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View Full Version : new hires/flow not shaving?


justfun
07-15-2018, 01:54 PM
As I understand it there is a new hire/flow thru FB page. Which is a good thing so that they can pass along nice to know things about AA and how to navigate the antiquated DECS program, and probably answer some contract stuff.


There has been some discussion about the fact that some dont show up for work unshaven. The CA calls them on it and they are ****ed because of it?! Really, you are ****ed because, the CA asks why you are not shaved when coming to work in a uniform that represents our profession?



I don't think it is that hard to show up in a clean uniform, clean shaven and have clean shoes/boots too?



Have some pride in what you do and how you look.


A330FoodCritic
07-15-2018, 02:32 PM
As I understand it there is a new hire/flow thru FB page. Which is a good thing so that they can pass along nice to know things about AA and how to navigate the antiquated DECS program, and probably answer some contract stuff.


There has been some discussion about the fact that some dont show up for work unshaven. The CA calls them on it and they are ****ed because of it?! Really, you are ****ed because, the CA asks why you are not shaved when coming to work in a uniform that represents our profession?



I don't think it is that hard to show up in a clean uniform, clean shaven and have clean shoes/boots too?



Have some pride in what you do and how you look.

Well I hope those unshaven guys have a better command of English than you.

Gooselives
07-15-2018, 02:33 PM
I am confused why this is directed to new hires and flow thrus...have you walked around some terminals lately..AA rap in this regard is not the best :/


Gooselives
07-15-2018, 02:53 PM
As I understand it there is a new hire/flow thru FB page. Which is a good thing so that they can pass along nice to know things about AA and how to navigate the antiquated DECS program, and probably answer some contract stuff.


There has been some discussion about the fact that some dont show up for work unshaven. The CA calls them on it and they are ****ed because of it?! Really, you are ****ed because, the CA asks why you are not shaved when coming to work in a uniform that represents our profession?



I don't think it is that hard to show up in a clean uniform, clean shaven and have clean shoes/boots too?

Isnt that a reason why some pick AA...the chillaxed atmosphere?????????

Have some pride in what you do and how you look. ..........

flyinawa
07-15-2018, 03:24 PM
All smart-azzing aside...

I agree with you. Even if you have some beef with AA, you still represent yourself when you're at work. If you want to people to treat you with respect, start by looking like a professional.

sherpster
07-15-2018, 03:34 PM
Im a new hire and I havent seen unshaven FOís but I do see a lot of sloppy CPTís in black tennis shoes.

BeechPilot33
07-15-2018, 04:25 PM
Im a new hire and I havent seen unshaven FOís but I do see a lot of sloppy CPTís in black tennis shoes.

Yeah, he is a walking telle tubby with un tucked shirt and black tennis shoes but he is clean shaven.

BeechPilot33
07-15-2018, 04:29 PM
All smart-azzing aside...

I agree with you. Even if you have some beef with AA, you still represent yourself when you're at work. If you want to people to treat you with respect, start by looking like a professional.


Should go without saying donít come to work looking like a slob. Especially new hires.

Chairforce
07-15-2018, 04:34 PM
Me fail English? Thatís umpossible

Cheddar
07-15-2018, 05:50 PM
Iíll shave because FM1 says shave. But we have male flight attendants that donít shave, wear makeup and have earrings. We have a CEO and management team that rarely wear ties.

A well trimmed beard and no tie would look much better than a tie with a short sleeved shirt. All Iím missing is my AA pocket protector.

Many European/ME and ANZAC carriers wear beards/goatees. They look a helluva lot more professional than most US flight crews.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Name User
07-15-2018, 07:06 PM
Personally I identify as a woman so I don't wear a tie. It's pretty sweet.

justfun
07-15-2018, 07:30 PM
Congrats you are correct that it was not written correctly. The point still remains the same though. You come to work with a day or nights growth on your face and take exception to the CA giving you grief about it?! That is the point of my bringing this up.

As to the FA's having beards or chin music, who cares they are not pilots. If they come into the C/P while we step out to go our business and a sudden loss of pressure occurs it their problem not ours.

There are plenty of pilots here who are not in the best of shape, men and women, young and old, so that can't be isolated to the CAs.

Al Czervik
07-15-2018, 07:32 PM
Im a new hire and I havent seen unshaven FOís but I do see a lot of sloppy CPTís in black tennis shoes...............

450knotOffice
07-15-2018, 08:25 PM
While I personally could not care less if a pilot has some stubble, the fact that itís written company policy to be clean shaven means that a new hire (or any probationary pilot) should probably not push it and be offended if a captain calls them out on it. Whatís more important? Keeping yourself out of trouble and keeping your job, or being butthurt because some captain dared call you out for not shaving, as required?

Suck it up and play along. After probation, if you want to fight it, go right ahead.

Quarryman
07-16-2018, 04:10 AM
Congrats you are correct that it was not written correctly. The point still remains the same though. You come to work with a day or nights growth on your face and take exception to the CA giving you grief about it?! That is the point of my bringing this up.

As to the FA's having beards or chin music, who cares they are not pilots. If they come into the C/P while we step out to go our business and a sudden loss of pressure occurs it their problem not ours.

There are plenty of pilots here who are not in the best of shape, men and women, young and old, so that can't be isolated to the CAs.

If you're referring to the oxygen mask not sealing around the face that's bunk. Plenty of bearded pilots around to be world. I'm sure their masks fit just fine.

awax
07-16-2018, 04:32 AM
Some people donít think that how it be, but it do.


So, if they donít show up unshaven, theyíre showing up ______________?

Mover
07-16-2018, 08:04 AM
As I understand it there is a new hire/flow thru FB page. Which is a good thing so that they can pass along nice to know things about AA and how to navigate the antiquated DECS program, and probably answer some contract stuff.


There has been some discussion about the fact that some dont show up for work unshaven. The CA calls them on it and they are ****ed because of it?! Really, you are ****ed because, the CA asks why you are not shaved when coming to work in a uniform that represents our profession?



How do you know?

MarineGrunt
07-16-2018, 08:57 AM
Iíll shave because FM1 says shave. But we have male flight attendants that donít shave, wear makeup and have earrings. We have a CEO and management team that rarely wear ties.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well, we also have male pilots who wear makeup and earrings (to include womenís pilot uniform).....

jdflyer1999
07-16-2018, 09:10 AM
Itís not that hard to look the part. Pressed pants and shirt at the dry cleaners $4.50. Shoe polish at the airport is $5-7. Thatís about one trip to Starbucks. At $88.28/hr for a new hire thatís easily accomplished.

And yes I have shown up to work unshaven once. Met the captain, owned my appearance before he said anything and no problem. The reason was No water at the house due to water meter going bad. Had to bathe in the pool.

jcountry
07-16-2018, 09:33 AM
This is silly.

We get paid like professionals. Why the hell is it so hard to look like professionals?

Newsflash: We have a uniform. Wear it like a damned adult.
(And yes. Adults do actually groom themselves-shaving and the whole 9 yards.)

jdflyer1999
07-16-2018, 09:45 AM
This is silly.

We get paid like professionals. Why the hell is it so hard to look like professionals?

Newsflash: We have a uniform. Wear it like a damned adult.
(And yes. Adults do actually groom themselves-shaving and the whole 9 yards.)

