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View Full Version : December vacancy awards


Clint
07-20-2018, 09:45 AM
The latest vacancy award (effective December) was just released. For those looking for DFW, there are a ton of junior DFW inbound 737 folks, many of whom have less than a year of service. Several folks under a year going to BOS as well. Not much (any?) movement into CLT or PHX.


mainlineAF
07-20-2018, 10:04 AM
Group 2 captain down to mid 13 hires.

UPTme
07-20-2018, 10:13 AM
The movement we've all been waiting for!


Covfefe
07-20-2018, 11:09 AM
The numbers on the award are the old numbers... if you look up the jr 320CA award, heís 11376 on the new list... pretty close to where Jr CA sits now. The good news is that most people went up 600 numbers!

N10DJ
07-20-2018, 11:12 AM
Last person to get into Charlotte was a March 2017 hire. Going to be close to 2 years(if not more) to get in.

Just based on the seniority numbers of the upgrades, new hires would be able to hold group II CA after 4 years :eek:

mainlineAF
07-20-2018, 11:57 AM
The numbers on the award are the old numbers... if you look up the jr 320CA award, heís 11376 on the new list... pretty close to where Jr CA sits now. The good news is that most people went up 600 numbers!



True. But the junior g2 captain on this award was 500ish numbers from holding junior g2 captain on the last award.

So basically there was significant movement.

Centurion
07-20-2018, 12:13 PM
The latest vacancy award (effective December) was just released. For those looking for DFW, there are a ton of junior DFW inbound 737 folks, many of whom have less than a year of service. Several folks under a year going to BOS as well. Not much (any?) movement into CLT or PHX.


I saw that in regards to PHX. I put in a bid for that but didnít get it. I thought I could move on over if there are guys junior to me at PHX. I knew I wasnít going to get DFW so PHX for me is a little closer to home and thought I could try for it.

Itís great to see all this movement!

Craigmac3030
07-20-2018, 12:22 PM
How often does AA have vacancy awards??

PRS Guitars
07-20-2018, 12:37 PM
I saw that in regards to PHX. I put in a bid for that but didnít get it. I thought I could move on over if there are guys junior to me at PHX. I knew I wasnít going to get DFW so PHX for me is a little closer to home and thought I could try for it.

Itís great to see all this movement!

No, there has to be a vacancy, otherwise jr guys could just keep getting kicked from base to base. If a vacancy was awarded to someone jr to you, different story, you need to call the union.

Centurion
07-20-2018, 12:41 PM
No, there has to be a vacancy, otherwise jr guys could just keep getting kicked from base to base. If a vacancy was awarded to someone jr to you, different story, you need to call the union.

Thanks for the clarification. No it was NHs. Iím just happy to be here!

Name User
07-20-2018, 01:44 PM
I saw that in regards to PHX. I put in a bid for that but didnít get it. I thought I could move on over if there are guys junior to me at PHX. I knew I wasnít going to get DFW so PHX for me is a little closer to home and thought I could try for it.

Itís great to see all this movement!

One of the nice things about displacement rights is the ability to go anywhere that someone junior to you is at AND not have a seat lock.

Rawhide16
07-20-2018, 01:48 PM
How often does AA have vacancy awards??

About every 3 months since we stopped doing them monthly.

Name User
07-20-2018, 01:49 PM
The numbers on the award are the old numbers... if you look up the jr 320CA award, heís 11376 on the new list... pretty close to where Jr CA sits now. The good news is that most people went up 600 numbers!

It's 600 junior to that. Old numbers the award is for 11.9 guys. That's pretty crazy. I really didn't think it would go that junior but maybe we're seeing what Delta was seeing. Lots of newer, younger guys who are bypassing now because they have 30+ years left and no desire to commute to sit reserve in NY.

Personally I know, unless things drastically change, I won't be bidding NY CA on anything ever. That place is a cesspool. Being based there for six weeks was enough!

RyanP
07-20-2018, 02:12 PM
777 FO down to 12,395

mainlineAF
07-20-2018, 02:36 PM
It's 600 junior to that. Old numbers the award is for 11.9 guys. That's pretty crazy. I really didn't think it would go that junior but maybe we're seeing what Delta was seeing. Lots of newer, younger guys who are bypassing now because they have 30+ years left and no desire to commute to sit reserve in NY.



Personally I know, unless things drastically change, I won't be bidding NY CA on anything ever. That place is a cesspool. Being based there for six weeks was enough!



Ya but for 270/hr Iíd sit short call in Afghanistan. So nyc is no biggie to me.

EMBFlyer
07-20-2018, 04:44 PM
777 FO down to 12,395

In DFW, no less!

Dobbs18
07-20-2018, 05:12 PM
In DFW, no less!

I think it was LGA 777 FO...

Name User
07-20-2018, 06:30 PM
I think it was LGA 777 FO...

12345 was DFW, not a huge difference

Name User
07-20-2018, 06:34 PM
Ya but for 270/hr Iíd sit short call in Afghanistan. So nyc is no biggie to me.

On the plus side it probably won't be for long

Cheddar
07-21-2018, 05:35 AM
CLT is now the most senior of the NB/WB was bases. ORD and DFW are neck and neck for a distant second.

This is the first of the really big Ďmovementí bids. A friend of mine got the 777 in DFW and we was over a hundred away on the Aug bid. On this bid, he got it and so do almost 60 below him! Heís going to be a lineholder instantaneously.

I was over 2900 away from the 777 in DFW in the Aug bid - Iím now less than 800... and the movement hasnít even begun in earnest yet.

PRS Guitars
07-21-2018, 06:00 AM
CLT is now the most senior of the NB/WB was bases. ORD and DFW are neck and neck for a distant second.

This is the first of the really big ‘movement’ bids. A friend of mine got the 777 in DFW and we was over a hundred away on the Aug bid. On this bid, he got it and so do almost 60 below him! He’s going to be a lineholder instantaneously.

I was over 2900 away from the 777 in DFW in the Aug bid - I’m now less than 800... and the movement hasn’t even begun in earnest yet.

Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to be 300ish from DFW 777. Now I actually have to start thinking about a move (equipment, not family), it was all notional before:cool:.

mainlineAF
07-21-2018, 06:02 AM
I hope this movement continues on the next bid. Any ideas when the next bid may be?

