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View Full Version : Results


Southerner
07-27-2018, 06:17 AM
74% YES

Wow.


cmesoar
07-27-2018, 06:19 AM
74% YES

Wow.

WOW is right! I was not expecting that high of a yes!

GuppyPuppy
07-27-2018, 06:19 AM
Effective date 8/1/2018.

98.39% voting.

Gup


zulu99
07-27-2018, 06:22 AM
Thatís amazing news......we are totally screwed.

Mattio
07-27-2018, 06:23 AM
74% YES

Wow.

Ditto. I just died a little inside. Good luck to us on our next contract. Hope the overwhelming support for this TA doesn't hold us back. Here's to fighting the contract interpretation battles that we will fight in unity.

Bozo the pilot
07-27-2018, 06:26 AM
Thatís amazing news......we are totally screwed.

Na- You'll live. :rolleyes:

GuppyPuppy
07-27-2018, 06:30 AM
Alaska code share agreement to be announced this afternoon.

GP

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 06:38 AM
Alaska code share agreement to be announced this afternoon.

GP

JB would never do that.

Bozo the pilot
07-27-2018, 06:40 AM
JB would never do that.

You vote No Bd?

dontsurf
07-27-2018, 07:33 AM
at least now there will be no more arguing and complaining.

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 07:33 AM
You vote No Bd?

I voted YES.

I discussed my concerns about specific provisions here and with reps openly, and I feel we could have possibly (maybe, maybe not) pushed harder in May for additional value, but ultimately since "going back to May and staying at the table" isn't on the ballet, I thought YES was the best option considering all "likely outcomes" of YES or NO.

I trust our union officials, but don't trust this company or a VERY large proportion of this pilot group.

Don't care if that offends anyone, it's just reality. Too many of our guys lick windows and eat boogers and actually EXPECT to make less than our peers. Can't win a war with a "special" army.

With that said, we have some good provisions in the CBA and in one single contract at least moved into the bottom of the top tier of airline CBAs (we absolutely deserve to be in the top tier). Those other CBAs have been the result of decades of cumulative iterations and improvements.

So, we are now in 7th out of the 9 companies I consider carreer companies (Delta, United, American, Southwest, FedEx, UPS(first 6 not in order), JetBlue, Alaska,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Spirit(sorry Spirit, not a great contract).

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 07:35 AM
at least now there will be no more arguing and complaining.

Yes, we will all agree for the next 7-8 years or until the JCBA....

MGMTiswatchingU
07-27-2018, 07:43 AM
I voted YES.

I discussed my concerns about specific provisions here and with reps openly, and I feel we could have possibly (maybe, maybe not) pushed harder in May for additional value, but ultimately since "going back to May and staying at the table" isn't on the ballet, I thought YES was the best option considering all "likely outcomes" of YES or NO.



This is more of a surprise to me than the results of the TA hahahhaa.

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 07:50 AM
This is more of a surprise to me than the results of the TA hahahhaa.

I don't know why? I have been telling everyone here that I may vote YES.

There are those who want everyone to vote YES and have been sweeping everything under the rug that is a valid concern. They don't want to acknowledge the low points or where we are potentially exposed to harm.

There are NO voters doing the opposite.

I prefer to at least acknowledge and discuss the weak points of the CBA, that way if we all know what they are and can live with them, so be it.

I hope this union learned they need to call for a "labor dispute" much sooner next time and I hope this pilot group has learned what a labor dispute means...

There's a reason it took so many years for JB to negotiate in good faith, and we are the reason.

FollowMe
07-27-2018, 07:54 AM
at least now there will be no more arguing and complaining.

Hahahahaha, I see what you did there.

seekingblue
07-27-2018, 08:00 AM
Hope we can find our way back to being a united pilot group. No more infighting- I hope.

PasserOGas
07-27-2018, 08:06 AM
Thatís amazing news......we are totally screwed.

Great news! A bottom feeding contract passed by a large margin!

This should go well when we start negotiating again...

See you here in 7 years when we debate another bottom of our peers TA.

"But it's such an improvement from where we are NOW!"

Earnings that quarter will suck.

New Airplanes/routes will be announced.

So predictable.

GuppyPuppy
07-27-2018, 08:09 AM
Hope we can find our way back to being a united pilot group. No more infighting- I hope.

United. That would be nice.

Maybe I could be junior (or senior) to myself!😀

Gup

GP

BunkerF16
07-27-2018, 08:14 AM
Hope we can find our way back to being a united pilot group. No more infighting- I hope.




Yeah.......not going to happen...you're talking about pilots here, remember?

MGMTiswatchingU
07-27-2018, 08:21 AM
I voted YES.

I discussed my concerns about specific provisions here and with reps openly, and I feel we could have possibly (maybe, maybe not) pushed harder in May for additional value, but ultimately since "going back to May and staying at the table" isn't on the ballet, I thought YES was the best option considering all "likely outcomes" of YES or NO.

I trust our union officials, but don't trust this company or a VERY large proportion of this pilot group.

Don't care if that offends anyone, it's just reality. Too many of our guys lick windows and eat boogers and actually EXPECT to make less than our peers. Can't win a war with a "special" army.

With that said, we have some good provisions in the CBA and in one single contract at least moved into the bottom of the top tier of airline CBAs (we absolutely deserve to be in the top tier). Those other CBAs have been the result of decades of cumulative iterations and improvements.

So, we are now in 7th out of the 9 companies I consider carreer companies (Delta, United, American, Southwest, FedEx, UPS(first 6 not in order), JetBlue, Alaska,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Spirit(sorry Spirit, not a great contract).

Your tone towards the TA echoed a strong NO that's why. But I agree with you to be knowledgeable and highlight/discuss the shortcomings.

PasserOGas
07-27-2018, 08:29 AM
Your tone towards the TA echoed a strong NO that's why. But I agree with you to be knowledgeable and highlight/discuss the shortcomings.

