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View Full Version : Breaking Training Contract Help


BtownPilot
07-26-2018, 08:36 PM
I am going to break my contract with my 135. Its a realllly big amount. Am I screwed or is there actually always a way to get out? One reason I am, originally it was suppose to be half the time even as they advertised on their job posting on their website but when I already turned down other positions and moved for the job, boom double the time... Any good attorney recommendations? hopefully I can find one that has never had a client pay out.

Thanks!


TiredSoul
07-26-2018, 08:50 PM
Couple of questions:
Why do you want to break it?
Better opportunities?
This company not your Ďthingí for whatever reason?
Whatís so bad about sticking it out?
Some type ratings are really expensive so what kind of money are we talking about?
Donít fall into the trap of ending up paying your lawyer the same amount.
Make sure you want to burn this bridge as most wont hesitate to call you a bad name when your next employer calls them.
You may just have to man up and sit it out.

LRSRanger
07-26-2018, 09:20 PM
When I flew for a large freight company I knew they wouldnít come after me. They paid me so ********* they knew I was too broke to pay up.


TiredSoul
07-26-2018, 10:20 PM
Iím thinking if that company is based in Florida it may not be enforcible but they may refer it to a collection agency and that could ruin an otherwise perfectly nice day.

BtownPilot
07-27-2018, 02:03 AM
Couple of questions:
Why do you want to break it?
Better opportunities?
This company not your Ďthingí for whatever reason?
Whatís so bad about sticking it out?
Some type ratings are really expensive so what kind of money are we talking about?
Donít fall into the trap of ending up paying your lawyer the same amount.
Make sure you want to burn this bridge as most wont hesitate to call you a bad name when your next employer calls them.
You may just have to man up and sit it out.

Ill send you a private message with the info as to stay anonymous etc..

BtownPilot
07-27-2018, 02:09 AM
When I flew for a large freight company I knew they wouldnít come after me. They paid me so ********* they knew I was too broke to pay up.

they would just make a payment plan. This contract is $50K+

JohnBurke
07-27-2018, 07:08 AM
I am going to break my contract with my 135. Its a realllly big amount. Am I screwed or is there actually always a way to get out? One reason I am, originally it was suppose to be half the time even as they advertised on their job posting on their website but when I already turned down other positions and moved for the job, boom double the time... Any good attorney recommendations? hopefully I can find one that has never had a client pay out.

Thanks!

Is English your second language?

You signed a contract, agreeing to pay for your training or repay the training costs in the event that you failed to honor your commitment to the company, and now you want to dishonor that commitment, correct?

Did you get something in return for this commitment, such as a type rating?

Boom?

What was supposed to be "half the time?" The training period, or the duration of the commitment to the employer? If your training took longer than anticipated, so be it. If you committed to a time period and have fulfilled that time period (a year is customary, but some agreements extend as long as three--and the Chinese routinely use commitments out to 99 years), then you've fulfilled your contract. Are you trying to say that the company is keeping you longer than the term of the contract? It sounds more like you're attempting to say that you think the training took too long, and you want to go somewhere else without fulfilling your contract.

Do you understand that the reason that employers have these contracts is dishonest pilots who take the training and run?

If you are in a situation in which the employer has not met the terms of the contract, or is operating dangerously or illegally, you may have standing to leave prior to fulfilling your end of the bargain.

Apparently you thought it work signing the document to get what you wanted. What has changed?

galaxy flyer
07-27-2018, 07:32 AM
What’s your reputation worth? That’s what your selling here. Pay the bill and move on or ride it out.

GF

rickair7777
07-27-2018, 08:01 AM
Whatís your reputation worth? Thatís what your selling here. Pay the bill and move on or ride it out.

GF

Yeah, a bad reference from a previous employer, bad credit, or a lawsuit filed against you are not indicators that the best employers like to see. If you get sued, that is a public record FOREVER, and there's nothing to keep a potential employer from accessing and considering that info (regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit).

BtownPilot
07-27-2018, 08:20 AM
Is English your second language?

You signed a contract, agreeing to pay for your training or repay the training costs in the event that you failed to honor your commitment to the company, and now you want to dishonor that commitment, correct?

Did you get something in return for this commitment, such as a type rating?

Boom?

What was supposed to be "half the time?" The training period, or the duration of the commitment to the employer? If your training took longer than anticipated, so be it. If you committed to a time period and have fulfilled that time period (a year is customary, but some agreements extend as long as three--and the Chinese routinely use commitments out to 99 years), then you've fulfilled your contract. Are you trying to say that the company is keeping you longer than the term of the contract? It sounds more like you're attempting to say that you think the training took too long, and you want to go somewhere else without fulfilling your contract.

Do you understand that the reason that employers have these contracts is dishonest pilots who take the training and run?

If you are in a situation in which the employer has not met the terms of the contract, or is operating dangerously or illegally, you may have standing to leave prior to fulfilling your end of the bargain.

Apparently you thought it work signing the document to get what you wanted. What has changed?

It was suppose to be 18 months as their post said. after turning down 4 other jobs and spending the money to move for the job, they slapped a 2.5 year contract. I had no choice but to sign because I would be out of a job, and spent the money saved for the move. training was fast, was a type rating and I got off IOE 2nd trip. They also guaranteed at 1500 for upgrade which didn't happen. thats why I do not want to stay for those reasons. Also the hires just before me had a 20-25k contract they gave me a 53K contract. Last day of contract balance - 25K and first page of contracts states the employee balance is due on last day of contract' which never happens but they could potentially still request that.

I am at 1 year now. Currently with offers to Regionals.

JohnBurke
07-27-2018, 09:05 AM
It was suppose to be 18 months as their post said. after turning down 4 other jobs and spending the money to move for the job, they slapped a 2.5 year contract. I had no choice but to sign because I would be out of a job, and spent the money saved for the move. training was fast, was a type rating and I got off IOE 2nd trip. They also guaranteed at 1500 for upgrade which didn't happen. thats why I do not want to stay for those reasons. Also the hires just before me had a 20-25k contract they gave me a 53K contract. Last day of contract balance - 25K and first page of contracts states the employee balance is due on last day of contract' which never happens but they could potentially still request that.