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 06:21 AM
I hope this movement continues on the next bid. Any ideas when the next bid may be?

So far the cycle has been March-June-September-December.

As the financial ads are required to say "past performance is no guarantee of future performance."

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 06:23 AM
I hope this movement continues on the next bid. Any ideas when the next bid may be?

What did the message say, something like over 1,000 people moved around? That's a bunch. Roughly 7%. On an annual basis that's 27%.

Cheddar
07-21-2018, 06:27 AM
Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to be 300ish from DFW 777. Now I actually have to start thinking about a move (equipment, not family), it was all notional before:cool:.



Donít you dare!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RhinoBallAuto
07-21-2018, 06:33 AM
I think it is worth considering, the bids are targeting vacancies that exist approximately 4-6 months in the future. We tend to think of retirements in an yearly framework, but in reality, there could be months where there are huge changes to the bid statuses, and some less huge, based solely on how many butts are anticipated to leave seats on that 4-6 month horizon. Adding to that is the unknown master plan for new hire assignments... (which admittedly has less impact on the WB conversation)

Just food for thought.

Edit: there may be smaller runs as a result of training capacity as well

airlinegypsy
07-21-2018, 07:34 AM
12345 was DFW, not a huge difference



Wow! Thatís the same combination I have on my luggage!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OVBIII
07-21-2018, 07:38 AM
Wow! Thatís the same combination I have on my luggage!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for for the laugh!!! Much needed!

AAL24
07-21-2018, 07:42 AM
Ya but for 270/hr Iíd sit short call in Afghanistan. So nyc is no biggie to me.

Dude you shouldnít Telegraph how happy you are with certain parts of the contract. Our agreement is woefully inadequate until all sections are brought up to industry standard or better. That should be the mantra that management hears. :)

LIOG41
07-21-2018, 10:27 AM
The vacancy announcement wasn't anything exciting but the results proved otherwise.

How do they assign training? Seniority?

Covfefe
07-21-2018, 10:55 AM
Are previous vacancy awards saved anywhere?

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 11:06 AM
The vacancy announcement wasn't anything exciting but the results proved otherwise.

How do they assign training? Seniority?

It's either the Ouija board or the Magic 8 ball. Seriously.
They look at who's leaving the same bid status, who's going where, what their Zodiac sign is, etc, etc. But you can always ask and the worst they can do is ignore your request which is where you were before you asked.

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 11:18 AM
Junior FO's DOH -

BOS 2/2018
DCA 6/2018
DFW 1/2018
ORD 8/2014
PHX 7/2017

CLT - 3/2017

JFK, LAX, MIA, PHL (190) going to new hires.

CLT/PHL 320 openings have dried up. No movement(PHL had one guy come in on the 320). If newbies want to get to PHL the 190 is the way to do it. How knows how many guys are asking for the PHL 320 bid??

MrObvious
07-21-2018, 12:35 PM
Junior FO's DOH -

BOS 2/2018
DCA 6/2018
DFW 1/2018
ORD 8/2014
PHX 7/2017

CLT - 3/2017

JFK, LAX, MIA, PHL (190) going to new hires.

CLT/PHL 320 openings have dried up. No movement(PHL had one guy come in on the 320). If newbies want to get to PHL the 190 is the way to do it. How knows how many guys are asking for the PHL 320 bid??

Is that ord number correct? Does that mean the most junior fo at ord was hired 4 years ago?

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 12:58 PM
That was the current movement eff 1 December.
Junior ORD is 5/2017 from a previous bid.

For unknown reasons CLT and PHL 320 FO has has little movement. But DFW 777 FO suddenly gains 20% entirely at the bottom of the bid status. So movement, or opportunity, isnít linear. Which is a good remember of the airline truism ďif you want it bid it.Ē Guy held off on bidding for his upgrade to have the summer off in 2001. That decision delayed his upgrade for about 6-7 years.

Name User
07-21-2018, 01:25 PM
I'm not totally up on how to read these things but what is the reason DFW777 went so junior? Did they add more positions? I hear that is a pretty sweet gig even on reserve.

I was also really surprised the Airbus CA in NYC went so junior, I wonder if they added positions there as well?

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 02:29 PM
I'm not totally up on how to read these things but what is the reason DFW777 went so junior? Did they add more positions? I hear that is a pretty sweet gig even on reserve.

I was also really surprised the Airbus CA in NYC went so junior, I wonder if they added positions there as well?

DFW? That's a good question and a bit of a surprise. A net gain of over 60 guys? Will the bid status grow by 20% over it's current size? For what flying? To where? Taking 787 flying?

JFK 320? Looks like a net gain of approx. 30+.

They said they're upgrading 229 CA's in this bid. That's over a 1,000 a year if the rate remains the same. NYC would expect to need approx. 92 CA's to cover their fair share of the expected upgrade demand. But is NYC, as a junior base, more prone to feeding upgrades through the school house as they bid out to other bases as soon as they can hold the other base? So you'd expect to see a larger training bubble for CA's in NYC as they're positioned prior to other CA's bidding out? IDK but that would be my guess.

Here's the crazy part - our retirements will increase by over 50% in 2023-2025 compared to next year's mandatory retirements. The era of big, or really big, vacancy runs might have started with bigger one's ahead.

TransWorld
07-21-2018, 02:48 PM
The next few years will simply take your breath away. And even passed the peak, large retirements will be sustained.

The industry will have not seen this radical movement since the dawn of the jet age (1950s/1960s). Seriously.

The only difference is your first assignment will not be sitting sideways!

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 03:10 PM
This year's retirement rate will continue through 2031. Fourteen years.
Last year's retirement rate will continue through 2034. Eighteen years.

The average career will be around 28 years. Guys will here the sucking sound of guys leaving for half of their career.

jhondoe
07-21-2018, 03:12 PM
That's great, but how in the efff will the schoolhouse keep up?

Covfefe
07-21-2018, 03:13 PM
That's great, but how in the efff will the schoolhouse keep up?


Easy. They wonít.

buffalo
07-21-2018, 03:31 PM
I think it was LGA 777 FO...

What's the most junior hire date on 777 LGA FO?

Covfefe
07-21-2018, 03:44 PM
What's the most junior hire date on 777 LGA FO?

