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EFBprobs
07-04-2018, 08:40 PM
If there's any prospective new hires out there...just keep in mind a pay agreement was voted down by the pilot group and they are not returning to the table as of now.


blindfayth
07-04-2018, 09:20 PM
I've been watching this unfold as I was reaching my RATP mins over the past few months.

I had it down to Endeavor, Republic, and SkyWest.

SkyWest was an easy one to cross off of my list. From an outsider's perspective, I like seeing a company be proactive when it comes to taking care of their employees (EDV comes first here, RPA second).

Skywest, meanwhile, seems to be very unwilling to do so. Word spreads fast around the flight school, too. No one is interested in going there anymore, even with us being near two of SkyWests's most junior bases (ORD & DTW).

The pay is just insultingly low to start out at. 37k vs ~55/60k at RPA/EDV? Come on... There's no reason it should be nearly *half*.

On top of that, watching the TA simply be a reshuffling of income from one category to another? Sends a bad message to potential new-hires. Why would I want to join a company that's going to try to pull a fast one? Meanwhile, Endeavor gave everyone a straight up ~20k raise last year. First through bonuses, then second through baking those into base pay rates (which helps 401k contributions and picking up open time).

The up-and-coming new hires aren't stupid. We're watching, and we were disappointed with OO.

EFBprobs
07-04-2018, 09:25 PM
I've been watching this unfold as I was reaching my RATP mins over the past few months.

I had it down to Endeavor, Republic, and SkyWest.

SkyWest was an easy one to cross off of my list. From an outsider's perspective, I like seeing a company be proactive when it comes to taking care of their employees (EDV comes first here, RPA second).

Skywest, meanwhile, seems to be very unwilling to do so. Word spreads fast around the flight school, too. No one is interested in going there anymore, even with us being near two of SkyWests's most junior bases (ORD & DTW).

The pay is just insultingly low to start out at. 37k vs ~55/60k at RPA/EDV? Come on... There's no reason it should be nearly *half*.

On top of that, watching the TA simply be a reshuffling of income from one category to another? Sends a bad message to potential new-hires. Why would I want to join a company that's going to try to pull a fast one? Meanwhile, Endeavor gave everyone a straight up ~20k raise last year. First through bonuses, then second through baking those into base pay rates (which helps 401k contributions and picking up open time).

The up-and-coming new hires aren't stupid. We're watching, and we were disappointed with OO.

Love to hear it, this is why I posted. Thanks.

Skywest will do everything in their power to pay you as little as possible, and interpret the pilots policy manual in their favor. If they need something, they expect the world...if you need something they won't give an inch.


TJBrass
07-05-2018, 03:02 AM
All true, but going to EDV or RPA means going to NY. That alone is enough to keep the recruiting department busy. Mngt knows that.

captande
07-05-2018, 03:08 AM
Also going to E9 means waiting 6-8 months on a class date.

flydiamond
07-05-2018, 03:22 AM
Also going to E9 means waiting 6-8 months on a class date.

Not true. Endeavor is hiring en masse now... ramped it up to prepare us for more growth. 55 a month.

Shadre Reevis
07-05-2018, 03:55 AM
Also going to E9 means waiting 6-8 months on a class date.E9 is a charter airline based in Spain. Did you mean 9E? Also our hiring has more than doubled recently so classes are no longer being delayed. As flydiamond said, we are told it is to be in better position for more growth.

captande
07-05-2018, 03:57 AM
E9 is a charter airline based in Spain. Did you mean 9E? Also our hiring has more than doubled recently so classes are no longer being delayed. As flydiamond said, we are told it is to be in better position for more growth.

Yes 9E haha, and that’s good! I hadn’t heard that.

amcnd
07-05-2018, 04:51 AM
Regardless of what you believe, OO bases are a big recruitment tool. 9E pay isn’t enouyto make a guy with kids and a wife commute to NYC. SkyWest pay will come up as long as we keep voting NO to sub 9E pay... So be patient and wait for what you want. Half of OO pilots came here because 10-15 years ago OO paid more then the rest and had better QOL. It was when we went from 1800 pilots to now 4634 pilots that QOL went down. And now SGU knows this and were not happy... They are heading back to Negotiations so will see what happens...

flydiamond
07-05-2018, 05:05 AM
Regardless of what you believe, OO bases are a big recruitment tool. 9E pay isn’t enouyto make a guy with kids and a wife commute to NYC. SkyWest pay will come up as long as we keep voting NO to sub 9E pay... So be patient and wait for what you want. Half of OO pilots came here because 10-15 years ago OO paid more then the rest and had better QOL. It was when we went from 1800 pilots to now 4634 pilots that QOL went down. And now SGU knows this and were not happy... They are heading back to Negotiations so will see what happens...

Wonder how things will shake out if/when 9E gets a western base or two. Strong rumors of that while Skywest simultaneously opens a LGA base and C series starts doing a bit of the NYC flying... gotta love the Delta Shuffle. Endeavor is growing but there is no more room to grow in NYC...

ninerdriver
07-05-2018, 05:18 AM
All true, but going to EDV or RPA means going to NY. That alone is enough to keep the recruiting department busy. Mngt knows that.

Doesn't OO on the ERJ mean going to NYC, too?

WesternSkies
07-05-2018, 05:56 AM
Weird how OO added three factory new airplanes to a full New York last month.

What variant and where are the 9e airplanes coming and when?

amcnd
07-05-2018, 05:59 AM
It’s no lie Delta loves “regional overlapping” now. But i see 9E moving west via Compass... not CRJ’s... (new airport will better support the ERJ with no “geto gates”..

But if you guys want to come out and take EKO/PIH/BTM ect on your 200’s. Have at it...

N1234
07-05-2018, 06:15 AM
From what I can see, DL would like to have coast to coast coverage of their "chosen" three regionals - if it ever come to that.

NYC may not have any growth left but plenty of equipment shuffle. They don't want any CRJ in NYC at all. So that leaves plenty of room for E175 and C Series. BTW, SEA and LAX already are there - no DL CRJ in those markets any more.

KelvinHelmholtz
07-05-2018, 06:15 AM
Weird how OO added three factory new airplanes to a full New York last month.

What variant and where are the 9e airplanes coming and when?

OO airplanes were added to replace ASA flying

flydiamond
07-05-2018, 06:17 AM
Weird how OO added three factory new airplanes to a full New York last month.

What variant and where are the 9e airplanes coming and when?

Endeavor flying shrunk June to July in NYC and increased at the other bases... at least as measured by NYC pairing credit hours... Endeavor had ramped up nyc to cover for ASA leaving NYC and now as Skywest takes deliveries of those 175s it frees Endeavor planes to fly elsewhere, such as DTW and ATL. The slots in LGA are fixed. Every flight Skywest puts in LGA means one less Endeavor/Republic flight...

WesternSkies
07-05-2018, 06:26 AM
OO airplanes were added to replace ASA flying

And that has happened right?
I’m curious to what this new growth is.

trip
07-05-2018, 07:07 AM
They are heading back to Negotiations so will see what happens...


Care to expand on this?

amcnd
07-05-2018, 07:31 AM
Care to expand on this?

Sapa negotiators and the company go behind closed doors and try to come to new terms on a agreement.. pilots won’t know anything tell after the next sapa monthly meeting after a agreement is reached. Then voting take a month or two..

Not sure if thats what your looking for.. but we know what was just voted down was a big NO. So im guessing it will a complete revamp.

rickair7777
07-05-2018, 08:15 AM
Regardless of what you believe, OO bases are a big recruitment tool. 9E pay isn’t enouyto make a guy with kids and a wife commute to NYC. SkyWest pay will come up as long as we keep voting NO to sub 9E pay... So be patient and wait for what you want. Half of OO pilots came here because 10-15 years ago OO paid more then the rest and had better QOL. It was when we went from 1800 pilots to now 4634 pilots that QOL went down. And now SGU knows this and were not happy... They are heading back to Negotiations so will see what happens...

This. Many new-hires are now grown adults, career-changers, or folks from other aviation sectors. They know that arguing differences in regional FO pay is like hookers arguing relative virginity.

And there's truth to it, unless you have dire personal financial circumstances such that ever nickel counts, the it's not going to be worth years in the east for a few thousand or tens of thousands of dollars. OO junior FO pay is certainly a livable wage for a single 20-something CFI. OO does not have to compete dollar for dollar with other regionals.

The big change that I see being potentially on the horizon is if the bigs really ramp up hiring, ie growth to go along with retirements. Then OO might have to fight the losing battle on retention. They're not going to retain most junior/mid-seniority folks at all, but they might be able to retain senior folks who would prefer to stay but are torn by the opportunities at the bigs.

amcnd
07-05-2018, 08:17 AM
I agree^ with the above. Except Senior guys are leaving or looking to leave. And im talking 15+ year guys. Now that there kids are grown and house paid for. Time for a change.. (im in this boat).

Utah
07-05-2018, 08:24 AM
This. Many new-hires are now grown adults, career-changers, or folks from other aviation sectors. They know that arguing differences in regional FO pay is like hookers arguing relative virginity.

And there's truth to it, unless you have dire personal financial circumstances such that ever nickel counts, the it's not going to be worth years in the east for a few thousand or tens of thousands of dollars. OO junior FO pay is certainly a livable wage for a single 20-something CFI. OO does not have to compete dollar for dollar with other regionals.

