Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : [1] 2

View Full Version : Toxic Culture


Al Czervik
07-18-2018, 02:56 AM
I came across this and it reminded me of this place. I’ve been shocked since the merger. From the outside, I always thought it was mgt. I’ve found it’s the same or worse among the pilots. I hope we young guys don’t become the same.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/lizryan/2015/08/03/six-signs-your-companys-culture-is-toxic/amp/


aa73
07-18-2018, 07:13 AM
It’s all what you make of it Al. In the end it is our choice, let it get to us or focus on the important things in life. There is undoubtedly a toxic culture at this place and yet I manage to have a ton of fun , keep a great attitude every trip, and try to pass that on to my coworkers.

I have seen and flown with folks that let the toxic culture get to them and it is not pretty... heck, just take a look at C&R :eek:

Been here 18.5 years and still having a blast. Taking first available upgrade and now being a NB CA in base make it that much more fun. However that does not stop me from fighting the good fight to change the things that need to be changed.

:cool:

B757200ER
07-18-2018, 08:31 AM
It’s all what you make of it Al. In the end it is our choice, let it get to us or focus on the important things in life. There is undoubtedly a toxic culture at this place and yet I manage to have a ton of fun , keep a great attitude every trip, and try to pass that on to my coworkers.

Been here 18.5 years and still having a blast. Taking first available upgrade and now being a NB CA in base make it that much more fun. However that does not stop me from fighting the good fight to change the things that need to be changed.

Don't listen to this guy, Al----he won the Virginia State Lottery and married a leggy Super-Model.


sherpster
07-18-2018, 11:25 AM
Im new and I dont really see the toxic culture you speak of. Maybe in time but for now I just dont see it.

Regionalsuck
07-18-2018, 11:54 AM
Im new and I dont really see the toxic culture you speak of. Maybe in time but for now I just dont see it.

If you are new to AA you probably won't notice it as much, yet. The waters have been somewhat "calm" lately.

I think there has been a positive shift since the merger but a lot of it is just for show PR BS lately. Not buying most of the peptalk they are selling that is not backed up by real action. I'll give them some credit, Some things ARE getting better and some things have changed but a lot of things are the same as they have been forever.

This company still has a really bad employee vs management mentality and until they get rid of that there will be no real change. There is still pretty much no accountability for anything in the decision making chain here. You will likely see everyone on both sides true colors again when contract negotiations come around and all of a sudden nobody can afford anything anymore on management side, and the mass number of senior retiring pilots willing to throw the junior half of the list under the bus to "get theirs". We will soon see how much the company has "really" changed their us vs them mentality when the new contract is in the works. I hope it has changed for the better but have my doubts. "Employee's just don't have much impact on profitability" says Doug Parker, AA CEO.....

Everyone in management ranks still passes the blame on down the line so nothing ever really gets fixed here like it should. Valid and logical ideas to save money, improve morale or make things better are virtually always ignored and even stupider ideas are implemented in their place, then of course those almost always fail miserably at the expense of millions of dollars and ****ed off passengers.

Is it less toxic than it was? I think so, but not drastically when you get to the core of it. I have seen a small change for the better though over the past few years. At my last position I worked with management more closely than I did as a regular old line pilot and still saw the exact same toxic mentality that we have had for years, still in full action and proceeding forward. Until that crap is all cleaned out. Good luck.

On a good note, I have seen some really awful management who should not be in charge of a lawn mower lose their positions over the past few years which is a positive sign. Then half the time they just replace them with questionable characters that shouldn't be in those positions either which is another story.

Will we be in the top 1,000 best places to work list by 2020? No. Maybe we make the top 50,000? Lol. Which is better than we were at somewhere around #489,512, 7 or 8 years ago. So we have that going for us! :D

PRS Guitars
07-18-2018, 12:31 PM
Al,

I get it with management, especially middle management, but what have you seen among pilots? I haven’t really had any problems, I’ve been working with folks from all three sides pretty regularly the last 6 months and have actually been pretty impressed with how we’ve integrated. A few minor operational differences(trash bag or “market bag” placement, intercom use, etc) that I just adapt to, but that’s it. Are you referring to C&R? Because that’s definitely an outlier IMO.

For what it’s worth though, I’m a chameleon FO, I know when I’m flying with LAWA, LAA, or LUS east and know the idiosyncrasies. I don’t give a crap about any of them, so I blend in. I keep my opinions to myself as well, unless engaged on them which is rare. Makes for a pleasant trip most of the time.

aa73
07-18-2018, 01:57 PM
Don't listen to this guy, Al----he won the Virginia State Lottery and married a leggy Super-Model.

And then I woke up... well, about the lottery anyway :)

sherpster
07-18-2018, 03:19 PM
F the old guys, those toxic geezers are out of here in the next 5. What, close to 3500 straight off the top GONE in 5. This place will improve drastically when those selfish, non-paying-it-forward, ignorant d!cks move on. The nearly 4000 that were hired after 2007 are already starting to make waves, we're active, we vote and we're kicking the old farts to the curb. AArena = C&R, treat it the same.

Be positive man! Damn, you’ll stroke out at 50 if you dont. You did make me laugh though

mainlineAF
07-18-2018, 03:28 PM
Meh. It’s what you make of it.

We literally can’t leave bc of the seniority system. So love the one you’re with and do what you can to make things better.

Somehow i have a feeling the toxic culture will go away when we get a new contract lol.

PRS Guitars
07-18-2018, 05:34 PM
Meh. It’s what you make of it.

We literally can’t leave bc of the seniority system. So love the one you’re with and do what you can to make things better.

Somehow i have a feeling the toxic culture will go away when we get a new contract lol.

To the former...exactly right

To the latter...or get worse:cool:

SilverandSore
07-18-2018, 06:07 PM
Be positive man! Damn, you’ll stroke out at 50 if you dont. You did make me laugh though

I’m hear ya! :)

AwkwardTurtle
07-18-2018, 06:10 PM
No one who’s left AA has regretted it. Just saying.

jcountry
07-18-2018, 08:13 PM
No one who’s left AA has regretted it. Just saying.

Quit smoking crack.

This is far better than where I came from. I can think of several hundred who would love to be here.

Want to resign-so one can get the chance?

A330FoodCritic
07-18-2018, 09:33 PM
Quad espresso maker, cannot really complain :D:D:D

mainlineAF
07-19-2018, 01:05 AM
No one who’s left AA has regretted it. Just saying.



No ones leaving except for new hires who live in other airlines bases and retirees.

iHateAMR
07-19-2018, 01:47 PM
No ones leaving except for new hires who live in other airlines bases and retirees.

I know a guy who lived in CLT and left after 3 years at AAL, what do I win?

Route66
07-19-2018, 03:59 PM
Smoking a Montecristo. Prefer Cuban, but I got the DR version instead. Seems ok, but light on aroma. Got a better suggestion?

Sliceback
07-19-2018, 04:26 PM
I hope we young guys don’t become the same.



Look at the exploding heads, from the young/new guys, over the various issues - SC/LC when do you call in sick? What jump seat system should we have? What about ABC!?! XYZ?!?

If you disagree with me you're part of the toxic culture and I hope you wake up dead one day. :-/

It's not an issue just limited to old cranky guys. Over the years there isn't that much difference among pilots except their ages, and almost everyone gets older.

Al Czervik
07-19-2018, 04:27 PM
Smoking a Montecristo. Prefer Cuban, but I got the DR version instead. Seems ok, but light on aroma. Got a better suggestion?

Arturo Fuente Opus X
Partagas LUSitania

Cheddar
07-19-2018, 04:27 PM
Flor de Las Antilles (my father brand), or Oliva Master blend. A bit more vitamin N than the DR Monte’s, and verrrrrrrrry flavorful! I usually pair with a Balvenie 12 or 2016 Garrison Bros - depends on scotch or bourbon mood. 🥃

We may not agree on much concerning unions, but smoke on mate.



BTW, efffff Apple and the 200 autocorrects I had to override for this post!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheddar
07-19-2018, 04:33 PM
Smoking a Montecristo. Prefer Cuban, but I got the DR version instead. Seems ok, but light on aroma. Got a better suggestion?



Montecristo #2 (Habano) is my all time favorite. The Dominicans don’t do it justice. Cohiba Behike is right behind (also Cuban purple).

Enjoy your cigar!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheddar
07-19-2018, 04:35 PM
Arturo Fuente Opus X

Partagas LUSitania


I’ve still yet to have an Opus X! Nice call on the Partagas.

There’s been a lot of boutique companies offering great cigars, but sometimes the old favorites are just that - the old favorites!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Al Czervik
07-19-2018, 04:37 PM
Look at the exploding heads, from the young/new guys, over the various issues - SC/LC when do you call in sick? What jump seat system should we have? What about ABC!?! XYZ?!?

If you disagree with me you're part of the toxic culture and I hope you wake up dead one day. :-/

It's not an issue just limited to old cranky guys. Over the years there isn't that much difference among pilots except their ages, and almost everyone gets older.

There are issues between the young and old that will never change. I’m speaking more along the lines of CA’s that don’t buy in to the whole CRM idea, the ones that tell you you’ll get respect when you become a CA, the ones that say “oh no, you’re civilian scum? I usually don’t fly with civilian guys so you’ll understand if we don’t see eye to eye” the ones that yell at you for doing things by the book and when you show them the book they still deflect responsibility. (All in 2 months)
Those guys slice. I don’t care what they think of sick calls or the jumpseat.

Route66
07-19-2018, 04:56 PM
How much? Can a guy get a good one for under 10 bucks?

Al Czervik
07-19-2018, 05:06 PM
How much? Can a guy get a good one for under 10 bucks?

The opus is 20-30 (worth it to try)
Partagas is ~20

Sliceback
07-19-2018, 05:21 PM
There are issues between the young and old that will never change. I’m speaking more along the lines of CA’s that don’t buy in to the whole CRM idea, the ones that tell you you’ll get respect when you become a CA, the ones that say “oh no, you’re civilian scum? I usually don’t fly with civilian guys so you’ll understand if we don’t see eye to eye” the ones that yell at you for doing things by the book and when you show them the book they still deflect responsibility. (All in 2 months)
Those guys slice. I don’t care what they think of sick calls or the jumpseat.

Being called “scum?” Grab your stuff and walk away. Ask crew tracking if you’re getting reassigned or if you should go home?

How many guys have you flown with at AA? How many were that bad? Blaming the overwhelming majority for the actions of a tiny minority is over-reacting.

Al Czervik
07-19-2018, 05:40 PM
Being called “scum?” Grab your stuff and walk away. Ask crew tracking if you’re getting reassigned or if you should go home?

How many guys have you flown with at AA? How many were that bad? Blaming the overwhelming majority for the actions of a tiny minority is over-reacting.

4 out of 11 guys. 36%
hoping things change

nimslow
07-19-2018, 06:32 PM
There are issues between the young and old that will never change. I’m speaking more along the lines of CA’s that don’t buy in to the whole CRM idea, the ones that tell you you’ll get respect when you become a CA, the ones that say “oh no, you’re civilian scum? I usually don’t fly with civilian guys so you’ll understand if we don’t see eye to eye” the ones that yell at you for doing things by the book and when you show them the book they still deflect responsibility. (All in 2 months)
Those guys slice. I don’t care what they think of sick calls or the jumpseat.

In all my time in the right seat at LAA, I never experienced any of those things. Sure, there were some guys/gals I didn't get along with 100%, but never the kind of stuff you experienced. The majority. of the captains were great people, that I'd be happy to fly with any time. Only two ca's ever made my DNP list.

Sorry you haven't had better experiences, but I don't think it's the norm at all.

EMBFlyer
07-19-2018, 07:03 PM
There are issues between the young and old that will never change. I’m speaking more along the lines of CA’s that don’t buy in to the whole CRM idea, the ones that tell you you’ll get respect when you become a CA, the ones that say “oh no, you’re civilian scum? I usually don’t fly with civilian guys so you’ll understand if we don’t see eye to eye” the ones that yell at you for doing things by the book and when you show them the book they still deflect responsibility. (All in 2 months)
Those guys slice. I don’t care what they think of sick calls or the jumpseat.

