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View Full Version : Hot Cabins


Fr8Thrust
07-11-2018, 10:45 AM
Just want to raise awareness about cabin temperature since it is summertime.

Iíve encountered the following within the last couple weeks:

1. CAs who do not turn on the APU/Packs when the FAs inform them it is hot in the cabin.

2. FOs who are the only pilot onboard afraid to turn on the APU while the FAs are sweating and have asked for air.

3. Pilots who refuse to turn on the APU/Packs when another pilot politely informs them it is hot in the cabin.

The FOM permits APU usage when needed for situations like this. The APU fuel burn is about 300#/hr with two packs and a generator going. Deselecting one pack will yield around 200#/hr and if youíre really concerned you can deselect the APU generator until ready to pull ground power.

Encourage your FAs to crack a door to get some fresh air from time to time, if they arenít get air fast enough. And letís remind FOs that they are the PIC if they are the only pilot onboard (god forbid an emergency happens and they fail to take command).

Bottom line is you have enough fuel to turn on the APU even at 45-60 mins prior. If low fuel is a concern, ask for +200#, or more if needed. Burning fuel is always going to be better than denying boarding because the cabin is too hot or having someone pass out.

Just be a decent person, you wouldnít want to sweat at work, so why should your fellow inflight crew or passengers.

Safe flying, and when in doubt APU on! (unless of course itís deferred)


mpet
07-11-2018, 12:03 PM
But but but Delta's profit sharing

Aviator147
07-11-2018, 03:43 PM
exactly! if the fueler was hooked up I'd ask them to go 300lbs over Planned which was a nice little buffer, and say you missed them, no issue to call them out on the radio and get another couple hundred pounds put back on. Don't be shy and stay cool!


VIRotate
07-11-2018, 05:24 PM
10000% agree and thanks for posting this! Iím not a CA just yet but if Iím the only pilot on board and itís hot as $&@! Iím cranking that thing. CA gets on and I just say ďcranked the APU because it was hot as $&@!.

ErlichBlachman
07-11-2018, 05:53 PM
Quick question for those who may have been in a similar situation. CA is running late and as soon as I sit down the plane is already on ground power and hotter than Juarez. I figure I'll start it up and get the plane cooling off... except the fueler is just getting hooked up and doing his business (large uplift for DFW with an alternate so this is going to take a little while). My understanding is that we aren't supposed to change electrical sources during fueling, but are we also precluded from deselecting the APU gen and spinning it for the packs while fueling and leaving it on the GPU until that's taken care of?

I opted not to start it and if there's nothing against doing so, that decision will haunt me for the rest of my days.

poorflyer
07-11-2018, 06:13 PM
I don't think you're supposed to start or stop while fueling for risk of a fire. You're also not supposed to change AC power source as well I'm sure for risk of a electrical power surge. FOM has the answers though.

poutine
07-11-2018, 06:44 PM
I don't think you're supposed to start or stop while fueling for risk of a fire. You're also not supposed to change AC power source as well I'm sure for risk of a electrical power surge. FOM has the answers though.

To my understanding, AOM 2-12.2 says: The APU "MAY NOT" be started during refueling/defueling.
'MAY NOT' still sound optional to me, and I have been doing it all the time, who knows how long it takes for those fuelers to slack off down there.

Then next sentence says: 'DO NOT' start the APU during refueling/defueling if an APU shutdown or a failed APU start occurred.
That I wont mess with! But it also proves that above is optional. Just my 2 cents.

BobbyLeeSwagger
07-11-2018, 08:45 PM
If my airplane is hotter than a bike outside a bar in Tijuana, then I'm starting the APU. Usually it's just the fuel panel that's open anyway when it says 'Door Fueling' or whatever ;)

FlyingKat
07-11-2018, 08:48 PM
If my airplane is hotter than a bike outside a bar in Tijuana, then I'm starting the APU. Usually it's just the fuel panel that's open anyway when it says 'Door Fueling' or whatever ;)

You guys have APUs? Thought deferred APUs were SOP at Trans States Holdings.....:eek:

Aviator147
07-11-2018, 09:53 PM
To my understanding, AOM 2-12.2 says: The APU "MAY NOT" be started during refueling/defueling.
'MAY NOT' still sound optional to me, and I have been doing it all the time, who knows how long it takes for those fuelers to slack off down there.

Then next sentence says: 'DO NOT' start the APU during refueling/defueling if an APU shutdown or a failed APU start occurred.
That I wont mess with! But it also proves that above is optional. Just my 2 cents.

if I didn't see the Fuel quantity actually going up then I'd crank it even if the panel door was open.

Beech Dude
07-12-2018, 05:12 AM
Yes, a miserably hot airplane is no fun. Just curious...Do your guys' FOMs or SOPs give a temperature limitation for the avionics? If the cockpit gets above 95F for us; it's APU on and Cockpit pax on.

FlytheSky
07-12-2018, 08:11 AM
Yes, a miserably hot airplane is no fun. Just curious...Do your guys' FOMs or SOPs give a temperature limitation for the avionics? If the cockpit gets above 95F for us; it's APU on and Cockpit pax on.

It isn't written down anywhere besides a general "passenger comfort." My technique (read, personal SOP) is whenever I see the ECS actual temp for the cockpit or anywhere in the cabin go above 25C (77F), it's time to crank the APU. Easy enough for me to remember and keeps complaints to a minimum.

PanchoBarnes
07-12-2018, 09:04 AM
Thank you!!
I have heard from multiple crews now about captains who forbid to turn it on until 5prior to push. Personally Iím off the gate by then if at all possible.
My point is, passenger comfort is paramount! And a 90degree cabin is actually a safety issue, likely to cause a medical emergency.