Agreed. That fact that we are having to have this conversation isÖ worrisome

jcountry
07-16-2018, 10:06 AM
Agreed. That fact that we are having to have this conversation isÖ worrisome

Some ******* will show up with a man bun. And try to cause a stink because the company doesnít like it.

Just watch.

450knotOffice
07-16-2018, 10:41 AM
Some ******* will show up with a man bun. And try to cause a stink because the company doesnít like it.

Just watch.

lol!! Without a doubt this will happen.

jcountry
07-16-2018, 11:18 AM
lol!! Without a doubt this will happen.

It will..

And you never see older people pulling this BS.

Itís one of the results of raising a whole generation of Ďparticipation trophyí idiots.

Been told that they are ďspecial, special, little snowflakesĒ since they were still having their butts wiped by mommy.

Some will never become adults-no matter where they work or what they get paid. I have no idea what will happen when mommy is no longer able to feed their drama.

JetMonkey
07-16-2018, 11:30 AM
While we're at it, how bout the super relax dress code now for training. All these new hire class photos with some in flip-flops... seriously? I'm going through an R9 recurrent now and most guys I see are in jeans and tennis shoes. WTH? I guess I'm just old school now... it's way too casual for me.

rickair7777
07-16-2018, 11:39 AM
Im a new hire and I havent seen unshaven FOís but I do see a lot of sloppy CPTís in black tennis shoes.

The regionals are infested with un-shaven pilots lately, and the regionals are probably not in a position to be too hard-over on things like that these days. That naturally sets the bar, and when folks flow/hire to mainline they bring their expectations with them.

The question being, is mainline going to fire some probies over stuff like this? That has to start with CA's, are they willing to throw the flag on 1) standards and 2) attitude.

dfwcrj9
07-16-2018, 11:47 AM
y'all sound like a bunch of middle school girls gossiping and complaining.

Arado 234
07-16-2018, 12:35 PM
It’s not that hard to look the part. Pressed pants and shirt at the dry cleaners $4.50. Shoe polish in CLT is $5-7. That’s about one trip to Starbucks. At $88.28/hr for a new hire that’s easily accomplished.

And yes I have shown up to work unshaven once. Met the captain, owned my appearance before he said anything and no problem. The reason was No water at the house due to water meter going bad. Had to bathe in the pool.


Fixed it for you. I don't think there's a better shoe shine in the AA system than the one in CLT.

Aviatrx
07-16-2018, 01:04 PM
This thread makes it seem as though there is some epidemic amongst new hire/ flows. R-E-L-A-X . Some of you could use a little less starch in your uniform. I think some folks just need a little more guidance than others and that is part of a Captain and Chief pilots job. Clearly, this is not the place to create effective change. Also, LGA has a nice $5 shine

jcountry
07-16-2018, 02:37 PM
This thread makes it seem as though there is some epidemic amongst new hire/ flows. R-E-L-A-X . Some of you could use a little less starch in your uniform. I think some folks just need a little more guidance than others and that is part of a Captain and Chief pilots job. Clearly, this is not the place to create effective change. Also, LGA has a nice $5 shine


LIAR!

There is NOTHING nice about LGA.

NOTHING!!

Regionalsuck
07-16-2018, 03:09 PM
What about obese lard Captains wearing ill fitting uniforms with disgusting blubber hanging over their belt buckle, pants 3" too short or long, Walmart looking combat security guard shoes and an overgrown mustache that makes them look more like a Walrus than a Pilot.

Probie new hire pilots should probably report them as well :p

From what I have seen in the training center the ultra senior people that have been here forever are far more lax than the new hires.

Sunfish FAIP
07-16-2018, 03:19 PM
I canít believe someone tried to compare us to FAs. I get it some of them look like total slobs with long facial hair and dread locks but folks here is a nasty little wake up for you. Man the **** up! As proffesional pilots we are part of a proffesion. FAs have a job we have a career and proffesion to upkeep! Donít believe me? Simply take a look at what it takes to become a legacy pilot versus a FA? Itís called barries to entry for a reason!

I commuted up to work today sitting next to one of our FAs hired this year and I asked her how she got into this industry. Her response was that she was tired of having casual sex in exchange for a place to live and weed so she wanted to change her life!

When was the last time you came across a pilot who said they started flying because they were tired of casual sex in return for favors.

Some peopleís kids! I tell you what!

navigatro
07-16-2018, 03:48 PM
I can’t believe someone tried to compare us to FAs. I get it some of them look like total slobs with long facial hair and dread locks but folks here is a nasty little wake up for you. Man the **** up! As proffesional pilots we are part of a proffesion. FAs have a job we have a career and proffesion to upkeep! Don’t believe me? Simply take a look at what it takes to become a legacy pilot versus a FA? It’s called barries to entry for a reason!

I commuted up to work today sitting next to one of our FAs hired this year and I asked her how she got into this industry. Her response was that she was tired of having casual sex in exchange for a place to live and weed so she wanted to change her life!

When was the last time you came across a pilot who said they started flying because they were tired of casual sex in return for favors.

Some people’s kids! I tell you what!

I became a pilot because I wanted more casual sex in exchange for favors.

jcountry
07-16-2018, 04:45 PM
I became a pilot because I wanted more casual sex in exchange for favors.

Hahahaha!

Nice!

Name User
07-16-2018, 05:49 PM
I became a pilot because I wanted more casual sex in exchange for favors.

D3's don't ride for free....

Sunfish FAIP
07-16-2018, 06:43 PM
I became a pilot because I wanted more casual sex in exchange for favors.

Bow down to that comment!

Thatís caption of the week at APC

sherpster
07-16-2018, 07:08 PM
OP: you made up the new hires not shaving thing. One of those, my brothers uncles friends wife heard that blah, blah, blah. Made up story.

As for cpts not even wearing their wings or no belt or tennis shoes...well I have seen all of those things. With that said, those guys were actually pretty cool to fly with. If I see a cpt during the middle of summer with his hat and blazer on I now wonder ďwill he be a douch?Ē If I see new balance I know it will be a relaxed trip.

See that? Thread drift!

Knobcrk1
07-16-2018, 07:16 PM
As I understand it there is a new hire/flow thru FB page. Which is a good thing so that they can pass along nice to know things about AA and how to navigate the antiquated DECS program, and probably answer some contract stuff.


There has been some discussion about the fact that some dont show up for work unshaven. The CA calls them on it and they are ****ed because of it?! Really, you are ****ed because, the CA asks why you are not shaved when coming to work in a uniform that represents our profession?



I don't think it is that hard to show up in a clean uniform, clean shaven and have clean shoes/boots too?



Have some pride in what you do and how you look.

I like how you included the boots in there too as shoes.

Excargodog
07-16-2018, 07:18 PM
See that? Thread drift!


As long as we are thread drifting, there are worse things than not shaving. Ever jumpseat on a French airline. I don't mind them going without shaving but going without bathing for a week or two? And the cologne they use to cover it up is almost as bad...

NYC Pilot
07-16-2018, 07:38 PM
I canít believe someone tried to compare us to FAs. I get it some of them look like total slobs with long facial hair and dread locks but folks here is a nasty little wake up for you. Man the **** up! As proffesional pilots we are part of a proffesion. FAs have a job we have a career and proffesion to upkeep! Donít believe me? Simply take a look at what it takes to become a legacy pilot versus a FA? Itís called barries to entry for a reason!

