Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : [1] 2

View Full Version : JetBlue buying Frontier?


hyperboy
07-24-2018, 02:04 PM
https://blog.wandr.me/2017/08/musing-consolidation-jetblue-frontier/



I know the article is old. It has been quiet. I think this could happen very soon. I'm just sayin'

I am not trying to act like I know what I am talking about.

Thoughts?


Bluedriver
07-24-2018, 02:10 PM
Well, make your case. Why do you think it's happening and what have you seen/heard to make you think it's happening?

I know we made several big-money a while back, but indigo wanted the moon.

It is WELL within the realm of possibility, but I haven't seen or heard anything lately.

Plus, Frontier doesn't even have any hubs in the D.R., so probably not interested.

pilotpayne
07-24-2018, 02:16 PM
Well, make your case. Why do you think it's happening and what have you seen/heard to make you think it's happening?

I know we made several big-money a while back, but indigo wanted the moon.

It is WELL within the realm of possibility, but I haven't seen or heard anything lately.

Plus, Frontier doesn't even have any hubs in the D.R., so probably not interested.


I would also like to know


hyperboy
07-24-2018, 02:35 PM
Well, make your case. Why do you think it's happening and what have you seen/heard to make you think it's happening?

I know we made several big-money a while back, but indigo wanted the moon.

It is WELL within the realm of possibility, but I haven't seen or heard anything lately.

Plus, Frontier doesn't even have any hubs in the D.R., so probably not interested.

Here are some thoughts....

*The pilot group is ready to burn that place down. They could be "saved"
*We really don't have much overlap and they do some midwest stuff if thats where we would like to dabble.
*They have aircraft on order and could allow is to go a different route....possibly wide?
*They have no regional flying that would be required not to have if we ratify on Friday with our scope.
*They have a west coast presence and may just enough for what JetBlue needs and or wants?
*They are private which they don't have to disclose much.
*Is there any coincidence with our TA and the pressure the pilots at Frontier are starting to put on management to get this done rather than draw it out?

Bluedriver
07-24-2018, 02:54 PM
Here are some thoughts....

*The pilot group is ready to burn that place down. They could be "saved"
*We really don't have much overlap and they do some midwest stuff if thats where we would like to dabble.
*They have aircraft on order and could allow is to go a different route....possibly wide?
*They have no regional flying that would be required not to have if we ratify on Friday with our scope.
*They have a west coast presence and may just enough for what JetBlue needs and or wants?
*They are private which they don't have to disclose much.
*Is there any coincidence with our TA and the pressure the pilots at Frontier are starting to put on management to get this done rather than draw it out?

All good points, and many of those points are why we made several big-money offers.

However, I don't think there is any coincidence about our TA and Frontier pilots actions, but Frontier pilots unrest might push indigo to settle with their pilots or sell.

Have you seen or heard any recent signs that JB is still pursuing Frontier?

Ted Striker
07-24-2018, 04:54 PM
https://blog.wandr.me/2017/08/musing-consolidation-jetblue-frontier/



I know the article is old. It has been quiet. I think this could happen very soon. I'm just sayin'

I am not trying to act like I know what I am talking about.

Thoughts?

I think prior to the C Series becoming Airbus this had more appeal. Since Airbus deliveries are backed up, and with Frontier holding ample slots. Now Jetblue can shift 320 deliveries to 321 NEO's and LRs. All while taking 60 300's and then mixing in 100's plus more 300's with the extra 60 C Series options. This would replace not only the 190 flying but replace some 320 flying at the same time.

I think it would be bold to stroll into DEN when Southwest and United basically hold a monopoly. We would need to either go head to head with them both or sell the gates. You would gain a few slots here and there that are valuable ... etc DCA, LAX, SFO. Is that worth it ?? Maybe?

We would also be taking on a lot of destinations that work well for ULCC's (2-3 day service only , skirt airports) that I don't think would work well for Jetblue.

But then again what do I know? ..... absolutely nothing.

RiddleEagle18
07-24-2018, 04:57 PM
Look further west...

Alaska/JB will be the eventual tie up. Codeshare first Iím guessing then full tie up when the economy takes its hit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

pilotpayne
07-24-2018, 05:09 PM
Look further west...

Alaska/JB will be the eventual tie up. Codeshare first Iím guessing then full tie up when the economy takes its hit.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Which I do wonder about. ALK basically sucked up VA and turned it into ALK. I wonder what a ALK/jetblue merger would look like. Would we become ALK drones or would ALK become jetblue. I just donít see how the smaller airlines donít merge one day.

It would be a pretty good airline.

CaptCoolHand
07-24-2018, 05:10 PM
Does frontier actually own the delivery slots or does indigo?

Bluedriver
07-24-2018, 05:29 PM
Does frontier actually own the delivery slots or does indigo?

Indigo. But if it was important to us, it would be negotiated into the sale.

Flyby1206
07-24-2018, 07:02 PM
Indigo. But if it was important to us, it would be negotiated into the sale.

Rumor is F9 got an absolutely awesome deal on their NEOs since they were the US launch customer...

FlyinRabbit88
07-24-2018, 11:05 PM
Jetblue buying/merge with Spirit would make more sense than buying Frontier at this point. Entrench in FLL vs Southwest, bases in LAS/DFW/ORD that could help with west coast and central US presence. Same engine type on Airbus. Etc etc
But would it happen, of course not, we want to grow potatoes 🥔 ďOrganicallyĒ.

BunkerF16
07-25-2018, 07:20 AM
Jetblue buying/merge with Spirit would make more sense than buying Frontier at this point. Entrench in FLL vs Southwest, bases in LAS/DFW/ORD that could help with west coast and central US presence. Same engine type on Airbus. Etc etc
But would it happen, of course not, we want to grow potatoes 🥔 ďOrganicallyĒ.


Two different models. Two different customer service platforms. Would we become an ULCC, or the taint airline JB is now? Cause we taint a ULCC and we taint a legacy-like carrier either.


Come on United. Get your sh1t together and end this social disaster experiment once and for all.

Kilroy
07-25-2018, 01:25 PM
Actually frontier is buying JetBlue. Announcement soon. Itís true. I heard it from my friends Mom who knows the janitor at frontier who heard the secretary talking about it on the phone.

seekingblue
07-25-2018, 02:03 PM
Two different models. Two different customer service platforms. Would we become an ULCC, or the taint airline JB is now? Cause we taint a ULCC and we taint a legacy-like carrier either.


Come on United. Get your sh1t together and end this social disaster experiment once and for all.

Let's pitch this to United's BOD. It's the best outcome for us and will give them significant gains.

Name User
07-25-2018, 07:15 PM
Jetblue buying/merge with Spirit would make more sense than buying Frontier at this point. Entrench in FLL vs Southwest, bases in LAS/DFW/ORD that could help with west coast and central US presence. Same engine type on Airbus. Etc etc
But would it happen, of course not, we want to grow potatoes 🥔 ďOrganicallyĒ.

I agree jetBlue needs to lock up FLL. Mega hubs are where the money is at. Would also give them more of MCO and a good west coast hub at LAS. That being said if JBLU gets much cheaper Spirit will be the one buying!

Name User
07-25-2018, 07:16 PM
Let's pitch this to United's BOD. It's the best outcome for us and will give them significant gains.

Why would United want jetBlue? Then they've have two large operations in NYC that just don't mesh well. I just don't see it. Way too messy.

RiddleEagle18
07-26-2018, 04:43 AM
Why would United want jetBlue? Then they've have two large operations in NYC that just don't mesh well. I just don't see it. Way too messy.



They would have 1 in jfk after they divest ewr.

They would gain a BOS hub and a FLL hub. Unitedís east coast isnít exactly great and JB would fill that hole.

With all that said there is no way in hell the DOJ allows it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluedriver
07-26-2018, 06:46 AM
They would have 1 in jfk after they divest ewr.

They would gain a BOS hub and a FLL hub. Unitedís east coast isnít exactly great and JB would fill that hole.

With all that said there is no way in hell the DOJ allows it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think THIS DOJ would allow it, but may require some EWR gate divestiture.

I also think they would maintain both EWR and JFK, similar to, but not exactly like Delta maintains LGA and JFK.

Everything else you said is spot on. Plus 4000 young pilots and a good fleet.

embraerjetpilot
07-26-2018, 07:05 AM
This DOJ would allow anything for a buck..


Back to the Frontier idea, this would have made more sense six or seven years ago when Frontier and JetBlue had identical business models. Now it would require either returning Frontier to JetBlue's business model or JetBlue down to Frontiers..


I think THIS DOJ would allow it, but may require some EWR gate divestiture.

I also think they would maintain both EWR and JFK, similar to, but not exactly like Delta maintains LGA and JFK.

Everything else you said is spot on. Plus 4000 young pilots and a good fleet.

Bluedriver
07-26-2018, 07:11 AM
This DOJ would allow anything for a buck..


Back to the Frontier idea, this would have made more sense six or seven years ago when Frontier and JetBlue had identical business models. Now it would require either returning Frontier to JetBlue's business model or JetBlue down to Frontiers..

I don't think they give Frontier's current business model more than 1.5 seconds of thought.

Blue shirts, TV's and a network tweak and problem solved.

Name User
07-26-2018, 07:11 AM
They would have 1 in jfk after they divest ewr.

They would gain a BOS hub and a FLL hub. Unitedís east coast isnít exactly great and JB would fill that hole.

With all that said there is no way in hell the DOJ allows it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would UAL abandon EWR? They are by far the dominant carrier there. Dominant hubs make more money. See ATL and DFW/CLT.

While JetBlue's hub is large in FLL by their standards it is not really a large hub. Look at MIA as an example.

Boston maybe, but why spend $10b (estimated) on acquiring a carrier just for one airport? JFK would need to be divested and that would hand it to Delta or AA.

Bluedriver
07-26-2018, 07:12 AM
Oh, and moldy pizza and IROP underwear.

Bluedriver
07-26-2018, 07:14 AM
Why would UAL abandon EWR? They are by far the dominant carrier there. Dominant hubs make more money. See ATL and DFW/CLT.

While JetBlue's hub is large in FLL by their standards it is not really a large hub. Look at MIA as an example.

Boston maybe, but why spend $10b (estimated) on acquiring a carrier just for one airport? JFK would need to be divested and that would hand it to Delta or AA.

They would most likely not have to divest JFK. They allowed Delta to have a very large LaGuardia and JFK operation simultaneously. Maintaining a Newark and JFK operation would not be much of a problem for the DOJ, and JFK and LaGuardia are the only slot controlled airports in the area.

Name User
07-26-2018, 07:19 AM
They would most likely not have to divest JFK. They allowed Delta to have a very large LaGuardia and JFK operation simultaneously. Maintaining a Newark and JFK operation would not be much of a problem for the DOJ, and JFK and LaGuardia are the only slot controlled airports in the area.

AA also has hubs in JFK and to a lesser extent LGA. Plus jetBlue also has a hub in JFK. EWR is owned by UA almost completely. You can bet they would not allow it.

Delta would be a better candidate for purchasing jetBlue based on their structure. They already have the JFK and (growing) BOS hubs.

That being said do you see the largest carriers becoming larger through acquisitions? I just don't see it being pushed through. Especially with fuel prices rising rapidly.

pilotpayne
07-26-2018, 07:35 AM
This DOJ would allow anything for a buck..


Back to the Frontier idea, this would have made more sense six or seven years ago when Frontier and JetBlue had identical business models. Now it would require either returning Frontier to JetBlue's business model or JetBlue down to Frontiers..

Yup if Wall St wants it, it can happen.
Not saying it will but guys saying things canít happen are insane. Sell some stuff to SWA and whatever the other guys want get rid of some competition and there you go.

Who knows these days but anyone sitting around saying no has not watched the industry.

Bluedriver
07-26-2018, 07:35 AM
AA also has hubs in JFK and to a lesser extent LGA. Plus jetBlue also has a hub in JFK. EWR is owned by UA almost completely. You can bet they would not allow it.

Delta would be a better candidate for purchasing jetBlue based on their structure. They already have the JFK and (growing) BOS hubs.

That being said do you see the largest carriers becoming larger through acquisitions? I just don't see it being pushed through. Especially with fuel prices rising rapidly.

EWR is no longer slot controlled. I don't think they will look at EWR the same as LGA and JFK any longer. May require giving up some EWR gates, but that's it.

They would not likely allow Delta to buy JB without more JFK divestitures. They have large hubs at both SLOT CONTROLLED NYC airports.

The entire point of blocking a corporate merger of any kind is consumer protection. That is not the priority of this administration or the GOP in general. They priority business interest over the consumer and don't like government interference when not absolutely required.

So yes, I think UAL and JB would be approved with some token divestitures to make it look like they care about protecting consumers.

pilotpayne
07-26-2018, 07:35 AM
I don't think they give Frontier's current business model more than 1.5 seconds of thought.

Blue shirts, TV's and a network tweak and problem solved.

Pretty much.

Powderkeg
07-26-2018, 07:43 AM
F9 guy here,

As much as weíd love somebody to rescue us from Indigo I donít see it happening. If JB couldnít get F9 bought a few years ago they surely canít now with Indigoís inflated self-valuation. Add to that JB is losing money with the strongest industry tailwinds weíve seen in a while, not likely to have the capital Indigo would want to see on the table.