Wow, the stock is on a tear. Wall Street must really love ou CBA for some reason. I have no idea why that would be since it's sooooo good.

seekingblue
07-27-2018, 09:08 AM
Wow, the stock is on a tear. Wall Street must really love ou CBA for some reason. I have no idea why that would be since it's sooooo good.

Actually, our stock is up a whopping .02c/share today. I think Wall Street likes our CBA, because it stabilizes our pilot costsó the actual cost of the CBA doesnít matter just as long as itís in place.

Sun Tzu
07-27-2018, 09:13 AM
Actually, our stock is up a whopping .02c/share today. I think Wall Street likes our CBA, because it stabilizes our pilot costsó the actual cost of the CBA doesnít matter just as long as itís in place.


Agreed. It was all pretty much priced in. There are bigger issues Wall Street should be worried about regarding JBLU.

hilltopflyer
07-27-2018, 12:10 PM
When is the supplemental bid going to be? Oh never mind forgot implantation doesnít start till January 2020

Aero1900
07-27-2018, 02:10 PM
Great news! A bottom feeding contract passed by a large margin!


You are entitled to that opinion. However, I am entitled to point out some perspective. I am senior a Frontier FO.

Your new contract would give me a $57,000 raise, increase my per diem by .40, pay for my medical and global entry, participate in profit sharing, provide scope protection, average duty period guarantee, cheaper health insurance and double my retirement contributions!

So.... have a little perspective. You aren't going to be the highest compensated pilots in the country, but you are close. Find some satisfaction in your job and benefits that vastly exceed almost every other employee in the country. The average salary in the US is $51,000. The average 401(k) match in the us is 2.7%, you get 15% with no match required. The average salary with 10 to 19 years of work experience and a Master's degree is $99,000. Every single pilot at JetBlue will exceed that, and with more than double the retirement contributions.

Feel free to tell me that I'm what's dragging this industry down, I understand that mentality. I understand pattern bargaining. I understand that you get what you negotiate and not what you are worth. However, we (Frontier) aren't even ASKING for a contract as good as you got. Our initial ask is less then you got, and no doubt that we end up with will be less. So, stop with the "bottom feeder" crap.

Aquaticus
07-27-2018, 02:19 PM
You are entitled to that opinion. However, I am entitled to point out some perspective. I am senior a Frontier FO.

Your new contract would give me a $57,000 raise, increase my per diem by .40, pay for my medical and global entry, participate in profit sharing, provide scope protection, average duty period guarantee, cheaper health insurance and double my retirement contributions!

So.... have a little perspective. You aren't going to be the highest compensated pilots in the country, but you are close. Find some satisfaction in your job and benefits that vastly exceed almost every other employee in the country. The average salary in the US is $51,000. The average 401(k) match in the us is 2.7%, you get 15% with no match required. The average salary with 10 to 19 years of work experience and a Master's degree is $99,000. Every single pilot at JetBlue will exceed that, and with more than double the retirement contributions.

Feel free to tell me that I'm what's dragging this industry down, I understand that mentality. I understand pattern bargaining. I understand that you get what you negotiate and not what you are worth. However, we (Frontier) aren't even ASKING for a contract as good as you got. Our initial ask is less then you got, and no doubt that we end up with will be less. So, stop with the "bottom feeder" crap.

And your mentality is what is killing your pilot groups ability to negotiate. You aren't the "average" American. You are tasked with making life and death decisions with millions of liability on the line. Not many people could do what you make seem easy to do. JetBlue hires about 50% of every newhire class that is otherwise unhireable by other airlines to keep this mentality alive and well.

Aero1900
07-27-2018, 02:54 PM
And your mentality is what is killing your pilot groups ability to negotiate.

Right. I have done everything my (our) union has asked of me. I have participated in all of our informational picketing events, I fly the bare minimum required by the contract, I completed both contract surveys, I wear my lanyard, I attend and participate in union meetings. I fly the contract and do nothing more.

That being said, I do understand your point and try to be concious of it all the time. Regarding your contract, what's done is done. Be happy that you got a significant improvements and your airlines first contract. I hope you can all find happiness and make peace with your cba.

If we have future picketing events, please come support Frontier pilots. We'd love to have you there.

Gearswinger
07-27-2018, 04:22 PM
Great news! A bottom feeding contract passed by a large margin!







Iíve seen you post things similar to this multiple times. Do you feel that the contract comparison guide that the union put out and the presentations that they made were lying?

therapysession
07-27-2018, 04:31 PM
You are entitled to that opinion. However, I am entitled to point out some perspective. I am senior a Frontier FO.

Your new contract would give me a $57,000 raise, increase my per diem by .40, pay for my medical and global entry, participate in profit sharing, provide scope protection, average duty period guarantee, cheaper health insurance and double my retirement contributions!

So.... have a little perspective. You aren't going to be the highest compensated pilots in the country, but you are close. Find some satisfaction in your job and benefits that vastly exceed almost every other employee in the country. The average salary in the US is $51,000. The average 401(k) match in the us is 2.7%, you get 15% with no match required. The average salary with 10 to 19 years of work experience and a Master's degree is $99,000. Every single pilot at JetBlue will exceed that, and with more than double the retirement contributions.

Feel free to tell me that I'm what's dragging this industry down, I understand that mentality. I understand pattern bargaining. I understand that you get what you negotiate and not what you are worth. However, we (Frontier) aren't even ASKING for a contract as good as you got. Our initial ask is less then you got, and no doubt that we end up with will be less. So, stop with the "bottom feeder" crap.

Great post Aero.

atpcliff
07-27-2018, 04:34 PM
Does this new contract have Training Pay, and then First Year Pay, or do you go start at First Year Pay on Day One?
Thanks...

seekingblue
07-27-2018, 04:36 PM
And your mentality is what is killing your pilot groups ability to negotiate. You aren't the "average" American. You are tasked with making life and death decisions with millions of liability on the line. Not many people could do what you make seem easy to do. JetBlue hires about 50% of every newhire class that is otherwise unhireable by other airlines to keep this mentality alive and well.