I commuted up to work today sitting next to one of our FAs hired this year and I asked her how she got into this industry. Her response was that she was tired of having casual sex in exchange for a place to live and weed so she wanted to change her life!

When was the last time you came across a pilot who said they started flying because they were tired of casual sex in return for favors.

Some peopleís kids! I tell you what!

Its profession NOT proffesion, just sayin :)

fadec
07-16-2018, 09:04 PM
Some black guys have unhygienic and painful skin problems when they shave every day. White guys are extra susceptible to skin cancer as more skin is exposed to the sun. Asians often have nothing to shave. As diverse as we all are, shaving is unnatural and dangerous for all of us.

Excargodog
07-16-2018, 10:22 PM
I commuted up to work today sitting next to one of our FAs hired this year and I asked her how she got into this industry. Her response was that she was tired of having casual sex in exchange for a place to live and weed so she wanted to change her life!

When was the last time you came across a pilot who said they started flying because they were tired of casual sex in return for favors.



ca∑su∑al
ˈkaZHo͞oəl/Submit
adjective
1.
relaxed and unconcerned.

Casual sex is not done in exchange for goods or services. There is another name for pay-for-play sex, and it isn't 'casual'.

badflaps
07-16-2018, 10:44 PM
As long as we are thread drifting, there are worse things than not shaving. Ever jumpseat on a French airline. I don't mind them going without shaving but going without bathing for a week or two? And the cologne they use to cover it up is almost as bad...

Soap is like Krypton to the French.:eek:

Geardownflaps30
07-16-2018, 11:34 PM
Itís not that hard to look the part. Pressed pants and shirt at the dry cleaners $4.50. Shoe polish at the airport is $5-7. Thatís about one trip to Starbucks. At $88.28/hr for a new hire thatís easily accomplished.

And yes I have shown up to work unshaven once. Met the captain, owned my appearance before he said anything and no problem. The reason was No water at the house due to water meter going bad. Had to bathe in the pool.

Where I live, itís $10.18 total for 1 pant and one shirt, heavy starch on the shirt.

Gooselives
07-17-2018, 02:41 AM
While we're at it, how bout the super relax dress code now for training. All these new hire class photos with some in flip-flops... seriously? I'm going through an R9 recurrent now and most guys I see are in jeans and tennis shoes. WTH? I guess I'm just old school now... it's way too casual for me.

You guys are hiring them...you get what you pick!

sherpster
07-17-2018, 02:56 AM
Some black guys have unhygienic and painful skin problems when they shave every day. White guys are extra susceptible to skin cancer as more skin is exposed to the sun. Asians often have nothing to shave. As diverse as we all are, shaving is unnatural and dangerous for all of us.

So basically the company hates black people! Those racist bastards!

captjns
07-17-2018, 02:58 AM
Officer Dufus... Fashion Police Squad reporting for duty!


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRp88C5jm9HQZJd2-BmUWB5Dr-n36qlpxZzkj974R63-Uu8Ck

PowderFinger
07-17-2018, 04:43 AM
Grooming is important and should be stressed to all of those in the junior ranks ... I expect all F/Os to be clean shaved ... Especially the female F/Os.

Route66
07-17-2018, 05:32 AM
Iíll shave because FM1 says shave. But we have male flight attendants that donít shave, wear makeup and have earrings. We have a CEO and management team that rarely wear ties.

A well trimmed beard and no tie would look much better than a tie with a short sleeved shirt. All Iím missing is my AA pocket protector.

Many European/ME and ANZAC carriers wear beards/goatees. They look a helluva lot more professional than most US flight crews.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your ďimplicit biasĒ is showing. Havenít gone to elevate class I see.

Name User
07-17-2018, 06:45 AM
Its profession NOT proffesion, just sayin :)

It's "It's" not Its.

Just sayin'.

sherpster
07-17-2018, 08:22 AM
Grooming is important and should be stressed to all of those in the junior ranks ... I expect all F/Os to be clean shaved ... Especially the female F/Os.

Best post ever.

Cheddar
07-17-2018, 10:21 AM
Some black guys have unhygienic and painful skin problems when they shave every day. White guys are extra susceptible to skin cancer as more skin is exposed to the sun. Asians often have nothing to shave. As diverse as we all are, shaving is unnatural and dangerous for all of us.



^^^^^^^^^^!!!!!!! The company needs to pay me a shaving allowance!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheddar
07-17-2018, 10:26 AM
Your ďimplicit biasĒ is showing. Havenít gone to elevate class I see.



Nope. Obviously you misunderstood me and my gender. I identify as Ďnon-gender.í I will no longer be constrained by YOUR implicit bias!

How dare anyone tell me I have to wear a tie and ASSume Iím a man!

How dare anyone tell me I have to shave and ASSume Iím a man! Would you tell someone that I identifies as a woman that zhe must shave zher face?!?

Unbelievable...

tomgoodman
07-17-2018, 12:31 PM
I refuse to trim my mustache, because I identify as a walrus. :D

badflaps
07-17-2018, 12:47 PM
My wife said "Why don't you grow a mustache." I said "Jeez! Why do we always have to do everything together."

jcountry
07-17-2018, 01:03 PM
Some black guys have unhygienic and painful skin problems when they shave every day. White guys are extra susceptible to skin cancer as more skin is exposed to the sun. Asians often have nothing to shave. As diverse as we all are, shaving is unnatural and dangerous for all of us.

Weak.

An oxygen mask has the label ďbeards will not sealĒ for a reason.

Thatís a lot more important that whatever pimple stuff u are referring to

Name User
07-17-2018, 01:10 PM
So this was probably a truthful post but literally about one dude out of 600+ hired this year.

In other words I really don't see how it's such an issue that deserves six pages of people *****ing and piling on about.

at6d
07-17-2018, 01:58 PM
Wind check?

jcountry
07-17-2018, 02:13 PM
So this was probably a truthful post but literally about one dude out of 600+ hired this year.

In other words I really don't see how it's such an issue that deserves six pages of people *****ing and piling on about.

It's the internet....

That's exactly what Owl Gore invented it for.

Regionalsuck
07-17-2018, 02:19 PM
While we're at it, how bout the super relax dress code now for training. All these new hire class photos with some in flip-flops... seriously? I'm going through an R9 recurrent now and most guys I see are in jeans and tennis shoes. WTH? I guess I'm just old school now... it's way too casual for me.

Just to be clear, those new hire pics with people in flip flops are headed to the casual APA dinner in the evening after class. Seems like lots of people just wear whatever to that in every class lately since they said to do that. Those pictures are not any training event or at the AA schoolhouse for classes, or the AA dinner.

The actual class photos will show virtually everyone in dress clothes. Or at least long pants, shirt and actual shoes for some of the PSA pilots. :p.

Sliceback
07-17-2018, 03:52 PM
Fixed it for you. I don't think there's a better shoe shine in the AA system than the one in CLT.

S. America. Sao Paulo. Rio. They meet you at the pickup spot.

It's a big world out there.

jcountry
07-17-2018, 04:07 PM
Just to be clear, those new hire pics with people in flip flops are headed to the casual APA dinner in the evening after class. Seems like lots of people just wear whatever to that in every class lately since they said to do that. Those pictures are not any training event or at the AA schoolhouse for classes, or the AA dinner.