The big change that I see being potentially on the horizon is if the bigs really ramp up hiring, ie growth to go along with retirements. Then OO might have to fight the losing battle on retention. They're not going to retain most junior/mid-seniority folks at all, but they might be able to retain senior folks who would prefer to stay but are torn by the opportunities at the bigs.

The thing that has changed in the last year or two is we now have FOs leaving for other regionals. That almost never happened in the past...

amcnd
07-05-2018, 08:34 AM
And we have had a fee come back. We have 4640 pilots. They have always planed on 20% attrition. Thats 80+ pilots a month leave. You can see how detrimental some of the companies like Horizon and Compass having 20+ leave a month and only having 900~ is. 2-3 a month going to other regionals isn’t the issue. The issue is. We are the largest regional and QOL has suffered at the Company’s growth.. growth isn’t always good for the pilot group...

blindfayth
07-05-2018, 08:56 AM
This. Many new-hires are now grown adults, career-changers, or folks from other aviation sectors. They know that arguing differences in regional FO pay is like hookers arguing relative virginity.

And there's truth to it, unless you have dire personal financial circumstances such that ever nickel counts, the it's not going to be worth years in the east for a few thousand or tens of thousands of dollars. OO junior FO pay is certainly a livable wage for a single 20-something CFI. OO does not have to compete dollar for dollar with other regionals.

The big change that I see being potentially on the horizon is if the bigs really ramp up hiring, ie growth to go along with retirements. Then OO might have to fight the losing battle on retention. They're not going to retain most junior/mid-seniority folks at all, but they might be able to retain senior folks who would prefer to stay but are torn by the opportunities at the bigs.

I'm a career-changing adult with a wife and kid, and would prefer to stay in the midwest. Even with coming out of flight training with zero debt (thanks GI Bill), and wanting a DTW base, SkyWest's initial pay is insultingly low.

That said, I did some napkin math to compare it vs Republic's pay:

Republic:
Year 1 55k - (45k + 10k bonus)
Year 2 55k - (50k + 5k bonus)
Year 3 54k - (51k + 3k bonus)

Total to date 164k

Year 4 96k (upgrade to captain)

New total to date 260k

Pros: Shiny Jet. Good schedules and contract. No ready reserve. No Junior Manning. Morale seems high. Pay is good. 2020 Captain pay is great if I ended up getting stuck there.
Cons: I'd have to live in Columbus Ohio to avoid commuting. To avoid commuting, I'd also need to defer upgrade until CMH CA slot opens (~3 years). I'd need to be at CMH for ~ 5 years as a CA to hold a line.


Skywest:
Year 1 40k
Year 2 42k
Year 3 82k (upgrade to Captain)

Total to date: 164k

Year 4 85k

New total to date: 249k

Pros: I'd be able to build PIC time faster at OO, hold a better schedule at DTW sooner, and not have to sit reserve. I also wouldn't have to sit at NYC.
Cons: Initial pay sucks. SkyWest seems to be reluctant to improve contracts. Morale seems low.


Endeavor:
Year 1 60k - (50k + 10k bonus)
Year 2 60k
Year 3 62k

Total to date 182k

Year 4 100k (upgrade to captain, using their 2020 CA pay rates on the 900)

New total to date 282k

Pros: Pay is obviously way better. DGI. People there seem very happy. Morale is high.
Cons: I'd have to commute to NYC for ~ 3 months out of training before I could hold DTW. I would likely choose not to upgrade to CA until I could hold dtw (~3 years). I'd have to sit reserve as a CA in DTW for a year or two after upgrading. I'd have to wait ~5 years to hold a line as a CA in DTW.

Edit: Threw in EDV figures as well.

Bravix
07-05-2018, 09:06 AM
I'm a career-changing adult with a wife and kid, and would prefer to stay in the midwest. Even with coming out of flight training with zero debt (thanks GI Bill), and wanting a DTW base, SkyWest's initial pay is insultingly low.

That said, I did some napkin math to compare it vs Republic's pay:

Republic:
Year 1 55k - (45k + 10k bonus)
Year 2 55k - (50k + 5k bonus)
Year 3 54k - (51k + 3k bonus)

Total to date 164k

Year 4 96k

New total to date 260k

vs

Skywest:
Year 1 40k (37k + PPS)
Year 2 42k (39k + PPS)
Year 3 82k (Year 3 + PPS)

Total to date: 164k

Year 4 85k

New total to date: 249k

Things really start to diverge from here, but the total over the first 3 years is approximately the same. I'd be able to build PIC time faster at OO, hold a better schedule at DTW sooner, and not have to sit reserve. I also wouldn't have to sit at NYC.

You'd also have far worse schedules, trips, and days off on the CRJ than a E175. So sure, your advancement will be quicker at SkyWest, but you'll take a QOL hit. But hey, you'll get 11 days with your wife and kid ;)

Oh, and those things get hot in the summer. REALLY hot, sometimes.

calmwinds
07-05-2018, 09:37 AM
You'd also have far worse schedules, trips, and days off on the CRJ than a E175. So sure, your advancement will be quicker at SkyWest, but you'll take a QOL hit. But hey, you'll get 11 days with your wife and kid ;)

Oh, and those things get hot in the summer. REALLY hot, sometimes.

Year 3 for an upgrade in DTW is pessimistic. DAL is hiring at 3,000 (as are others). This analysis ignores being long gone at the end of the Year 3 mark.

blindfayth
07-05-2018, 09:41 AM
Year 3 for an upgrade in DTW is pessimistic. DAL is hiring at 3,000 (as are others). This analysis ignores being long gone at the end of the Year 3 mark.

This assumes an upgrade at the conclusion of year 2, granting an entire year of captain pay during year 3. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Napkin math and all. :)

havick206
07-05-2018, 09:42 AM
All true, but going to EDV or RPA means going to NY. That alone is enough to keep the recruiting department busy. Mngt knows that.

Isn’t that the same for Skywest now with LGA being the most junior base and growing?

blindfayth
07-05-2018, 09:53 AM
Isn’t that the same for Skywest now with LGA being the most junior base and growing?

Only if you choose the 175. SkyWest doesn't operate crjs there. Yet?

havick206
07-05-2018, 09:58 AM
Only if you choose the 175. SkyWest doesn't operate crjs there. Yet?

Still, it’s disingenuous to suggest that everyone other than Skywest has less than desirable junior bases (depending on your point of view), when Skywest themselves has the same junior base.

ninerdriver
07-05-2018, 11:09 AM
And that has happened right?
I’m curious to what this new growth is.

We are, too. According to [insert rumor seed here], Delta will announce it after the [insert season here] season at the [insert event here]. The only concrete news from BL is that we're anticipating growth.

rickair7777
07-05-2018, 11:20 AM
I'm a career-changing adult with a wife and kid, and would prefer to stay in the midwest. Even with coming out of flight training with zero debt (thanks GI Bill), and wanting a DTW base, SkyWest's initial pay is insultingly low.

That said, I did some napkin math to compare it vs Republic's pay:

Republic:
Year 1 55k - (45k + 10k bonus)
Year 2 55k - (50k + 5k bonus)
Year 3 54k - (51k + 3k bonus)

Total to date 164k

Year 4 96k (upgrade to captain)

New total to date 260k

Pros: Shiny Jet. Good schedules and contract. No ready reserve. No Junior Manning. Morale seems high. Pay is good. 2020 Captain pay is great if I ended up getting stuck there.
Cons: I'd have to live in Columbus Ohio to avoid commuting. To avoid commuting, I'd also need to defer upgrade until CMH CA slot opens (~3 years). I'd need to be at CMH for ~ 5 years as a CA to hold a line.


Skywest:
Year 1 40k
Year 2 42k
Year 3 82k (upgrade to Captain)

Total to date: 164k

Year 4 85k

New total to date: 249k

Pros: I'd be able to build PIC time faster at OO, hold a better schedule at DTW sooner, and not have to sit reserve. I also wouldn't have to sit at NYC.
Cons: Initial pay sucks. SkyWest seems to be reluctant to improve contracts. Morale seems low.


Endeavor:
Year 1 60k - (50k + 10k bonus)
Year 2 60k
Year 3 62k

Total to date 182k

Year 4 100k (upgrade to captain, using their 2020 CA pay rates on the 900)

New total to date 282k

Pros: Pay is obviously way better. DGI. People there seem very happy. Morale is high.
Cons: I'd have to commute to NYC for ~ 3 months out of training before I could hold DTW. I would likely choose not to upgrade to CA until I could hold dtw (~3 years). I'd have to sit reserve as a CA in DTW for a year or two after upgrading. I'd have to wait ~5 years to hold a line as a CA in DTW.

Edit: Threw in EDV figures as well.

If you actually WANT to be east of DEN, then by all means follow the money.

SKW has decided to leverage it's western bases to attract and retain pilots who prefer the west. They don't think they need you, at least not yet. They can fill junior FO/CA slots in eastern bases with folks hoping to head back west soon. The more senior folks are not making lateral moves regardless so what they want doesn't really matter.

hawk21
07-05-2018, 11:21 AM
Only if you choose the 175. SkyWest doesn't operate crjs there. Yet?


According to the Delta website this is changing in a few months.

rickair7777
07-05-2018, 11:21 AM
The only concrete news from BL is that we're anticipating growth.

