One that says "you can't do it unless we authorize it or it's written".


The NC sold you out. The "dependability policy" is still in there.. WORSE than before, in fact, since now it has the teeth of Contract Law.



You are marrying the first girl you talk to. We can win. We can do much much better. We hardly put up any resistance at all and you think we got the best we could've possibly gotten?



Sorry but this TA has BIG deficiencies, pay being one of them, but certainly not the only red flag. It's best we VOTE NO then fix the gaping holes. Yes.. keep the scope but fix all the rest (e.g. even simple things like the definition of "positive contact" via JetCrw (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2632944-post545.html)).



Why exactly should we be so quick to accept this TA?





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

flyboygt
07-11-2018, 09:40 PM
I don't disagree that we need scope. I'm 110% in agreement with you...


However, scope alone isn't going to seal the deal. Scope is ONE of MANY requirements that must be met, one of which is pay. Another one is a more structured legal language in the TA, which is missing.



This is a positive contract. It doesn't constrain the company. In the case of a scenario not covered in the contract, the TA authorizes the company to do whatever they want.


We need a negative contract. One that says "you can't do it unless we authorize it or it's written".


The NC sold you out. The "dependability policy" is still in there.. WORSE than before, in fact, since now it has the teeth of Contract Law.



You are marrying the first girl you talk to. We can win. We can do much much better. We hardly put up any resistance at all and you think we got the best we could've possibly gotten?



Sorry but this TA has BIG deficiencies, pay being one of them, but certainly not the only red flag. It's best we VOTE NO then fix the gaping holes. Yes.. keep the scope but fix all the rest (e.g. even simple things like the definition of "positive contact" via JetCrw (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2632944-post545.html)).



Why exactly should we be so quick to accept this TA?





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Quick to accept? It's been 3.5 years. BJ has a proven track record that they don't care how long it takes. We all have our "belief" of why they suddenly came to the table, but the reality is that they no one really knows why. My belief is that summer flying would be affected.. which means that it would take another year to get another offer that will be minor improvements, where if signed would be 12 to 18 months Implementation and all the same relative bs we already have. So in my mind, spending another year+ at our current POS PEA it's not worth it. To get (what I think would be) a "will do this or else" clause is a better fight in 2022 along with new pay rates where I would get a massive back pay check for the duration of negotiations. Not worth the fight (to me) now when my family and I will be much better off than we are today under the PEA.

queue
07-11-2018, 11:29 PM
Quick to accept? It's been 3.5 years. BJ has a proven track record that they don't care how long it takes. We all have our "belief" of why they suddenly came to the table, but the reality is that they no one really knows why. My belief is that summer flying would be affected.. which means that it would take another year to get another offer that will be minor improvements, where if signed would be 12 to 18 months Implementation and all the same relative bs we already have. So in my mind, spending another year+ at our current POS PEA it's not worth it. To get (what I think would be) a "will do this or else" clause is a better fight in 2022 along with new pay rates where I would get a massive back pay check for the duration of negotiations. Not worth the fight (to me) now when my family and I will be much better off than we are today under the PEA.

Quick to accept = how long have WE had access to the TA? Nothing except the legal language matters.

So if you have no real insight beyond guessing? Why not attempt to fix the TA rather than speculate what would have been?

12-18 months? Speculation by the white flag wavers.

Back pay? Did you get back pay this time? Last time I checked, they took away your profit sharing and gave you back only a small fraction of it.

At some point we as pilots have to stop being short sighted to only see what is directly in front of us. If you're going to be selfish, at least be GOOD at it. You could get so much more. You're not starving even at the current pay rate. You have the ability to put principle above unguided/uncritical short term greed. You choose the quicker path, not the best path. We will never be treated as professionals until we get the Regional Pilot, Low Rent mentality out of our heads. This is a cost neutral contract. Everyone else will be beating us again in a year or two. Then will your financial argument still hold water? Remember, you're not starving now....

Why do Delta and SWA pilots turn down TAs?

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

flyboygt
07-12-2018, 05:50 AM
Quick to accept = how long have WE had access to the TA? Nothing except the legal language matters.

So if you have no real insight beyond guessing? Why not attempt to fix the TA rather than speculate what would have been?

12-18 months? Speculation by the white flag wavers.

Back pay? Did you get back pay this time? Last time I checked, they took away your profit sharing and gave you back only a small fraction of it.

At some point we as pilots have to stop being short sighted to only see what is directly in front of us. If you're going to be selfish, at least be GOOD at it. You could get so much more. You're not starving even at the current pay rate. You have the ability to put principle above unguided/uncritical short term greed. You choose the quicker path, not the best path. We will never be treated as professionals until we get the Regional Pilot, Low Rent mentality out of our heads. This is a cost neutral contract. Everyone else will be beating us again in a year or two. Then will your financial argument still hold water? Remember, you're not starving now....