Donít blame the jr guys. I wonít stand for it.

Say what you want about the contract, but Donít attack the people coming here. They are doing what is right for their family.

pilotpayne
07-27-2018, 04:47 PM
Donít blame the jr guys. I wonít stand for it.

Say what you want about the contract, but Donít attack the people coming here. They are doing what is right for their family.

I agree completely ridiculous.
We just voted in a contract and still we are full of self loathing.

That is what they hire. I donít bash our guys much and I get annoyed to read ďstupid pilot groupĒ or whatever but man do we have a bunch of eeyores here.

pilotpayne
07-27-2018, 04:51 PM
Great news! A bottom feeding contract passed by a large margin!

This should go well when we start negotiating again...

See you here in 7 years when we debate another bottom of our peers TA.

"But it's such an improvement from where we are NOW!"

Earnings that quarter will suck.

New Airplanes/routes will be announced.

So predictable.

Wait your sticking around? :)

PSU Flyer
07-27-2018, 04:56 PM
You are entitled to that opinion. However, I am entitled to point out some perspective. I am senior a Frontier FO.

Your new contract would give me a $57,000 raise, increase my per diem by .40, pay for my medical and global entry, participate in profit sharing, provide scope protection, average duty period guarantee, cheaper health insurance and double my retirement contributions!

So.... have a little perspective. You aren't going to be the highest compensated pilots in the country, but you are close. Find some satisfaction in your job and benefits that vastly exceed almost every other employee in the country. The average salary in the US is $51,000. The average 401(k) match in the us is 2.7%, you get 15% with no match required. The average salary with 10 to 19 years of work experience and a Master's degree is $99,000. Every single pilot at JetBlue will exceed that, and with more than double the retirement contributions.

Feel free to tell me that I'm what's dragging this industry down, I understand that mentality. I understand pattern bargaining. I understand that you get what you negotiate and not what you are worth. However, we (Frontier) aren't even ASKING for a contract as good as you got. Our initial ask is less then you got, and no doubt that we end up with will be less. So, stop with the "bottom feeder" crap.

Iím sure doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs, and other professionals are all sitting around comparing their income to the average American. Is this guy for real?

Beaver Hunter
07-27-2018, 05:23 PM
Great post Aero.
Not really, we pilots sell ourselves short every time. We have billions of dollars of liability riding on our decisions. We are worth more.
Not advocating such a thing. But a couple of disenfranchised crews could bring the world economy to a halt.
You pay top dollar, you attract top talent.
Only comparison are oil tanker crews. And see what massive disasters some of them have caused because their companies pay peanuts.

MasterOfPuppets
07-27-2018, 05:59 PM
You are entitled to that opinion. However, I am entitled to point out some perspective. I am senior a Frontier FO.

Your new contract would give me a $57,000 raise, increase my per diem by .40, pay for my medical and global entry, participate in profit sharing, provide scope protection, average duty period guarantee, cheaper health insurance and double my retirement contributions!

So.... have a little perspective. You aren't going to be the highest compensated pilots in the country, but you are close. Find some satisfaction in your job and benefits that vastly exceed almost every other employee in the country. The average salary in the US is $51,000. The average 401(k) match in the us is 2.7%, you get 15% with no match required. The average salary with 10 to 19 years of work experience and a Master's degree is $99,000. Every single pilot at JetBlue will exceed that, and with more than double the retirement contributions.

Feel free to tell me that I'm what's dragging this industry down, I understand that mentality. I understand pattern bargaining. I understand that you get what you negotiate and not what you are worth. However, we (Frontier) aren't even ASKING for a contract as good as you got. Our initial ask is less then you got, and no doubt that we end up with will be less. So, stop with the "bottom feeder" crap.

Why are you comparing pilots to the rest of society? We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained and we fight to be compensated as such

Noworkallplay
07-27-2018, 06:13 PM
Donít blame the jr guys. I wonít stand for it.

Say what you want about the contract, but Donít attack the people coming here. They are doing what is right for their family.

So if you agree to work for a company who has a group of pilots who agree to bottom tier wages and work conditions what does that make you? How in this enviroment to you vote for a contract this lacking and knowing full well the bar will be moved ever higher by 3 other groups in the next 1-2 years?

Brickhut
07-27-2018, 06:17 PM
Why are you comparing pilots to the rest of society? We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained and we fight to be compensated as suchYou wear you epaulets and tie to the grocery store, don't you?

Delta757Fan
07-27-2018, 07:26 PM
Very good news, now maybe all of you can just do your job and fly the plane while I receive free Blue Chips and cookies in back while watching my PTV and charging my phone. :D

Bluedriver
07-27-2018, 07:28 PM
You wear you epaulets and tie to the grocery store, don't you?

I didn't get that impression, and , he's right.

We are talking about PILOT compensation. I literally don't care what non-pilots make. Not relevant. I expect to be compensated comparable to MY peers.

Slowhawk
07-27-2018, 07:45 PM
So as an out of the loop regional rat, I have to ask..

Does this mean a change in pay rate? If so, whatís the 1st and 2nd FO and CA?

jgdeleon09
07-27-2018, 08:01 PM
So are you guys still required to clean the airplane when non revving?

Brickhut
07-27-2018, 08:37 PM
I didn't get that impression, and , he's right.

We are talking about PILOT compensation. I literally don't care what non-pilots make. Not relevant. I expect to be compensated comparable to MY peers.Not sure what the hell you're on about. The undocumented Mexican immigrant that just did the drywall in my basement remodel has more "skill" in his foreskin than ANY Airbus pilot. The most difficult part of our jobs is retaining our damn 1st class medical every 6 months. You know that, I know that, and the rest of us know that. Fact. Not up for debate.

I wasn't talking about compensation. My point was only that any one who refers to themselves as "We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained" probably is the type of guy/gal that wears full uniform to run errands. Period.