Assuming you mean from the bid that just came out...
9/8/01

TransWorld
07-21-2018, 03:45 PM
That's great, but how in the efff will the schoolhouse keep up?

Build a bigger Schoolhouse. Run more classes. Hire more instructors. Add more sims. Add more check airmen.

I have seen school districts in building-boom suburbs. It will be like them. Always running a bit behind. But coping fairly well. In booming Frisco (affluent north suburb of Dallas) they have 9 high schools. Been opening a new h.s. every year or two. 10th opens this fall. 11th starting construction. Land purchased for several more.

Sliceback
07-21-2018, 03:55 PM
What's the most junior hire date on 777 LGA FO?

Heís 12,395.

12,487 starts the October 2013 hiring.

So itís under 100 numbers from jumping from 2001 to 2013.

12,621 starts the 2014 hiring cycle.

All Ďoldí seniority numbers. New seniority numbers are out but havenít been officially implemented.

Thedude86
07-21-2018, 05:13 PM
Any idea what the most junior long call reserve and line holding 777 FO is?

Covfefe
07-21-2018, 06:00 PM
Any idea what the most junior long call reserve and line holding 777 FO is?

Too lazy to pull it up now, but the bottom 5 or so guys in LGA are long call. Above that are a couple guys with a 88hr or so line. LC usually goes junior, but it varies month to month.

mainlineAF
07-21-2018, 06:27 PM
Assuming you mean from the bid that just came out...

9/8/01



This is prob confusing to outsiders. That junior LGA 777 fo may be a 9/01 hire, but there are guys senior to him who were hired in 2013.

nAAtive
07-21-2018, 09:44 PM
This is prob confusing to outsiders. That junior LGA 777 fo may be a 9/01 hire, but there are guys senior to him who were hired in 2013.

What you just said points out how wrong the sli was....

meyers9163
07-22-2018, 04:16 AM
What you just said points out how wrong the sli was....

In many regards but as those LAA got theirs at the top and LUS didnít. Some on the bottom got hosed. Add in the LAWA we can all just move on and agree nothing ever is perfect.

Sliceback
07-22-2018, 04:56 AM
Any idea what the most junior long call reserve and line holding 777 FO is?

Junior G4 FO line holder typically is very close to being able to hold CA. I've posted the junior CA data so a line holding G4 FO is close to that. That's about your answer for each base.

In DFW and LGA(JFK) the difference between junior CA and line holding 777 FO was 100-150 numbers for August.

For a snapshot of today that's close enough. It might, and could, change.

ORDinary
07-22-2018, 05:30 AM
Junior FO's DOH -

BOS 2/2018
DCA 6/2018
DFW 1/2018
ORD 8/2014
PHX 7/2017

CLT - 3/2017

JFK, LAX, MIA, PHL (190) going to new hires.

CLT/PHL 320 openings have dried up. No movement(PHL had one guy come in on the 320). If newbies want to get to PHL the 190 is the way to do it. How knows how many guys are asking for the PHL 320 bid??

Congrats to everyone (except ORD..)

m78fl370
07-22-2018, 10:15 AM
In many regards but as those LAA got theirs at the top and LUS didnít. Some on the bottom got hosed. Add in the LAWA we can all just move on and agree nothing ever is perfect.

Nobody took it in the shorts like the poor TWA guys though. 2012 hires senior to some of them.

meyers9163
07-22-2018, 01:53 PM
Nobody took it in the shorts like the poor TWA guys though. 2012 hires senior to some of them.

Think itís all perspective. Relative seniority is relative seniority. However ask those 88-90 hires at LUS who are 5000 numbers behind others same year? So again many Can complain and did. However letís move on. Many have indeed.

SilverandSore
07-22-2018, 02:10 PM
What you just said points out how wrong the sli was....


Exactly! Should have stapled the legacy guys, they were, after all, in bankruptcy! Amiright!!? :D

Rawhide16
07-22-2018, 04:25 PM
What does the merger and SLI have to do with the Dec vacancy award? Take it outside fellas.

N10DJ
07-22-2018, 04:34 PM
Two questions. How are they determining the LUS east pilots who get one of the SLI gp 4 bids.
It seems like it went extremely junior.. unless they all are seriously that junior.

Second, when does the seat lock start if they withhold you.

meyers9163
07-22-2018, 05:00 PM
Two questions. How are they determining the LUS east pilots who get one of the SLI gp 4 bids.
It seems like it went extremely junior.. unless they all are seriously that junior.

Second, when does the seat lock start if they withhold you.

They would have been a lot closer at stand alone LUS. Problem is when the SLI staggers things greatly you then have huge numbers of LAA pilots between LUS pilots who are entitled to those jobs because of them SLI language. Same complaint the above guy had about TWA pilots between 2013 hires. The list worked out that way.... It is what it is.

mainlineAF
07-22-2018, 06:32 PM
Two questions. How are they determining the LUS east pilots who get one of the SLI gp 4 bids.

It seems like it went extremely junior.. unless they all are seriously that junior.



Second, when does the seat lock start if they withhold you.



If i remember correctly thereís a set number of g4 captain positions that have to go to LUS pilots. Thatís the number of g4 captain seats that LUS brought to the merger. As LAA pilots bid to the 330 that opens up 787/777 spots for LUS guys. That number is protected for 5 years from SLI i believe.

Your seat lock starts when you are released
from your withhold. So if you get a position on the June bid but are withheld and then released on the December bid your seat lock starts in December.

N10DJ
07-22-2018, 06:41 PM
If i remember correctly thereís a set number of g4 captain positions that have to go to LUS pilots. Thatís the number of g4 captain seats that LUS brought to the merger. As LAA pilots bid to the 330 that opens up 787/777 spots for LUS guys. That number is protected for 5 years from SLI i believe.

Your seat lock starts when you are released
from your withhold. So if you get a position on the June bid but are withheld and then released on the December bid your seat lock starts in December.

I was afraid you would say that. Here's to hoping I get released sooner rather than later. Thanks

Sliceback
07-22-2018, 07:13 PM
What does the merger and SLI have to do with the Dec vacancy award? Take it outside fellas.

The merger and SLI has everything to do with the December vacancy award.

