Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Junior CA seniority


Sliceback
07-07-2018, 06:30 PM
Used 15,100 pilots. Seniority numbers are 15,2xx but will adjust downwards by approx. 600 numbers later this month. So the percentage isn't perfect.

BOS 8,595 57%
CLT 9,588 63%
DCA 9,881 65%
DFW 9,476 63%
LAX 10,157 74%
LGA 11,214 74%
MIA 10,765 71%
ORD 10,173 67%
PHL 9,642 64%
PHX 7,923 52%

Using 15,200 and 11,214 as the junior CA a guy hired this month is projected to be able to upgrade in August 2023.

Retirements -

2018 263 +/-
2019 636
2020 771
2021 837
2022 862
2023 957
2024 935
2025 953
2026 909
2027 773
2028 683
2029 642
2030 562


Beech Dude
07-07-2018, 07:17 PM
Thanks for the always awesome stats Slice. Hopefully things work out and I make the grade in 2 yrs. :D

TransWorld
07-07-2018, 07:27 PM
With these kinds of retirement numbers the Schoolhouse will have to have more that a 40 pilot class every 2 weeks. More pilots or more frequent. Otherwise they will never make it.


Cheddar
07-07-2018, 07:42 PM
The company is so far behind schedule it’s frightening. We’re under staffed as it is, and they have no extra capacity unless we give up night sims for CQT and Transition.

FUPM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RhinoBallAuto
07-07-2018, 08:05 PM
FWIW, they are renting sims in LAS @ AGS to cover initial 320 QT... maybe elsewhere perhaps. With all the NH 737s, they’re going to need them from somewhere.

I’m not sure if that addresses the throughput concerns Cheddar mentions — you certainly won’t need extra box capacity if you’re only starting 25 of your 40 planned per class, even without all the movement and training created by retirements...

Dolphinflyer
07-08-2018, 04:03 AM
How many sims used to be in PHX? Did they transfer any?

Rawhide16
07-08-2018, 04:03 AM
I realize that most people scoff the E190 (or don't even realize that they're mainline jets and not our regional carriers) but an E190 CA is still an AA CA.

Junior PHL E190 CA is 14,262 (94%).

MidLife
07-08-2018, 04:11 AM
Is 190 CA that bad a thing to be? I heard 190 CA can be had after a year on property

Rawhide16
07-08-2018, 04:15 AM
Is 190 CA that bad a thing to be? I heard 190 CA can be had after a year on property

I don't think so other than the fact that it's Group 1 pay. Still, it can be held at about 1 year and the Group 1 CA pay is better than year 4 Group 2 FO pay. It is allegedly being retired late next year though.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 05:12 AM
I realize that most people scoff the E190 (or don't even realize that they're mainline jets and not our regional carriers) but an E190 CA is still an AA CA.

Junior PHL E190 CA is 14,262 (94%).

It's an AA Captain. Why is it so junior? Because of the pay. How many guys that have been on the property are bidding it? Almost no one, which is why it's so junior.

Group I CA 2 second year pay = Group II FO 6th year pay.
G1 CA 12th yr pay = between G2 FO 9th/10th year pay

Vs a Group II CA pay?
G1 CA pay = 65% of G2 CA pay

By the time you can upgrade to CA on the 190 you could have been a G2 FO line holder for 1-1.5 years in PHL or LGA. The pay difference is less than $10,000 to go from a line holder to a reserve Captain for 1-1.5 years and it's only based in PHL.

190 line holder is approx. 3 yrs LOS. Taking that upgrade at the 3rd year incurrs a two year lock-in and might take away the quickest G4 FO or G2 CA opportunities. Taking a 190 CA bid also takes away the one time Captain upgrade exclusion that allows you to break an existing FO bid for your first CA bid. Guys happily use that, and hope to get withheld, as G4 FO's.

That's some of the factors why it's so junior. If the pay was 90-95% of G2 pay it would go more senior.

Rawhide16
07-08-2018, 05:34 AM
It's an AA Captain. Why is it so junior? Because of the pay. How many guys that have been on the property are bidding it? Almost no one, which is why it's so junior.

Group I CA 2 second year pay = Group II FO 6th year pay.
G1 CA 12th yr pay = between G2 FO 9th/10th year pay

Vs a Group II CA pay?
G1 CA pay = 65% of G2 CA pay

By the time you can upgrade to CA on the 190 you could have been a G2 FO line holder for 1-1.5 years in PHL or LGA. The pay difference is less than $10,000 to go from a line holder to a reserve Captain for 1-1.5 years and it's only based in PHL.

190 line holder is approx. 3 yrs LOS. Taking that upgrade at the 3rd year incurrs a two year lock-in and might take away the quickest G4 FO or G2 CA opportunities. Taking a 190 CA bid also takes away the one time Captain upgrade exclusion that allows you to break an existing FO bid for your first CA bid. Guys happily use that, and hope to get withheld, as G4 FO's.

That's some of the factors why it's so junior. If the pay was 90-95% of G2 pay it would go more senior.