Obviously, you wear yours to family photos, and your wife's friend's Halloween party. But, hey, you're not average. You're special.

dontsurf
07-27-2018, 09:13 PM
at least now there will be no more arguing and complaining.

am i good or am i good?

Rascal
07-27-2018, 09:39 PM
Not sure what the hell you're on about. The undocumented Mexican immigrant that just did the drywall in my basement remodel has more "skill" in his foreskin than ANY Airbus pilot. The most difficult part of our jobs is retaining our damn 1st class medical every 6 months. You know that, I know that, and the rest of us know that. Fact. Not up for debate.

I wasn't talking about compensation. My point was only that any one who refers to themselves as "We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained" probably is the type of guy/gal that wears full uniform to run errands. Period.

Obviously, you wear yours to family photos, and your wife's friend's Halloween party. But, hey, you're not average. You're special.

I used remodel houses back in my regional days and I can say that flying an Airbus is alot more complicated than hanging up drywall. I guess your Airbus training only lasted a day or two as opposed to the standard 4 to 6 weeks. Not to mention the time and training it took to get hired at an airline makes wonder what you have been smoking when you reduce my job to less than skilled category.

Aero1900
07-27-2018, 10:03 PM
I love these forums. I read a few other non aviation forums regularly, but APC is the best.

5 pages into a TA results thread and we are discussing how much skill is in the foreskin of a Mexican hanging drywall.

Brickhut
07-27-2018, 10:09 PM
I used to remodel houses back in my regional days and I can say that flying an Airbus is a lot more complicated than hanging up drywall. I guess your Airbus training only lasted a day or two as opposed to the standard 4 to 6 weeks. Not to mention the time and training it took to get hired at an airline makes wonder what you have been smoking when you reduce my job to a less than skilled category.Ok, Ok, you're right; you ARE special.

BeatNavy
07-27-2018, 10:10 PM
Not sure what the hell you're on about. The undocumented Mexican immigrant that just did the drywall in my basement remodel has more "skill" in his foreskin than ANY Airbus pilot. The most difficult part of our jobs is retaining our damn 1st class medical every 6 months. You know that, I know that, and the rest of us know that. Fact. Not up for debate.

I wasn't talking about compensation. My point was only that any one who refers to themselves as "We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained" probably is the type of guy/gal that wears full uniform to run errands. Period.

Obviously, you wear yours to family photos, and your wife's friend's Halloween party. But, hey, you're not average. You're special.

Letís play a game called letís trade jobs for a day. Iíll watch a YouTube video and learn how to hang drywall, and Iíll go hang drywall. Then Iíll give the guy in your example an airbus (preferably one not from my company), show him a video on how to start it up, fly it, and land it, and give him the keys. Letís compare results and see how much flying and landing skill that foreskin of his has.

Brickhut
07-27-2018, 10:19 PM
I love these forums. I read a few other non aviation forums regularly, but APC is the best.

5 pages into a TA results thread and we are discussing how much skill is in the foreskin of a Mexican hanging drywall.You should see it. Looks like dag-gummed NASA floated that wall. Two coats of KILLZ and 2 coats of "Edmonton Winters' Morn' Salmon" and the result was just dandy.

Brickhut
07-27-2018, 10:24 PM
Let’s play a game called let’s trade jobs for a day. I’ll watch a YouTube video and learn how to hang drywall, and I’ll go hang drywall. Then I’ll give the guy in your example an airbus (preferably one not from my company), show him a video on how to start it up, fly it, and land it, and give him the keys. Let’s compare results and see how much flying and landing skill that foreskin of his has.Juan might leave a crater full 'o bodies, but I GUARANTEE you'll leave more nail-holes and tape seams. Advantage: Juan.

*edit* Airbus narrowbody series does not require keys to start. Bro, do you even pull standard?

Juan, see that knob down there? turn it to the right.

"Si"

Ok, see the square thing that says "ENG 1"? Pull it up and flip it forward.

"Si"

Ok Juan, you're halfway to being a typed airbus pilot.

Now, see them 2 levers that look like a gear shifter on a '75 El Camino?

"Si"

Ok, now just push 'em forward till you feel two clicks.

"Si"

Ok, Juan, now see that button that says "AP2"?

"Si"

Push it.

Time for landing amigo.....see that red button on yer joystick?

"Si"

Push it.

"Ay dios mio!"

It's ok Juan, that noise is normal.

Now, when you hear James Earl Jones say "30", I want you to crack that stick back a C-Hair like you floating some DryDex Low Dust compound over 3/4" board.

"Si"

Ok Juan, when you hear Darth Vader say "Viente", you pull the gear shifter back till they stop.

"Si"

Congrats, Amigo, I have control and you just BeatNavy.

pilotpayne
07-27-2018, 11:18 PM
So if you agree to work for a company who has a group of pilots who agree to bottom tier wages and work conditions what does that make you? How in this enviroment to you vote for a contract this lacking and knowing full well the bar will be moved ever higher by 3 other groups in the next 1-2 years?

ďThis lackingĒ

Is it? Sure there are some parts that are not perfect but you (Mr Fedex)
are being a little hyperbolic.

But yeah I guess all of us that work here and the ones who voted yes are bottom tier. Thank you for showing us where we stand. Donít worry there are plenty on this forum that will happily agree with you.

PasserOGas
07-27-2018, 11:26 PM
Not sure what the hell you're on about. The undocumented Mexican immigrant that just did the drywall in my basement remodel has more "skill" in his foreskin than ANY Airbus pilot. The most difficult part of our jobs is retaining our damn 1st class medical every 6 months. You know that, I know that, and the rest of us know that. Fact. Not up for debate.

I wasn't talking about compensation. My point was only that any one who refers to themselves as "We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained" probably is the type of guy/gal that wears full uniform to run errands. Period.

Obviously, you wear yours to family photos, and your wife's friend's Halloween party. But, hey, you're not average. You're special.

Well, I hope you never get hired here. It sounds like you min-run this profession and have very little General knowledge.

