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View Full Version : Future jobs vs current jobs


PRS Guitars
07-27-2018, 03:03 PM
Iím trying to wrap my brain around the APAís mentality of restricting pilots already on property to protect (or cause if you will) more future jobs. Examples include our inability to double dip after having a trip bought, IMAX, not being allowed to fly during vacation, etc. what is the purpose of this while we are hiring 6 to 900 a year? I completely get it if we arenít hiring or have furloughed pilots.

Guys here preach about getting W2ís like SWA and DAL, but I donít think we can earn like SWA with this mentality. And with my limited understanding of Deltaís ďrolling thunderĒ, I donít think that would fly here either. Maybe thatís why most here just care about pay rates, they donít understand the mechanisms by which other airline pilots bolster their income...itís not just profit sharing guys.

Also, we lose leverage by already restricting ourselves. We canít exactly reduce our level of flying when itís already low.

What am I missing? Thoughts?


galaxy flyer
07-27-2018, 03:13 PM
Probably stuck in the era of line bids, max time per month and thatís your pay. Any idea how many jobs all these premium pay deals and rules cost? Hint: itís a lot.

GF

EMBFlyer
07-27-2018, 03:14 PM
APA has ALWAYS been focuses on the number of jobs vs THE JOB.


RhinoBallAuto
07-27-2018, 03:30 PM
APA has ALWAYS been focuses on the number of jobs vs THE JOB.

> number of jobs
means
> number of dues payers

Premium pay for fewer pilots means less dues?

Just a guess....

PRS Guitars
07-27-2018, 03:40 PM
APA has ALWAYS been focuses on the number of jobs vs THE JOB.

Yeah, and I think it needs to change, Iím relatively new to the industry and watching friends at other airlines, starting to realize how much this hampers us. Iím not sure the masses realize this as they say ďletís just get Deltaís contractĒ.

mainlineAF
07-27-2018, 04:44 PM
Yeah, and I think it needs to change, Iím relatively new to the industry and watching friends at other airlines, starting to realize how much this hampers us. Iím not sure the masses realize this as they say ďletís just get Deltaís contractĒ.



I like the way our contract is written. Everything is chugging along good right now but what about during the next downturn? If we ever furlough again Iím going to guess the most junior guy not furloughed is going to be glad our contract requires more pilots.

I get the other side of the argument. But donít be fooled, most of those DL/SW guys who are making it rain are spending a lot of days at work. So many of our guys arenít about that life.

Iíll gladly go fly 15-16 days a month for 80-90 credit hours.

meyers9163
07-27-2018, 04:48 PM
Iím sorry if you want to fly fly. Let some one else have their trip bought and stay home and you can fly. Thereís many here who would love their trips bought and probably are more senior. Why should you get to double dip when in reality someone seniors out flying who might have preferred their trip bought and they get to stay at home.

Vacation is needed. Sorry again Iíll disagree. If you donít want it float it. APA allows you to do that. Fly your ass off and get paid in the beginning of the next year. Vacation hasnít been like it was until recently for many of the big three. So the fact a second year pilot gets 3 weeks letís not throw that away and try to fly on the days we earned off.

This why can we do it while we are hiring arguement is rather weak too. See we donít always hire and might not. So letís not start bad habits and then require fewer pilots. Delta making more money has nothing to do with any of the above. If you want both delta and southwest are hiring. Problem is we havenít had s section 6 in decades. Letís get to that before you offer up rather weak suggestions. More pilots under you is indeed a great thing. Letís not encourage less so you can apparently endulge is further greed as apparently itís hard to live off what we make?

Frip
07-27-2018, 04:48 PM
It's a balancing act

How many jobs is it ok to trade in for the ability to fly to FAR, double dip, etc.?

And... How many in each category? How many FO's should remain FO's vs. upgrading? How many Group 2 pilots should remain Group 2 rather than move to Group 4?

10%?, 20%?

More?

fwiw... My personal opinion is that the company's ability to schedule the pilot should be limited to something like the traditinal 75-78 hour range, and individual pilots should be able to pick up more as desired - at Premium rates only.

Exactly how and through what mechanisms needs a thorough "best practices" review and study and NIH needs a swift kick in the 'nads.

Figure the odds...

PRS Guitars
07-27-2018, 06:16 PM
Iím sorry if you want to fly fly. Let some one else have their trip bought and stay home and you can fly. Thereís many here who would love their trips bought and probably are more senior. Why should you get to double dip when in reality someone seniors out flying who might have preferred their trip bought and they get to stay at home.

Vacation is needed. Sorry again Iíll disagree. If you donít want it float it. APA allows you to do that. Fly your ass off and get paid in the beginning of the next year. Vacation hasnít been like it was until recently for many of the big three. So the fact a second year pilot gets 3 weeks letís not throw that away and try to fly on the days we earned off.

