Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




GregSa
07-10-2018, 01:35 AM
Just wondering the pass and fail rate for the 121 ground school for this company. I have read the article on the TSA website already. Just wanting to.hear from others experience how it is and if you fail what happens.


headcase
07-10-2018, 03:34 AM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/regional/113379-so-what-newbie-training-washout-rate.html

Knobcrk1
07-10-2018, 06:03 AM
Just wondering the pass and fail rate for the 121 ground school for this company. I have read the article on the TSA website already. Just wanting to.hear from others experience how it is and if you fail what happens.

What is your experience and age? The older guys that have no idea what they’re getting themselves into, like the fact that they will have to fly airline procedures, have a tough time with it. Its not “hard” training at all it’s easy. It’s just for whatever reason the flows and airline procedures dont compute with some guys. The cases you hear of failing or dropping out are guys that can’t do an ILS with proper call outs or can’t do steep turns etc, I mean it’s not rocket science. Just do some of that pilot stuff and you’ll be fine.

The training is not designed to teach you how to fly a steep turn amongst other things, they expect you to be able to do it in a jet. That’s an example of what guys have a problem with. They expect to be given time to learn and practice these tasks. You just dont have enough time to be learning private pilot stuff during sim, you will run out of time.


GregSa
07-10-2018, 09:25 AM
I'm 30 year old army blackhawk pilot with about 600 hrs total time. All rotary time. No fix wing. I'm looking to do the Transition.

What ILS Callouts are they specifically are thru looking for? Where your at in the apparoach as far as way points? Decision altitude? Advising tower when needed?

havick206
07-10-2018, 10:30 AM
I'm 30 year old army blackhawk pilot with about 600 hrs total time. All rotary time. No fix wing. I'm looking to do the Transition.

What ILS Callouts are they specifically are thru looking for? Where your at in the apparoach as far as way points? Decision altitude? Advising tower when needed?

Each company is different. But think of all the callouts for various phases of flight the same as patter with your co-pilot and crew chief in a UH60.

Knobcrk1
07-10-2018, 10:56 AM
I'm 30 year old army blackhawk pilot with about 600 hrs total time. All rotary time. No fix wing. I'm looking to do the Transition.

What ILS Callouts are they specifically are thru looking for? Where your at in the apparoach as far as way points? Decision altitude? Advising tower when needed?

They’ll tell you when you get to training. Every airline has specific scripts or call outs you follow for each phase of flight as a pilot flying and monitoring. Takeoff for example has like 10 call outs or events in it like when to put the flaps up or speeds etc...Also specific tasks in the cockpit you have to follow each and every time from powered up, fight and shutdown at the gate. I think guys are coming in not understanding what it is they signed up to do and think all we do is shut the door start the engine and put the gear up. It’s very structured.

NobodyLikesMe
07-10-2018, 02:56 PM
If you are really interested in working for a 121 airline you need to be equipped with the ability to fly airline flights. In my experience, the guys that couldn't make it through the program weren't even failing on callouts, they were failing because they couldn't fly instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are a multitude of reasons that guys are busting out of training. All of them can be summated by saying they just aren't ready for this type of flying. I've seen guys not make it from not being able to program the FMC. I've also seen guys not be able to maintain straight and level +/- 700ft. The biggest recurring issue I've seen amongst the Rotor guys that don't make it is a complete lack of instrument skills and knowledge coupled with a very poor understanding of the autopilot and how to interface with it to make the airplane do what you want. When you fly this jet or any jet these days, it is absolutely critical you understand the autopilot. When you took your checkrides in the past, you were evaluated on your ability to control the airplane and maintain that control within a specific set of parameters set forth by some regulatory agency. In the civilian side of things that's the Practical Test Standards. When you fly this jet, you're going to be graded on the same thing, but there's a whole new facet to flying it: Automation. 90% of the guys that washout (from my experience) failed on this. You're going to have to fly this bird in very tight ATP standards with automation, so if you have no idea what each and every button does and how to verify with the airplane on the Flight Mode Annunciator what it's trying to do, you will not make it. I guarantee you. The Rotor guys I saw come through had very little automation experience and by the time I got to see them, they had already made it through systems and mostly through Systems Integration Training. Needless to say, if you make it to SIM with very little knowledge of how to use the autopilot, you won't do well.