The actual class photos will show virtually everyone in dress clothes. Or at least long pants, shirt and actual shoes for some of the PSA pilots. :p.

Not really.

Our class had a couple of Hawaiian shirt/flip-flop guys at the formal dinner.

And they werenít even young.

I do think the instructions stated something about ďbusiness casual,Ē and all but two happily followed instructions.

A330FoodCritic
07-17-2018, 04:33 PM
And then there was the express pilot in first, in flip flops.

NYC Pilot
07-17-2018, 05:08 PM
It's "It's" not Its.

Just sayin'.

Yes, you are correct. Lol, point noted. :D

uavking
07-17-2018, 06:15 PM
And then there was the express pilot in first, in flip flops.

It's not about "express" or mainline. I guarantee that some young buck zoomie or squid would do the same. That's what happens when the company gets rid of an actual nonrev dress code and says "do what's right" to a generation that's casual to begin with.

A330FoodCritic
07-17-2018, 06:28 PM
It's not about "express" or mainline. I guarantee that some young buck zoomie or squid would do the same. That's what happens when the company gets rid of an actual nonrev dress code and says "do what's right" to a generation that's casual to begin with.

That's how my buddy described him, didn't mean to single out express guys, every groups has their individuals.

I could not imagine wearing flip flops on a plane, but that's just me.

TransWorld
07-17-2018, 07:33 PM
S. America. Sao Paulo. Rio. They meet you at the pickup spot.

It's a big world out there.

Almost as good for shoe shine is MEX. In the domestic waiting area there is a great shoe shine stand. They are perfectionists. 45 minutes for a shine. $1.

Arado 234
07-17-2018, 09:39 PM
As long as we are thread drifting, there are worse things than not shaving. Ever jumpseat on a French airline. I don't mind them going without shaving but going without bathing for a week or two? And the cologne they use to cover it up is almost as bad...

Are we starting with francophobia again?

How do you know someone didn’t bath for a week or two? How can you jumpseat on a French or any foreign airline? Your xenophobia doesn’t sound very professional either. I guess your FŁhrer is calling!

What’s next? Gonna complain about all the rapists and drug dealers?

Arado 234
07-17-2018, 09:45 PM
Soap is like Krypton to the French.:eek:

Another candidate for the moron award. You got the balls to tell that to our French crew members too or are you just an internet tough guy?

Arado 234
07-17-2018, 09:51 PM
...

It's a big world out there.

I guess some guys need to stick to their regional flying with all the prejudice clouding their view....

Sad.

And unprofessional.

Cheddar
07-18-2018, 04:07 AM
Whoa... I totes misread the chi in this thread. Sometimes you have to loosen your man bun brah...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

send a check
07-18-2018, 04:28 AM
Are we starting with francophobia again?

How do you know someone didnít bath for a week or two? How can you jumpseat on a French or any foreign airline? Your xenophobia doesnít sound very professional either. I guess your FŁhrer is calling!

Whatís next? Gonna complain about all the rapists and drug dealers?

Your avatar is Arado 234. You might want to check your Third Reich identity bashing.
The Fuhrer needs his planes back to cover a bridge at Remagen.

Arado 234
07-18-2018, 05:10 AM
Your avatar is Arado 234. You might want to check your Third Reich identity bashing.
The Fuhrer needs his planes back to cover a bridge at Remagen.

What do you know about the reason/significance of my user name? Who's being a "user name" nazi here?

Hint: Not me!

Who posted derogative comments here? And now you accuse me of checking my "identity"? Can't be more hypocrite than that!

Kinda (not) funny, how on one hand someone is expected to have a thicker skin, while on the other hand the same person or group is being so sensitive when you throw garbage back at them.

Route66
07-18-2018, 05:37 AM
Youíre on a public forum. Grow a pair.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 05:49 AM
And then there was the express pilot in first, in flip flops.

I bet $10 his baseball cap is on sideways/backwards.

(Mommy told him all the cool kids do that these days.)

nAAtive
07-18-2018, 06:08 AM
Where did people see Nazi stuff ? Iím confused.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 06:13 AM
Where did people see Nazi stuff ? Iím confused.

Itís a Nazi bomber.

The guy probably just thought it was a cool plane and used it as his screen name.

I think certain German planes were really cool. Doesnít make me a Nazi either

nAAtive
07-18-2018, 06:22 AM
Itís a Nazi bomber.

The guy probably just thought it was a cool plane and used it as his screen name.

I think certain German planes were really cool. Doesnít make me a Nazi either
No not the screen name. In peoples responses.

Excargodog
07-18-2018, 07:16 AM
Are we starting with francophobia again?

How do you know someone didnít bath for a week or two? How can you jumpseat on a French or any foreign airline? Your xenophobia doesnít sound very professional either. I guess your FŁhrer is calling!

Whatís next? Gonna complain about all the rapists and drug dealers?

A previous career in the USAF where I lived in Germany and travelled occasionally on foreign carriers. They invited me up front to show me their new Airbus toy, aviator to aviator. They did that back pre 911.

And you do realize that 'xenophobia' means 'fear of the stranger' don't you? Nobody has been afraid of the French since the time of Napolean. Not even the Haitians.

Regionalsuck
07-18-2018, 07:36 AM
Not really.

Our class had a couple of Hawaiian shirt/flip-flop guys at the formal dinner.

And they werenít even young.

I do think the instructions stated something about ďbusiness casual,Ē and all but two happily followed instructions.

Well they are just stupid and canít follow directions then I guess. Only one in my class didnít dress formal. Probably felt like an idiot taking pictures when everyone else was. Oh well good for him.

MantisToboggan
07-18-2018, 08:27 AM
Man, all this bashing of young folk/millennials/regional pilots, but more puerile behavior here than on their forums. Reality check, who gave out those participation trophies? Were kids giving them to each other in this alternate reality you've created where these trophies even exist? Or is your generation just terrible at raising kids to be functioning adults?

Man, it's easy to put down an entire generation. Maybe that's why your parents thought you were so terrible when you started listening to The Beetles. Time to retire

dawgdriver
07-18-2018, 08:52 AM
Me fail English? Thatís umpossible

Ignert.......

send a check
07-18-2018, 10:36 AM
What do you know about the reason/significance of my user name? Who's being a "user name" nazi here?

Hint: Not me!

Who posted derogative comments here? And now you accuse me of checking my "identity"? Can't be more hypocrite than that!

Kinda (not) funny, how on one hand someone is expected to have a thicker skin, while on the other hand the same person or group is being so sensitive when you throw garbage back at them.

I guess you have some history with the Francophobe?? I must have wandered into some kind of love affair gone wrong. All that rage you have is for someone else. If you want to bring up Hitler on the one hand and have a plane with a Swastika on it, then you just go right ahead.

My mom was in Rotterdam during the war. Just yesterday we were looking at pictures of the May 14, 1940 bombing that killed 35,000. She remembers the HE-111ís coming in low and leveling the neighborhood behind herís.

But yeah go ahead and just throw around the Fuhrerís name. Itís cool!!!

