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View Full Version : Cleaning = Duty


capt707
07-18-2018, 07:24 PM
FLIGHT-TIME/DUTY-TIME: NEW FAA PART 117 INTERPRETATIONS
The first of the two latest FAA interpretations of FAR Part 117 flight-time/duty-time regulations was released on July 3, 2018, and clarified the Part 117 definitions of "duty" and "flight duty period" in the context of an air carrier requiring flightcrew members to perform aircraft cleaning duties at the conclusion of two flight segments while commuting to a flight assignment. The question presented was whether the FDP began at the time of the first cleaning duty or when the flightcrew member reported for the assigned FDP. The FAA has consistently stated that duty means all actual work for an air carrier, including preflight and post-flight activities. The report time is not necessarily the assigned start time of the FDP if prior to the report time the flightcrew member was engaged in ground duties for the air carrier. All activities performed for the air carrier must be included in the flight duty period to mitigate any fatigue that might affect the flight assignment.

https://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=tfZXobw6HxY%3d&tabid=9042


hilltopflyer
07-18-2018, 08:02 PM
Hopefully B6 Alpa will finally put up a fight to what giggity wants us to do.

BeatNavy
07-18-2018, 08:25 PM
Hopefully B6 Alpa will finally put up a fight to what giggity wants us to do.

Glad the FAA has our backs. I would have hoped the people to whom I pay 1.9% of my income would be the ones to fight this. Whatíd they say...bigger fish to fry or something like that? I guess as busy as the FAA is, they probably have bigger fish to fry too. Oh well. At least we have an industry leading....wait. Nevermind.


Blue Dude
07-18-2018, 08:36 PM
Btw, did you see the name of the original requestor for the legal interpretation? "John Q. de Lancie"? John de Lancie, the actor who played Q on Star Trek?

All right, queue, fess up.

BeatNavy
07-18-2018, 08:39 PM
Btw, did you see the name of the original requestor for the legal interpretation? "John Q. de Lancie"? John de Lancie, the actor who played Q on Star Trek?

All right, queue, fess up.

Effing brilliant. Iím not a Trekkie, so I didnít pick up on that. I did however look up to see if we had a pilot by that name, because I figured it was a jetblue pilot who asked. Itís obviously a smart JetBlue pilot who didnít want any giggity repercussions.

PasserOGas
07-18-2018, 08:51 PM
Btw, did you see the name of the original requestor for the legal interpretation? "John Q. de Lancie"? John de Lancie, the actor who played Q on Star Trek?

All right, queue, fess up.

YES!

Oh man, Q is my favorite manic depressive today.

Blue Dude
07-18-2018, 09:08 PM
The guy should never buy his own beer ever again. He just put a very legal stake in the heart of that stupid policy. All any pilot has to do is call crew services for any non rev activity, not just commuting, and put in for, say, 15 minutes on duty. It interrupts rest, it resets the 30 hr off period, all kinds of mischief. I want the Hitler video of this.

Gearswinger
07-18-2018, 10:17 PM
Who the hell is ever cleaning? Did I accidentally click over to Airlineflightattendantforums.com?

Softpayman
07-19-2018, 02:14 AM
Who the hell is ever cleaning? Did I accidentally click over to Airlineflightattendantforums.com?

But the FA's might give you nasty looks!! They might not be your bestie!!

Softpayman
07-19-2018, 02:20 AM
Oh well. At least we have an industry leading....wait. Nevermind.

PEA you were gonna say. We have a PEA now.

That's all we have. No scope, next to lowest payrates, unusable vacation system, industry worst reserve system, scheduling system that doesn't credit our time away (10 hour 3 days).

We also have a TA that addresses those things and makes broad market rate improvements.

Bluedriver
07-19-2018, 03:34 AM
Btw, did you see the name of the original requestor for the legal interpretation? "John Q. de Lancie"? John de Lancie, the actor who played Q on Star Trek?

All right, queue, fess up.

Good catch, but, can't we just say THANK YOU!

CaptCoolHand
07-19-2018, 04:12 AM
Glad the FAA has our backs. I would have hoped the people to whom I pay 1.9% of my income would be the ones to fight this. Whatíd they say...bigger fish to fry or something like that? I guess as busy as the FAA is, they probably have bigger fish to fry too. Oh well. At least we have an industry leading....wait. Nevermind.

Well we're the FAA and we're here to help! :eek:

it's finally clear... thank god.

The reason it was never a thing for ALPA is because it was never a thing.

PasserOGas
07-19-2018, 04:20 AM
Well we're the FAA and we're here to help! :eek:

it's finally clear... thank god.

The reason it was never a thing for ALPA is because it was never a thing.

Yeah, they had their hands full allowing discipline for missed commutes in the "commuter section".

Bluedriver
07-19-2018, 05:04 AM
Well we're the FAA and we're here to help! :eek:

it's finally clear... thank god.

The reason it was never a thing for ALPA is because it was never a thing.

I disagree, it is a thing for commuting pilots.

CaptCoolHand
07-19-2018, 06:01 AM
I disagree, it is a thing for commuting pilots.

We can agree to disagree. I commuted. It was never an issue.

You decide your level of participation. The wording in the guide is vague at best for a reason.

Bluedriver
07-19-2018, 06:08 AM
We can agree to disagree. I commuted. It was never an issue.

You decide your level of participation. The wording in the guide is vague at best for a reason.

I don't think it's that vague... The expectation is pretty clear when non-revenue (commuting). Hopefully this FAA interpretation leads to explicit policy changes for pilots.

But what exactly do you mean when you say it wasn't an issue? Do you mean that you didn't clean and were never turned in to Giggity? Or do you mean you cleaned as expected and it wasn't a big deal?

queue
07-19-2018, 06:42 AM
Btw, did you see the name of the original requestor for the legal interpretation? "John Q. de Lancie"? John de Lancie, the actor who played Q on Star Trek?

All right, queue, fess up.


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eTtVOHnYkqw/WTwXuLRKNSI/AAAAAAAAoCs/_aejU5LnnGEnQIqx18AZgbJhYnt9CAU_QCEw/s1600/star-trek-tng-s01e01-encounter-at-farpoint-2.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
07-19-2018, 06:47 AM
I don't think it's that vague... The expectation is pretty clear when non-revenue (commuting). Hopefully this FAA interpretation leads to explicit policy changes for pilots.

But what exactly do you mean when you say it wasn't an issue? Do you mean that you didn't clean and were never turned in to Giggity? Or do you mean you cleaned as expected and it wasn't a big deal?

I don't clean. I cross my belt and leave the plane as I found it. I have satisfied the expectation to assist in turning the aircraft for the following flight.

CaptCoolHand
07-19-2018, 06:53 AM
Yeah, they had their hands full allowing discipline for missed commutes in the "commuter section".

if you choose to commute you also choose to accept the responsibility to show up for your job. If you can't manage to give yourself two flights that were supposed to land one hour before your show time, you're probably doing it wrong.

This is called being an adult. Some may say professional. You're upset because you failed to show up for work and now have to answer for your actions to your supervisor? Is there any job out there anywhere that you don't work for yourself that this is acceptable?

If you can't show up on a regular basis because of your personal choices then I hope you are brought in for a dependability review.

I commuted for over a decade. I can only recall two times I ever had an OOPS and both fell within the confines of the policy. another non-issue.

PasserOGas
07-19-2018, 07:01 AM
I don't clean. I cross my belt and leave the plane as I found it. I have satisfied the expectation to assist in turning the aircraft for the following flight.

According to the FAA you performed duty, which at some point made some of the flying you did illegal.

Those who dismiss Queue do so at their peril...

queue
07-19-2018, 07:42 AM
I don't clean. I cross my belt and leave the plane as I found it. I have satisfied the expectation to assist in turning the aircraft for the following flight.


I'm not trying to pick on you but I do want you to know that there are other sources of authority that BJ could use against you:


The online training specifically tells you to ask for gloves, clean seat pockets, clean seats, fold belts.
The CP office sent out an email saying it's not acceptable to only do your row.
The commuter policy also tells you to clean.


TA 2 needs to have language that permanently and absolutely prohibits pilots from doing ANY non-certificate holder duties at all times. This contract still allows BJ to pass another policy through the coercion of losing your commuting privileges. For example, there is nothing stopping them from saying "clean the toilets" or else you can't get to work, and it you can't get to work, it goes against your Dependability Policy, and we fire you. It's all one big legal trap!