The other big problem I saw was instrument skills. If you don't know how to identify a fix on an approach or know where you are without seeing outside, you will not make it. I saw a rotor guy who didn't know what DME was. If you don't know what DME is, you really aren't equipped for airline flying.


I tell guys this. The 121 training environment is a bring your own tools environment. What I mean by that, is that the programs at most regionals are not AQP and therefor there's no "gate" style training to pass before moving on (e.g. you don't do procedures stuff and then take a small checkride on that before moving onto emergencies). You have to bring all the tools required to "build" your repertoire of airline flying skills. You will not have time and you will not be taught in any portion of the training what a VOR, NDB, DME, ILS, LDA, Standard Instrument Departure (SID), Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR), etc is. You will be expected to show up with all of this knowledge. Within the first couple of GFS and SIMS you'll be going through how to shoot an approach in this plane. If you're shooting your first ILS in 2+ years and are a little fuzzy on DME, you're way behind.


I'm not trying to belittle you or in any way say you are not a knowledgeable fella, but to answer your questions, this is my experience with rotor to wing guys coming into training.

My recommendation is that if you are serious about coming to the 121 airline world, make sure that you read up on instrument stuff. Dig in to the Instrument Pilot Handbook and maybe even go take a couple of IFR flights even if it's in a FRASCA. The last thing you'll want to have to gather while you're trying to figure out what the autopilot is doing is your situational awareness (where you are, etc)

Hopefully, other guys will fill in here and correct me if need be. This is all just my experience.


PM me if you have any questions or want more detail about training.

FlyingKat
07-10-2018, 04:48 PM
If you are really interested in working for a 121 airline you need to be equipped with the ability to fly airline flights. In my experience, the guys that couldn't make it through the program weren't even failing on callouts, they were failing because they couldn't fly instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are a multitude of reasons that guys are busting out of training. All of them can be summated by saying they just aren't ready for this type of flying. I've seen guys not make it from not being able to program the FMC. I've also seen guys not be able to maintain straight and level +/- 700ft. The biggest recurring issue I've seen amongst the Rotor guys that don't make it is a complete lack of instrument skills and knowledge coupled with a very poor understanding of the autopilot and how to interface with it to make the airplane do what you want. When you fly this jet or any jet these days, it is absolutely critical you understand the autopilot. When you took your checkrides in the past, you were evaluated on your ability to control the airplane and maintain that control within a specific set of parameters set forth by some regulatory agency. In the civilian side of things that's the Practical Test Standards. When you fly this jet, you're going to be graded on the same thing, but there's a whole new facet to flying it: Automation. 90% of the guys that washout (from my experience) failed on this. You're going to have to fly this bird in very tight ATP standards with automation, so if you have no idea what each and every button does and how to verify with the airplane on the Flight Mode Annunciator what it's trying to do, you will not make it. I guarantee you. The Rotor guys I saw come through had very little automation experience and by the time I got to see them, they had already made it through systems and mostly through Systems Integration Training. Needless to say, if you make it to SIM with very little knowledge of how to use the autopilot, you won't do well.


The other big problem I saw was instrument skills. If you don't know how to identify a fix on an approach or know where you are without seeing outside, you will not make it. I saw a rotor guy who didn't know what DME was. If you don't know what DME is, you really aren't equipped for airline flying.


I tell guys this. The 121 training environment is a bring your own tools environment. What I mean by that, is that the programs at most regionals are not AQP and therefor there's no "gate" style training to pass before moving on (e.g. you don't do procedures stuff and then take a small checkride on that before moving onto emergencies). You have to bring all the tools required to "build" your repertoire of airline flying skills. You will not have time and you will not be taught in any portion of the training what a VOR, NDB, DME, ILS, LDA, Standard Instrument Departure (SID), Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR), etc is. You will be expected to show up with all of this knowledge. Within the first couple of GFS and SIMS you'll be going through how to shoot an approach in this plane. If you're shooting your first ILS in 2+ years and are a little fuzzy on DME, you're way behind.


