Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : TA RSV Pros/Cons


texpilot
07-11-2018, 05:56 AM
Trying to create a pro/con RSV list... Please add others and I'll update the list. Not in any order of importance. Also, let me know if I'm not understanding something correctly.

--Pro--

-LC/SC
-14 hour max day.
-More days off, no more PRL's.
-First day start no earlier than 1000 (SC).
-DRO should be completed earlier.
-Can bid all RSV days in one block.
-Virtual release of 1700 on last day of the month (helps for bidding the next month and being awarded a line).
-2:30 SC call out, a gain of 15 minutes from current call out time.
-Hybrid no longer contains RSV days unless desired.
-High time RSV will not work for free over 75 hours if not given a trip.
-Retained last day REL.
-Day off encroachment if delayed past 0300.
-Not assigned a pairing that ends after 1659 on day prior to vacation.
-NO AIRPORT READY RESERVE.

--Con--

-Can't bid on trips if have over 40 hours of credit.
-D silo is exempt from starting at 0800 the next calendar day if operating within 2 hours of the WOCL. (Possible back to back red-eyes?)
-It's still the DRO.
-Can only bid on trips that equal number of RSV days left (SC, not LC).
-Conversion from LC to SC $100 compensation, up to 5 times. Would like to see a bit more money.
-Being rescheduled 1 minute outside of original footprint does not necessarily trigger the 5 hours PRM/JRM anymore.
-Still must make positive contact with Crew Scheduling if in a LVL 2/3 and not given reassignment (can use the call back feature, but we all know how horrible it is to contact them in this situation, would like to see the onus on them).
-Senior pilot is still given earlier time in their silo, so they will be used first.
-Assignment can go until 0059 and be considered same day, no longer 2359.

Tex


PasserOGas
07-11-2018, 06:09 AM
Trying to create a pro/con RSV list... Please add others and I'll update the list. Not in any order of importance. Also, let me know if I'm not understanding something correctly.

--Pro--

-LC/SC
-14 hour max day.
-More days off, no more PRL's.
-First day start no earlier than 1000 (SC).
-DRO should be completed earlier.
-Can bid all RSV days in one block.
-Virtual release of 1700 on last day of the month (helps for bidding the next month and being awarded a line).
-2:30 SC call out, a gain of 15 minutes from current call out time.
-Hybrid no longer contains RSV days unless desired.
-High time RSV will not work for free over 75 hours if not given a trip.
-Retained last day REL.
-Day off encroachment if delayed past 0300.
-Not assigned a pairing that ends after 1659 on day prior to vacation.
-NO AIRPORT READY RESERVE.

--Con--

-Can't bid on trips if have over 40 hours of credit.
-D silo is exempt from starting at 0800 the next calendar day if operating within 2 hours of the WOCL. (Possible back to back red-eyes?)
-It's still the DRO.
-Can only bid on trips that equal number of RSV days left (SC, not LC).
-Conversion from LC to SC $100 compensation, up to 5 times. Would like to see a bit more money.
-Being rescheduled 1 minute outside of original footprint does not necessarily trigger the 5 hours PRM/JRM anymore.
-Still must make positive contact with Crew Scheduling if in a LVL 2/3 and not given reassignment (can use the call back feature, but we all know how horrible it is to contact them in this situation, would like to see the onus on them).
-Senior pilot is still given earlier time in their silo, so they will be used first.
-Assignment can go until 0059 and be considered same day, no longer 2359.

Tex


Good write up. Don't forget that when CS calls you the clock starts. No more positive contact required. If you cannot get ahold of them you must assume you will report. For dual bases this could be iffy.

The reserve rules are basically a wash from our current system. Some gains, some give backs.

texpilot
07-11-2018, 06:31 AM
Good point POG. That's also why I put it's basically 15 minutes extra for the callout. For others, we used to have 15 minutes to contact them, so it was basically 2:15 call out. Now it's 2:30 from first contact attempt. I also seem to remember from that TA that the callout time didn't start until the pairing was placed on your JetCrew schedule, which sometimes takes a bit longer than when the call happens. I'll have to look into this more when I have a second.

Tex


BluesClues
07-11-2018, 06:39 AM
The reserve rules are basically a wash from our current system. Some gains, some give backs.

With statements like this I question your ability to analytically determine anything. The reserve section has massive improvements to QOL.

expectholding
07-11-2018, 06:59 AM
Trying to create a pro/con RSV list... Please add others and I'll update the list. Not in any order of importance. Also, let me know if I'm not understanding something correctly.