Myself, I have millions of dollars of military training, and instructing, including safety school (accident investigation), and a highly technical degree from one of the best universities in the world.

I know these attributes bring an extra layer of safety. Although 99% of the time it's SOP and nothing crazy happens, with my training and experience I feel very confident in my abilities to handle any "handleable" situation.

But it's cool if your skills put you below someone hanging drywall. Just please don't fly my family around.

Brickhut
07-27-2018, 11:34 PM
Well, I hope you never get hired here. It sounds like you min-run this profession and have very little General knowledge.

Myself, I have millions of dollars of military training, and instructing, including safety school (accident investigation), and a highly technical degree from one of the best universities in the world.

I know these attributes bring an extra layer of safety. Although 99% of the time it's SOP and nothing crazy happens, with my training and experience I feel very confident in my abilities to handle any "handleable" situation.

But it's cool if your skills put you below someone hanging drywall. Just please don't fly my family around.All that and the best you could manage was BJ? Jeez Sully Yeagerberger-Armstrong, I guess I should worry about you flying my family around. What portion of the cognitive test at Delta did you fail?

*edit* Found it.

http://digg.com/video/man-cannot-fit-bag-overhead-bin

PasserOGas
07-27-2018, 11:46 PM
All that and the best you could manage was BJ? Jeez Sully Yeagerberger-Armstrong, I guess I should worry about you flying my family around. What portion of the cognitive test at Delta did you fail?

*edit* Found it.

Flight Attendant Helps A Man Fit His Carry-On In The Overhead Bin With One Painfully Obvious Solution - Digg (http://digg.com/video/man-cannot-fit-bag-overhead-bin)

It's actually a pretty standard resume from a former military pilot. Maybe you should take some online classes, or crack open a book.

Perhaps if you didn't set the bar so low for yourself you would stop setting it so low for the rest of us.

Rascal
07-27-2018, 11:47 PM
Ok, Ok, you're right; you ARE special.

More special than your drywall guy.

Brickhut
07-28-2018, 12:09 AM
It's actually a pretty standard resume from a former military pilot. Maybe you should take some online classes, or crack open a book.

Perhaps if you didn't set the bar so low for yourself you would stop setting it so low for the rest of us.Your screen name is "PasserOGas". You either have the comical depth of a piece of rice paper, or you drove a 135/10. Either way, when you're straightening your tie on morning 3 of your next 4-day, please realize that you're (we're) not special people, no matter what our past training may be. We're professional button-pushers that have lost any and all flying skill we may have once possessed due to the fact that we made a choice to fly FiFi.

If only, in all your highly skilled training, you would've paid a little more attention in "Reading Comprehension 101", you would know that my posts have had ZERO to do with "setting the bar low" and EVERYTHING to do with correlating self perception to wearing your uniform in public because it makes you feel neat, you'd then realize I still want LeBron compensation for WalMart greeter effort.

So when you're at the next lobby bar, in you're braided leather belt and white New Balance shoes, and the hot 30-something at the bar asks what you do for a living, tell the truth-"I'm a systems integration tech with Honeywell/Thales." You'll still almost get laid. But with integrity.

PasserOGas
07-28-2018, 12:15 AM
Your screen name is "PasserOGas". You either have the comical depth of a piece of rice paper, or you drove a 135/10. Either way, when you're straightening your tie on morning 3 of your next 4-day, please realize that you're (we're) not special people, no matter what our past training may be. We're professional button-pushers that have lost any and all flying skill we may have once possessed due to the fact that we made a choice to fly FiFi.

If only, in all your highly skilled training, you would've paid a little more attention in "Reading Comprehension 101", you would know that my posts have had ZERO to do with "setting the bar low" and EVERYTHING to do with correlating self perception to wearing your uniform in public because it makes you feel neat, you'd then realize I still want LeBron compensation for WalMart greeter effort.

So when you're at the next lobby bar, in you're braided leather belt and white New Balance shoes, and the hot 30-something at the bar asks what you do for a living, tell the truth-"I'm a systems integration tech with Honeywell/Thales." You'll still almost get laid. But with integrity.

Until something goes wrong. But that won't satisfy you.

Let's not forget about the decision making aspect of the job. You think your drywall installer has as many expensive, high risk problems thrown at him as we do? And how many volumes of regulations and manuals must Pepe integrate in dynamic situations in order to bring about a safe and efficient outcome? How much training did Pepe receive before he could hang dry wall? How many people could die if he does it wrong?

I am starting to seriously doubt that you are a pilot.

Brickhut
07-28-2018, 12:27 AM
Until something goes wrong. But that won't satisfy you.

Let's not forget about the decision making aspect of the job. You think your drywall installer has as many expensive, high risk problems thrown at him as we do? And how many volumes of regulations and manuals must Pepe integrate in dynamic situations in order to bring about a safe and efficient outcome? How much training did Pepe receive before he could hang dry wall? How many people could die if he does it wrong?

I am starting to seriously doubt that you are a pilot.It's Juan, show some damn respect!

And it could be a family of four, or it could be the Krystal Grand in MMUN with 2000 guests!

You think when Juan has an emergency, he has an ECAM pop up telling him what to do? You think Juan can flip through a QRH when temps are drying out joint compound faster than he can lay it on, or if his stilt comes undone while hes "mustache up" during a complicated ceiling splay? You don't know what pressure is, Gasman.

Qotsaautopilot
07-28-2018, 12:29 AM
Until something goes wrong. But that won't satisfy you.

Let's not forget about the decision making aspect of the job. You think your drywall installer has as many expensive, high risk problems thrown at him as we do? And how many volumes of regulations and manuals must Pepe integrate in dynamic situations in order to bring about a safe and efficient outcome? How much training did Pepe receive before he could hang dry wall? How many people could die if he does it wrong?

I am starting to seriously doubt that you are a pilot.

People that equate autopilot to pilots not having skills are usually people trying to frame a narrative to intentionally devalue the profession for their own gain.