I'm not trying to belittle you or in any way say you are not a knowledgeable fella, but to answer your questions, this is my experience with rotor to wing guys coming into training.

My recommendation is that if you are serious about coming to the 121 airline world, make sure that you read up on instrument stuff. Dig in to the Instrument Pilot Handbook and maybe even go take a couple of IFR flights even if it's in a FRASCA. The last thing you'll want to have to gather while you're trying to figure out what the autopilot is doing is your situational awareness (where you are, etc)

Hopefully, other guys will fill in here and correct me if need be. This is all just my experience.


PM me if you have any questions or want more detail about training.


Well said. The only thing I would add to this is make sure you keep up and study in training. You'd be amazed how many guys fail out for taking orals, etc way too lightly. Really important to know your flows and procedures before you get to the GFS, and the SIM. Those sessions should be for polishing up little things, not learning big things.

Not a bad idea to have a desktop simulator on a laptop with you to chair fly some of the SIM scenarios either, particularly if you are having issues with basic instrument flying or flying approaches.

Is also not unusual to have an issue in training. Just make sure you keep the right attitude with it and you will survive. Have a bad attitude or have to many issues and you are gone. Also make sure you don't waste your mulligans on silly things like showing up for a check ride with an 8710 filled out improperly (or not at all), showing up late, or not showing up prepared for a GFS or Sim session.

Knobcrk1
07-10-2018, 07:12 PM
If you are really interested in working for a 121 airline you need to be equipped with the ability to fly airline flights. In my experience, the guys that couldn't make it through the program weren't even failing on callouts, they were failing because they couldn't fly instruments. Don't get me wrong, there are a multitude of reasons that guys are busting out of training. All of them can be summated by saying they just aren't ready for this type of flying. I've seen guys not make it from not being able to program the FMC. I've also seen guys not be able to maintain straight and level +/- 700ft. The biggest recurring issue I've seen amongst the Rotor guys that don't make it is a complete lack of instrument skills and knowledge coupled with a very poor understanding of the autopilot and how to interface with it to make the airplane do what you want. When you fly this jet or any jet these days, it is absolutely critical you understand the autopilot. When you took your checkrides in the past, you were evaluated on your ability to control the airplane and maintain that control within a specific set of parameters set forth by some regulatory agency. In the civilian side of things that's the Practical Test Standards. When you fly this jet, you're going to be graded on the same thing, but there's a whole new facet to flying it: Automation. 90% of the guys that washout (from my experience) failed on this. You're going to have to fly this bird in very tight ATP standards with automation, so if you have no idea what each and every button does and how to verify with the airplane on the Flight Mode Annunciator what it's trying to do, you will not make it. I guarantee you. The Rotor guys I saw come through had very little automation experience and by the time I got to see them, they had already made it through systems and mostly through Systems Integration Training. Needless to say, if you make it to SIM with very little knowledge of how to use the autopilot, you won't do well.


The other big problem I saw was instrument skills. If you don't know how to identify a fix on an approach or know where you are without seeing outside, you will not make it. I saw a rotor guy who didn't know what DME was. If you don't know what DME is, you really aren't equipped for airline flying.


I tell guys this. The 121 training environment is a bring your own tools environment. What I mean by that, is that the programs at most regionals are not AQP and therefor there's no "gate" style training to pass before moving on (e.g. you don't do procedures stuff and then take a small checkride on that before moving onto emergencies). You have to bring all the tools required to "build" your repertoire of airline flying skills. You will not have time and you will not be taught in any portion of the training what a VOR, NDB, DME, ILS, LDA, Standard Instrument Departure (SID), Standard Terminal Arrival Route (STAR), etc is. You will be expected to show up with all of this knowledge. Within the first couple of GFS and SIMS you'll be going through how to shoot an approach in this plane. If you're shooting your first ILS in 2+ years and are a little fuzzy on DME, you're way behind.


I'm not trying to belittle you or in any way say you are not a knowledgeable fella, but to answer your questions, this is my experience with rotor to wing guys coming into training.