I'm in, undoubtedly, the most American Airlines base in the entire AA system and I've NEVER experience anything like you describe. The guys I've flown with on the 737 have been nothing short of friendly, professional and a joy to share the cockpit with. I appreciate the things they show me (about not only the airplane, but the AA wAAy) and we get along great. I'd venture to say that 90+% of the guys I've flown with have been prior military. They look over and see me as an American Airlines pilot, just like they are.

I agree with Slice, if you're getting that kind of treatment, grab you bags and walk off the jet. I doubt any chief pilot will back them instead of you.

A330FoodCritic
07-19-2018, 07:11 PM
There are issues between the young and old that will never change. I’m speaking more along the lines of CA’s that don’t buy in to the whole CRM idea, the ones that tell you you’ll get respect when you become a CA, the ones that say “oh no, you’re civilian scum? I usually don’t fly with civilian guys so you’ll understand if we don’t see eye to eye” the ones that yell at you for doing things by the book and when you show them the book they still deflect responsibility. (All in 2 months)
Those guys slice. I don’t care what they think of sick calls or the jumpseat.

What fleet are you on? Have never experienced stuff like that. Have had a few penises but they are few and far between.

You shouldn't take that crap from anyone.

PRS Guitars
07-19-2018, 07:21 PM
Al,

Sorry to hear that, sounds like you’ve been paired with a few “5%ers” I’m in LA and the military guys I’ve flown with, I usually don’t even know they’re military until half way through the first leg, when I ask them their background, or they ask me.

I have been told of a few CA’s to avoid, by both LAA and LAWA guys I’ve flown with, and have heard some stories, but they are well known entities.

Don’t want to get controversial here and ruffle feathers, but flying with LAWA guys is great.

Check your PM’s

450knotOffice
07-19-2018, 09:38 PM
In five years here, I’ve flown with only a handful (maybe 5) of Captains who were less than a pleasure to fly with. Military, civilian, senior, junior, nAAtive, East, West, Reno, TWA, Eagle flows who’ve upgraded. Doesn’t matter. They’ve overwhelmingly been good folks to spend time with in the cockpit.

Route66
07-20-2018, 03:36 AM
I believe in flogging the F/O the first five minutes of every trip.

I get concerned when they tell me they'll give me forty-five minutes to stop.:)

Sliceback
07-20-2018, 06:37 AM
the ones that tell you you’ll get respect when you become a CA,

You get more respect as a Captain. It's been that way for years and won't change. The final decision maker naturally gets more respect.

They can lose that respect, big time, and is often a reason for the 'do not pair' list, but within limits they have the law and company behind them.

Dolphinflyer
07-20-2018, 08:01 AM
Al Cz,

On the whole, I think you're dead wrong. There is a chance if you're on Reserve and junior that you just happened to draw the "problem children" with huge "Do Not Pair" listings that everyone avoided from lineholders on down to everyone on Reserve until the most junior without a seat when the music stopped.

I've got over 18 years of involuntary right seat (some FE) here in all fleets from light twin narrowbody, std narrowbody and widebody flying domestic as well as international. This has also included 5 separate contentious Section 6 or major contract negotiations. Nowhere did the numbers rise to yours. This even included a period where Group II Captains were making in today's dollars what Group III 3rd year FO's make today.

As FO, you never get a real good statistical sampling of what you claim until you upgrade and fly with many FO's, not just the small group of other FO's you personally know. For example, as CA in a rather large GII bid status with around 190 CA's, the FO's usually counted on one hand the CA's that the are "less desirable" to fly with and always the same names. That number has been consistent for years and with sampling numbers of well over 50 FO's. Try matching those numbers working under any supervisor in any industry.

jcountry
07-20-2018, 09:30 AM
Being called “scum?” Grab your stuff and walk away. Ask crew tracking if you’re getting reassigned or if you should go home?

How many guys have you flown with at AA? How many were that bad? Blaming the overwhelming majority for the actions of a tiny minority is over-reacting.

I’d damn sure leave.

He can find some other idiot to put up with that kind of crap.

Let him explain the delay/cancellation to the CP

Pilot X
07-20-2018, 12:20 PM
4 out of 11 guys. 36%
hoping things change

In my 11 years at US and AA(now flying capt in an AA base) I have flown with ZERO guys that were anywhere near that....maybe it’s you? :eek:

Al Czervik
07-20-2018, 02:04 PM
In my 11 years at US and AA(now flying capt in an AA base) I have flown with ZERO guys that were anywhere near that....maybe it’s you? :eek:..........

biigD
07-20-2018, 02:12 PM
I’m an Airways guy now at LGA in the 737, and the crews have on the whole have been awesome.

We definitely have some work to do on our contract, but at least in NYC I haven’t seen any evidence of a toxic culture.

Cheddar
07-21-2018, 06:43 AM
How much? Can a guy get a good one for under 10 bucks?



Important bridge building cigar related thread hijack!!!

Yes, any of the Oliva serie V (the millenniaño is delicious but a few $ more) and master blends are usually 7-10 depending on shape. The La Flor de Las Antilles is 6-9. Both have been rated over 94 by multiple magazines. I won’t buy anything over ten unless its a special occasion... like breathing on Tuesday!

Ok - carry on and apologies!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Route66
07-22-2018, 05:44 AM
Important bridge building cigar related thread hijack!!!

Yes, any of the Oliva serie V (the millenniaño is delicious but a few $ more) and master blends are usually 7-10 depending on shape. The La Flor de Las Antilles is 6-9. Both have been rated over 94 by multiple magazines. I won’t buy anything over ten unless its a special occasion... like breathing on Tuesday!

Ok - carry on and apologies!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks. Your channel dial has resumed working and all may resume the usually scheduled programming.

crzipilot
07-31-2018, 04:37 PM
20 years, never had a DNP list......I now have 4 on the list. :eek::eek::eek:

R57 relay
07-31-2018, 06:17 PM
Al, I’ve given this a lot of thought before responding. I think those early LUS captains you flew with just set the bar too dang high!;)

Al Czervik
07-31-2018, 06:40 PM
Al, I’ve given this a lot of thought before responding. I think those early LUS captains you flew with just set the bar too dang high!;)

I couldn’t agree more!

A330FoodCritic
08-01-2018, 03:00 AM
Al, I’ve given this a lot of thought before responding. I think those early LUS captains you flew with just set the bar too dang high!;)

Back in the day those LUS DCA captains would take the whole crew out on overnights. We even hit that sports bar in Crystal City a couple times after a sequence.

Sliceback
08-01-2018, 07:11 AM
Al, I’ve given this a lot of thought before responding. I think those early LUS captains you flew with just set the bar too dang high!;)

Jumpseating the other day. I was about the fourth person off the airplane. FO was the fifth. He couldn't get out of there fast enough. Not a word to the LUS Captain, just grabbed his bag and walked off.

Sometimes there's a reason a great trip goes to OG, or PR, and junior guys can grab it and the reason has nothing to do with manning.

R57 relay
08-01-2018, 08:16 AM
Jumpseating the other day. I was about the fourth person off the airplane. FO was the fifth. He couldn't get out of there fast enough. Not a word to the LUS Captain, just grabbed his bag and walked off.

Sometimes there's a reason a great trip goes to OG, or PR, and junior guys can grab it and the reason has nothing to do with manning.

Absolutely. LUS had it's share of characters. Just poking Al as he had to put up with this character early on.

Name User
08-01-2018, 09:12 AM
Jumpseating the other day. I was about the fourth person off the airplane. FO was the fifth. He couldn't get out of there fast enough. Not a word to the LUS Captain, just grabbed his bag and walked off.

Sometimes there's a reason a great trip goes to OG, or PR, and junior guys can grab it and the reason has nothing to do with manning.

To be fair most of the old school LUS guys are gone. They were in their early 60's five years ago. The ones mostly there now were the ones that were FOs for 25 years that hate life.

jcountry
08-01-2018, 10:32 AM
Back in the day those LUS DCA captains would take the whole crew out on overnights. We even hit that sports bar in Crystal City a couple times after a sequence.

They really are a good group!

I’ve flown with several who tipped the van driver $5 each time and wouldn’t let me pay.

PRS Guitars
08-01-2018, 10:32 AM
Having taken this job right after the merger was finalized, I consider myself to be without a dog in the fight. I did work on the LUS side my first 4 years and now LAA. I also fly with many LAWA. I’m starting to realize it’s mainly minor cultural differences that one is simply not used to (happys to glads, as they say). I think some of the edge guys who’ve switched bases feel, is that the long time CA’s from both sides have some preconceived ideas about the other side and aren’t sure how to act. Or maybe they had one bad experience and now expect that.

There is also the underlying tension from the SLI and some of the misconceptions about that as well. For example, I had a Captain tell me new hires hired after the merger (me) were put ahead of TWA guys. Uh...nope, not correct at all. There is some of that from all sides. I just try to avoid the hot button issues and do my job well, seems to work. I also never bring up my LUS past until asked. This usually happens after a leg or 2, and by then they’ve formed their own opinion about me.

R57 relay
08-01-2018, 12:43 PM
To be fair most of the old school LUS guys are gone. They were in their early 60's five years ago. The ones mostly there now were the ones that were FOs for 25 years that hate life.

I did almost 20 years in the right seat and don't hate life. But I fly with plenty of guys that had to "spend X years at X!" and hate life.

450knotOffice
08-02-2018, 09:27 PM
I’ve flown with countless legacy AA guys over the last five years who were 15-22 year FO’s, as well as quite a few LUS guys with the same story. Almost all of them were (are) awesome guys to fly with. They spent so much time as FO’s that they learned exactly who they wanted to emulate (their good CA’s) and who NOT to emulate (the miserable overcontrolling a$$hats). Not only that, most are happy to FINALLY be captains (better late than never), and finally have excellent paychecks.

This has been my experience in MIA and DFW on the 737, and LAX on the Bus.

MrObvious
08-03-2018, 09:49 AM
20 years, never had a DNP list......I now have 4 on the list. :eek::eek::eek:

What's dnp?

Fleet Warp
08-03-2018, 10:30 AM
What's dnp?

Do Not Phly?

OVBIII
08-03-2018, 10:59 AM
Do Not Phly?
Date No Phatty?

MrObvious
08-03-2018, 11:06 AM
Date No Phatty?

Ooohhhh :eek:

aa73
08-03-2018, 01:58 PM
I fly with my favorite DNP every trip. Ahh the freedom... :D

Sliceback
08-03-2018, 02:27 PM
Do Not Pair. You won't fly with that Captain. Captains don't have that option.

Wisdom from the #1 CA in my bid status back decades ago - "right now you're in the FO's club. You get to hear your buddies complain about the CA's they fly with. When you upgrade you'll be in the Captain's club. They'll mention your buddies who are the same FO's who are doing the most b*itching. Guys will say "upgrading went to his head" when he upgrades. No, he was a jerk before but when he was the FO other people were insulated by the Captain so they didn't see it. Now he's the Captain and there's no buffer."

Duffman
09-02-2018, 06:54 AM
Out of curiosity if you end up flying with a really bad CA, is there any professional way to call them out? Or are your only two options to walk off the flight at the gate or put up with their BS the whole flight?

Buzzlightyear
09-02-2018, 10:51 AM
Out of curiosity if you end up flying with a really bad CA, is there any professional way to call them out? Or are your only two options to walk off the flight at the gate or put up with their BS the whole flight?

It’s best to be blunt. Ask him why are you an a**? If he has a dumb look of shock after that point out the issues to him. If you absolutely can’t work with someone let them know safety is being compromised in your opinion. We have Pro standards at every base who you can call. You can also have yourself removed if it comes to that.

symbian simian
09-03-2018, 12:51 PM
It’s best to be blunt. Ask him why are you an a**? If he has a dumb look of shock after that point out the issues to him. If you absolutely can’t work with someone let them know safety is being compromised in your opinion. We have Pro standards at every base who you can call. You can also have yourself removed if it comes to that.

Best answer, while I was an FO I let too much slide to keep the peace, or blew up after waiting too long. Nip it in the bud, get it out. Chances are he might even appreciate the feedback, if not he deserves the blowback. Wish I could be this mature.

Duffman
09-04-2018, 07:12 AM
Thanks for letting me know what I can say/do. Wasn't sure if speaking up would somehow result in getting in trouble or what tools I had to hold a CA accountable and vice versa. I know it's a small minority, but statistically speaking, I'm bound to run into a few in my career.