No Iím afraid the world is stuck with Indigo and their visions as long as there are people buying $39 tickets. In fact I see Indigo purchasing a different airline (NK, JB, ??) in a whipsaw attempt before allowing their cash cow to make money for anybody but themselves.

BeatNavy
07-26-2018, 08:03 AM
F9 guy here,

As much as weíd love somebody to rescue us from Indigo I donít see it happening. If JB couldnít get F9 bought a few years ago they surely canít now with Indigoís inflated self-valuation. Add to that JB is losing money with the strongest industry tailwinds weíve seen in a while, not likely to have the capital Indigo would want to see on the table.

No Iím afraid the world is stuck with Indigo and their visions as long as there are people buying $39 tickets. In fact I see Indigo purchasing a different airline (NK, JB, ??) in a whipsaw attempt before allowing their cash cow to make money for anybody but themselves.

JetBlue is hardly losing money.

Chief Brody
07-26-2018, 08:19 AM
JetBlue is hardly losing money.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-york/articles/2018-07-24/jetblue-2q-earnings-snapshot

jtrain609
07-26-2018, 08:23 AM
JetBlue is hardly losing money.

JetBlue lost money in Q2. I know it's because of the impairment, but you can't make that write down go away. It's like saying, "yeah but if we'd had more money coming in, we would have turned a profit!!!"

The impairment was inevitable, and was going to hurt the bottom line no matter how you slice it.

BeatNavy
07-26-2018, 08:23 AM
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-york/articles/2018-07-24/jetblue-2q-earnings-snapshot

Thatís with a $319 million impairment charge on the loss we are taking with getting rid of the 190s early. Without that, we would have been profitable. And thatís not an amount we owe/paid anyone, itís just an accounting number. So yeah, JB still made money despite reporting a loss.

Chief Brody
07-26-2018, 08:29 AM
JetBlue lost money in Q2. I know it's because of the impairment, but you can't make that write down go away. It's like saying, "yeah but if we'd had more money coming in, we would have turned a profit!!!"

The impairment was inevitable, and was going to hurt the bottom line no matter how you slice it.

Exactly.....

BeatNavy
07-26-2018, 08:30 AM
JetBlue lost money in Q2. I know it's because of the impairment, but you can't make that write down go away. It's like saying, "yeah but if we'd had more money coming in, we would have turned a profit!!!"

The impairment was inevitable, and was going to hurt the bottom line no matter how you slice it.

They didnít lose money. They reported a loss for the quarter. But they reported it only because the impairment is an accounting loss on future value, not an actual loss of actual money for the quarter. Big difference.

BeatNavy
07-26-2018, 08:35 AM
Exactly.....

Alright let’s relate this to personal taxes. If you have a capital loss carryover for 2016, you can make money in 2017 with capital gains but offset it with the carryover such that you effectively made no money (or still lost money and keep carrying it forward if the loss was bigger than the 2017 gains). You didn’t lose money in 2017, but for tax purposes you didn’t make any (or still “lost money” if the loss carried was greater than the amount you made and carry it over to 2018).

This is the same principle. It’s not an actual loss. It’s a paper loss (really estimated loss on future value)/accounting that is applied in this quarter for something that won’t even begin to happen for until at least 2020 and won’t be fully complete until 2025. Not an actual loss of actual dollars in Q2. JB is making plenty of those still.

Powderkeg
07-26-2018, 09:08 AM
You can spin the loss however you like but if a one time write down was the only issue it wouldn’t require layoffs, restructuring of routing, slowed growth or even a second thought about increasing costs of fuel.

My point remains that JB cannot afford F9.

Blue Dude
07-26-2018, 09:28 AM
In fact I see Indigo purchasing a different airline (NK, JB, ??) in a whipsaw attempt before allowing their cash cow to make money for anybody but themselves.

If our TA passes tomorrow, then you won't have to worry about Indigo buying JB to whipsaw you. The scope section specifically forbids it. NK though...

seekingblue
07-26-2018, 09:30 AM
You can spin the loss however you like but if a one time write down was the only issue it wouldnít require layoffs, restructuring of routing, slowed growth or even a second thought about increasing costs of fuel.

My point remains that JB cannot afford F9.

Easy dude. Calm down. No need to throw stones in our direction.

I donít know if we can afford Frontier or not. I donít know if United can afford us, either. If we wanted to buy frontier (or United wanted to buy us), and we could get a Wall Street bank to finance the deal, it would be done.

Quite frankly, Frontier is a dumpster fire right now. Iíve got too many friends over there who wish they were back at their regional airlines (better pay). I think our best play, frankly, is to buy some of your Airbus orders. No integration, no frontier management etc.

svergin
07-26-2018, 09:52 AM
Thatís with a $319 million impairment charge on the loss we are taking with getting rid of the 190s early. Without that, we would have been profitable. And thatís not an amount we owe/paid anyone, itís just an accounting number. So yeah, JB still made money despite reporting a loss.

Absolutely not true.

Its because JB paid cash in some way, and transferred that cash on the balance sheet into some other asset class, and now that they arenít getting the benefit from that, they wrote it off. Its like saying you bought a ticket to see Hamilton, and later on you decided not to go so you tore up the ticket saying to yourself ďWell this ticket isnít really cash, its just a piece of paper. Its a book lossĒ.

The other way to look at this is in the previous quarter where JB spent the cash, it didnít write off the amount in that quarter, even though thatís when the money left JB. So they have to account for it now. But yes, its a REAL loss of capital.

svergin
07-26-2018, 10:04 AM
They didnít lose money. They reported a loss for the quarter. But they reported it only because the impairment is an accounting loss on future value, not an actual loss of actual money for the quarter. Big difference.

They gave the money in a previous reporting period, so yes the cash is gone. Its $300M+ that JB once had that they donít have any more. But yes, they donít ďowe anyoneĒ that cash right now.

If you buy $1B planes for cash you reduce cash by $1B and then you increase Aircraft by $1B. Then you depreciate aircraft, so that you match roughly (under GAAP rules). If you end up selling the planes for less than you owe on them, you actually take a LOSS, even though you didnít lose cash. You lost the cash up front. Its gone already.

RiddleEagle18
07-26-2018, 10:13 AM
Yes but JB isnít losing money in day to day operations. There is a huge difference and distinction there.

The original post that spurred all this made it sound like JB was losing money on the operation. It isnít.

BeatNavy
07-26-2018, 10:31 AM
They gave the money in a previous reporting period, so yes the cash is gone. Its $300M+ that JB once had that they donít have any more. But yes, they donít ďowe anyoneĒ that cash right now.

If you buy $1B planes for cash you reduce cash by $1B and then you increase Aircraft by $1B. Then you depreciate aircraft, so that you match roughly (under GAAP rules). If you end up selling the planes for less than you owe on them, you actually take a LOSS, even though you didnít lose cash. You lost the cash up front. Its gone already.

Thatís precisely why I used a personal tax 2016 capital loss as an example. The loss occurred in 2016, but was a carryover for 2017 tax purposes. One may have made capital gains in 2017, but a 2016 carried loss can be used in 2017 to offset the gain. Itís not the same as an impairment, but itís the same principle. We didnít lose money in Q2. We reported a loss, but itís not a loss from Q2.

In this case, itís a long term high value asset with a previously used depreciation schedule, and (in our case) all of a sudden the length of ownership changes, the future cash flow and value of the asset, along with its depreciation schedule, also changes, leading to an impairment being required. That doesnít mean we lost money on the asset over its lifetime, or this quarter, just that the future value of the owned 190s and its depreciation changed with our reduced ownership timeframe such that an impairment was required to be reported. We didnít lose $319m. Itís just a difference from previously used numbers based on a previously used ownership length/depreciation schedule/future value numbers. Itís an accounting number. Not a loss in this quarter.

pilotpayne
07-26-2018, 10:34 AM
Thatís precisely why I used a personal tax 2016 capital loss as an example. The loss occurred in 2016, but was a carryover for 2017 tax purposes. One may have made capital gains in 2017, but a 2016 carried loss can be used in 2017 to offset the gain. Itís not the same as an impairment, but itís the same principle. We didnít lose money in Q2. We reported a loss, but itís not a loss from Q2.

In this case, itís a long term high value asset with a previously used depreciation schedule, and (in our case) all of a sudden the length of ownership changes, the future cash flow and value of the asset, along with its depreciation schedule, also changes, leading to an impairment being required. That doesnít mean we lost money on the asset over its lifetime, or this quarter, just that the future value of the owned 190s and its depreciation changed with our reduced ownership timeframe such that an impairment was required to be reported. We didnít lose $319m. Itís just a difference from previously used numbers based on a previously used ownership length/depreciation schedule/future value numbers. Itís an accounting number. Not a loss in this quarter.


Wait but our airline is about to die......
Funny thing the one thing we are good at is moving money around. We just announced the return of 60 of our planes that was going to hit us somewhere.

Name User
07-26-2018, 12:16 PM
From an investment standpoint jetBlue is a healthy company with a loyal customer base and has some great hub locations. Honestly anyone there now I would not worry one bit. They have been busy paying down debt like their money is on fire. I'm at AA and quite frankly I feel your company will continue to make inroads on our business and markets. If we added free WiFi and had more of a brand rather than this generic "airline" brand we're going for you might be in trouble but right now the biggest issue you guys have is operational ones where the company just can't seem to figure out how to run during IROPS.

therapysession
07-26-2018, 12:20 PM
F9 guy here, I don't know what the culture is like there other than what I've read on here but if there were to be a merger between the 2 of us it would be now. F9 is a dumpster fire, morale is at an all time low, vacations canceled, probationary pilots fired, more canceled flights than I've seen in my entire time working here. With that being said and the recent ALPA lawsuit, along with negotiations with pilots and FAs...I can see the headache being too big and settling for maybe less than they wanted. The other side to that is that Frankes ego is so big, I fear he may in fact let this place burn down before he gives in. What do I know though....

Kilroy
07-26-2018, 03:51 PM
F9 guy here, I don't know what the culture is like there other than what I've read on here but if there were to be a merger between the 2 of us it would be now. F9 is a dumpster fire, morale is at an all time low, vacations canceled, probationary pilots fired, more canceled flights than I've seen in my entire time working here. With that being said and the recent ALPA lawsuit, along with negotiations with pilots and FAs...I can see the headache being too big and settling for maybe less than they wanted. The other side to that is that Frankes ego is so big, I fear he may in fact let this place burn down before he gives in. What do I know though....

If frontier is not saved by JetBlue or other airline, then yes frontier will be history. The alpa lawsuit was a bad move. Now it will take years to resolve the contract because a judge will now be in charge.

hilltopflyer
07-26-2018, 04:45 PM
If frontier is not saved by JetBlue or other airline, then yes frontier will be history. The alpa lawsuit was a bad move. Now it will take years to resolve the contract because a judge will now be in charge.

What was the ALPA lawsuit

MGMTiswatchingU
07-26-2018, 05:26 PM
What was the ALPA lawsuit

F9 mgmt negotiating in bad faith.

benzoate
07-26-2018, 05:42 PM
Forgive me but what would be the benefit of Jetblue buying Frontier? I can see the benefit or AK or HAL from a growth, strength or network but I'm confused about the F9 assertion.

RiddleEagle18
07-26-2018, 08:00 PM
Forgive me but what would be the benefit of Jetblue buying Frontier? I can see the benefit or AK or HAL from a growth, strength or network but I'm confused about the F9 assertion.



I agree. I donít get it. Thatís not a knock on frontier itís just I donít see the ďsynergiesĒ of that particular merger.

The frontier route network has evolved into something drastically different than JBís. If the merger were to happen JB wouldnít be able to continue a lot of those routes under the JB brand. JB would essentially be dismantling frontier just to gain access to the planes and redeploy them on more traditional JB routes. Wall Street already doesnít like our growth. That would basically just be adding growth.

A merger with Alaska would make way more sense and personally I think itís coming if United doesnít make a play on JB first. My guess is an Alaska codeshare is signed within a year and a merger happens the next time the economy take a dump.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pilotpayne
07-26-2018, 08:28 PM
I agree. I donít get it. Thatís not a knock on frontier itís just I donít see the ďsynergiesĒ of that particular merger.

The frontier route network has evolved into something drastically different than JBís. If the merger were to happen JB wouldnít be able to continue a lot of those routes under the JB brand. JB would essentially be dismantling frontier just to gain access to the planes and redeploy them on more traditional JB routes. Wall Street already doesnít like our growth. That would basically just be adding growth.

A merger with Alaska would make way more sense and personally I think itís coming if United doesnít make a play on JB first. My guess is an Alaska codeshare is signed within a year and a merger happens the next time the economy take a dump.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But do we stay jetblue or become Alaskaís next Virgin sacrifice?

RiddleEagle18
07-27-2018, 05:16 AM
But do we stay jetblue or become Alaskaís next Virgin sacrifice?



I know some people get hung up on a name. Itís emotional and it makes people think their airline won. It makes them think they will do or somehow should do better on the SLI.

Honestly though how could you not choose the JB name to continue. Broad nation wide appeal. Whoís first thought to fly from FLL-JFK is to search the Alaska airlines website. Letís hope we keep some of the Alaska operations people though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ReserveCA
07-27-2018, 05:33 AM
F9 mgmt negotiating in bad faith.

Lawsuit 8 months overdue....

JB canít afford what INDIGO THINKS F9 is worth

GuppyPuppy
07-27-2018, 05:55 AM
But do we stay jetblue or become Alaskaís next Virgin sacrifice?