I am at 1 year now. Currently with offers to Regionals.

Your basis for breaking the contract is that it wasn't what the advertisement said?

What the ad said is irrelevant. What you signed is relevant. Very, very relevant. It's a legal document and you signed it.

What the new-hires before you had for a contract is irrelevant. They signed it. Not you. What you signed is relevant. Very, very relevant. It's a legal document, and you signed it.

You're asking legal questions and talking very generally. When you write that "they also guaranteed at 1500 hours for upgrade," what do you mean?

You really think that you should be automatically upgraded, regardless of need, your skill or ability or aptitude for the position? Does your contract guarantee in writing that at 1,500 hours, come hell or high water, no matter what may happen or no matter the company needs or your skill, proficiency, ability, or fitness for the job, you'll be upgraded, without exception? If so, that's some guarantee.

Does the contract say that you'll be eligible for upgrade after 1,500 hours?

Did you know about the contract before you quit your job, pulled up stakes, and moved? Would it not have been a wise idea to review the contract BEFORE making a commitment of that magnitude?

You didn't like the contract, but you signed it. You got what you wanted. You got your type rating (which has value and a cost attached) and you don't want to give the service to which you agreed. Your position is that you haven't been upgraded and that an advertisement indicated you'd have a shorter contract, neither of which are particularly relevant to the issue of you having signed the contract.

You're asking the legalities here, so be specific.
What does the contract spell out for upgrade?
What are the terms of the contract?
Is the contract pro-rated?
Does the contract stipulate separation conditions? Under what conditions can you separate? What conditions can the company cause you to separate, and what does the contract stipulate for each?

It's very hard to understand what you're attempting to say...but it sounds like you suggested that after the completion of your contract, you're expected to pay out 25,000. I find that very difficult to believe, which suggests that either you've being too vague and imprecise in your description, or you really don't know what the terms of the contract are.

Have you approached the company about release from your contract?

Excargodog
07-27-2018, 01:05 PM
It was suppose to be 18 months as their post said. after turning down 4 other jobs and spending the money to move for the job, they slapped a 2.5 year contract. I had no choice but to sign because I would be out of a job,...

Yes. You DID have a choice. You could have sued THEM for breach of contract, but you CHOSE to accept the contract revision.

Look, they took advantage of your naÔvetť, not getting what you believe to have been the original offer signed before you made the move, and that may be reprehensible, but YOU are going to be the one losing big time if they tell future employers you reneged on a contract that you signed.

Unless there is a safety issue involved, either pay off your contract or serve your contractual obligation. Either way, learn from this.

galaxy flyer
07-27-2018, 02:19 PM
I signed one for two years at my last position, prorated by the year. I kinda laughed at it, thinking I could probably get a new employer to buy it out or the new salary would pay it. I didn’t plan on leaving anyway and I didn’t. Yes, you might get a new employer to buy it out IF they get the benefit, i.e. they need a typed pilot.

Years later, now Chief Pilot, I had a Pilot who signed one for a Global TR. After a year, he wanted to leave, which I understood considering all the factors. Now, about that contract. I pushed tearing it up with the Boss, who while sympathetic, was insisting on payment. I spoke with the new employer and asked for them to pay it. After all, they wanted a typed and experienced pilot and would be paying about half the cost of buying one. No dice there, they weren’t the sharpest managers around, either. I told my guy, here’s a payment deal, sign over the amount owed out of your first year’s bonus and done. Also, in my humblest opinion, you’re making a mistake from what I can see. Deal done, payment made, he can’t stand the job and leaves.

Be careful what what you wish for, you might get it.

GF

BTW: nobody, anywhere is guaranteed an upgrade to PIC—you earn it with ability and professional skills. One of which is integrity.

TiredSoul
07-27-2018, 02:56 PM
True story time:

Once upon a time in a galaxy far and far away I flew with a captain who applied and applied and applied across the universe but rarely got an interview and never got hired.
Rumor was this pilot was radioactive.
So I googled the name......:
Top hit was a Facebook page of the individual and second hit was

ďCaptain Solo vs DeathStar AirlinesĒ......and the lawsuit was lost.

Any HR department across the MilkyWay came across this info about 3 sec after receiving a resume.
This Captain will be stuck till the end of times flying a pirate ship for Scumbag Air.

I served my promised year and got into the escape capsule.
True story.

Times are good now, very good.
When famine comes back around again and airlines can go back to cherry picking this stuff will come back and haunt you.
Trust me Iíve seen it.

galaxy flyer
07-27-2018, 03:10 PM
You can probably get a job nowadays that would pay the bond to get a rated 135-current Pilot.

GF

JamesNoBrakes
07-27-2018, 08:10 PM
Well, you could add up all the time you were performing services for the company and on property and send them a bill for time you were working and not paid...

TiredSoul
07-27-2018, 08:48 PM
Without any corroborating evidence that would be hard to prove.

JohnBurke
07-28-2018, 08:30 AM
Yes. You DID have a choice. You could have sued THEM for breach of contract, but you CHOSE to accept the contract revision.


Not a chance. No contract existed to breach. If you're asserting that the advertisement represented a contract, or the invitation to move or job offer represented a verbal (or other) contract, you'd have a very hard time making that stick.

The only tangible contract is the one the original poster signed. Any other implied duty would be a legal battle that he'd be very unlikely to win.

BtownPilot
07-29-2018, 12:23 AM
I will try to negotiate paying for the type rating thatís for sure. Iím going to see what we can work out thatís the plan. But weíll see what they say. Hopefully they will work with me I also brought them multiple pilots to help them. Hopefully they take that into consideration. Yes it was my choice at the end of the day but had to sign in distress as I turned down multiple offers and spent money to come here thinking itís what they told me and they switched it all when I got here. I would have been couple thousands loss and no job if I didnít agree.

Iím not trying to be that guy that doesnít care and just wants to blow off a contract but what they did was wrong like a bait and switch and I did bring it up at first but they said ďwell thatís what it isĒ type answer.