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-19-2018, 07:44 AM
We can agree to disagree. I commuted. It was never an issue.

You decide your level of participation. The wording in the guide is vague at best for a reason.


Spoken like a true apologist and someone who has been defeated in the past. RJ mentality at its finest. That is not what a professional would say.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-19-2018, 07:49 AM
if you choose to commute you also choose to accept the responsibility to show up for your job. If you can't manage to give yourself two flights that were supposed to land one hour before your show time, you're probably doing it wrong.

This is called being an adult. Some may say professional. You're upset because you failed to show up for work and now have to answer for your actions to your supervisor? Is there any job out there anywhere that you don't work for yourself that this is acceptable?

If you can't show up on a regular basis because of your personal choices then I hope you are brought in for a dependability review.

I commuted for over a decade. I can only recall two times I ever had an OOPS and both fell within the confines of the policy. another non-issue.


You can have your own opinions of what it means to be an adult. None of what you say changes the FACT of what is written. Only the legal language matters, and it's grossly unfair. Under the existing policy and under the TA, you have no defense whatsoever. Read it. Flowchart it. If a CP has it out for you, they could use the DP against you for a single commute. Does that sound too hyperbolic to you? Well, show me in the language where I am wrong. When you write legal language, it's not based on your impressions or anecdotal experience, it must be based on absolute criteria. The DP and Commuter policy are vague to screw specific people and to keep the rest in line using invisible fences.



The contract needs to say: "You are not liable if: (1) you have on BJ flight, (2) two OAL flights." It doesn't say that in the legalese, regardless of what you feel.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
07-19-2018, 10:29 AM
I don't clean. I cross my belt and leave the plane as I found it. I have satisfied the expectation to assist in turning the aircraft for the following flight.

You just stated YOUR "interpretation" of the non-revenue Blue-turn policy.

Your interpretation could lead to discipline or loss of travel privileges if the company doesn't share your interpretation.

It is an issue.

And, as Passer said, you performed required duty but didn't update your duty time with crew services.

It is an issue.

symbian simian
07-19-2018, 10:33 AM
if you choose to commute you also choose to accept the responsibility to show up for your job. If you can't manage to give yourself two flights that were supposed to land one hour before your show time, you're probably doing it wrong.

This is called being an adult. Some may say professional. You're upset because you failed to show up for work and now have to answer for your actions to your supervisor? Is there any job out there anywhere that you don't work for yourself that this is acceptable?

If you can't show up on a regular basis because of your personal choices then I hope you are brought in for a dependability review.

I commuted for over a decade. I can only recall two times I ever had an OOPS and both fell within the confines of the policy. another non-issue.

I have to disagree. NK commute policy is totally clear, list for 2 flights that arrive before duty, and you can never get in trouble. All of us show up for work on time. That is called being an adult. If you think you need a kindergarten commute policy with threats of dependability reviews because you donít trust your employees you are no professional.

queue
07-19-2018, 02:39 PM
I have to disagree. NK commute policy is totally clear, list for 2 flights that arrive before duty, and you can never get in trouble. All of us show up for work on time. That is called being an adult. If you think you need a kindergarten commute policy with threats of dependability reviews because you donít trust your employees you are no professional.


Meanwhile, TA1 has an escape clause where BJ can determine if you "adequately planned" your commute. If they have their CP kangaroo court deem it inadequately planned, you're in trouble with the Dependability Policy. They could tell us to come in a week earlier to adequately plan for an incoming hurricane, crosswinds out of limits, or even Yellowstone about to blow. There literally is no limit to what they could consider "inadequate planning" under the current TA language. It's not an improvement at all. We need to rewrite TA 1 and get TA 2.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

capt707
07-19-2018, 03:31 PM
So.... company says No, ALPA says yes, cleaning is duty.

Blue Dude
07-19-2018, 03:34 PM
No, the company said voluntary commuting isn't duty, which is true. They completely ignored the gist of the opinion regarding mandatory cleaning, just hand waved it away by quoting a footnote that wasn't on point.

PasserOGas
07-19-2018, 03:43 PM
No, the company said voluntary commuting isn't duty, which is true. They completely ignored the gist of the opinion regarding mandatory cleaning, just hand waved it away by quoting a footnote that wasn't on point.

Did I miss an email?

queue
07-19-2018, 03:44 PM
So.... company says No, ALPA says yes, cleaning is duty.


No, the company is lying like a lawyer is trained to lie. They didn't make a false statement. They made a statement that tricks you into thinking something but it isn't what they said. There are two issues:



Is commuting "duty"? No... this is what the company said (note: they neglected to mention everything else in the letter).
Is cleaning while commuting "duty"? Yes... per the FAA.

Again, these are two separate issues. Read the letter carefully, word for word. Read BJ's response carefully. They are lying by omission.

They are just screwing with you. Who still is voting Yes and foolishly thinking these people are honorable? How many times have they lawyered things to their advantage? The latest email ought to provide all the evidence you need to see why we need a rock solid, legal-proof TA. BJ will not hesitate to lawyer the vagueness of TA 1.0 to their advantage.

I hope ALPA exploits their latest email to demonstrate how dirty these people really are. If *anyone* confronts you about cleaning on your way to work, gather evidence. Keep copies of all the relevant policies as they might change without you knowing it. The law is on your side, follow it. If you don't duty-on at cleaning time (assuming you are commuting to work on BJ), you are breaking the law.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-19-2018, 03:52 PM
No, the company is lying like a lawyer is trained to lie. They didn't make a false statement. They made a statement that tricks you into thinking something but it isn't what they said. There are two issues:



Is commuting "duty"? No... this is what the company said (note: they neglected to mention everything else in the letter).
Is cleaning while commuting "duty"? Yes... per the FAA.

Again, these are two separate issues. Read the letter carefully, word for word. Read BJ's response carefully. They are lying by omission.

They are just screwing with you. Who still is voting Yes and foolishly thinking these people are honorable? How many times have they lawyered things to their advantage? The latest email ought to provide all the evidence you need to see why we need a rock solid, legal-proof TA. BJ will not hesitate to lawyer the vagueness of TA 1.0 to their advantage.

I hope ALPA exploits their latest email to demonstrate how dirty these people really are. If *anyone* confronts you about cleaning on your way to work, gather evidence. Keep copies of all the relevant policies as they might change without you knowing it. The law is on your side, follow it. If you don't duty-on at cleaning time (assuming you are commuting to work on BJ), you are breaking the law.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


For once I am in absolute favor of people cleaning during non-rev travel. Especially during your 30 hours off between 4 day trips. Just make sure you call CS and duty on so they can remove your 4 day with pay. :D

MGMTiswatchingU
07-19-2018, 07:59 PM
So.... company says No, ALPA says yes, cleaning is duty.

Was an email sent out? If so, what did it say?

tomgoodman
07-20-2018, 04:21 AM
Was an email sent out? If so, what did it say?

Gotcha!! A copy was placed in each seat-back pocket, to catch people who donít clean the airplane. :D

Bluedriver
07-20-2018, 05:13 AM
Notice how company email said the rule doesn't apply because commuting is voluntary, they did *NOT* say the rule doesn't apply because cleaning isn't *REQUIRED*.

In other words, they could have said that you aren't required to clean, they *didn't*.

benzoate
07-20-2018, 05:55 AM
You aren't required to clean, period. The verbiage says "expected". For reference you are also expected to make 4 announcements during the course of a flight. You are expected to have a clean, pressed uniform, button the top button of your shirt. Do you all do that? Have you ever been called in for that?

There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.

Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.

queue
07-20-2018, 06:05 AM
You aren't required to clean, period. The verbiage says "expected". For reference you are also expected to make 4 announcements during the course of a flight. You are expected to have a clean, pressed uniform, button the top button of your shirt. Do you all do that? Have you ever been called in for that?

There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.

Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.

The pass riding guide, chief pilot email many months ago, and the online training you took in order to keep your pass riding abilities all tell you that you are required to clean. In fact, the online training is a contract.

Furthermore, even the new hire terms of employment and website job description includes "light cleaning".

All that matters is what is written.

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
07-20-2018, 06:51 AM
You aren't required to clean, period. The verbiage says "expected". For reference you are also expected to make 4 announcements during the course of a flight. You are expected to have a clean, pressed uniform, button the top button of your shirt. Do you all do that? Have you ever been called in for that?