Twenty former LUS guys got G4 CA awards that by pure seniority would have gone to more senior LAA pilots. But the SLI has a minimum number of G4 CA jobs (183) protected for the LUS guys until the end of 2020. The trigger was met which meant the 20 LUS guys, regardless of their overall ability to hold G4 CA, were awarded a G4 slot. The junior guy is #4600, or 1200+ below the junior G4 CA company wide and 2300 numbers junior to the current junior guy in his new bid status.

Sliceback
07-22-2018, 07:19 PM
If i remember correctly thereís a set number of g4 captain positions that have to go to LUS pilots. Thatís the number of g4 captain seats that LUS brought to the merger. As LAA pilots bid to the 330 that opens up 787/777 spots for LUS guys. That number is protected for 5 years from SLI i believe.

Your seat lock starts when you are released
from your withhold. So if you get a position on the June bid but are withheld and then released on the December bid your seat lock starts in December.

Actually it's not LAA guys bidding the 330 that creates the opening. It's LUS guys retiring off of the 330. LAA guys took about 33 (?) of the first retirements before the floor was reached. Now that the floor has been reached each LUS G4 retirement (mostly 330's but perhaps some have gone to the 777/787) will generate another LUS guy getting a G4 CA award. Their overall seniority number doesn't matter, it's only a bidding war among LUS guys competing among themselves with their seniority numbers for the G4 CA jobs. The floor protection expires at the end of 2020.

Andrew_VT
07-22-2018, 07:27 PM
It was the LAA merger committee that was the most gung-ho for fences. LUS proposed some minor fences, and LAW obviously didn't want any.

LUS has the most retirements percentage wise for the next few years. Blame the LAA merger committee...

nAAtive
07-22-2018, 08:21 PM
Exactly! Should have stapled the legacy guys, they were, after all, in bankruptcy! Amiright!!? :D

Whole thing is pure bologna.

N10DJ
07-22-2018, 09:56 PM
Actually it's not LAA guys bidding the 330 that creates the opening. It's LUS guys retiring off of the 330. LAA guys took about 33 (?) of the first retirements before the floor was reached. Now that the floor has been reached each LUS G4 retirement (mostly 330's but perhaps some have gone to the 777/787) will generate another LUS guy getting a G4 CA award. Their overall seniority number doesn't matter, it's only a bidding war among LUS guys competing among themselves with their seniority numbers for the G4 CA jobs. The floor protection expires at the end of 2020.

So they can switch to group 4, But then sit at the bottom of the respective list as LAA guys do eventually get upgrade slots? Makes sense and sounds messy all at the same time. Iíll stick to my current simplicity of being a FNG haha. No more mergers please :rolleyes:

Rawhide16
07-23-2018, 03:07 AM
The merger and SLI has everything to do with the December vacancy award.

Twenty former LUS guys got G4 CA awards that by pure seniority would have gone to more senior LAA pilots. But the SLI has a minimum number of G4 CA jobs (183) protected for the LUS guys until the end of 2020. The trigger was met which meant the 20 LUS guys, regardless of their overall ability to hold G4 CA, were awarded a G4 slot. The junior guy is #4600, or 1200+ below the junior G4 CA company wide and 2300 numbers junior to the current junior guy in his new bid status.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

Sliceback
07-23-2018, 05:28 AM
So they can switch to group 4, But then sit at the bottom of the respective list as LAA guys do eventually get upgrade slots? Makes sense and sounds messy all at the same time. I’ll stick to my current simplicity of being a FNG haha. No more mergers please :rolleyes:

Yes, they're the plugs until their seniority advances to the point that guys junior to them start to hold the job.

Don't cry for guys sitting reserve on a G4 airplane. For all the bases, excluding PHL, it's a fantastic deal. You rarely break reserve guarantee and for that you get 89/93 hrs of G2 pay that a guy slogging the domestic system has to hustle for. And in good months you fly 6-12 days. Great months are 3-6 days.

PHL is a great deal in the off season but the kicker is that PHL has turns and two day trips. Except for one two day trip out of JFK, that rarely goes to reserve, the other flying is all 3-4 day trips. So excluding PHL if you wake up on the morning of your 3rd to last day on call, and you don't have a trip, there's huge probability that you're off for the next three days because there are no regular trips you can fly. Rescue trips, ferry, maintenance, etc can tag you but those are low probability events.

Sliceback
07-23-2018, 05:30 AM
Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

No problem. Sometimes understanding the past is like trying to get an octopus out of a hair ball, especially with mergers and SLI's.

Covfefe
07-23-2018, 12:18 PM
So anyone have intel, insight or thoughts on if the next awards are going to keep pace with this last one? Of course, Iím sure we all hope so... Iím wondering if weíre approaching the DL super junior NB captains and jr WB FOs (I think UAL is a few yrs to WB??)... Before the awards, they mentioned 229 new captains. If I look at things right, from the jr guy from last bid to the jr guy this bid, there are 592 numbers... so for 229 upgrades they went through 592 pilots!

Iím thinking things might back off a bit, but I sure hope not!

meyers9163
07-23-2018, 01:20 PM
I was afraid you would say that. Here's to hoping I get released sooner rather than later. Thanks

Depending what your concern is.... You can always get out of a lock with your initial upgrade..... Something to keep in mind.....

Smoke Toliet
07-23-2018, 01:31 PM
So anyone have intel, insight or thoughts on if the next awards are going to keep pace with this last one? Of course, Iím sure we all hope so... Iím wondering if weíre approaching the DL super junior NB captains and jr WB FOs (I think UAL is a few yrs to WB??)... Before the awards, they mentioned 229 new captains. If I look at things right, from the jr guy from last bid to the jr guy this bid, there are 592 numbers... so for 229 upgrades they went through 592 pilots!

Iím thinking things might back off a bit, but I sure hope not!


I donít have intel just an opinion but I think most were surprised with this award (777DFW was a eye opener). Now that people see whatís out there for them they might life plan a bit and take a upgrade or try G4 FO. So Iíd guess a little bit of a pull back on it (CA or G4 FO) going really junior. But I think that will be temporary. Hopefully we keep it going.

EMBFlyer
07-23-2018, 03:56 PM
I donít have intel just an opinion but I think most were surprised with this award (777DFW was a eye opener). Now that people see whatís out there for them they might life plan a bit and take a upgrade or try G4 FO. So Iíd guess a little bit of a pull back on it (CA or G4 FO) going really junior. But I think that will be temporary. Hopefully we keep it going.