Well, you have to give them credit for one thing... they do keep growing.

trip
07-05-2018, 11:22 AM
Sapa negotiators and the company go behind closed doors and try to come to new terms on a agreement.. pilots won’t know anything tell after the next sapa monthly meeting after a agreement is reached. Then voting take a month or two..

Not sure if thats what your looking for.. but we know what was just voted down was a big NO. So im guessing it will a complete revamp.

I understand that's how it works, It sounded like you had information this process had already re-started. According to the 6/30 Pres update the company had not showed any interest in restarting this process.

Tuffgong
07-05-2018, 01:25 PM
If your only planning to get your time and go, why not take the pay increase per hour? I’m I’m a new hire with plans on being st a company for x years, I want my money now. Not let’s wait and see what happens in Thr future with our fingers crossed. Skywest doesn’t have a union and that’s a major disadvantage to its employees.

blindfayth
07-05-2018, 01:32 PM
If your only planning to get your time and go, why not take the pay increase per hour?

Same thing could be said for someone who might be OK with staying at a regional for 20 years. Republic's airframe, QOL, Schedules, etc are really good, as are their new captain pay rates by 2020.

gojo
07-05-2018, 01:52 PM
This. Many new-hires are now grown adults, career-changers, or folks from other aviation sectors. They know that arguing differences in regional FO pay is like hookers arguing relative virginity.

And there's truth to it, unless you have dire personal financial circumstances such that ever nickel counts, the it's not going to be worth years in the east for a few thousand or tens of thousands of dollars. OO junior FO pay is certainly a livable wage for a single 20-something CFI. OO does not have to compete dollar for dollar with other regionals.

The big change that I see being potentially on the horizon is if the bigs really ramp up hiring, ie growth to go along with retirements. Then OO might have to fight the losing battle on retention. They're not going to retain most junior/mid-seniority folks at all, but they might be able to retain senior folks who would prefer to stay but are torn by the opportunities at the bigs.

That’s just dumb comparing regionals to hookers. At least try to pick one that won’t give you a STD. And yes, I’m using an analogy. Be smart about things. When comparing apples to apples, or even slightly different shades of apples, why would you try to advocate not being paid as a the professional you’re trained for? Student loans and flight training costs much more than even 5 years ago. And while Skywest May provide a livable wage for the minority that are single or don’t have student loans, I don’t condone leaving money on the table. Skywest can afford it.

word302
07-05-2018, 02:19 PM
If your only planning to get your time and go, why not take the pay increase per hour? I’m I’m a new hire with plans on being st a company for x years, I want my money now. Not let’s wait and see what happens in Thr future with our fingers crossed. Skywest doesn’t have a union and that’s a major disadvantage to its employees.

This is a very short-sighted view. Talk to some of the 10, 15, even 20 year guys who only planned on being here a few years. Vote like you're stuck here for the long haul, cuz you could be.

Truthanator
07-05-2018, 02:22 PM
If you think moving on within 2-3 years is a sure thing for you, Endeavor is an easy choice if it satisfies your living situation.
If you think it's the best place to be when the music stops (and it will), I have a nice beach house to sell you. I bought it off a Comair CA.
See what I did there?:cool:

Tuffgong
07-05-2018, 02:27 PM
True, Skywest can afford it. But we’re all grown adults here. We have choices..regionals are hiring like crazy with bonus. If you don’t lik Skywest, leave. My opinion

hawk21
07-05-2018, 03:02 PM
True, Skywest can afford it. But we’re all grown adults here. We have choices..regionals are hiring like crazy with bonus. If you don’t lik Skywest, leave. My opinion


Or you know... vote no on the next garbage pay proposal. I blame the pilot group for letting the company push crap on us because we accept it most the time.

gojo
07-05-2018, 03:09 PM
True, Skywest can afford it. But we’re all grown adults here. We have choices..regionals are hiring like crazy with bonus. If you don’t lik Skywest, leave. My opinion

Grown adults, yes. And yes, we have choices. Choices we make give us wisdom and experience. The pros and cons are individually suited. And while passing on thousands of dollars may be money well spent for someone not wanting to commute. It’s not advice that should be given to everyone by saying regionals are like hookers. It’s whatever works for each individual and their personal situation.

Tuffgong
07-05-2018, 03:56 PM
I’m with the fight, I think that Skywest/Pilots needs a Union. A union would have fought and potentially had a strike if demands were not met. Skywest at one time was the legacy. They are now losing their shine. They do need to increase the pay.

Union... how doe you get one???

amcnd
07-05-2018, 04:45 PM
Reading the latest “from the top” it seems the company is in a “oh crap” we got caught trying to squeeze a crap TA in and the pulot group is ****ed... Before we get a union lets get them to match Endeavor. Then lets double down..

WidgetDriver
07-05-2018, 07:09 PM
Skywest pilots you have more leverage than you realize. Tell Chip Childs to pound sand. You have leverage...use it.

amcnd
07-05-2018, 08:38 PM
Skywest pilots you have more leverage than you realize. Tell Chip Childs to pound sand. You have leverage...use it.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves... we have enough leverage to get equal pay with atleast Republic.. and QOL...

rickair7777
07-05-2018, 09:01 PM
That’s just dumb comparing regionals to hookers. At least try to pick one that won’t give you a STD. And yes, I’m using an analogy. Be smart about things. When comparing apples to apples, or even slightly different shades of apples, why would you try to advocate not being paid as a the professional you’re trained for? Student loans and flight training costs much more than even 5 years ago. And while Skywest May provide a livable wage for the minority that are single or don’t have student loans, I don’t condone leaving money on the table. Skywest can afford it.

I'm not saying YOU should leave money on the table.

I'm explaining this from SGU's perspective. If you don't understand where THEY are coming from, it's going to be hard to deal with them.

In the real world nobody cares about what's "fair", or that professionals "should" be compensated in a certain manner, or that somebody has a lot of student debt. They only care what the market will bear. They believe that their candidate pool values geography, which was very true in the past. Has that changed? I don't know, are they still filling classes?

I also think they don't care about a pilot union. They would like to drag it out as long as they can, to let inflation degrade the status quo.

IF they have real trouble filling classes, and IF the pilot group holds noob pay hostage, then they might have to pony up.

Check Complete
07-06-2018, 10:03 AM
Lets not get ahead of ourselves... we have enough leverage to get equal pay with atleast Republic.. and QOL...

The problem is we have SAPA representing us, and with that we will never get what we deserve.

Bozo
07-06-2018, 11:36 AM
The problem is we have SAPA representing us, and with that we will never get what we deserve.

And who's fault is that?

Bozo
07-06-2018, 11:38 AM
Skywest pilots you have more leverage than you realize. Tell Chip Childs to pound sand. You have leverage...use it.

There is a difference between leverage and a set of balls.

WaterRooster
07-06-2018, 03:27 PM
There is a difference between leverage and a set of balls.

Yah... 89% No sure is a lack of them.

Go back to your hole troll.

Air Stang 7
07-06-2018, 11:23 PM
Yah... 89% No sure is a lack of them.

Go back to your hole troll.
Push for real representation, then we'll know who is trolling and who has balls.

popNfresh
07-07-2018, 07:03 AM
I think the company will come back sooner rather than later. In the last RSR report it states that July was the first month with the ERJ that reserve staffing was negative.

I bid reserve to get out of working. I have been getting slammed so far in July. I flew out of SFO for 1 leg to sit OBR. The capt that day. As of right now we are outpacing attrition but for how long. I don’t think SkyWest will shoot themselves in the foot like otherrwgionals have done.

Tuffgong
07-07-2018, 12:10 PM
It’s simple, Skywest Pilots needs a Union. A real one to fight. Until that happens, chip has all the chips.. I worked for a huge company hat had a major Union. jimmy Hoffa name was still in paperwork. I was also a shop steward for my building and it was close to street fights to get what you want. You need a union.... a union for Skywest is like the school yard bully. If this were going down with a Union you guys would probably strike!

But to beat them you need to think like them. If I’m a CEO I’ll pinch every dime and work out out you that I can.. no union lol it’s easy. There is no threat of a strike.. chip is probably laughing and sipping his whiskey ..

usmc-sgt
07-07-2018, 12:20 PM
I got into this industry about 10 years too early. It’s great to see that $37k is “insultingly low.”

Back in the mid 2000s first year was closer to $18-20k....and some places gave you the privilege of paying for your type.

Check Complete
07-07-2018, 02:55 PM
Tuff has it correct.

We are never going to get what we need with the paid by management SAPA. Don't get me wrong, there some very good people working for the group. But they cannot achieve what the company does not want to freely give. They are bought and paid for and there guys on the EB that like to get 105 hours of pay to not fly, some in over a year.

For those of you that fear we would languish for years to get a real contract, that's not going to happen. The company would need to quickly put together a contract to keep up with the industry and bring in new pilots.

In fact, if there was ever a time to act, it's now!

We need a real union, with national resources.

What we have is a student council that does exactly what management wants, doing exactly what they are paid to do!

blindfayth
07-07-2018, 02:58 PM
I got into this industry about 10 years too early. It’s great to see that $37k is “insultingly low.”

Back in the mid 2000s first year was closer to $18-20k....and some places gave you the privilege of paying for your type.

Which is why, when I got out of the service and looked at the economics of the industry at that time, I decided to do other stuff instead.

I chose not to participate in those reindeer games.