There are rumors of pilots being disciplined for not cleaning. No pilot have EVER been disciplined for not cleaning. Pilots have been called in for getting into arguments with flight attendants over cleaning. Facts are facts.

Simply put, get on airplane get off airplane, go to work or home. No cleaning necessary.

Thank you for your opinion. Now the company email did NOT say the ruling is inapplicable because cleaning isn't *required*, it said it isn't applicable because commuting is voluntary.

Big difference. You are expected to clean while using your pass privileges, or they can take those privileges away. It's black and white. So unless you want to risk losing your benefits, it's required.

The "we haven't been penalized yet" cannot be verified (privacy of those counseled) and isn't good enough. We've been threatened with loss of benefits if we don't clean. That is all that matters and makes cleaning required.

benzoate
07-20-2018, 06:57 AM
Thank you for your opinion. Now the company email did NOT say the ruling is inapplicable because cleaning isn't *required*, it said it isn't applicable because commuting is voluntary.

Big difference. You are expected to clean while using your pass privileges, or they can take those privileges away. It's black and white. So unless you want to risk losing your benefits, it's required.

The "we haven't been penalized yet" cannot be verified (privacy of those counseled) and isn't good enough. We've been threatened with loss of benefits if we don't clean. That is all that matters and makes cleaning required.

Actually the penalization part can be verified. Ask your reps. This is public knowledge and confidentiality is not required in this type of event. The days of precedent setting are not applicable in this case.
In addition, EXPECTED is not REQUIRED and the company knows this. Paul Hockings email was very specific in its vagueness. The airline knows it cannot force a pilot to clean an airliner regardless. The FOM job description is very specific but they can suggest you help when using a voluntary service. I can honestly share with you I had an FA bring me bluegloves at TOD and I calmly showed him my ID, told him to take a picture if he liked and felt compelled to report me and that there was ZERO REQUIREMENT for me to clean anything. In standard fashion Jetblue pilots are simply making a mountain out of a mole hill.

This isn't anymore complicated than it sounds. You aren't required so you don't have to. They would like you to but thats it. Please email or call a rep.

Bluedriver
07-20-2018, 07:08 AM
Actually the penalization part can be verified. Ask your reps. This is public knowledge and confidentiality is not required in this type of event. The days of precedent setting are not applicable in this case.
In addition, EXPECTED is not REQUIRED and the company knows this. Paul Hockings email was very specific in its vagueness. The airline knows it cannot force a pilot to clean an airliner regardless. The FOM job description is very specific but they can suggest you help when using a voluntary service. I can honestly share with you I had an FA bring me bluegloves at TOD and I calmly showed him my ID, told him to take a picture if he liked and felt compelled to report me and that there was ZERO REQUIREMENT for me to clean anything. In standard fashion Jetblue pilots are simply making a mountain out of a mole hill.

This isn't anymore complicated than it sounds. You aren't required so you don't have to. They would like you to but thats it. Please email or call a rep.

If they haven't pulled someone's pass benefits yet, that doesn't mean they can't or won't. It's right there in the required training you signed. Unless you want to risk your benefits, it's required.

Even the ALPA guidance that was just sent said it is "expected". That's a pretty strong word, maybe short of "required" as an individual term, but coupled with the signed contract saying you understand your pass privileges can be withdrawn, it's a pretty strong word.

ALPA did NOT say pilots aren't required by policy to clean. That would have been a simple public statement to make, but they haven't said that for pass riding.

benzoate
07-20-2018, 07:44 AM
If they haven't pulled someone's pass benefits yet, that doesn't mean they can't or won't. It's right there in the required training you signed. Unless you want to risk your benefits, it's required.

Even the ALPA guidance that was just sent said it is "expected". That's a pretty strong word, maybe short of "required" as an individual term, but coupled with the signed contract saying you understand your pass privileges can be withdrawn, it's a pretty strong word.

ALPA did NOT say pilots aren't required by policy to clean. That would have been a simple public statement to make, but they haven't said that for pass riding.

BD you are overthinking this scenario.

Jetblue has the word expect in various manuals. Take a look. From your uniform to the announcements you are to make in the aircraft. Flight Ops doesnt really care about this and therefore doesnt spend any extra time on it. There is no discipline associated with this and in the history of the airline has never suspended a pilots travel benefits over this specific scenario. Half our pilots can't even follow the uniform guidance and you think they will spend time pursuing disciplinary action because you didn't don a pair of bluegloves?
We have been in negotiations for 4 years and at times fairly contentious and nothing regarding this issue has ever happened. This is only an issue on the message boards because the reality is the airline is not concerned about this.

LoudFastRules
07-20-2018, 08:30 AM
I just want to make sure I'm am assembling the knowledge I need from these communications correctly.

1) ANY work performed to the benefit of the company, for any reason, is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

2) ANY work performed to fulfill the company's requirements to receive any company pay or benefit is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

These two points seem clear from the ALPA and FAA communications.

Now, from the company's perspective:

3) Commuting is voluntary, so not part of a pilot's FDP.

This statement, by itself, is also true.

However, as the FAA interpretation was specifically addressing work performed for the company as a requirement of commuting, once you are REQUIRED to perform any work for the company, at any time, for ANY reason, that work now becomes legally duty applicable to a pilot's FDP.

Finally, if you are cleaning an airplane, ever, for any reason, that work, regardless of your motivation, is work that is directly to the benefit of the company. Therefore, it is WORK, therefore it is DUTY.

Right?

LoudFastRules
07-20-2018, 08:33 AM
Was an email sent out? If so, what did it say?

Yes, in the general ALPA all airline news letter. The MEC followed up by a further communication. The company had its pathetic response via our chimp pilot. Finally, the MEC responded to that response with a firm "NOPE".

todd1200
07-20-2018, 08:52 AM
I just want to make sure I'm am assembling the knowledge I need from these communications correctly.

1) ANY work performed to the benefit of the company, for any reason, is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

2) ANY work performed to fulfill the company's requirements to receive any company pay or benefit is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

These two points seem clear from the ALPA and FAA communications.

Now, from the company's perspective:

3) Commuting is voluntary, so not part of a pilot's FDP.

This statement, by itself, is also true.

However, as the FAA interpretation was specifically addressing work performed for the company as a requirement of commuting, once you are REQUIRED to perform any work for the company, at any time, for ANY reason, that work now becomes legally duty applicable to a pilot's FDP.

Finally, if you are cleaning an airplane, ever, for any reason, that work, regardless of your motivation, is work that is directly to the benefit of the company. Therefore, it is WORK, therefore it is DUTY.

Right?

I think you’re right. It’s disappointing that they seem to have such a low estimation of the pilot group’s reading comprehension. Meanwhile everyone who commutes on line is left to wonder whether or not they’re violating rest/duty regs on every trip. Fingers crossed I don’t have a mishap and during the subsequent FAA investigation I get to explain why I ignored FAA guidance and decided not to include “other activities performed for the air carrier” in my FDP calculations, despite clear and direct guidance from the FAA to do otherwise.

queue
07-20-2018, 09:25 AM
I just want to make sure I'm am assembling the knowledge I need from these communications correctly.

1) ANY work performed to the benefit of the company, for any reason, is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

2) ANY work performed to fulfill the company's requirements to receive any company pay or benefit is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

These two points seem clear from the ALPA and FAA communications.

Now, from the company's perspective:

3) Commuting is voluntary, so not part of a pilot's FDP.

This statement, by itself, is also true.

However, as the FAA interpretation was specifically addressing work performed for the company as a requirement of commuting, once you are REQUIRED to perform any work for the company, at any time, for ANY reason, that work now becomes legally duty applicable to a pilot's FDP.

Finally, if you are cleaning an airplane, ever, for any reason, that work, regardless of your motivation, is work that is directly to the benefit of the company. Therefore, it is WORK, therefore it is DUTY.

Right?

Correct. They are lying by omission and letting you come to false conclusions. It's not illegal as knowing all rules, regulations, contract language, policies, is your personal due diligence (legally speaking).

Also note how many pilots are still scared into voluntary submission based on vague clauses. The TA is full of vagueness too, which is why it's so dangerous. Look at the CP email... look at how deceptive they are despite a clear ruling from the FAA?

Does anyone really think our vague TA won't be abused by BJ, meanwhile keeping us in years of grievances, which even if we win, we don't win (3A). We need to rewrite TA 1 and get rid of numerous loopholes.

This cleaning thing is an example of who we are dealing with... let us not be fooled again.