This why can we do it while we are hiring arguement is rather weak too. See we donít always hire and might not. So letís not start bad habits and then require fewer pilots. Delta making more money has nothing to do with any of the above. If you want both delta and southwest are hiring. Problem is we havenít had s section 6 in decades. Letís get to that before you offer up rather weak suggestions. More pilots under you is indeed a great thing. Letís not encourage less so you can apparently endulge is further greed as apparently itís hard to live off what we make?

Thatís why I asked. No need to be an ******* about it and condescending. You couldíve answered civilly like the others. GFY...

meyers9163
07-27-2018, 06:45 PM
Thatís why I asked. No need to be an ******* about it and condescending. You couldíve answered civilly like the others. GFY...

No actually itís a short sightedness that you wonít forget now hopefully with my response. Keeping it classy with your acronyms though.

Fuel prices go crazy. We park planes or something happens that we donít control we donít need to wish we had pilots. Let alone during a downturn pilots still employed doing what you proposed then would also be contractual and those still on property make money and double dip etc while others have nothing....

This question amazes me it was even brought up..... Being new to 121 or not. Shouldnít exactly be shocking why those all are very bad things to want to imply we should allow and keep us behind Delta.... Bankruptcy contracts and out dated contracts are why we are far behind, along with APAs lack of negotiating ever for a leading contract.

flyinawa
07-28-2018, 12:27 AM
Iím with PRS Guitars on this. Stop worrying about the people who donít work here and start focusing on the interests of those who do.

meyers9163
07-28-2018, 04:01 AM
Iím with PRS Guitars on this. Stop worrying about the people who donít work here and start focusing on the interests of those who do.

Hmmm sorry but that is worrying and protecting current pilots. Again lack of foresight on your part is amazing.

There are places you can go fly all you want. Let us know and we can direct you all that way. Until then we worry about our pilots, our jobs and our future pilots and their jobs.

Whatís next making reserve worse? Lowering new hire pay? Give more scope away? This mindset is absolutely discouraging as the industry still is climbing out of the hurt of 9/11....

But yes letís require fewer pilot, fewer jobs, and when a hiccup happens in the industry weíd need even fewer pilots. Smart thinking.....

mainlineAF
07-28-2018, 04:57 AM
Hmmm sorry but that is worrying and protecting current pilots. Again lack of foresight on your part is amazing.



There are places you can go fly all you want. Let us know and we can direct you all that way. Until then we worry about our pilots, our jobs and our future pilots and their jobs.



Whatís next making reserve worse? Lowering new hire pay? Give more scope away? This mindset is absolutely discouraging as the industry still is climbing out of the hurt of 9/11....



But yes letís require fewer pilot, fewer jobs, and when a hiccup happens in the industry weíd need even fewer pilots. Smart thinking.....



I agree with you but you suck at arguing your point. No need to be so adversarial.

mainlineAF
07-28-2018, 04:58 AM
Iím with PRS Guitars on this. Stop worrying about the people who donít work here and start focusing on the interests of those who do.



Itís not just about future pilots. Itís about getting a line faster, getting your first upgrade faster, holding g4 captain faster, etc.

Dobbs18
07-28-2018, 05:05 AM
Delta had 14,508 on their Feb 2018 seniority list, we had 14,617 on our most recent list...those green slip, double dip rules at Delta donít appear to be costing them many pilot positions. I know there is more to it than that but we are almost dead even.

Dobbs18
07-28-2018, 05:07 AM
Itís not just about future pilots. Itís about getting a line faster, getting your first upgrade faster, holding g4 captain faster, etc.

Delta is beating us in all those categories too....right now anyways.

mainlineAF
07-28-2018, 05:09 AM
Delta is beating us in all those categories too....right now anyways.



They also have different bases, fleets, management philosophy, work rules, etc. Itís not a valid comparison at all.

Put it this way. If our contact allowed double dipping, flying over vacation etc, we would be even further behind DL in those respects.

Covfefe
07-28-2018, 05:09 AM
I agree with you but you suck at arguing your point. No need to be so adversarial.


Dbags gonna dbag.....

ORDinary
07-28-2018, 06:17 AM
It's a balancing act

How many jobs is it ok to trade in for the ability to fly to FAR, double dip, etc.?

And... How many in each category? How many FO's should remain FO's vs. upgrading? How many Group 2 pilots should remain Group 2 rather than move to Group 4?

10%?, 20%?

More?

fwiw... My personal opinion is that the company's ability to schedule the pilot should be limited to something like the traditinal 75-78 hour range, and individual pilots should be able to pick up more as desired - at Premium rates only.

Exactly how and through what mechanisms needs a thorough "best practices" review and study and NIH needs a swift kick in the 'nads.

Figure the odds...