My recommendation is that if you are serious about coming to the 121 airline world, make sure that you read up on instrument stuff. Dig in to the Instrument Pilot Handbook and maybe even go take a couple of IFR flights even if it's in a FRASCA. The last thing you'll want to have to gather while you're trying to figure out what the autopilot is doing is your situational awareness (where you are, etc)

Hopefully, other guys will fill in here and correct me if need be. This is all just my experience.


PM me if you have any questions or want more detail about training.


Exactly, they're not ready for the type of flying. It's amazing how they really have no idea what's expected. Some of the guys I saw made me question how they had a paying flying job before this. I think as airline pilots we get a bad rap in the industry as lazy and we don't do anything but monitor the computers but you really have to know what you're doing to be able to do that! If you come in with no experience you at least have to be a good pilot that knows your stuff.

GregSa
07-10-2018, 11:45 PM
Wow everyone thanks for replying.

To be specific I fly Mike model Blackhawks that's have a flight director and works very well for instrument flying. DME is a thing inside that aircraft. Once turned final it will capture course and glide slope of an ILS and hold it very well. I refrain from making turns using the cyclic and just turn knobs on the flight director and leave the computer to hold airspeed and altitude for me. As
Opposed to the Lima model IFR is a breeze and very enjoyable. This is just some of the stuff it does. However we dont do RNAV approaches. GPS is in the aircraft is corruptable.

Me personally as a pilot I LOVE instruments and I would fly IFR all the time if I could. There are some things I will need to review such as STARs. I did SIDs at flight school however I will review then again. Idk if this is the attitude or mindset the airlines are looking for but it is mine. Im worried not having flown an airplane and hoping to learn a particular airframe in 3 months is enough time. But I look back on it. That's about what I had in flight school anyway. I am allowed to utilize the sim to practice procedures and callouts in my time off yes? Or do I need that flight sim software in my room or was that just a good idea?

When people do fail what happens to them? Are they removed from the course? Told thank you for being here but you need to leave now?

Knobcrk1
07-11-2018, 06:41 AM
Wow everyone thanks for replying.

To be specific I fly Mike model Blackhawks that's have a flight director and works very well for instrument flying. DME is a thing inside that aircraft. Once turned final it will capture course and glide slope of an ILS and hold it very well. I refrain from making turns using the cyclic and just turn knobs on the flight director and leave the computer to hold airspeed and altitude for me. As
Opposed to the Lima model IFR is a breeze and very enjoyable. This is just some of the stuff it does. However we dont do RNAV approaches. GPS is in the aircraft is corruptable.

Me personally as a pilot I LOVE instruments and I would fly IFR all the time if I could. There are some things I will need to review such as STARs. I did SIDs at flight school however I will review then again. Idk if this is the attitude or mindset the airlines are looking for but it is mine. Im worried not having flown an airplane and hoping to learn a particular airframe in 3 months is enough time. But I look back on it. That's about what I had in flight school anyway. I am allowed to utilize the sim to practice procedures and callouts in my time off yes? Or do I need that flight sim software in my room or was that just a good idea?

When people do fail what happens to them? Are they removed from the course? Told thank you for being here but you need to leave now?

Other than a cheap small paper of the cockpit layout used to practice chair flying and flows in your hotel room, you will not get any actual sim to practice on. They’ll give you a few days of computerized cockpit layout training but even that is really to brush up on what you should know from chair flying yourself. If you use any of the cockpit training events in the course to “learn” something, especially sim, you are already behind. You should already know what you’re doing as far as procedures and cockpit flows. They won’t remove you until they know for sure you are hopeless after taking a lot of sim sessions. Most guys just resign on their own knowing they’re too far behind.

bnkangle
07-11-2018, 09:08 AM
Level D sims cost about $1000/hour to use, so no you won’t be able to use it after class. Sims are usually rented out months in advance, too.

Excargodog
07-11-2018, 09:16 AM
Level D sims cost about $1000/hour to use, so no you won’t be able to use it after class. Sims are usually rented out months in advance, too.

And with the number of repeat sessions now being required in new hire training - regional industry wide- open sessions are in real short supply.