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-20-2018, 09:29 AM
I think you’re right. It’s disappointing that they seem to have such a low estimation of the pilot group’s reading comprehension. Meanwhile everyone who commutes on line is left to wonder whether or not they’re violating rest/duty regs on every trip. Fingers crossed I don’t have a mishap and during the subsequent FAA investigation I get to explain why I ignored FAA guidance and decided not to include “other activities performed for the air carrier” in my FDP calculations, despite clear and direct guidance from the FAA to do otherwise.

They have an accurate estimation about most, sadly. Look at how many people are glossing over the gross legal loopholes of TA 1. Sure, there are some people here who can read, but too many people are blinded by the promise of a third rate TA.

Their email is just a preview of the kind of deception, lies, and legalism you can expect when we have a vague TA.

Also, don't count on ALPA to live up to their marketing hype either. They could've fixed this issue too but they only gave excuses for their low standards. Don't ever forget that.

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hilltopflyer
07-20-2018, 09:43 AM
Yes, in the general ALPA all airline news letter. The MEC followed up by a further communication. The company had its pathetic response via our chimp pilot. Finally, the MEC responded to that response with a firm "NOPE".

Whatís crazy is Iíd figure during a voting period the company wouldnít come out as being sly that might show how they are going to treat the contract.

queue
07-20-2018, 09:44 AM
Whatís crazy is Iíd figure during a voting period the company wouldnít come out as being sly that might show how they are going to treat the contract.

They are maximizing their use of their weapons right up to the legal limit. That's what F&H is for.

Meanwhile we cower behind TA 1.

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
07-20-2018, 09:59 AM
BD you are overthinking this scenario.

Jetblue has the word expect in various manuals. Take a look. From your uniform to the announcements you are to make in the aircraft. Flight Ops doesnt really care about this and therefore doesnt spend any extra time on it. There is no discipline associated with this and in the history of the airline has never suspended a pilots travel benefits over this specific scenario. Half our pilots can't even follow the uniform guidance and you think they will spend time pursuing disciplinary action because you didn't don a pair of bluegloves?
We have been in negotiations for 4 years and at times fairly contentious and nothing regarding this issue has ever happened. This is only an issue on the message boards because the reality is the airline is not concerned about this.

The training you signed says you are expected to clean or lose your travel benefits. It's required, if they want to push the issue. Just because they haven't removed someone's benefits yet isn't good enough. They CAN. Also, they may very well have counseled some people for it. That's bad enough and WOULD be confidential.

MGMTiswatchingU
07-20-2018, 10:13 AM
Yes, in the general ALPA all airline news letter. The MEC followed up by a further communication. The company had its pathetic response via our chimp pilot. Finally, the MEC responded to that response with a firm "NOPE".

Ok thanks. (General question) So why is this still an issue for folks on here? It's clear as day. Also BD, do you clean? Because it seems like you don't want to risk your benefits.

todd1200
07-20-2018, 10:36 AM
Ok thanks. (General question) So why is this still an issue for folks on here? It's clear as day. Also BD, do you clean? Because it seems like you don't want to risk your benefits.

Itís the opposite of clear. Written guidance from the company states that we can have certain privileges revoked for failing to comply with certain requirements. The FAA has gone on record saying this constitutes duty and must be counted as part of an FDP. The company responded by quoting a footnote and pretending that that footnote made the entire FAA interpretation moot (why would the FAA write an interpretation that had no application?). My guess is that they want to have their cake and eat it tooómake it appear to be a requirement when itís convenient for them, but make it appear to be optional when itís inconvenient, but thatís just a guess and if they wanted to revoke travel privileges based on a failure to comply with their policies, they would be well within their right. To be clear, for me, this isnít about cleaning, itís about integrity. There could be a requirement to get a 30 minute back rub following every commute or risk losing your non-rev benefits and if the company told us to ignore FAA guidance and pretend itís optional, I would have a big problem with that.

MGMTiswatchingU
07-20-2018, 10:56 AM
Itís the opposite of clear. Written guidance from the company states that we can have certain privileges revoked for failing to comply with certain requirements. The FAA has gone on record saying this constitutes duty and must be counted as part of an FDP. The company responded by quoting a footnote and pretending that that footnote made the entire FAA interpretation moot (why would the FAA write an interpretation that had no application?). My guess is that they want to have their cake and eat it tooómake it appear to be a requirement when itís convenient for them, but make it appear to be optional when itís inconvenient, but thatís just a guess and if they wanted to revoke travel privileges based on a failure to comply with their policies, they would be well within their right. To be clear, for me, this isnít about cleaning, itís about integrity. There could be a requirement to get a 30 minute back rub following every commute or risk losing your non-rev benefits and if the company told us to ignore FAA guidance and pretend itís optional, I would have a big problem with that.

I see what you mean. But by the FAA it is counted as duty, whether BJ wants to say its optional or required, once they force a pilot to clean. Therefore the pilot can exercise the law to have them start his FDP. My opinion of course.

queue
07-20-2018, 11:27 AM
My guess is that they want to have their cake and eat it tooómake it appear to be a requirement when itís convenient for them, but make it appear to be optional when itís inconvenient,


Precisely.


Just wait until they have two faced interpretations of our substandard TA language. They already play games with positive contact and numerous other disciplinary issues.





The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-20-2018, 11:29 AM
I see what you mean. But by the FAA it is counted as duty, whether BJ wants to say its optional or required, once they force a pilot to clean. Therefore the pilot can exercise the law to have them start his FDP. My opinion of course.


And if you duty on earlier than they planned because of their own policies, then the consequences to the operation are squarely THEIR fault. You are merely following FAA guidance (and the law that rules the FAA).




The Railway Labor Act Simplified (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/114169-railway-labor-act-simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

benzoate
07-20-2018, 11:44 AM
The training you signed says you are expected to clean or lose your travel benefits. It's required, if they want to push the issue. Just because they haven't removed someone's benefits yet isn't good enough. They CAN. Also, they may very well have counseled some people for it. That's bad enough and WOULD be confidential.

100% wrong. No one has been counseled. Know your facts and sources. Pilots have been questioned about events but nothing directly because they didnít clean. FACT

Could they suspend your travel benefits, sure. Have they to date, no they have not. You canít put anything past this management and Giggity but fear mongering does no one any good.

cmesoar
07-20-2018, 12:04 PM
As for me, I could care less about crossing a few seat-belts when I am commuting. I do my row and I roll. I will never let a customer see me do it though. I want to maintain free travel and I need the benefits to get to work. Now with that being said, I am currently reading the TA for the third time because I do not like the company's response. I am looking for ways for them to change their stance on what they agreed to in the TA with our NC. I trust our NC and the lawyers, but the company has lawyers too and they will use them to play with words as I can see after this latest communication from them on this stupid issue of crossing seat-belts.

Southerner
07-20-2018, 12:49 PM
I just want to make sure I'm am assembling the knowledge I need from these communications correctly.

1) ANY work performed to the benefit of the company, for any reason, is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

2) ANY work performed to fulfill the company's requirements to receive any company pay or benefit is DUTY applicable to a pilot's FDP.

These two points seem clear from the ALPA and FAA communications.

Now, from the company's perspective:

3) Commuting is voluntary, so not part of a pilot's FDP.

This statement, by itself, is also true.

However, as the FAA interpretation was specifically addressing work performed for the company as a requirement of commuting, once you are REQUIRED to perform any work for the company, at any time, for ANY reason, that work now becomes legally duty applicable to a pilot's FDP.

Finally, if you are cleaning an airplane, ever, for any reason, that work, regardless of your motivation, is work that is directly to the benefit of the company. Therefore, it is WORK, therefore it is DUTY.

Right?

To your last statement, no that's not true. It must be REQUIRED to be duty. You can check your company email any time you like, and because you aren't required to check it, it isn't duty.

Whether it benefits the company is irrelevant. If you clean the plane of your own volition (voluntarily), that's not duty. If the cleaning is required, it is duty.

(Whether or not you voluntarily commuted is also irrelevant.)


*Disclaimer (because some of you need one)

I'm not saying anything about whether it is required or not. I'm simply stating a fact, and remaining neutral on the larger issue at hand.

Bluedriver
07-20-2018, 04:08 PM
100% wrong. No one has been counseled. Know your facts and sources. Pilots have been questioned about events but nothing directly because they didnít clean. FACT

Could they suspend your travel benefits, sure. Have they to date, no they have not. You canít put anything past this management and Giggity but fear mongering does no one any good.