Jet America (AS still owns the name).

Gup

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 06:07 AM
If frontier is not saved by JetBlue or other airline, then yes frontier will be history. The alpa lawsuit was a bad move. Now it will take years to resolve the contract because a judge will now be in charge.

Yeah, because it wasn't clear it was going to take years anyway?

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 06:09 AM
Forgive me but what would be the benefit of Jetblue buying Frontier? I can see the benefit or AK or HAL from a growth, strength or network but I'm confused about the F9 assertion.

I could see many benefits, but my opinion and yours don't matter. What I do know is JB made more than one $Billion+ offer about a year ago.

Chief Brody
07-27-2018, 06:17 AM
Yeah, because it wasn't clear it was going to take years anyway?

A federal judge will most likely push the company to mediate and settle the dispute. This may push things along much faster for us. Indigo has a lot to lose and may not want the exposure of an unknown outcome from a civil trial. I think ALPA got this one right.

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 06:20 AM
I agree. I donít get it. Thatís not a knock on frontier itís just I donít see the ďsynergiesĒ of that particular merger.

The frontier route network has evolved into something drastically different than JBís. If the merger were to happen JB wouldnít be able to continue a lot of those routes under the JB brand. JB would essentially be dismantling frontier just to gain access to the planes and redeploy them on more traditional JB routes. Wall Street already doesnít like our growth. That would basically just be adding growth.

A merger with Alaska would make way more sense and personally I think itís coming if United doesnít make a play on JB first. My guess is an Alaska codeshare is signed within a year and a merger happens the next time the economy take a dump.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't completely agree about Frontier, but don't care enough to even talk about it.

Completely agree on Alaska. I think we were absolutely in talks with UAL, but I also believe that those talks broke down and then UAL announced it's big domestic organic expansion plans. Of course they could still merge us and scale back those plans.

Otherwise, or maybe even more likely is a codeshare followed by Alaska merger.

JetBlue name and product should definitely be the surviving corporate face, but any manager in charge of potato farming or catering or CULTure emails or "virtual spares" needs to get fired.

With that said, while Alaska has good operations managers, their overall management as it pertains to pilot negotiations (comp, benefits and scope) is ruthlessly cheap. That's not good either. Not that ours is much better (management). Good news is our new CBA would be the floor of a JCBA.

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 06:22 AM
A federal judge will most likely push the company to mediate and settle the dispute. This may push things along much faster for us. Indigo has a lot to lose and may not want the exposure of an unknown outcome from a civil trial. I think ALPA got this one right.

I'm not disagreeing, I was responding to the dude who thought it was a mistake.

Bozo the pilot
07-27-2018, 06:59 AM
Don't completely agree about Frontier, but don't care enough to even talk about it.

Completely agree on Alaska. I think we were absolutely in talks with UAL, but I also believe that those talks broke down and then UAL announced it's big domestic organic expansion plans. Of course they could still merge us and scale back those plans.

Otherwise, or maybe even more likely is a codeshare followed by Alaska merger.

JetBlue name and product should definitely be the surviving corporate face, but any manager in charge of potato farming or catering or CULTure emails or "virtual spares" needs to get fired.

With that said, while Alaska has good operations managers, their overall management as it pertains to pilot negotiations (comp, benefits and scope) is ruthlessly cheap. That's not good either. Not that ours is much better (management). Good news is our new CBA would be the floor of a JCBA.
Potato farming always has me howling- What a joke of a management team. How do they take themselves seriously?
SOP forever.

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 07:08 AM
Potato farming always has me howling- What a joke of a management team. How do they take themselves seriously?
SOP forever.

There are things at JB that you really couldn't make up...

Judge Smails
07-27-2018, 10:10 AM
If our TA passes tomorrow, then you won't have to worry about Indigo buying JB to whipsaw you. The scope section specifically forbids it. NK though...

Won't happen. NK contract forbids it also.

therapysession
07-27-2018, 05:52 PM
If frontier is not saved by JetBlue or other airline, then yes frontier will be history. The alpa lawsuit was a bad move. Now it will take years to resolve the contract because a judge will now be in charge.

I don't know what you mean by saved considering F9 is the second most profitable airline, and a known business model that will never go away. So no, I don't think F9 will be history. I'm sure the CEO of KLM said the same thing about Ryanair...(a joke)

https://www.businessinsider.com/klm-royal-dutch-airlines-ceo-talks-ryanair-low-cost-carriers-pieter-elbers-flight-plane-2017-11

As somebody with a law degree I can tell you 100% the lawsuit was the right move. It circumvents the NMB to force the company to come to the table. Also, being filed in Chicago (a pro labor city) was genius. The lawsuit will be a precedence case for any future airline that negotiates via the RLA process (which in my opinion is pro mgmt). It also forces the higher ups to come to court, where as our LTD section was closed by the secretary. Any person can come to the NMB meetings, a lawsuit not so much. Furthermore, by filing the lawsuit the court can find F9 in contempt for not following the arbitration awarded to ALPA over bad faith bargaining, along with any further breach of contract as I'm sure you have read. (Probationary pilots fired, vacation canceled, etc...)

Kilroy
07-27-2018, 06:13 PM
I don't know what you mean by saved considering F9 is the second most profitable airline, and a known business model that will never go away. So no, I don't think F9 will be history. I'm sure the CEO of KLM said the same thing about Ryanair...(a joke)

https://www.businessinsider.com/klm-royal-dutch-airlines-ceo-talks-ryanair-low-cost-carriers-pieter-elbers-flight-plane-2017-11

As somebody with a law degree I can tell you 100% the lawsuit was the right move. It circumvents the NMB to force the company to come to the table. Also, being filed in Chicago (a pro labor city) was genius. The lawsuit will be a precedence case for any future airline that negotiates via the RLA process (which in my opinion is pro mgmt). It also forces the higher ups to come to court, where as our LTD section was closed by the secretary. Any person can come to the NMB meetings, a lawsuit not so much. Furthermore, by filing the lawsuit the court can find F9 in contempt for not following the arbitration awarded to ALPA over bad faith bargaining, along with any further breach of contract as I'm sure you have read. (Probationary pilots fired, vacation canceled, etc...)

And how many times will the company postpone meetings, with the judges approval, and what time frame do you think this will take. My guess they can stretch this out for a few years. You might have a law degree but how many trials have you conducted in a civil lawsuit that was fast? I hope this works but I highly doubt it. But would love to be wrong on this one.

therapysession
07-27-2018, 06:56 PM
And how many times will the company postpone meetings, with the judges approval, and what time frame do you think this will take. My guess they can stretch this out for a few years. You might have a law degree but how many trials have you conducted in a civil lawsuit that was fast? I hope this works but I highly doubt it. But would love to be wrong on this one.

Well not to sound condescending, but...I think the lawyers at the largest pilots union (ALPA) know what they are doing.

av8or
07-28-2018, 10:52 AM
Jet America (AS still owns the name).

Gup


ďJet ĎMercaĒ

redbaronahp
07-28-2018, 03:58 PM
Jet America (AS still owns the name).

Gup

I heard B6 management is looking at a merger with Alaska and Hawaiian and will buy the rights to Pan Am for the new airline.

Bluedriver
07-28-2018, 04:17 PM
I heard B6 management is looking at a merger with Alaska and Hawaiian and will buy the rights to Pan Am for the new airline.

Um, Blue Am?

BunkerF16
07-28-2018, 04:22 PM
I heard B6 management is looking at a merger with Alaska and Hawaiian and will buy the rights to Pan Am for the new airline.

That would actually be pretty cool...as long as they got a real management team to run it...

GuppyPuppy
07-28-2018, 05:29 PM
That would actually be pretty cool...as long as they got a real management team to run it...

None of the *****cats we've had so far could hold a candle to Juan Trippe.

GP

BunkerF16
07-28-2018, 05:33 PM
None of the *****cats we've had so far could hold a candle to Juan Trippe.

GP


True statement.

FNGFO
07-28-2018, 05:36 PM
Um, Blue Am?

Blue Am Airlways....or

Blue Amways

Kilroy
07-29-2018, 08:06 AM
Under the new contract do you get 75 hours of pay per month?

Southerner
07-29-2018, 08:08 AM
Under the new contract do you get 75 hours of pay per month?

70 for a line, 75 for short call reserve

RiddleEagle18
07-29-2018, 08:08 AM
Under the new contract do you get 75 hours of pay per month?



Rsv guarantee is 75
Line holder is 70(can pretty much count on always getting more than that)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MusicPilot
07-29-2018, 12:50 PM
I heard B6 management is looking at a merger with Alaska and Hawaiian and will buy the rights to Pan Am for the new airline.

Good luck. The globe is owned by one person and the name and all rights are owned by a railway company. A group tried to startup Pan Am again and no dice. The railway wouldnít give up the rights.

ItnStln
07-29-2018, 12:51 PM
Good luck. The globe is owned by one person and the name and all rights are owned by a railway company. A group tried to startup Pan Am again and no dice. The railway wouldnít give up the rights.



Iím sure for the right price they would. But itís coming up with their asking amount thatís the problem.

Bluedriver
07-29-2018, 05:00 PM
Iím sure for the right price they would. But itís coming up with their asking amount thatís the problem.

If it's priced higher than $2.50, no way JB would pay it. Unless it's for executive bonuses.

hyperboy
09-20-2018, 08:05 PM
If it's priced higher than $2.50, no way JB would pay it. Unless it's for executive bonuses.

It's been quiet long enough. It's gaining steam. Maybe October 2nd?!

Bluedriver
09-20-2018, 08:15 PM
It's been quiet long enough. It's gaining steam. Maybe October 2nd?!

Where are you getting this idea?

MySaabStory
09-20-2018, 08:24 PM
So AW merged with USAir. Then they merge with AA. Pretty sweet deal.

Jetblue merges with Frontier. Ouch....That would be a tough pill to swallow.

Bluedriver
09-20-2018, 08:51 PM
So AW merged with USAir. Then they merge with AA. Pretty sweet deal.

Jetblue merges with Frontier. Ouch....That would be a tough pill to swallow.

Ha, good one. It must be a full moon tonight, lots of people saying really stupid things.

IWalkJun12
09-22-2018, 06:14 AM
So let me get this right.

One guy says B6 merges with F9 and not NK, b/c NK has a different business model than B6? Dude, do you live under a rock? Facts are, F9 is NK 4 years ago. NK has worked hard to change its image especially in the customer service department. No more Ben emailing customers saying let them tell the world how bad we are.

One guy says Indgio is going to buy NK. Dude, wtf would they do that? They owned NK in 2010 and sold them. Here's a idea, let's sell airline A for 200 million and buy it back 9 years later for 800 million. I don't think that how the rich get richer.

B6&NK will dance down the road, question will be who acquires who. NK, two largest cities. FLL and now MCO. Sound familiar? I have no idea how big JFK is for B6.

hilltopflyer
09-22-2018, 06:41 AM
So let me get this right.

One guy says B6 merges with F9 and not NK, b/c NK has a different business model than B6? Dude, do you live under a rock? Facts are, F9 is NK 4 years ago. NK has worked hard to change its image especially in the customer service department. No more Ben emailing customers saying let them tell the world how bad we are.

One guy says Indgio is going to buy NK. Dude, wtf would they do that? They owned NK in 2010 and sold them. Here's a idea, let's sell airline A for 200 million and buy it back 9 years later for 800 million. I don't think that how the rich get richer.

B6&NK will dance down the road, question will be who acquires who. NK, two largest cities. FLL and now MCO. Sound familiar? I have no idea how big JFK is for B6.

Jfk is bigger then mco and fll put together probably.

Bluetruth
09-22-2018, 06:44 AM
JFK is more than double MCO/FLL put together. Also B6 is bigger than Spirit at MCO/FLL.

Please don't give us heartburn, the last thing we want is a merger with someone that won't move our contracts forward. B6 people dream of being bought by any of the big four, or if not that, Alaska.

PasserOGas
09-22-2018, 07:16 AM
JFK is more than double MCO/FLL put together. Also B6 is bigger than Spirit at MCO/FLL.

Please don't give us heartburn, the last thing we want is a merger with someone that won't move our contracts forward. B6 people dream of being bought by any of the big four, or if not that, Alaska.

Yeah, but management would love a merger of low rent pilots. We would fight over scraps, then vote yes to another subpar contract.

ecam
09-22-2018, 08:33 AM
Delta will be the one to buy Spirit. And I can't wait to see DALPA lose their minds when they do.

Trowserchilli
09-22-2018, 08:55 AM
So let me get this right.

One guy says B6 merges with F9 and not NK, b/c NK has a different business model than B6? Dude, do you live under a rock? Facts are, F9 is NK 4 years ago. NK has worked hard to change its image especially in the customer service department. No more Ben emailing customers saying let them tell the world how bad we are.

One guy says Indgio is going to buy NK. Dude, wtf would they do that? They owned NK in 2010 and sold them. Here's a idea, let's sell airline A for 200 million and buy it back 9 years later for 800 million. I don't think that how the rich get richer.

B6&NK will dance down the road, question will be who acquires who. NK, two largest cities. FLL and now MCO. Sound familiar? I have no idea how big JFK is for B6.

Good post. You left out F9 has the money to buy B6.

aldonite7667
09-22-2018, 09:03 AM
Jfk is bigger then mco and fll put together probably.