Yep! Happens every bid. Something goes crazy junior and then it doesn't happen again for a while. I'm still kicking myself for not keeping my DFW777 bid in. I would have held it (or at least an entitlement to it, since I'm currently locked on the 737).

QuagmireGiggity
07-24-2018, 04:59 AM
So anyone have intel, insight or thoughts on if the next awards are going to keep pace with this last one? Of course, Iím sure we all hope so... Iím wondering if weíre approaching the DL super junior NB captains and jr WB FOs (I think UAL is a few yrs to WB??)... Before the awards, they mentioned 229 new captains. If I look at things right, from the jr guy from last bid to the jr guy this bid, there are 592 numbers... so for 229 upgrades they went through 592 pilots!

Iím thinking things might back off a bit, but I sure hope not!
Doubt it. .there's a training bump in winter months. This is to get ready for the next summer.

mainlineAF
07-24-2018, 06:40 AM
Doubt it. .there's a training bump in winter months. This is to get ready for the next summer.



Yea but this isnít for training in winter. This is for September, October and November training.

My understanding is that unless you got withheld they will have you trained by the effective date of the bid. Which is December 1 on this bid.

Buzzlightyear
07-25-2018, 01:18 PM
Yea but this isnít for training in winter. This is for September, October and November training.

My understanding is that unless you got withheld they will have you trained by the effective date of the bid. Which is December 1 on this bid.
These are the training start months. Training for a long course takes around six weeks depending on IOE scheduling. So a mid to late October class date will affect Thanksgiving and mid November start will affect Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years.

Sliceback
07-25-2018, 06:01 PM
Yea but this isnít for training in winter. This is for September, October and November training.

My understanding is that unless you got withheld they will have you trained by the effective date of the bid. Which is December 1 on this bid.

You have to finish training within 30 days of the award. So you can start in late November for a December award. Sec 17.R.????

meyers9163
07-26-2018, 04:57 AM
You have to finish training within 30 days of the award. So you can start in late November for a December award. Sec 17.R.????

No......

I.e. 190 FOs held for a year.

viper548
07-26-2018, 05:07 AM
No......

I.e. 190 FOs held for a year.
If they are not going to send you to training you are given a withhold award. On a subsequent award you will be given a released award.

meyers9163
07-26-2018, 09:23 AM
If they are not going to send you to training you are given a withhold award. On a subsequent award you will be given a released award.

Kind of. But with the new way the final award has it all spelled out when your training date will be if given a preference award. However the above didnít spell out withholds, preference, displacement etc. It made it sound like it was all lumped together.

Thedude86
08-11-2018, 11:49 AM
Would anybody have a rough idea of how many pilots are staffed per category? As in the number of pilots in group 2, 3, and 4? Do they staff them evenly? I would assume group 4 would need more pilots, but since that aircraft typically will just fly once or twice a day Iím guessing maybe it evens out.

AFTrainerGuy
08-11-2018, 01:55 PM
Would anybody have a rough idea of how many pilots are staffed per category? As in the number of pilots in group 2, 3, and 4? Do they staff them evenly? I would assume group 4 would need more pilots, but since that aircraft typically will just fly once or twice a day Iím guessing maybe it evens out.

I think itís in the vacancy announcement... per plane, per base, etc....

Pretty sure thatís where I saw it. Probably on AAPilots somewhere else too but Iím pretty sure itís in vacancy

Sliceback
08-11-2018, 05:19 PM
APA used to probably view that data to the membership. Status 15 report. If it’s still provided to the members I can’t find it. The last Status 15 report under the Ops Analysis Page is September 2015.

aapilots crew age by fleet shows you the number of pilots in each fleet. AMR 10Q(K?) report should have the fleet totals.

Off the top of my head G2 is typically around 12, G3 around 15-16, and G4 21-24.

Cheddar
08-11-2018, 06:13 PM
Not sure what the ratio is per fleet - as Slice said itís hard to find. I do know that we are the least staffed/per aircraft and it shows on the line.

The latest crew news went into staffing and schoolhouse instructor shortages. Having just finished a course in a dying jet, I can honestly say there wasnít more than two days in a row that my GS instructors werenít picking up overtime, and the sim Pís and CKA were constantly taking phone calls in the sim by scheduling asking them to do doubles the next day. It looked to me like Isom was just finding out during the crew news [emoji51]

Below are the ratios of aircraft/crew (non fleet specific) as of end of July.

AA - 951/14599 - 15.35
DAL - 875/14,600 - 16.68
UAL - 730/12,517 - 17.14




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ORDinary
08-11-2018, 07:23 PM
AA - 951/14599 - 15.35
DAL - 875/14,600 - 16.68
UAL - 730/12,517 - 17.14



UAL does more international than AA, right? That could partially account for the difference.

Laker24
08-11-2018, 07:33 PM
Correct. UAL has a much higher percentage of widebody aircraft than AAL.

Cheddar
08-12-2018, 06:43 AM
Correct. UAL has a much higher percentage of widebody aircraft than AAL.



Yes, and I think thatís why thereís more disparity in the ratio. We are much closer to DAL fleet wise.

School house is maxed out, manning in the training pipeline is maxed out, and schedulers are trying anything to get you on a trip - legal or otherwise. Weíre way behind the proverbial power curve and Iím not sure if our senior management knows the extent of the problem.


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redbaronahp
08-12-2018, 07:16 AM
New guy here from 18-16 class. Can someone post or send me a PM with the DECS/mobileFOS base preference bid codes? Thanks in advance.

Bob Loblaw
08-12-2018, 07:26 AM
3P/BASE/SEAT/EQUIPMENT/DIVISION

For example, 3P/DFW/CA/787/I

RhinoBallAuto
08-12-2018, 07:30 AM
New guy here from 18-16 class. Can someone post or send me a PM with the DECS/mobileFOS base preference bid codes? Thanks in advance.

AApilots > Pilot Hiring > Orientation > Pilot Vacancy Bidding (on right side)

TransWorld
08-12-2018, 07:31 AM
The math, from Cheddar’s numbers, above -

Using DAL 16.68 pilots per plane and AA 951 planes:

16.68 x 951 = 15,863 Pilots needed.