Quarryman
07-07-2018, 07:10 PM
Which is why, when I got out of the service and looked at the economics of the industry at that time, I decided to do other stuff instead.

I chose not to participate in those reindeer games.

Ditto. And this is why the regional game is in the sad state that it is now in trying to recruit people.

E6BAV8R
07-09-2018, 05:50 AM
If your only planning to get your time and go, why not take the pay increase per hour? I’m I’m a new hire with plans on being st a company for x years, I want my money now. Not let’s wait and see what happens in Thr future with our fingers crossed. Skywest doesn’t have a union and that’s a major disadvantage to its employees.

That's great that you don't think you're going to be at a regional for very long. However, you should plan to be. I picked a regional because I wanted to be somewhere that if, 10 years from now, I've still not got called to a mothership or when the music stops spinning again. If all you're doing is picking a regional today because of their hourly pay, you're ignoring many other factors that should be a part of said decision.

rickair7777
07-09-2018, 06:34 AM
That's great that you don't think you're going to be at a regional for very long. However, you should plan to be. I picked a regional because I wanted to be somewhere that if, 10 years from now, I've still not got called to a mothership or when the music stops spinning again. If all you're doing is picking a regional today because of their hourly pay, you're ignoring many other factors that should be a part of said decision.

Less of a risk today than in the past, but anything's possible. I picked a "better" regional back before the housing bubble popped (and oil, and SARs, age 65, etc) and man was I glad I did. Cost me some years of career progression, but I spent the long downturn home with my kids instead of doing transcon commutes to sit CA reserve at a bottom feeder.

EFBprobs
07-09-2018, 06:44 PM
Bottom line is, there's no guarantee of getting an interview anywhere. Let's make the place we're at the best it can possibly be. Why? We might be stuck, you never know. Keep the pressure on at all times.

SkySoldier91
07-12-2018, 11:28 AM
On top of that, watching the TA simply be a reshuffling of income from one category to another? Sends a bad message to potential new-hires. Why would I want to join a company that's going to try to pull a fast one? Meanwhile, Endeavor gave everyone a straight up ~20k raise last year. First through bonuses, then second through baking those into base pay rates (which helps 401k contributions and picking up open time).



Can someone please elaborate on this? I'm looking to start at a Skywest partnered flight school next month and sign up with their cadet program which now includes a $15,000 tuition reimbursement (after 1 year of employment with Skywest I believe).


I've been trying to read through this site, Skywest, and the flight school's page to attain as much information as possible before making this jump.

Excargodog
07-12-2018, 11:33 AM
I've been trying to read through this site, Skywest, and the flight school's page to attain as much information as possible before making this jump.


All good ideas. So is exploring other options besides Skywest. Know what you are getting into.

Bravix
07-12-2018, 03:47 PM
Can someone please elaborate on this? I'm looking to start at a Skywest partnered flight school next month and sign up with their cadet program which now includes a $15,000 tuition reimbursement (after 1 year of employment with Skywest I believe).


I've been trying to read through this site, Skywest, and the flight school's page to attain as much information as possible before making this jump.

Instead of providing a straight increase in pay for everyone, management reshuffled money. They took away all bonuses and profit sharing for FO's and increase the FO hourly rate. Also took away discretionary 401k for everyone. Most FO's would have seen an increase in pay overall, but not a ton. Their calculator showed me getting around a 10% pay increase, but it didn't include some of the bonuses I just started getting, or the ones I'll be getting in <6 months. It also didn't factor in an increase in profit from tax cuts, which will increase bonus value. With these considerations, the increase is actually less than 10%. Even if it was 10%, we are far enough behind other companies in pay that 10% still seems low.

Captains lost some bonuses, but kept pilot profit sharing. Small increase to hourly rate, but with everything that was taken away, it actually ended up being a pay cut for numerous pilots. For those it wasn't a pay cut, it still was barely a raise.

Also, the company didn't included pay comparison numbers for 2019. Only 2018 and then 2020. This is because in 2019, Republic gets a big raise while our pay would have been stagnant. Republic captains would be making, I want to say $3-4 more per hour than our captains, next year? I could be off on the exact number, but you get the idea. VERY underhanded.

Also, they'd be getting rid of the financial bonus which is based off of profit. Profit is expected to increase due to the new tax cuts, which means that bonus will probably be worth more, which is why management wanted to get rid of it before we realize it's increased value.

There's more to it, like a HUGE lack of quality of life improvements. As well as other trickery. We currently have a duty rig of 1 hour of pay for every 2 hours of SCHEDULED duty. The new pay agreement would have changed scheduled to ACTUAL, which is much better for days where delays cause you to sit around all day. However, this was only going to go into effect next year for some reason...

Also, there was going to be override pay if you're awarded more than X hours of work per month. So you'd get, for example, 150% for everything of 87 hours (might not be the exact value). The problem is, they used BLOCK instead of CREDIT. This is a HUGE difference. I credit over 100 hours every month. I block around 80 per month, and I'm pushing federal limits. You can only block 1000 hours per year, which averages at 83 per month. So really, this was pointless and would rarely effect most people in a meaningful way. If it was based on CREDIT, it would have been a considerable pay increase.

3GreenKSNA
07-15-2018, 06:10 AM
Tuff has it correct.

We are never going to get what we need with the paid by management SAPA. Don't get me wrong, there some very good people working for the group. But they cannot achieve what the company does not want to freely give. They are bought and paid for and there guys on the EB that like to get 105 hours of pay to not fly, some in over a year.

For those of you that fear we would languish for years to get a real contract, that's not going to happen. The company would need to quickly put together a contract to keep up with the industry and bring in new pilots.

In fact, if there was ever a time to act, it's now!

We need a real union, with national resources.

What we have is a student council that does exactly what management wants, doing exactly what they are paid to do!How well has it worked out for Frontier? Just saying......

And no I am not a sapa cheerleader.

-Keep the dirty side down

gojo
07-15-2018, 06:33 AM
How well has it worked out for Frontier? Just saying......

And no I am not a sapa cheerleader.

-Keep the dirty side down

You’re right, why seek a better contract and working conditions then. I mean if Frontier can’t do it smoothly, then probably nobody can

futurav8r
07-15-2018, 04:21 PM
You’re right, why seek a better contract and working conditions then. I mean if Frontier can’t do it smoothly, then probably nobody can
I agree with his point about Frontier...they will NOT be allowed to strike until the summer flying season is over, at least. So, anyone that says we should unionize just to be able to strike is advocating years of stagnation while negotiating, then more time dragging out before the government approves your strike. Unions just aren't that good for labor any more.



But, I still might vote for one--especially if the company starts paying out more bonuses instead of negotiating again.

gojo
07-15-2018, 06:42 PM
I agree with his point about Frontier...they will NOT be allowed to strike until the summer flying season is over, at least. So, anyone that says we should unionize just to be able to strike is advocating years of stagnation while negotiating, then more time dragging out before the government approves your strike. Unions just aren't that good for labor any more.



But, I still might vote for one--especially if the company starts paying out more bonuses instead of negotiating again.

Frontier is a bad example, probably worst case? And sure, it could go that way negotiating for a contract with Skywest. But maybe it could be the smoothest transition also. It would probably be something in between, or average. Bottom line is, if your in house union SAPA, isn’t doing its job, don’t settle for it. The problem with a company sponsored union is they still have all the leverage. Whether it was ALPA or Teamsters, neither would’ve passed that latest TA for a vote.

fortyeight
07-17-2018, 01:24 PM
All true, but going to EDV or RPA means going to NY. That alone is enough to keep the recruiting department busy. Mngt knows that.

Lol really? I’ve been at RPA 3+ years and have never been based east of ORD.

Check Complete
07-17-2018, 02:24 PM
Frontier is a bad example, probably worst case? And sure, it could go that way negotiating for a contract with Skywest. But maybe it could be the smoothest transition also. It would probably be something in between, or average. Bottom line is, if your in house union SAPA, isn’t doing its job, don’t settle for it. The problem with a company sponsored union is they still have all the leverage. Whether it was ALPA or Teamsters, neither would’ve passed that latest TA for a vote.

SAPA is useless and toothless and paid by management. People are getting fired and disciplined for things that a real unified organization with real lawyers would squash. This kind of crap is wrecking careers. We have a JV negotiating team representing your pay check and your family’s income, they’re pilots, not real contract negotiators. This and numerous other reasons is why every other large regional has real representation. And we’re the largest!

Now’s the time to stone up and change!

(But who am I kidding, it’ll never happen)

Mercyful Fate
07-18-2018, 02:53 AM
SAPA is useless and toothless and paid by management. People are getting fired and disciplined for things that a real unified organization with real lawyers would squash. This kind of crap is wrecking careers. We have a JV negotiating team representing your pay check and your family’s income, they’re pilots, not real contract negotiators. This and numerous other reasons is why every other large regional has real representation. And we’re the largest!

Now’s the time to stone up and change!

(But who am I kidding, it’ll never happen)


I want you to sit down, and read what you typed here. And then ask yourself some questions. Why is this, and how does being the largest also protect contracts and jobs? If any of the regionals that fly for a major partner were to fail, which carrier would have the most devastating impact on those majors? Stone up and swallow some reality, how about that?

JuniorFO
07-18-2018, 06:03 AM
I want you to sit down, and read what you typed here. And then ask yourself some questions. Why is this, and how does being the largest also protect contracts and jobs?