Al Czervik
09-04-2018, 12:24 PM
Fragile egos

MrObvious
09-04-2018, 03:45 PM
Fragile egos
⬆️⬆️⬆️ Yeah there ya go

jcountry
09-05-2018, 05:08 AM
Do Not Pair. You won't fly with that Captain. Captains don't have that option.

Wisdom from the #1 CA in my bid status back decades ago - "right now you're in the FO's club. You get to hear your buddies complain about the CA's they fly with. When you upgrade you'll be in the Captain's club. They'll mention your buddies who are the same FO's who are doing the most b*itching. Guys will say "upgrading went to his head" when he upgrades. No, he was a jerk before but when he was the FO other people were insulated by the Captain so they didn't see it. Now he's the Captain and there's no buffer."

Good point.

There’s a whole FB thread by some guy who’s losing his mind because the capt touched his heading big when it was HIS leg.

Three or four others seem just as outraged by such an unnacceptable travesty.

I think someone who is getting that freaked out at this point will likely find his way onto some DNP lists one day.

#itsaheadingbug-don’thaveastroke

(I strongly suspect that said capt is doing this just to **** with someone. People who are that tightly wound are just fun to screw with.)

A330FoodCritic
09-05-2018, 11:21 AM
Good point.

There’s a whole FB thread by some guy who’s losing his mind because the capt touched his heading big when it was HIS leg.



Had a captain lose his mind because I spun his speed down in moderate turbulence to .78. He was trying to avoid the old 30 in 7 issue.

I yelled at a captain after a flight because we were a life guard flight and he was flying .72 trying to get to 1000 A320 PIC. Even center *****ed at him.

jcountry
09-05-2018, 11:43 AM
Had a captain lose his mind because I spun his speed down in moderate turbulence to .78. He was trying to avoid the old 30 in 7 issue.

I yelled at a captain after a flight because we were a life guard flight and he was flying .72 trying to get to 1000 A320 PIC. Even center *****ed at him.

Yeah.

A few are out there.

But hdg bug? Not that big a deal in my book.....

Much bigger fish to fry.

A330FoodCritic
09-05-2018, 11:55 AM
Yeah.

A few are out there.

But hdg bug? Not that big a deal in my book.....

Much bigger fish to fry.

For sure, I would have just said thanks :-)

Al Czervik
09-05-2018, 01:12 PM
Good point.

There’s a whole FB thread by some guy who’s losing his mind because the capt touched his heading big when it was HIS leg.

Three or four others seem just as outraged by such an unnacceptable travesty.

I think someone who is getting that freaked out at this point will likely find his way onto some DNP lists one day.

#itsaheadingbug-don’thaveastroke

(I strongly suspect that said capt is doing this just to **** with someone. People who are that tightly wound are just fun to screw with.)

Isn’t that the same CA that made him wear a shirt he brought for the FO?

Rawhide16
09-05-2018, 06:19 PM
Isn’t that the same CA that made him wear a shirt he brought for the FO?

Say what now?

jcountry
09-05-2018, 07:06 PM
Isn’t that the same CA that made him wear a shirt he brought for the FO?

IDK.

That would definitely be a no-go.

"You wear your stuff, I'll wear mine, bro. I don't do mystery clothes. If that's really a problem, maybe sched can find someone who's into your shirt fetish..... Ain't for me."

Floobs
09-05-2018, 08:24 PM
Isn’t that the same CA that made him wear a shirt he brought for the FO?

Oh man, you can't just leave the story at that.

Arado 234
09-05-2018, 08:30 PM
Yeah.

A few are out there.

But hdg bug? Not that big a deal in my book.....

Much bigger fish to fry.

Thank God it wasn't the light switches or even worse... Guard! (<- that's Delta’s job).

I can tell ex-Marines. They monitor guard on the taxi -out. Now where on the plane is that COM2 antenna?

Arado 234
09-05-2018, 08:31 PM
Oh man, you can't just leave the story at that.

Details!

Filler. I mean drool!

R57 relay
09-06-2018, 04:44 AM
Had a captain lose his mind because I spun his speed down in moderate turbulence to .78. He was trying to avoid the old 30 in 7 issue.

I yelled at a captain after a flight because we were a life guard flight and he was flying .72 trying to get to 1000 A320 PIC. Even center *****ed at him.

But I'm sure you talked about the issues with the captain before taking action, right?

Everyone here has been a PIC and you know that not all the aholes are in the left seat. As a captain, what I don't understand is why F/Os sometimes don't give me the consideration that I give them. For example, if I turn on the anti-ice, I mention it. Not that I'm asking permission, but so that they know it's already on and if we no longer need it, they can turn it off. Same with seatbelt sign. Speed-if I'm not flying ECON, I'll mention my reasons and am open to suggestions and it might not be a good idea. But often I fly with F/Os that will fly near redline without a peep. Light chop they decide that the seat belt sign should be on and just turn it on. Sometimes certain things should be discussed.

Okay, Al what the heck is this shirt thing?

EMBFlyer
09-06-2018, 06:15 AM
Thank God it wasn't the light switches or even worse... Guard! (<- that's Delta’s job).

I can tell ex-Marines. They monitor guard on the taxi -out. Now where on the plane is that COM2 antenna?

I'm civilian and switch over to guard on the taxi-out. Once we get the exit spot, I monitor ramp at a low-volume and already have Ground up in #1 (ready for the inevitable, "22, turn left"). Once we're out of the ramp, I just flip to Guard.

Name User
09-06-2018, 07:35 AM
I go to guard at 10k because I use ops as the #2 but don't monitor. Just in case we have to call for numbers or to come back to the gate I won't be fumbling.

chrisreedrules
09-06-2018, 09:07 AM
But I'm sure you talked about the issues with the captain before taking action, right?

Everyone here has been a PIC and you know that not all the aholes are in the left seat. As a captain, what I don't understand is why F/Os sometimes don't give me the consideration that I give them. For example, if I turn on the anti-ice, I mention it. Not that I'm asking permission, but so that they know it's already on and if we no longer need it, they can turn it off. Same with seatbelt sign. Speed-if I'm not flying ECON, I'll mention my reasons and am open to suggestions and it might not be a good idea. But often I fly with F/Os that will fly near redline without a peep. Light chop they decide that the seat belt sign should be on and just turn it on. Sometimes certain things should be discussed.

Okay, Al what the heck is this shirt thing?

The best CAs and FOs I’ve flown with tend to “narrate” a lot of what they’re doing. I think it’s good practice and good CRM. Say what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. There should be no guessing.

Std Deviation
09-06-2018, 10:56 AM
The best CAs and FOs I’ve flown with tend to “narrate” a lot of what they’re doing. I think it’s good practice and good CRM. Say what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. There should be no guessing.

Bus FO. I’ll do this when outside the managed/ managed profile. “I’m descending in VS mode until 5 prior to CAMRN then I will slow to 250 so this thing doesn’t decide to do 230 in the descent. Are you okay with that?” Seems to work. Don’t want the CA going.... what is this guy doing?

Al Czervik
09-06-2018, 11:19 AM
The best CAs and FOs I’ve flown with tend to “narrate” a lot of what they’re doing. I think it’s good practice and good CRM. Say what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. There should be no guessing.

That’s cool until the guy is narrating his checklist responses.

The response is “set”

Not “white, white, green, Vnav, heading three times, you’re following me up to 10,000, wobble, wobble, ding dong, we’ll come back here and do an overweight landing on 28C, set.”

flyinawa
09-06-2018, 01:01 PM
That’s cool until the guy is narrating his checklist responses.

The response is “set”

Not “white, white, green, Vnav, heading three times, you’re following me up to 10,000, wobble, wobble, ding dong, we’ll come back here and do an overweight landing on 28C, set.”

Yep (Filler)

R57 relay
09-06-2018, 01:46 PM
That’s cool until the guy is narrating his checklist responses.

The response is “set”

Not “white, white, green, Vnav, heading three times, you’re following me up to 10,000, wobble, wobble, ding dong, we’ll come back here and do an overweight landing on 28C, set.”

Yeah, no running narration necessary. But, if you're a F/O and think it's necessary to run .81 on a 250nm mile leg, with light to moderate chop and TCU, maybe discuss it with the captain first. 😀

flyinawa
09-06-2018, 03:16 PM
Yeah, no running narration necessary. But, if you're a F/O and think it's necessary to run .81 on a 250nm mile leg, with light to moderate chop and TCU, maybe discuss it with the captain first. 😀

Also Yep (filler)

A330FoodCritic
09-06-2018, 03:45 PM
But I'm sure you talked about the issues with the captain before taking action, right?

Everyone here has been a PIC and you know that not all the aholes are in the left seat. As a captain, what I don't understand is why F/Os sometimes don't give me the consideration that I give them. For example, if I turn on the anti-ice, I mention it. Not that I'm asking permission, but so that they know it's already on and if we no longer need it, they can turn it off. Same with seatbelt sign. Speed-if I'm not flying ECON, I'll mention my reasons and am open to suggestions and it might not be a good idea. But often I fly with F/Os that will fly near redline without a peep. Light chop they decide that the seat belt sign should be on and just turn it on. Sometimes certain things should be discussed.

Okay, Al what the heck is this shirt thing?

NO,

He bragged about how he always flies fast and gets an extra sequence in to avoid one commute. It was obvious what he was doing.

Just so we are clear, I am a 1999 hire, this is the only guy I can remember who didn't slow from .81 in moderate turbulence.

Actually, I take that back, there was SR out of DCA, I flew with him all the time because 50% of the FO's refused to fly with him, he obviously thought the DC9 was an F4.

A330FoodCritic
09-06-2018, 04:47 PM
Additionally, I am talking about 2002 time frame.

chrisreedrules
09-06-2018, 05:31 PM
That’s cool until the guy is narrating his checklist responses.

The response is “set”

Not “white, white, green, Vnav, heading three times, you’re following me up to 10,000, wobble, wobble, ding dong, we’ll come back here and do an overweight landing on 28C, set.”

You know what I mean.

badflaps
09-06-2018, 05:39 PM
That’s cool until the guy is narrating his checklist responses.

The response is “set”

Not “white, white, green, Vnav, heading three times, you’re following me up to 10,000, wobble, wobble, ding dong, we’ll come back here and do an overweight landing on 28C, set.”

Probably needed to talk to each other in the AF 330 in Brazil.

ItnStln
09-06-2018, 06:04 PM
Probably needed to talk to each other in the AF 330 in Brazil.

Among other things.

Albief15
09-07-2018, 11:07 PM
I go to guard at 10k because I use ops as the #2 but don't monitor. Just in case we have to call for numbers or to come back to the gate I won't be fumbling.

A technique I used (with more frequency than I'd like to admit) is I would make the call for beacon/taxi/push on guard. :mad: I just want to make sure the other guys on the ground and within about 50 miles of the airport know I am on the way...

FOs handle the radios now and for some reason none of them seem to want to use my technique when I described how I worked the radios when I was the FO... Guess they like to be mysterious to everyone else around...

OVBIII
09-08-2018, 05:30 AM
A technique I used (with more frequency than I'd like to admit) is I would make the call for beacon/taxi/push on guard. :mad: I just want to make sure the other guys on the ground and within about 50 miles of the airport know I am on the way...

FOs handle the radios now and for some reason none of them seem to want to use my technique when I described how I worked the radios when I was the FO... Guess they like to be mysterious to everyone else around...

That’s a very sound technique. I like to make PA announcements on GRD just to ensure other pilots know to keep their seatbelts fastened. It’s a technique but not procedure......yet!

Thedude
09-08-2018, 03:50 PM
A technique I used (with more frequency than I'd like to admit) is I would make the call for beacon/taxi/push on guard. :mad: I just want to make sure the other guys on the ground and within about 50 miles of the airport know I am on the way...

FOs handle the radios now and for some reason none of them seem to want to use my technique when I described how I worked the radios when I was the FO... Guess they like to be mysterious to everyone else around...

Plz tell me you Fedex boys dont call it "the jet".

sailingfun
09-08-2018, 05:04 PM
4 out of 11 guys. 36%
hoping things change

4 out of 11? You might want to glance in the mirror.