How would you know if a pilot was counseled? Do they post the verbal reprimands up in the crew room around here?

But, more on point, you just said the company COULD pull someone's flight benefits for not cleaning, that's wrong by the FAAs definition of required duty. If they can pull your benefits for not doing it, (you just said they could) then it is required.

Just because they haven't pulled that trigger (yet) doesn't matter.

hilltopflyer
07-20-2018, 05:26 PM
How would you know if a pilot was counseled? Do they post the verbal reprimands up in the crew room around here?

But, more on point, you just said the company COULD pull someone's flight benefits for not cleaning, that's wrong by the FAAs definition of required duty. If they can pull your benefits for not doing it, (you just said they could) then it is required.

Just because they haven't pulled that trigger (yet) doesn't matter.

Did you not ger the email to lineup and kick said pilot who didnít clean like I did?

Bluedriver
07-20-2018, 05:33 PM
Did you not ger the email to lineup and kick said pilot who didnít clean like I did?

Not sure what you mean?

benzoate
07-20-2018, 05:47 PM
How would you know if a pilot was counseled? Do they post the verbal reprimands up in the crew room around here?

But, more on point, you just said the company COULD pull someone's flight benefits for not cleaning, that's wrong by the FAAs definition of required duty. If they can pull your benefits for not doing it, (you just said they could) then it is required.

Just because they haven't pulled that trigger (yet) doesn't matter.

Get off bluepilots and get involved with the union and you will have all your answers. There is nothing secret going on but what is reported on a message board and what actually transpires are two different realities.

Your pass travel benefits could be suspended just like flica or anything else if the company felt you violated a policy. The cleaning issue is NOT required because anything required is considered duty. Placing someone on a scheduled deadhead IS considered duty but jumpseating to work is not. If the company ever made cleaning mandatory then the FAA could interpret that as duty and therefore cause a host of problems for the airline and the pilot group. If jetblue requires cleaning and a pilot jumpseat a to work then it screws both the airline and the pilot by requiring the pilot a rest period prior to work. Neither the airline nor the pilot group want this.

Everyone needs to focus on the fact our TA has issues and not cleaning.

PasserOGas
07-20-2018, 07:42 PM
Get off bluepilots and get involved with the union and you will have all your answers. There is nothing secret going on but what is reported on a message board and what actually transpires are two different realities.

Your pass travel benefits could be suspended just like flica or anything else if the company felt you violated a policy. The cleaning issue is NOT required because anything required is considered duty. Placing someone on a scheduled deadhead IS considered duty but jumpseating to work is not. If the company ever made cleaning mandatory then the FAA could interpret that as duty and therefore cause a host of problems for the airline and the pilot group. If jetblue requires cleaning and a pilot jumpseat a to work then it screws both the airline and the pilot by requiring the pilot a rest period prior to work. Neither the airline nor the pilot group want this.

Everyone needs to focus on the fact our TA has issues and not cleaning.

Uh, where have you been the past 2 years? The company made cleaning mandatory when using pass travel. This includes commuting to work. There was a whole mandatory online training course that we didn't get paid for that you had to do and sign that went into great detail about it.


Again. It is mandatory per current policy. Per the FAA you must now duty on after this mandatory activity.

It really is that simple.

benzoate
07-21-2018, 01:38 AM
Uh, where have you been the past 2 years? The company made cleaning mandatory when using pass travel. This includes commuting to work. There was a whole mandatory online training course that we didn't get paid for that you had to do and sign that went into great detail about it.


Again. It is mandatory per current policy. Per the FAA you must now duty on after this mandatory activity.

It really is that simple.

I know what you are saying and perhaps we're getting in a semantics argument. We did receive training on how to accomplish a task but no where in any manual is it stated that the action is mandatory. You were trained on what to do but its still only expected. This is why its not considered duty per the FAA, the airline uses expected and no discipline can be come from it.

You are required to report to work, required to wear a uniform etc. You are expected to clean.

Jetblue can't force or discipline anyone for this because then it does become duty subject to a rest period. IF the pilots or Jetblue want to push this BS that far then every commuter will clean the AC and then be required to have a 10 hour rest period prior to work.

Jetblue is an idiotic place to work full of these culture based ideals.

This very conversation we are having is exactly why anyone who wants an airline job should think twice about coming to Jetblue. This place is a fvuking cult!!!

PasserOGas
07-21-2018, 03:47 AM
I know what you are saying and perhaps we're getting in a semantics argument. We did receive training on how to accomplish a task but no where in any manual is it stated that the action is mandatory. You were trained on what to do but its still only expected. This is why its not considered duty per the FAA, the airline uses expected and no discipline can be come from it.

You are required to report to work, required to wear a uniform etc. You are expected to clean.

Jetblue can't force or discipline anyone for this because then it does become duty subject to a rest period. IF the pilots or Jetblue want to push this BS that far then every commuter will clean the AC and then be required to have a 10 hour rest period prior to work.

Jetblue is an idiotic place to work full of these culture based ideals.

This very conversation we are having is exactly why anyone who wants an airline job should think twice about coming to Jetblue. This place is a fvuking cult!!!

Well, I agree that they won't be disciplining anyone. If they pulled even a single pilot's pass travel for not cleaning the operation would be crippled over night by all the guys dutying on at the end of their commutes.

The problem is that it is a catch 22. They could pull everyone's pass privileges who doesn't call CS that commutes, because the lack of that call is proof you didn't clean. Of course they would have to be epically stupid/insane to do that.

Jetblue will just quietly "forget" about this dumb idea. Joanna won't be speaking to any pilots personally (as she threatened to do).

At the end of this Q scored a huge win for us. It is the end of us being even "expected" to clean.

Bluedriver
07-21-2018, 04:45 AM
Get off bluepilots and get involved with the union and you will have all your answers. There is nothing secret going on but what is reported on a message board and what actually transpires are two different realities.

Your pass travel benefits could be suspended just like flica or anything else if the company felt you violated a policy. The cleaning issue is NOT required because anything required is considered duty. Placing someone on a scheduled deadhead IS considered duty but jumpseating to work is not. If the company ever made cleaning mandatory then the FAA could interpret that as duty and therefore cause a host of problems for the airline and the pilot group. If jetblue requires cleaning and a pilot jumpseat a to work then it screws both the airline and the pilot by requiring the pilot a rest period prior to work. Neither the airline nor the pilot group want this.

Everyone needs to focus on the fact our TA has issues and not cleaning.

The fact that the company won't say explicitly that we are not required to EVER clean is bad enough for me. They want to maintain the illusion that we are all equal because of this FAKE CULTure.

Nuke the CULTure, make them say it out loud, pilots are NOT required to clean. Until they say it out loud, the training they forced us to take says otherwise, via threat of loss of privileges for not complying.

Nuke the FAKE CULTure.

benzoate
07-21-2018, 05:01 AM
The fact that the company won't say explicitly that we are not required to EVER clean is bad enough for me. They want to maintain the illusion that we are all equal because of this FAKE CULTure.

Nuke the CULTure, make them say it out loud, pilots are NOT required to clean. Until they say it out loud, the training they forced us to take says otherwise, via threat of loss of privileges for not complying.

Nuke the FAKE CULTure.

Canít disagree sir.

say again
07-21-2018, 05:02 AM
The fact that the company won't say explicitly that we are not required to EVER clean is bad enough for me. They want to maintain the illusion that we are all equal because of this FAKE CULTure.

Nuke the CULTure, make them say it out loud, pilots are NOT required to clean. Until they say it out loud, the training they forced us to take says otherwise, via threat of loss of privileges for not complying.

Nuke the FAKE CULTure.

Well said. We are not equals, and many FA's need to realize/know this.

benzoate
07-21-2018, 05:02 AM
Well, I agree that they won't be disciplining anyone. If they pulled even a single pilot's pass travel for not cleaning the operation would be crippled over night by all the guys dutying on at the end of their commutes.

The problem is that it is a catch 22. They could pull everyone's pass privileges who doesn't call CS that commutes, because the lack of that call is proof you didn't clean. Of course they would have to be epically stupid/insane to do that.

Jetblue will just quietly "forget" about this dumb idea. Joanna won't be speaking to any pilots personally (as she threatened to do).

At the end of this Q scored a huge win for us. It is the end of us being even "expected" to clean.

