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View Full Version : ARMS Records not matching


NMTXLine
07-17-2018, 04:52 PM
Some of the worst advise I ever got joining the AF was ďdonít worry about logging your time, someone else does that for you.Ē Admittedly, Iím an idiot.

Iíve spent a lot of time transferring my ARMS records into an Excel Logbook and for the life of me I canít get the totals in my individual sorties to match my summary sheet. Iím about 50 hours / 10 sorties off (the AF records show more). I have scrubbed it about 5 times and there arenít any mistakes. I assume itís possible Iím missing a sheet from my records but I copied everything they had.

How do I explain this to the airlines? Iím ok taking the hit on several hours, but Iím sure it will look funny when my logbook and my ARMS records donít match. Any advise?

For any younger guys out there. It is well worth it after ever sortie to log your time and do a legit scrub every year with HARM.


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ipdanno
07-18-2018, 01:13 AM
If you haven't logged your mil time in a civilian Logbook from the get-go, you probably won't get it to read correctly now.

My advice is to drop the project. You don't need that headache. You don't need a 'logbook' for your military time. Airlines accept your HARMS printout and Flight Summary as your Logbook for mil time, as long as you follow their conversion protocols on your application. The airlines understand how your HARMS report and Flt Summary are created, that you can't fudge the numbers, and that you received about one Form 8 eval per year of flying. Most companies will tell you that 'Other' time shouldn't be included in your totals. As a heavy lift instructor pilot, you've got the quantity and quality of hours to get you to an interview. Handing the Logbook Review Captain a three or four page mil printout allows them an easy look-through, then you get right to the Tell-me-about-a-time stories. You know, the ones that start; "There I was, out of airspeed, altitude, and ideas....."

If you want to attach a sheet to your summary detailing HOW you converted, along with your 1-5 year lookback totals, great. Just follow the guidance on the application/ website.

Good luck.

NMTXLine
07-18-2018, 04:28 AM
Awesome, that is great to hear. Thanks for the response!


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Hacker15e
07-18-2018, 04:41 AM
Perfect advice from ipdanno above.

Two things mil pilots should be doing is keeping their own logbook *and* bouncing it against your ARMS reports when you have to go in annually and sign them (instead of just blindly signing the pages because you think you have something better to do and the ARMS shop folks don't expect you to actually go in and line-by-line verify it).

But, since most folks don't do that, it is pretty typical to have an ARMS log full of mistakes. About halfway through my flying career I decided to get very serious about keeping my own log and keeping ARMS correct, and I found all sorts of hilarious mistakes that had made it through even multiple audits:

- NVG time logged on a day sortie
- Actual instrument time logged from a sim ride
- Flights logged in the wrong *year*
- Flights in aircraft I was not qualified in and had never been qualified in
- The second sortie of numerous UPT out-and-backs deleted because auditors thought they were "duplicate entries"
....ad nausaeum.

I spent way too much time and effort getting the record corrected on these errors (I'm sure the HARM shop NCOIC really loved me). The sad part is that the total amount of error for all of these things was down around 3%, so even the mistakes didn't noticeably misrepresent my overall aviation experience or even my experience down in the PIC, night, instrument, etc, categories.

As mentioned, though, the airlines look at the ARMS reports as more apt to be correct and less likely to be pencil-whipped than a personal logbook, anyway. They know that it contains some inaccuracies, just as any written record will, but it is seen as the most complete and reliable source.

I had (and still have) a massively over-thought and detailed electronic logbook that I spent literally years creating and curating to ensure it was as accurate and detailed as possible. The logbook was the source of some amusement at the airline interviews I went to, with interviewers looking at the detail it contained more as a curiosity than anything else ("Oh, you flew a B-25? What was that like?").

But, the fact is, my plain ol' ARMS report (errors and all) would have done the job the same way and with much less hassle.

So, my advice for all the military folks reading this thread is still to keep your own log, actually check your ARMS report annually to keep it accurate, and use your personal log to accurately track the times you will need for the airlines.

For OP, however, at this point in your career the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

JTwift
07-18-2018, 05:40 AM
- Flights in aircraft I was not qualified in and had never been qualified in


I went through T-37, then T-44s in Corpus. While in Corpse, your records were "attached" to Randolph AFB. The first page of my HARM records is from pilot training where it shows my T-37 and T-38 time. Yes....T-38. I've never even sat in a T-38.

NMTXLine
07-18-2018, 10:57 AM
Perfect advice from ipdanno

For OP, however, at this point in your career the juice isn't worth the squeeze.


Yeah, Iím kicking myself for getting caught off guard on this one. Now I always mentor young pilots to not make the same mistake.

Iím using the energy now to at least get times in the right ball park for the application, like Hacker said +/- a few percent. Does that sound legitimate for filling in the time column on airline apps or pilot credentials?

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses.

Beech Dude
07-18-2018, 05:38 PM
You're putting in the effort and showing attention to detail. That speaks volumes and can only help. Like many of us, I caught mistakes from my ARMS records v. My logbook. Sims logged as sorties, vice versa, a few missing hrs/sorties. I identified them and have a record to explain why. Also I don't log OTHER so my totals will never match anyway.