Good point. XJT was the largest, most respected and most wide spread regional airline for years and look what SkyWest did to them...

gojo
07-18-2018, 06:34 AM
Good point. XJT was the largest, most respected and most wide spread regional airline for years and look what SkyWest did to them...

Yes, aren’t you proud to be a Skywester?

Melit
07-18-2018, 06:46 AM
Good point. XJT was the largest, most respected and most wide spread regional airline for years and look what SkyWest did to them...
Good point. COMAIR was the largest, most respected and most wide spread regional airline for years and look what Delta did to them....

amcnd
07-18-2018, 06:54 AM
ACA/Independence was a large respected regional, look what they did to themselves...

Point is a “regional” is just that. Pick one that will easy the pain while you are there.. enjoy it, make friends, and move on...

Excargodog
07-18-2018, 08:23 AM
ACA/Independence was a large respected regional, look what they did to themselves...

Point is a “regional” is just that. Pick one that will easy the pain while you are there.. enjoy it, make friends, and move on...


^^^wisdom^^^

gojo
07-18-2018, 09:15 AM
ACA/Independence was a large respected regional, look what they did to themselves...

Point is a “regional” is just that. Pick one that will easy the pain while you are there.. enjoy it, make friends, and move on...

A short sighted reply. The regional was created to be just that. Build your time and move on. And in a perfect world they would be exactly that. However, a lot of good people got stuck by no fault of their own. Events like 911, the recent recession, and age 65 derailed a lot of people’s plans. Are you saying oh well? And what’s wrong with making the regionals better in case there’s another economic downturn and people are once again stuck for a while?

Check Complete
07-18-2018, 09:30 AM
Ya, you guys are right.

Silly to try and do anything to make the profession better....

Besides, SAPA rocks!

rickair7777
07-18-2018, 09:45 AM
And what’s wrong with making the regionals better in case there’s another economic downturn and people are once again stuck for a while?

Nothing in theory.

The reality is it's a massive uphill battle, and if you actually get to the top they bring in bulldozers, level your hill, and use the dirt to make a new one. Only way around that is a national regional union with portable seniority. Or a national major union which hires from a national regional union first (before mil, non-union pilots), in seniority order. If you know how to make that happen, you're a better man than I.

Focus on getting out. I would say don't play at all, but history has proven the best non-mil route to majors is still regionals.

If you're over 50, senior, and staying, it might be worthwhile to fight, it took them ten years to shut down COMAIR so you might make more with a good package even if you liquidate a few years before age 65 (as opposed to status quo to age 65).

EFBprobs
07-18-2018, 09:51 PM
A short sighted reply. The regional was created to be just that. Build your time and move on. And in a perfect world they would be exactly that. However, a lot of good people got stuck by no fault of their own. Events like 911, the recent recession, and age 65 derailed a lot of people’s plans. Are you saying oh well? And what’s wrong with making the regionals better in case there’s another economic downturn and people are once again stuck for a while?

Exactly, the likelihood of being stuck at the regionals is far greater than most realize. I fly with 10 and 15+ year CA's who have had their apps out, even interviewed, and have had no luck. If you're at SKW and think you're going to be at mainline for sure, think harder.

havick206
07-20-2018, 04:10 AM
Exactly, the likelihood of being stuck at the regionals is far greater than most realize. I fly with 10 and 15+ year CA's who have had their apps out, even interviewed, and have had no luck. If you're at SKW and think you're going to be at mainline for sure, think harder.

Are they also knocking WO’s with flow?

FedUpPayMe
07-20-2018, 05:00 AM
Exactly, the likelihood of being stuck at the regionals is far greater than most realize. I fly with 10 and 15+ year CA's who have had their apps out, even interviewed, and have had no luck. If you're at SKW and think you're going to be at mainline for sure, think harder.

EFBprobs, exactly.

My time as an FO at SkyWest has led to me to conclude just this here^

I fly with captains that have just given up because no one has called them since the lost decade. It is much harder going to a legacy carrier than a lot of folks realize. All the chips must fall under the right setting and at the right time. All too many have black marks like busted part 121 rides, bad grades in college, or 17 speeding tickets plus DUIs. There is no shortage of white regional males who also happen to be not very well connected enough to have a direct line with mainline HR departments. Being a fat regional pilot is also a no-no. It isn't something that most think about it in the process, but when someone goes to a job fair or finally shows up for in an in person interview, they are being silently critiqued on their appearance, and being overweight does not display professionalism or pride in oneself. It truly takes a revolution in lifestyle and personal behavior to get on with a major.

No one can know whether or not he or she will be stuck for the long term. We all should do our part to make the place that we are at NOW, BETTER.

Vote no to bad contracts, vote yes to ALPA.

Mercyful Fate
07-20-2018, 09:33 AM
EFBprobs, exactly.

My time as an FO at SkyWest has led to me to conclude just this here^

I fly with captains that have just given up because no one has called them since the lost decade. It is much harder going to a legacy carrier than a lot of folks realize. All the chips must fall under the right setting and at the right time. All too many have black marks like busted part 121 rides, bad grades in college, or 17 speeding tickets plus DUIs. There is no shortage of white regional males who also happen to be not very well connected enough to have a direct line with mainline HR departments. Being a fat regional pilot is also a no-no. It isn't something that most think about it in the process, but when someone goes to a job fair or finally shows up for in an in person interview, they are being silently critiqued on their appearance, and being overweight does not display professionalism or pride in oneself. It truly takes a revolution in lifestyle and personal behavior to get on with a major.

No one can know whether or not he or she will be stuck for the long term. We all should do our part to make the place that we are at NOW, BETTER.

Vote no to bad contracts, vote yes to ALPA.


http://replygif.net/i/1472.gif

FedUpPayMe
07-20-2018, 09:56 AM
snip childish shenanigans

How much is SGU paying you to post on APC? Genuinely curious why the ban hammer has not yet fallen upon this troll

Mercyful Fate
07-20-2018, 10:00 AM
How much is SGU paying you to post on APC? Genuinely curious why the ban hammer has not yet fallen upon this troll


Why should I be banned?

Melit
07-20-2018, 10:10 AM
How much is SGU paying you to post on APC? Genuinely curious why the ban hammer has not yet fallen upon this troll

Yeah why should he be?

Tpinks
07-20-2018, 11:15 AM
All true, but going to EDV or RPA means going to NY. That alone is enough to keep the recruiting department busy. Mngt knows that.

No it doesn't, at least for Republic. PIT, CMH, IND are the junior bases currently. The most junior person in LGA right now was a May 15th hire!

FedUpPayMe
07-20-2018, 04:41 PM
Yeah why should he be?

This dude posts the same dumb gif over and over again and contributes nothing to the forum. Very pro-management and anti-union. Obviously paid by SGU to promote this mindset, and doing a terrible job at it too. That is why.

Mercyful Fate
07-20-2018, 05:55 PM
This dude posts the same dumb gif over and over again and contributes nothing to the forum. Very pro-management and anti-union. Obviously paid by SGU to promote this mindset, and doing a terrible job at it too. That is why.


I have contributed plenty, and the gif is well loved.



Hey, would love to hear how much the folks in your corporate office are paying me, and who exactly is signing that check?


And why exactly do my posts get your panties into a wad? You a little insecure, or just don't like that not everyone is a union lemming?

Bartender
07-20-2018, 08:19 PM
Why are you Skywest pilots so different? No union and proud of it. Is it that south Utah inbreeding?

amcnd
07-20-2018, 08:22 PM
Why are you Skywest pilots so different? No union and proud of it. Is it that south Utah inbreeding?

Your getting 5% of what SkyWest pilots are realy like on this forum board.... If a union went to vote it would pass.. no point in hashing out the past. But there were reasons.. Under 15% of SkyWest pilots even fall into that Utah/religion base classification... And 15% is being generous..

Check Complete
07-20-2018, 08:50 PM
Why are you Skywest pilots so different? No union and proud of it. Is it that south Utah inbreeding?

I’m not proud of it.

But management spends millions fighting a union.

I wonder why?

Bravix
07-21-2018, 12:24 AM
This dude posts the same dumb gif over and over again and contributes nothing to the forum. Very pro-management and anti-union. Obviously paid by SGU to promote this mindset, and doing a terrible job at it too. That is why.

People, such as yourself, just need to learn to ignore it. Don't reply to it or acknowledge it's posts. Or just block it, would work just as well.

A sticky informing people to ignore the non-pilot who has nothing better to do than troll on a pilot forum would be fantastic.

FedUpPayMe
07-21-2018, 04:17 AM
People, such as yourself, just need to learn to ignore it. Don't reply to it or acknowledge it's posts. Or just block it, would work just as well.

A sticky informing people to ignore the non-pilot who has nothing better to do than troll on a pilot forum would be fantastic.

Right on \.m./

No more feeding the troll

FedUpPayMe
07-21-2018, 04:19 AM
Why are you Skywest pilots so different? No union and proud of it. Is it that south Utah inbreeding?

Since the Skywest ranks have been inundated with midwestern and northeastern stock with the expansion eastwards, ever higher numbers of Skywest pilots are more open to the idea of having a union. An ALPA drive would most likely turn out successful. Launching such a drive is a slow process, though. It will take some time before the vote is ever brought before the pilot group.

Mercyful Fate
07-21-2018, 07:55 AM
People, such as yourself, just need to learn to ignore it. Don't reply to it or acknowledge it's posts. Or just block it, would work just as well.