In the bluethisphere this is how we win. Iíd like a concrete statement but I guess this will do for now. I suppose this is what happens when you hire a legal cheerleader to run a billion dollar operation. Certainly clarifies why we are last in OTP.

N311JB
07-21-2018, 05:57 AM
This doesn’t have to be difficult. Are we pass riding or jumpseating? If there’s a W next to my name, I’m jumpseating. I’m checking in with the captain, asking for a ride, being professional and using the great privilege we have as pilots. If there’s an issue in the back, mx or pax related I’m expected to help out. Can I have an adult beverage when I’m jumpseating? No, so unless I’m on a super pass I’m not pass riding so none of these rules apply to me about cleaning. It’s pretty simple

Cmdrls
07-21-2018, 08:54 AM
This doesnít have to be difficult. Are we pass riding or jumpseating? If thereís a W next to my name, Iím jumpseating. Iím checking in with the captain, asking for a ride, being professional and using the great privilege we have as pilots. If thereís an issue in the back, mx or pax related Iím expected to help out. Can I have an adult beverage when Iím jumpseating? No, so unless Iím on a super pass Iím not pass riding so none of these rules apply to me about cleaning. Itís pretty simple

Youíre right itís pretty simple. Unfortunately, you clearly have a poor understanding of your pass benefits.

PasserOGas
07-21-2018, 11:41 AM
This doesnít have to be difficult. Are we pass riding or jumpseating? If thereís a W next to my name, Iím jumpseating. Iím checking in with the captain, asking for a ride, being professional and using the great privilege we have as pilots. If thereís an issue in the back, mx or pax related Iím expected to help out. Can I have an adult beverage when Iím jumpseating? No, so unless Iím on a super pass Iím not pass riding so none of these rules apply to me about cleaning. Itís pretty simple

If you are jump seating on us you are "expected/required" to clean. If you are on vacation with your family or not is irrelivent. What if you took a day trip somewhere the 2 days prior to a 5 day trip? It would make you illegal for the last day of the pairing.

They cannot/won't track it. If anyone gives you crap tell them to pound sand and reference the FAA.

Or, clean and duty on and watch the chief pilot try to explain what you did wrong when he calls you in.

I like option 2. Please take notes and post them here.

Qotsaautopilot
07-21-2018, 10:22 PM
Not a Jetblue pilot so outside looking in.

Let say a pilot deplanes his/her “voluntary” commute and chose to not clean. Now there is no issue with FARs as rest was not interrupted by preforming any “duty” such as cleaning. All good with the FAA.

Jetblue decides to revoke that pilot’s pass privileges for not cleaning. Well within Jetblue’s rights based on written policies.

As a result every commuting pilot starts cleaning so as not to lose pass privileges like the pilot Jetblue made an example out of. As a result all commuting pilots are performing “duty” per the FAA and thus having an affect on downline FDPs and rest periods. Pilots would be legally obligated to report this duty to Crew scheduling so it can be tracked in their 117 calculator. End result is the airline melts down.

So... either you clean because you’re scared you’ll lose your pass travel and are performing duty which most likely will affect legality of downline flying or you don’t clean and Jetblue doesn’t say a thing because they don’t want thousands of pilots reporting duty while cleaning because they made an example out of someone. Sounds like a stand-off to me and they are bluffing. The fallout would be too catastrophic. They will stick with a pilot pushing tactic of convincing you to do something illegal without implicitly requiring you to do it. It’s up to you to just say no and they can’t do a thing about it.

GuppyPuppy
07-22-2018, 03:45 AM
SOP forever.

GP

Bluedriver
07-22-2018, 07:22 AM
Not a Jetblue pilot so outside looking in.

Let say a pilot deplanes his/her ďvoluntaryĒ commute and chose to not clean. Now there is no issue with FARs as rest was not interrupted by preforming any ďdutyĒ such as cleaning. All good with the FAA.

Jetblue decides to revoke that pilotís pass privileges for not cleaning. Well within Jetblueís rights based on written policies.

As a result every commuting pilot starts cleaning so as not to lose pass privileges like the pilot Jetblue made an example out of. As a result all commuting pilots are performing ďdutyĒ per the FAA and thus having an affect on downline FDPs and rest periods. Pilots would be legally obligated to report this duty to Crew scheduling so it can be tracked in their 117 calculator. End result is the airline melts down.

So... either you clean because youíre scared youíll lose your pass travel and are performing duty which most likely will affect legality of downline flying or you donít clean and Jetblue doesnít say a thing because they donít want thousands of pilots reporting duty while cleaning because they made an example out of someone. Sounds like a stand-off to me and they are bluffing. The fallout would be too catastrophic. They will stick with a pilot pushing tactic of convincing you to do something illegal without implicitly requiring you to do it. Itís up to you to just say no and they canít do a thing about it.

All true. But most pilots don't understand this fully, and MANY clean thinking it's required by our pass riding guide or think the water is so muddy that they don't want to take the chance of losing flight benefits. And the rest of the Airline doesn't know we aren't actually REQUIRED to clean, so the dirty looks and nasty comments abound.

Here's an idea, NUKE the FAKE CULTure and say explicitly that pilots aren't required to clean? How about that?

Otherwise some pilots WILL clean believing it's required per the training we we're FORCED to agree to and potentially open themselves up to FAR violation.

HAPPYTUG
07-22-2018, 07:28 AM
I voted no

pilotpayne
07-22-2018, 11:29 AM
All true. But most pilots don't understand this fully, and MANY clean thinking it's required by our pass riding guide or think the water is so muddy that they don't want to take the chance of losing flight benefits. And the rest of the Airline doesn't know we aren't actually REQUIRED to clean, so the dirty looks and nasty comments abound.

Here's an idea, NUKE the FAKE CULTure and say explicitly that pilots aren't required to clean? How about that?

Otherwise some pilots WILL clean believing it's required per the training we we're FORCED to agree to and potentially open themselves up to FAR violation.

What gigitty does not get is this issue is destroying the culture. Just like when they decoupled us. Look 4 legs 4 different FAs there is not much of a crew interaction there. Now itís this cleaning crap it turns into us vs them and who is and who isnít DH and so on.

So do one of two things.

Pay the FAs to clean or Hire cleaners and do away with this issue.
Itís just simply not needed. Jetblue has evolved there is no reason this canít as well.

todd1200
07-22-2018, 12:00 PM
IMO, a good solution would be to just publicly acknowledge that pilots canít be forced to clean due to FAA duty regs and then charge us $50 or so per year for non-rev privileges.

Bluedriver
07-22-2018, 12:10 PM
IMO, a good solution would be to just publicly acknowledge that pilots canít be forced to clean due to FAA duty regs and then charge us $50 or so per year for non-rev privileges.

How much do Delta mainline pilots pay for not cleaning the plane? That's what I will agree to.

Bluedriver
07-22-2018, 12:11 PM
What gigitty does not get is this issue is destroying the culture. Just like when they decoupled us. Look 4 legs 4 different FAs there is not much of a crew interaction there. Now itís this cleaning crap it turns into us vs them and who is and who isnít DH and so on.

So do one of two things.

Pay the FAs to clean or Hire cleaners and do away with this issue.
Itís just simply not needed. Jetblue has evolved there is no reason this canít as well.

All true for sure.

PasserOGas
07-22-2018, 12:29 PM
IMO, a good solution would be to just publicly acknowledge that pilots canít be forced to clean due to FAA duty regs and then charge us $50 or so per year for non-rev privileges.

Or they can go **** themselves.

FliesInSoup
07-22-2018, 01:44 PM
From an outsider looking in, my thoughts would be that no pilot, not once, perform cleaning duties. Don't even think about it. The first time a pilot gets called out on it, well, that news will spread like wildfire. The ensuing impact will be everyone will now be logging additional duty and creating an unbelievably expensive nightmare for the Company.

queue
07-22-2018, 02:20 PM
From an outsider looking in, my thoughts would be that no pilot, not once, perform cleaning duties. Don't even think about it. The first time a pilot gets called out on it, well, that news will spread like wildfire. The ensuing impact will be everyone will now be logging additional duty and creating an unbelievably expensive nightmare for the Company.