Al Czervik
09-08-2018, 06:23 PM
4 out of 11? You might want to glance in the mirror.

Had better luck since. Just a different culture. I imagine it’s like a NWA flying in a DL base. Things are a little more uptight.

tomgoodman
09-08-2018, 07:35 PM
Plz tell me you Fedex boys dont call it "the jet".

None of our business what they call it. :p

https://cdn.drawception.com/images/panels/2017/1-17/ROkqkh6pPe-4.png

PRS Guitars
09-08-2018, 09:24 PM
Plz tell me you Fedex boys dont call it "the jet".

Why does this bother you? It is in fact a jet, right? Jet is quicker to say than aircraft, or airplane. It’s an Air Force thing, just be glad we’re not saying container, deceased insects, RMO’s, so to speak, Sh!t Hot, singing offensive songs, pointing with our elbows, and a million other little cultural tidbits (all of the above , fighter pilot centric). Maybe some guys do talk like that, I hope not, it’s best left for a squadron bar.

I actually do try not to say it, because I’ve learned how some civilian pilots cringe at it, but I do call it a jet or “the jet” from time to time, because I used that term for 12 years. Im not being malicious towards you...:eek:

R57 relay
09-09-2018, 11:43 AM
4 out of 11? You might want to glance in the mirror.

Naw, I’ve flown with Al, he’s a good one.

We’re still in that culture melding mode.

R57 relay
09-09-2018, 11:48 AM
Why does this bother you? It is in fact a jet, right? Jet is quicker to say than aircraft, or airplane. It’s an Air Force thing, just be glad we’re not saying container, deceased insects, RMO’s, so to speak, Sh!t Hot, singing offensive songs, pointing with our elbows, and a million other little cultural tidbits (all of the above , fighter pilot centric). Maybe some guys do talk like that, I hope not, it’s best left for a squadron bar.

I actually do try not to say it, because I’ve learned how some civilian pilots cringe at it, but I do call it a jet or “the jet” from time to time, because I used that term for 12 years. Im not being malicious towards you...:eek:


What did the Air Force pilots say if they were walking out to a C-130?;)

Funny when words bug people. He’s the one I don’t like-Tarmac.

Tar·mac
ˈtärˌmak/Submit
nountrademark in UK
material used for surfacing roads or other outdoor areas, consisting of crushed rock mixed with tar.

I’ve been on concrete, asphalt and grass, but never tarmac...with airplanes.

Adlerdriver
09-09-2018, 02:02 PM
I go to guard at 10k because I use ops as the #2 but don't monitor. Just in case we have to call for numbers or to come back to the gate I won't be fumbling. So, for the first 10K of every flight you give yourself a personal waiver from the FAA requirement to monitor guard because it's really that difficult to leave ops on the flip in #2?

Name User
09-09-2018, 02:45 PM
So, for the first 10K of every flight you give yourself a personal waiver from the FAA requirement to monitor guard because it's really that difficult to leave ops on the flip in #2?

Eye roll

Aka

:rolleyes:

Adlerdriver
09-09-2018, 02:54 PM
Eye roll

Aka

:rolleyes:what a highly competent pro. :rolleyes:
What other regs do you ignore for personal convenience?

DarinFred
09-09-2018, 03:26 PM
Adler,

What’s the exact Federal Regulation that you are referencing?

Arado 234
09-09-2018, 03:50 PM
How many days is guard school in ATL? Maybe we should start with DL +1?

Adlerdriver
09-09-2018, 04:21 PM
Adler,

What’s the exact Federal Regulation that you are referencing?
These: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/fdc_notams/pdf/FDC%20NOTAMS%204-4386%20and%204-0811.pdf

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/anconf12/Document%20Archive/AN10_V2_cons%5B1%5D.pdf (Pg 5-13)


If one is really that overwhelmed with the use of dual VHF radios during ground ops and the first 10K of flight, I would suggest that person is exactly the type of pilot who SHOULD be monitoring guard.

Name User
09-09-2018, 06:43 PM
These: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/us_restrictions/fdc_notams/pdf/FDC%20NOTAMS%204-4386%20and%204-0811.pdf

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/anconf12/Document%20Archive/AN10_V2_cons%5B1%5D.pdf (Pg 5-13)


If one is really that overwhelmed with the use of dual VHF radios during ground ops and the first 10K of flight, I would suggest that person is exactly the type of pilot who SHOULD be monitoring guard.

Yeah man, definitely not listening on guard below 10k. Waaaay too many cats purring, dogs barking, PA announcements and "you're on guarrrrd" party fests that impact my ability to safely listen to ATC instructions.

Adlerdriver
09-09-2018, 06:56 PM
Yeah man, definitely not listening on guard below 10k. Waaaay too many cats purring, dogs barking, PA announcements and "you're on guarrrrd" party fests that impact my ability to safely listen to ATC instructions.
A man's gotta know hit limitations. :cool:

Arado 234
09-09-2018, 08:46 PM
Anybody here who's listening on guard on their days off? Or while driving? Way over-rated I think.

flyinawa
09-09-2018, 08:54 PM
Eye roll

Aka

:rolleyes:

I second that emotion.

Former military guys who think AA is still the military....

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/e/e9/Nelson_Ha-Ha.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121205194057

crewdawg
09-10-2018, 03:22 AM
Had better luck since. Just a different culture. I imagine it’s like a NWA flying in a DL base. Things are a little more uptight.

Ehh, I fly with LOTS of fNWA guys in my base and I don't find them and more or less uptight that the fDAL guys. Minus the occasional fNWA guy going on about how much better NWA did things, they're all pretty chill. In my short time at AAL, I thought the crews were pretty chill as well. We did have guys stroll into our AAL indoc class (when instructors weren't around) and tell us to go somewhere else ASAP. I assume you have those types everywhere.

How many days is guard school in ATL?

It's pretty much covered every day in indoc, then again every QCQ...

thrust
09-10-2018, 05:09 AM
In my short time at AAL, I thought the crews were pretty chill as well. We did have guys stroll into our AAL indoc class (when instructors weren't around) and tell us to go somewhere else ASAP. I assume you have those types everywhere.


Completed Indoc at AA relatively recently. Didn’t see/hear anyone tell anyone to go elsewhere ASAP. Haven’t seen any bitterness or toxicity from any AA pilots... yet. I’m sure they’re out there. Not having access to C+R might be a big reason.

Slowmover
09-10-2018, 05:40 AM
What did the Air Force pilots say if they were walking out to a C-130?;)

We called it a jet too because, hey, it's a jet engine too!

Adlerdriver
09-10-2018, 06:09 AM
I second that emotion.

Former military guys who think AA is still the military....
:confused: How does someone get from proper radio use to mil-civ headbutting? My current employer, former legacy and ACMI company all required us to monitor guard which complies with FAA directives as well as ICAO recommendations. Don't run into too many pilots from any background here who don't comply or appear to be overwhelmed by a little volume control if some idiot starts up on guard.
If you don't want to comply, then don't. Just don't come on here and act like its optional and those of us who choose to are the problem.

AwkwardTurtle
09-10-2018, 08:33 AM
:confused: How does someone get from proper radio use to mil-civ headbutting?

Irony being the thread that’s trying to convey the lack of toxic environment at AA.

DarinFred
09-10-2018, 09:00 AM
I think Adler flew Eagles. I bet he still goes by his callsign.

flyinawa
09-10-2018, 11:58 AM
:confused: How does someone get from proper radio use to mil-civ headbutting? My current employer, former legacy and ACMI company all required us to monitor guard which complies with FAA directives as well as ICAO recommendations. Don't run into too many pilots from any background here who don't comply or appear to be overwhelmed by a little volume control if some idiot starts up on guard.
If you don't want to comply, then don't. Just don't come on here and act like its optional and those of us who choose to are the problem.

My previous FOMs all used to recommend monitoring guard above FL180. I'm well aware the current AA FM mandate states "Whenever radio availability permits, maintain an emergency frequency listening watch on 121.5 MHz". I'm inclined to think listening to Ground on #1 is FAR more important than ANYTHING you might receive on the #2 radio when taxiing out. My experience leads me to believe there is literally nothing on guard below 10K that concerns a flight crew more than flying and following ATC instructions...

But, you may have different experiences that lead you down a different road. After thinking about it, who am I to say you aren't doing the right thing. "When radio availability permits" is gray. We could both make a strong case that we're complying with both the letter, AND the intent of the rule. My apologies for the wise cracking response. Safe travels.

send a check
09-10-2018, 12:01 PM
5.2.2.1.1.1 Aircraft on long over-water flights, or on flights over designated areas over which the carriage of an emergency locator transmitter (ELT) is required, shall continuously guard the VHF emergency frequency 121.5 MHz, except for those periods when aircraft are carrying out communications on other VHF channels or when airborne equipment limitations or cockpit duties do not permit simultaneous guarding of two channels.

The OR statement at the end of 5.2.2.1.1.1 (in my simple interruption) would seem to give you the latitude to not monitor Guard at ALL times. “Or cockpit duties do not permit simultaneous guarding of two channels”.

Or bozos saying “gggggguuuuaarrrrddd”. “Your on guard”. “Guuuuuuuaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrdddddddddddd“.

sherpster
09-10-2018, 12:06 PM
didnt read the whole thread but it is a notam still to monitor 121.5

FDC 4/4386 - SPECIAL NOTICE...
NATIONAL AIRSPACE SYSTEM INTERCEPT PROCEDURES. AVIATORS SHALL REVIEW THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION AERONAUTICAL INFORMATION MANUAL (AIM) FOR INTERCEPTION PROCEDURES, CHAPTER 5, SECTION 6, PARAGRAPH 5-6-2. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATING IN UNITED STATES NATIONAL AIRSPACE, IF CAPABLE, SHALL MAINTAIN A LISTENING WATCH ON VHF GUARD
121.5 OR UHF 243.0. IF AN AIRCRAFT IS INTERCEPTED BY U.S. MILITARY AIRCRAFT AND FLARES ARE DISPENSED, THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURES ARE TO BE FOLLOWED: FOLLOW THE INTERCEPT'S VISUAL SIGNALS, CONTACT AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL IMMEDIATELY ON THE LOCAL FREQUENCY OR ON VHF GUARD 121.5 OR UHF GUARD 243.0, AND COMPLY WITH THE INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY THE INTERCEPTING AIRCRAFT INCLUDING VISUAL SIGNALS IF UNABLE RADIO CONTACT. BE ADVISED THAT NONCOMPLIANCE MAY RESULT IN THE USE OF FORCE. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 19 MAY 14:12 2004

Name User
09-10-2018, 07:05 PM
That NOTAM is stupid because anytime you go to ops airborne or to get the ATIS or whatever you are in violation. Any aircraft with two comm radios fits their definition of "capable". Any time you turn the volume down to avoid guard partys you are now in violation, something even Mr by-the-book Adler seems to recommend.

A better word to use would've been "if able".

There is a huge difference I notice between mil and civ pilots. Mil are great at operating within the rules and guidelines of the FOM but tend to be very inflexible. The civ guys tend to see the forest thru the trees and comply more "in good faith" with the rule book.

Except for the Army helo guys. They are cool.

sherpster
09-11-2018, 02:43 AM
In full disclosure, I turn guard waaay down so I dont miss legit calls from ATC. Too much damn chatter on guard. Its a joke requirement because of all the guard idiots screwing around. Not even sure what this thread was about orginally.

TCASTESTOK
09-11-2018, 04:50 AM
Out of curiosity if you end up flying with a really bad CA, is there any professional way to call them out? Or are your only two options to walk off the flight at the gate or put up with their BS the whole flight?
Do Not Pair is the best option. HOWEVER if you see something really egregious, unsafe, or the CA is just not doing well in terms of CRM and maintaining a professional environment, your best recourse is to go to Pro Stands, or maybe your domicile ACP or CP.

TCASTESTOK
09-11-2018, 04:53 AM
In full disclosure, I turn guard waaay down so I dont miss legit calls from ATC. Too much damn chatter on guard. Its a joke requirement because of all the guard idiots screwing around. Not even sure what this thread was about orginally.
Too bad you can't hear all that chatter on guard in the lower altitudes. (sfc - 7,000). As you get higher you have a larger area of radio reception. Imagine if all the weekend warriors in their Cessnas heard all the shenanigans on guard.

swaayze
09-11-2018, 07:52 AM
“The Jet”

First, yes, capitalize it.