A sticky informing people to ignore the non-pilot who has nothing better to do than troll on a pilot forum would be fantastic.


Yes, woudn't that be fantastic!!!

WaterRooster
07-21-2018, 08:42 AM
Since the Skywest ranks have been inundated with midwestern and northeastern stock with the expansion eastwards, ever higher numbers of Skywest pilots are more open to the idea of having a union. An ALPA drive would most likely turn out successful. Launching such a drive is a slow process, though. It will take some time before the vote is ever brought before the pilot group.

Someone said that the guy who was spearheading the drive was just fired...

amcnd
07-21-2018, 08:53 AM
Someone said that the guy who was spearheading the drive was just fired...

What “drive”?

mpet
07-21-2018, 10:24 AM
Yes, woudn't that be fantastic!!!

Haven't you been at skywest for an eternity? You can always tell which guys just can't move on. And no the gif of that fat piece of **** chortling is not well loved.

FedUpPayMe
07-21-2018, 11:39 AM
Someone said that the guy who was spearheading the drive was just fired...

And just who might that be?

If that is true, it would only garner further support for voting yes to a union.

Check Complete
07-21-2018, 11:50 AM
Someone said that the guy who was spearheading the drive was just fired...

It's true.

And others have been called and warned too.

You can be fired here for no reason.

And before someone says they could file a suit against the company, sure, but how long could you finance it. In 40 years only 1 guy has prevailed.

uncleowen
07-21-2018, 12:41 PM
Who???????????????

Mercyful Fate
07-21-2018, 12:54 PM
It's true.

And others have been called and warned too.

You can be fired here for no reason.

And before someone says they could file a suit against the company, sure, but how long could you finance it. In 40 years only 1 guy has prevailed.


Warned by who exactly?

GoldenTicket
07-21-2018, 03:12 PM
Someone said that the guy who was spearheading the drive was just fired...

I believe a yes voter played a role in bringing him down.

Check Complete
07-21-2018, 04:06 PM
Warned by who exactly?

Probably you.

Mercyful Fate
07-21-2018, 05:20 PM
Probably you.


Yea, because I have that kind of pull.

Check Complete
07-21-2018, 06:16 PM
I would have thought that was at least worthy of your Zimmerman gif?

450knotOffice
07-21-2018, 10:16 PM
http://replygif.net/i/1472.gif


Weak. But, I expect nothing less from you.

SMH

atpcliff
07-21-2018, 10:55 PM
I think that a Regional would be better off with Teamsters than with ALPA...too much conflict of interest representing Delta AND their feeders, for example...

Note: I don't particularly like Teamsters, or ALPA...I've had both.

Mercyful Fate
07-22-2018, 02:43 AM
I would have thought that was at least worthy of your Zimmerman gif?


Nahhhhh, you have to do better than that to get a visit from Zimmerman. Lazy posting will not get you rewarded. Now, come on Check, post like ya mean it fella.

Mercyful Fate
07-22-2018, 02:46 AM
Weak. But, I expect nothing less from you.

SMH


Hey, I am just happy that you still are annoyed with me enough to post a zimmerman.

word302
07-22-2018, 04:27 PM
It's true.

And others have been called and warned too.

You can be fired here for no reason.

And before someone says they could file a suit against the company, sure, but how long could you finance it. In 40 years only 1 guy has prevailed.

None of what you say is true.

msprj2
07-23-2018, 06:40 AM
None of what you say is true.

Pretty difficult to prove either way. You could say to the best of your knowledge.

amcnd
07-23-2018, 07:36 AM
The one case was a catfight between 2 people... by knowing them both you can see how they dont het along... SkyWest doesn’t just at will fire people. If so Alpa would have been in here 20 years ago...

rickair7777
07-23-2018, 08:14 AM
The one case was a catfight between 2 people... by knowing them both you can see how they dont het along... SkyWest doesn’t just at will fire people. If so Alpa would have been in here 20 years ago...

Over the years, industry wide, I have observed that some pilots don't have the typical organization people skills that most office workers have... they are more prone fly off the handle and even come to blows over something that would be a non-event and easily deescalated by normal employees. Also keep in mind that you will be fired and career terminated if you assault someone while on the job. If you engage in mutual combat, you'll both be fired.

If you have to defend yourself, you'll also be fired, unless you have video footage, or unimpeachable witnesses that prove it was self-defense. Far better to walk away before you have to defend yourself.

This should all go without saying, but it keeps happening.

Excargodog
07-23-2018, 09:15 AM
Over the years, industry wide, I have observed that some pilots don't have the typical organization people skills that most office workers have... they are more prone fly off the handle and even come to blows over something that would be a non-event and easily deescalated by normal employees....

This should all go without saying, but it keeps happening.

So you are saying that this industry employs aircrew with impulse control disorders as well as people who are unable to control their proclivity to fly high and slow?

Whyever would anyone want to trust their spouse and children to fly on these aircraft then?

And yet it's the safest mode of transportation per passenger mile we have....

atpcliff
07-23-2018, 09:33 AM
So you are saying that this industry employs aircrew with impulse control disorders as well as people who are unable to control their proclivity to fly high and slow?

Whyever would anyone want to trust their spouse and children to fly on these aircraft then?

And yet it's the safest mode of transportation per passenger mile we have....

Sorry, not correct.

The safest mode of travel is by rail, then commercial airline travel. Third is in a vehicle (bus, taxi, etc.) driven by a professional driver. I'm not sure where travel overwater comes into the picture.

As an example, Japan has had high speed rail since the early 1950s? I recently learned that they have had ZERO fatalities with their high speed rail system. CRAZY!

Excargodog
07-23-2018, 10:46 AM
Sorry, not correct.

The safest mode of travel is by rail, then commercial airline travel. Third is in a vehicle (bus, taxi, etc.) driven by a professional driver. I'm not sure where travel overwater comes into the picture.



Not true. Or at least, not totally correct. Passenger rail in the US actually causes a relatively HIGH rate of deaths per passenger mile, although those tend NOT to be passenger deaths. Partly this is due to the rather small total passenger miles by US rail, but Amtrak trains in particular are very commonly involved in crossing fatalities since they travel a good 20-25 miles an hour faster than the freight trains that travel on the same rails.

A few very recent examples:

2 days ago · By City News Service | [email protected] | PUBLISHED: July 22, 2018 at 11:45 am | UPDATED: July 22, 2018 at 2:00 pm A train struck and killed a pedestrian on tracks just north of Oceanside today ...

Amtrak Strikes Man on Tracks in Montecito - The Santa Barbara Independent
The Santa Barbara Independent › jul › a...
4 days ago · A man was killed this morning on the railroad tracks near Montecito's Olive Mill Road, the Sheriff's Office reported. He'd been struck by the northbound Amtrak at about 6:45 a.m. The train engineer had blown .
......

PWenstrup describes helping injured in fatal train-truck collision - WHIO Tv
https://www.whio.com › news › congress...
3 days ago · One person in the truck was killed and another critically injured, while four people in the train were taken to the hospital, including U.S. Rep. Jason Lewis, R- Minnesota, a staffer and two Amtrak crew

rickair7777
07-23-2018, 11:09 AM
So you are saying that this industry employs aircrew with impulse control disorders as well as people who are unable to control their proclivity to fly high and slow?

Whyever would anyone want to trust their spouse and children to fly on these aircraft then?

And yet it's the safest mode of transportation per passenger mile we have....

I'm saying that some CA's especially are not used to conflict and interpersonal friction, probably because they are accustomed to operating in "transmit only" mode. Very few other educated white collar professionals get in fights at work, and I've worked in a variety of jobs. No one ever got in a fight in non-aviation workplaces. But there have been multiple such events at every airline I've worked at. Usually involving termination.

atpcliff
07-23-2018, 12:08 PM
Not true. Or at least, not totally correct. Passenger rail in the US actually causes a relatively HIGH rate of deaths per passenger mile, although those tend NOT to be passenger deaths. Partly this is due to the rather small total passenger miles by US rail, but Amtrak trains in particular are very commonly involved in crossing fatalities since they travel a good 20-25 miles an hour faster than the freight trains that travel on the same rails.

A few very recent examples:

2 days ago · By City News Service | [email protected] | PUBLISHED: July 22, 2018 at 11:45 am | UPDATED: July 22, 2018 at 2:00 pm A train struck and killed a pedestrian on tracks just north of Oceanside today ...

Amtrak Strikes Man on Tracks in Montecito - The Santa Barbara Independent
The Santa Barbara Independent › jul › a...
4 days ago · A man was killed this morning on the railroad tracks near Montecito's Olive Mill Road, the Sheriff's Office reported. He'd been struck by the northbound Amtrak at about 6:45 a.m. The train engineer had blown .
......

PWenstrup describes helping injured in fatal train-truck collision - WHIO Tv
https://www.whio.com › news › congress...
3 days ago · One person in the truck was killed and another critically injured, while four people in the train were taken to the hospital, including U.S. Rep. Jason Lewis, R- Minnesota, a staffer and two Amtrak crew

The above is misleading. Passenger rail in the US includes ALL pax transported by rail...u r ONLY talking about Amtrak, and leaving out the systems that carry the most by rail in the US.