I love the Do-335, the ME-109G, FW-190, TA-152, He-219, He 177 (fire prone junk wagon but cool looking), and the BV-238. 6 engines of sea going madness. How about the ME-323, FW 200C, He-290. I could do this all day.

Regionalsuck
07-18-2018, 11:02 AM
And then there was the express pilot in first, in flip flops.

What is wrong with that and why does it matter? He is following the rules the COMPANY provided if he is just a non-rev and not on A-pass/Company business. AA isn't the military and I would do the same on my own personal time, just like I do every time we buy business class tickets to go on vacation. I don't EVER wear shoes other than work required dress shoes that only get worn for company business or formal events. Some people despise wearing shoes or shaving on time off the clock unless absolutely necessary for some reason, and they don't give a crap if others approve of their relaxed beach wear lifestyle or not. ;)

"Being comfortable in flight extends to the clothes we wear. American doesn’t have a prescribed dress code for our non-revenue guests. So, as long as your clothing is neat and clean and doesn’t offend or distract, you’re good to fly in any class (including premium cabins).

When in doubt, ask yourself, “Do I blend in with customers?” If so, you’re probably set".

Have you seen the first class customers this century? One Piece Pajamas and oversized Mr-T Gold chains with furry bunny slippers to Professionals in Business Suits and EVERYTHING in between. Some of them are barefoot hippies with backpacks and have emotional support Turtles with custom painted neon glow in the dark shells. Flip Flops are well within the spectrum we get. I sat next to Samuel Jackson on AA in First one day when he was wearing his Addidas Flip flops and goofy hat. Maybe I should've pulled out my company badge, then kicked him off screaming there is no mother fricken flip flops on this mother fricken plane! :D

PRS Guitars
07-18-2018, 12:50 PM
Man, all this bashing of young folk/millennials/regional pilots, but more puerile behavior here than on their forums. Reality check, who gave out those participation trophies? Were kids giving them to each other in this alternate reality you've created where these trophies even exist? Or is your generation just terrible at raising kids to be functioning adults?


Youíre exactly right...Helicopter parenting by boomers and even Gen Xers, the self esteem movement, and demasculinization of boys have created this problem.

FlyyGuyy
07-18-2018, 12:53 PM
Youíre exactly right...Helicopter parenting by boomers and even Gen Xers, the self esteem movement, and demasculinization of boys have created this problem.

This times 1000.

I'm a millennial, but my parents didn't subscribe to the nonsense that others did. I can see the difference in my peers.

50SeatsofGrey
07-18-2018, 01:17 PM
What do you expect when you have virtually zero selection process for flows? Do you know how easy it is to get hired at envoy/psa/Piedmont? It's pathetic. Half of the seniority list will be made up of these guys in 10 years. It won't be pretty. You will definitely be able to see a difference between AA and DL/UA/SW where you actually have to earn it.

PRS Guitars
07-18-2018, 02:03 PM
What do you expect when you have virtually zero selection process for flows? Do you know how easy it is to get hired at envoy/psa/Piedmont? It's pathetic. Half of the seniority list will be made up of these guys in 10 years. It won't be pretty. You will definitely be able to see a difference between AA and DL/UA/SW where you actually have to earn it.

Waiting with popcorn in hand for responses to this:cool:

RyanP
07-18-2018, 02:34 PM
What do you expect when you have virtually zero selection process for flows? Do you know how easy it is to get hired at envoy/psa/Piedmont? It's pathetic. Half of the seniority list will be made up of these guys in 10 years. It won't be pretty. You will definitely be able to see a difference between AA and DL/UA/SW where you actually have to earn it.

How hard was it for you to get hired at Air Wisconsin (according to your posts)? Did you really earn that one? Apparantly you're just another regional pilot from a different brand, so what makes you any less pathetic?

Personally, I felt pretty competitive and qualified when I "flowed" to AA over some unknown quantity street hire. Nobody gave me anything I didn't work for just as much as anyone else off the street. 5 type ratings, Check Airman, zero failures, volunteer time, years of 121 CA experience flying AA owned equipment and systems. Was hired initially as a lowly regional pilot with around 1500TT, 600 Multi, CFI,II,MEI, ATP. 3.9ish GPA. Have been a Captain on 3 different fleets. What more do you have to do to "earn" it these days?

I agree the Regional standards of hiring now are lower (across the board, certainly not just at Envoy/PSA/Piedmont) but nobody is flowing without making it though many years of check rides, 121 experience building and countless useful lessons learned along the way anyway. Flows in the future very shortly at Envoy won't be able to flow with any letters in their file, attendance or disciplinary issues etc which is a good thing for AA. Not sure about PSA and PDT. It's like a 6-10 year job interview you have to get through before you get here vs random off the street unknowns that AA has no inside knowledge of their history. AA can't ask previous employers of some random carrier the type of questions (that really need to be asked) about an employee being a good/bad employee because it's illegal. All they can do legally is verify dates of employment, position titles and PRIA records. AA can and does have the ability to see (everything) about a wholly owned pilots employment history though.

Military fighter guys with zero 121 experience, that have never even done this kind of flying are scooped up by AA with virtually no questions asked as fast as they can get them. Are they better suited for the job, did they earn it more? Highly debatable topic right there depending on which side of the fence you came from. Or how about a 10+yr regional pilot who does this same 121 job for years day in day out? Both put in the effort to get here in their own ways. It is what it is.

50SeatsofGrey
07-18-2018, 03:26 PM
How hard was it for you to get hired at Air Wisconsin (according to your posts)? Did you really earn that one? Apparantly you're just another regional pilot from a different brand, so what makes you any less pathetic?

Personally, I felt pretty competitive and qualified when I "flowed" to AA over some unknown quantity street hire. Nobody gave me anything I didn't earn just as much as anyone else off the street. 5 type ratings, Check Airman, zero failures, volunteer time, years of 121 CA experience flying AA owned equipment and systems. Was hired initially as a lowly regional pilot with around 1500TT, 600 Multi, CFI,II,MEI, ATP. 3.9ish GPA. Have been a Captain on 3 different fleets. What more do you have to do to "earn" it?

I agree the standards of hiring now are lower but nobody is flowing without making it though many years of check rides and 121 experience building. Flows in the future very shortly here won't be able to flow with any letters in their file, attendance/disciplinary issues etc which is a good thing. It's like a 6-10 year job interview you have to get through before you get here vs random off the street unknowns that AA has no inside knowledge of their history.

Military fighter guys with zero 121 experience, that have never even done this kind of flying are scooped up by AA with virtually no questions asked as fast as they can get them. Are they better suited for the job, did they earn it more? Or a 10+yr regional pilot who does this same job for years? Both put in the effort to get here in their own ways. It is what it is.

Settle down. My regional is no better than anyone else's, nor am I claiming to be better than anyone else. It's incredibly easy to get hired anywhere right now. A regional interview is incredibly easier than an actual AA interview.

I'm sure you're really sharp, but I really do believe that you should have to interview to advance to the next phase of the career. Not just be in the right place at the right time and throw an app in at a regional with the quickest flow. There are check airman at regionals with no flow who would be junior (if they are ever hired) to kids who entered the career way after them. By your own logic that experience alone is sufficient, these people who have been in the career longer deserve it more than some of the flows.

We're all regional pilots who have to take checkrides every year and try to stay out of trouble. That is literally the one thing that everyone has in common, it doesn't set you apart. Claiming that working for a regional is a 10 year interview is simply preposterous.