Second, who cares? Old habit for many I’m sure. Reminds me of when I was a teenaged private pilot. I thought using “say again” in everyday language was cool so I trained myself to do it. Now I cannot stop myself, regardless of how cool it really is(n't).

Kapitanleutnant
09-11-2018, 09:06 PM
This thread caught my eye as the title of this thread... these very words... were the reason I retired early 10 years ago and went overseas to fly. Keeping in touch with some AA buds over the years, they've told me the toxic environment hasn't left the corporate culture at all.

Toughest call I ever had to make in my life that day in 2008 but I have absolutely no regrets. 81 countries in my passport and seen things I'd have only ever seen in National Geographic... both good and bad.

Wish my fellow AAer's all the best and keep striving for the greatest contract in the biz! With the beginning of the shortage, retirements and the like, it's your time!!

Kap

jcountry
09-15-2018, 04:33 AM
That’s cool until the guy is narrating his checklist responses.

The response is “set”

Not “white, white, green, Vnav, heading three times, you’re following me up to 10,000, wobble, wobble, ding dong, we’ll come back here and do an overweight landing on 28C, set.”

Did some damned retard actually say that?

That would just look super at an NTSB hearing

EMBFlyer
09-15-2018, 06:45 AM
Did some damned retard actually say that?

That would just look super at an NTSB hearing

Some say similar things to that. Checklist standardization here is VERY much lacking. On my fleet, when I call "MCP?", I get anything from reading out the entire MCP to "Set" (which is the checklist response). Same with "Displays".

450knotOffice
09-15-2018, 07:13 AM
I remember that from my 737 days. On the Bus, 99.5% of the folks I’ve flown with call for and read or respond to the checklist perfectly - to the word.

Different culture on that fleet. The checklist is dirt simple, short, and to the point. The 737 checklist was a mess when I flew it.

tomgoodman
09-15-2018, 07:25 AM
On my fleet, when I call "MCP?", I get anything from reading out the entire MCP to "Set" (which is the checklist response).

I would respond with everything I could remember from ground school. That took less time than saying “Set”. :p

Al Czervik
09-15-2018, 12:01 PM
Did some damned retard actually say that?

That’s the unstandard standard

PRS Guitars
09-15-2018, 01:52 PM
That’s the unstandard standard

Get back to the Bus brother, everyone sticks to the script.

C130driver
09-16-2018, 08:17 AM
This thread caught my eye as the title of this thread... these very words... were the reason I retired early 10 years ago and went overseas to fly. Keeping in touch with some AA buds over the years, they've told me the toxic environment hasn't left the corporate culture at all.

Toughest call I ever had to make in my life that day in 2008 but I have absolutely no regrets. 81 countries in my passport and seen things I'd have only ever seen in National Geographic... both good and bad.

Wish my fellow AAer's all the best and keep striving for the greatest contract in the biz! With the beginning of the shortage, retirements and the like, it's your time!!

Kap

Where did you end up? EK?

TCASTESTOK
09-16-2018, 09:55 AM
Did some damned retard actually say that?

That would just look super at an NTSB hearing


It would be even more embarrassing as an AA rep at the listening of the CVR to hear that and have to explain to the NTSB and FAA rep afterwards that..well I think this sums up what the NTSB/FAA reps answer to listening to that would be.
https://pics.me.me/thumb_what-youve-just-said-is-one-ofthemost-insanelyidiotic-thingsihaveever-heard-4092319.png

Aviatrx
09-17-2018, 09:44 AM
Not sure why anyone would have an issue of narrating what you are supposed to do and saying the correct checklist response. It is what is done at the school house and therefore FAA approved. Get over yourself and worry about doing your job to the best of your abilities. I think some of this toxic culture is just bad attitudes. Lighten up and try to be safe, have fun, and learn something

R57 relay
09-17-2018, 10:46 AM
Not sure why anyone would have an issue of narrating what you are supposed to do and saying the correct checklist response. It is what is done at the school house and therefore FAA approved. Get over yourself and worry about doing your job to the best of your abilities. I think some of this toxic culture is just bad attitudes. Lighten up and try to be safe, have fun, and learn something

I think there is a fine line. Letting the other pilot know the picture is good, saying "I'm now scratching my nose" makes the other pilot tune out.

Dobbs18
09-17-2018, 11:18 AM
I think there is a fine line. Letting the other pilot know the picture is good, saying "I'm now scratching my nose" makes the other pilot tune out.

Agreed. As an FO I read the checklist and I am expecting the correct response,when the guy starts blabbering on about all the stuff he is suppose to do in his flow it’s just annoying, to me anyways. I don’t make a big deal about it though, and thankfully on my fleet 95% do it the right way. If he/she does all that extra talking and still doesn’t say the correct response I do read that checklist item again though...

Saabs
09-17-2018, 12:22 PM
Fuel : 34.5 required, 34.7 on board
Captain : we’ve got enough gas 🙄

R57 relay
09-17-2018, 05:10 PM
Fuel : 34.5 required, 34.7 on board
Captain : we’ve got enough gas 🙄

These folks must not have gone through CLT AB training. You get the switch for incorrect/extra words!:)

EMBFlyer
09-17-2018, 06:19 PM
These folks must not have gone through CLT AB training. You get the switch for incorrect/extra words!:)

No kidding! It's where I first learned the phrase "comfort calls" and they were STRICTLY forbidden.

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 04:17 AM
Yep. I always use the exact verbiage. Flying with new guys all the time it helps them out.

And stop saying ground contact. I don’t care.

jhondoe
09-18-2018, 04:21 AM
So, on the topic of non standard verbiage, do you guys get all wrapped around the axle if the CA says "chop 1 and 2"? Do you sit there, twitching, until he or she says, "shutdown 1 and 2"?

Route66
09-18-2018, 04:24 AM
Yep. I always use the exact verbiage. Flying with new guys all the time it helps them out.

And stop saying ground contact. I don’t care.

Ground contact is not something I'd get wrapped around the axle about.

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 04:26 AM
Ground contact is not something I'd get wrapped around the axle about.



I don’t care what you’d get wrapped up about.

Do your job the way they pay you to do your job.

Aviatrx
09-18-2018, 04:38 AM
When it is your turn to be Captain, you can run your cockpit with minimal CRM all you like. Until then, try to relax and learn. This is far from a negative way to run the flight deck and is probably done with safety in mind and so both pilots are paying attention

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 04:49 AM
When it is your turn to be Captain, you can run your cockpit with minimal CRM all you like. Until then, try to relax and learn. This is far from a negative way to run the flight deck and is probably done with safety in mind and so both pilots are paying attention



No. Captains should do things the way they are supposed to be done. And being unstandard is a big deal.

Saabs
09-18-2018, 05:30 AM
I don’t care what you’d get wrapped up about.

Do your job the way they pay you to do your job.

What’s ground contact? Like instead of runway in sight?

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 05:32 AM
What’s ground contact? Like instead of runway in sight?



A non-standard call some guys make when you’re coming out of the bottom of the clouds and start to see the ground below you don’t have the lights/runway in sight.

tomgoodman
09-18-2018, 05:56 AM
What’s ground contact? Like instead of runway in sight?

No, it’s the ILS callout when you feel a huge impact, hear a loud noise, and notice that the VSI has gone to zero. :p

Saabs
09-18-2018, 07:35 AM
A non-standard call some guys make when you’re coming out of the bottom of the clouds and start to see the ground below you don’t have the lights/runway in sight.
Never heard that one. You’re the captain do you tell them to use standard call outs?

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 08:48 AM
Never heard that one. You’re the captain do you tell them to use standard call outs?



I throw things at them until they get it right.

payingdues
09-18-2018, 08:58 AM
A non-standard call some guys make when you’re coming out of the bottom of the clouds and start to see the ground below you don’t have the lights/runway in sight.


I bet youre so much fun to fly with! Lol who cares.

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 09:04 AM
I bet youre so much fun to fly with! Lol who cares.



The training department cares. Do your job right. This isn’t some regional where it’s hip and cool to be non-standard.

Hotel Pen
09-18-2018, 09:41 AM
Whats wrong with saying ground contact? It lets the pilot flying know that the aircraft is about to break out of the cloud deck.

payingdues
09-18-2018, 10:08 AM
The training department cares. Do your job right. This isn’t some regional where it’s hip and cool to be non-standard.

Hahah right on bro. Im sure youre a shining beacon in the world of standardization. All those damn regional kids being non standard and stuff! Those idiots...its a miracle they make it 5 legs a day.

Saabs
09-18-2018, 10:24 AM
Whats wrong with saying ground contact? It lets the pilot flying know that the aircraft is about to break out of the cloud deck.

It’s not a callout. Being by the book is too easy not to do it.

Al Czervik
09-18-2018, 10:50 AM
I like the guys that are arguing against SOP. Brilliant.

payingdues
09-18-2018, 11:18 AM
I like the guys that are arguing against SOP. Brilliant.

Not arguing against SOP. Saying if somebody says “ground contact” whateverrrr. They didnt say “look theres a chilis” The SOPs cant cover every beckoning event that happens. Relax. MainlineAF just rags on everyone all the time...look at his posts. So he gets a little trolling. Id choose to fly with a crew that knows whats going on and is relaxed while doing SOP and enjoying themselves than a group of verbage Nazis. To each his own!

A330FoodCritic
09-18-2018, 12:15 PM
Whats wrong with saying ground contact? It lets the pilot flying know that the aircraft is about to break out of the cloud deck.

I have never heard that in the simulator.

mainlineAF
09-18-2018, 02:17 PM
Whats wrong with saying ground contact? It lets the pilot flying know that the aircraft is about to break out of the cloud deck.


Just because you see the ground beneath you doesn’t mean you’ll see the approach lights/runway.

We have 14,000 pilots. If everyone does their own thing that’s not good.

EMBFlyer
09-18-2018, 02:28 PM
I like the guys that are arguing against SOP. Brilliant.

Kind of like the guys saying the new non-normal methodology is dangerous.

bigscrillywilli
09-18-2018, 04:20 PM
Flows are really going to get people up in arms.......even though the regionals have it.

Seems to be a recurring theme!

R57 relay
09-18-2018, 04:58 PM
Looks like we need more switches in the simulators!:D

A lot of us thought the exact verbiage regime was over the top, but we came to see that it works really well. You don't spend as much time saying "huh, what did you say?" Anyone can hop in the seat beside the other guy and know what to expect.

I recently flew with a guy that narrated about everything. It was irritating to me, but I didn't say anything as we are, as I said before, still melding cultures. He did a good job, just a different background and trained on the Airbus in a different place. Again, a fine line.

Name User
09-18-2018, 05:53 PM
The AA culture is with read/do checklists. It's how it's been done for many years. Everyone normally does their own sort of flow and then the checklist as you learn what's on it but the formalized triggers/flows is something new. The Airbus was hella easy to operate compared to the MD80 so I can understand why they did what they did for so long.

I also agree with nonstandard callouts, of which "ground contact" is one.

Albief15
09-18-2018, 11:54 PM
Okay...true confession time...

Flying all week with a ROCK SOLID FO. Returning into Guangzhou (CAN) on a very rare night with excellent visibility (two days before latest typhoon hit). I break sterile...bad on me...as we fly past the Canton tower and some incredible high rises and say "peek right..."

Her reaction--she stares STRAIGHT ahead and doesn't acknowledge my words. (Now I'm thinking--okay--does she think I'm an ass for breaking sterile? Does she think I'm an idiot for telling her to do something non standard while she is obviously hand flying the approach?..)

I quietly think to myself perhaps I have irked her, even though she's been a very pleasant coworker all week. Hmmm. Then I see she is flying a perfect ILS....exactly 1 dot RIGHT of course. Since there is a heavy 5 miles in front of us, she has assumed my "peak right" was "CHEAT right...", which might have made sense had we thought wake turbulence would somehow be a factor.

My lesson learned...fighter pilot 101...never pass up the opportunity to S-T-F-U. Subsequent legs had us going out of PEK, and there are some sites to the north kinda cool. I discussed the landmarks on the ground, but didn't say a word airborne on climbout. Fool me once...