Why do Delta and SWA pilots turn down TAs?

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

You don't get back pay right now because you do not have a CBA. Once a CBA is in place you will get back pay for this type of TA bargaining. DAL and SWA had a CBA in place which is why they got back pay when it was shot down for 2.0
Since every other thread here and BP continually compares us to DAL and SWA I did the same for a time frame to get a new TA.

BeatNavy
07-12-2018, 06:11 AM
You don't get back pay right now because you do not have a CBA. Once a CBA is in place you will get back pay for this type of TA bargaining. DAL and SWA had a CBA in place which is why they got back pay when it was shot down for 2.0
Since every other thread here and BP continually compares us to DAL and SWA I did the same for a time frame to get a new TA.

Delta got retro on TA2. They didn't have to. It was negotiated (and many didnít think theyíd get it). In fact a lot of the yes to TA1 people (including DALPA I believe) said they probably wouldnít be able to get it if they voted down TA1. Having a CBA in place doesnít magically get you retro. We donít have a CBA. But we can still negotiate a signing bonus (which we did) in lieu of retro. Do I think weíd get much more of a SB? Prob not. Could it make up for 6-12 more months of negotiating? Maybe. And I think negotiating a higher signing bonus pales in comparison to the real issues with this TA (rates/PS/cola/DRO/some language) and is much lower on my priority list of things to fix if this miraculously gets voted down (donít think thatíll happen).

I only commented because I feel itís worth pointing out that whether you call it retro or a signing bonus, a CBA doesnít magically get it for you. No matter if you have a CBA, PEA, or nothing at all, everythingís negotiable. When the company drags out our next TA, or if we get a TA in 2022 and vote it down and donít get another until 2023-2025, we wonít automatically get retro just because we have a CBA in place.

todd1200
07-12-2018, 06:37 AM
Delta got retro on TA2. They didn't have to. It was negotiated (and many didn’t think they’d get it). In fact a lot of the yes to TA1 people (including DALPA I believe) said they probably wouldn’t be able to get it if they voted down TA1. Having a CBA in place doesn’t magically get you retro. We don’t have a CBA. But we can still negotiate a signing bonus (which we did) in lieu of retro. Do I think we’d get much more of a SB? Prob not. Could it make up for 6-12 more months of negotiating? Maybe. And I think negotiating a higher signing bonus pales in comparison to the real issues with this TA (rates/PS/cola/DRO/some language) and is much lower on my priority list of things to fix if this miraculously gets voted down (don’t think that’ll happen).

I only commented because I feel it’s worth pointing out that whether you call it retro or a signing bonus, a CBA doesn’t magically get it for you. No matter if you have a CBA, PEA, or nothing at all, everything’s negotiable. When the company drags out our next TA, or if we get a TA in 2022 and vote it down and don’t get another until 2023-2025, we won’t automatically get retro just because we have a CBA in place.

Was DL even past the amenable date of their previous contract when they voted down TA1? I think Retro is just to make it as though the new rates were effective when the previous CBA became amenable.

Coming up with a TA during early openers, while the current CBA hasn’t even become amenable yet is a much different place than we’re in now. (I can’t remember if that was the case for DL or not, but I believe they were fairly close to their amenable date)

flyboygt
07-12-2018, 06:37 AM
Delta got retro on TA2. They didn't have to. It was negotiated (and many didnít think theyíd get it). In fact a lot of the yes to TA1 people (including DALPA I believe) said they probably wouldnít be able to get it if they voted down TA1. Having a CBA in place doesnít magically get you retro. We donít have a CBA. But we can still negotiate a signing bonus (which we did) in lieu of retro. Do I think weíd get much more of a SB? Prob not. Could it make up for 6-12 more months of negotiating? Maybe. And I think negotiating a higher signing bonus pales in comparison to the real issues with this TA (rates/PS/cola/DRO/some language) and is much lower on my priority list of things to fix if this miraculously gets voted down (donít think thatíll happen).

I only commented because I feel itís worth pointing out that whether you call it retro or a signing bonus, a CBA doesnít magically get it for you. No matter if you have a CBA, PEA, or nothing at all, everythingís negotiable. When the company drags out our next TA, or if we get a TA in 2022 and vote it down and donít get another until 2023-2025, we wonít automatically get retro just because we have a CBA in place.

Ok I will agree with that.

As far as the bonus goes it will not come close to making up for the lost compensation I will have. Even if my bonus doubles it would make up less than 1/3 of my lost takes home compensation not to mention the 401k loss. I personally would have to get more than the Spirit bonus to make up for lost wages over the next year of negotiations.
I don't think that is a number that this company is willing to part with.