No arguments from me Slice. Just making sure people remember that it is an option and included in a thread titled "Junior CA Seniority" as it qualifies as such.

mainlineAF
07-08-2018, 05:51 AM
Used 15,100 pilots. Seniority numbers are 15,2xx but will adjust downwards by approx. 600 numbers later this month. So the percentage isn't perfect.



BOS 8,595 57%

CLT 9,588 63%

DCA 9,881 65%

DFW 9,476 63%

LAX 10,157 74%

LGA 11,214 74%

MIA 10,765 71%

ORD 10,173 67%

PHL 9,642 64%

PHX 7,923 52%



Using 15,200 and 11,214 as the junior CA a guy hired this month is projected to be able to upgrade in August 2023.



Retirements -



2018 263 +/-

2019 636

2020 771

2021 837

2022 862

2023 957

2024 935

2025 953

2026 909

2027 773

2028 683

2029 642

2030 562



I thought on the last bid junior 73 captain in LGA was somewhere around 11,475?

aa73
07-08-2018, 05:53 AM
BOS junior CA is about to go down to around 9600ish starting Aug 31 (the last guy who got the award on the last vacancy run starts on that date.)

Varks
07-08-2018, 06:29 AM
Training is backed up. Nothing like a 2.5 week paid vacation over the forth of July. Waiting for my R9.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 07:06 AM
My mistake. I used the current July awards. Significant changes coming up so using the September bid would have been better.

Mover
07-08-2018, 07:18 AM
According to the latest 3XP, there are 14612 pilots total with bid statuses.

PRS Guitars
07-08-2018, 07:28 AM
According to the latest 3XP, there are 14612 pilots total with bid statuses.

He used the actual seniority list, which is above 15k pilots, and made the disclaimer that numbers would drop by 600 in a few weeks.

EMBFlyer
07-08-2018, 07:56 AM
FWIW, they are renting sims in LAS @ AGS to cover initial 320 QT... maybe elsewhere perhaps. With all the NH 737s, they’re going to need them from somewhere.

I’m not sure if that addresses the throughput concerns Cheddar mentions — you certainly won’t need extra box capacity if you’re only starting 25 of your 40 planned per class, even without all the movement and training created by retirements...

They've been farming out 737 keys (Sims 1-5) to two offsite places in the Metroplex and Miami since the beginning of the year (possibly before that). They've also mentioned that Recurrents could be going offsite as well.

Mover
07-08-2018, 09:44 AM
He used the actual seniority list, which is above 15k pilots, and made the disclaimer that numbers would drop by 600 in a few weeks.

Okay. So, I added valid data to the discussion. What's the question?

Rawhide16
07-08-2018, 09:53 AM
Training is backed up. Nothing like a 2.5 week paid vacation over the forth of July. Waiting for my R9.

That is probably why I haven't heard back from SK regarding my 73 transition training since notifying her of my return from mil leave almost 2 weeks ago. I'm guessing they're trying to find a class date for me.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 11:52 AM
According to the latest 3XP, there are 14612 pilots total with bid statuses.

It gets tricky if you're trying to get exact numbers. 15,211 is the current bottom number.

14,612 on property?

All the junior CA numbers are lower than their official number. So every percentage is off to some degree.

There's been at least 611 guys come off the list. For the range of CA's posted it's 498 more senior for the senior junior CA (PHX) and 550 more senior for the junior junior base CA (LGA).

15,211 minus 611 = 14,600.

All the CA numbers are 498-550 numbers more senior.

Sliceback
07-08-2018, 12:02 PM
Updated. Used September bid awards. Adjusted for 14,600 pilots on property. Junior CA's current seniority numbers reduced by 525 (SWAG) based on actual adjustments of 498 to 550 numbers expected on the new seniority list eff. July 2018. Rounded to the nearest 10 -

BOS - 9110 62%
CLT - 9060 62%
DCA - 9360 64%
DFW - 8950 62%
LAX - 10280 70%
LGA - 10850 74%
MIA - 10240 70%
ORD - 9650 66%
PHL - 9120 62%
PHX - 6720 46%

Sliceback
07-09-2018, 07:30 AM
Updated. Used September bid awards. Adjusted for 14,600 pilots on property. Junior CA's current seniority numbers reduced by 525 (SWAG) based on actual adjustments of 498 to 550 numbers expected on the new seniority list eff. July 2018. Rounded to the nearest 10 -

BOS - 9110 62%
CLT - 9060 62%
DCA - 9360 64%
DFW - 8950 62%
LAX - 10280 70%
LGA - 10850 74%
MIA - 10240 70%
ORD - 9650 66%
PHL - 9120 62%
PHX - 7400 51%

PHX updated. 757 is junior to 320 CA.

Sliceback
07-09-2018, 07:58 AM
More junior percentages. Updated seniority numbers for G4 CA/FO and G3 CA/FO. Using the new estimated seniority numbers. Correction factor to get the current seniority number will be at the end. Total pilots with new seniority list estimated at 14,600.

