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View Full Version : AAL outside flying policy


67Creek
07-08-2018, 05:28 AM
Can someone please quote (PM if you prefer) the language in the FOM that pertains to flying for hire outside of American?


TheRaven
07-08-2018, 07:55 PM
Commercial flying for any employer other than American Airlines or the military is not permitted.

MarineGrunt
07-09-2018, 03:52 AM
Commercial flying for any employer other than American Airlines or the military is not permitted.

While that is wha the FM1 says, many pilots fly as CFIs on the outside as well as some other jobs and many have been approved by their flight office. Dont know the process or anything, I just know that some have done it.


67Creek
07-09-2018, 04:37 AM
Thanks guys.

It's also my understanding that some fly on the outside in some limited capacity. Does the FOM have language to allow for deviation?

I'm trying to determine what would and wouldnt be blessed by the company. If the only way to do it is to lie and hope to not get caught, which I'd rather not do, I'll probably put more energy into getting on with different majors.

I intend to fly helicopters part time. I have friends with small helicopter businesses, and enjoy the occasional opportunity to fly for them.

Hubble15
07-09-2018, 05:14 AM
AA is more permissive than some others. I know guys who fly for us who also fly fighters for adversary air contractors with the flight office’s blessing. There are other airlines who have not allowed that. Ask around.

That said: you might benefit from a perspective adjustment. If you are even considering “lying and hoping not to get caught”, then you may be suffering from cranial rectitus. I fly a lot of GA, and I instruct (for free) in jet warbirds. None of it is worth putting your meal ticket at risk. You want to fly helos on the side, donate your time.

Sliceback
07-09-2018, 08:05 AM
What's that famous saying "work backwards from the hearing?"
(AA truism by long time, and sometimes author, of our Part I company ops manual).

Do you think AA is going to take the hit when they can distant themselves from corporate liability? Doing outside flying that creates FAR 117 conflicts and then have a significant event? The LIT crash discusses that. Afterwards CP's weren't allowed to do office work and go fly.

MarineGrunt
07-09-2018, 10:20 AM
Thanks guys.

It's also my understanding that some fly on the outside in some limited capacity. Does the FOM have language to allow for deviation?

I'm trying to determine what would and wouldnt be blessed by the company. If the only way to do it is to lie and hope to not get caught, which I'd rather not do, I'll probably put more energy into getting on with different majors.

I intend to fly helicopters part time. I have friends with small helicopter businesses, and enjoy the occasional opportunity to fly for them.

Whatever you do, play it straight. It would be pretty stupid to blow an easy $350k/yr job over a part time job flying egg beaters... make the best case you can, but if AA says no, Id leave it at that.

flyinawa
07-11-2018, 11:51 AM
The most fun I've had in years was doing airworthiness demonstrations on a couple of Airbuses owned by a leasing company for a potential client. That was almost 4 years ago and as great as it was I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole anymore for exactly the reason MarineGrunt stated. Fun but no comparison to $350K/year airline pilot fun.

67Creek
07-11-2018, 04:27 PM
AA is more permissive than some others.

That's good to know. Does the FOM allow a means to deviate from the policy, i.e.: "with approval" type language? Or are guys just making gentlemen's agreements with the CPs or others?



That said: you might benefit from a perspective adjustment. If you are even considering “lying and hoping not to get caught”, then you may be suffering from cranial rectitus.


The point of me posting this is to try to figure out if I can do it above board with AA. If not, I'm willing to put a bigger portion of time/money into pursing a major that will. No perspective adjustment needed.



You want to fly helos on the side, donate your time.

If I'm making airline pilot money, the money I make flying helicopters a few hours a month is a drop in the bucket and I don't need it. However, I don't believe in working for free. Taking a job away from another pilot because you're willing to do it for free, because you're making good money elsewhere, is no way to treat your fellow pilots.


That being said, I'd happily donate my time to a good cause/non-profit/etc. But I won't be doing a typically paid job for free.



Doing outside flying that creates FAR 117 conflicts and then have a significant event?


I have no intention of doing any flying that will interfere with my airline duty time or crew rest.