Thatís what she said.

aldonite7667
09-22-2018, 09:06 AM
Good post. You left out F9 has the money to buy B6.


If F9 had $10 Billion dollars it wouldn’t be such a * company with a 10 year old pilot contract. Step off with this garbage.

SFA320
09-22-2018, 09:20 AM
If F9 had $10 Billion dollars it wouldn’t be such a company with a 10 year old pilot contract. Step off with this garbage.

Unfortunately ”they” as in Indigo Partners have the dang money to pay us. It’s ran * by their choice, they keep it as cheap as possible. Plus Indigo has nothing but disdain towards pilots and labor in general. We will get a market rate contract...... but who knows when.

aldonite7667
09-22-2018, 09:56 AM
Unfortunately ”they” as in Indigo Partners have the dang money to pay us. It’s ran by their choice, they keep it as cheap as possible. Plus Indigo has nothing but disdain towards pilots and labor in general. We will get a market rate contract...... but who knows when.

I hope you do and soon. Those guys are dirt bags.

TrojanCMH
09-23-2018, 10:35 AM
Frontier isnít being sold until they are taken public. Theres too much money to be made to not wait. I also doubt JetBlue wants anything to do with the issues frontier has right now.

If anything maybe a Alaska/B6 merger and maybe Spirit and Frontier getting together sometime down the road. Or the majors buying up random smaller carriers for the pilots and newer planes. Either way Indigo wonít sell until there are stocks involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

CFDJC4
09-23-2018, 02:59 PM
https://youtu.be/XxRi91mtnQ4

Iím not specilsting anything but pay close attention to 4:36

dontsurf
09-23-2018, 08:47 PM
Iím not specilsting anything

I am very glad for that

PasserOGas
09-23-2018, 09:41 PM
https://youtu.be/XxRi91mtnQ4

Iím not specilsting anything but pay close attention to 4:36

Come on man. You are totally specilsting. You came in here just to specilst, and now that you have you deny it?

CFDJC4
09-23-2018, 11:42 PM
Bahaha! I tried editing my typo but I was too late. Anyways, everything still remains to be seen though.

sailingfun
09-24-2018, 05:11 AM
Frontier isnít being sold until they are taken public. Theres too much money to be made to not wait. I also doubt JetBlue wants anything to do with the issues frontier has right now.

If anything maybe a Alaska/B6 merger and maybe Spirit and Frontier getting together sometime down the road. Or the majors buying up random smaller carriers for the pilots and newer planes. Either way Indigo wonít sell until there are stocks involved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would the majors buy a airline for pilots or airplanes. Both are in abundant supply and itís far cheaper to hire pilots in at first year pay.

Bluedriver
09-24-2018, 06:21 AM
https://youtu.be/XxRi91mtnQ4

Iím not specilsting anything but pay close attention to 4:36

There's no "there" there.

TrojanCMH
09-24-2018, 06:35 AM
Why would the majors buy a airline for pilots or airplanes. Both are in abundant supply and itís far cheaper to hire pilots in at first year pay.



Airplanes arenít in abundant supply. But I see what youíre saying about the pilots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sailingfun
09-24-2018, 07:23 AM
Airplanes arenít in abundant supply. But I see what youíre saying about the pilots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

None of the majors are having trouble getting airframes. Many are delaying and deferring orders.

The701Express
09-24-2018, 07:31 AM
Airplanes arenít in abundant supply. But I see what youíre saying about the pilots.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Airbus and Boeing are both looking to increase their single aisle production rates. The supply chain is strained, but recovering. Planes aren't easy to come by, but it won't be impossible either if the production rate increases become reality.

What's harder to accomplish is convincing Wall Street to allow additional growth without tanking your stock price. An acquisition is the Wall Street approved method of quick growth.

ecam
09-24-2018, 09:53 AM
Why would the majors buy a airline for pilots or airplanes. Both are in abundant supply and it’s far cheaper to hire pilots in at first year pay.

DELTA may not have trouble getting airplanes, with orders on the "220" (glorified RJ), 321, 330, and 350 locked up, but just to let you know, there are other airlines besides the Almighty, lol

United has publicly stated that it is having hard time finding quality used airbi, and wants as many as they can get their hands on. Spirit and Frontier have gone all in on the NEO order books, and Allegiant has scoured the jungle and sandbox to find our airbi, most of which are in pretty good shape, plus the last 13 CEOs to roll off the assembly lines. Airbus has a 10 year backlog for new jets!

Also, pilots always have an overinflated sense of self importance in airline economics. To say that they won't buy an airline "because it's cheaper to hire them at year one" is laughable. When you're flying a $50m-$100m jet, does it really matter if you "could" have hired that pilot for $50/hr less. No it does not. It isn't even on the bean counters radar. What is on their radar is that the prospective pilot pool is emptying quickly. Just a couple of years ago, it was estimated that the legacy carriers all had at least 10,000 applicants on file. Now its estimated most have 2000-6000 and its rumored that even DELTA has been interviewing 3-4 tier candidates. Also those candidates are probably the same 2000-6000 that have applied to all of there big 4. So they are going to have to either dip deeper into the unvetted pool of regional pilots, many of them already deemed highly undesirable, or buy pilots already vetted and qualified on mainline equipment from a ULCC. Which makes more sense to you?

I predict that as soon as the economy falters, and we see airline stocks fall back into reasonable values, we are going to see another wave of consolidation. If the ULCCs don't merge with each other, they are going to get swallowed by AA/UA/DL. Mark my words.

Bluedriver
09-24-2018, 11:33 AM
New A321s are VERY easy to get, just buy the ones JB keeps deferring.

aldonite7667
09-24-2018, 12:20 PM
New A321s are VERY easy to get, just buy the ones JB keeps deferring.

Ummmm, we just took delivery of our 59th A321. Am I missing something?

Bluedriver
09-24-2018, 12:47 PM
Ummmm, we just took delivery of our 59th A321. Am I missing something?

Yes, we were scheduled to take 15 deliveries this year. And last year. And the year before. We didn't.... Same is true for next year I believe.

DASH8AV8R
09-24-2018, 01:16 PM
Yes, we were scheduled to take 15 deliveries this year. And last year. And the year before. We didn't.... Same is true for next year I believe.
6 321 CEOís this year, next is 13 321NEOís with the option to make them LRís.

Bluedriver
09-24-2018, 01:27 PM
6 321 CEOís this year, next is 13 321NEOís with the option to make them LRís.

Yes, that's the delivery schedule AFTER the deferrals (reduction in future deliveries) from a few years ago.

Bozo the pilot
09-24-2018, 04:51 PM
New A321s are VERY easy to get, just buy the ones JB keeps deferring.

I did lol here. :D

PasserOGas
09-24-2018, 07:00 PM
Ummmm, we just took delivery of our 59th A321. Am I missing something?

Yeah, we deferred some orders the past couple years. Growth has been slowing.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/102072-jb-slowing-growth-more-aircraft-deferrals.html

Rascal
09-24-2018, 07:28 PM
DELTA may not have trouble getting airplanes, with orders on the "220" (glorified RJ), 321, 330, and 350 locked up, but just to let you know, there are other airlines besides the Almighty, lol

United has publicly stated that it is having hard time finding quality used airbi, and wants as many as they can get their hands on. Spirit and Frontier have gone all in on the NEO order books, and Allegiant has scoured the jungle and sandbox to find our airbi, most of which are in pretty good shape, plus the last 13 CEOs to roll off the assembly lines. Airbus has a 10 year backlog for new jets!

Also, pilots always have an overinflated sense of self importance in airline economics. To say that they won't buy an airline "because it's cheaper to hire them at year one" is laughable. When you're flying a $50m-$100m jet, does it really matter if you "could" have hired that pilot for $50/hr less. No it does not. It isn't even on the bean counters radar. What is on their radar is that the prospective pilot pool is emptying quickly. Just a couple of years ago, it was estimated that the legacy carriers all had at least 10,000 applicants on file. Now its estimated most have 2000-6000 and its rumored that even DELTA has been interviewing 3-4 tier candidates. Also those candidates are probably the same 2000-6000 that have applied to all of there big 4. So they are going to have to either dip deeper into the unvetted pool of regional pilots, many of them already deemed highly undesirable, or buy pilots already vetted and qualified on mainline equipment from a ULCC. Which makes more sense to you?

I predict that as soon as the economy falters, and we see airline stocks fall back into reasonable values, we are going to see another wave of consolidation. If the ULCCs don't merge with each other, they are going to get swallowed by AA/UA/DL. Mark my words.

I doubt that Delta is running out of good pilots to hire unless experience, high GPA, and good training record is not what they are looking for. I know plenty of highly qualified pilots at JetBlue that trying hard to get out with very little success. Are JetBlue pilots 5th tier candidates since Delta hasn't gotten around to calling them yet?

atpcliff
09-25-2018, 01:22 AM
...What is on their radar is that the prospective pilot pool is emptying quickly. Just a couple of years ago, it was estimated that the legacy carriers all had at least 10,000 applicants on file. Now its estimated most have 2000-6000 and its rumored that even DELTA has been interviewing 3-4 tier candidates. Also those candidates are probably the same 2000-6000 that have applied to all of there big 4. So they are going to have to either dip deeper into the unvetted pool of regional pilots, many of them already deemed highly undesirable, or buy pilots already vetted and qualified on mainline equipment from a ULCC. Which makes more sense to you?


From two separate sources, who quoted AA HR: In 2017, AA had only 3000 resumes on file that met AA mins. They also said, in 2007, AA had 13,000 resumes on file that met AA mins.

Bluedriver
09-25-2018, 07:16 AM
Yeah, we deferred some orders the past couple years. Growth has been slowing.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/102072-jb-slowing-growth-more-aircraft-deferrals.html

Oh the memories! Funny to go back and read the old posts and some of the stupid things that were said defending JB...

"Oh they're making room for a wide-body" or "they were gonna be LRs"...

Yeah, no....

ecam
09-25-2018, 07:40 AM
I doubt that Delta is running out of good pilots to hire unless experience, high GPA, and good training record is not what they are looking for. I know plenty of highly qualified pilots at JetBlue that trying hard to get out with very little success. Are JetBlue pilots 5th tier candidates since Delta hasn't gotten around to calling them yet?

No I'm talking about the 25 year old girls with 2 years as a regional FO and no PIC time. Or the dude thats warmed the left seat of an RJ for 10 years with no other qualifications. I don't know much of anyone getting hired at the big 3 from an LCC/ULCC. It seems to have become a taint.

Judge Smails
09-25-2018, 06:53 PM
JFK is more than double MCO/FLL put together. Also B6 is bigger than Spirit at MCO/FLL.

Please don't give us heartburn, the last thing we want is a merger with someone that won't move our contracts forward. B6 people dream of being bought by any of the big four, or if not that, Alaska.

Believe me, most NK pilots donít dream of merging with B6 either. Your health insurance and reserve rules give me heartburn too.

hilltopflyer
09-25-2018, 07:38 PM
JFK is more than double MCO/FLL put together. Also B6 is bigger than Spirit at MCO/FLL.

Please don't give us heartburn, the last thing we want is a merger with someone that won't move our contracts forward. B6 people dream of being bought by any of the big four, or if not that, Alaska.

I donít think any b6 pilot wants to be bought by Alaska.

PasserOGas
09-25-2018, 08:40 PM
Believe me, most NK pilots donít dream of merging with B6 either. Your health insurance and reserve rules give me heartburn too.

But, but, we have an AMAZING CBA now! Just ask B6ALPA.

jtrain609
09-25-2018, 09:13 PM
I donít think any b6 pilot wants to be bought by Alaska.

Pretty sure every west coast commuter is salivating at the prospect.

seekingblue
09-26-2018, 04:32 AM
Believe me, most NK pilots donít dream of merging with B6 either. Your health insurance and reserve rules give me heartburn too.

Everyone loses in a merger.....

nkbux
09-26-2018, 05:33 AM
Everyone loses in a merger.....

Contracts aside... I agree, while none of us wish the other a bad merger...there are things in our book that you donít like and vice versa... all that aside...itís a monstrous powerhouse airline overnight (provided both NK and B6 management are shown the door)

SpeedV2
09-26-2018, 06:05 AM
Everyone loses in a merger.....

Except management, they can almost smell more bonuses.

Name User
09-26-2018, 10:03 AM
No I'm talking about the 25 year old girls with 2 years as a regional FO and no PIC time. Or the dude thats warmed the left seat of an RJ for 10 years with no other qualifications. I don't know much of anyone getting hired at the big 3 from an LCC/ULCC. It seems to have become a taint.

Had a newer guy in my jumpseat at AA who was hired from Spirit.

TransWorld
09-26-2018, 04:32 PM
Had a newer guy in my jumpseat at AA who was hired from Spirit.

Would not be at all surprise this becomes more common as the experienced Captains at the regionals become more scarce and the hiring with the big 6 ramps up.

InThisTogether
09-28-2018, 12:01 PM
Frontier guy here. I'm just curious why your management has been confirmed to be in and out of our headquarters for the last few weeks. I don't think we'll merge, but does anyone have any idea what they could be discussing?

I'm thinking Flight Attendant training, use of Sims, or something along those lines.

seekingblue
09-28-2018, 12:04 PM
Frontier guy here. I'm just curious why your management has been confirmed to be in and out of our headquarters for the last few weeks. I don't think we'll merge, but does anyone have any idea what they could be discussing?