14,599 pilots today

15,863 - 14,599 = 1,264 Pilots needed to hire
in addition to increasing retirements/early outs/growth.

Hiring plans for this year are 900 (or 930). Mandatory retirement is 528. Doesn’t sound like much of this year’s hires is to improve, mostly hold the current pilots/plane.

Mandatory retirement ramps up to 957 in just a few years. And the Schoolhouse is maxed out today. Sounds like a big expansion is needed.

As the Chinese expression goes, ‘May you live in interesting times.’ And for the first time in decades, pilots are going to be in the driver’s seat (no pun intended).

Rawhide16
08-12-2018, 07:35 AM
schedulers are trying anything to get you on a trip - legal or otherwise.

Talking to my DAL buds and it appears as though theyíre in the same boat lately.

Cheddar
08-12-2018, 08:00 AM
The math, from Cheddarís numbers, above -

Using DAL 16.68 pilots per plane and AA 951 planes:

16.68 x 951 = 15,863 Pilots needed.

14,599 pilots today

15,863 - 14,599 = 1,264 Pilots needed to hire
in addition to increasing retirements/early outs/growth.

Hiring plans for this year are 900 (or 930). Mandatory retirement is 528. Doesnít sound like much of this yearís hires is to improve, mostly hold the current pilots/plane.

Mandatory retirement ramps up to 957 in just a few years. And the Schoolhouse is maxed out today. Sounds like a big expansion is needed.

As the Chinese expression goes, ĎMay you live in interesting times.í And for the first time in decades, pilots are going to be in the driverís seat (no pun intended).



Yeah, I think the airline is just starting to see how far in the hole we are.

As for the numbers, they are straight from the newest (8/18) APA contract comparison. I just did a bit of English major/iPhone math for the ratios!!!


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redbaronahp
08-12-2018, 04:36 PM
3P/BASE/SEAT/EQUIPMENT/DIVISION

For example, 3P/DFW/CA/787/I

AApilots > Pilot Hiring > Orientation > Pilot Vacancy Bidding (on right side)

Thank you! I got it entered. Iím trying to get out of LGA as quick as I can.

redbaronahp
08-12-2018, 04:39 PM
Yeah, I think the airline is just starting to see how far in the hole we are.

You say that but last week in class one of the VPís came in and said that hiring is now projected at 750 for the year. Hopefully they can find a way to get up to the 900-930 that they had been saying.

TransWorld
08-12-2018, 05:54 PM
You say that but last week in class one of the VP’s came in and said that hiring is now projected at 750 for the year. Hopefully they can find a way to get up to the 900-930 that they had been saying.

If hiring is projected to be 750, the rest of the classes would need to average 24, the lowest of any class all year. If that is the case, the first class in August resuming 40 in the class does not make sense.

Of course, I earlier heard hiring would be limited to 500. That would be less than current already starting in classes (529+/-) and less than the mandatory retirement number (528). So I have safely disregarded that forecast.

redbaronahp
08-12-2018, 06:10 PM
If hiring is projected to be 750, the rest of the classes would need to average 24, the lowest of any class all year. If that is the case, the first class in August resuming 40 in the class does not make sense.

Of course, I earlier heard hiring would be limited to 500. That would be less than current already starting in classes (529+/-) and less than the mandatory retirement number (528). So I have safely disregarded that forecast.

Typical management. Saying one thing and doing another.

Cheddar
08-12-2018, 06:26 PM
During crew news they said on track for 850-900. That was from VP of crew resources.


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Cheddar
08-12-2018, 06:29 PM
I also think thatís about 300 over this years retirements. Thatís hiring for 3% growth, so Iíd say we are trying to catch up but canít due to training issues. Weíre going to have issues when 900/year are leaving.


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ORDinary
08-12-2018, 06:58 PM
I also think thatís about 300 over this years retirements. Thatís hiring for 3% growth, so Iíd say we are trying to catch up but canít due to training issues. Weíre going to have issues when 900/year are leaving.


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If only somebody could have seen this coming.

Cheddar
08-12-2018, 08:31 PM
If only somebody could have seen this coming.



Well, we have top men working on this...

https://youtu.be/yoy4_h7Pb3M


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LordRatner
08-13-2018, 03:34 AM
Thank you! I got it entered. Iím trying to get out of LGA as quick as I can.I don't know your particular circumstances, but if you are going to be a commuter either way, LGA is a better deal than most appreciate. People are getting a line after only 1-2 months on reserve.

Just an FYI. I thought I'd be transferring as soon as possible, but now I'm staying until I can move to a domicile.

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Buzzlightyear
08-13-2018, 03:14 PM
You say that but last week in class one of the VPís came in and said that hiring is now projected at 750 for the year. Hopefully they can find a way to get up to the 900-930 that they had been saying.

As of two weeks ago Flight Admin was given the go ahead to process 930 NHís this year.

Name User
08-13-2018, 03:49 PM
As of two weeks ago Flight Admin was given the go ahead to process 930 NHís this year.

The one thing I am absolutely positive of is that one hand has no clue what the other hand is doing. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that too many cooks are in the kitchen with different ideas of what should be done.

TransWorld
08-13-2018, 05:17 PM
The one thing I am absolutely positive of is that one hand has no clue what the other hand is doing. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that too many cooks are in the kitchen with different ideas of what should be done.

I am absolutely positive one hand DOES have a clue what the other hand is doing. Beyond the core leadership involved, though, everyone has a different idea, including everyone here. Gossip is what mostly has gone around on here regarding hiring numbers.

I am confident some one makes the decision and communicates it. But it is not communicated widely, so gossip, guesses, and conjecture fills the void for everyone else.

It would be nice if the people making the decisions were to send an official announcement out with hiring numbers, even if it has to change later in the year. Then people could point to it. Whether they believed it would be another story, but at least there would be an announcement out there.

“What we’ve got here is a failure to communicate.” - Cool Hand Luke (1967 movie)

ORDinary
08-13-2018, 05:46 PM
Well, we have top men working on this...

https://youtu.be/yoy4_h7Pb3M



Ha, I feel about as reassured as Indy....

FlyyGuyy
08-13-2018, 06:00 PM
Anyone care to speculate on a 737 base in CLT in the future?