Not sure if this has ever been tried or how (or if) it would work, but what if we negotiated a separate set of rules that take effect when the company announced furloughs? Basically writing down the unwritten rules of not picking up OT when pilots are furloughed. Or in other words, a set of work rules for when times are good, and then another set that maximizes jobs when they are not, with some kind of defined trigger. I guess probably the company wouldn't like that.

Frip
07-28-2018, 06:33 AM
Not sure if this has ever been tried or how (or if) it would work, but what if we negotiated a separate set of rules that take effect when the company announced furloughs? Basically writing down the unwritten rules of not picking up OT when pilots are furloughed. Or in other words, a set of work rules for when times are good, and then another set that maximizes jobs when they are not, with some kind of defined trigger. I guess probably the company wouldn't like that.


You obviously weren't here between 2001-2012

AA pilots don't roll that way.

3,000+ furloughed and the majority still flying to max because it was their right to.

Even doing so against clear direction from APA

ORDinary
07-28-2018, 06:35 AM
You obviously weren't here between 2001-2012

AA pilots don't roll that way.

3,000+ furloughed and the majority still flying to max because it was their right to.

Even doing so against clear direction from APA

Ha, no I wasn't. That sucks.

jcountry
07-28-2018, 06:42 AM
I agree that the contract is written to maximize the # of jobs, but the lack of work rules more than negates that.

The fact that line holders can now be rescheduled as many times as possible, and the overall disaster that we call a scheduling system really puts a wrench in stuff. Our pilots are ďefficientedĒ to the max.

Delta has more active pilots, but we fly more hours and more planes.

tomgoodman
07-28-2018, 06:53 AM
Stop worrying about the people who donít work here and start focusing on the interests of those who do.

In the past, that kind of thinking has led to B-scales and disunity. :(

RyanP
07-28-2018, 07:26 AM
I want to work less, not more. Had enough of that life at the regionals. More pilots = better QOL. Less pilots = slave camp.

MUCH more concerned with things like fixing the scheduling issues we already have. Making them pay big $$$ penalties for reassignments/extensions (reserves included). Protecting days off with severe $$$ penalties plus return days (reserves included). Increasing MIN days off to 15 LINE/RSV. Max 2 man FDP reduced to 12.5 scheduled/14 actual with big $$$ penalties to voluntarily extend like UAL has. Tightening up scope, reduced RJ count at regionals, Premium for holiday/redeye flying. 321/737MAX to GIII scale, DAL profit sharing match etc etc..

DAL pilot puts on slippers and walks to mailbox in underwear, opens profit sharing check for 45K then takes boat to the lake.
AA pilot works like dog all year to max out pay, never home, loses days off, skips vacations and everything he can possibly do to get extra 40k + 3K profit sharing check.

Which of the 2 has the correct Airline Pilot mentality? We need to focus on getting more for what we ALREADY do, not do more for more. That is incorrect logic. Lol

Laker24
07-28-2018, 08:49 AM
Actually according to the latest contract comparison Delta has 14,600 active pilots vs 14,599 active pilots at AA...The kicker is that Delta has about 70 fewer aircraft. Clearly something much bigger is driving jobs. Iím guessing itís crew schedulingís ability to use 10,000+ line holders as ready reserves. We go out on a pairing as a line holder not knowing where we will fly or even what day we will get home. If AA wanted to drive more jobs they could start by fixing our bottom of the barell scheduling rules.

Laker24
07-28-2018, 08:51 AM
I want to work less, not more. Had enough of that life at the regionals. More pilots = better QOL. Less pilots = slave camp.

MUCH more concerned with things like fixing the scheduling issues we already have. Making them pay big $$$ penalties for reassignments/extensions (reserves included). Protecting days off with severe $$$ penalties plus return days (reserves included). Increasing MIN days off to 15 LINE/RSV. Max 2 man FDP reduced to 12.5 scheduled/14 actual with big $$$ penalties to voluntarily extend like UAL has. Tightening up scope, reduced RJ count at regionals, Premium for holiday/redeye flying. 321/737MAX to GIII scale, DAL profit sharing match etc etc..

DAL pilot puts on slippers and walks to mailbox in underwear, opens profit sharing check for 45K then takes boat to the lake.
AA pilot works like dog all year to max out pay, never home, loses days off, skips vacations and everything he can possibly do to get extra 40k + 3K profit sharing check.

Which of the 2 has the correct Airline Pilot mentality? We need to focus on getting more for what we ALREADY do, not do more for more. That is incorrect logic. Lol

You nailed it! I hope you are sending soundoffs and completing contract surveys. The only thing I would add is we need to protect scope on Group 4 acft as well. These JV agreements could result in much fewer widebody jobs. Itís easy to cancel orders. Parker could use our 321s to feed Qantas and LATAM 787s and 380s. Heís going to be looking for anyway possible to shave costs now that we are solidly in 3rd place in terms of earnings performance.

m78fl370
07-28-2018, 10:00 AM
I want to work less, not more. Had enough of that life at the regionals. More pilots = better QOL. Less pilots = slave camp.