BeatNavy
07-12-2018, 07:56 AM
Ok I will agree with that.

As far as the bonus goes it will not come close to making up for the lost compensation I will have. Even if my bonus doubles it would make up less than 1/3 of my lost takes home compensation not to mention the 401k loss. I personally would have to get more than the Spirit bonus to make up for lost wages over the next year of negotiations.
I don't think that is a number that this company is willing to part with.

As a year 3 guy, if we negotiated another 12 months and came back with the avg rates of the big 3, SWA, and ALK, and improved profit sharing and cola (assume current formula but remove the cliff, and 3% cola), Iíd make it up over the life of this contract for sure, and then some. Depending on timing and the signing bonus Iíd make it up in 12-18 months from now. Whether or not we could get that (and when) is anybodyís guess.

One of my big beefs with this TA was E195E2 rates and -100 rates, which arenít applicable, for now. I still believe the applicable 320/321 rate is low, -300 is a few bucks low, cola is low, and PS and the cliff is insulting and firmed up my lack of goodwill. With this PS proposal Iím not incentivized to be efficient and helpful, as a good PS plan would make the pilot group. Is it worth holding out? I dunno. Doesnít matter. Itíll pass.

Iím absolutely of the opinion that we have more leverage now than we will in 4 years and should fight longer for more, but Iíve accepted how I think this votes gonna go and hope we fix ourselves next time. The FUD boogeyman has a lot of teeth right now. FUD has been an ALPA tactic of late. Sailingfun was called sailingFUD on the delta boards bc he spread a lot of fear and doubt in their failed TA saying theyíd never get more. FUD is winning at JetBlue right now. ALPA FUD didnít exist a year ago here. The union said we will hold out as long as it takes for a market rate contract. They didnít say we need to take an offer quickly because of scope and merger fears. They said the opposite. Now all of a sudden the negotiators say we need to take it because we will lose flying to SkyWest otherwise or have no protections for anything under the PEA. Just smells FUDdy to me and is a 180 turn from their pre-AIP rhetoric.

Southerner
07-12-2018, 08:44 AM
As a year 3 guy, if we negotiated another 12 months and came back with the avg rates of the big 3, SWA, and ALK, and improved profit sharing and cola (assume current formula but remove the cliff, and 3% cola), Iíd make it up over the life of this contract for sure, and then some. Depending on timing and the signing bonus Iíd make it up in 12-18 months from now. Whether or not we could get that (and when) is anybodyís guess.

One of my big beefs with this TA was E195E2 rates and -100 rates, which arenít applicable, for now. I still believe the applicable 320/321 rate is low, -300 is a few bucks low, cola is low, and PS and the cliff is insulting and firmed up my lack of goodwill. With this PS proposal Iím not incentivized to be efficient and helpful, as a good PS plan would make the pilot group. Is it worth holding out? I dunno. Doesnít matter. Itíll pass.

Iím absolutely of the opinion that we have more leverage now than we will in 4 years and should fight longer for more, but Iíve accepted how I think this votes gonna go and hope we fix ourselves next time. The FUD boogeyman has a lot of teeth right now. FUD has been an ALPA tactic of late. Sailingfun was called sailingFUD on the delta boards bc he spread a lot of fear and doubt in their failed TA saying theyíd never get more. FUD is winning at JetBlue right now. ALPA FUD didnít exist a year ago here. The union said we will hold out as long as it takes for a market rate contract. They didnít say we need to take an offer quickly because of scope and merger fears. They said the opposite. Now all of a sudden the negotiators say we need to take it because we will lose flying to SkyWest otherwise or have no protections for anything under the PEA. Just smells FUDdy to me and is a 180 turn from their pre-AIP rhetoric.

Maybe they know something that we don't know?

jtrain609
07-12-2018, 08:46 AM
As a year 3 guy, if we negotiated another 12 months and came back with the avg rates of the big 3, SWA, and ALK, and improved profit sharing and cola (assume current formula but remove the cliff, and 3% cola), Iíd make it up over the life of this contract for sure, and then some. Depending on timing and the signing bonus Iíd make it up in 12-18 months from now. Whether or not we could get that (and when) is anybodyís guess.

One of my big beefs with this TA was E195E2 rates and -100 rates, which arenít applicable, for now. I still believe the applicable 320/321 rate is low, -300 is a few bucks low, cola is low, and PS and the cliff is insulting and firmed up my lack of goodwill. With this PS proposal Iím not incentivized to be efficient and helpful, as a good PS plan would make the pilot group. Is it worth holding out? I dunno. Doesnít matter. Itíll pass.