99% of the job is decision making. Thatís what we are trained for. Many of us think the job is easy. Highly skilled professionals usually do. They are experts at their craft. The guy that delivered my two kids thinks his job is easy too. That doesnít mean I think he should make less because the average American makes 1/10th what he does or that the average American should be delivering my kids into the world. Iím sure he agrees when he sends the insurance company the bill.

Point being just because you think something is easy doesnít mean it is. It means youíre an expert in your field

Brickhut
07-28-2018, 12:49 AM
People that equate autopilot to pilots not having skills are usually people trying to frame a narrative to intentionally devalue the profession for their own gain.

99% of the job is decision making. That’s what we are trained for. Many of us think the job is easy. Highly skilled professionals usually do. They are experts at their craft. The guy that delivered my two kids thinks his job is easy too. That doesn’t mean I think he should make less because the average American makes 1/10th what he does or that the average American should be delivering my kids into the world. I’m sure he agrees when he sends the insurance company the bill.

Point being just because you think something is easy doesn’t mean it is. It means you’re an expert in your fieldMuch the same as the Quiznos Sandwich Artist in JAX. Got in too late for dinner and woke up too early for bfast. By the time I'd arrived in JAX for our 45 minute turn, I was so hAngry, I could've eaten my foot rest. Being 7th in line, she picks me out of the crowd and takes my order. At that moment she became worthy of Bourdain/Fierri/Corra compensation. She was the most important chef on the planet to me at that moment. 7 minutes and $8.73 later, I was the happiest, most satisfied little airbus pilot in the world.

She thought her job was easy.

She saved 186 passengers' lives that day.

hilltopflyer
07-28-2018, 05:17 AM
It's Juan, show some damn respect!

And it could be a family of four, or it could be the Krystal Grand in MMUN with 2000 guests!

You think when Juan has an emergency, he has an ECAM pop up telling him what to do? You think Juan can flip through a QRH when temps are drying out joint compound faster than he can lay it on, or if his stilt comes undone while hes "mustache up" during a complicated ceiling splay? You don't know what pressure is, Gasman.

Have you ever hung drywall? Itís not that hard. Please just stop trolling trying to compare the two job skill levels.

pilotpayne
07-28-2018, 06:18 AM
Much the same as the Quiznos Sandwich Artist in JAX. Got in too late for dinner and woke up too early for bfast. By the time I'd arrived in JAX for our 45 minute turn, I was so hAngry, I could've eaten my foot rest. Being 7th in line, she picks me out of the crowd and takes my order. At that moment she became worthy of Bourdain/Fierri/Corra compensation. She was the most important chef on the planet to me at that moment. 7 minutes and $8.73 later, I was the happiest, most satisfied little airbus pilot in the world.

She thought her job was easy.

She saved 186 passengers' lives that day.


You are not going to win with this example.

Slowhawk
07-28-2018, 07:32 AM
So about those pay rates :D

AYLflyer
07-28-2018, 07:49 AM
Iím sure doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, CEOs, and other professionals are all sitting around comparing their income to the average American. Is this guy for real?

There's a difference between comparing your income to the average household and keeping perspective on life around you.

I want to be the highest paid professional I can be, but that doesn't mean I can't have a good perspective on my life/career compared to the average citizen. The whole "We're not the average citizen" line is bull****. You're one medical bust away from just being an 'average citizen'.

So many guys in this profession are disconnected from reality when it comes to pay/benefits. I watch all my friends who aren't in avitaion work their butts off to maybe someday clear $60-$80k/yr and get 3-4% retirement contributions from their companies if they're lucky.

Perspective. You can be grateful for what you have and what you earn while not selling yourself short. We can still fight hard for what we deserve to be paid as a professional aviator and still have some humility in knowing that the very people we haul back and forth may work 2,3,4,5x harder than us and will and never see the earnings potential we see as pro pilots.

Bluedriver
07-28-2018, 07:56 AM
So about those pay rates :D

A320 rates are nearly an exact match to Alaska rates. Look at Alaska APC profile.

E180 rates are 20% less.

MasterOfPuppets
07-28-2018, 07:58 AM
There's a difference between comparing your income to the average household and keeping perspective on life around you.

I want to be the highest paid professional I can be, but that doesn't mean I can't have a good perspective on my life/career compared to the average citizen. The whole "We're not the average citizen" line is bull****. You're one medical bust away from just being an 'average citizení

Yep you are exactly right. unlike the rest of society we are one bad blood pressure reading away from losing our jobs and the lifestyle we have built for our families. We have to do everything we can to make sure our families are supported in case that medical goes tomorrow. We are forced to retire whether we are ready our not. We have a finite amount of money we can earn in our lifetimes and need to capitalize on the fact that pilots are not a dime a dozen. If you lost your medical tomorrow could you replace a 250K income?

Bluedriver
07-28-2018, 07:58 AM
There's a difference between comparing your income to the average household and keeping perspective on life around you.

I want to be the highest paid professional I can be, but that doesn't mean I can't have a good perspective on my life/career compared to the average citizen. The whole "We're not the average citizen" line is bull****. You're one medical bust away from just being an 'average citizen'.

So many guys in this profession are disconnected from reality when it comes to pay/benefits. I watch all my friends who aren't in avitaion work their butts off to maybe someday clear $60-$80k/yr and get 3-4% retirement contributions from their companies if they're lucky.

Perspective. You can be grateful for what you have and what you earn while not selling yourself short. We can still fight hard for what we deserve to be paid as a professional aviator and still have some humility in knowing that the very people we haul back and forth may work 2,3,4,5x harder than us and will and never see the earnings potential we see as pro pilots.

As long as you don't use it, at all, to rationalize accepting less than your comparable major airline PILOT peers, sure.

Did your friends not have career day in highschool?