PurpleToolBox
07-19-2018, 01:59 AM
You're putting in the effort and showing attention to detail. That speaks volumes and can only help. Like many of us, I caught mistakes from my ARMS records v. My logbook. Sims logged as sorties, vice versa, a few missing hrs/sorties. I identified them and have a record to explain why. Also I don't log OTHER so my totals will never match anyway.


As the others said, just use the USAF HARMs printout, the sheet with the totals from each airframe and qual and the master total. Then be able to explain (perhaps a nice easy to read Word or Excel sheet) how you summed your PIC and SIC time. Remember, some airlines will not let you use Other time, some will. Have a sheet worked up for the airlines that do and those that don't count Other time.

BottleRocket
05-13-2019, 03:40 PM
So, I know that it may not be worth the squeeze, but what if you imported your entire FRF into Excel and your ARMS grand total is nearly 300 hours less what Excel is calculating? This is excluding Sim time or Student time. If you've more than met the application minimums even with the error, is it still a juice not worth the squeeze scenario?

yeargab
05-14-2019, 12:27 AM
Perfect advice from ipdanno above.
I found all sorts of hilarious mistakes that had made it through even multiple audits:
- Actual instrument time logged from a sim ride


For the younger AF folks you should always log actual instrument in a sim while in IMC. Sim Ins (block 32) is for simulated instrument conditions ie. youíre flying in VMC and wearing a hood.

Hacker15e
05-14-2019, 06:33 AM
For the younger AF folks you should always log actual instrument in a sim while in IMC. Sim Ins (block 32) is for simulated instrument conditions ie. you’re flying in VMC and wearing a hood.

Yes, the current 11-401 does allow INST time to be logged in "an accredited flight simulator or flight training device". I chased the AFI references down the rabbit hole a bit and couldn't find a list of which sims or FTDs were accredited.

Regarding what you quoted from my earlier post, I can't speak for the actual verbiage in 11-401 in whatever editions were available between 1998 and 2010, but of the 150-ish hours of F-15E WST time in my ARMS records, exactly two of the entries credited under INST and all of the rest was credited under SIM INST. Hard to believe that the ARMS folks would have been wrong the vast majority of the time; it is more likely that either 11-401 changed between then and now, or the F-15E WST was not an accredited simulator (non-moving with no visual, so not even a Level C equivalent).

That being said, one of the main points of this thread is OP's question, though, is "how do I explain this to the airlines?". 14 CFR doesn't allow "actual instrument" time to be logged in a sim, regardless of the fidelity of that sim. If your audience for your logbook is an airline application, it would be wise to understand this difference.

Personally, I logged military experience in my personal logbook using as close to the civilian definitions (or the "airline definitions", as the case may be) as I could for ease of translation to an airline app or discussion in an interview room. Although, as I've posted many times, unless you do substantial GA flying outside of the military or are so close to the minimum flight times that you need to, it ultimately doesn't seem worth it to even bring anything besides your ARMS reports to an airline interview anyway.

Phoenix21
05-14-2019, 07:02 AM
For the younger AF folks you should always log actual instrument in a sim while in IMC. Sim Ins (block 32) is for simulated instrument conditions ie. youíre flying in VMC and wearing a hood.

Thatís not particularly good advice if theyíre looking for future flying employment on the outside. Many places limit or specifically exclude simulator flight time for applicants all together. Logging actual instrument time when in an simulator goes down the road of mixing excluded flight time in with acceptable flight time. Down the road theyíre going to have to go back in and cut out the ďactualĒ time they logged in the sim and potentially explain why their are hundreds of hours difference between what they logged and what they actually flew in an aircraft.

yeargab
05-14-2019, 02:23 PM
Thatís not particularly good advice if theyíre looking for future flying employment on the outside. Many places limit or specifically exclude simulator flight time for applicants all together. Logging actual instrument time when in an simulator goes down the road of mixing excluded flight time in with acceptable flight time. Down the road theyíre going to have to go back in and cut out the ďactualĒ time they logged in the sim and potentially explain why their are hundreds of hours difference between what they logged and what they actually flew in an aircraft.

No, they donít cross streams. My initial point was just a quick reminder for any young AF pilots that arenít familiar with the AFI11-401 that all Simulators are accredited for logging primary instrument time according to AFI 36-2251 (management of Air Force Training Systems). Those primary instrument hours logged in a simulator will NOT be included in your total primary Instrument hours that you claim as instrument time and print out to bring to your next interview. Im simply stating a procedure that many people get wrong when filling out a 781. This could be beneficial for young Guard or Reserve Ltís trying to get their ATP or land their first regional and irrelevant for anyone else. Thatís all. My advice for the main point of this entire post is have a good scanner app on your phone and scan every single 781 that has your name on it from day one. This is most helpful for heavy guys trying to figure out the infamous ďhow much PIC do I have?Ē question

ARAMP1
05-15-2019, 10:54 AM
I only interviewed with one company so YMMV, but when asked about flight hours, I handed them my single page ARMS summary (I had my complete file with me just in case). They spent a total of less than 10 seconds looking at it and handed it back without asking me anything about it.