Iím absolutely of the opinion that we have more leverage now than we will in 4 years and should fight longer for more, but Iíve accepted how I think this votes gonna go and hope we fix ourselves next time. The FUD boogeyman has a lot of teeth right now. FUD has been an ALPA tactic of late. Sailingfun was called sailingFUD on the delta boards bc he spread a lot of fear and doubt in their failed TA saying theyíd never get more. FUD is winning at JetBlue right now. ALPA FUD didnít exist a year ago here. The union said we will hold out as long as it takes for a market rate contract. They didnít say we need to take an offer quickly because of scope and merger fears. They said the opposite. Now all of a sudden the negotiators say we need to take it because we will lose flying to SkyWest otherwise or have no protections for anything under the PEA. Just smells FUDdy to me and is a 180 turn from their pre-AIP rhetoric.

If the company decides to stop making money for a few quarters, how does profit sharing help us?

And I do mean decides, as in an active decision; all they have to do is funnel more money into paying cash for airplanes and magically all that money they "made" is sunk directly back into the operation and never materializes as a profit, and thus there's nothing to share with the employee groups. Shareholders might not be thrilled if they're not paid a dividend, but you can certainly decrease profit down to $1 if you chose to.

Southerner
07-12-2018, 08:48 AM
If the company decides to stop making money for a few quarters, how does profit sharing help us?

And I do mean decides, as in an active decision; all they have to do is funnel more money into paying cash for airplanes and magically all that money they "made" is sunk directly back into the operation and never materializes as a profit, and thus there's nothing to share with the employee groups. Shareholders might not be thrilled if they're not paid a dividend, but you can certainly decrease profit down to $1 if you chose to.

Not to mention when things actually go wrong. The industry is in a boom time right now. That can change very quickly.

BeatNavy
07-12-2018, 08:54 AM
If the company decides to stop making money for a few quarters, how does profit sharing help us?

And I do mean decides, as in an active decision; all they have to do is funnel more money into paying cash for airplanes and magically all that money they "made" is sunk directly back into the operation and never materializes as a profit, and thus there's nothing to share with the employee groups. Shareholders might not be thrilled if they're not paid a dividend, but you can certainly decrease profit down to $1 if you chose to.

Then it costs the company nothing and should be a cost neutral gain for us, so when we are profitable we share the good fortunes. At least then in your scenario they are investing into the company. But showing no profit doesnít please their wall st overlords so it likely wonít happen if they can help it. If we arenít showing profits but are instead spending a ton to reduce debt or buy assets, I gain a lot more than with buybacks or mgmt bonuses, or post profit reported cash being spent on JTV or other weird stuff. Bottom line is profit sharing should be better. Even if the company wanted to use blue accounting to screw us, it should be better. Rates are better than PS any day, but we donít even have those. Good PS would have been a good consolation and one that incentivizes productivy and efficiency for the work group, but we got fleeced.

Blue Dude
07-12-2018, 09:15 AM
If the company decides to stop making money for a few quarters, how does profit sharing help us?

And I do mean decides, as in an active decision; all they have to do is funnel more money into paying cash for airplanes and magically all that money they "made" is sunk directly back into the operation and never materializes as a profit, and thus there's nothing to share with the employee groups. Shareholders might not be thrilled if they're not paid a dividend, but you can certainly decrease profit down to $1 if you chose to.

Yeah, that's not how it works. JBLU has never paid a dividend. The only thing holding up the stock price is forward earnings. Cutting the profit figures simply to avoid paying profit sharing would be unimaginably stupid, and devastating to their own stock holdings.

jtrain609
07-12-2018, 09:21 AM
Yeah, that's not how it works. JBLU has never paid a dividend. The only thing holding up the stock price is forward earnings. Cutting the profit figures simply to avoid paying profit sharing would be unimaginably stupid, and devastating to their own stock holdings.

You're right, they're not paying dividends.

They're buying back $750 million worth of stock, the same amount that this contract is worth.

What if they'd make it $1.5 billion in stock buyback (that'd make investors happy)? Then they could argue that they couldn't afford the contract AND the investors would be thrilled.

All books can be manipulated.

Junglejet4life
07-12-2018, 09:28 AM
I love the red lettering JJ. What else can you do with Windows 95?
Give us more. ;)

If you guys vote yes to this substandard TA, I will never be able to afford a computer that can handle more than Windows 95.


NO WAY TO THE TA!

Bluedriver
07-12-2018, 09:32 AM
If the company decides to stop making money for a few quarters, how does profit sharing help us?

And I do mean decides, as in an active decision; all they have to do is funnel more money into paying cash for airplanes and magically all that money they "made" is sunk directly back into the operation and never materializes as a profit, and thus there's nothing to share with the employee groups. Shareholders might not be thrilled if they're not paid a dividend, but you can certainly decrease profit down to $1 if you chose to.