PRS Guitars
07-11-2018, 05:59 PM
If I'm making airline pilot money, the money I make flying helicopters a few hours a month is a drop in the bucket and I don't need it. However, I don't believe in working for free. Taking a job away from another pilot because you're willing to do it for free, because you're making good money elsewhere, is no way to treat your fellow pilots.


That being said, I'd happily donate my time to a good cause/non-profit/etc. But I won't be doing a typically paid job for free.

I agree, unless it’s friends or family, or for charity, one shouldn’t be flying for free. Even warbird instruction. I’m sure it’s fun, but it’s also dangerous and requires a lot of prior knowledge. Also it exposes you to lawsuits from family if your student ever buys the farm. All reasons you should not do that for free. Now if you’re talking about a buddy that bought a plane, or just occasional opportunities to fly a warbird, different story. If someone owners a warbird...they can certainly afford to pay for instruction.

Also, is getting compensated the company’s definition of outside professional flying? Or would acting as a CFI even for free be considered professional flying. I don’t know, just wondering.

mainlineAF
07-12-2018, 01:57 AM
What's that famous saying "work backwards from the hearing?"

(AA truism by long time, and sometimes author, of our Part I company ops manual).



Do you think AA is going to take the hit when they can distant themselves from corporate liability? Doing outside flying that creates FAR 117 conflicts and then have a significant event? The LIT crash discusses that. Afterwards CP's weren't allowed to do office work and go fly.



Pretty sure the only outside flying that would create a 117 conflict would be 91k/135.

RhinoBallAuto
07-12-2018, 05:07 AM
4.3.7 Flying Outside of American Airlines
A. Outside Flying for Compensation
Commercial flying for any employer other than American Airlines or the military is not permitted.

B. AA / APA Pilot contract, Section 24N
This agreement contemplates that pilots shall devote their entire professional flying service to the company, except that nothing in this agreement shall be construed to prevent any pilot from affiliating with the military service of the United States.

C. Military Flying
Employees may engage in military flying in accordance with applicable laws as well as contractual agreements with the APA. Applicable administrative procedures may be obtained from the Base Chief Pilots.

D. Personal Flying
Flying for personal transportation or pleasure is permitted providing that it does not interfere with performance of company duties.

Cheddar
07-12-2018, 09:01 AM
I had an offer about 18 months ago to ferry an older Boeing for a group that I had worked for previously. I gave them a crazy quote hoping that they would say no and we could just still be amicable with people I had worked with previously (you never want to burn a bridge!). Well... they said yes and I about had a stroke. Even with them offering me a ridiculous daily rate with 5 days guaranteed, I didnt even think twice with saying thanks but no thanks. Never even thought about asking a CP - theres too much that could go wrong even if the company said ok. Seriously, this job is too good to jeopardize.

I totally understand the desire to go do other things - I loved what I did before, and I think I was actually pretty good at it - but that pales in comparison to having a great career at a legacy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sliceback
07-12-2018, 09:58 AM
I have no intention of doing any flying that will interfere with my airline duty time or crew rest.

How do you plan on doing that on reserve?

How do you plan on doing that on a forward looking basis? Are you going to have the company add your outside flying to their 117 calculations? Don't hold your breath on that.

It's almost impossible to do on a forward looking basis, especially when line values are as high as they are today. Years ago, when line values were 70-75, then 78, then 83, it was easier. Now line values can hit 90+.

You can do it for charity. But doing paid work, for free, takes a paying job from someone less fortunate.

67Creek
07-12-2018, 12:15 PM
4.3.7 Flying Outside of American Airlines

Thank you for digging that up for me! I very much appreciate it.

How do you plan on doing that on reserve?

I don't plan to do outside flying on reserve. That'd be dumb.

How do you plan on doing that on a forward looking basis?

By sticking with Part 91 flying.

But doing paid work, for free, takes a paying job from someone less fortunate.

I feel the same, which is why I said I wouldn't be doing revenue work for free.

RhinoBallAuto
07-12-2018, 12:31 PM
I spent some time looking into this about a year before applying... There are ways around 117 limits. You would be flying as a 1099 employee / independent contractor (like a CFI) and not as a W4 employee. You still need to ensure you're fit for duty and not risking fatigue.

But the AA FM Part 1 is clear. Not to prevent you from asking for a mother-may-I because anything it's possible, but I wouldn't recommend doing so on probation.