No thereís not much proof except the posting on their website even 4 months after I was hired their new posting still kept saying 18 months but when people came, 2.5 years.

JohnBurke
07-29-2018, 06:36 AM
How long have you been working for this company?

HercDriver130
07-29-2018, 06:57 AM
Whatís your reputation worth? Thatís what your selling here. Pay the bill and move on or ride it out.

GF

^^^^^^ This is spot on

Flyhayes
07-29-2018, 09:23 PM
Actually there could be a case here. If the advertised terms were changed and the OP was stuck between a rock and a hard place, it could be argued that the contract was signed under duress. But there better be clear evidence of it, and/or verifiable evidence that others were given better deals.

TiredSoul
07-29-2018, 11:35 PM
Some lessons in life are free and some are not.
Life and learn.

JohnBurke
07-30-2018, 12:14 AM
Actually there could be a case here. If the advertised terms were changed and the OP was stuck between a rock and a hard place, it could be argued that the contract was signed under duress.

No, it really couldn't.

Varsity
07-31-2018, 05:36 PM
50k is a lot of scratch. What airplane was this? Global/G-machine?

rickair7777
08-01-2018, 07:52 AM
Actually there could be a case here. If the advertised terms were changed and the OP was stuck between a rock and a hard place, it could be argued that the contract was signed under duress. But there better be clear evidence of it, and/or verifiable evidence that others were given better deals.

The regionals which had training contracts had learned to have applicants sign the contract at the time of the job offer. They had found that making them sign the contract on day one of ground school constituted duress because the new-hire had already quit his old job and such contracts were then hard to enforce. This was a situation where everybody knew darn well that there was going to be a training contract and what the terms were, but it wouldn't hold up in court if the employer had no hard evidence to prove that the applicants knew before day one.

That was a loophole. In this case I think it might be legit.

I would say he has a case at least worth discussing with a lawyer if he has docs showing certain conditions were advertised, but more onerous conditions were applied after he had quit his old job.

If that can resolved with a phone call from a lawyer, all good. But again it might be hard on your future employment opportunities if you end up involved in a public record lawsuit. Gotta weigh cost vs. benefit on that...

JohnBurke
08-01-2018, 10:15 AM
What type of gun was it, I wonder, that they held to his head during that signing?

It must have been very scary.

Excargodog
08-01-2018, 11:17 AM
Not a chance. No contract existed to breach. If you're asserting that the advertisement represented a contract, or the invitation to move or job offer represented a verbal (or other) contract, you'd have a very hard time making that stick.

The only tangible contract is the one the original poster signed. Any other implied duty would be a legal battle that he'd be very unlikely to win.

I didn't say he was going to win. Just refuting his assertion that what he did was somehow justified by circumstances beyond his control. There were other options to signing that contract.

FliesInSoup
08-01-2018, 11:57 AM
A contract signed under duress is not enforceable.

If the Company wants to collect show them what was originally offered to you versus the revised contract they actually put in front of you after you had already quit your job, turned down other offers, relocated, etc, etc. Tell them you signed their revised contract under duress and that not only is it not enforceable but you are entitled to other damages as well - perhaps multiples of what they are asking. Tell them you would be reluctant but forced to pursue these options with your attorney if they wish to proceed.

In your correspondence, copy your hiring manager, HR and the Company's legal department and ask for a response in how they would like to proceed.

JohnBurke
08-01-2018, 03:38 PM
A contract signed under duress is not enforceable.

If the Company wants to collect show them what was originally offered to you versus the revised contract they actually put in front of you after you had already quit your job, turned down other offers, relocated, etc, etc. Tell them you signed their revised contract under duress and that not only is it not enforceable but you are entitled to other damages as well - perhaps multiples of what they are asking. Tell them you would be reluctant but forced to pursue these options with your attorney if they wish to proceed.

In your correspondence, copy your hiring manager, HR and the Company's legal department and ask for a response in how they would like to proceed.

He signed the contract.

Guess who has the burden of proof.

rickair7777
08-01-2018, 09:21 PM
What type of gun was it, I wonder, that they held to his head during that signing?

It must have been very scary.

Unemployment? Could be problematic if you have a family.

JohnBurke
08-01-2018, 10:40 PM
Unemployment? Could be problematic if you have a family.

Most of us who have been around for very long have been through a furlough, downsizing, closing, merger, yada, yada, and have done it with families. To suggest that one is forced into the job because of X is an excuse. He signed the contract to get what he wanted. He got it. Now he wants out.

I showed up at an operator for a job. No mention of a contract. I'd already separated from the other job. Moved to a new city. Ready to go. Day two the CEO entered the room, stack of paper in hand. Here's a 18 month contract, sign it or hit the bricks.

Bye-bye said I. Hold on a moment, said he. I don't do that.

I showed up at an interview for a company. No mention of paying for training. Not found. In between one of the interviews I caught wind of the scheme, so when they shuttled me into the interview room and the interviewer asked if I had any questions I said yes, indeed. I hear you're charging for training, with a bond. Yes, he admitted, we are, but it won't apply to you, given your experience. They had a cutoff point, and I wouldn't have been required to sign. Did I have a problem with that, I was asked. Why, yes?

Three of us walked out, caught the hotel shuttle to the airport, and left.

Homey don't play that, as the saying went, and homey went home (where one hangs one's hat. It's a mobile hat).

A few times over the years I've been told do this, sign that, agree to something, if you wish to keep your paycheck. At times it was with young ones, at times it was in a place where the employer might have thought he had me over a barrel. I've been known to say pound sand, take a hike, Sayonara, and a few other things, some less polite. I even had an employer hold me by the throat and slam me against a hangar wall when I was a 18 year old ag pilot...told me if I didn't agree I'd get a shotgun in my mouth. Unlike the original poster, I really did have the proverbial gun to the head, but unlike the original poster, I understand the concept of "no." It still works today.

If you want to call fear of saying "no" to be duress, by all means, glob onto that excuse, but it doesn't impress me, and you may have a hard time selling it to the judge.