Also, the Amtrak system is crap. The US had THE BEST high speed rail network in the world, and then we decided to quit doing it, and switch everyone to automobiles. We don't even have one single high speed rail system in the US. For efficient pax train travel, you need high speed rail. High speed rail uses exclusive tracks (not used also by freight trains) that have no rail/road crossings. If a track has to cross the path of a road, either the rail or roadbed goes over the other mode of travel, thus eliminating the possibility of road/rail collisions.

High speed rail is THE most efficient pax system, from about 150-650 miles in length. Above that air travel is more efficient.

Excargodog
07-23-2018, 12:20 PM
The above is misleading. Passenger rail in the US includes ALL pax transported by rail...u r ONLY talking about Amtrak, and leaving out the systems that carry the most by rail in the US.



Second verse, same as the first:


Man killed by commuter train in Mansfield - The Boston Globe
The Boston Globe › 2018/04/02 › story
Apr 3, 2018 · A man was struck and killed by a Providence-bound MBTA commuter train in Mansfield on Monday night, officials said. The man was hit around 9:30 p.m. near Norfolk Street, according to the ...
Man carrying bicycle struck and killed by commuter train in Ayer | masslive.com
MassLive.com › index.ssf › 2018/05 › m...
May 2, 2018 · A man carrying a bicycle was struck and killed by an MBTA commuter trail while walking on the tracks near the Ayer station Wednesday afternoon.
Man killed by commuter train in Cambridge – Boston News, Weather, Sports | WHDH 7News - WHDH.com
WHDH › news › one-man-dead-after-bei...
Jan 21, 2018 · CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — Boston-area transit police say a man has been struck and killed by a commuter train in Cambridge. Police, firefighters and emergency medical crews ...
Woman Killed by Commuter Train | Florida News | US News
U.S. News & World Report › articles › w...
Mar 8, 2018 · DELRAY BEACH, Fla. (AP) — Authorities say a woman is dead after being hit by a Florida commuter train.
........


Stop drinking the koolaid and do some actual research.

rickair7777
07-23-2018, 03:34 PM
Yeah, rail is not particularly safe in the US, for pax or the public.

rickair7777
07-23-2018, 03:36 PM
High speed rail is THE most efficient pax system, from about 150-650 miles in length. Above that air travel is more efficient.

That train already left the station. The NIMBY's would never allow imminent domain for new dedicated rail in the high-density areas where it would be economical. The only way would be underground rail $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Check Complete
07-23-2018, 03:53 PM
Boring, get it?

atpcliff
07-24-2018, 11:36 PM
I just looked at some stats:

In the US:
Flying is safest
Then Bus
Then rail. Rail is MANY times safer than automobile.
Autos
Motorcycles

Worldwide, airline travel is safest, then rail.

In Japan, however, rail is THE safest mode of transportation. They have had ZERO fatalities in their high speed rail network, since Day One! Amazing!

DarkSideMoon
07-25-2018, 05:32 AM
Second verse, same as the first:


Man killed by commuter train in Mansfield - The Boston Globe
The Boston Globe › 2018/04/02 › story
Apr 3, 2018 · A man was struck and killed by a Providence-bound MBTA commuter train in Mansfield on Monday night, officials said. The man was hit around 9:30 p.m. near Norfolk Street, according to the ...
Man carrying bicycle struck and killed by commuter train in Ayer | masslive.com
MassLive.com › index.ssf › 2018/05 › m...
May 2, 2018 · A man carrying a bicycle was struck and killed by an MBTA commuter trail while walking on the tracks near the Ayer station Wednesday afternoon.
Man killed by commuter train in Cambridge – Boston News, Weather, Sports | WHDH 7News - WHDH.com
WHDH › news › one-man-dead-after-bei...
Jan 21, 2018 · CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) — Boston-area transit police say a man has been struck and killed by a commuter train in Cambridge. Police, firefighters and emergency medical crews ...
Woman Killed by Commuter Train | Florida News | US News
U.S. News & World Report › articles › w...
Mar 8, 2018 · DELRAY BEACH, Fla. (AP) — Authorities say a woman is dead after being hit by a Florida commuter train.
........


Stop drinking the koolaid and do some actual research.

To be fair, if they let people freely walk across runways at airports there'd be plenty of deaths. That's a design problem, not an operation problem.

atpcliff
07-25-2018, 12:58 PM
To be fair, if they let people freely walk across runways at airports there'd be plenty of deaths. That's a design problem, not an operation problem.

EXACTLY!

For safe rail transit, the train needs to be elevated, or underground.

Japan is putting in a maglev train from Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka. The Tokyo-Nagoya route is costing them about $1BILLION USD per mile...they have 47? major tunnels on that route, due to their geography. They did the math, and realized that this expense will save their government a TON of money, due to increased efficiencies in their transportation infrastructure.

Meanwhile, US airports, seaports, waterways, ATC, roads, bridges, etc., etc. are crumbling into dust.

Bonanzer
07-26-2018, 06:32 AM
Interesting thread drift.
You guys get any further negotiations scheduled?

Flogger
07-26-2018, 06:36 AM
EXACTLY!

For safe rail transit, the train needs to be elevated, or underground.

Japan is putting in a maglev train from Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka. The Tokyo-Nagoya route is costing them about $1BILLION USD per mile...they have 47? major tunnels on that route, due to their geography. They did the math, and realized that this expense will save their government a TON of money, due to increased efficiencies in their transportation infrastructure.

Meanwhile, US airports, seaports, waterways, ATC, roads, bridges, etc., etc. are crumbling into dust.

Listen here Sheldon Cooper....this obsession with trains is nice and all, but you really should use all that intelligence on string theory.

Excargodog
07-26-2018, 07:08 AM
Meanwhile, US airports, seaports, waterways, ATC, roads, bridges, etc., etc. are crumbling into dust.

Explain how a waterway crumbles into dust... :confused:

Listen here Sheldon Cooper....this obsession with trains is nice and all, but you really should use all that intelligence on string theory.

^^^ this^^^

WesternSkies
07-26-2018, 07:11 AM
Interesting thread drift.
You guys get any further negotiations scheduled?

Sure.
Negotiations happened in July. Scheduled for the future months too.

Check Complete
07-26-2018, 09:40 AM
And as long as people come through the door, it will just be a shuffling of pay but zero real money.

History always repeats itself until you fix the problem.

DarkSideMoon
07-30-2018, 04:22 PM
Explain how a waterway crumbles into dust... :confused:



^^^ this^^^

There’s more to a waterway than water. Locks, dredging, plenty of stuff that needs maintained.

Excargodog
07-30-2018, 04:46 PM
There’s more to a waterway than water. Locks, dredging, plenty of stuff that needs maintained.

Not the definition the Coast Guard guy gave me in the boating class. And nobody dredges dust.

DarkSideMoon
07-30-2018, 05:58 PM
Not the definition the Coast Guard guy gave me in the boating class. And nobody dredges dust.

🙄. Pedantry is no fun for anyone.

Excargodog
07-30-2018, 08:27 PM
🙄. Pedantry is no fun for anyone.


The same can be said of hyperbole, yet that didn't stop the poster:

Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post

Meanwhile, US airports, seaports, waterways, ATC, roads, bridges, etc., etc. are crumbling into dust.

DarkSideMoon
07-31-2018, 05:11 AM
The same can be said of hyperbole, yet that didn't stop the poster:

Originally Posted by atpcliff View Post

Meanwhile, US airports, seaports, waterways, ATC, roads, bridges, etc., etc. are crumbling into dust.
If our infrastructure was going to college, it certainly wouldn’t make the dean’s list.
https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/state-by-state/

Excargodog
07-31-2018, 06:42 AM
If our infrastructure was going to college, it certainly wouldn’t make the dean’s list.
https://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/state-by-state/

More metaphors do not make an argument more convincing. Nor does it mean a waterway is turning to dust.

And of course the American Society of Civil Engineers wouldn't have any economic bias that would lead them to be pro- civil engineering infrastructure.

But don't get me wrong, I'm not against NEEDED infrastructure. I am against trying to import models that have evolved in areas of high population density and short distances (think Europe and Japan) into a country with relatively very low population density and long distances (think the US) and expecting them to be cost effective.

Kent
08-05-2018, 08:21 PM
Any ideas if and when another proposal will be put forward? Was that it?

Blackwing
08-05-2018, 10:21 PM
Any ideas if and when another proposal will be put forward? Was that it?
I have heard late this month or next month.

hawk21
08-06-2018, 11:57 AM
I have heard late this month or next month.


I doubt it.

skiK2
08-06-2018, 01:10 PM
I have heard late this month or next month.

We’ll be lucky to have something to vote on again in 2018.

Check Complete
08-06-2018, 01:44 PM
I have heard late this month or next month.

Nothing will change. It will be zilch money because people still show up for class. We are taking people that have failed Mesa.

I can't explain it?

Excargodog
08-06-2018, 02:11 PM
We are taking people that have failed Mesa.

:eek::eek:

amcnd
08-06-2018, 02:18 PM
Nothing will change. It will be zilch money because people still show up for class. We are taking people that have failed Mesa.

I can't explain it?

Backwards. We faild people. They went to Mesa to gain experience. Then we hired them back and they passed training.. i know of several that have taken that path...

Check Complete
08-06-2018, 04:33 PM
Glad you have all the answers.

I was told otherwise but you know everything, good for you.

How's the koolaid?