Point is I was in a benign environment with a super FO with zero interpersonal friction between us, and a non-standard comment did nothing but suck the SA out of her head and then her actions subsequently confused me. 100% my fault. And a reminder why sterile and standard are the smart safe way to run ops...

Al Czervik
09-19-2018, 03:24 AM
Okay...true confession time...

Flying all week with a ROCK SOLID FO. Returning into Guangzhou (CAN) on a very rare night with excellent visibility (two days before latest typhoon hit). I break sterile...bad on me...as we fly past the Canton tower and some incredible high rises and say "peek right..."

Her reaction--she stares STRAIGHT ahead and doesn't acknowledge my words. (Now I'm thinking--okay--does she think I'm an ass for breaking sterile? Does she think I'm an idiot for telling her to do something non standard while she is obviously hand flying the approach?..)

I quietly think to myself perhaps I have irked her, even though she's been a very pleasant coworker all week. Hmmm. Then I see she is flying a perfect ILS....exactly 1 dot RIGHT of course. Since there is a heavy 5 miles in front of us, she has assumed my "peak right" was "CHEAT right...", which might have made sense had we thought wake turbulence would somehow be a factor.

My lesson learned...fighter pilot 101...never pass up the opportunity to S-T-F-U. Subsequent legs had us going out of PEK, and there are some sites to the north kinda cool. I discussed the landmarks on the ground, but didn't say a word airborne on climbout. Fool me once...

Point is I was in a benign environment with a super FO with zero interpersonal friction between us, and a non-standard comment did nothing but suck the SA out of her head and then her actions subsequently confused me. 100% my fault. And a reminder why sterile and standard are the smart safe way to run ops...

Exactly. This is why.

80ktsClamp
09-19-2018, 05:26 AM
This thread makes me so glad I upgraded.... and am at Deltoid land.

Still haven’t figured out what carrier it is always meowing on guard on the east coast, but I don’t say anything to them because they don’t deserve the attention!

Mink
09-19-2018, 09:50 AM
Didn’t somebody say something about toxic culture?:rolleyes:

Never mind.

mainlineAF
09-19-2018, 11:46 AM
This thread makes me so glad I upgraded.... and am at Deltoid land.

Still haven’t figured out what carrier it is always meowing on guard on the east coast, but I don’t say anything to them because they don’t deserve the attention!



We’re all very happy for you.

Buzzlightyear
09-19-2018, 12:07 PM
We’re all very happy for you.

Why are people this way. Not a question b/c I really don’t care to see his answer. It’s more rhetorical.

Name User
09-19-2018, 05:14 PM
Why are people this way. Not a question b/c I really don’t care to see his answer. It’s more rhetorical.

Delta guys come into every thread to humble brag. It gets old. I thought the same thing. I guess it's not enough that they stay in their own circle jerk.

Buzzlightyear
09-19-2018, 06:28 PM
Didn’t see anything he said as bragging. There’s no need for pettiness or childish taunts. But it usually seems to go there unfortunately.

Name User
09-19-2018, 10:03 PM
Didn’t see anything he said as bragging. There’s no need for pettiness or childish taunts. But it usually seems to go there unfortunately.

He's glad he's at Delta...not AA...you don't see the dickishness in his post?

Reminds me of a classmate from college I used to know. Ran into him on a bus and hadn't seen him in a while. He had been working at an RJ operator for many years and was turned down by LUS around the time of the merger when I was hired. "Hey where are you now?!?" "I'm at Delta! Soooo happy US Airways turned me down! Dodged that bullet!" <- his exact words

Well F-you buddy! Why the need to dig? I don't get it, they're all like that over there. Even the guys who have sat up front with me have bragged about their profit sharing checks. It's like they have a lack of self confidence and need to constantly remind themselves they are awesome.

80ktsClamp
09-20-2018, 03:07 AM
....they're all like that over there...

You might want to look up the meaning of “projecting.” :rolleyes:

Al Czervik
09-20-2018, 03:24 AM
You might want to look up the meaning of “projecting.” :rolleyes:

Go back to the valley, man ;)

Floobs
09-20-2018, 07:13 AM
I'm glad I'm not at Delta or United. They both require the hat to be worn and the Blazer during international ops.

tomgoodman
09-20-2018, 07:52 AM
Didn’t see anything he said as bragging.

Failure to whine is “bragging by omission”. :D

PRS Guitars
09-20-2018, 08:57 AM
I'm glad I'm not at Delta or United. They both require the hat to be worn and the Blazer during international ops.

But do they require that pilots wear a reflective vest during domestic walk arounds?:confused:

mainlineAF
09-20-2018, 09:57 AM
You might want to look up the meaning of “projecting.” :rolleyes:



No one cares.

jcountry
09-20-2018, 09:58 AM
But do they require that pilots wear a reflective vest during domestic walk arounds?:confused:

I am a fan of that.

The ramp is a dangerous place. Especially in bad wx.

Black night plus black uniform-what could go wrong?

PHL capt I flew with was run over by a tug. Injured badly and out for about a year. I think his situation was the impetus for vests.

Saabs
09-20-2018, 01:37 PM
No one cares.

I’m sure you’re a peach in the cockpit. Do your FO’s ever say anything to you?

mainlineAF
09-20-2018, 01:39 PM
I’m sure you’re a peach in the cockpit. Do your FO’s ever say anything to you?



You’ve changed since you went to the dark side.

EMBFlyer
09-21-2018, 02:26 AM
I'm glad I'm not at Delta or United. They both require the hat to be worn and the Blazer during international ops.

You know AA has to wear the coat for international ops, too, right?

Dolphinflyer
09-21-2018, 06:58 AM
I'm glad I'm not at Delta or United. They both require the hat to be worn and the Blazer during international ops.


I remember being a little younger and "too kool for skool" on working a LAA international flight where the coat (as is now) and hat was required.

95F with 95% stinking humidity in August at my base, It's a hot summer, I'm a rebel, no stinking coat or hat for me.

After arriving, can't tell you how much I enjoyed the 25 minute wait outside at our normal pick up area with the 28F temp in snow flurries. The 20 mph was also a plus. ;)

80ktsClamp
09-21-2018, 10:28 AM
Delta doesn’t have to wear the blazer on international ops. We did just pick up the reflective vest requirement... they stay with the airplane.

Sliceback
09-21-2018, 01:08 PM
You know AA has to wear the coat for international ops, too, right?

Isn’t it regional, and seasonal, dependent?

And there’s no ‘coat police’ a la DL’s hat police.

Name User
09-21-2018, 01:35 PM
Isn’t it regional, and seasonal, dependent?

And there’s no ‘coat police’ a la DL’s hat police.

Amazingly enough I had a CA chew me out in front of a chief for not wearing my jacket. DFW, we had just come from FL where it was 85*+ and it was about the same in Dallas.

Al Czervik
09-21-2018, 01:38 PM
Delta doesn’t have to wear the blazer on international ops. We did just pick up the reflective vest requirement... they stay with the airplane...........

mainlineAF
09-21-2018, 02:16 PM
Amazingly enough I had a CA chew me out in front of a chief for not wearing my jacket. DFW, we had just come from FL where it was 85*+ and it was about the same in Dallas.



I would have lost my mind if I were you.

450knotOffice
09-21-2018, 03:44 PM
Amazingly enough I had a CA chew me out in front of a chief for not wearing my jacket. DFW, we had just come from FL where it was 85*+ and it was about the same in Dallas.

Another reason why I generally loath those DFW wanna-be cowboys. Biggest asshats in the whole system in that base.

And ya know what? I generally wear either a hat, OR a jacket, or both if it’s winter and cold. But I literally couldn’t care any less if my captains wear a hat or a jacket or none of the above. I mean really, who cares enough to lecture another pilot about this trivial crap?

Some people just have a compelling need to be hall monitors I guess.

nimslow
09-21-2018, 05:27 PM
Another reason why I generally loath those DFW wanna-be cowboys. Biggest asshats in the whole system in that base.

And ya know what? I generally wear either a hat, OR a jacket, or both if it’s winter and cold. But I literally couldn’t care any less if my captains wear a hat or a jacket or none of the above. I mean really, who cares enough to lecture another pilot about this trivial crap?

Some people just have a compelling need to be hall monitors I guess.

I spent several years as an FO in DFW (as well as a couple of other bases) and only managed to find one guy I didn't enjoy flying with. No more "asshats" in DFW than anywhere else.

Name User
09-21-2018, 05:54 PM
Another reason why I generally loath those DFW wanna-be cowboys. Biggest asshats in the whole system in that base.

And ya know what? I generally wear either a hat, OR a jacket, or both if it’s winter and cold. But I literally couldn’t care any less if my captains wear a hat or a jacket or none of the above. I mean really, who cares enough to lecture another pilot about this trivial crap?

Some people just have a compelling need to be hall monitors I guess.
This guy was actually fTWA and was a former check airman there living in the past. He still wore his CKA wings even.

Almost all fTWA guys are like the LUS guys though and super cool and the nAAtives while a little cockier are still good to work with.

EMBFlyer
09-22-2018, 01:13 PM
Isn’t it regional, and seasonal, dependent?

And there’s no ‘coat police’ a la DL’s hat police.

It's theatre dependent. Europe and Asia, but it's required year-round.

TQ Nola
09-22-2018, 03:35 PM
This guy was actually fTWA and was a former check airman there living in the past. He still wore his CKA wings even.

Almost all fTWA guys are like the LUS guys though and super cool and the nAAtives while a little cockier are still good to work with.

I think I flew with 4 ex-TWAer Captains while I was in Miami 5-15 years ago. To a man nice guys.

Al Czervik
09-22-2018, 05:25 PM
I think I flew with 4 ex-TWAer Captains while I was in Miami 5-15 years ago. To a man nice guys.

Love the TWA guys and gals!

Pilot X
09-22-2018, 06:55 PM
It's theatre dependent. Europe and Asia, but it's required year-round.

Summertime Europe I rarely saw jackets.... it gets pretty hot in most of the LUS destinations at least

80ktsClamp
09-22-2018, 11:16 PM
..........

Like Dwight Schrute, I’m here to entertain and to inform.


Also annoy. :D

mainlineAF
09-23-2018, 06:06 AM
Like Dwight Schrute, I’m here to entertain and to inform.





Also annoy. :D



Give it a rest dude.

EMBFlyer
09-23-2018, 09:04 AM
Summertime Europe I rarely saw jackets.... it gets pretty hot in most of the LUS destinations at least

FM Part I: 4.3.1.D

I don't have a specific section for the new, soon to be mocked, criticized and *****ed because it's different from the old, FOM.

Pilot X
09-23-2018, 09:56 AM
Not saying it’s not required, but no one complied. :D

Hotel Pen
09-23-2018, 04:48 PM
To all the fellow aviators out there on this web board that think 'ground contact' is a stupid non-SOP thing to say... I just wanna check and make sure that none of you guys ever utter a single world during sterile from take off up to 10,000 ft. just for the sake of consistency. Saabs? yes or no?

Saabs
09-23-2018, 07:39 PM
To all the fellow aviators out there on this web board that think 'ground contact' is a stupid non-SOP thing to say... I just wanna check and make sure that none of you guys ever utter a single world during sterile from take off up to 10,000 ft. just for the sake of consistency. Saabs? yes or no?

I don’t personally. Some guys chat under 10k but I never say anything, I just don’t respond.

A330FoodCritic
09-24-2018, 02:35 AM
To all the fellow aviators out there on this web board that think 'ground contact' is a stupid non-SOP thing to say... I just wanna check and make sure that none of you guys ever utter a single world during sterile from take off up to 10,000 ft. just for the sake of consistency. Saabs? yes or no?

"Ground Contact" is not stupid, it is just non-standard.

tomgoodman
09-24-2018, 05:40 AM
Not saying it’s not required, but no one complied. :D

Join the circus, wear the clown suit .... or else! :D


https://s.yimg.com/aah/spicylingeriestore/ring-mistress-sexy-costume-25.png

mainlineAF
09-24-2018, 07:50 AM
To all the fellow aviators out there on this web board that think 'ground contact' is a stupid non-SOP thing to say... I just wanna check and make sure that none of you guys ever utter a single world during sterile from take off up to 10,000 ft. just for the sake of consistency. Saabs? yes or no?