If youíre warm, or the cabin is warm please turn on the APU!
And start it before fueling if itís warm outside, that way you donít have to wait for fueling to finish if youíre concerned.
Call the fueler back if you need it. Though Iíve never seen it be an issue.

PanchoBarnes
07-12-2018, 09:11 AM
If my airplane is hotter than a bike outside a bar in Tijuana, then I'm starting the APU. Usually it's just the fuel panel that's open anyway when it says 'Door Fueling' or whatever ;)

X2
Joking aside, this is actually typical. Theyíll leave it open with no hose attached. Look outside.

Iím thinking about coming back with a new username APUturnNburn

BobbyLeeSwagger
07-12-2018, 09:38 AM
Iím thinking about coming back with a new username APUturnNburn

I hear that, I've thought about giving mine away and doing NotoriusP.I.C.

My buddy came up with it

poutine
07-12-2018, 10:52 AM
And start it before fueling if itís warm outside, that way you donít have to wait for fueling to finish if youíre concerned.
Call the fueler back if you need it. Though Iíve never seen it be an issue.

Again, I don't really see why we have to wait for fueler finish ed doing their job, see my above post, AOM only says "MAY NOT".

Aviator147
07-12-2018, 11:22 AM
Again, I don't really see why we have to wait for fueler finish ed doing their job, see my above post, AOM only says "MAY NOT".

idk, "MAY NOT", sounds pretty restrictive and definitive and isn't up for interpretation IMO...

if theres no more fuel coming onto the a/c and the fuel panel is still open then I'd crank it.

poutine
07-12-2018, 11:41 AM
idk, "MAY NOT", sounds pretty restrictive and definitive and isn't up for interpretation IMO...

if theres no more fuel coming onto the a/c and the fuel panel is still open then I'd crank it.

But then why in the AOM the next sentence say 'DO NOT' during APU failed to start or it shuts off itself? Why not just make it an any scenario 'a no matter what happen thing'.

Check below, only the word MUST means mandatory.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/plain_language/articles/mandatory/

word302
07-12-2018, 12:11 PM
But then why in the AOM the next sentence say 'DO NOT' during APU failed to start or it shuts off itself? Why not just make it an any scenario 'a no matter what happen thing'.

Check below, only the word MUST means mandatory.
https://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/plain_language/articles/mandatory/

Ask yourself ďhow would I argue my case to the fedsĒ, I think youíll have your answer.

FlytheSky
07-12-2018, 12:26 PM
Thank you!!
I have heard from multiple crews now about captains who forbid to turn it on until 5prior to push. Personally Iím off the gate by then if at all possible.
My point is, passenger comfort is paramount! And a 90degree cabin is actually a safety issue, likely to cause a medical emergency.

If youíre warm, or the cabin is warm please turn on the APU!
And start it before fueling if itís warm outside, that way you donít have to wait for fueling to finish if youíre concerned.
Call the fueler back if you need it. Though Iíve never seen it be an issue.

Exactly! How can you start it at D-5 when you push at D-8? I don't understand... I always tell the gate agents "hey, we'd like to get out of here early" (especially on go home day). Never had any complaints about doing that.

PanchoBarnes
07-12-2018, 01:53 PM
poutine I think you are misunderstanding the use of the term ďmay notĒ in this case. It definitely is intended to be restrictive.

701EV
07-19-2018, 10:24 AM
Is that a E-175 issue that you're not allowed to start the APU while fueling or is it a company policy. On the CRJ's you can start the APU regardless of what the fueler is doing. Just curious.

701EV

Beechnutz
07-19-2018, 10:32 AM
Company Iím pretty sure anyway.

At DEN in the 200ís we had to shut them down while fueling because the exhaust was blowing right at the fuel trucks. The 700 it didnít matter.

Tpinks
07-22-2018, 06:09 PM
Quick question for those who may have been in a similar situation. CA is running late and as soon as I sit down the plane is already on ground power and hotter than Juarez. I figure I'll start it up and get the plane cooling off... except the fueler is just getting hooked up and doing his business (large uplift for DFW with an alternate so this is going to take a little while). My understanding is that we aren't supposed to change electrical sources during fueling, but are we also precluded from deselecting the APU gen and spinning it for the packs while fueling and leaving it on the GPU until that's taken care of?

I opted not to start it and if there's nothing against doing so, that decision will haunt me for the rest of my days.

I don't think you're supposed to start or stop while fueling for risk of a fire. You're also not supposed to change AC power source as well I'm sure for risk of a electrical power surge. FOM has the answers though.

To my understanding, AOM 2-12.2 says: The APU "MAY NOT" be started during refueling/defueling.
'MAY NOT' still sound optional to me, and I have been doing it all the time, who knows how long it takes for those fuelers to slack off down there.

Then next sentence says: 'DO NOT' start the APU during refueling/defueling if an APU shutdown or a failed APU start occurred.
That I wont mess with! But it also proves that above is optional. Just my 2 cents.

I AM NOT ADVOCATING YOU BREAK YOUR AIRLINE'S SOPs...

But...

At republic we had similar language in our manuals. It previously was an Embraer suggested limitation to not start the APU or turn it off while fueling. Embraer revised their manuals either late last year or earlier this year, which removed that limitation (timeframe has all blurred together so I can't remember exactly when...). So we are able to start and stop the APU at any time while the fueling process is going on.

We however still have the limitation of not connecting or disconnecting ground power while actively fueling. I believe that is a grounding issue.