TiredSoul
08-01-2018, 10:45 PM
Once I was asked to sign a one year contract after I returned from recurrent.
I said no thank you I served my (initial) year and Iím still here with every intention of staying.
They asked again after my upgrade training and I said no thank you thatís the cost of doing business.
My best advice is still to sit it out and take it as a learning moment.
You hear the sirens calling your name and you lay awake at night seeing seniority lists floating by no doubt.
Your reputation and your credit score will thank you.
Iím not saying they will but if you bail they have the option to send it to collection and collection agencies...well they couldnít care less is the polite way of saying it.

rickair7777
08-02-2018, 06:34 AM
Most of us who have been around for very long have been through a furlough, downsizing, closing, merger, yada, yada, and have done it with families. To suggest that one is forced into the job because of X is an excuse. He signed the contract to get what he wanted. He got it. Now he wants out.

I showed up at an operator for a job. No mention of a contract. I'd already separated from the other job. Moved to a new city. Ready to go. Day two the CEO entered the room, stack of paper in hand. Here's a 18 month contract, sign it or hit the bricks.

Bye-bye said I. Hold on a moment, said he. I don't do that.

I showed up at an interview for a company. No mention of paying for training. Not found. In between one of the interviews I caught wind of the scheme, so when they shuttled me into the interview room and the interviewer asked if I had any questions I said yes, indeed. I hear you're charging for training, with a bond. Yes, he admitted, we are, but it won't apply to you, given your experience. They had a cutoff point, and I wouldn't have been required to sign. Did I have a problem with that, I was asked. Why, yes?

Three of us walked out, caught the hotel shuttle to the airport, and left.

Homey don't play that, as the saying went, and homey went home (where one hangs one's hat. It's a mobile hat).

A few times over the years I've been told do this, sign that, agree to something, if you wish to keep your paycheck. At times it was with young ones, at times it was in a place where the employer might have thought he had me over a barrel. I've been known to say pound sand, take a hike, Sayonara, and a few other things, some less polite. I even had an employer hold me by the throat and slam me against a hangar wall when I was a 18 year old ag pilot...told me if I didn't agree I'd get a shotgun in my mouth. Unlike the original poster, I really did have the proverbial gun to the head, but unlike the original poster, I understand the concept of "no." It still works today.

If you want to call fear of saying "no" to be duress, by all means, glob onto that excuse, but it doesn't impress me, and you may have a hard time selling it to the judge.

You and I know that, I have about $500K in fairly liquid assets for that reason alone... enough to switch to another career, in no particular hurry. But maybe not everyone is in that position when they're fairly young.

TiredSoul
08-02-2018, 08:46 AM
You and I know that, I have about $500K in fairly liquid assets for that reason alone...

Dayuuum what course you on....
Ramsey 2.0?

galaxy flyer
08-02-2018, 10:47 AM
If you don’t have a substantial emergency fund in aviation, you’re a “dead man walking”, so to speak, I know a couple of EAL guys that spent like drunken sailors right up til the end, believing it could never happen. One hung himself and not he wasn’t the only one. I flew with several guys that were “just along for the ride; I don’t know of anything else to do, this is all I know”. Often, they were guys hired in the Sixties with a 150 hours and no other skills. I vowed never to put myself in that hole.

Secondly, if, as speculated, this is a Global type rating, dude, you can make $1500-$1800 per day after agency fees. Paid off in six months and have a back up plan.


GF

JohnBurke
08-02-2018, 11:40 AM
You and I know that, I have about $500K in fairly liquid assets for that reason alone... enough to switch to another career, in no particular hurry. But maybe not everyone is in that position when they're fairly young.

That must be nice.

I never did.

In fact I walked away from an employer over maintenance and other issues with a young wife, newborn, and two dogs, and zero in the bank, zero in the pocket, no food reserves, and a tank of gas. There were only two other ways it would have gone; his aircraft would have killed me, or I'd have killed him.

I still wonder what the food would have been like in Cell Block C.

rickair7777
08-03-2018, 08:38 AM
That must be nice.

I never did.

In fact I walked away from an employer over maintenance and other issues with a young wife, newborn, and two dogs, and zero in the bank, zero in the pocket, no food reserves, and a tank of gas. There were only two other ways it would have gone; his aircraft would have killed me, or I'd have killed him.

I still wonder what the food would have been like in Cell Block C.

Well yeah, if it's unsafe.

But it took me a while to save up the reserves... four jobs between the wife and I, for 20 years.

Excargodog
08-03-2018, 06:08 PM
Well yeah, if it's unsafe.

But it took me a while to save up the reserves... four jobs between the wife and I, for 20 years.


Save. The key word. But to some people, it's a word they can't comprehend.

Many years ago (pre 911) I knew a senior pilot for one of the majors. God alone knows what he was making as a 747 Captain flying mainly US to Japan. He had a big house on serious acreage, ALL the toys, boats (cruise and speed), bikes (dirt and street), two different aircraft (beech Debonair and Citabria), and several gun safes full of ordnance....

His airline was permitted to go on strike - and they did for all of two weeks before Northwest settled. He had to sell the Debonair and the Harley at a deep discount o raise the money to pay the mortgage and credit card bills.

Dude lived paycheck to paycheck and didn't save a dime, counting on his pension to see him through when the music finally stopped. That doesn't generally work well - it didn't for the Delta folks.

So I tell anyone that I fly with that asks...

Don't be that guy.

pugpilot
08-18-2018, 10:20 PM
I'd really like to know more about the operation. What the type rating was, and specifically - did both pilots require a type rating for the insurance or the ops specs of the operation.

The contract could be unenforceable for lack of consideration. (this also applies to promissory notes)

If the company/airline/operation requires (by their own choosing) that both pilots be trained to a certain standard...then the training is not for your benefit, but for the benefit of the company.

Call a lawyer that specializes in business contracts.

gollum
08-19-2018, 06:11 PM
Did you have an offer letter from the company with any details listed before you moved?