It would be nice if BJ pilots would actually believed this... the problem is that this group is severely beaten down and apologetic of any abuse. It's Stockholm Syndrome here. The pilot culture here needs some serious mentoring. I hope you other airline guys can help change this place because the blue juice runs so deep here that they don't even realize it. Look at how many people rationalize the cleaning policy, the dependability policy, and of course this substandard TA. They'll buy into *any* false argument. There are always exceptions, but most simply have the talking point of "it's better than what we had before" (Regional Mentality). :p

They have so many tools in their arsenal to fight for respectability but they don't fight for even the most basic of standards. Sorry, but I'm telling it like it is. I'm sorry we are bringing down your airline and the industry by being enablers for lower standards.

People here find any excuse imaginable to not even TRY.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-22-2018, 02:25 PM
It would be nice if BJ pilots would actually believed this... the problem is that this group is severely beaten down and apologetic of any abuse. It's Stockholm Syndrome here. The pilot culture here needs some serious mentoring. I hope you other airline guys can help change this place because the blue juice runs so deep here that they don't even realize it. Look at how many people rationalize the cleaning policy, the dependability policy, and of course this substandard TA. They'll buy into *any* false argument. There are always exceptions, but most simply have the talking point of "it's better than what we had before" (Regional Mentality). :p

They have so many tools in their arsenal to fight for respectability but they don't fight for even the most basic of standards. Sorry, but I'm telling it like it is. I'm sorry we are bringing down your airline and the industry by being enablers for lower standards.

People here find any excuse imaginable to not even TRY.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Q. You are absolutely right, but you need to cut your post size down by 80%. Remember, the people you are trying to sway are thinking about voting yes to this TA. Dumb it down.

Southerner
07-22-2018, 02:34 PM
Q. You are absolutely right, but you need to cut your post size down by 80%. Remember, the people you are trying to sway are thinking about voting yes to this TA. Dumb it down.

You just realize that you just called about 65% - 70% of the pilot group stupid, right?

seekingblue
07-22-2018, 04:02 PM
You just realize that you just called about 65% - 70% of the pilot group stupid, right?

Either you agree with him and Queue or you are wrong. No in-between. No place for differing opinions. No civil discourse.

Keep in mind he called us all, "wanna be scabs."

Just realize he is an unhappy dude and leave him alone. I think we won't see much of him and Queue after Friday.

FollowMe
07-22-2018, 04:34 PM
Either you agree with him and Queue or you are wrong. No in-between. No place for differing opinions. No civil discourse.

Keep in mind he called us all, "wanna be scabs."

Just realize he is an unhappy dude and leave him alone. I think we won't see much of him and Queue after Friday.

Itís sad to see the empathy turned to vitriol at anyone who makes you uncomfortable. Like him or loathe him Q is 100% fighting for YOU. If you would look at the intent of his postings his only goal is the betterment of his pilot group. I get not everyone agrees with his tactics, and Iím sure he pushes peoples comfort zones, but at least recognize that he is trying to champion the best for his brothers and sisters.

seekingblue
07-22-2018, 04:38 PM
Itís sad to see the empathy turned to vitriol at anyone who makes you uncomfortable. Like him or loathe him Q is 100% fighting for YOU. If you would look at the intent of his postings his only goal is the betterment of his pilot group. I get not everyone agrees with his tactics, and Iím sure he pushes peoples comfort zones, but at least recognize that he is trying to champion the best for his brothers and sisters.


He is absolutely fighting for us. No doubt. Apologize if I said something to make you feel different.

That said, I disagree with his tactics 100%. We both support the MEC, want the best for the group, etc. However, putting down folks who don't see eye to eye with him isn't acceptable in my book. Ever. I simply won't tolerate it.

We both want the best for the pilot group, and are pilot first, but see vastly different ways to get there.

I think (hope) things will improve come friday-- regardless of the result.

pilotpayne
07-22-2018, 04:40 PM
You just realize that you just called about 65% - 70% of the pilot group stupid, right?

Um thatís pretty much what he thinks anyway

FollowMe
07-22-2018, 04:41 PM
He is absolutely fighting for us. No doubt. Apologize if I said something to make you feel different.

That said, I disagree with his tactics 100%. We both support the MEC, want the best for the group, etc. However, putting down folks who don't see eye to eye with him isn't acceptable in my book. Ever.

I think (hope) things will improve come friday-- regardless of the result.

Copy. I just see so much angst directed towards Q, when all that I see is him wanting the best for his peers. Didnít mean to implicate you are the source, maybe just the timing and happenstance that I quoted you.

Bottom line for me, every labor group needs itís ďQísĒ, without them the company line can go uncontested.

seekingblue
07-22-2018, 04:46 PM
Copy. I just see so much angst directed towards Q, when all that I see is him wanting the best for his peers. Didnít mean to implicate you are the source, maybe just the timing and happenstance that I quoted you.

Bottom line for me, every labor group needs itís ďQísĒ, without them the company line can go uncontested.

I agree.

I like that Queue makes you think. He fights for the group and makes you think. That said- He puts down people (good, pilot supporting, lanyard wearing folks) who disagree with him. It's that piece I won't stand for. We all want the best for this contract and for our pilots in general, but putting others down isn't the way

FollowMe
07-22-2018, 04:59 PM
I agree.

I like that Queue makes you think. He fights for the group and makes you think. That said- He puts down people (good, pilot supporting, lanyard wearing folks) who disagree with him. It's that piece I won't stand for. We all want the best for this contract and for our pilots in general, but putting others down isn't the way

I guess I may be guilty of dismissing any insults from Q. I empathize with his frustration at not getting through to the very people you are trying to help. Itís like talking to an obese person who eats fast food for three meals a day, you want them to get better but at some point itís hard not to insult them when they refuse to stop eating fast food.

I appreciate that you are working in your own way for the betterment of your pilot group.

queue
07-22-2018, 05:37 PM
I agree.

I like that Queue makes you think. He fights for the group and makes you think. That said- He puts down people (good, pilot supporting, lanyard wearing folks) who disagree with him. It's that piece I won't stand for. We all want the best for this contract and for our pilots in general, but putting others down isn't the way


It's the behavior, not the people. You won't get that reading soundbites from me online. But I'm not here to defend myself or win a popularity contest. No one ever did anything significant without breaking a few eggs. I've had the privilege of working with many teams in various disciplines in the past but none acted like most people here at BJ. I don't believe in putting lipstick on a pig just to win a popularity contest. That just makes you lose the war. There are stages to everything. We're still at Stage 1. People here are still far too worried about being offended rather than figuring out how to attack the real problems. That will change once they start winning.



BlueJet is a very easy adversary - they have many weaknesses and I wholeheartedly believe we could have industry leading dominance in no time. In the end, I will achieve my objectives regardless of the BJ pilot group. I simply come here to observe mostly as a sociological study. It also lets me form more effective strategies by being critiqued since my First Principle is that I could be wrong.



The book Catch-22 is a must read for our pilot group.



http://nadin4eblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/pablo-1-1024x512.png




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
07-23-2018, 01:38 PM
You just realize that you just called about 65% - 70% of the pilot group stupid, right?

OH. I didn't realize you had the voting results.

Now go back to voting yes for a bottom payrate TA full of loopholes and giveaways.

I will put the IQ results of the average no voter against the average yes voter any day.

Southerner
07-23-2018, 03:42 PM
OH. I didn't realize you had the voting results.

Now go back to voting yes for a bottom payrate TA full of loopholes and giveaways.

I will put the IQ results of the average no voter against the average yes voter any day.

We shall see what the vote turns out to be.

Don't confuse your anger for intelligence. No doubt, you're angry, but that doesn't make you intelligent. It does make you a bit of a blowhard.

If you want to be heard, be rational. There are rational arguments to be made for a no vote. It's an individual decision, and those who vote no for their good reasons are fine by me. But when a guy calls fellow pilot stupid for voting yes, or for thinking differently from him, well, that just shows your own lack of intelligence.

PasserOGas
07-23-2018, 04:47 PM
We shall see what the vote turns out to be.

Don't confuse your anger for intelligence. No doubt, you're angry, but that doesn't make you intelligent. It does make you a bit of a blowhard.

If you want to be heard, be rational. There are rational arguments to be made for a no vote. It's an individual decision, and those who vote no for their good reasons are fine by me. But when a guy calls fellow pilot stupid for voting yes, or for thinking differently from him, well, that just shows your own lack of intelligence.

It's an objectively bad contract. The pay places us at the bottom of our peers within 1 year. I haven't met a yes voter yet who actually knew what was is it with the exception of those on this board.

I'm in kind of a foul mood. I just got off a 4 day with a yes voter who told me I needed to "Know my place as an LCC pilot.", and "The TA pay is too high, we need to be paid less or we will go bankrupt.".