MantisToboggan
07-19-2018, 06:55 AM
Settle down. My regional is no better than anyone else's, nor am I claiming to be better than anyone else. It's incredibly easy to get hired anywhere right now. A regional interview is incredibly easier than an actual AA interview.

I'm sure you're really sharp, but I really do believe that you should have to interview to advance to the next phase of the career. Not just be in the right place at the right time and throw an app in at a regional with the quickest flow. There are check airman at regionals with no flow who would be junior (if they are ever hired) to kids who entered the career way after them. By your own logic that experience alone is sufficient, these people who have been in the career longer deserve it more than some of the flows.

We're all regional pilots who have to take checkrides every year and try to stay out of trouble. That is literally the one thing that everyone has in common, it doesn't set you apart. Claiming that working for a regional is a 10 year interview is simply preposterous.

You talk about "right place, right time" getting hired at a regional with flow and that leading to a career at AA. You know these opportunities exists, yet you choose another option that you yourself admit could put you at a disadvantage. That is a decision you consciously made. Nothing about that fits the description of "right place right time"

RyanP
07-19-2018, 07:38 AM
Settle down. My regional is no better than anyone else's, nor am I claiming to be better than anyone else. It's incredibly easy to get hired anywhere right now. A regional interview is incredibly easier than an actual AA interview.

I'm sure you're really sharp, but I really do believe that you should have to interview to advance to the next phase of the career. Not just be in the right place at the right time and throw an app in at a regional with the quickest flow. There are check airman at regionals with no flow who would be junior (if they are ever hired) to kids who entered the career way after them. By your own logic that experience alone is sufficient, these people who have been in the career longer deserve it more than some of the flows.

We're all regional pilots who have to take checkrides every year and try to stay out of trouble. That is literally the one thing that everyone has in common, it doesn't set you apart. Claiming that working for a regional is a 10 year interview is simply preposterous.

Sarcasm. Of course Envoy or the other wholly owned are no better quality than Air Wisconsin. They all have their good and less than ideal employee's, same as AA does. Which a Skype interview and HR memorized question/answer fest likely won't be the determining factor to weed them out either. People now are choosing to go to the places with flow as a back up plan since street hiring is so biased and skewed toward certain HR things that pilots can't change or because of Military boxes they can't check.

I just get annoyed when people claim flows are just handed the job and imply they aren't qualified because they didn't interview at AA. What have they been doing for the past decade or so???? What are the future to be flows doing every day at work???? They are flying passengers for AA to AA destinations in AA hubs on AA owned aircraft under AA colors, in the same AA uniforms, using AA computer systems, on AA benefits, getting beat up by AA management decisions and still sticking it out though thick and thin with years of lousy paychecks, (from AA payroll). Seems like a good enough job interview to me if you get through all the years of that without any incidents or problems. Not sure how a formal "interview" is ever going to be better than that. Do good candidates working elsewhere not get an opportunity now because they aren't a flow? Absolutely, but like it or not, it is what it is now. The new game in town has been known for a while now. Many of us stuck it out for years longer than we wanted, and never moved over to the LCC route for that very reason. The days of 1000 TPIC being a sure way in are certainly OVER. That is how it was, but it changed after many of us started and we've had to adapt to the new (less than ideal) realities of current hiring practices at the big 3.

Surely working under the Parent company you want to fly for in the future has to be a better judge of a future pilot vs a video interview you could do in your underwear with a suit Jacket on. A video interview that 99% of highly qualified male civilians applying for years can't even get anyway. Despite a great resume and stacks of internal recs. If you can't get past the gatekeepers unknown HR metrics, you can't even get an interview to even get a shot. If interviews were based on just qualifications and extracurriculars many of us would've been given a shot a long time ago.

Most of us that have flowed could throw our resume in a blind stack with age/gender/race/company removed and they would likely rank out extremely competitive amongst anyone out there who is actually hired off the street these days. So could many other Regional pilots but of course it doesn't work that way in the HR controlled world we live in. I could make an educated guess that the flows on average actually have much more flight experience than the average off the street hire lately. I'd feel pretty confident putting money on that bet seeing the last few years hiring stats.

A video interview and a bunch of pointless regurgitated tell me about a time HR concieved questions that are pre practiced by candidates with memorized answers coached by (insert various interview prep company name here). Plus a test that anyone already in this line of work with half a brain can easily get past is about as useful to judge applicants as picking randomly from a hat full of qualified applicants. IMO. Just another hoop to jump through, as if we haven't jumped through enough already. It's about as useful as a company doing a sim eval for people with prior and current 121 type ratings. Why waste the money, clearly they can do it already. At a regional? Sure go for it, at a Major if you have the experience anyway to even be there? Why waste the time? Those are outdated processes that need to be changed entirely. Which is part of what they are doing now by advancement from within instead. It gives them a steady pool of Regional pilots coming in and a known quantity pool to draw from to fill the AA seats. I would personally tighten up the hiring standards at the regional levels EVERYWHERE if it was up to me, but the airlines don't care what I think. #MeatintheSeat.:rolleyes:

Cheddar
07-19-2018, 09:03 AM
RyanP -

Iím going to preface this ďfactĒ by saying most flows Iíve met are great. I for one think we should continue a feeder process as well as hire OTS 121 pilots as well as Mil OTS because we need diversity of thought when it comes to breaking the mold of ďweíve always done that here.Ē

Ok, so I know for a fact that for the first 18 months of the hiring at AA (starting Jan 2014 for OTS with Envoy flows) a disproportionate number of flows to OTS required more sim/training time. That may not be surprising to some, but the fact that those percentages stayed the same with OE is surprising as ďtheyíve already been in the SAME system.Ē While the percentages dropped some, there is still a bias toward OTS hires needing fewer ďextraĒ training events and OE than flows. I havenít been privy to that data for 2017 to now, but that was shocking to me.

All that being said, in my class (mid 2014) I donít know of any flows requiring extra training, and I would enjoy flying with every one of them.

Where most of us (that may slightly even dare to) question the process is with the folks getting hired TODAY, not those that have ďdone itĒ for 10 years precisely because the standards HAVE lowered to get on with our WO.

I remember my ASA interview in 2005 as by far being the most demanding job interview ever (I was shocked to get an offer) and how competitive it was in the early 00ís to get a job. Itís 180 degrees different now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Name User
07-19-2018, 09:27 AM
RyanP -

I’m going to preface this “fact” by saying most flows I’ve met are great. I for one think we should continue a feeder process as well as hire OTS 121 pilots as well as Mil OTS because we need diversity of thought when it comes to breaking the mold of “we’ve always done that here.”

Ok, so I know for a fact that for the first 18 months of the hiring at AA (starting Jan 2014 for OTS with Envoy flows) a disproportionate number of flows to OTS required more sim/training time. That may not be surprising to some, but the fact that those percentages stayed the same with OE is surprising as “they’ve already been in the SAME system.” While the percentages dropped some, there is still a bias toward OTS hires needing fewer “extra” training events and OE than flows. I haven’t been privy to that data for 2017 to now, but that was shocking to me.

All that being said, in my class (mid 2014) I don’t know of any flows requiring extra training, and I would enjoy flying with every one of them.