BtownPilot
09-01-2018, 02:59 PM
I'd really like to know more about the operation. What the type rating was, and specifically - did both pilots require a type rating for the insurance or the ops specs of the operation.

The contract could be unenforceable for lack of consideration. (this also applies to promissory notes)

If the company/airline/operation requires (by their own choosing) that both pilots be trained to a certain standard...then the training is not for your benefit, but for the benefit of the company.

Call a lawyer that specializes in business contracts.



Few questions that people asked, NO it is not a jet type, Turboprop type rating. also, some say its easy to say no and walk away but when you had 600 bucks in the bank and walking away was not an option otherwise I wouldn't have enough money to stay afloat until I found another job and had to travel back. So, it was a situation I couldn't say no at that point. I do have some records like their advertisement on their website for the contract being 18 months. Also when they put a new job posting 4 months after I got hired (When they said it changed) they still advertised 18 months. Also, when I upgraded to captain on a smaller aircraft (no type needed) about 5 months after is started, i kept flying that since they hired new guys on the bigger plane and I have not flown it in almost 5 months. The contract for the small plane is 12 months.

Yes I shouldn't have signed it and said no but when you spent all your money to get there and turned down other jobs because what they promised and said as well as used all resources to get there, I couldn't back-out because I would have to wait few weeks to find another job and wouldn't have the funds for that.IF they were upfront, I wouldn't have even came as I had other job offers including flying Leajets but came here because what they promised and what was advertised.

I did mention it to them when they gave me the contract and told them it shouldn't be like this and they didn't care. Typical bait and switch. Not to mention guy before me 1 month before had the regular 18 month contract and half the contract amount $ I had.

JohnBurke
09-01-2018, 04:15 PM
What the "other guy" had is irrelevant.

He didn't sign your contract. You did.

Whether it's a "jet" type rating is irrelevant.

You signed a contract. Whether 18 months or 2.5 years, did the contract not spell it out? Were you not aware of what you were signing?

I have walked away from jobs with zero in the bank. You could, too. You chose to sign the contract, you agreed to the commitment.

Your assertion now is that you were type rated in the airplane, but are not flying the airplane. Your contract was for the type rating, and did not specify that you were guaranteed to fly the airplane, correct?

Do what you agreed. If you agreed to work for a period of time, do that. If you can't do that, pay it out, and move on. Done.

Fookz92
09-07-2018, 09:48 PM
I will chime on here after reading this entire thread. Alot of good info.

I too am going through something similar as far as a training contract. Hired with the company a year ago I was told to sign a 12 month 14.5K training contract for x dollars a year. Yet no training was given. This would have never held up if I breached since nothing was spent on me. But I did so because I trusted the aircraft owner from doing previous business with him.

Was told in 6 months I would be considered for PIC type. (4th full type) I was given a slot and a class date. 1 week prior to class, they cancelled it on me because the airplane was "too busy" with trips. Fast forward 6 more months and I am standing in my hotel room at CAE in DFW with a new contract. 23k for 12 months of service pro rated, but nothing about the pay. I felt like something was fishy here but I signed it and sent it back in. (I was wrong here).

PIC typed now, making SIC pay with PIC duties. Pt 91 flying last year with 2 pilots and no schedule. This year we are 91/135 with still 2 pilots and no schedule. I will be home only 6 days this month of September!

Now I am being offered a job with six figures and im only 2 months into the current contract. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place with a bad feeling in your gut. Will the new guy pay the management company off? Maybe, who knows? Yes, I want to jump ship because I am a disgruntled employee.
But my integrity and reputation is everything to me because in this industry, It is about who you know. And aviation IS such a small world.

dera
09-08-2018, 06:03 PM
I will chime on here after reading this entire thread. Alot of good info.

I too am going through something similar as far as a training contract. Hired with the company a year ago I was told to sign a 12 month 14.5K training contract for x dollars a year. Yet no training was given. This would have never held up if I breached since nothing was spent on me. But I did so because I trusted the aircraft owner from doing previous business with him.

Was told in 6 months I would be considered for PIC type. (4th full type) I was given a slot and a class date. 1 week prior to class, they cancelled it on me because the airplane was "too busy" with trips. Fast forward 6 more months and I am standing in my hotel room at CAE in DFW with a new contract. 23k for 12 months of service pro rated, but nothing about the pay. I felt like something was fishy here but I signed it and sent it back in. (I was wrong here).

PIC typed now, making SIC pay with PIC duties. Pt 91 flying last year with 2 pilots and no schedule. This year we are 91/135 with still 2 pilots and no schedule. I will be home only 6 days this month of September!

Now I am being offered a job with six figures and im only 2 months into the current contract. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place with a bad feeling in your gut. Will the new guy pay the management company off? Maybe, who knows? Yes, I want to jump ship because I am a disgruntled employee.
But my integrity and reputation is everything to me because in this industry, It is about who you know. And aviation IS such a small world.

No training -> no consideration -> no contract.
Basic UCC/contract law stuff.

klondike
09-19-2018, 08:38 AM
Dear JohnBurke,

You sound like a real first class Dudley-do-Right.
My compliments to you.

K

JohnBurke
09-19-2018, 08:52 AM
PIC typed now, making SIC pay with PIC duties. Pt 91 flying last year with 2 pilots and no schedule. This year we are 91/135 with still 2 pilots and no schedule. I will be home only 6 days this month of September!

Now I am being offered a job with six figures and im only 2 months into the current contract. Talk about being between a rock and a hard place with a bad feeling in your gut. Will the new guy pay the management company off? Maybe, who knows? Yes, I want to jump ship because I am a disgruntled employee.
But my integrity and reputation is everything to me because in this industry, It is about who you know. And aviation IS such a small world.

Use that six figure salary to pay off the contract if you're bound, and if your new employer won't help you out, and move on; make it right by all counts.

I've had numerous occasions when I've been offered a fantastic job, but had committed to the then-current employer. The commitments were nothing more than a handshake in most cases; my word that I'd give them the time upon which we agreed. My word is good because I live by it.