It doesn't work that way for accounting purposes. Paying cash for aircraft and paying cash for stock buy-backs does NOT reduce reportable profit. They are uses of generated profits but not a way to reduce reportable profits.

queue
07-12-2018, 09:32 AM
As a year 3 guy, if we negotiated another 12 months and came back with the avg rates of the big 3, SWA, and ALK, and improved profit sharing and cola (assume current formula but remove the cliff, and 3% cola), Iíd make it up over the life of this contract for sure, and then some. Depending on timing and the signing bonus Iíd make it up in 12-18 months from now. Whether or not we could get that (and when) is anybodyís guess.

One of my big beefs with this TA was E195E2 rates and -100 rates, which arenít applicable, for now. I still believe the applicable 320/321 rate is low, -300 is a few bucks low, cola is low, and PS and the cliff is insulting and firmed up my lack of goodwill. With this PS proposal Iím not incentivized to be efficient and helpful, as a good PS plan would make the pilot group. Is it worth holding out? I dunno. Doesnít matter. Itíll pass.

Iím absolutely of the opinion that we have more leverage now than we will in 4 years and should fight longer for more, but Iíve accepted how I think this votes gonna go and hope we fix ourselves next time. The FUD boogeyman has a lot of teeth right now. FUD has been an ALPA tactic of late. Sailingfun was called sailingFUD on the delta boards bc he spread a lot of fear and doubt in their failed TA saying theyíd never get more. FUD is winning at JetBlue right now. ALPA FUD didnít exist a year ago here. The union said we will hold out as long as it takes for a market rate contract. They didnít say we need to take an offer quickly because of scope and merger fears. They said the opposite. Now all of a sudden the negotiators say we need to take it because we will lose flying to SkyWest otherwise or have no protections for anything under the PEA. Just smells FUDdy to me and is a 180 turn from their pre-AIP rhetoric.


Bingo. Why did ALPA change their tune? Could it be they need to assure another win for their portfolio? They are stoking the fear fire, blowing the horn of retreat, waiving the while flag.


Look at this "vote for me!" propaganda I got in the mail. Why is it they keep you in the dark of knowing the RLA process (which doesn't require us appeasing a mediator or every agreeing to binding arbitration - yet the TA has it). The RLA process encourages us to make noise, to persuade BJ to give into our demands by our exerting pressure on them. Yet we get these roadshows and multiple pamphlets/email which are aimed at one thing... SELLING US A SUBSTANDARD TA...

Why don't they discuss the bad parts that need to be fixed? Why do they only officially publish a sales brochure?

https://preview.ibb.co/fgzg98/propaganda.jpg





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

say again
07-12-2018, 10:01 AM
If you guys vote yes to this substandard TA, I will never be able to afford a computer that can handle more than Windows 95.


NO WAY TO THE TA!

Then you're a financial moron! :p:rolleyes:

Junglejet4life
07-12-2018, 11:53 AM
Then you're a financial moron! :p:rolleyes:

Well, I am not sure what other resources to tap at this point. I just took a hardship withdrawal from the 401k to pay for a nice family vacation.

Blue Dude
07-12-2018, 01:13 PM
Well, I am not sure what other resources to tap at this point. I just took a hardship withdrawal from the 401k to pay for a nice family vacation.

Payday loans and car title loans are also sound financial moves for such an important purchase.

say again
07-12-2018, 01:59 PM
Well, I am not sure what other resources to tap at this point. I just took a hardship withdrawal from the 401k to pay for a nice family vacation.


Then you're SOL. Go collect cans...

Std Deviation
07-12-2018, 04:11 PM
Payday loans and car title loans are also sound financial moves for such an important purchase.

Letís not forget plasma donations. They say you can only give once every couple weeks. But I been done been feeeelinzgs good doin blud donazizions everzy day. Gud muney. No ill effectzs.

Junglejet4life
07-12-2018, 04:47 PM
Letís not forget plasma donations. They say you can only give once every couple weeks. But I been done been feeeelinzgs good doin blud donazizions everzy day. Gud muney. No ill effectzs.

Donating bodily fluids...you might be on to something here! Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. By this time next year, the family and I will be off on the vacation of our lifetimes. Blythe California...here we come!

Letter3
07-17-2018, 06:49 PM
No, a lot of yes voters I have flown with have literally no idea what they are voting on. They watched the videos, which minimize or don't even mention all the really bad sections of the TA. When I point out all the things B6ALPA is trying to sneak through I usually get a look of shock and a "******* that I am voting NO!"

Then there is the guy worried that we are leaving money behind by voting no. He is usually convinced that B6ALPA gave up all our leverage and now we are defeated. He would fight, but believes this group would just crumble and accept less. I don't completely disagree with him. We have a lot of wanna be scabs here.