--Pro--

-LC/SC
-14 hour max day.
-More days off, no more PRL's.
-First day start no earlier than 1000 (SC).
-DRO should be completed earlier.
-Can bid all RSV days in one block.
-Virtual release of 1700 on last day of the month (helps for bidding the next month and being awarded a line).
-2:30 SC call out, a gain of 15 minutes from current call out time.
-Hybrid no longer contains RSV days unless desired.
-High time RSV will not work for free over 75 hours if not given a trip.
-Retained last day REL.
-Day off encroachment if delayed past 0300.
-Not assigned a pairing that ends after 1659 on day prior to vacation.
-NO AIRPORT READY RESERVE.

--Con--

-Can't bid on trips if have over 40 hours of credit.
-D silo is exempt from starting at 0800 the next calendar day if operating within 2 hours of the WOCL. (Possible back to back red-eyes?)
-It's still the DRO. we dont have to dig around check an excel spreadsheet anymore...and the company cant restart the process to. capture trips becoming available like they do today. at 0300, anything that becomes available must go to open time. probably won't see delays...but its JB
-Can only bid on trips that equal number of RSV days left (SC, not LC).
-Conversion from LC to SC $100 compensation, up to 5 times. Would like to see a bit more money. Never thought of this as a con personally. Not being able to convert more than 5 times seems like a pro to me, and this will cover a crashedpad.
-Being rescheduled 1 minute outside of original footprint does not necessarily trigger the 5 hours PRM/JRM anymore.
-Still must make positive contact with Crew Scheduling if in a LVL 2/3 and not given reassignment (can use the call back feature, but we all know how horrible it is to contact them in this situation, would like to see the onus on them). This will impact us less since number of cancels to meet Level 2-3 IROP have been increased
-Senior pilot is still given earlier time in their silo, so they will be used first.
-Assignment can go until 0059 and be considered same day, no longer 2359. Lineholders can now drop...say...a 2-day that ends on day 3 at 0030, without the reserve grid for that day 3 needing to be green. that was always kind of BS.

Tex


-Day off encroachment if delayed past 0300.
This one is kind of big. If you're delayed past 0100, you trigger the calendar day toward the ADG (albeit toward guarantee) and then at 0300 you get either play over guarantee or a comp day off. Can't say I've seen that anywhere.

Couple more things that were missed.
-6/on 2 off is waivable and the company has to manage 30 hours off

-if a LCR gets assignment in DRO @ 0800 on day 1 for day 2, lets say at noon...they are done until report time of that pairing. no obligation to answer CS any longer.

Also, I commented on some background on the items above and why they are what they are, I asked about these at BOS roadshow.

There are a lot of games to play for reserves with this new system - both for LC and SC. I'm a reserve and want them for myself, so I'm not going to share them :)...but read carefully.

texpilot
07-11-2018, 07:11 AM
-Day off encroachment if delayed past 0300.
This one is kind of big. If you're delayed past 0100, you trigger the calendar day toward the ADG (albeit toward guarantee) and then at 0300 you get either play over guarantee or a comp day off. Can't say I've seen that anywhere.

Couple more things that were missed.
-6/on 2 off is waivable and the company has to manage 30 hours off

-if a LCR gets assignment in DRO @ 0800 on day 1 for day 2, lets say at noon...they are done until report time of that pairing. no obligation to answer CS any longer.

Also, I commented on some background on the items above and why they are what they are, I asked about these at BOS roadshow.

There are a lot of games to play for reserves with this new system - both for LC and SC. I'm a reserve and want them for myself, so I'm not going to share them :)...but read carefully.

All good points. Thanks for the contribution.

Tex

Mattio
07-11-2018, 08:39 AM
You missed one big Con with the TA reserve:

If you bid for Long Call and can't hold it, you will end up with a Short Call schedule, or vice versa. (You can't bounce back to bidding a line once you bid reserve. From the ALPA Scheduling video.)

texpilot
07-11-2018, 09:27 AM
You missed one big Con with the TA reserve:

If you bid for Long Call and can't hold it, you will end up with a Short Call schedule, or vice versa. (You can't bounce back to bidding a line once you bid reserve. From the ALPA Scheduling video.)

I donít have much experience with this.... let me see if I understand. Under the TA if you bid LC RSV, but canít hold it, you get kicked to SCL. But youíd prefer if you canít hold LC, youíd rather have a bid below LC that would then bid a line and not kick you to SCL? So weíre not going to be able to bid a LC-LINE-SCL type hierarchy? That does kinda suck, I didnít realize that.

I would think most people who want a line will bid it first, but I could see this being a problem in certain instances.