NobodyLikesMe
07-11-2018, 10:58 AM
You sound pretty motivated. This whole industry needs more people like that. Everybody's response is pretty spot on. You won't have access to empty sims and if you do that will be because you needed it for extra training. One thing you CAN use at your disposal is your peers. That sounds pretty terrible, but it's the best tool you'll have. Learn from other people's mistakes. If you truly are motivated. When you get hired, go and observe as many new hire training sims as you possibly can. Watch your peers make mistakes. Listen to the instructors give pointers and tips. Sit in on the pre-briefs and de-briefs. Always make sure that it's ok with the instructor and students because just like jumpseating, you're not guaranteed an observation. This is your access to sims. Other than that, there's a simulator for FSX you can buy from FeelThere simulations on the 145. It'll be good for familiarizing yourself with the cockpit and going through flows. It'll also be good for going through the motions of approaches and callouts.

One thing you'll need to get good at too is thinking about 3 times as fast as you do in your current plane. You'll be going roughly 180kts in simworld. You're travelling 3 miles a minute in these jets. So you've got to be thinking always 3-5 miles in front of this plane.

If you "fail" there's not necessarily a termination. Failing has multiple meanings here, so to answer your questions, it's appropriate to talk about all of them.

You can't really fail much in the way of ground school. I suppose you could, it's definitely been done, but if you're failing tests in ground school you'll probably be let go due simply to the fact that it's a very straight forward process. Failing in ground simply means you don't care and they're not going to dump big money into people who dont care.

Failing orals has happened too. That's a hit or miss thing. If you're failing your oral for showing up with no paperwork done, not following the new hire checklist, not having your ipad charged and updated, that kind of stuff may not be tolerated especially if you have a track record of these habits. If your oral is from lack of knowledge, but you really tried and you're showing it, you'll probably get another chance.

Failing a checkride in the sim rings true of every other stage. You'll usually get plenty of sims to ensure that your first shot on a checkride is the only one you'll need. Nobody is going to send you to a checkride unprepared. If you've reached your 20th sim and you just don't get it, it's probably going to be time for you and your carrier to part ways. If you get to your check and you fail from an honest mistake you're not terminated.

It really all depends on

1.) Your work ethic
2.) Your overall progress.

It's all about "reason". It's not reasonable to pay thousands of dollars an hour to help someone figure out the relationship between pitch, power, and performance. It is reasonable to pay thousands of dollars for someone who needs one or two more sims to get their non-precision, single engine, hand flown, raw data approaches ironed out and looking good.

If you are at the point where you are let go, it's like any other job. You're let go. There'll be talks before that point.

Show up with a good work ethic, make progress, ask questions, study and be prepared and you'd be very unlikely to "fail" or be terminated.

SideFlare
07-11-2018, 11:10 AM
Hey dude, former military rotor-type guy here now at an LCC after a stint in the CRJ-200. For me, the biggest issue (as mentioned previously) was the automation. Flying the airplane was easy, it was making it do what you wanted via buttons, knobs, and various mode selection options that took some time adapting to. I flew “steam-gauge” AH-1Ws in my previous life, relying solely on TACAN or PAR/ASR approaches, so having to deal with an FCP took some getting used to. That said, I made it through both training programs without issue. You’ll have ample time to learn the flows and profiles prior to getting in the sim, which is the second half of the battle. The -60 sounds like it’s a generation ahead of the Cobra technology-wise, so I’d expect that to help you out significantly. Bottom line, show up, study, and be prepared to do things the way the training department specifies. If you have a good attitude, you’ll be fine. Low stress compared to brown-out landings and the like, I promise. Hit me up with any rotor transition questions if you need it, and best of luck!

As far as pass/fail, the only guys that got the hook had less-than-stellar attitudes. If you’re teachable and express a desire to be there, they’ll work with you. Be humble, be on time, and don’t be a d1ck...

GregSa
07-11-2018, 02:12 PM
Alright looks like I'm gonna be downloading flight sim stuff on my computer and using that in my free time. I'll also be doing study groups because I know that helps me.

Are Jeppsen approach plates being used? I'm use to DoD and FAA pubs.

Making an account on here and asking questions has been one of the best things I've done for research in this industry. I sincerely appreciate all the well detailed input provided by everyone on here. I welcome any more advice and experience as usual and I'll be back.