😁

Bluedriver
07-28-2018, 08:00 AM
Yep you are exactly right. unlike the rest of society we are one bad blood pressure reading away from losing our jobs and the lifestyle we have built for our families. We have to do everything we can to make sure our families are supported in case that medical goes tomorrow. We are forced to retire whether we are ready our not. We have a finite amount of money we can earn in our lifetimes and need to capitalize on the fact that pilots are not a dime a dozen. If you lost your medical tomorrow could you replace a 250K income?

Very true....

nuball5
07-28-2018, 09:46 AM
Yep you are exactly right. unlike the rest of society we are one bad blood pressure reading away from losing our jobs and the lifestyle we have built for our families. We have to do everything we can to make sure our families are supported in case that medical goes tomorrow. We are forced to retire whether we are ready our not. We have a finite amount of money we can earn in our lifetimes and need to capitalize on the fact that pilots are not a dime a dozen. If you lost your medical tomorrow could you replace a 250K income?

I don't think our careers are as fragile as you make it out to be. I had my AME tell me recently that about 95% of pilots who can't walk out of his office with a new medical, get it the second time around. I was surprised with that number, but it stuck with me. Probably told me this cause he could tell I was nervous....as I am always when I go in. All you can do is eat healthy, exercise and have some good luck along the way.

Pilot41
07-28-2018, 11:23 AM
74% YES

Wow.

I was guessing 70% yes, not surprised. I did think it funny that there were many that thought it would get voted down. It was never going to be close. While it should have been better it was good enough that the fix was in.

Time to move on.

Mattio
07-28-2018, 11:50 AM
Not sure what the hell you're on about. The undocumented Mexican immigrant that just did the drywall in my basement remodel has more "skill" in his foreskin than ANY Airbus pilot. The most difficult part of our jobs is retaining our damn 1st class medical every 6 months. You know that, I know that, and the rest of us know that. Fact. Not up for debate.

I wasn't talking about compensation. My point was only that any one who refers to themselves as "We are not average citizens. We are extremely specialized, highly trained" probably is the type of guy/gal that wears full uniform to run errands. Period.

Obviously, you wear yours to family photos, and your wife's friend's Halloween party. But, hey, you're not average. You're special.

Definitely not a fact and definitely up for debate. So I know how to hang drywall and fly 121 and they're not even close. Drywall is taught in 2-day courses and the years and years of training and hands-on experience required for this profession is more akin to the level of education of a doctor than a drywall hanger. Thanks for demeaning our profession.

If a drywall hanger misses a seam and his co-worker doesn't catch it, nobody dies. I could go on but I just realized I'm wasting my time on you...

Bluedriver
07-28-2018, 12:04 PM
Definitely not a fact and definitely up for debate. So I know how to hang drywall and fly 121 and they're not even close. Drywall is taught in 2-day courses and the years and years of training and hands-on experience required for this profession is more akin to the level of education of a doctor than a drywall hanger. Thanks for demeaning our profession.

If a drywall hanger misses a seam and his co-worker doesn't catch it, nobody dies. I could go on but I just realized I'm wasting my time on you...

Yep, I've done some drywall as well, and engaging him is a waste of time.

He went FULL foxtrot North. You can't fix that.

Mattio
07-28-2018, 12:39 PM
Yep, I've done some drywall as well, and engaging him is a waste of time.

He went FULL foxtrot North. You can't fix that.

If he had said plasterer instead of drywall hanger then it would've given me pause... ;-) just kidding. It took 1 room to practice but on the 2nd room my uncle who is in the construction biz said I had the plastering down. That stuff can be tricky to make smooth (textured is way easier).

PasserOGas
07-28-2018, 04:38 PM
You're one medical bust away from just being an 'average citizen'.



Exactly why we should make more. There aren't many other professions where you can drop $250k in training only to end up flipping burgers because you get diabetes.

hilltopflyer
07-28-2018, 06:02 PM
Exactly why we should make more. There aren't many other professions where you can drop $250k in training only to end up flipping burgers because you get diabetes.

Disability insurance. Itís why every pilot needs it

Bahamasflyer
07-28-2018, 07:18 PM
Disability insurance. Itís why every pilot needs it

Exactly! Same occupation to age 65 I might add too.

Brickhut
07-28-2018, 09:28 PM
...and the years and years of trainingYears and years. Years and years?! Damn son, how many extra sim sessions did you need?! I just did some finger math and came to the sum of 14 months of my life have been spent in actual training. But that's only with PPL, INST, COMM, ATP, 5 types, countless recurrents/ PC's/PT's, ground school, CBT's, etc... But years and years? At the absolute minimum that implies 4 years. WOW! I mean...wow. I'd figuratively give both testicles to fly with you. AND, you "know how to fly 121"?!

I just wanna say congrats to all the B6 folks on the passing of your TA. You folks deserved it! And for the 99.87% of you that have to fly with the 5 guys that took the time to educate me on how much harder their job is-how much more skill they truly possessed than Juan the drywaller (and were fu%&ing serious about it), good luck I guess.

terminal
07-28-2018, 10:31 PM
Years and years. Years and years?! Damn son, how many extra sim sessions did you need?! I just did some finger math and came to the sum of 14 months of my life have been spent in actual training. But that's only with PPL, INST, COMM, ATP, 5 types, countless recurrents/ PC's/PT's, ground school, CBT's, etc... But years and years? At the absolute minimum that implies 4 years. WOW! I mean...wow. I'd figuratively give both testicles to fly with you. AND, you "know how to fly 121"?!

I just wanna say congrats to all the B6 folks on the passing of your TA. You folks deserved it! And for the 99.87% of you that have to fly with the 5 guys that took the time to educate me on how much harder their job is-how much more skill they truly possessed than Juan the drywaller (and were fu%&ing serious about it), good luck I guess.

Hey management troll, the TA passed, you can go away now.

Tom a Hawk
07-29-2018, 01:43 AM
Years and years. Years and years?! Damn son, how many extra sim sessions did you need?! I just did some finger math and came to the sum of 14 months of my life have been spent in actual training. But that's only with PPL, INST, COMM, ATP, 5 types, countless recurrents/ PC's/PT's, ground school, CBT's, etc... But years and years? At the absolute minimum that implies 4 years. WOW! I mean...wow. I'd figuratively give both testicles to fly with you. AND, you "know how to fly 121"?!