When the job offer came in, I told the prospective employer, as I always do, "I appreciate the offer and hope you'll keep me in mind. I have promised this employer, and I won't do it to them, as I wouldn't do it to you." The prospective employer has always appreciated my position, and some of the job offers remained on the table, others went away.

On several occasions, I called up the former offer and asked if it was still available. Not only was it available, I was at work a few days later. Integrity counts.

tomgoodman
09-19-2018, 08:55 AM
Dear JohnBurke,

You sound like a real first class Dudley-do-Right.
My compliments to you.

K

Snidely, is that you? 🎩

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2qqg9QNK0B8

Stimpy the Kat
09-19-2018, 01:34 PM
" But my integrity and reputation is everything to me.."

I am sorry to say it...NO it is not.

Even in the depths of the "No Hiring" period and with no income...Many of us REFUSED to even entertain the IDEA of a Training Contract / Bond of any sort.

That Sir, is Integrity.

In the current Market, to submit to this, indicates naivete', youth, and general ignorance of the world ahead of oneself.

You further indicate that you KNEW you were doing something less than intelligent yet, did it anyway. (?)

Because, " You we're Told? "

HMMM ?

Here can be your moment of growth and acknowledgement:

> It was stupid.

> You know it.

> You own it.

> You honor your Contract.

> You grow Older and Wiser.


If you can handle the above...Good For You. As well as "Good Luck" with the rest of Life's Journey.

The Best Thing?

Hopefully, We ALL get to Live and Learn from our mistakes. No matter how old we are.

( Well, at least 40% of us do. )


STK

galaxy flyer
09-19-2018, 02:11 PM
Well, every pilot who flew for Uncle Sam signed a contract, so I wouldnít be so down on it. But, they got something in returnóa career. Signing a contract to fly a piston at a 135 operator is pretty much something for nothing.


GF

JohnBurke
09-19-2018, 10:21 PM
Signing a contract to fly a piston at a 135 operator is pretty much something for nothing.


GF

Not everyone had the silver spoon put in their mouth; for the pilot seeking the multi experience, agreeing to stay aboard for a period of time isn't such a bad thing, and it's not unreasonable for an employer to make the request. It's more expensive to ensure an inexperienced pilot, and the inexperienced pilot often takes more training, especially with a piston engine where improper use is more likely to cause damage.

The new employee gains experience and multi engine time. The employer would like to see a return on the investment. Employees who bail at the first sign of a shiny turbine mean that the training and insurance process starts over, increasing costs.

Someone paid for the military pilot's training, but it wasn't the military pilot, and I've met a lot of former military that still don't grasp the concept. In fact, I've worked for a number of veteran-owned operations that won't hire military pilots for that very reason; they've come aboard and taken the training and run, some hiring right out the door of flight safety without ever even coming home to give a day of service. So long as someone else is paying, they're happy to take the training and run.

It's because of employees to who take the training and run, that these contracts exist in the first place.

galaxy flyer
09-20-2018, 07:20 AM
Absolutely agree with you, John.. I see what youíre saying about the 135 multi time, too. Iíve seen too many guys grab the good deal and run. There was a guy next door to me at the United Skyport KHPN that got a GII job when that was the top of the heap. In school, two weeks in, he answered a blind ad in the WSJ with a resume showing his GII type. Oops, turned out to be his new employerís ad that hadnít run out yet. He got called out of class with a ticket home.

GF

JohnBurke
09-20-2018, 09:38 AM
Absolutely agree with you, John.. I see what youíre saying about the 135 multi time, too. Iíve seen too many guys grab the good deal and run. There was a guy next door to me at the United Skyport KHPN that got a GII job when that was the top of the heap. In school, two weeks in, he answered a blind ad in the WSJ with a resume showing his GII type. Oops, turned out to be his new employerís ad that hadnít run out yet. He got called out of class with a ticket home.

GF

Ouch.

Reminds me of the guy that logged time in numbers he saw on the ramp. One turned out to be an inspector's personal airplane. The same inspector giving him the check ride...

Fookz92
09-20-2018, 11:26 AM
Use that six figure salary to pay off the contract if you're bound, and if your new employer won't help you out, and move on; make it right by all counts.

I've had numerous occasions when I've been offered a fantastic job, but had committed to the then-current employer. The commitments were nothing more than a handshake in most cases; my word that I'd give them the time upon which we agreed. My word is good because I live by it.

When the job offer came in, I told the prospective employer, as I always do, "I appreciate the offer and hope you'll keep me in mind. I have promised this employer, and I won't do it to them, as I wouldn't do it to you." The prospective employer has always appreciated my position, and some of the job offers remained on the table, others went away.

On several occasions, I called up the former offer and asked if it was still available. Not only was it available, I was at work a few days later. Integrity counts.

Yes, exactly. And that is why I will NOT jump ship and run it up my old company's a$$. Someone has to say for the bill in the end. I have been getting phone calls for job offers left and right but I made the commitment and I am sticking to it. Integrity is everything. Hindsight is 20/20.

Fookz92
09-20-2018, 11:30 AM
" But my integrity and reputation is everything to me.."

I am sorry to say it...NO it is not.

Even in the depths of the "No Hiring" period and with no income...Many of us REFUSED to even entertain the IDEA of a Training Contract / Bond of any sort.

That Sir, is Integrity.

In the current Market, to submit to this, indicates naivete', youth, and general ignorance of the world ahead of oneself.

You further indicate that you KNEW you were doing something less than intelligent yet, did it anyway. (?)

Because, " You we're Told? "

HMMM ?

Here can be your moment of growth and acknowledgement:

> It was stupid.

> You know it.

> You own it.

> You honor your Contract.

> You grow Older and Wiser.


If you can handle the above...Good For You. As well as "Good Luck" with the rest of Life's Journey.

The Best Thing?

Hopefully, We ALL get to Live and Learn from our mistakes. No matter how old we are.

( Well, at least 40% of us do. )


STK

Hindsight is 20/20. I may be disgruntled and wanting to leave, but im not. Never said I was in my other post either. A commitment was made and I am sticking to it.

Stimpy the Kat
09-21-2018, 09:36 AM
Good for you then.