When I asked him his thoughts on things like the new reserve rules and retirement he had no idea what was in those sections.

That second part is a trend item with the yes crowd. They are always surprised to find out about snack box lunches or airport standby, or whatever.

They know they get a small raise though. It's all they seem to care about.

Softpayman
07-23-2018, 05:09 PM
They are always surprised to find out about snack box lunches or airport standby, or whatever.



They're surprised that you don't know what airport standby is. They've either been at carriers that had airport standby or they've seen the tent cities in our crew rooms with FA's doing airport standby. Most of us know the difference between that, and what's in the TA.

You sure are persistent though.

Southerner
07-23-2018, 06:01 PM
It's an objectively bad contract. The pay places us at the bottom of our peers within 1 year. I haven't met a yes voter yet who actually knew what was is it with the exception of those on this board.

I'm in kind of a foul mood. I just got off a 4 day with a yes voter who told me I needed to "Know my place as an LCC pilot.", and "The TA pay is too high, we need to be paid less or we will go bankrupt.".

When I asked him his thoughts on things like the new reserve rules and retirement he had no idea what was in those sections.

That second part is a trend item with the yes crowd. They are always surprised to find out about snack box lunches or airport standby, or whatever.

They know they get a small raise though. It's all they seem to care about.

You may think it's objectively bad, and others may not. Different priorities, and all that... The fact remains that calling the rest of us stupid is, at best, counterproductive.

It's gonna pass. You should start accepting that now.

PasserOGas
07-23-2018, 06:23 PM
You may think it's objectively bad, and others may not. Different priorities, and all that... The fact remains that calling the rest of us stupid is, at best, counterproductive.

It's gonna pass. You should start accepting that now.

Of course it will pass. This is the group that took 3 votes to get ALPA on property. Twice management lied to them to keep a union off property, immediately breaking promises immediately after the drive was over and still 25% of them voted to stay non union.

The NC and MEC were supposed to be the gatekeepers, protecting this idiotic, self defeating group from itself. They failed.

They could have handed us the literal current PEA with a 5% raise and it would have passed.

Actually, they kinda did exactly that.

Southerner
07-23-2018, 07:19 PM
Of course it will pass. This is the group that took 3 votes to get ALPA on property. Twice management lied to them to keep a union off property, immediately breaking promises immediately after the drive was over and still 25% of them voted to stay non union.

The NC and MEC were supposed to be the gatekeepers, protecting this idiotic, self defeating group from itself. They failed.

They could have handed us the literal current PEA with a 5% raise and it would have passed.

Actually, they kinda did exactly that.

See, I don't feel that way. I think the scope and work rules are a dramatic improvement. Our MEC/NC did exactly what the surveys indicated, and now it will pass.

Face it, your priorities were not represented in the surveys. So vote no. That's your right. But that doesn't mean that our union failed or that those with other priorities are stupid.

hockeypilot44
07-23-2018, 07:23 PM
According to the FAA you performed duty, which at some point made some of the flying you did illegal.

Those who dismiss Queue do so at their peril...

Please. You and I both know this will never go anywhere with the FAA.

MGMTiswatchingU
07-24-2018, 05:45 AM
I'm in kind of a foul mood. I just got off a 4 day with a yes voter who told me I needed to "Know my place as an LCC pilot.", and "The TA pay is too high, we need to be paid less or we will go bankrupt.".


I agree with Southerner that you can't call someone stupid just because they have a differing opinion of the TA. Whatever is important for them in a TA is what will decide yes or no. Else the yes voters could be calling you stupid just because you have a differing opinion.

HOWEVER

The pilot you flew with, that said those words above, is probably partly responsible for voting against ALPA 2 times and in the 25% the 3rd time. It wouldn't surprise me if he/she refuse to pay dues/non member. It's my hope that the pilot is an outlier. We don't need views like that in the industry. There are other valid rationals that I atleast see on here for voting yes. That pilot's view was not one of them.

Begging to be paid less so the company can invest in more toys? Wow. Gotta keep that toys account from going bankrupt.

queue
07-24-2018, 06:30 AM
It's an objectively bad contract. The pay places us at the bottom of our peers within 1 year. I haven't met a yes voter yet who actually knew what was is it with the exception of those on this board.

I'm in kind of a foul mood. I just got off a 4 day with a yes voter who told me I needed to "Know my place as an LCC pilot.", and "The TA pay is too high, we need to be paid less or we will go bankrupt.".

When I asked him his thoughts on things like the new reserve rules and retirement he had no idea what was in those sections.

That second part is a trend item with the yes crowd. They are always surprised to find out about snack box lunches or airport standby, or whatever.

They know they get a small raise though. It's all they seem to care about.


They should be listening to the webcast Second Quarter Earnings Conference Call.



Priest said it they are buying aircraft in cash and other cost savings have allowed BJ to "return excess profit back to our owners." I'm so glad we settled for barely substandard Alaska rates... had we asked for a professional amount of compensation, we might have not been able to return excess cash to our owners :p



Ignorance is bliss... and super-dangerous for us.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-24-2018, 06:35 AM
I agree with Southerner that you can't call someone stupid just because they have a differing opinion of the TA. Whatever is important for them in a TA is what will decide yes or no. Else the yes voters could be calling you stupid just because you have a differing opinion.

HOWEVER

The pilot you flew with, that said those words above, is probably partly responsible for voting against ALPA 2 times and in the 25% the 3rd time. It wouldn't surprise me if he/she refuse to pay dues/non member. It's my hope that the pilot is an outlier. We don't need views like that in the industry. There are other valid rationals that I atleast see on here for voting yes. That pilot's view was not one of them.

Begging to be paid less so the company can invest in more toys? Wow. Gotta keep that toys account from going bankrupt.


So what can you call a differing opinion that results in substandard rates and rules? ("wrong"?)



Also, see above regarding the earnings call. BJ pulled another fast one of us because our own pilots keep falling for false arguments, scare mongering tactics, and of course a failure to act to put pressure on BJ to get paid what you're worth.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

MGMTiswatchingU
07-24-2018, 08:54 AM
So what can you call a differing opinion that results in substandard rates and rules? ("wrong"?)



Again, that's your opinion and you have the right to vote how you see fit based on your conclusion. The next fellow has his/her right to vote too. If he/she sees value in this TA and dont consider the work rules and pay rates substandard (based on what will affect him/her) then they'll throw in a yes vote. Does it make them stupid/defeatist/apologist/regional mentality pilots because they don't see it your way? Come on now.

That's my point

cmesoar
07-24-2018, 09:54 AM
Again, that's your opinion and you have the right to vote how you see fit based on your conclusion. The next fellow has his/her right to vote too. If he/she sees value in this TA and dont consider the work rules and pay rates substandard (based on what will affect him/her) then they'll throw in a yes vote. Does it make them stupid/defeatist/apologist/regional mentality pilots because they don't see it your way? Come on now.

That's my point

If we vote this TA down after today’s earnings news, there is NOTHING to stop the company from attacking the FSM to control COSTS. Giggity will do it I believe, I don’t trust her. (Or any of them for that matter). Example, Extended into a day off.. sorry straight pay, cost control. Who gives a flying [email protected]$ about crossing some seatbelts then. I hope I am wrong if we vote the TA down, but my YES vote is decided and locked in.

Bluedriver
07-24-2018, 10:11 AM
If we vote this TA down after todayís earnings news, there is NOTHING to stop the company from attacking the FSM to control COSTS. Giggity will do it I believe, I donít trust her. (Or any of them for that matter). Example, Extended into a day off.. sorry straight pay, cost control. Who gives a flying [email protected]$ about crossing some seatbelts then. I hope I am wrong if we vote the TA down, but my YES vote is decided and locked in.

Relax, the contract is going to pass. The earnings report isn't that scary in context.

But yes, not everyone, including many investors understand the context.

3rd quarter should be more in-line with peers, unless our operation continues to be industry worst by a mile. Oh crud, who's got that phone number for the truck driving school again?

cmesoar
07-24-2018, 12:27 PM
Relax, the contract is going to pass. The earnings report isn't that scary in context.

But yes, not everyone, including many investors understand the context.

3rd quarter should be more in-line with peers, unless our operation continues to be industry worst by a mile. Oh crud, who's got that phone number for the truck driving school again?

Haha! Yeah I am sure it will bounce back in a few weeks.