Looks like a I'll be a flow through next year since I haven't gotten the call anywhere else yet. Trying to determine what the future may hold for me.

redbaronahp
08-13-2018, 07:08 PM
I don't know your particular circumstances, but if you are going to be a commuter either way, LGA is a better deal than most appreciate. People are getting a line after only 1-2 months on reserve.

Just an FYI. I thought I'd be transferring as soon as possible, but now I'm staying until I can move to a domicile.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

On the 73 or the bus?

R57 relay
08-13-2018, 07:44 PM
Anyone care to speculate on a 737 base in CLT in the future?

Looks like a I'll be a flow through next year since I haven't gotten the call anywhere else yet. Trying to determine what the future may hold for me.

A recent video said no CLT 737 in the immediate future. Don't remember the definition of that.

FlyyGuyy
08-13-2018, 08:11 PM
A recent video said no CLT 737 in the immediate future. Don't remember the definition of that.

Well, I suppose that means I need to pray for an airbus slot when the day comes so I don't have to change equipment and base. Regardless, I'll just be happy to be there.

Thanks for the info.

airlinegypsy
08-13-2018, 09:39 PM
A recent video said no CLT 737 in the immediate future. Don't remember the definition of that.



I believe he said donít count on it in the 12-18 month range


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LordRatner
08-14-2018, 02:24 AM
On the 73 or the bus?737

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Name User
08-14-2018, 06:36 AM
Well, I suppose that means I need to pray for an airbus slot when the day comes so I don't have to change equipment and base. Regardless, I'll just be happy to be there.

Thanks for the info.

Unless things change drastically you'll be waiting a while anyway. Charlotte is a senior base. As an aside someone who can hold Airbus CA in NY will be 50% up the list on the FO side in CLT.

There are lots of people waiting for a slot there currently on property.

I would probably hope for E190 because the commute has a lot of flights and it would give you a line early on.

FlyyGuyy
08-14-2018, 07:00 AM
Unless things change drastically you'll be waiting a while anyway. Charlotte is a senior base. As an aside someone who can hold Airbus CA in NY will be 50% up the list on the FO side in CLT.

There are lots of people waiting for a slot there currently on property.

I would probably hope for E190 because the commute has a lot of flights and it would give you a line early on.

I have family in South Florida, so I was thinking Miami on the Airbus until I can hold something decent in Charlotte would be okay. I know South Florida can be a tough commute, but I can manage. Better thanscon commute.

QuagmireGiggity
08-14-2018, 02:32 PM
I have family in South Florida, so I was thinking Miami on the Airbus until I can hold something decent in Charlotte would be okay. I know South Florida can be a tough commute, but I can manage. Better thanscon commute.
You don't want to stay on the 73 either way it's horrible. Commute depends on where from. Easy commute from DFW to MIA.

Dobbs18
08-15-2018, 01:33 PM
Anyone care to speculate on a 737 base in CLT in the future?

Looks like a I'll be a flow through next year since I haven't gotten the call anywhere else yet. Trying to determine what the future may hold for me.

Most jr FO on bus in CLT is MAR 17 hire, most jr person to be awarded CLT recently was on Aug 31 vacancy is a Jan 17 hire...its probably the most senior narrowbody FO base in the system...that being said, movement over the next year should be crazy

QuagmireGiggity
08-17-2018, 07:04 PM
Most jr FO on bus in CLT is MAR 17 hire, most jr person to be awarded CLT recently was on Aug 31 vacancy is a Jan 17 hire...its probably the most senior narrowbody FO base in the system...that being said, movement over the next year should be crazy
I would also ad it's nearly impossible to predict movement here. Seems things don't move in a status forever then there's a big swift movement forward at random.

Thedude
08-22-2018, 07:07 AM
that being said, movement over the next year should be crazy

Don't count on it.
Lots of L-AA guys are still coming to CLT.

Al Czervik
08-22-2018, 12:13 PM
Don't count on it.
Lots of L-AA guys are still coming to CLT.

CAís or FOís?

AFTrainerGuy
08-22-2018, 01:52 PM
CAís or FOís?

Both I bet

Although there really havenít been any openings in the last 2 bids for FOís

I personally know 5-6 FOís who moved to CLT in last year and are commuting and waiting to get in. Betcha there are a lot more out there too, especially since a lot of the flows were based and live there too

If I was a newhire, Iíd be realistic. Itís gonna be a long while most likely (unless 737 comes in and I have no clue what that will do)

Fly21
08-22-2018, 03:57 PM
Doesn't really matter anyway. When AA figures out what they want to do in CLT a new hire could hold it under five years anyway. About 90% of our senior pilots are gonna kick the bucket in the next several years so don't worry.

Covfefe
08-22-2018, 04:19 PM
Don't count on it.
Lots of L-AA guys are still coming to CLT.

Yep. Iíve been in CLT 2.5yrs and havenít moved on the list. Maybe down a place or two if anything...

Thedude
08-23-2018, 08:33 AM
CAís or FOís?

Both.

I understand the guys that live here or are from here. Now we have guys just moving here and that equates to no movement or going backwards.

nimslow
08-23-2018, 08:35 AM
Most jr FO on bus in CLT is MAR 17 hire, most jr person to be awarded CLT recently was on Aug 31 vacancy is a Jan 17 hire...its probably the most senior narrowbody FO base in the system...that being said, movement over the next year should be crazy

CLT is senior, but not the most senior. I'd be over 10% more senior in CLT as a bus fo, than I would be in DFW on either the bus or 73.

ALF659
08-23-2018, 05:19 PM
CLT is senior, but not the most senior. I'd be over 10% more senior in CLT as a bus fo, than I would be in DFW on either the bus or 73.

Seniority is all relative. If you are a new hire and want 320 to CLT it is the most senior. If you have been here a while, PHX is pretty senior for 320 FO. It just depends on how you look at it.

Dobbs18
08-23-2018, 05:34 PM
CLT is senior, but not the most senior. I'd be over 10% more senior in CLT as a bus fo, than I would be in DFW on either the bus or 73.

That maybe true for you, but for me as a late 2014 hire, DFW/FO/737/D gives me my worst seniority in Dallas at around 70% which is still 10% better than my roughly 80 percentile in CLT. As of December vacancy.

nimslow
08-23-2018, 06:51 PM
Seniority is all relative. If you are a new hire and want 320 to CLT it is the most senior. If you have been here a while, PHX is pretty senior for 320 FO. It just depends on how you look at it.