There’s a difference when you’re level at 8k feet 30 miles from the airport and when you’re 2 miles from the runway and still don’t see it. But ya i don’t chat below 10 anyway.

So yea, it is stupid. And it’s non SOP. Do your job correctly.

JamesBond
09-24-2018, 11:04 AM
I'm glad I'm not at Delta or United. They both require the hat to be worn and the Blazer during international ops.
You only have to wear the jacket in the winter at DAL.

JamesBond
09-24-2018, 11:04 AM
But do they require that pilots wear a reflective vest during domestic walk arounds?:confused:Yes we now do at DAL

JamesBond
09-24-2018, 11:06 AM
..........Damn dude, chill out. He was just correcting a misconception.

aa73
09-24-2018, 12:29 PM
Actually, AA is the only airline that requires the blazer year round for Europe/Asia.

Delta does not
United does not

Next time you fly to those places you’ll notice that AA pilots are the only ones wearing it (and sweating profusely.) Back when I flew that stuff I never saw DL or UA guyswearing their blazers in the summer time, they were all in short sleeves.

Conversely, AA is also the only airline where I see some of our guys wearing the blazer even on the hottest days in Dallas, Phoenix and Miami.

It really seems like we are the most non standard when it comes to uniforms (not surprising, due to the uniform fiasco as well as this pilot group’s tendency to do their own thing.)

With Delta and United, they are all either in short sleeves or blazers, you never see a mix/match like us.

Al Czervik
09-24-2018, 12:58 PM
Damn dude, chill out. He was just correcting a misconception.

I guess that one went over your head.

Saabs
09-24-2018, 02:30 PM
I guess that one went over your head.

I picked up what you threw down

EMBFlyer
09-24-2018, 04:39 PM
Actually, AA is the only airline that requires the blazer year round for Europe/Asia.

Delta does not
United does not

Next time you fly to those places you’ll notice that AA pilots are the only ones wearing it (and sweating profusely.) Back when I flew that stuff I never saw DL or UA guyswearing their blazers in the summer time, they were all in short sleeves.

Conversely, AA is also the only airline where I see some of our guys wearing the blazer even on the hottest days in Dallas, Phoenix and Miami.

It really seems like we are the most non standard when it comes to uniforms (not surprising, due to the uniform fiasco as well as this pilot group’s tendency to do their own thing.)

With Delta and United, they are all either in short sleeves or blazers, you never see a mix/match like us.

Continental used to require jackets and hats year-round to Europe, Asia, Sao Paulo and Rio.

chrisreedrules
09-24-2018, 06:21 PM
What’s ground contact? Like instead of runway in sight?

I hear it occasionally in the regional 121 environment. I think it’s just a weird call out that someone somewhere started doing and it caught on with the ignorant.

I can’t stand it. It doesn’t make any sense. What do I care if you see the ground? Let me know if you see the lights.

aa73
09-24-2018, 06:46 PM
Honestly... I have no problem at all if someone says “ground contact.” Hey, to me I consider it extra CRM and a “nice to know, heads up” when I am on solid instruments from the pilot sitting next to me that we are just breaking out and getting close to seeing approach and/or runway lights. What’s the big deal? I’m sure there are plenty more little “nice to know” things we all utter, that we maybe don’t realize we utter, that are not explicitly defined nor included in the FOM/Part 1. But when all added up they contribute nicely to the entire CRM puzzle.

Bigger fish to fry folks. You guys are really nitpicking the small stuff here.

Saabs
09-24-2018, 07:12 PM
I hear it occasionally in the regional 121 environment. I think it’s just a weird call out that someone somewhere started doing and it caught on with the ignorant.

I can’t stand it. It doesn’t make any sense. What do I care if you see the ground? Let me know if you see the lights.

Never heard it In my three regionals I worked at

FlyyGuyy
09-24-2018, 07:33 PM
Never heard it In my three regionals I worked at

I hear it at PSA occasionally. But I used to hear it all the time at my last 135. But that operator was about as non standard as possible.

ORDinary
09-25-2018, 01:34 AM
I hear it occasionally in the regional 121 environment. I think it’s just a weird call out that someone somewhere started doing and it caught on with the ignorant.

I can’t stand it. It doesn’t make any sense. What do I care if you see the ground? Let me know if you see the lights.

It used to be in the eagle/envoy AOM as an optional callout.

mainlineAF
09-25-2018, 01:40 AM
Honestly... I have no problem at all if someone says “ground contact.” Hey, to me I consider it extra CRM and a “nice to know, heads up” when I am on solid instruments from the pilot sitting next to me that we are just breaking out and getting close to seeing approach and/or runway lights. What’s the big deal? I’m sure there are plenty more little “nice to know” things we all utter, that we maybe don’t realize we utter, that are not explicitly defined nor included in the FOM/Part 1. But when all added up they contribute nicely to the entire CRM puzzle.

Bigger fish to fry folks. You guys are really nitpicking the small stuff here.



The training department disagrees with you.

Buzzlightyear
09-25-2018, 05:13 AM
Following........just to see how far you guys can stretch this one out.

aa73
09-25-2018, 05:17 AM
The training department disagrees with you.

Wouldn’t be the first time.

This, after all, is the same training department that disagreed with me years ago over a safety issue involving a near mid-air I had on the Md80 and the use of exterior lights. You see, at AA they highly discouraged the use of wing landing lights (they are retractable and the company viewed them as an extra fuel expense when extended)... and as a result very few captains used them (the switches are on the captains side.) Well, one day coming out of Long Beach at 1500agl, we came nose to nose with a pair of T-6s joyriding below the LAX Class B, and had to do an over the top dive to avoid them. In the debrief we realized that the captain did not have his landing lights on due to above policy, and I recommended to the training department to change this policy and match what every other DC9/Md80 operator did - require the use of all exterior lights, day or night, for runway and air safety, at all times below 10,000 MsL. I was politely told to go find some traffic to play in, along with, “son, someday when you are a Captain you’ll get to make those choices.”

So, in essence, I could care less if the training department doesn’t agree with what I consider good SA.

mainlineAF
09-25-2018, 06:06 AM
Wouldn’t be the first time.

This, after all, is the same training department that disagreed with me years ago over a safety issue involving a near mid-air I had on the Md80 and the use of exterior lights. You see, at AA they highly discouraged the use of wing landing lights (they are retractable and the company viewed them as an extra fuel expense when extended)... and as a result very few captains used them (the switches are on the captains side.) Well, one day coming out of Long Beach at 1500agl, we came nose to nose with a pair of T-6s joyriding below the LAX Class B, and had to do an over the top dive to avoid them. In the debrief we realized that the captain did not have his landing lights on due to above policy, and I recommended to the training department to change this policy and match what every other DC9/Md80 operator did - require the use of all exterior lights, day or night, for runway and air safety, at all times below 10,000 MsL. I was politely told to go find some traffic to play in, along with, “son, someday when you are a Captain you’ll get to make those choices.”

So, in essence, I could care less if the training department doesn’t agree with what I consider good SA.



I hear you about the lights. That’s definitely a safety issue.

However, it could be argued that “ground contact” is actually a negative/unsafe call out. It could condition you to expect to see the approach lights when you’re not going to. Just bc you see the ground below you doesn’t mean you’re going to see the lights in front of you. That’s why we don’t make the call out.

I’ll say this as well. When you’re flying with new guys the slightest deviation from the norm can throw them off. Tread lightly my dude.

This is all from the training dept, and i agree with the methodology. I just row the boat.

aa73
09-25-2018, 06:42 AM
As do I.

But see, the lights thing was a safety issue, yet the training department ignored it. What else are they ignoring? Why is calling “ground contact” viewed as a safety issue, but the lights aren’t? Where do we draw the line and why the double standard? That’s my point.

I fly with new guys all the time....and I can assure you that there are plenty of small utterances on both sides that are not in the FOM but contribute to SA and CRM. You do them too, we all do, we just don’t realize it because we have thousands of hours of habits that have yielded an increase in safety. If a guy calls out that he sees the ground in low IMC, to me it absolutely not a detriment to safety but rather it contributes to my overall SA. It means that we are breaking out and is one more barrier we have crossed in getting to the runway...we are starting to go visual. I welcome it.

For example, I also tend to tell the PF, right after Vr and gear retraction, “your throttles.” Meaning, my hand is coming off of them and they’re all yours. Is it a required call? Nope, but it’s an SA heads up to my fellow pilot that a required changeover has happened and also eliminates an awkward moment or two where our hands might meet (insert comedian HERE. ;-)

The training department will always have fixed guidelines to which they adhere to but that should never come in the way of common sense and a little out of the box thinking that contributes to safety.

tomgoodman
09-25-2018, 08:37 AM
However, it could be argued that “ground contact” is actually a negative/unsafe call out. It could condition you to expect to see the approach lights when you’re not going to.

Similarly, F/As should never say that the galley has been fully catered. It could condition you to expect a meal when you’re not going to get one. :D

Sliceback
09-25-2018, 02:02 PM
Summertime Europe I rarely saw jackets.... it gets pretty hot in most of the LUS destinations at least

Bought tickets to Rome. All three LUS guys had jackets. July.

Name User
09-25-2018, 02:15 PM
As do I.

But see, the lights thing was a safety issue, yet the training department ignored it. What else are they ignoring? Why is calling “ground contact” viewed as a safety issue, but the lights aren’t? Where do we draw the line and why the double standard? That’s my point.

I fly with new guys all the time....and I can assure you that there are plenty of small utterances on both sides that are not in the FOM but contribute to SA and CRM. You do them too, we all do, we just don’t realize it because we have thousands of hours of habits that have yielded an increase in safety. If a guy calls out that he sees the ground in low IMC, to me it absolutely not a detriment to safety but rather it contributes to my overall SA. It means that we are breaking out and is one more barrier we have crossed in getting to the runway...we are starting to go visual. I welcome it.

For example, I also tend to tell the PF, right after Vr and gear retraction, “your throttles.” Meaning, my hand is coming off of them and they’re all yours. Is it a required call? Nope, but it’s an SA heads up to my fellow pilot that a required changeover has happened and also eliminates an awkward moment or two where our hands might meet (insert comedian HERE. ;-)

The training department will always have fixed guidelines to which they adhere to but that should never come in the way of common sense and a little out of the box thinking that contributes to safety.

I fly with guys who say "your throttles" and I have no idea why. It's such a negative callout. They are the PF's when airborne. If you get distracted for some reason and don't say it on day four of four now your PF is conditioned and questions whose they are.

Now skip to next trip, it's never mentioned, and we are left wondering the same thing.

Not a smart callout IMO. It is so widespread that I have to wonder if it was taught at one point? It most definitely is NOT a litany item and should not be stated especially in such a critical phase of flight. I would urge you to reconsider.

aa73
09-25-2018, 02:28 PM
It’s a courtesy call letting him/her know that my hand is coming off the throttles... nothing more, nothing less. To me it’s a very safe call because it results in the smooth transfer of throttle control and prevents the throttles from being unguarded, which I’ve seen happen when the PF doesn’t realize the CA has taken his hand off. (something you Bus folks don’t have to worry about.) And not one pilot has ever had an issue with it, in fact most of them say “thanks.” No different than you telling your fellow pilot “clear right” or “good start on number 1.” Or a million other things every one of you say but don’t realize it, that we could nitpick all day long, that all contribute in their own way to safety and courtesy.

If I rode in each of your jump seats I GUARANTEE I’d hear some little utterances during sterile not found in the FOM, but that you practice each and every flight through thousands of hours, that are done in the name of safety and courtesy to your fellow pilot.

Subpilot
09-25-2018, 03:16 PM
Doesn’t the hand come off the thrust lever at V1?

aa73
09-25-2018, 03:27 PM
Yes, from the tops of the throttles to the base.

Subpilot
09-25-2018, 03:37 PM
Yes, from the tops of the throttles to the base.

Got it, i am not familiar with all the fleets procedures. Thanks

mainlineAF
09-25-2018, 04:23 PM
I fly with guys who say "your throttles" and I have no idea why. It's such a negative callout. They are the PF's when airborne. If you get distracted for some reason and don't say it on day four of four now your PF is conditioned and questions whose they are.