I'm thinking Flight Attendant training, use of Sims, or something along those lines.

No clue. With our basic economy announcement, I wouldn't ever say never to a merger.

The most likely outcomes, however, are use of Sims, buying some A320 aircraft orders, etc.

aldonite7667
09-28-2018, 12:51 PM
Frontier guy here. I'm just curious why your management has been confirmed to be in and out of our headquarters for the last few weeks. I don't think we'll merge, but does anyone have any idea what they could be discussing?

I'm thinking Flight Attendant training, use of Sims, or something along those lines.

Looking to move the JFK herb garden to DEN due to air quality. I heard the negotiations are very contentious.

CaptCoolHand
09-28-2018, 01:06 PM
Looking to move the JFK herb garden to DEN due to air quality. I heard the negotiations are very contentious.

Do blue potatoes grow well at altitude?

CaptCoolHand
09-28-2018, 01:08 PM
Frontier guy here. I'm just curious why your management has been confirmed to be in and out of our headquarters for the last few weeks. I don't think we'll merge, but does anyone have any idea what they could be discussing?

I'm thinking Flight Attendant training, use of Sims, or something along those lines.

This statement always pops up here or there during these rumors... honestly even if I saw them with my own eyes and knew exactly who I was looking at and thereís no way Iíd ever know who that guy in a polo or suit was anyhow.... I still wouldnít believe it.

The701Express
09-28-2018, 01:18 PM
Do blue potatoes grow well at altitude?

Potatoes are native to the Andes, so yes!

CaptCoolHand
09-28-2018, 01:22 PM
Potatoes are native to the Andes, so yes!

A-mazing

Who knew!?

hyperboy
09-28-2018, 05:03 PM
Frontier guy here. I'm just curious why your management has been confirmed to be in and out of our headquarters for the last few weeks. I don't think we'll merge, but does anyone have any idea what they could be discussing?

I'm thinking Flight Attendant training, use of Sims, or something along those lines.

Uh Oh its happening....:D

hilltopflyer
09-28-2018, 05:07 PM
Uh Oh its happening....:D

Seems to always be that the frontier guys have confirmed sightings of b6 management haha. I have no idea what our guys look like, let alone another airlines.

SideFlare
09-28-2018, 06:38 PM
Seems to always be that the frontier guys have confirmed sightings of b6 management haha. I have no idea what our guys look like, let alone another airlines.

Dude, that new VP has had his face plastered over no fewer than 20 emails in September. Still couldnít pick him out of a lineup if you paid me.

InThisTogether
09-28-2018, 07:00 PM
Dude, that new VP has had his face plastered over no fewer than 20 emails in September. Still couldnít pick him out of a lineup of you paid me.

I'm 100% sure they have been at our headquarters. They were there 3-4 years ago though as well, so I'm not sure. But I can confirm that they were there. I'm not speculating a merger at all. Airbus bought our training center. It could be Airbus, JetBlue and the company all meeting about something. It could be anything really. But they have been in and out of there for the past two weeks.

SideFlare
09-28-2018, 07:07 PM
I believe you, Iím just saying that I canít ID our senior management (unless Wobin speaks). Maybe thatís my bad?

pilotpayne
09-28-2018, 07:28 PM
I'm 100% sure they have been at our headquarters. They were there 3-4 years ago though as well, so I'm not sure. But I can confirm that they were there. I'm not speculating a merger at all. Airbus bought our training center. It could be Airbus, JetBlue and the company all meeting about something. It could be anything really. But they have been in and out of there for the past two weeks.


So the ďrumorĒ over here was after the VA thing collapsed we put in an offer for F9 they told us more we offered more they said more we said forget it.

A little later F9 came to us with a number and we said no.

And now this.

Again all total rumor.
I wouldnít be shocked if we did merge but who knows.

InThisTogether
09-28-2018, 08:52 PM
So the ďrumorĒ over here was after the VA thing collapsed we put in an offer for F9 they told us more we offered more they said more we said forget it.

A little later F9 came to us with a number and we said no.

And now this.

Again all total rumor.
I wouldnít be shocked if we did merge but who knows.

That's what I was told from someone who works in our headquarters.

hilltopflyer
09-28-2018, 10:05 PM
So the ďrumorĒ over here was after the VA thing collapsed we put in an offer for F9 they told us more we offered more they said more we said forget it.

A little later F9 came to us with a number and we said no.

And now this.

Again all total rumor.
I wouldnít be shocked if we did merge but who knows.
I could see it especially if we got all the aircraft orders that they have in store. Getting a huge chunk of mco in the process and getting some west coast gates.

pilotpayne
09-28-2018, 10:46 PM
I could see it especially if we got all the aircraft orders that they have in store. Getting a huge chunk of mco in the process and getting some west coast gates.

Well it would stop the future Spirit Frontier merger.

We would get all the orders

We would have a much better route structure

Respectfully there wouldnít be a brand/name fight like an Alaska JetBlue merger. Iím pretty sure it would be the JetBlue name with JetBlue management(ehhhh)

Again who knows but itís certainly a possibility. I think we are just to small we need to bulk up to compete and this would be a quick way of doing it.

Now with oil moving up again and Delta and SWA all over us we need something. It seems like we either buy someone on our terms or we are getting bought and will have little say in anything (elt wise)

hilltopflyer
09-29-2018, 02:14 AM
Well it would stop the future Spirit Frontier merger.

We would get all the orders

We would have a much better route structure

Respectfully there wouldnít be a brand/name fight like an Alaska JetBlue merger. Iím pretty sure it would be the JetBlue name with JetBlue management(ehhhh)

Again who knows but itís certainly a possibility. I think we are just to small we need to bulk up to compete and this would be a quick way of doing it.

Now with oil moving up again and Delta and SWA all over us we need something. It seems like we either buy someone on our terms or we are getting bought and will have little say in anything (elt wise)

I agree with everything you are saying.

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 03:47 AM
Well it would stop the future Spirit Frontier merger.

We would get all the orders

We would have a much better route structure

Respectfully there wouldnít be a brand/name fight like an Alaska JetBlue merger. Iím pretty sure it would be the JetBlue name with JetBlue management(ehhhh)

Again who knows but itís certainly a possibility. I think we are just to small we need to bulk up to compete and this would be a quick way of doing it.

Now with oil moving up again and Delta and SWA all over us we need something. It seems like we either buy someone on our terms or we are getting bought and will have little say in anything (elt wise)

Or Indigo is buying B6. They have the money. They just ordered over 400 acft.

hilltopflyer
09-29-2018, 04:58 AM
Or Indigo is buying B6. They have the money. They just ordered over 400 acft.

They want to buy at a discount like they got spirit. Then frontier. B6 would be at a premium.

CaptCoolHand
09-29-2018, 06:17 AM
Well who was it then? Vp of what?

I'm 100% sure they have been at our headquarters. They were there 3-4 years ago though as well, so I'm not sure. But I can confirm that they were there. I'm not speculating a merger at all. Airbus bought our training center. It could be Airbus, JetBlue and the company all meeting about something. It could be anything really. But they have been in and out of there for the past two weeks.

IWalkJun12
09-29-2018, 07:58 AM
It amazes me the lack of thought some of these post have.

Indigo is not buying B6, NK, WN, DAL, UAL, NWA, EAL or Pan Am.

Indigo is a investment group. Please spend some time researching what they do. Short verson, buy struggling companies, grow them, make them profitable and sell for huge profits.

Basically They flip houses on a much larger scale.

When they have drained F9 for what their expected return was, that's when F9 will be sold. 3 months prior to that the pilots will get a contract.

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 10:48 AM
It amazes me the lack of thought some of these post have.

Indigo is not buying B6, NK, WN, DAL, UAL, NWA, EAL or Pan Am.

Indigo is a investment group. Please spend some time researching what they do. Short verson, buy struggling companies, grow them, make them profitable and sell for huge profits.

Basically They flip houses on a much larger scale.

When they have drained F9 for what their expected return was, that's when F9 will be sold. 3 months prior to that the pilots will get a contract.

Not true. What airline have they ďflippedĒ?

Chief Brody
09-29-2018, 10:50 AM
Not true. What airline have they “flipped”?

Spirit and Wizz Air

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/08/01/spirit-airlines-biggest-shareholder-is-selling.aspx

hilltopflyer
09-29-2018, 12:20 PM
Not true. What airline have they ďflippedĒ?

Ainít it sad you fail miserable.

Name User
09-29-2018, 01:15 PM
Past airline mergers are about buying ones competition not buying to expand.

I just don't see what a Frontier purchase would really do for jetBlue. They have a relatively small amount of flying out of jetBlue hubs and most of their route structure is point to point while jetBlue is hub/spoke. I still maintain a much better buy would be Spirit with their MCO and FLL hubs growing in JetBlue's backyard. I can also see SWA interested in Spirit for the same reasons.

That being said if anyone was going to make a move on Spirit it would've been last year when the stock was down to 2014 pricing levels and lots of bad press.

flapshalfspeed
09-29-2018, 02:09 PM
Past airline mergers are about buying ones competition not buying to expand.

I just don't see what a Frontier purchase would really do for jetBlue. They have a relatively small amount of flying out of jetBlue hubs and most of their route structure is point to point while jetBlue is hub/spoke. I still maintain a much better buy would be Spirit with their MCO and FLL hubs growing in JetBlue's backyard. I can also see SWA interested in Spirit for the same reasons.

That being said if anyone was going to make a move on Spirit it would've been last year when the stock was down to 2014 pricing levels and lots of bad press.

The vast majority of JetBlue passengers would literally walk off the plane if, after boarding, they were faced with the abhorrent seats and legroom and overall greyhound-bus-feel of Spiritís fleet/operation.

Spirit is lower-quality customer experience than MegaBus or Amtrak or many public transit systems even! It would be virtually impossible to integrate their operation into ours unless we literally gut-reconfigure every single airframe before reintroducing it into service.

Based on how long itís taking us to revamp our own 320s, the timeline to re-do Spiritís fleet to come even close to the experience our passengers expect and demand, wellóthe lost capital utilization makes the proposition of Spirit + B6 pretty insane.

PasserOGas
09-29-2018, 02:15 PM
Past airline mergers are about buying ones competition not buying to expand.

I just don't see what a Frontier purchase would really do for jetBlue. They have a relatively small amount of flying out of jetBlue hubs and most of their route structure is point to point while jetBlue is hub/spoke. I still maintain a much better buy would be Spirit with their MCO and FLL hubs growing in JetBlue's backyard. I can also see SWA interested in Spirit for the same reasons.

That being said if anyone was going to make a move on Spirit it would've been last year when the stock was down to 2014 pricing levels and lots of bad press.

Except our planned purchase of VX was about growth. There was some competition but they were mostly west coast. It gives insight into our ELTs logic. The product was a much closer match there though.

Also B6 is point to point. If we tried hub and spoke with our on time performance we would face a class action lawsuit.

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 03:35 PM
:DAinít it sad you fail miserable.

No actually.
The reason Franke sold his shares in Spirit was to buy Frontier. It wasnít a Spirit, ďairline flipĒ.

He wanted Spirit to buy Frontier out of bankruptcy. The board wouldnít go along with it. He divested his/Indigos interest and used the money to buy Frontier himself.

Again everyone likes to toss around that Indigo buys airlines and flips them. Yet nobody can name one example. I just debunked Spirit for you. Indigo never owned Whizz Air. They owned a minor stake in the airline at around 17%.

What Airlines has Indigo flipped?

Klsytakesit
09-29-2018, 05:02 PM
I donít think any b6 pilot wants to be bought by Alaska.
I can assure you that no Alaska pilot wants to be bought/merged with JetBlue. Yes you likely have a better contract but the tie-up of 2 airlines with no purpose or direction would guarantee a bankruptcy or worse.

Flyby1206
09-29-2018, 05:51 PM
Except our planned purchase of VX was about growth. There was some competition but they were mostly west coast. It gives insight into our ELTs logic. The product was a much closer match there though.

Also B6 is point to point. If we tried hub and spoke with our on time performance we would face a class action lawsuit.

I think you are believing the management rhetoric about "VX merger was about growth." The real reason was as previously stated, to eliminate a competitor. VX was the only lower cost transcon competitor to us. Mint is JetBlue's baby and huge revenue driver. Eliminate the only real competition and we have the market cornered.

Name User
09-29-2018, 06:05 PM
I think you are believing the management rhetoric about "VX merger was about growth." The real reason was as previously stated, to eliminate a competitor. VX was the only lower cost transcon competitor to us. Mint is JetBlue's baby and huge revenue driver. Eliminate the only real competition and we have the market cornered.

Yep exactly. And here is another fun fact, roughly 3 out of every 4 passengers are once a year flyers, and are very price sensitive.

Spirit may not capture all your passengers but they are snagging enough to make a difference and drive PRASM down. They are taking pax from AA, Delta, and United as well as SWA. That is why these companies have introduced super duper economy fares. Wait...didn't another airline just announce this same fare structure? Oh I think it did...it was jetBlue!

Obviously the ULCC model is skimming enough that they need to compete. Why compete when you can just buy them? And buying them would help them lock up FLL and give them significant market presence in MCO. The name of the game these days is fortress hubs.