G4 CA -

CLT 2310 16%
DFW 2010 14%
LGA 3010 21%
LAX 1360 9%
MIA 1890 13%
ORD 2500 17%
PHL 2540 17%

G4 FO -

CLT 9820 67%
DFW 8580 59%
LGA 11360 78%
LAX 10200 70%
MIA 10920 75%
ORD 9150 63%
PHL 11350 78%


G3 CA -

DFW 4520 31%
LGA 6430 44%
MIA 5120 35%
PHL 6150 42%
PHX 7400 51%

G3 FO -

DFW 12820 88%
LGA 13770 94%
MIA 12870 88%
PHL 12760 87%
PHX 12390 85%

G3 note - 8 767 retirements by end of 2020(25 to 18). 7 757 retirements by end of 2020 (30 to 23). Two year old schedule.
767 is supposed to shift to PHL/MIA. The percentages will probably get more senior as the fleet shrinks.

Twelve 787-8 deliveries in 2020. Supposedly for the 767 replacements. The G4 percentages will probably decrease (more junior).



Expected seniority adjustment, for each 1000 seniority block, after the new seniority list comes out -

1000 -130
2000 -240
3000 -310
4000 -380
5000 -420
6000 -460
7000 -490
8000 -530
9000 -550
10000 -570
11000 -580
12000 -600
12000+ -600

Monkey Wrench
07-09-2018, 08:59 AM
I don’t think time to upgrade is a valid measuring stick anymore. DL and AA have both had <1 year Captains in the past few years.

A combination of QOL and $ is more important to most, as evident by the group II CAs bidding back to group IV FO.

aa73
07-09-2018, 09:17 AM
I don’t think time to upgrade is a valid measuring stick anymore. DL and AA have both had <1 year Captains in the past few years.

A combination of QOL and $ is more important to most, as evident by the group II CAs bidding back to group IV FO.

The only (and big) difference being, DL has 1 year CA upgrades to Group 2 (MD88) while AA has 1 year upgrades to Group 1 (E190). Over $100/hr difference in pay. AA Group 2 CA is probably at least 7-8 years away for a new hire today.

Regarding QOL difference between Group 2 CA and Group 4 FO. All my opinion here... I’m a Group 2 CA based at home (DCA.) flying maybe 40-50hrs a month for 76hrs off pay, sometimes more depending on OG/Premium. Averaging around at least 15 days off a month, sometimes more. (they don’t call me every day I’m on reserve.) Way better QOL than a group 4 FO flying the jet lag to 3rd world countries.(and obviously getting paid more $$$.) And way more fun, And no jet lag to worry about.

To each their own though... some guys view domestic NB CA as a downgrade after flying FO on the heavy iron across the seas.

Cheddar
07-09-2018, 11:39 AM
Slice - DFW/777/FO went 10150 last bid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OVBIII
07-09-2018, 01:57 PM
Slice - DFW/777/FO went 10150 last bid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I saw that too, I was wondering what the note to the far right meant. Where could I look that up?

edit: I was looking at the CA 3XP

Sliceback
07-10-2018, 08:32 AM
Slice - DFW/777/FO went 10150 last bid


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I saw and knew that. Not sure why I put the other number down.

10,150 - 570 seniority list adjustment = 9,580. I think the 8,580 was a typo.

The seniority numbers I posted are adjusted for the estimated 2018 seniority numbers.

Correction -

DFW G4 FO - 9,580 66%

Sliceback
07-10-2018, 08:33 AM
I saw that too, I was wondering what the note to the far right meant. Where could I look that up?

edit: I was looking at the CA 3XP

FINST is an X CKA
FSSUP is an L CKA

Sliceback
07-10-2018, 08:36 AM
More junior percentages. Updated seniority numbers for G4 CA/FO and G3 CA/FO. Using the new estimated seniority numbers. Correction factor to get the current seniority number will be at the end. Total pilots with new seniority list estimated at 14,600.

G4 CA -

CLT 2310 16%
DFW 2010 14%
LGA 3010 21%
LAX 1360 9%
MIA 1890 13%
ORD 2500 17%
PHL 2540 17%

G4 FO -

CLT 9820 67%
DFW 9580 66% typo corrected
LGA 11360 78%
LAX 10200 70%
MIA 10920 75%
ORD 9150 63%
PHL 11350 78%


G3 CA -

DFW 4520 31%
LGA 6430 44%
MIA 5120 35%
PHL 6150 42%
PHX 7400 51%

G3 FO -

DFW 12820 88%
LGA 13770 94%
MIA 12870 88%
PHL 12760 87%
PHX 12390 85%

G3 note - 8 767 retirements by end of 2020(25 to 18). 7 757 retirements by end of 2020 (30 to 23). Two year old schedule.
767 is supposed to shift to PHL/MIA. The percentages will probably get more senior as the fleet shrinks.

Twelve 787-8 deliveries in 2020. Supposedly for the 767 replacements. The G4 percentages will probably decrease (more junior).



Expected seniority adjustment, for each 1000 seniority block, after the new seniority list comes out -

1000 -130
2000 -240
3000 -310
4000 -380
5000 -420
6000 -460
7000 -490
8000 -530
9000 -550
10000 -570
11000 -580
12000 -600
12000+ -600

DFW G4 FO data corrected.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1