Where most of us (that may slightly even dare to) question the process is with the folks getting hired TODAY, not those that have “done it” for 10 years precisely because the standards HAVE lowered to get on with our WO.

I remember my ASA interview in 2005 as by far being the most demanding job interview ever (I was shocked to get an offer) and how competitive it was in the early 00’s to get a job. It’s 180 degrees different now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah up until mid 2010's Eagle was a very competitive interview. Also aside from that the guys I sat with up front were damn fine professionals.

PSA? Total joke of an airline. Sorry but it's true. Some good guys but that place has always had serious issues with talent. I do weep for our future with those people flowing.

Expressjet did have a pretty good exodus to PSA and those folks upped the quality of the ranks quite a bit.

Piedmont guys were pretty good except for the top few % who were weirdos. Some ended up at US/AA and had serious issues. But that's what you get when you fly props for 25 years and can't move on to greener pastures.

IMO it's not passing the interview at a major that is difficult if you are a normal person, it's actually just getting that invite that makes it so hard. Like you, my regional interview was significantly harder than the ones I had at the major level.

IMO if you fail a check ride or require extra training at the regional level you should not automatically flow. You should have to interview, and then look at past records to see if it's a trend or not. If you require extra OE for FO and CA rides you're done, sorry.

MantisToboggan
07-19-2018, 09:47 AM
Yeah up until mid 2010's Eagle was a very competitive interview. Also aside from that the guys I sat with up front were damn fine professionals.

PSA? Total joke of an airline. Sorry but it's true. Some good guys but that place has always had serious issues with talent. I do weep for our future with those people flowing.

Expressjet did have a pretty good exodus to PSA and those folks upped the quality of the ranks quite a bit.

Piedmont guys were pretty good except for the top few % who were weirdos. Some ended up at US/AA and had serious issues. But that's what you get when you fly props for 25 years and can't move on to greener pastures.

IMO it's not passing the interview at a major that is difficult if you are a normal person, it's actually just getting that invite that makes it so hard. Like you, my regional interview was significantly harder than the ones I had at the major level.

IMO if you fail a check ride or require extra training at the regional level you should not automatically flow. You should have to interview, and then look at past records to see if it's a trend or not. If you require extra OE for FO and CA rides you're done, sorry.

Agree with the first group of PDT guys to flow. Those old timers who flew props for 20 years can't get their head around the FMS and that is scary.

I've never heard anyone propose the checkride failure requiring some additional scrutiny. I like it as long as they'd be given a chance to explain it/ are still given a fair shot as I've seen some good pilots bust rides.

RyanP
07-19-2018, 02:25 PM
RyanP -

I’m going to preface this “fact” by saying most flows I’ve met are great. I for one think we should continue a feeder process as well as hire OTS 121 pilots as well as Mil OTS because we need diversity of thought when it comes to breaking the mold of “we’ve always done that here.”

Ok, so I know for a fact that for the first 18 months of the hiring at AA (starting Jan 2014 for OTS with Envoy flows) a disproportionate number of flows to OTS required more sim/training time. That may not be surprising to some, but the fact that those percentages stayed the same with OE is surprising as “they’ve already been in the SAME system.” While the percentages dropped some, there is still a bias toward OTS hires needing fewer “extra” training events and OE than flows. I haven’t been privy to that data for 2017 to now, but that was shocking to me.



No argument from me in that area. As a former check airman I know exactly the group of ultra senior Ex Eagle lifers with 20+ years in the left seat and were never really FO's you are referring too. Most of them were well over 50-55 years old. They had problems at Eagle, likely have problems still at AA. Eagle can't get rid of them due to union protections. I hear some of them didn't make it through training which is probably good for everyone involved knowing some of the history. There was some real problem people in that early group everyone was well aware of. A bunch of them flew turboprops in the islands FOREVER and never adapted to the program when transitioning to Jets on the mainland, or they were just so old and set in their ways you couldn't change it. The type of people that probably made their kids and family call them CAPTAIN at home. We literally had people flowing that were 64 years old initially. :rolleyes: No doubt some characters from that group gave everyone a bad rap.

That ultra senior group is long passed and I would assume 98% of everyone in the current year is doing very well. Same as they did at Eagle. 35-45 yr old non Regional lifers with a lot of experience but not crotchety and set in their ways or TOO good to be an FO again. Of course there is always an outlier here and there but Nobody had any issues in my class that I know of.

From my personal experience training, the military pilots almost always needed more time. In the sim and on IOE. Not all of them, helo is by far the worst, but it was definitely a noticeable thing amongst all check airman that they struggle with the change. Book smarts and study habits from that group were typically better than average but the flying was very weak from a large percentage. I get it's different but I was surprised coming from the equipment some of them previously flew having such a hard time with basic easy things I would expect any instrument rated pilot to be able to handle. Of course you get the ones that do great as well, I just saw more from that group of new hires than any other. Well, I take that back, the 50-55+ age group was by far the slowest to learn and adapt to new things.

My experience with teaching new hires to fly a new type:

Prior 121 = Stellar, weak ones are outliers and rare. If I got my pick of students it would be age 27-45, prior 121 transitions 100% of the time. They are so much easier.

Prior Military only= Anywhere from Ok to weak, really was about 50/50, they almost always get it, but it can definitely take longer about half the time. Not saying they are crap pilots, just that 121 is a big change. After 4-6 months they blend in with everyone else and do great for the most part.

Age 55+ = Disaster show usually with many headaches and frustrations along the way. Rare to get a strong one out of the gate, but Rockstars do exist, before any old people get all upset. lol. I have had some 55+ guys that were fantastic. None of them were new hires though! I honestly can't think of a single off the street new hire (with no 121 experience) that age or older that has not struggled big time.

RyanP
07-19-2018, 03:07 PM
y.

I've never heard anyone propose the checkride failure requiring some additional scrutiny. I like it as long as they'd be given a chance to explain it/ are still given a fair shot as I've seen some good pilots bust rides.

I would agree with the extra scrutiny. Part 121 type rides we use to have, I can understand 1 failure over a career. Ok, people could have a bad day and those were SIGNIFICANTLY harder check rides, at least at Eagle they were. If you mess up one little thing or bust a limitation it's done. No do overs, no retraining. No train to proficiency. No leeway for the check airman. The check ride is just Done. You basically had to be spot on for 2 hours of crap thrown at you with no "help" from the other pilot.

Now, If people are busting AQP training that most companies use now then that is another story. IMO there is no excuses for failure in AQP. You can literally crash a maneuvers validation and still retrain and pass. It's asinine if you ask me but I didn't write the rules. You get 2 do-overs if you need them. The type ride is just a regular line flight with a small problem typically leading to a divert, which is handled as a CREW where the other pilot can and should help. Many times it is a check airman in the other seat, and he is REQUIRED to fix all the mistakes and help because it's a crew event. In the old 121 type ride days the check airman would be required to sit on his hands and keep his mouth shut when things were going to hell. Now he steps in and intervenes. The AQP type ride is literally a non event now for the majority. At least how our program was written. So in my opinion with seeing it firsthand daily, People that actually do bust with AQP have a pretty serious deficiency somewhere and they should get further scrutiny. The company and FAA give them additional scrutiny in special tracking programs, why shouldn't a new employer?