No one can compete with Spirit. Their CASM is the lowest of all carriers including Allegiant and Frontier. They have an incredible cost advantage on the legacies and even enjoy an almost 40% advantage on SWA.

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 06:15 PM
Yep exactly. And here is another fun fact, roughly 3 out of every 4 passengers are once a year flyers, and are very price sensitive.

Spirit may not capture all your passengers but they are snagging enough to make a difference and drive PRASM down. They are taking pax from AA, Delta, and United as well as SWA. That is why these companies have introduced super duper economy fares. Wait...didn't another airline just announce this same fare structure? Oh I think it did...it was jetBlue!

Obviously the ULCC model is skimming enough that they need to compete. Why compete when you can just buy them? And buying them would help them lock up FLL and give them significant market presence in MCO. The name of the game these days is fortress hubs.

No one can compete with Spirit. Their CASM is the lowest of all carriers including Allegiant and Frontier. They have an incredible cost advantage on the legacies and even enjoy an almost 40% advantage on SWA.

Good post except Frontier has a lower CASM than Spirit.

Flyby1206
09-29-2018, 06:28 PM
Yep exactly. And here is another fun fact, roughly 3 out of every 4 passengers are once a year flyers, and are very price sensitive.

Spirit may not capture all your passengers but they are snagging enough to make a difference and drive PRASM down. They are taking pax from AA, Delta, and United as well as SWA. That is why these companies have introduced super duper economy fares. Wait...didn't another airline just announce this same fare structure? Oh I think it did...it was jetBlue!

Obviously the ULCC model is skimming enough that they need to compete. Why compete when you can just buy them? And buying them would help them lock up FLL and give them significant market presence in MCO. The name of the game these days is fortress hubs.

No one can compete with Spirit. Their CASM is the lowest of all carriers including Allegiant and Frontier. They have an incredible cost advantage on the legacies and even enjoy an almost 40% advantage on SWA.

Agreed. B6+NK would be an interesting combo because it would dominate Florida like you said, but would also leave F9 twisting in the wind with no dance partner and no real big hub presence outside of DEN.

Name User
09-29-2018, 06:47 PM
Good post except Frontier has a lower CASM than Spirit.

Maybe they do nowadays with the new contract at Spirit. But either way their CASM-ex are similar, within a few % points.

aldonite7667
09-29-2018, 07:00 PM
I can assure you that no Alaska pilot wants to be bought/merged with JetBlue. Yes you likely have a better contract but the tie-up of 2 airlines with no purpose or direction would guarantee a bankruptcy or worse.

Donít worry, we want no part of a merger with Alaska either. 80 years of bad contracts and a bunch of blue haired captains is not very attractive to me at least.

BeatNavy
09-29-2018, 07:07 PM
I think you are believing the management rhetoric about "VX merger was about growth." The real reason was as previously stated, to eliminate a competitor. VX was the only lower cost transcon competitor to us. Mint is JetBlue's baby and huge revenue driver. Eliminate the only real competition and we have the market cornered.

Thatís not entirely true. AA has A321Ts with heavy premium configs. I prefer their lie flat biz seat product to our mint, and Iíve seen it priced cheaper than our mint on occasion. Iíve also seen Delta One transcons priced lower than our mint...Iíve never flown Delta One but itís comparable to mint. No idea how their yields are on those flights compared to ours, but I donít think we have the market cornered by any means. Donít take my word for it, go try to book a mint JFK-LAX flight on us, AA, and DL for various October days. Lots of similarly priced, similar products. We disrupted the market, but are easily copied. Re VX, VX was for sale, period. They were going away regardless and were to be absorbed into whomever bought them. Slots and gate space on the west coast is all we really wanted from them. Just my opinion tho...Iím merely a pilot, not a CEO.

CaptCoolHand
09-29-2018, 07:13 PM
I can assure you that no Alaska pilot wants to be bought/merged with JetBlue. Yes you likely have a better contract but the tie-up of 2 airlines with no purpose or direction would guarantee a bankruptcy or worse.

I have to disagree. I think this is really the only match that makes sense. Merging the east and west operations, similar fleet sizes, other than the pain of another CBA negotiation and SLI the blewLaska would be a new powerhouse.

Imo this this would be the least painful from a pilot integration standpoint. It would also allow us both to address the shortcomings of the recent contracts.

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 07:33 PM
Maybe they do nowadays with the new contract at Spirit. But either way their CASM-ex are similar, within a few % points.

F9s CASM went lower than Spirits in 2016. Albeit itís still today within a few % points but itís lower.

Powderkeg
09-29-2018, 07:35 PM
Agreed. B6+NK would be an interesting combo because it would dominate Florida like you said, but would also leave F9 twisting in the wind with no dance partner and no real big hub presence outside of DEN.

Maybe...

But I wouldnít go so far as to say F9 would be in the wind. Indigo has locked up most of the new domestic Airbus deliveries for quite some time. You could probably find some 319ís but that increases an airlineís CASM when compared to a 320/321. You could buy another type but again, hurt your bottom line.

In your NK/B6 merger you take NK who is trying to distance themselves from the ULCC label and B6 who never really has wanted to be a ULCC. You have a combined airline with an identity crisis and no viable airplanes to expand economically. While F9 continues to take their deliveries and gain on NK/B6. Sure F9 would probably not surpass NK/B6 in size but would lay claim the being the only domestic ULCC.

Another poster said it, ďIndigo isnít flipping F9Ē, and I agree. They want to be a global ULCC. Yet another poster said, ďmergers arenít about growth but about eliminating competitionĒ, and I agree with that too. NK, B6 and F9 are all doing just fine on their own. The only airlines I see that need to eliminate competition are the legacies wanting to quash the ULCC threat for good. That leaves NK and F9 as the targets and B6 ďtwisting in the windĒ.

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 07:41 PM
Maybe...

But I wouldnít go so far as to say F9 would be in the wind. Indigo has locked up most of the new domestic Airbus deliveries for quite some time. You could probably find some 319ís but that increases an airlineís CASM when compared to a 320/321. You could buy another type but again, hurt your bottom line.

In your NK/B6 merger you take NK who is trying to distance themselves from the ULCC label and B6 who never really has wanted to be a ULCC. You have a combined airline with an identity crisis and no viable airplanes to expand economically. While F9 continues to take their deliveries and gain on NK/B6. Sure F9 would probably not surpass NK/B6 in size but would lay claim the being the only domestic ULCC.

Another poster said it, ďIndigo isnít flipping F9Ē, and I agree. They want to be a global ULCC. Yet another poster said, ďmergers arenít about growth but about eliminating competitionĒ, and I agree with that too. NK, B6 and F9 are all doing just fine on their own. The only airlines I see that need to eliminate competition are the legacies wanting to quash the ULCC threat for good. That leaves NK and F9 as the targets and B6 ďtwisting in the windĒ.

This is a very good post.

NK needs nobody as a ďdancing partnerĒ. F9 needs nobody as a ďdancing partnerĒ. The two are the only real competition for each other.
The only competition to the ULCC business model is Greyhound, Amtrak and the family automobile.

Name User
09-29-2018, 07:46 PM
Maybe...

But I wouldnít go so far as to say F9 would be in the wind. Indigo has locked up most of the new domestic Airbus deliveries for quite some time. You could probably find some 319ís but that increases an airlineís CASM when compared to a 320/321. You could buy another type but again, hurt your bottom line.

In your NK/B6 merger you take NK who is trying to distance themselves from the ULCC label and B6 who never really has wanted to be a ULCC. You have a combined airline with an identity crisis and no viable airplanes to expand economically. While F9 continues to take their deliveries and gain on NK/B6. Sure F9 would probably not surpass NK/B6 in size but would lay claim the being the only domestic ULCC.

Another poster said it, ďIndigo isnít flipping F9Ē, and I agree. They want to be a global ULCC. Yet another poster said, ďmergers arenít about growth but about eliminating competitionĒ, and I agree with that too. NK, B6 and F9 are all doing just fine on their own. The only airlines I see that need to eliminate competition are the legacies wanting to quash the ULCC threat for good. That leaves NK and F9 as the targets and B6 ďtwisting in the windĒ.

How many more airplanes does jetBlue need? Spirit has something like 50+ more deliveries coming thru 2021.

Name User
09-29-2018, 07:48 PM
The two are the only real competition for each other.
The only competition to the ULCC business model is Greyhound, Amtrak and the family automobile.

If what you say is true, why has AA, Delta, United, and now jetBlue started offering basic economy fares to compete with the ULCC ticket price?

Trowserchilli
09-29-2018, 08:01 PM
If what you say is true, why has AA, Delta, United, and now jetBlue started offering basic economy fares to compete with the ULCC ticket price?

The ones you mentioned are going down the same path they’ve gone down for decades. De-value their own product so they think they’ll compete. It never worked with Song, Metro Jet, Ted or any others. ULCCs focus on leisure travelers which is a small percentage of revenue to the Legacies.

Just my opinion I don’t think that’s the answer today. SWA hasn’t.
I think the folks you mentioned should double down on what they do well. Offer a superior product and market to the public why it’s superior.

Name User
09-29-2018, 08:21 PM
The ones you mentioned are going down the same path theyíve gone down for decades. De-value their own product so they think theyíll compete. It never worked with Song, Metro Jet, Ted or any others. ULCCs focus on leisure travelers which is a small percentage of revenue to the Legacies.

Just my opinion I donít think thatís the answer today. SWA hasnít.
I think the folks you mentioned should double down on what they do well. Offer a superior product and market to the public why itís superior.
Leisure/once a year flyers make up 75% of the people on your airplane.

You might need to define what "small percentage" is...

While there are business travelers that fly a lot, there are a lot of people who fly just once a year and they far outnumber the business traveler folks as well as revenue from them.

Macjet
09-29-2018, 09:36 PM
I think it would be bold to stroll into DEN when Southwest and United basically hold a monopoly.

Minor correction but it's a duopoly.

ShyGuy
09-29-2018, 09:42 PM
i can assure you that no alaska pilot wants to be bought/merged with jetblue.

I do !!!!!!!!

Bluedriver
09-30-2018, 06:14 AM
I'm surrounded by morons.

Flyby1206
09-30-2018, 06:36 AM
Thatís not entirely true. AA has A321Ts with heavy premium configs. I prefer their lie flat biz seat product to our mint, and Iíve seen it priced cheaper than our mint on occasion. Iíve also seen Delta One transcons priced lower than our mint...Iíve never flown Delta One but itís comparable to mint. No idea how their yields are on those flights compared to ours, but I donít think we have the market cornered by any means. Donít take my word for it, go try to book a mint JFK-LAX flight on us, AA, and DL for various October days. Lots of similarly priced, similar products. We disrupted the market, but are easily copied. Re VX, VX was for sale, period. They were going away regardless and were to be absorbed into whomever bought them. Slots and gate space on the west coast is all we really wanted from them. Just my opinion tho...Iím merely a pilot, not a CEO.

That may be true today, but it wasnít when the VX merger was on the table.

TimetoClimb
09-30-2018, 07:00 AM
From two separate sources, who quoted AA HR: In 2017, AA had only 3000 resumes on file that met AA mins. They also said, in 2007, AA had 13,000 resumes on file that met AA mins.

How is this possible ? SWA got 5000 some odd job fair applicants in a matter of days during the last opening.

TransWorld
09-30-2018, 07:57 AM
How is this possible ? SWA got 5000 some odd job fair applicants in a matter of days during the last opening.

How many were qualified based on SWA standards? That is always the proviso for all of these numbers.

Where is your source for the 5,000 number?

Was that the number of qualified applicants? How many qualified applicants did they have on file, already? These new applicants, or were most ones that had previously applied?

Something sounds fishy to me.

pilotpayne
09-30-2018, 09:09 AM
I'm surrounded by morons.

So you should feel right at home :)

Rabid Seagull
09-30-2018, 09:22 AM
I'll jump on the moron bandwagon ( jump back on...).

Jetblue execs have been in Denver only to show F9 execs what they can have when a UAL / JB merger happens. Lil bit of NY, MA, and more FL.

Happy Merger Monday everyone😄

BunkerF16
09-30-2018, 09:30 AM
I'll jump on the moron bandwagon ( jump back on...).

Jetblue execs have been in Denver only to show F9 execs what they can have when a UAL / JB merger happens. Lil bit of NY, MA, and more FL.

Happy Merger Monday everyone😄


Wut?


Why would JB execs go to F9 to talk about UA/JB merger?

Bluedriver
09-30-2018, 09:42 AM
So you should feel right at home :)

You're right, I'm pretty used to it by now. But one or two of these other airline internet CEOs are even worse than usual.

Especially poopy-pants. I've read his other posts before, NOT a genius...

pilotpayne
09-30-2018, 09:55 AM
Your right, I'm pretty used to it by now. But one or two of these other airline internet CEOs are even worse than usual.

Especially poopy-pants. I've read his other posts before, NOT a genius...


Poopy pants?

Yeah who the heck knows these days.
Itís pretty much pointless to even guess.

CaptCoolHand
09-30-2018, 10:31 AM
You're right, I'm pretty used to it by now. But one or two of these other airline internet CEOs are even worse than usual.

Especially poopy-pants. I've read his other posts before, NOT a genius...

Beer out nose!
Poopypants😆😂

Called an FA poopy pants one time and she came unhinged. CP asks if I called said FA poopypants. Yes yes I did...

In his best attempt to remain professional and ďpunishĒ me.
ďPlease be more respectful when dealing with our inflight crew membersĒ

I will.