If you are happy voting yes, KNOWING this contract is sub par, bringing down all of our peers at the bargaining table because of some small gains from where we sit now, yes you are a wanna be scab. You are doing the same work as a scab would be doing, undermining the piloting profession out of greed.

Just curious. Have you ever called someone a wannabe scab to their face or is it just an internet thing?

PasserOGas
07-18-2018, 09:28 AM
Just curious. Have you ever called someone a wannabe scab to their face or is it just an internet thing?

Are you sensitive to this phrase for a reason?

Did you vote against a union 3 times (as 25% of our group did)?

Voting yes knowing you will be under cutting our peers?

Sorry it's a sore spot for you.

Xtreme87
07-18-2018, 10:31 AM
Are you sensitive to this phrase for a reason?

Did you vote against a union 3 times (as 25% of our group did)?

Voting yes knowing you will be under cutting our peers?

Sorry it's a sore spot for you.

Itís a better contract than Alaskaís how is that UNDERcutting? They have been around for much longer than we have too.

Gordie H
07-18-2018, 11:05 AM
Are you sensitive to this phrase for a reason?

Did you vote against a union 3 times (as 25% of our group did)?

Voting yes knowing you will be under cutting our peers?

Sorry it's a sore spot for you.I think thereís a pretty good chance Iím misunderstanding what youíre saying hereÖ.

But Iím reading your post to say that people who didnít vote to Unionize and people that vote yes for this TA are basically the ďSĒ word???:confused:

CaptCoolHand
07-18-2018, 11:57 AM
I think thereís a pretty good chance Iím misunderstanding what youíre saying hereÖ.

But Iím reading your post to say that people who didnít vote to Unionize and people that vote yes for this TA are basically the ďSĒ word???:confused:

Youíre not misunderstanding.
Yup if youíre in favor of the TA you have crossed a picket line and are now working struck work.

Passeogas has lost all credibility.

PasserOGas
07-18-2018, 12:06 PM
Youíre not misunderstanding.
Yup if youíre in favor of the TA you have crossed a picket line and are now working struck work.

Passeogas has lost all credibility.

Again, you choose to miss quote me because you cannot figure out a way to argue facts.

Most likely it is because you know how bad the TA is but choose to ignore it for some small improvements you will see.

If you look into the mirror and see someone who knowingly lowered the bar that is your problem not mine.

PasserOGas
07-18-2018, 12:07 PM
I think thereís a pretty good chance Iím misunderstanding what youíre saying hereÖ.

But Iím reading your post to say that people who didnít vote to Unionize and people that vote yes for this TA are basically the ďSĒ word???:confused:

Not at all what I said. Except the no to unionize. By definition, if you do non union work in a union field you are a scab. Not a wanna be, an actual scab. At least according to the dictionary.

For me it's all about intent. If you intend on working to raise the bar, we are good. Even if you vote yes to this turd. If you are happy with scraps, and don't feel dirty lowering the bar you fit the intent of the word scab in my book.

I have clarified multiple times, but the "yes at any cost" folks put words into my mouth because they have failed to refute my arguments with logic and reason.

CaptCoolHand
07-18-2018, 12:14 PM
Again, you choose to miss quote me because you cannot figure out a way to argue facts.

Most likely it is because you know how bad the TA is but choose to ignore it for some small improvements you will see.

If you look into the mirror and see someone who knowingly lowered the bar that is your problem not mine.

We are not lowering the bar. And you are wrong.

PasserOGas
07-18-2018, 12:31 PM
We are not lowering the bar. And you are wrong.

We objectively are.


Facts please. Still waiting.

Aero1900
07-18-2018, 04:12 PM
We are bottom feeders by definition since we will be voting yes to bottom of the barrel compensation on DAY 1.


As a Frontier pilot, I question what I am, if your TA is bottom feeder? I suppose i am the pond scum....?

PasserOGas
07-18-2018, 04:34 PM
As a Frontier pilot, I question what I am, if your TA is bottom feeder? I suppose i am the pond scum....?

Well, at least you guys are fighting for more and doing everything you can to be released. Here we are talking about voting yes to the bottom of our peer set after ONE info picket.

Noworkallplay
07-18-2018, 05:21 PM
As a fellow ALPA member I have a question.

What parts of the contract are industry leading? What parts are average? What parts are below average? Make a list and look at it. If you have more items that are average and below average than you have to vote NO.

Remember that if you vote in a standard or below standard contract then in 1-2 years you will be back down at the bottom again when others open section 6.

I honestly want the best for you guys/gals and want you to hold out for a contract that is mostly industry leading.

queue
07-19-2018, 07:12 AM
So- the YES voter is acting in "greed"? Using that logic, you are admitting that it is a greatly beneficial T/A. I thought this was a "terrible T/A"?
Isnt the greedy action to vote NO and hold out for more Pog?
3%/Profit Sharing/Cheaper Health Care/more PTO/ Bonus?
Or did you mean instant gratification? Greed is good. ;)

I do think its wonderful that you care so much for your peers and the industry, in general though.