Is offline
08-06-2018, 05:27 PM
Backwards. We faild people. They went to Mesa to gain experience. Then we hired them back and they passed training.. i know of several that have taken that path...

I personally know one fo that resigned from Mesa in training and 2 weeks later that pilot was in class here. We are taking every person they can drag up and hiring them even if it’s recommended they do not hire. Now they have created this supervised line flying for these people and if something does happen it’s going to look really bad.

amcnd
08-06-2018, 05:29 PM
Glad you have all the answers.

I was told otherwise but you know everything, good for you.

How's the koolaid?

Koolaid isn’t the best right now. But we have more people interviewing after we voted no, then during the TA... not sure why? But so much for staffing class issues..

Cefiro
08-06-2018, 05:36 PM
I personally know one fo that resigned from Mesa in training and 2 weeks later that pilot was in class here. We are taking every person they can drag up and hiring them even if it’s recommended they do not hire. Now they have created this supervised line flying for these people and if something does happen it’s going to look really bad.

Can’t speak to Mesa stuff, but this is 100% true. I think their philosophy is to hire everyone and attempt to weed out during training.

Idontevenfly
08-06-2018, 06:50 PM
I personally know one fo that resigned from Mesa in training and 2 weeks later that pilot was in class here. We are taking every person they can drag up and hiring them even if it’s recommended they do not hire. Now they have created this supervised line flying for these people and if something does happen it’s going to look really bad.

So, do you just assume everyone that goes to Mesa is a terrible pilot?

Flogger
08-06-2018, 06:53 PM
We’ll be lucky to have something to vote on again in 2018.

It's so cute the way you say "vote".

Is offline
08-06-2018, 07:06 PM
So, do you just assume everyone that goes to Mesa is a terrible pilot?

Please tell me where I said every pilot that goes to Mesa is a horrible pilot? Every list out there has horrible pilots I will guarantee. OO is no different. If you’re looking for a safe space this isn’t it...

hawk21
08-06-2018, 07:58 PM
It's so cute the way you say "vote".


Calling it a contract is cute.



There's nothing wrong with saying we vote on these things though.

Paid2fly
08-06-2018, 09:22 PM
So, do you just assume everyone that goes to Mesa is a terrible pilot?









Probably no more than 3/4 of them...

:confused:


:rolleyes:


:eek:





P.S. Don't sweat it, apparently you "don't even fly"!

rickair7777
08-07-2018, 06:49 AM
Now they have created this supervised line flying for these people and if something does happen it’s going to look really bad.

Yeah I got real sick of that real fast.

rickair7777
08-07-2018, 06:51 AM
So, do you just assume everyone that goes to Mesa is a terrible pilot?

Depends on the hiring climate. Personally I would be pretty suspicious of anyone who went there today. Either they couldn't get hired at ANY other regional :eek: :eek: :eek:, have poor judgement, or a spouse who's a doctor with a good job in a mesa-only base.

amcnd
08-07-2018, 06:52 AM
Yeah I got real sick of that real fast.

SLF is used for “variant” training. After completing ioe in the 200. You dont do “ioe” in the 700/900. You do SLF. Because your already qualified in the type...

Check Complete
08-07-2018, 07:34 AM
Again, you've completely missed the point.

word302
08-07-2018, 10:45 AM
Depends on the hiring climate. Personally I would be pretty suspicious of anyone who went there today. Either they couldn't get hired at ANY other regional :eek: :eek: :eek:, have poor judgement, or a spouse who's a doctor with a good job in a mesa-only base.

Most of us are thinking the same thing about OO applicants.

saxman66
08-07-2018, 03:09 PM
Any ideas if and when another proposal will be put forward? Was that it?

I'm not that optimistic about them coming forward so soon. I think it's going to take a total meltdown of staffing and irrops for them to come back to the table. If not, I'll just enjoy the bonuses that we'll continue to get that we otherwise wouldn't have had we voted yes. It seems the trend now is that more FO's are leaving than captains. I'm not sure whether it's mostly training failures or them leaving to take the bonus and better work rules at other regionals. Perhaps a little of both.

amcnd
08-07-2018, 03:28 PM
I'm not that optimistic about them coming forward so soon. I think it's going to take a total meltdown of staffing and irrops for them to come back to the table. If not, I'll just enjoy the bonuses that we'll continue to get that we otherwise wouldn't have had we voted yes. It seems the trend now is that more FO's are leaving than captains. I'm not sure whether it's mostly training failures or them leaving to take the bonus and better work rules at other regionals. Perhaps a little of both.

Looking at the numbers. Its Equal CA/FO’s. There are high number of people with emp#’s that leave. That didn’t go to training (cadets) left training or didn’t make it through training...think this month they just “purged” the system of those guys. Thats why it looked like a higher number then usual..

Blackwing
08-07-2018, 06:02 PM
Can’t speak to Mesa stuff, but this is 100% true. I think their philosophy is to hire everyone and attempt to weed out during training.


And yet the company still cannot hire as many as they'd like. They aren't filling classes. People are no-showing for interviews.

amcnd
08-07-2018, 06:11 PM
And yet the company still cannot hire as many as they'd like. They aren't filling classes. People are no-showing for interviews.

Yesterday in SLC 7 in-person (1no show) 1 Australia Skype. Not sure about DEN interviews

word302
08-07-2018, 09:38 PM
Looking at the numbers. Its Equal CA/FO’s. There are high number of people with emp#’s that leave. That didn’t go to training (cadets) left training or didn’t make it through training...think this month they just “purged” the system of those guys. Thats why it looked like a higher number then usual..

Cadets don’t show up on the seniority list until after they start class.

rickair7777
08-08-2018, 06:26 AM
Yesterday in SLC 7 in-person (1no show) 1 Australia Skype. Not sure about DEN interviews

That's about what they were doing during the heydey 2006-2007.

Excargodog
08-08-2018, 08:52 AM
That's about what they were doing during the heydey 2006-2007.

Except those same people are interviewing - and being accepted - lots of other places. A lot of people do backup interviews. I interviewed and got CJOs from three different regionals - including Skywest - before I accepted an offer. Skywest was only a backup, never my primary, even though I qualified for their bonus.

rickair7777
08-08-2018, 09:13 AM
Except those same people are interviewing - and being accepted - lots of other places. A lot of people do backup interviews. I interviewed and got CJOs from three different regionals - including Skywest - before I accepted an offer. Skywest was only a backup, never my primary, even though I qualified for their bonus.

That's likely true. But back in the day they didn't hire all comers either.

DelTacoBowl
08-08-2018, 09:48 AM
People can say what they want about candidates not showing up etc etc, but the reality is total number of pilots on the seniority list hit 4600 in early 2018 and as of today is 4663. That means they have matched attrition. To date, their is no major collapse of pilot manning as predicted by so many all year. I think this proves that bases, not pay, are the most valuable recruiting tool for the regional industry. OO gots lots.

word302
08-08-2018, 10:40 AM
People can say what they want about candidates not showing up etc etc, but the reality is total number of pilots on the seniority list hit 4600 in early 2018 and as of today is 4663. That means they have matched attrition. To date, their is no major collapse of pilot manning as predicted by so many all year. I think this proves that bases, not pay, are the most valuable recruiting tool for the regional industry. OO gots lots.

Meh. We'll see what happens in the next 6 months. There are regionals paying much better than us in almost every one of our bases. Word is getting out quickly that, while FOs may get the base of their choosing, upgrades can go to any base as long as it's LGA, DTW, or ATL. You can hold CA on the west coast 5 years sooner at Compass or Horizon.

Melit
08-08-2018, 12:59 PM
Meh. We'll see what happens in the next 6 months. There are regionals paying much better than us in almost every one of our bases. Word is getting out quickly that, while FOs may get the base of their choosing, upgrades can go to any base as long as it's LGA, DTW, or ATL. You can hold CA on the west coast 5 years sooner at Compass or Horizon.

That's funny coming from a new hire...

word302
08-08-2018, 01:07 PM
That's funny coming from a new hire...

LOL. If 5 years is new I guess.

Ace66
08-09-2018, 12:38 PM
SLF is used for “variant” training. After completing ioe in the 200. You dont do “ioe” in the 700/900. You do SLF. Because your already qualified in the type...


Not exactly true. Some pilots did their first flights in the 700/900 and flew the 200 last. Their AQP has "IOE" listed for their 700/900 flights even though the real IOE was accomplished in the 200.

amcnd
08-09-2018, 12:39 PM
Not exactly true. Some pilots did their first flights in the 700/900 and flew the 200 last. Their AQP has "IOE" listed for their 700/900 flights even though the real IOE was accomplished in the 200.

I hope your not a chk airman. You will be messing up grader entry’s....

Ace66
08-09-2018, 12:44 PM
I hope your not a chk airman. You will be messing grader entry’s....


So how does a pilot get a Supervised Line Flight when they haven't completed IOE in the 200 yet?

amcnd
08-09-2018, 02:22 PM
So how does a pilot get a Supervised Line Flight when they haven't completed IOE in the 200 yet?

They complete it in the 700/900.

If you have done your 700 difference sim before ioe. What ever variant you start ioe in you complete it in . Then you do SLF for the other variant after ioe complete.. mater of fact im doing 200 “SLF” right now. fO completed ioe already. Now scheduling could only use him for 700/900 trips until we finish his 200 SLF trip... no line check for it just SLF untill the CHK airman feels they are proficient..



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