We had LC at my regional, it was the same assignment logic, and I hated it, those guys worked alll the time. Now commuting out of base, LC could be a much better option.

Thanks for pointing that out; I wonder if it was done on purpose, or an oversight.

Tex

Mattio
07-11-2018, 09:35 AM
Looked at an old post of mine from a while back and it was around 1:08:30 in the Scheduling video unless the video has changed.

Mattio
07-11-2018, 09:42 AM
I also took it to mean that you can't bid SCL then a line. Maybe you want SCL if it will get you certain days off but if it won't then you want a line so you can work the tradeboard.. That is something that we're currently able to do but wouldn't be able to under the TA.

dontsurf
07-11-2018, 09:59 AM
-D silo is exempt from starting at 0800 the next calendar day if operating within 2 hours of the WOCL. (Possible back to back red-eyes?)

- this isn't a correct reading of that section. C silo would have the same stuff. we can do 3 back-to-back redeyes now, and we can do 3 with the TA. the TA codifies what the FSM already says about the 2 hours of the WOCL stuff, and it is that you can't be given a reserve start time of before 0800 on the following day (like the day after), not the day you just finished at, say, 0415 or something.


-Being rescheduled 1 minute outside of original footprint does not necessarily trigger the 5 hours PRM/JRM anymore.

- i thought that now it is whatever is flown/deadheaded at 190%, not 5 hours minimum? this doesn't happen to me much.

-Assignment can go until 0059 and be considered same day, no longer 2359.

- it isn't currently 2359, unless i am not understanding what you're referring to here. under current rules you are still on the same "day" until 0300 or 0301, i forget which.



and yes, a huge improvement over current reserve rules. is it perfect? no. is anything perfect? no. there are definitely some annoyances. here's a con:

it says SCL start no earlier than 1000, but you have to bid a C or D silo in order for that to be the case. both C and D silos can give you redeyes. it should have been written that you can bid silo B, and they have to give you a 1000, 1100, 1130, whatever time start at 1000 or after in silo B. it is a scam that just to get the "first day start after 1000" you have to be eligible for a redeye.

i would have also liked to have seen them let us move our reserve days around (with green days on the grid, of course) to have only 2 or maybe even one reserve day, and only one day off in between. more flexibility, in other words. we can now waive some stuff in the original bid, but apparently not when trying to adjust our schedules.

here's another pro:

they can only force you into silo D 6 times per month (well, bid period). that is good for junior people who don't want to be in silo D but are going to get stuck with it.

donk74
07-11-2018, 10:37 AM
Pro???

25.X.14 Additional Disrupted Reserve Pilot provisions
a. A Reserve Pilot who has reported for a Pairing shall have his Pairing disrupted in the same manner as a Pilot who is not a Reserve Pilot.

Does this mean the same for pay credit, once on your schedule the credit is yours because it is now your OSP pairing?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

texpilot
07-11-2018, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by texpilot View Post
-D silo is exempt from starting at 0800 the next calendar day if operating within 2 hours of the WOCL. (Possible back to back red-eyes?)

- this isn't a correct reading of that section. C silo would have the same stuff. we can do 3 back-to-back redeyes now, and we can do 3 with the TA. the TA codifies what the FSM already says about the 2 hours of the WOCL stuff, and it is that you can't be given a reserve start time of before 0800 on the following day (like the day after), not the day you just finished at, say, 0415 or something.

So how is this not a correct reading? Currently, a RSV cannot fly back to back red eyes as a line holder can. As a line holder, you can finish a redeye in the morning and do another redeye that night. A current RSV finishes the same redeye, but can’t work that same day, can’t even start until 0800 the next calendar day.

C silo doesn’t have the same stuff, TA specifically says D silo waves that protection: The TA:

“WOCL Encroachment
A Reserve Pilot (excluding a Pilot assigned a D silo RAP) on an operating Segment transiting more than two (2) hours in the WOCL (excluding Pairing assignments reporting at or after 0300 Base local time) shall not be assigned a RAP or a Pairing starting before 0800 Base local time the next calendar day. A Pilot may waive this provision.”


The way this TA is worded, the D silo will be able to fly a redeye again the same night they finish.

I HOPE I’m reading it wrong; tell me why my interpretation is incorrect.

"-Being rescheduled 1 minute outside of original footprint does not necessarily trigger the 5 hours PRM/JRM anymore.

- i thought that now it is whatever is flown/deadheaded at 190%, not 5 hours minimum? this doesn't happen to me much."

As of now, when rescheduled 1 minute past OSP, it's an automatic 5 hours at 190%. That will not necessarily kick in under the TA, depending on the time period rescheduled.