If you're going to be greedy (which all humans are -- Let him who have no sin cast the first stone), at least be good at it. You can only maximize your greed potential if you vote down TA 1 and bargain for an improved TA 2. All Capitalism is based on greed. People like Bozo can virtue signal all they want but the truth is that even he won't work for Joanna for free. For the rest of us, we simply want pay commensurate a professional - this contract is not even catching up to SWA.

Yes Bozo, I know you are blocking me and I know you love it. I enjoy it too.

http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10700000/Q-in-Hide-Q-q-star-trek-10759451-689-530.jpg


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-19-2018, 07:18 AM
As a fellow ALPA member I have a question.

What parts of the contract are industry leading? What parts are average? What parts are below average? Make a list and look at it. If you have more items that are average and below average than you have to vote NO.

Remember that if you vote in a standard or below standard contract then in 1-2 years you will be back down at the bottom again when others open section 6.

I honestly want the best for you guys/gals and want you to hold out for a contract that is mostly industry leading.


Industry leading examples would be things like:


Positive space commuting always.
Pay at an automatic snap up with the formula of No Lower than Top 4 / 4.
Guaranteed 15 days off per month.

We literally have NOTHING industry leading. Everything in there is only vaguely catching up at best, but mostly 1/2 way to catching up.

The biggest danger is the vague legal language. Look at the simple paragraph on the definition of "positive contact". It opens up more loopholes for BJ to exploit, which they have done countless times in the past. Notice there is no definition of what positive contact means with JETCRW, yet it's in there.

Also, notice the contract now legitimizes the dependability policy. Read the DP carefully! Even an EMERGENCY counts against your dependability. The contract actually makes this WORSE since now it's contractual. Whoever let this through is a fool.

ALPA can do whatever roadshows they want but in the end it's only a sales pitch designed to make you feel good about something that isn't. Only the legal language matters. If it's not in the contract, it doesn't exist, regardless of what they say. Any notes that exist in ALPA's vault do not count.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-19-2018, 07:28 AM
As a Frontier pilot, I question what I am, if your TA is bottom feeder? I suppose i am the pond scum....?


Frontier pilot, while you guys may be at an even lower pay rate than BJ, this is a cyclical thing. I hope you don't see this as a reason for divisiveness. We're all in this together in the sense that if we get a horrible contract (e.g. TA 1), your management will get precedent to further erode your pay/benefits/rules. This will have the same effect on the top 3 legacies. Both Frontier and BJ will be a drag to their negotiations. I would personally love to see where any Airbus pilot get paid the same base pay regardless of the airline they fly for. Any differences in pay can be accounted for by profit sharing. We're in an industry run by vulture MBAs who only care about their golden parachutes. They literally would sell their mothers and put your family on the street if it benefited them. We have to stop them using market forces. We have all the power.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

likeitis
07-19-2018, 07:33 AM
Itís a better contract than Alaskaís how is that UNDERcutting? They have been around for much longer than we have too.

Wow. We beat a contract negotiated during the great recession and then further arbitrated. Real high hurdle.

CaptCoolHand
07-19-2018, 09:43 AM
We objectively are.


Facts please. Still waiting.

Fact is It is pretty straight forward. Iíve read the TA. Two threeish times now. If you look at the comparison guide we are market rate.

We are deficient In a few areas. We are average in most areas.
Then we have some that are stellar.

Those are the facts. You choose to harp on the deficiencies. Thatís fine. I added up my pros and cons. Some I can live with others I reall donít like. But thereís nothing I canít live with for 3-5yrs.

We can send it back. Fight tooth and nail for top tier everything. I think itís a fools errand. You waste time mostly and resources. Personally I care less about the money and more about the time. You canít get time back.

Iím not willing to lose another year or more to the DR for what may get improved. I like the majority of what is in the TA not all of it. Iíll hold my nose to the rates and cola. But in the end we have to start some where. If thatís not reasonable, Iím not sure what is. Iím ready for improvements to QOL as fast as it can be implemented.

You fight on buddy. I did my decade, Iím ready for a break. Iím ready for actual improvements. Iím ready to have real scope. Iím ready for contractual obligation.

Read my posts from 2008 till now. Iíve always fought for better. This TA makes life for jb pilots better imo, and itís far better than the alternative.

CaptCoolHand
07-19-2018, 09:45 AM
Wow. We beat a contract negotiated during the great recession and then further arbitrated. Real high hurdle.

Didnít they just sign a new CBA last year?

seekingblue
07-19-2018, 10:23 AM
Fact is It is pretty straight forward. Iíve read the TA. Two threeish times now. If you look at the comparison guide we are market rate.