True, however the statement was CLT was "probably the most senior narrow body base". So thats not really true. I'd be 20%ish in CLT, 30%ish in DFW on either airplane, and 65% in PHX, as an FO.

In my current 737/CA status, I can only hold LGA or MIA, and I'd be almost 15% more senior in LGA. So as much as it pains me, my bid for LGA is back in. MIA is the best narrow body flying in the system, IMHO.

Dobbs18
08-24-2018, 04:17 AM
True, however the statement was CLT was "probably the most senior narrow body base". So thats not really true.

He also said for a new hire, not someone who is senior enough to be a CA...if you are a new hire CLT has and is currently taking one of the longest times to get into...and yes we all know that past results are no indication of future performance, so it could change, but thatís the way it is right now.

Pilot X
08-24-2018, 02:49 PM
True, however the statement was CLT was "probably the most senior narrow body base". So thats not really true. I'd be 20%ish in CLT, 30%ish in DFW on either airplane, and 65% in PHX, as an FO.

In my current 737/CA status, I can only hold LGA or MIA, and I'd be almost 15% more senior in LGA. So as much as it pains me, my bid for LGA is back in. MIA is the best narrow body flying in the system, IMHO.

You should stay in MIA :D

meyers9163
08-25-2018, 05:06 AM
He also said for a new hire, not someone who is senior enough to be a CA...if you are a new hire CLT has and is currently taking one of the longest times to get into...and yes we all know that past results are no indication of future performance, so it could change, but thatís the way it is right now.

Reading comprehension is hard for some to grasp. Unsure what the debate even was. For new hires CLT absolutely is the most senior and nearly impossible to get into. Guess some just canít read.

nimslow
08-25-2018, 05:58 AM
Reading comprehension is hard for some to grasp. Unsure what the debate even was. For new hires CLT absolutely is the most senior and nearly impossible to get into. Guess some just canít read.

Most of us can read just fine, the original statement was,

Most jr FO on bus in CLT is MAR 17 hire, most jr person to be awarded CLT recently was on Aug 31 vacancy is a Jan 17 hire...its probably the most senior narrowbody FO base in the system...that being said, movement over the next year should be crazy

Saabs
08-25-2018, 08:49 AM
Reading comprehension is hard for some to grasp. Unsure what the debate even was. For new hires CLT absolutely is the most senior and nearly impossible to get into. Guess some just canít read.

Way to be a Richard.

mainlineAF
08-25-2018, 08:55 AM
Way to be a Richard.



Lol and he was wrong. Thatís an angry dude.

ORDinary
08-25-2018, 09:21 AM
For new hires CLT absolutely is the most senior and nearly impossible to get into.

ORD is as bad or worse I think.

Dobbs18
08-25-2018, 11:32 AM
ORD is as bad or worse I think.

Yes, ORD is basically the same as CLT. The most jr FO is separated by 1 class. MAR 17 for CLT and APR 17 for ORD. So anyone hired after those classes could conceivably have bid, depending on equipment, and held any other base other than CLT or ORD. That being said it looks as though ORD has been harder to bid into for a recent hire(last 4yrs or so)over the last 3 vacancies, according to 3XP.

Dobbs18
08-25-2018, 12:50 PM
Yes, ORD is basically the same as CLT. The most jr FO is separated by 1 class. MAR 17 for CLT and APR 17 for ORD. So anyone hired after those classes could conceivably have bid, depending on equipment, and held any other base other than CLT or ORD. That being said it looks as though ORD has been harder to bid into for a recent hire(last 4yrs or so)over the last 3 vacancies, according to 3XP.

Nevermind, what i said above, it is wrong and poorly worded...the dates are correct but i have no idea what guys after those hire dates can and can't hold...i just know that ORD and CLT have most senior bottom of list guys for a Group II airplane.

Name User
08-25-2018, 04:36 PM
Well on the east side, some guys got CLT in training, some got it within a few months and some had to wait a few years.

Shrinking/stagnant bases will always be tough to get into as most who are there don't want to leave, so no new spots. AKA BOS, PHX, ORD. Etc.

Would be nice if we were UA and adding flying but Doug has never done that on the mainline side, the recent European stuff notwithstanding, and the few point to point stuff we had has been killed by high(er) fuel prices. The stuff we are adding guys thumb their nose at (ie CAE, GSP, etc etc).

mainlineAF
08-26-2018, 05:45 AM
Any idea when the next bid will be?

Saabs
08-26-2018, 06:28 AM
Any idea when the next bid will be?

Gonna bid off the RJ?

redbaronahp
08-26-2018, 06:34 AM
Would be nice if we were UA and adding flying but Doug has never done that on the mainline side, the recent European stuff notwithstanding, and the few point to point stuff we had has been killed by high(er) fuel prices. The stuff we are adding guys thumb their nose at (ie CAE, GSP, etc etc).

Give the flying to regionals and give international to code share partners who are willing to do it cheaper seems to be Dougís philosophy. We need language in the next contract to get the flying back or at the least to keep it.

mainlineAF
08-26-2018, 06:38 AM
Gonna bid off the RJ?



Nope RJ for life.

Buzzlightyear
08-26-2018, 12:08 PM
Any idea when the next bid will be?

I would expect to see the next bid September 21st. Last one was posted June 22nd IIRC and closed around the week of July 4th.

Covfefe
08-26-2018, 05:55 PM
I would expect to see the next bid September 21st. Last one was posted June 22nd IIRC and closed around the week of July 4th.

Iím hoping that the next few bid awards will be like the last one! Havenít heard any intel, but curious to know if anyone has...

TRZ06
08-26-2018, 11:39 PM
Doesn't really matter anyway. When AA figures out what they want to do in CLT a new hire could hold it under five years anyway. About 90% of our senior pilots are gonna kick the bucket in the next several years so don't worry.

I hope you mean ďkicking the bucketĒ as in retiring from AA and not life in general ;}
As one of those 90% Iím more than happy to leave free and clear. Hopefully I can get my last five years worth of income out of the company. I have serious concerns whether it will be around in its present form much longer than that though. Not good to worry anyway but if the ship goes down it doesnít matter how senior you are. Just some friendly advice to all that pass through these doors.



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