I just wanna say congrats to all the B6 folks on the passing of your TA. You folks deserved it! And for the 99.87% of you that have to fly with the 5 guys that took the time to educate me on how much harder their job is-how much more skill they truly possessed than Juan the drywaller (and were fu%&ing serious about it), good luck I guess.

Please donít stop, youíve worked them into a lather now. Funniest part is I think theyíre more insulted thinking Juan does a better job at drywall than they do. Everybody at B6 is a DIYer, a fixer house is all we can afford in the northeast.

Bluedriver
07-29-2018, 03:18 AM
Years and years. Years and years?! Damn son, how many extra sim sessions did you need?! I just did some finger math and came to the sum of 14 months of my life have been spent in actual training. But that's only with PPL, INST, COMM, ATP, 5 types, countless recurrents/ PC's/PT's, ground school, CBT's, etc... But years and years? At the absolute minimum that implies 4 years. WOW! I mean...wow. I'd figuratively give both testicles to fly with you. AND, you "know how to fly 121"?!

I just wanna say congrats to all the B6 folks on the passing of your TA. You folks deserved it! And for the 99.87% of you that have to fly with the 5 guys that took the time to educate me on how much harder their job is-how much more skill they truly possessed than Juan the drywaller (and were fu%&ing serious about it), good luck I guess.

You NEVER go full retard.

Southerner
07-29-2018, 06:25 AM
There's a difference between comparing your income to the average household and keeping perspective on life around you.

I want to be the highest paid professional I can be, but that doesn't mean I can't have a good perspective on my life/career compared to the average citizen. The whole "We're not the average citizen" line is bull****. You're one medical bust away from just being an 'average citizen'.

So many guys in this profession are disconnected from reality when it comes to pay/benefits. I watch all my friends who aren't in avitaion work their butts off to maybe someday clear $60-$80k/yr and get 3-4% retirement contributions from their companies if they're lucky.

Perspective. You can be grateful for what you have and what you earn while not selling yourself short. We can still fight hard for what we deserve to be paid as a professional aviator and still have some humility in knowing that the very people we haul back and forth may work 2,3,4,5x harder than us and will and never see the earnings potential we see as pro pilots.

I agree completely. Some pilots have a massive chip on their shoulder/inferiority complex. I earn more than my wife does, and she is a doctor. Does that mean that I'm better trained, or somehow more important? No. It's just a paycheck. But to the guy who says that doctors don't compare themselves to the average citizen, sure they do. Absolutely, you must if you want to keep perspective about life.

But people on here don't want perspective. They want to inflate their egos, and feel "special."

surreal1221
07-29-2018, 12:58 PM
But people on here don't want perspective. They want to inflate their egos, and feel "special."

It is the internet. And, this is, APC. And well, even at JetBlue we have some guys who cant stop themselves from drooling over themselves and peacocking their whole lives.

Bluedriver
07-29-2018, 03:28 PM
It is the internet. And, this is, APC. And well, even at JetBlue we have some guys who cant stop themselves from drooling over themselves and peacocking their whole lives.

This is JB. We have twice as many who have their tales between their girl parts and *expect* to make less than everyone else.

Mattio
07-29-2018, 08:46 PM
Years and years. Years and years?! Damn son, how many extra sim sessions did you need?! I just did some finger math and came to the sum of 14 months of my life have been spent in actual training. But that's only with PPL, INST, COMM, ATP, 5 types, countless recurrents/ PC's/PT's, ground school, CBT's, etc... But years and years? At the absolute minimum that implies 4 years. WOW! I mean...wow. I'd figuratively give both testicles to fly with you. AND, you "know how to fly 121"?!

I just wanna say congrats to all the B6 folks on the passing of your TA. You folks deserved it! And for the 99.87% of you that have to fly with the 5 guys that took the time to educate me on how much harder their job is-how much more skill they truly possessed than Juan the drywaller (and were fu%&ing serious about it), good luck I guess.

First, I said years and years of training AND hands-on experience... If you're going to quote me but leave off part of the sentence, it should be a non-starter but I'll humor you... Nobody gets to the majors in 14 months from their intro flight. If you took all the time any professional spent in actual training and don't include the study time, the hands-on experience and all the in-between time then it would come down to a small amount of time. Nice trickery. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullcrap." - Your motto, Brickhut?

Mattio
07-29-2018, 08:55 PM
The years spent instructing or flying 135 while adding ratings are like a graduate degree in my eyes. When I started out, most or all the majors required a 4-year degree. So you have a 4-year degree, all the flight training, building hours, regional then majors for the majority of folks. Military guys definitely earned their keep too. It was competitive and even your college grades mattered to the airlines not too far back. There's a reason beyond economics that there's a shortage of pilots right now and that goes beyond the requirements of getting to this point and includes the requirements of staying at this point. I'm getting the feeling that you're not even in aviation, Brickhut and just came on here to demean people.

jtrain609
07-29-2018, 10:04 PM
The years spent instructing or flying 135 while adding ratings are like a graduate degree in my eyes. When I started out, most or all the majors required a 4-year degree. So you have a 4-year degree, all the flight training, building hours, regional then majors for the majority of folks. Military guys definitely earned their keep too. It was competitive and even your college grades mattered to the airlines not too far back. There's a reason beyond economics that there's a shortage of pilots right now and that goes beyond the requirements of getting to this point and includes the requirements of staying at this point. I'm getting the feeling that you're not even in aviation, Brickhut and just came on here to demean people.

You wouldn't think that if you actually had a graduate degree.

PasserOGas
07-29-2018, 10:36 PM
You wouldn't think that if you actually had a graduate degree.

No, it's more useful than most graduate degrees. I have a pointless masters and my flying experience is more in depth and valuable.