My apologies if I missed that point and came across to strong...

STK

SaltyDog
09-24-2018, 06:44 PM
Not everyone had the silver spoon put in their mouth; for the pilot seeking the multi experience, agreeing to stay aboard for a period of time isn't such a bad thing, and it's not unreasonable for an employer to make the request. It's more expensive to ensure an inexperienced pilot, and the inexperienced pilot often takes more training, especially with a piston engine where improper use is more likely to cause damage.

The new employee gains experience and multi engine time. The employer would like to see a return on the investment. Employees who bail at the first sign of a shiny turbine mean that the training and insurance process starts over, increasing costs.

Someone paid for the military pilot's training, but it wasn't the military pilot, and I've met a lot of former military that still don't grasp the concept. In fact, I've worked for a number of veteran-owned operations that won't hire military pilots for that very reason; they've come aboard and taken the training and run, some hiring right out the door of flight safety without ever even coming home to give a day of service. So long as someone else is paying, they're happy to take the training and run.

It's because of employees to who take the training and run, that these contracts exist in the first place.
Not unreasonable, Business's do it ultimately when the market allows them to charge you for the job. Know your experienced enough to know this business reality. Heard it in 1993 when no pilots needed. Airline president "I do it because I can" was the reason for Pay for training. Want a job? Become an indentured servant for awhile.
Military :
I spent 30 years serving around the world giving my fellow citizens a return on their pilot training investment. 10 years of active duty military for pilot training is not a cut and run proposition. Yes, I did pay for it in part with my service obligations and I pay and paid taxes that helped pay for my training. Appears military pilots are low brow folks in your world. Personally, would hire mil types if I had a business. Know what it takes to keep them around even with lower pay than market. No silver spoon here. Earned like most
Cheers

JohnBurke
09-24-2018, 06:58 PM
Appears military pilots are low brow folks in your world. Personally, would hire mil types if I had a business. Know what it takes to keep them around even with lower pay than market. No silver spoon here. Earned like most
Cheers

Speak for yourself, not for me.

You don't have a business. What you would do is really irrelevant. What you would do would need to be tempered by what actually happens to you and your business. Perhaps if you saw eight or ten pilots show up, take your 20-40,000 dollar training and never show up for work, you might change your tune. Especially given that the cost of replacing a pilot is more than just the training dollars.

Everybody earns their keep. Military aviators sometimes feel like they've paid their dues, and are therefore somehow different, almost as if they've earned it more than others; it's arrogant. Everybody else earned it, just didn't get paid as much to do it, or get the perks. Or get someone else to pay for it.

The employers I mentioned, the ones who were veterans themselves, elected not to hire any more veterans precisely because they had most of their problems from military flyers. Not my decision. Not my observation. Not my policy. Theirs. I work for one gentleman who has multiple Purple Hearts, a large flag in his hangar as well as service flags and who is as proud as any of the service he gave. His personal experience with military aviators is what has lead him to hire no more. He's fed up. If I'd had the losses he's had due to the same thing, I'd probably feel the same way. Another career military pilot I flew for...he flat-out refused to hire another military aviator, after the eighth one in a row failed to return from FSI. He bought them each a type rating, they all knew that he asked for a year in return, and they all knew the wage. They took jobs out the door; jobs that required them to hold a type, so they got this owner to buy the type then jumped ship and went elsewhere. It is what it is, but that level of dishonor is what leads to training contracts and in leaner times, pay to play.

I've spent my fair share of time in combat zones as well as third world countries as well as demanding, high intensity flight environments. It means nothing. It's irrelevant, really, especially to this thread.

If a pilot makes a commitment, I don't care where he came from or what his background it or how special he thinks he is, or how much that shiny jet syndrome is gnawing at his gut trying to pry him away. It's not really that complicated: honor the damn commitment. Where integrity has fallen to a rubble of dishonesty, training contracts and the like grow in it's wake. If one has hitched one's wagon to such a contract, or made a commitment, the wrong question is how to get out of it.

If you can't do the time, don't sign the line, as a bad poet might say.

SaltyDog
09-24-2018, 07:17 PM
...
If a pilot makes a commitment, I don't care where he came from or what his background it or how special he thinks he is, or how much that shiny jet syndrome is gnawing at his gut trying to pry him away. It's not really that complicated: honor the damn commitment. Where integrity has fallen to a rubble of dishonesty, training contracts and the like grow in it's wake. If one has hitched one's wagon to such a contract, or made a commitment, the wrong question is how to get out of it.

If you can't do the time, don't sign the line, as a bad poet might say.
We agree on this. You brought up the military pilot as examples

kevair464
09-25-2018, 07:08 AM
Some companies require a re-current contract as well.

An example:

Company A required a 1 year initial type pro-rated contract on new hires.

Company A then requires a 6 month contract be signed for each re-current class.

For PICs, this means you have two very small windows per year to seek new employment without being on the hook for $$$.

I can see Initial type contracts as these are pricey and the true "value" to the pilot. But re-current contracts? Isn't that just part of the price of doing business?

How does one get a new job without incurring costs if you are literally under contract forever? Unless of course you refuse to do currency training

Vital Signs
09-26-2018, 01:45 PM
Some companies require a re-current contract as well.

An example:

Company A required a 1 year initial type pro-rated contract on new hires.

Company A then requires a 6 month contract be signed for each re-current class.

For PICs, this means you have two very small windows per year to seek new employment without being on the hook for $$$.

I can see Initial type contracts as these are pricey and the true "value" to the pilot. But re-current contracts? Isn't that just part of the price of doing business?

How does one get a new job without incurring costs if you are literally under contract forever? Unless of course you refuse to do currency training

Some recurrents are 5,000 some are 50,000 and this could be a factor but also Some operators are not willing to gamble especially if they know they are paying less than industry standard.
If it is a desirable sought after place to work then there will not be a need for a contract.
But, a person only has his word and should stand behind it.