450knotOffice
07-19-2018, 10:12 PM
I flowed over mid 2013. I made it through 737 training in the normal allotted time. No extra events for me. Same with the Bus training nine months later. Not only that, but Iíve never had to repeat any phase of training in my entire 27 year airline career - through three Regional turboprops and two different Regional jets, through to the two jets Iíve flown at AA. Seven different airplanes.

And Iím no different than the vast majority of my peers who came from the original Eagle, now called Envoy (I was gone before then, thankfully. Hate that name).

Both programs at AA were excellent. Show up with a good attitude, a good work ethic to study and learn, and just about any professional pilot worthy of the label will do well.

RyanP, your responses have been eloquently presented. Thank you.

NYC Pilot
07-20-2018, 02:44 AM
American Eagle Airlines was a great regional with a great group of pilots. These people from other regionals claiming otherwise are just plain losers who work for crappy companies. Keep the flow, just make the hiring standards as they were circa 1999.

Erroneous
07-20-2018, 04:59 AM
Is the Eagle circle jerk over? Iím here for the gang bang!

Regionalsuck
07-20-2018, 06:19 AM
Keep the flow, just make the hiring standards as they were circa 1999.

For everyoneís sanity still in the training department I sure wish they would go back to the old standards!

Use to be a 2-3 day event. Stage 1 testing, people weeded out on the spot, next stage HR, people weeded out, Technical interview with line pilot, people weeded out, down to half what the group started with. Now sim eval in AA full motion sim, 727, Saab, whatever was available. Another chunk weeded out. Then half day astronaut physical at AA if you got that far. Then Captain review board. We started with a full room of people on day 1 and ended with like 5 or 6.

Now they hire anyone with an app basically and let the check airman/APDs sort it out because all managers care about is numbers. Which SUCKS dumping that mess on training. Huge waste of everyoneís time/money/sanity doing hiring that way. You could get people that havenít flown in 20 years or have zero instrument scan, and I mean ZERO. Which is always fun. 100 extra hours later. :rolleyes:

PRS Guitars
07-20-2018, 07:31 AM
From my personal experience training, the military pilots almost always needed more time. In the sim and on IOE. Not all of them, helo is by far the worst, but it was definitely a noticeable thing amongst all check airman that they struggle with the change. Book smarts and study habits from that group were typically better than average but the flying was very weak from a large percentage. I get it's different but I was surprised coming from the equipment some of them previously flew having such a hard time with basic easy things I would expect any instrument rated pilot to be able to handle. Of course you get the ones that do great as well, I just saw more from that group of new hires than any other. Well, I take that back, the 50-55+ age group was by far the slowest to learn and adapt to new things.

My experience with teaching new hires to fly a new type:

Prior 121 = Stellar, weak ones are outliers and rare. If I got my pick of students it would be age 27-45, prior 121 transitions 100% of the time. They are so much easier.

Prior Military only= Anywhere from Ok to weak, really was about 50/50, they almost always get it, but it can definitely take longer about half the time. Not saying they are crap pilots, just that 121 is a big change. After 4-6 months they blend in with everyone else and do great for the most part.


Not disputing you, but something you need to understand is that most military guys who go to a regional, do so because they havenít flown in years. They donít have good currency to get on with a major. So yeah, they might be rusty at some of the things youíre talking about. Most, not all current guys go straight to a major.

Also, I know for me, the training didnít talk about a lot of basic stuff that military guys donít deal with. Like ramp control, I had no idea about that, and other little things on the line. I remember my first EDCT on the line.

The CA said ďdo we have an EDCT?Ē

me ďWhatís that?Ē

CA ďwhat!, how the F have you gotten this far without knowing what an EDCT is?!Ē...then explained it.

Me ďwell, we didnít have those flying F16ís, we took off whenever the F we wantedĒ

DOGIII
07-20-2018, 11:55 AM
There are check airman at regionals with no flow who would be junior (if they are ever hired) to kids who entered the career way after them.



The legacies are also, on occasion, hiring 23-25 year olds with zero 121 pic time and/or little overall experience. These pilots hired through traditional interviews also end up more senior to those check airman that you speak of. Let's not pretend that the current interview philosophy at any of the legacies ensures that the most qualified pilot gets hired.

RyanP
07-20-2018, 01:24 PM
Not disputing you, but something you need to understand is that most military guys who go to a regional, do so because they haven’t flown in years. They don’t have good currency to get on with a major. So yeah, they might be rusty at some of the things you’re talking about. Most, not all current guys go straight to a major.

Also, I know for me, the training didn’t talk about a lot of basic stuff that military guys don’t deal with. Like ramp control, I had no idea about that, and other little things on the line. I remember my first EDCT on the line.

The CA said “do we have an EDCT?”

me “What’s that?”

CA “what!, how the F have you gotten this far without knowing what an EDCT is?!”...then explained it.

Me “well, we didn’t have those flying F16’s, we took off whenever the F we wanted”

I get it, and understand the new terminology and procedures with everything. That's a given. Yes, you are right about a lot of them going to the regionals to get more time or currency. Some came straight off carriers though where the lack of certain skills surprised me. I guess it's just a a very different world with very different equipment in a VERY different environment. So I always kept that in the back of my mind. No doubt you have to be very competent to do that type of flying or you would kill yourself in a hurry. It's Just very different. Trust me, Not military bashing, they are great too and its good to have the mix, just commenting on observations of several years of training new guys.

My favorite part about training the military guys was always the study habits were on point and they showed up prepared everyday. The systems and book knowledge was never an issue. They rarely ever didn't work hard at it. Although I had to make them stop calling me Sir or Captain. lol. My name is fine. :)

Name User
07-20-2018, 01:44 PM
Ryan P, you need to work on your brevity. No one is reading those long posts.

sherpster
07-20-2018, 02:14 PM
Ryan P, you need to work on your brevity. No one is reading those long posts.

Exactly. .......

Pilot X
07-20-2018, 02:48 PM
Ryan P, you need to work on your brevity. No one is reading those long posts.

You ainít kidding, being I can barely read, it would take me all day to read one of his posts

jcountry
07-21-2018, 05:20 AM
This times 1000.

I'm a millennial, but my parents didn't subscribe to the nonsense that others did. I can see the difference in my peers.

Excellent!

There are some very good ones out there!

(I just donít know many. I can think of two real solid kids in my nephewís entire circle of friends. The rest are a bunch of spoiled narcissists.).

Gooselives
07-21-2018, 06:19 AM
For everyoneís sanity still in the training department I sure wish they would go back to the old standards!

Use to be a 2-3 day event. Stage 1 testing, people weeded out on the spot, next stage HR, people weeded out, Technical interview with line pilot, people weeded out, down to half what the group started with. Now sim eval in AA full motion sim, 727, Saab, whatever was available. Another chunk weeded out. Then half day astronaut physical at AA if you got that far. Then Captain review board. We started with a full room of people on day 1 and ended with like 5 or 6.

Now they hire anyone with an app basically and let the check airman/APDs sort it out because all managers care about is numbers. Which SUCKS dumping that mess on training. Huge waste of everyoneís time/money/sanity doing hiring that way. You could get people that havenít flown in 20 years or have zero instrument scan, and I mean ZERO. Which is always fun. 100 extra hours later. :rolleyes:

This all day. #love



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