"-Assignment can go until 0059 and be considered same day, no longer 2359.

- it isn't currently 2359, unless i am not understanding what you're referring to here. under current rules you are still on the same "day" until 0300 or 0301, i forget which."

Currently, a RSV day "ends" at 2359. Under the TA it will end, for assignment purposes at 0059. As of now you wont be assigned a trip that is scheduled to end past 2359 on your last day. This is no longer under the TA; they can assign you a "2 day" trip on your last day of RSV if it finishes before 0059.

Writing on an Iphone, hope this comes out correctly.

Tex

Rabid Seagull
07-11-2018, 11:07 AM
Hmm, let me see if this helps?
I think dontsurf is correct, this does codify what we already have.

Phx 3day. ( which will go senior anyway:) )

Day 1:lets say it departs in silo D. Rsv pilot in silo D is assigned trip
Day2 depart PHX late evening. Flies 2 hours in WOCL.
Day3 arrives BOS 0700.
Reserve pilot not scheduled for next day before 0800, unless waived.

I think where you're getting hung up on the silo D carveout is, above scenario the rsv pilot on day 2 is not assigned a silo, so no carve out.

'Upon completion of a pairing, a sc rsv shall be released from duty for the remainder of the day'

So you can't be put back on a silo D for that night...so it'll be at least 0800 the next day.

Mud probably:confused:

texpilot
07-11-2018, 11:17 AM
Hmm, let me see if this helps?
I think dontsurf is correct, this does codify what we already have.

Phx 3day. ( which will go senior anyway:) )

Day 1:lets say it departs in silo D. Rsv pilot in silo D is assigned trip
Day2 depart PHX late evening. Flies 2 hours in WOCL.
Day3 arrives BOS 0700.
Reserve pilot not scheduled for next day before 0800, unless waived.

I think where you're getting hung up on the silo D carveout is, above scenario the rsv pilot on day 2 is not assigned a silo, so no carve out.

'Upon completion of a pairing, a sc rsv shall be released from duty for the remainder of the day'

So you can't be put back on a silo D for that night...so it'll be at least 0800 the next day.

Mud probably:confused:


Haha, I appreciate it!

I'm not really talking about 3 day or 4 days trips, I'm talking about how this applies to a redeye turn. The BQN's, PSE's and such.

As of now, a RSV can't do them back to back, land in the morning do it again that night. This wording leaves me to believe a D silo can land from a a redeye turn, and do another one that night.

What do you think?

Tex

Edit: Should have said redeye turns from the beginning, sorry about that.

Rabid Seagull
07-11-2018, 11:18 AM
Oh, and to answer your first question:

CON:
-December 31, 2019-

Silos...whatever, company still has control over them. Don't need a silo C for tomorrow...

First legal pilot gets the trip, not first pilot in the silo

You highlighted -NO AIRPORT RESERVE- Well, we didn't have that before. I hope we didn't give up $.15 of per diem for that ( just giving you cr$p).

I'm not sure this TA really helps out junior rsv folk. As a senior, commuting rsv guy I think I'll be able to make it work.

Rabid Seagull
07-11-2018, 11:25 AM
Haha, I appreciate it!

I'm not really talking about 3 day or 4 days trips, I'm talking about how this applies to a redeye turn. The BQN's, PSE's and such.

As of now, a RSV can't do them back to back, land in the morning do it again that night. This wording leaves me to believe a D silo can land from a a redeye turn, and do another one that night.

What do you think?

Tex

Edit: Should have said redeye turns from the beginning, sorry about that.

I hope that the 'shall be released from duty for the remainder of the day' quote applies to that. Finished for the day, but since you were silo D, you may start before 0800 the next day.

Thick mud now

texpilot
07-11-2018, 11:28 AM
I hope that the 'shall be released from duty for the remainder of the day' quote applies to that. Finished for the day, but since you were silo D, you may start before 0800 the next day.

Thick mud now


That would help! Whereís it say that RS?!

Thanks,
Tex

seekingblue
07-11-2018, 11:34 AM
First legal pilot gets the trip, not first pilot in the silo



Not sure how it will work, but there will be a bypass option.

Rabid Seagull
07-11-2018, 11:35 AM
25.R.5.g

Filler

texpilot
07-11-2018, 11:43 AM
25.R.5.g

Filler

g. Upon completion of a Pairing, a Short Call Reserve shall be released from Duty for the remainder of the day, unless Section 25.X applies.

Boom! Thank you RS.

Tex

Mattio
07-11-2018, 12:14 PM
Not sure how it will work, but there will be a bypass option.