Bons
09-29-2018, 06:20 PM
I am going to break my contract with my 135. Its a realllly big amount. Am I screwed or is there actually always a way to get out? One reason I am, originally it was suppose to be half the time even as they advertised on their job posting on their website but when I already turned down other positions and moved for the job, boom double the time... Any good attorney recommendations? hopefully I can find one that has never had a client pay out.

Thanks!

I left my previous scumbag operator and I had a fairly large contract. I found greener pastures with another operator that flew the same type that I really wanted to work for. I was able to negotiate with the new operator a initial hiring bonus of about 75% what my previous operators contract was because I already had the type. I wasn't sure if scumbag op would pursue the contract until I was called by a collection agency soon after I left. I took my fresh hiring bonus and some other funds I could scrape together and paid off my contract (in-full) to collection agency free and clear with no effect to my credit rating. BEFORE I considered any of the above I talked to a family member who is actually a contract attorney and told me even if I win the case, an out of state lawyer and fees could be well beyond what the original contract $ was for. Short story=prepare to pay contract in full or sit it out until expiration. I thank myself everyday for busting my previous contract. Has saved my life and my certificate!! Of course your results may vary. Good luck!

TiredSoul
09-29-2018, 08:37 PM
Ouch.

Reminds me of the guy that logged time in numbers he saw on the ramp. One turned out to be an inspector's personal airplane. The same inspector giving him the check ride...

Now that story is BS and has been making the rounds for 30+ years.

JohnBurke
09-30-2018, 01:58 AM
Now that story is BS and has been making the rounds for 30+ years.

It's been around in a lot of different forms for a lot longer than that, but it's not BS.

It was actually relayed to me in person by an inspector during a check ride, regarding his own personal airplane. I'm sure it's not the only time it's happened.

TiredSoul
09-30-2018, 09:10 AM
It's been around in a lot of different forms for a lot longer than that, but it's not BS.

It was actually relayed to me in person by an inspector during a check ride, regarding his own personal airplane. I'm sure it's not the only time it's happened.

I was told the same story by an 80-year old FAA POI while he was trying to find a reason to fail me on a asst. Chief 141 ride.
Itís been making the rounds.
Does t really matter if itís true or not, it just signals a certain attitude.

tomgoodman
09-30-2018, 10:29 AM
Nobody could fool Inspector Badflaps with phony logbook entries. He knew all of the tail numbers by heart, because they were single digits. 😁

galaxy flyer
09-30-2018, 12:31 PM
Because the Wrights only built a couple!

rickair7777
10-01-2018, 06:15 AM
Now that story is BS and has been making the rounds for 30+ years.

But it's happened more than once, and there are only a relative handful of GA airplanes in smaller communities so I'm sure somebody has been caught.

rickair7777
10-01-2018, 06:18 AM
I was told the same story by an 80-year old FAA POI while he was trying to find a reason to fail me on a asst. Chief 141 ride.
Itís been making the rounds.
Does t really matter if itís true or not, it just signals a certain attitude.

Yes, one of my examiners told the same story. Which I dutifully relayed to kids who I examined.

JohnBurke
10-01-2018, 06:53 AM
Because the Wrights only built a couple!

Not true. There were three.

The red one was a dog.

badflaps
10-09-2018, 02:22 AM
Nobody could fool Inspector Badflaps with phony logbook entries. He knew all of the tail numbers by heart, because they were single digits. 😁

And in Sanskrit.

GoodLuckChuck
10-23-2018, 10:33 AM
Goodluckchuck

micah
11-14-2018, 05:14 AM
Iíd like to add my $.02 here.
As pilots we need to stop signing contracts. They are for training that in most cases is [I]required!![I] Put another way, no matter who the company hires, they must still be trained. Itís a cost of doing business.

We are hurting ourselves. Yes, I think that one should honor his commitments. But also realize that most of the signing of contracts is done by young pilots who naively think that the employer will Ďbe fairí or Ďreasonableí. Been there done that. I guess what Iím trying to say is letís take care of each other and say no to contracts, period. And spread the word.

By the way, Iím quite sure that I was employed by the same company as the OP, was it WI based? If so they absolutely will go after you for the contract, just an FYI.

PICsf340
11-15-2018, 11:08 AM
I was having a conversation with a guy in an FBO today and he brought up a point I had never thought about. If you sign a training agreement/contract, leave early, and repay the agreed amount, is that repayment (or payments) tax deductible? Just curious. I had never though about it from that angle before.

galaxy flyer
11-15-2018, 01:49 PM
It was, but I think the new tax law changed or eliminated I reimbursed business expenses including training.

I’m not sure how training contracts will work out in the age of pilot shortages. On one hand, employers need them to hang onto pilots who often, no matter how good the present offer, will leap at a $5,000 raise. On the other hand, if every pilot refused, they might go away, but that’s highly dependent on the individuals. If one is getting a valuable type rating, they make sense, really for both parties. I signed one for a year, but a year’s experience is worth it. I stayed 12, by the way. If it’s for a recurrent or minor ground training like international school, it’s ridiculous to sign.

GF

dera
11-15-2018, 09:55 PM
If itís for a recurrent or minor ground training like international school, itís ridiculous to sign.

GF

Most of the time these contracts aren't enforceable though. If it's company specific mandatory training, there's no consideration, and thus no contract.

PICsf340
11-16-2018, 03:27 AM
I agree with all and have always felt the same way, but the point this guy brought up was a good one. I was kind of disappointed that I didn't think of it from that angle myself, being as money conscious as I am. Yet, some young whipper-snapper makes me think in a different way. What's up with that?

BluePAX
11-21-2018, 02:44 PM
Just my 2c, but while training contracts arenít usually enforceable, a promissory note usually is. That was in my own research on the subject when I had good reason to find out a while back. Obviously not a lawyer, but itís money well spent if you have this question!

Rama
11-21-2018, 08:16 PM
Maybe the lesson is don't sign a contract that ypu are not willing to abide by.

sailingfun
11-24-2018, 04:59 PM
Maybe the lesson is to consider your word and integrity to be important.

aldrich
12-10-2018, 08:21 PM
Hey *aldric*, did you report your felony conviction to Republic Airlines, or did you fail to report that again?



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