We are deficient In a few areas. We are average in most areas.
Then we have some that are stellar.

Those are the facts. You choose to harp on the deficiencies. Thatís fine. I added up my pros and cons. Some I can live with others I reall donít like. But thereís nothing I canít live with for 3-5yrs.

We can send it back. Fight tooth and nail for top tier everything. I think itís a fools errand. You waste time mostly and resources. Personally I care less about the money and more about the time. You canít get time back.

Iím not willing to lose another year or more to the DR for what may get improved. I like the majority of what is in the TA not all of it. Iíll hold my nose to the rates and cola. But in the end we have to start some where. If thatís not reasonable, Iím not sure what is. Iím ready for improvements to QOL as fast as it can be implemented.

You fight on buddy. I did my decade, Iím ready for a break. Iím ready for actual improvements. Iím ready to have real scope. Iím ready for contractual obligation.

Read my posts from 2008 till now. Iíve always fought for better. This TA makes life for jb pilots better imo, and itís far better than the alternative.

This. 1 million times this.

Also, you are spot on when you say sending it back is a fools errand.

Gordie H
07-19-2018, 11:33 AM
Not at all what I said. Except the no to unionize. By definition, if you do non union work in a union field you are a scab. Not a wanna be, an actual scab. At least according to the dictionary.

For me it's all about intent. If you intend on working to raise the bar, we are good. Even if you vote yes to this turd. If you are happy with scraps, and don't feel dirty lowering the bar you fit the intent of the word scab in my book.

I have clarified multiple times, but the "yes at any cost" folks put words into my mouth because they have failed to refute my arguments with logic and reason.

...Totally absurd, for many reasons / definitely not a word I'd be throwing around like that.

Bozo the pilot
07-19-2018, 11:58 AM
Fact is It is pretty straight forward. Iíve read the TA. Two threeish times now. If you look at the comparison guide we are market rate.

We are deficient In a few areas. We are average in most areas.
Then we have some that are stellar.

Those are the facts. You choose to harp on the deficiencies. Thatís fine. I added up my pros and cons. Some I can live with others I reall donít like. But thereís nothing I canít live with for 3-5yrs.

We can send it back. Fight tooth and nail for top tier everything. I think itís a fools errand. You waste time mostly and resources. Personally I care less about the money and more about the time. You canít get time back.

Iím not willing to lose another year or more to the DR for what may get improved. I like the majority of what is in the TA not all of it. Iíll hold my nose to the rates and cola. But in the end we have to start some where. If thatís not reasonable, Iím not sure what is. Iím ready for improvements to QOL as fast as it can be implemented.

You fight on buddy. I did my decade, Iím ready for a break. Iím ready for actual improvements. Iím ready to have real scope. Iím ready for contractual obligation.

Read my posts from 2008 till now. Iíve always fought for better. This TA makes life for jb pilots better imo, and itís far better than the alternative.
Pog will not have a response to this post.

BeatNavy
07-19-2018, 12:04 PM
Didnít they just sign a new CBA last year?

Are you serious? Their contract was arbitrated. Do you know what that means?

PasserOGas
07-19-2018, 12:10 PM
Pog will not have a response to this post.

Yes I will.

queue
07-19-2018, 02:36 PM
Fact is It is pretty straight forward. Iíve read the TA. Two threeish times now. If you look at the comparison guide we are market rate.

We are deficient In a few areas. We are average in most areas.
Then we have some that are stellar.

Those are the facts. You choose to harp on the deficiencies. Thatís fine. I added up my pros and cons. Some I can live with others I reall donít like. But thereís nothing I canít live with for 3-5yrs.

We can send it back. Fight tooth and nail for top tier everything. I think itís a fools errand. You waste time mostly and resources. Personally I care less about the money and more about the time. You canít get time back.

Iím not willing to lose another year or more to the DR for what may get improved. I like the majority of what is in the TA not all of it. Iíll hold my nose to the rates and cola. But in the end we have to start some where. If thatís not reasonable, Iím not sure what is. Iím ready for improvements to QOL as fast as it can be implemented.

You fight on buddy. I did my decade, Iím ready for a break. Iím ready for actual improvements. Iím ready to have real scope. Iím ready for contractual obligation.

Read my posts from 2008 till now. Iíve always fought for better. This TA makes life for jb pilots better imo, and itís far better than the alternative.


How are we market rate?


Look at the Captain AND FO rates. Do you remember Calculus? Integrate the two curves for SWA and B6 and see what the total area is under the curves. We get paid less, yet we fly larger airplanes further distances, we do more international, and will start doing EU possibly in the near future. We are more productive than anyone else and we fly more at night than others, yet we get paid less.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.



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