Now skip to next trip, it's never mentioned, and we are left wondering the same thing.

Not a smart callout IMO. It is so widespread that I have to wonder if it was taught at one point? It most definitely is NOT a litany item and should not be stated especially in such a critical phase of flight. I would urge you to reconsider.



100% agree. I’m no 737 guy but after v1 on every other airplane there’s no question who has the throttles, and that’s the PF.

One thing i try really hard to do is try and be extremely standard. It’s much easier on the FO, especially when they’re new.

Route66
09-25-2018, 04:36 PM
I don’t care what you’d get wrapped up about.

Do your job the way they pay you to do your job.

Uh....I Do. GFYS.

Pilot X
09-25-2018, 05:27 PM
Bought tickets to Rome. All three LUS guys had jackets. July.

Must have been an all LAA crew :p

Thedude
09-25-2018, 07:13 PM
Got it, i am not familiar with all the fleets procedures. Thanks

Because its ancestor worship.
Just like guys that wave the gear up and down.

cactusmike
09-25-2018, 08:47 PM
Yes, from the tops of the throttles to the base.

It’s taken me a while to get used to that. I still don’t like seeing the hands down by the fuel cutoff switches.

One thing that would be nice, at least on the Boeing fleets, is having the SOPs in one place in the manuals. One thing about Airways, the manuals were laid out very logically. More info than you ever really needed but they were complete and easy to access when you needed info.

aa73
09-26-2018, 03:24 AM
It’s taken me a while to get used to that. I still don’t like seeing the hands down by the fuel cutoff switches.

The hands are nowhere near the “engine start levers” (737-speak for the fuel cutoff switches ;-)... They are at the base of the throttles, which is where CAs are taught to keep their hands until the PF takes over the throttles. This procedure is in place because there have been instances in the past where one or both throttles have accidentally come back right at a very critical phase. (Not a problem on the Bus and no need to keep one’s hands there.)

It’s a fleet specific thing.

Regarding the “up” motion when raising the gear... that died a long time ago. I agree, it was a pretty funny thing.

flyinawa
09-26-2018, 05:01 AM
The hands are nowhere near the “engine start levers” (737-speak for the fuel cutoff switches ;-)... They are at the base of the throttles, which is where CAs are taught to keep their hands until the PF takes over the throttles. This procedure is in place because there have been instances in the past where one or both throttles have accidentally come back right at a very critical phase. (Not a problem on the Bus and no need to keep one’s hands there.)

It’s a fleet specific thing.

And yet, some newer Airbus Captains still do because “That’s how we did it on the Boeing.” I think that’s the difficulty with use of the old, non relevant procedures. Waving one’s hand upward while saying “Gear Up” is silly but harmless. Resting hands near the ENG Masters are potentially a lot more troublesome.

Buzzlightyear
09-26-2018, 05:34 AM
Yes, from the tops of the throttles to the base.

EDIT*

Been on the 73 for two years. Relatively new to the plane. I’ve seen lots of guys do that at V1. During long term that was not taught during ground, two weeks of sim, during the phase, on checkride day or at any point during OE, nor on a few line checks I’ve been in on. Not once did proper/improper hand position of the PF at V1 ever come up.

I’m not saying you or it’s wrong but I do know that it’s no longer being taught.

Proper hand positioning was definitely taught and stressed during run up and acceleration to V1 for PF and PM but not movement from top to bottom at V1 like I’ve seen so much.

aa73
09-26-2018, 05:39 AM
Been on the 73 for two years. Relatively new to the plane. I’ve seen lots of guys do that. During long term that was not taught during ground, two weeks of sim, during the phase, on checkride day or at any point during OE, nor on a few line checks I’ve been in on. Not once did proper/improper hand position at V1 ever come up.

I’m not saying you or it’s wrong but I do know that it’s no longer being taught.

Ok that’s good to know.. I went thru upgrade almost two years ago and when I asked, where do we put our hand at the V1 call, that was the procedure they taught from day 1 in the sim, all the way thru IOE....also just went thru R18 and the CKA didn’t say a word about it.

Honestly, I think it’s a good policy as throttle creep has been documented more than a few times on this fleet (and any fleet that has moving autothrottles)

Buzzlightyear
09-26-2018, 05:42 AM
aa73

Agreed it is a good policy and I understand why guys do it. Law of primacy for me I guess which isn’t always a good thing!

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 05:52 AM
Ok that’s good to know.. I went thru upgrade almost two years ago and when I asked, where do we put our hand at the V1 call, that was the procedure they taught from day 1 in the sim, all the way thru IOE....also just went thru R18 and the CKA didn’t say a word about it.

Honestly, I think it’s a good policy as throttle creep has been documented more than a few times on this fleet (and any fleet that has moving autothrottles)

That’s the problem... no standardization. You ask three instructors or LCA you get three answers. “Let’s see what the book says” is the only correct answer. As someone mentioned standardization makes this job easy and safe for others.

ORDinary
09-26-2018, 05:52 AM
EDIT*

Been on the 73 for two years. Relatively new to the plane. I’ve seen lots of guys do that at V1. During long term that was not taught during ground, two weeks of sim, during the phase, on checkride day or at any point during OE, nor on a few line checks I’ve been in on. Not once did proper/improper hand position of the PF at V1 ever come up.

I’m not saying you or it’s wrong but I do know that it’s no longer being taught.

Proper hand positioning was definitely taught and stressed during run up and acceleration to V1 for PF and PM but not movement from top to bottom at V1 like I’ve seen so much.

Actually I just went through long term on the 73 a few months ago and was taught that hand placement.

aa73
09-26-2018, 06:42 AM
That’s the problem... no standardization. You ask three instructors or LCA you get three answers. “Let’s see what the book says” is the only correct answer. As someone mentioned standardization makes this job easy and safe for others.

Agreed.

And... The book says that “at V1 the CA will remove his/her hand from the **tops** (my emphasis) of the thrust levers.”

Thus, my CKA and Sim Ps teaching of the hand moving to the base of the thrust levers to prevent throttle creep (a known, but rare, occurrence on the 737 fleet.)

So, in other words, they’re teaching it the standard way.

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 06:50 AM
Agreed.

And... The book says that “at V1 the CA will remove his/her hand from the **tops** (my emphasis) of the thrust levers.”

Thus, my CKA and Sim Ps teaching of the hand moving to the base of the thrust levers to prevent throttle creep (a known, but rare, occurrence on the 737 fleet.)

So, in other words, they’re teaching it the standard way.

They’re teaching things not in the book... right?

aa73
09-26-2018, 07:44 AM
They’re teaching things not in the book... right?

Wrong.

The **book procedure** is to remove the hands from the **tops** of the throttles. That is taught.

There is no guidance in the book on where the hands must then go. Since there is no guidance, the hands can go anywhere, except on the tops of the throttles. Since there have been occurrences with throttle creep, the training department teaches as **technique** to place the hands at the base of the throttles to prevent that. Back when I was a 737 F/O, every CA placed his/her hands there at the V1 call, as taught. I remember because as I was getting closer to upgrade I was really paying attention to the CA-specific flows and actions.

Remember, every day there are plenty of **techniques** taught at every airline that are not in the book, but are taught to enhance safety. Even your fleet has plenty of them.

This is all part of the grand puzzle known as Standardization.

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 07:56 AM
Wrong.

The **book procedure** is to remove the hands from the **tops** of the throttles. That is taught.

There is no guidance in the book on where the hands must then go. Since there is no guidance, the hands can go anywhere, except on the tops of the throttles. Since there have been occurrences with throttle creep, the training department teaches as **technique** to place the hands at the base of the throttles to prevent that. Back when I was a 737 F/O, every CA placed his/her hands there at the V1 call, as taught. I remember because as I was getting closer to upgrade I was really paying attention to the CA-specific flows and actions.

Remember, every day there are plenty of **techniques** taught at every airline that are not in the book, but are taught to enhance safety. Even your fleet has plenty of them.

This is all part of the grand puzzle known as Standardization.

The issue is that guys are teaching things where the “book” is lacking. Many of us that are complaining are coming from a high sop background. I’ve seen the cockpit on my new plane (a LAA fleet) run so many different ways it makes my head spin.

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 07:58 AM
aa73, let me ask you a question: when the FO loads the final closeout numbers what’s the next step? (I assume you’re on the 737)

Name User
09-26-2018, 07:58 AM
Technique is using vertical speed or open descent to leave an altitude. Or using vertical speed or IAS to descend in an 80. Where hands are positioned during takeoff? Technique? Really? That should be SOP and taught the same way.

I know the training department is really focused on standardization now. Apparently it was really bad before. Each fleet had it's one procedures and calls.

bigscrillywilli
09-26-2018, 08:01 AM
Lol i love how the Pilot Flying makes a 10,000’ callout so only the Captain can manipulate the light switches and chime. So basically every guy does it at different times so they don’t forget or that’s when they want to do it. We have a long way to go in standardization and common-sense which will be critical with the amount of new people and new upgrades coming.

I just have to laugh at the archaic procedures still in place, stuff that had been figured out at my crappy regional years ago.

🤔

Buzzlightyear
09-26-2018, 08:01 AM
Actually I just went through long term on the 73 a few months ago and was taught that hand placement.

Moving the hands from the top of the throttles to the base or throat at V1?

As aa73 says below the book says to remove hands from top of throttles only. That’s what most of us?? I think we’re taught?😐

aa73
09-26-2018, 08:49 AM
aa73, let me ask you a question: when the FO loads the final closeout numbers what’s the next step? (I assume you’re on the 737)

Al,

Usually the F/O reads the pertinent data (weights, winds, temps) and then begins the before TO checklist, of which the first item is TO data & bugs... to which I respond, Checked.

I understand what you all are talking about and you do have a very valid point: the legacy AA procedures and culture were very, shall we say, old school/antiquated. I have seen many good changes since the merger and I think it’s going to get a lot better. But in the meantime, why not email your specific fleet managers with issues if you think the school house is not teaching standardized stuff?

All I’m pointing out here is how I was taught and why. When I was taught it, it was considered a standardized thing.

The debate on small utterances that are spoken but not in the book is a valid one as well. My take on it has always been that if it enhances safety, it’s a good thing. I’m pretty sure we all utter small things outside of the challenge/response stuff that we do subconsciously, in order to better keep the other guy/gal in the loop.

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 08:55 AM
Al,

Usually the F/O reads the pertinent data (weights, winds, temps) .

Can you tell me where in the book this is located?

aa73
09-26-2018, 09:40 AM
Page 41-2, expanded Before Takeoff section

“After close-out information is received, captain will monitor and verify that the first officer has updated the takeoff data and bugs, and that they are valid and compatible for existing conditions (temp, wind, etc.) for runway to be used (including intersection, if applicable).”

since we are busy with taxiing, 100% of F/Os read aloud what is printed above which satisfies the definition above of “monitor and verify.”

However... some read out a lot more than is necessary, whereas others read the bare minimum info. Doesn’t matter to me as long as the info gets across.

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 10:58 AM
Page 41-2, expanded Before Takeoff section

“After close-out information is received, captain will monitor and verify that the first officer has updated the takeoff data and bugs, and that they are valid and compatible for existing conditions (temp, wind, etc.) for runway to be used (including intersection, if applicable).”

since we are busy with taxiing, 100% of F/Os read aloud what is printed above which satisfies the definition above of “monitor and verify.”

However... some read out a lot more than is necessary, whereas others read the bare minimum info. Doesn’t matter to me as long as the info gets across.

I don’t see this written anywhere.

This is like so many other things.
“The book says this but we do it this other way because...”

Al Czervik
09-26-2018, 11:07 AM
Page 41-2, expanded Before Takeoff section

“After close-out information is received, captain will monitor and verify that the first officer has updated the takeoff data and bugs, and that they are valid and compatible for existing conditions (temp, wind, etc.) for runway to be used (including intersection, if applicable).”

since we are busy with taxiing, 100% of F/Os read aloud what is printed above which satisfies the definition above of “monitor and verify.”

However... some read out a lot more than is necessary, whereas others read the bare minimum info. Doesn’t matter to me as long as the info gets across.

The brief the FO is expected to give is 100% the right way of doing things.
Just PUT IT IN THE BOOK.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1