SideFlare
07-11-2018, 02:20 PM
Most companies will give you the option of Jepps or DOD plates for the interview, but Jepps seems to be the prevailing standard out there. Plenty of good YouTube vids breaking out the differences, but they’re very much the same.

GregSa
07-11-2018, 02:42 PM
Hey dude, former military rotor-type guy here now at an LCC after a stint in the CRJ-200. For me, the biggest issue (as mentioned previously) was the automation. Flying the airplane was easy, it was making it do what you wanted via buttons, knobs, and various mode selection options that took some time adapting to. I flew “steam-gauge” AH-1Ws in my previous life, relying solely on TACAN or PAR/ASR approaches, so having to deal with an FCP took some getting used to. That said, I made it through both training programs without issue. You’ll have ample time to learn the flows and profiles prior to getting in the sim, which is the second half of the battle. The -60 sounds like it’s a generation ahead of the Cobra technology-wise, so I’d expect that to help you out significantly. Bottom line, show up, study, and be prepared to do things the way the training department specifies. If you have a good attitude, you’ll be fine. Low stress compared to brown-out landings and the like, I promise. Hit me up with any rotor transition questions if you need it, and best of luck!

As far as pass/fail, the only guys that got the hook had less-than-stellar attitudes. If you’re teachable and express a desire to be there, they’ll work with you. Be humble, be on time, and don’t be a d1ck...

I went through army flight school as a single dad. Needless to say I was pretty stressed out, and to be honest I didn't find actual flight school to be fun and I learned more when I got to my unit. I'm anticipating the same type of environment but everyone tells me it's not like that. I'll expect the worst and anything better will be great. Thank you for sharing your experience.

NobodyLikesMe
07-11-2018, 04:31 PM
Alright looks like I'm gonna be downloading flight sim stuff on my computer and using that in my free time. I'll also be doing study groups because I know that helps me.

Are Jeppsen approach plates being used? I'm use to DoD and FAA pubs.

Making an account on here and asking questions has been one of the best things I've done for research in this industry. I sincerely appreciate all the well detailed input provided by everyone on here. I welcome any more advice and experience as usual and I'll be back.

We use LIDO (Lufthansa) charts at TSA. They're similar to Jeppesen in that they are approach plates and thats about it.

You probably won't be able to get your hands on many of those. If you can, good for you and look over them. They share some symbology.

I don't know what they use for the interview, but if you have a good idea of approach symbology you should be fine.

lovesrjs
07-11-2018, 05:27 PM
Just wondering the pass and fail rate for the 121 ground school for this company. I have read the article on the TSA website already. Just wanting to.hear from others experience how it is and if you fail what happens.

Everyone passes ground school. It’s the sims where they wash out. Know your flows, chair fly, know your callouts, observe 3-4 sim sessions and Jumpseat to see the real thing. You’ll be fine.

GregSa
07-12-2018, 07:52 AM
Everyone passes ground school. It’s the sims where they wash out. Know your flows, chair fly, know your callouts, observe 3-4 sim sessions and Jumpseat to see the real thing. You’ll be fine.


I will be able to observe the Simulators when I report to St louis for training (that is if the instructors and students are ok with it)?

Glenn Would
07-12-2018, 09:55 AM
GregSA, check your PM's.

Knobcrk1
07-12-2018, 10:06 AM
I will be able to observe the Simulators when I report to St louis for training (that is if the instructors and students are ok with it)?


Yes you will. But you’ll get jumpseat privilage first week of class. It’s much better to observe an actual flight than the sim because usually guys are still fumbling around in the sim since they’re new. Or make sure to observe a session of ones that are almost finished. It sounds like you have the right attitude but honestly experience will help you out more. Since you don’t have experience flying fixed wing IFR you need to double your efforts. Your mind will literally be juggling multiple tasks of procedures, flows, callouts and flying the plane. Guys that fail consistently forget to think about the big picture. Don’t get focused on one task that you might be messing up and then forget the other tasks snowballing into failing the whole event. Think about why your doing that task and how it fits into the grand scheme of things. Big picture stuff, plane goes up down left right. You’re just flying a plane, it still flys same as a 172.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1