The bypass option is only available when you have the same exact RAP start time as someone else. I rarely see two people with the same exact RAP start time on the 190, they usually stagger it by at least 30 minutes... maybe it happens on the airbus?

Mattio
07-11-2018, 12:18 PM
Also, there is no bypass option for Long Call guys.

Rabid Seagull
07-11-2018, 01:25 PM
The bypass option is only available when you have the same exact RAP start time as someone else. I rarely see two people with the same exact RAP start time on the 190, they usually stagger it by at least 30 minutes... maybe it happens on the airbus?

Rainbows and unicorns

I do like the title of that section:

-Short call reserve pairing assignment pass for next day assignments-

Well, if it's for next day assignments, why wouldn't a long call rsv get it?
Company already admitting they won't have long call reserves.

Now that section WILL come in handy before the DRO is complete, with opentime, to be assigned to only SCR ( because the 2 long call rsv's are busy).
Awarded in seniority order with pilots that have equal number of reserve days OR after the DRO with the same RAP ( not likely, like you mentioned)

Southerner
07-11-2018, 03:09 PM
One thing that we should consider is that if the TA fails, some of these work rules will absolutely be modified. It is not the case that everything improves, no matter what. Pay rates will likely go up, but there may be a loss in some of the work rules sections.

Just food for thought.

texpilot
07-11-2018, 03:16 PM
One thing that we should consider is that if the TA fails, some of these work rules will absolutely be modified. It is not the case that everything improves, no matter what. Pay rates will likely go up, but there may be a loss in some of the work rules sections.

Just food for thought.

True.

Tex

queue
07-11-2018, 06:39 PM
One thing that we should consider is that if the TA fails, some of these work rules will absolutely be modified. It is not the case that everything improves, no matter what. Pay rates will likely go up, but there may be a loss in some of the work rules sections.

Just food for thought.

Pure fear mongering and speculation. What we get is directly proportional to what we are willing to tolerate.

Think like a winner and you will win. Think like a defeatist, establishment, regional mentality, low rent pilot, and you will get exactly what you deserve.

We need to start winning, not just continuing to wave the white flag because people like you tell us we can't win.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-11-2018, 06:43 PM
Good write up. Don't forget that when CS calls you the clock starts. No more positive contact required. If you cannot get ahold of them you must assume you will report. For dual bases this could be iffy.

The reserve rules are basically a wash from our current system. Some gains, some give backs.

And it's super vague about establishing positive contact using JetCrw. It doesn't explicitly say that you MUST ACKNOWLEDGE in order for it to be considered positive contact. We know that BJ already considers leaving you voicemail positive contact because someone has already gotten in big trouble for not answering their voicemail (that they didn't know they had).

The wording on this contract is horrible and dangerous.

Prove me wrong apologists and defeatists.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

HeloBubba53
07-13-2018, 03:57 PM
I am trying to figure out (in this new TA) what is more beneficial for a guy who lives in base and bids reserve in order to not work very much. Should he bid LCR or SCR? SCR nets you an extra day off, but it's hard to say which guy will be used more. Any thoughts?

hilltopflyer
07-13-2018, 04:02 PM
I am trying to figure out (in this new TA) what is more beneficial for a guy who lives in base and bids reserve in order to not work very much. Should he bid LCR or SCR? SCR nets you an extra day off, but it's hard to say which guy will be used more. Any thoughts?

Lcr will be used a ton I bet.

texpilot
07-13-2018, 04:04 PM
I am trying to figure out (in this new TA) what is more beneficial for a guy who lives in base and bids reserve in order to not work very much. Should he bid LCR or SCR? SCR nets you an extra day off, but it's hard to say which guy will be used more. Any thoughts?

I think weíll have to wait and see... at my regional, (fu&k, I hate even saying that) the LC were used more than the SC. LC sounded great, but you basically worked every RSV day...

I live in base, and bid RSV. Iíve done about 160 hours a year for 5 years. Iím anticipating bidding SC, but like I said, Iíll see how it works out.

Not sure that was helpful,
Tex

Southerner
07-13-2018, 04:29 PM
I think weíll have to wait and see... at my regional, (fu&k, I hate even saying that) the LC were used more than the SC. LC sounded great, but you basically worked every RSV day...

I live in base, and bid RSV. Iíve done about 160 hours a year for 5 years. Iím anticipating bidding SC, but like I said, Iíll see how it works out.

Not sure that was helpful,
Tex

All known open time will absolutely go to the long call reserves. So they will fly more than a short call reserve. If you're in base, short call reserve is the way to go, for sure.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1