CaptCoolHand
09-30-2018, 10:32 AM
How many were qualified based on SWA standards? That is always the proviso for all of these numbers.

Where is your source for the 5,000 number?

Was that the number of qualified applicants? How many qualified applicants did they have on file, already? These new applicants, or were most ones that had previously applied?

Something sounds fishy to me.

I had an app on with fedex and delta with 250hrs.

Bluedriver
09-30-2018, 02:38 PM
JB+Frontier may very well be in play.

Bluedriver
09-30-2018, 02:38 PM
I had an app on with fedex and delta with 250hrs.

They didn't snap you up?

CaptCoolHand
09-30-2018, 03:10 PM
They didn't snap you up?

Apparently.... not.

Wheelswatch
10-01-2018, 08:05 AM
JB+Frontier may very well be in play. May I ask what additional information prompts this speculation?

butthert
10-01-2018, 08:17 AM
May I ask what additional information prompts this speculation?

Rumors spread by F9 middle managers trying to attract new hires. They are getting desperate.

Wheelswatch
10-01-2018, 08:21 AM
Rumors spread by F9 middle managers trying to attract new hires. They are getting desperate.

Nail on the head!:D

Flyby1206
10-01-2018, 08:26 AM
The fact that F9 still hasnít IPOíd shows how bad things are. The longer they delay the lower the valuation will drop and more likely for a buyout/merger with someone.

Bluedriver
10-01-2018, 09:30 AM
Rumors spread by F9 middle managers trying to attract new hires. They are getting desperate.

New hires are desperate to be part of Frontier? That's hilarious.

butthert
10-01-2018, 09:59 AM
New hires are desperate to be part of Frontier? That's hilarious.

Yep there are still a few...:rolleyes:
And the "hope" of an F9+JB merger/buyout only attracts those types.

PasserOGas
10-01-2018, 10:21 AM
Rumors spread by F9 middle managers trying to attract new hires. They are getting desperate.

Wait, they are hoping to get bought by B6? That is so sad.

Bluedriver
10-01-2018, 11:19 AM
Wait, they are hoping to get bought by B6? That is so sad.

It's all relative bud.

It's time to let it go and just enjoy what you can of the next 7-8 years. Occasional reminders of the mistakes we made are fine, but every post and every time is too much man. Respectfully.

PasserOGas
10-01-2018, 01:51 PM
It's all relative bud.

It's time to let it go and just enjoy what you can of the next 7-8 years. Occasional reminders of the mistakes we made are fine, but every post and every time is too much man. Respectfully.

I just think if you want to get bought, dream of UAL.

Bozo the pilot
10-01-2018, 02:45 PM
I just think if you want to get bought, dream of UAL.

^^^ this all day^^^

CaptCoolHand
10-01-2018, 03:32 PM
I just think if you want to get bought, dream of UAL.

No... no no no....

NOOOOOOOOOOO!


nope. no
nopidy nope nope nope.

BunkerF16
10-01-2018, 03:57 PM
No... no no no....

NOOOOOOOOOOO!


nope. no
nopidy nope nope nope.


You'd rather stay independent or merge with F9 or SWA?

aldonite7667
10-01-2018, 03:58 PM
No... no no no....

NOOOOOOOOOOO!


nope. no
nopidy nope nope nope.

As long as Iím senior to my buddy over there who is a huge DB. Everyone has a buddy like that. If you donít... guess who it is ;-)

hilltopflyer
10-01-2018, 03:59 PM
As long as Iím senior to my buddy over there who is a huge DB. Everyone has a buddy like that. If you donít... guess who it is ;-)

I just donít have buddies :(

CaptCoolHand
10-01-2018, 04:56 PM
You'd rather stay independent or merge with F9 or SWA?

Independent
F9
But F9 really brings nothing to the table we can’t have on our own.
Given the SWA choice... no no no. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Unless I’m senior to my cousin... and an Mco captain still. Then &@$# it. SWA.

Super EZ E
10-01-2018, 05:16 PM
F9 is a train wreck, the only ones talking about merger is F9. No one wants anything to do with F9. Convince a Board that F9 adds to the bottom line and the rest will take care of it's self. No value in adding F9 to JB or NKS. The airframe argument makes no sense. It's not that hard to get airframes. Buy are turd so you can get Airframes? No. UAL purchased 42 A319's from Asia.

hilltopflyer
10-02-2018, 12:48 AM
Primera air just went out of business. So thatís a ton of 321 neos up for sale

BeatNavy
10-02-2018, 04:14 AM
Primera air just went out of business. So thatís a ton of 321 neos up for sale

They have 5...with one order remaining.

Bluedriver
10-02-2018, 05:02 AM
They have 5...with one order remaining.

Yeah, but each NEO weighs almost 200,000lbs. See, tons!

Beechnut
10-02-2018, 06:03 AM
Yeah, but each NEO weighs almost 200,000lbs. See, tons!




HAHA! :) .... however filler ain't funny.

hilltopflyer
10-02-2018, 06:04 AM
They have 5...with one order remaining.

Ya I know. Forgot to turn on the sarcasm font. Haha. The guy above was saying there are a ton of 321s laying around.

pilotpayne
10-02-2018, 06:14 AM
Yeah, but each NEO weighs almost 200,000lbs. See, tons!

I was going to ask about your definition of ďtonsĒ. Lol

Ted Striker
10-02-2018, 06:28 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed/2018/10/02/jetblue-at-a-crossroads-kick-the-big-three-where-itll-hurt-most-or-convince-one-of-them-to-buy-it/amp/

Learjet driver
10-04-2018, 05:53 AM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielreed/2018/10/02/jetblue-at-a-crossroads-kick-the-big-three-where-itll-hurt-most-or-convince-one-of-them-to-buy-it/amp/


Here comes the SLI fight.

United: you will all be stapled

JetBlue: we all deserve to be senior 777/787 Capts

Reality: you will all be stapled :D

Bluedriver
10-04-2018, 06:40 AM
With respect to the article, it may take an actual order (not a virtual order, like our "virtual spare aircraft") and an actual transatlantic announcement (not a virtual announcement) to provoke a purchase.

So, in short, we will never get bought...

aldonite7667
10-04-2018, 06:55 AM
Here comes the SLI fight.

United: you will all be stapled

JetBlue: we all deserve to be senior 777/787 Capts

Reality: you will all be stapled :D


Are you kidding? Preferential interview for captains only. FOís reapply.

jtrain609
10-04-2018, 07:10 AM
Are you kidding? Preferential interview for captains only. FOís reapply.

There are FO's here who would jump at the opportunity.

BunkerF16
10-04-2018, 08:07 AM
Here comes the SLI fight.

United: you will all be stapled

JetBlue: we all deserve to be senior 777/787 Capts

Reality: you will all be stapled :D


I know you're just joking, but for the benefit of those who don't know how SLIs work, that's not how it would end up. Not even close.

elmetal
10-04-2018, 08:42 AM
I know you're just joking, but for the benefit of those who don't know how SLIs work, that's not how it would end up. Not even close.

Well, not since TWA got put through the ringer.


Staple, Oh and by the way, furlough

jtrain609
10-04-2018, 08:47 AM
I know you're just joking, but for the benefit of those who don't know how SLIs work, that's not how it would end up. Not even close.

Correct, and for clarification, it's because of McCaskill-Bond, which codified Mohawk-Allegheny protections that prevent a staple.

Learjet driver
10-04-2018, 09:16 AM
I know you're just joking, but for the benefit of those who don't know how SLIs work, that's not how it would end up. Not even close.

No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.

jtrain609
10-04-2018, 09:22 AM
No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.

Staples.

Are.

Unlawful.

Under.

Federal.

Statute.

Please don't keep saying this crap when you have no idea what you're talking about, because there are people following along at home who will believe you.

Here's some actual fact, from the ABA, on the issue:

https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/labor_law/2012/03/railway_airline_labor_law_committee_midwinter_meet ing/mw2012rla_jermanjoshi.authcheckdam.pdf

BunkerF16
10-04-2018, 09:37 AM
No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.


Then you're dangerously ignorant. Stop posting on this subject. You're offering nothing of value, and actually counterproductive to providing information relevant to discussion.

nuball5
10-04-2018, 10:47 AM
No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.

Sorry but you're in the wrong profession if you have any expectations with this job. No one would care about your expectations in a merger. Just like no one cared after 9/11 and everyone was furloughing. Also zero chance of a staple.

Bluedriver
10-04-2018, 11:02 AM
No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.

Yeah, no. No chance of a straight staple.

ShyGuy
10-04-2018, 11:59 AM
If you care about these kinds of things, ensure you have a nice supply of popcorn for a certain SLI result coming out in one week. :D

pilotpayne
10-04-2018, 04:29 PM
No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.


Oh how fun an ALPA/ALPA staple and our 1999 hires under 2014 hires at United. Yeah thatís exactly how it would work. Look I wouldnít think our guys would be wide body captains but your post is idiotic at best.


Man I could have saved the typing and just looked at your other posts and that you work for United.....lesson learned.

hilltopflyer
10-04-2018, 04:45 PM
Oh how fun an ALPA/ALPA staple and our 1999 hires under 2014 hires at United. Yeah thatís exactly how it would work. Look I wouldnít think our guys would be wide body captains but your post is idiotic at best.


Man I could have saved the typing and just looked at your other posts and that you work for United.....lesson learned.

Works for united but still Ďdrivesí a Learjet, not just a lear

aldonite7667
10-04-2018, 05:52 PM
Works for united but still Ďdrivesí a Learjet, not just a lear

His head is cocked to the left and not the right.

ShyGuy
10-04-2018, 06:23 PM
Oh how fun an ALPA/ALPA staple and our 1999 hires under 2014 hires at United. Yeah thatís exactly how it would work. Look I wouldnít think our guys would be wide body captains but your post is idiotic at best.


Man I could have saved the typing and just looked at your other posts and that you work for United.....lesson learned.

1999 vs 2014? Ha :D


Try 1979 versus 2006. What would be fair here? You're about to find out what an arbitrator says in T minus 7 days.

CLRtoPush
10-04-2018, 07:43 PM
United and JetBlue, two confused companies coming together. A perfect match.

Name User
10-04-2018, 08:22 PM
Guys, United isn't buying jetBlue. Let it go.

Acehole
10-04-2018, 08:31 PM
Guys, United isn't buying jetBlue. Let it go.

Correct....
UAL is buying Frontier.
😂

seekingblue
10-04-2018, 08:51 PM
Guys, United isn't buying jetBlue. Let it go.

Actually, Jetblue is buying UAL😀

hilltopflyer
10-04-2018, 09:43 PM
Actually, Jetblue is buying UAL😀

Did you not hear jetblue is buying ual then we are going bankrupt and then indigo is buying the new blunited for pennies on the dollar. Then they will flip us (even though they donít flip airlines) and make a yuuuuge profit.

WhiteHammer
10-04-2018, 10:32 PM
No...... Iím pretty sure that is how it will be. United has 5 year narrow body Capts with widebody Capt expectations. Your senior Capts have all maxed their expectations. They will be merged with 2014 hires and then fenced off of anything bigger then a 737 or A320 for lots of years. Thatís if they donít get stapled.


Lol, narrow body Captains that are what 80, 85% company wide? None of our AB Captains are that junior. Sneak in on a bid when nobody else wants it. Those guys would go back to the right seat of a narrow body, possibly a 100 seater.

aldonite7667
10-05-2018, 02:54 AM
Actually, Jetblue is buying UAL😀

I said that to a United crew while jumpseating. I blew their mind. Lol totally worth the crazy looks.

Learjet driver
10-05-2018, 06:46 AM
Sorry but you're in the wrong profession if you have any expectations with this job. No one would care about your expectations in a merger. Just like no one cared after 9/11 and everyone was furloughing. Also zero chance of a staple.

Fortunately ALPA has a different opinion than you do. This is what is taken into account during an ALPA merger. Career expectations, longevity, and status and category in no particular order and with no particular weight. Career expectations is part of it. The new hires I fly with have better career expectations than a JetBlue Airbus Capt.

All of you are correct, the JetBlue seniority list wonít be stapled to the bottom of Unitedís but it will not reflect a relative seniority integration. Relative seniority is not part of ALPAís merger policy. The most senior JB Capt is a 2000 hire? A United 2000 hire is a 777/787 FO or a A320/737 Capt. So a UAL 2000 hire has more or the same longevity as most senior JB Capts, has better career expectations and is in the same or better status and class.

So where do your most senior Capts start getting slotted in? Remember we have 5year Capts now with better career expectations and the same status and category. They only lag in the longevity..... My guess is junior to the UAL 2000 hires and mixed in the rest of the way down.

The Virgin/Alaska merger is a different animal all together. Career expectations is the same at both airlines. Status and category is the same at both airlines and only longevity is a player.

All of this is a moot point. Scott Kirby has said many times that UAL will not be buying or merging with JetBlue. I donít doubt that JB will merge with someone but it wonít be UAL.

ShyGuy
10-05-2018, 06:53 AM
"Career expectations" is strictly a function of narrowbody versus widebody flying. It has nothing to do with who upgrades quicker or bases etc. The only factual statement about career expectations for United pilots is they have the ability/access to widebody aircraft and jetBlue does not, so that's where that comes in.

BunkerF16
10-05-2018, 07:07 AM
Fortunately ALPA has a different opinion than you do. This is what is taken into account during an ALPA merger. Career expectations, longevity, and status and category in no particular order and with no particular weight. Career expectations is part of it. The new hires I fly with have better career expectations than a JetBlue Airbus Capt.

All of you are correct, the JetBlue seniority list won’t be stapled to the bottom of United’s but it will not reflect a relative seniority integration. Relative seniority is not part of ALPA’s merger policy. The most senior JB Capt is a 2000 hire? A United 2000 hire is a 777/787 FO or a A320/737 Capt. So a UAL 2000 hire has more or the same longevity as most senior JB Capts, has better career expectations and is in the same or better status and class.

So where do your most senior Capts start getting slotted in? Remember we have 5year Capts now with better career expectations and the same status and category. They only lag in the longevity..... My guess is junior to the UAL 2000 hires and mixed in the rest of the way down.

The Virgin/Alaska merger is a different animal all together. Career expectations is the same at both airlines. Status and category is the same at both airlines and only longevity is a player.

All of this is a moot point. Scott Kirby has said many times that UAL will not be buying or merging with JetBlue. I don’t doubt that JB will merge with someone but it won’t be UAL.


You really don't know how this process works.

To oversimplify:

Category/Class
Longevity

Those are the two overwhelming (if not only) things that will matter in an SLI..especially with an ALPA-ALPA merger.

If a UA-JB merger would happen, there would be long drawn out d1ck measuring contests between the 2 sides, but ultimately the arbitrators will use the above 2 to decide how to integrate.

There'd be a fence of the WBs (and probably 75s) CA positions for a few years (5-10?) and a percentage benefit given to the UA guys who have been there forever (30-40%) additive.

It would be a relative seniority integration starting at the 320(1)s/73s with the longevity percentage added for the UA pilots.

benzoate
10-05-2018, 07:10 AM
Fortunately ALPA has a different opinion than you do. This is what is taken into account during an ALPA merger. Career expectations, longevity, and status and category in no particular order and with no particular weight. Career expectations is part of it. The new hires I fly with have better career expectations than a JetBlue Airbus Capt.

All of you are correct, the JetBlue seniority list wonít be stapled to the bottom of Unitedís but it will not reflect a relative seniority integration. Relative seniority is not part of ALPAís merger policy. The most senior JB Capt is a 2000 hire? A United 2000 hire is a 777/787 FO or a A320/737 Capt. So a UAL 2000 hire has more or the same longevity as most senior JB Capts, has better career expectations and is in the same or better status and class.

So where do your most senior Capts start getting slotted in? Remember we have 5year Capts now with better career expectations and the same status and category. They only lag in the longevity..... My guess is junior to the UAL 2000 hires and mixed in the rest of the way down.

The Virgin/Alaska merger is a different animal all together. Career expectations is the same at both airlines. Status and category is the same at both airlines and only longevity is a player.

All of this is a moot point. Scott Kirby has said many times that UAL will not be buying or merging with JetBlue. I donít doubt that JB will merge with someone but it wonít be UAL.

Two comments you made clearly indicate your level of knowledge in the discussion.

First, letís deal with the obvious. An aritrator will decide seniority integration and the ONLY scenario that is certain is there wonít be a staple.
Second, the fact that you quote CEO stating he/she wonít do something clearly indicates a specific level of knowledge/experience about the industry.

CaptCoolHand
10-05-2018, 07:25 AM
Can we save the our group is gonna best your group SLI arguements for when.... there’s actually a reason?

But yes 50% of the time organic growth happens every time!
But 100%of the time you’re not selling or buying... until you do.

This whole last two pages is stupid.

let me bite, no Lear, jb Pilots will be bumping most of your 787 captains down to guppie puppies. We bring way more to the table than UAL has. Maybe we can even get a whole scab crew together! For a TATL tracks party.

Learjet driver
10-05-2018, 07:26 AM
You really don't know how this process works.

To oversimplify:

Category/Class
Longevity

Those are the two overwhelming (if not only) things that will matter in an SLI..especially with an ALPA-ALPA merger.

If a UA-JB merger would happen, there would be long drawn out d1ck measuring contests between the 2 sides, but ultimately the arbitrators will use the above 2 to decide how to integrate.

There'd be a fence of the WBs (and probably 75s) CA positions for a few years (5-10?) and a percentage benefit given to the UA guys who have been there forever (30-40%) additive.

It would be a relative seniority integration starting at the 320(1)s/73s with the longevity percentage added for the UA pilots.

I am familiar with how the process works. We have been through it in the last few years. I highly doubt career expectations will not be factored into an SLI with a much smaller airline that only flies narrow body airplanes.

nuball5
10-05-2018, 07:38 AM
Fortunately ALPA has a different opinion than you do. This is what is taken into account during an ALPA merger. Career expectations, longevity, and status and category in no particular order and with no particular weight. Career expectations is part of it. The new hires I fly with have better career expectations than a JetBlue Airbus Capt.

All of you are correct, the JetBlue seniority list wonít be stapled to the bottom of Unitedís but it will not reflect a relative seniority integration. Relative seniority is not part of ALPAís merger policy. The most senior JB Capt is a 2000 hire? A United 2000 hire is a 777/787 FO or a A320/737 Capt. So a UAL 2000 hire has more or the same longevity as most senior JB Capts, has better career expectations and is in the same or better status and class.

So where do your most senior Capts start getting slotted in? Remember we have 5year Capts now with better career expectations and the same status and category. They only lag in the longevity..... My guess is junior to the UAL 2000 hires and mixed in the rest of the way down.

The Virgin/Alaska merger is a different animal all together. Career expectations is the same at both airlines. Status and category is the same at both airlines and only longevity is a player.

All of this is a moot point. Scott Kirby has said many times that UAL will not be buying or merging with JetBlue. I donít doubt that JB will merge with someone but it wonít be UAL.


That's fine, I don't think a merger will happen either. I guess I'll keep seeing about a dozen UAL commuters that live in the Boston area on every EWR flight. Fighting for the jumpseat with a 3 hour EDCT...career expectations and all.

Learjet driver
10-05-2018, 07:43 AM
That's fine, I don't think a merger will happen either. I guess I'll keep seeing about a dozen UAL commuters that live in the Boston area on every EWR flight. Fighting for the jumpseat with a 3 hour EDCT...career expectations and all.

I hear ya! That commute must suck. I wonder why those UAL pilots donít apply to JB. Funny thing is, I seem to be flying or running into more and more pilots coming to United from JB.

nuball5
10-05-2018, 07:49 AM
I hear ya! That commute must suck. I wonder why those UAL pilots donít apply to JB. Funny thing is, I seem to be flying or running into more and more pilots coming to United from JB.

I'm glad everyone has a choice these days. It hasn't always been like that. You obviously have something against Jetblue...why I have no idea. I'm glad things are going well over at United now.

SUX4U
10-05-2018, 08:20 AM
[QUOTE=BunkerF16;2686374]
There'd be a fence of the WBs (and probably 75s) CA positions for a few years (5-10?) and a percentage benefit given to the UA guys who have been there forever (30-40%) additive./QUOTE]

5-10 year fence? Um we had 747 and 787 fenced for 5 years. Each paid the same rate. What makes you think JB Pilots with a top out of $250 or so an hour NB aircraft would only wait 5-10 years before a fence dropped on a $330 an hour WB aircraft?

I think everyone likes to act like they know what they are talking about with integrations. They use some past seniority awards like NW/DL, AA/US, UA/CO and think they have all the answers. Those mergers all had pilot groups with similar paying NB up to WB planes. That I would imagine was the easy part for an arbitrator to create a list and grant fences of 5 or so years. I find it hard to believe a merge with UA or any of the other big 3 with JB would look like any of the previous legacy airline seniority integrations. But just like the rest of you, I have no idea what Iím actually talking about. More food for thought for the absurd discussion going on here.

Bluedriver
10-05-2018, 08:38 AM
[QUOTE=BunkerF16;2686374]
There'd be a fence of the WBs (and probably 75s) CA positions for a few years (5-10?) and a percentage benefit given to the UA guys who have been there forever (30-40%) additive./QUOTE]

5-10 year fence? Um we had 747 and 787 fenced for 5 years. Each paid the same rate. What makes you think JB Pilots with a top out of $250 or so an hour NB aircraft would only wait 5-10 years before a fence dropped on a $330 an hour WB aircraft?

I think everyone likes to act like they know what they are talking about with integrations. They use some past seniority awards like NW/DL, AA/US, UA/CO and think they have all the answers. Those mergers all had pilot groups with similar paying NB up to WB planes. That I would imagine was the easy part for an arbitrator to create a list and grant fences of 5 or so years. I find it hard to believe a merge with UA or any of the other big 3 with JB would look like any of the previous legacy airline seniority integrations. But just like the rest of you, I have no idea what Iím actually talking about. More food for thought for the absurd discussion going on here.

An absurd discussion brought to us all by one of your fellow United pilots.

hilltopflyer
10-05-2018, 09:05 AM
I hear ya! That commute must suck. I wonder why those UAL pilots donít apply to JB. Funny thing is, I seem to be flying or running into more and more pilots coming to United from JB.

What I find is funny how you keep coming over here telling us how itís going to be on a hypothetical merger that isnít going to happen. So even though it isnít happening you still want to tell us how it will turn out when it does...

BunkerF16
10-05-2018, 09:14 AM
I am familiar with how the process works. We have been through it in the last few years. I highly doubt career expectations will not be factored into an SLI with a much smaller airline that only flies narrow body airplanes.


You can doubt it all you want. Doesn't make it true.

pilotpayne
10-05-2018, 09:28 AM
Fortunately ALPA has a different opinion than you do. This is what is taken into account during an ALPA merger. Career expectations, longevity, and status and category in no particular order and with no particular weight. Career expectations is part of it. The new hires I fly with have better career expectations than a JetBlue Airbus Capt.

All of you are correct, the JetBlue seniority list wonít be stapled to the bottom of Unitedís but it will not reflect a relative seniority integration. Relative seniority is not part of ALPAís merger policy. The most senior JB Capt is a 2000 hire? A United 2000 hire is a 777/787 FO or a A320/737 Capt. So a UAL 2000 hire has more or the same longevity as most senior JB Capts, has better career expectations and is in the same or better status and class.

So where do your most senior Capts start getting slotted in? Remember we have 5year Capts now with better career expectations and the same status and category. They only lag in the longevity..... My guess is junior to the UAL 2000 hires and mixed in the rest of the way down.

The Virgin/Alaska merger is a different animal all together. Career expectations is the same at both airlines. Status and category is the same at both airlines and only longevity is a player.

All of this is a moot point. Scott Kirby has said many times that UAL will not be buying or merging with JetBlue. I donít doubt that JB will merge with someone but it wonít be UAL.

And so why are you here again?

pilotpayne
10-05-2018, 09:36 AM
I hear ya! That commute must suck. I wonder why those UAL pilots donít apply to JB. Funny thing is, I seem to be flying or running into more and more pilots coming to United from JB.

Oh good god grow up. Do we need to go through airline history and your furloughs when United pilots were all to happy to fly here, and wait what pensions, ok and those RJs flying around United passengers.

You came over here with a false premise that we want our guys slotted in with wide body skippers. Who said anything like that? Than you proceed to argue a point that nobody made and how you donít think it will turn out well for us but wait we arenít going to merge anyway but if we did and we arenít it wouldnít be good.

Throw in some hits about us being a small airline with only narrow body aircraft our poor career expectations and we would be lucky to merge with you and you have completed course 101 on how to be a jerk.

Go back to the United forum.

aldonite7667
10-05-2018, 01:07 PM
I hear ya! That commute must suck. I wonder why those UAL pilots donít apply to JB. Funny thing is, I seem to be flying or running into more and more pilots coming to United from JB.

Clown. Not everyone wants to work at United. Too many Nozzles.

SUX4U
10-05-2018, 02:11 PM
[QUOTE=SUX4U;2686432]

An absurd discussion brought to us all by one of your fellow United pilots.

Care to discuss whatís so absurd with my observations from previous mergers that consisted of similar aircraft size and pay rates? Please note I even made the point that I have no idea what Iím talking about. But disregard that absurd discussion of mine. Lets get back to you guys getting bought out and stapled.

Bluedriver
10-05-2018, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Bluedriver;2686441]

Care to discuss whatís so absurd with my observations from previous mergers that consisted of similar aircraft size and pay rates? Please note I even made the point that I have no idea what Iím talking about. But disregard that absurd discussion of mine. Lets get back to you guys getting bought out and stapled.

I was referring to LearJet. We weren't discussing seniority integration here. He came uninvited and began discussing how bad we'd get screwed in an integration. Now you're here as well. Unless a merger is announced, we're not interested in any outside opinions.

Thank you.

pilotpayne
10-05-2018, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=SUX4U;2686647]

I was referring to LearJet. We weren't discussing seniority integration here. He came uninvited and began discussing how bad we'd get screwed in an integration. Now you're here as well. Unless a merger is announced, we're not interested in any outside opinions.

Thank you.


Exactly

I love the it wonít happen it canít happen nobody knows what would happen but let me tell you how we will screw you guys. Love it.

Why wast time in a narrow body airline forum with guys that have low career expectations?


But actually we are all missing the real question.


What type of headset does UA give their transcon business/ first class pax because that is the real key :)