MUCH more concerned with things like fixing the scheduling issues we already have. Making them pay big $$$ penalties for reassignments/extensions (reserves included). Protecting days off with severe $$$ penalties plus return days (reserves included). Increasing MIN days off to 15 LINE/RSV. Max 2 man FDP reduced to 12.5 scheduled/14 actual with big $$$ penalties to voluntarily extend like UAL has. Tightening up scope, reduced RJ count at regionals, Premium for holiday/redeye flying. 321/737MAX to GIII scale, DAL profit sharing match etc etc..

DAL pilot puts on slippers and walks to mailbox in underwear, opens profit sharing check for 45K then takes boat to the lake.
AA pilot works like dog all year to max out pay, never home, loses days off, skips vacations and everything he can possibly do to get extra 40k + 3K profit sharing check.

Which of the 2 has the correct Airline Pilot mentality? We need to focus on getting more for what we ALREADY do, not do more for more. That is incorrect logic. Lol

This!!!! A million times this!

Dobbs18
07-28-2018, 10:04 AM
Actually according to the latest contract comparison Delta has 14,600 active pilots vs 14,599 active pilots at AA...The kicker is that Delta has about 70 fewer aircraft. Clearly something much bigger is driving jobs. Iím guessing itís crew schedulingís ability to use 10,000+ line holders as ready reserves. We go out on a pairing as a line holder not knowing where we will fly or even what day we will get home. If AA wanted to drive more jobs they could start by fixing our bottom of the barell scheduling rules.

This is what I was trying to say, bc it appears Deltaís make money rules are not really costing them pilot jobs when you look at the pilot to aircraft numbers...their management, however, probably is comfortable with staffing their aircraft at a high level than ours for reliability.

Al Czervik
07-28-2018, 10:48 AM
The fact that someone is arguing for having more jobs so we’ll have a bigger buffer during a furlough is beyond ludicrous. The ONLY thing that will fix the culture and the contract is retirements.

EMBFlyer
07-28-2018, 03:17 PM
You obviously weren't here between 2001-2012

AA pilots don't roll that way.

3,000+ furloughed and the majority still flying to max because it was their right to.

Even doing so against clear direction from APA

Color me surprised...

Name User
07-28-2018, 03:20 PM
That’s why I asked. No need to be an ******* about it and condescending. You could’ve answered civilly like the others. GFY...

His tone is pretty consistent on CnR too. His post about combining I and D divisions was pretty hilarious...the LAA guys spanked him pretty hard. I stopped reading it after a while but noticed he never came back in it.

Name User
07-28-2018, 03:27 PM
Actually according to the latest contract comparison Delta has 14,600 active pilots vs 14,599 active pilots at AA...The kicker is that Delta has about 70 fewer aircraft. Clearly something much bigger is driving jobs. Iím guessing itís crew schedulingís ability to use 10,000+ line holders as ready reserves. We go out on a pairing as a line holder not knowing where we will fly or even what day we will get home. If AA wanted to drive more jobs they could start by fixing our bottom of the barell scheduling rules.

Delta also has a higher number of fleets and bases plus don't forget they are also offering reduced line flying over SUMMER of all times.

Personally I'd look for their numbers to slim down too as profits start to get squeezed.

Al Czervik
07-28-2018, 03:33 PM
Color me surprised...

Exactly......

flyinawa
07-28-2018, 04:39 PM
Dbags gonna dbag.....

This is my new favorite saying ever.

In the past, that kind of thinking has led to B-scales and disunity. :(

I respect what youíre suggesting but Iím not implying that we hose the new guys. Iím suggesting focusing on current employees and giving the most flexibility possible. When your on property, we ALL fight for you, your job, and your interests...regardless of seniority. The opposite of B-scale!

The fact that someone is arguing for having more jobs so weíll have a bigger buffer during a furlough is beyond ludicrous. The ONLY thing that will fix the culture and the contract is retirements.

This goes with my previous statement. Hiring guys for furlough fodder is preposterous. Iíd rather have all active pilots agree to hour caps during times of economic turndown than furlough. If the company buys my trip for training, why canít I double dip those work dates? Heck, then I could unload something else in the month I donít want and make the same original pay...or make extra! This is whatís going on at Delta and United and theyíre STILL kicking our butts on other work rules and pay. Iím not suggesting things to help only SENIOR pilots, look for opportunities that can benefit everyone.

full of luv
07-28-2018, 06:15 PM
Delta also has a higher number of fleets and bases plus don't forget they are also offering reduced line flying over SUMMER of all times.

Personally I'd look for their numbers to slim down too as profits start to get squeezed.

Two points for clarification:
1. At DAL you canít fly over or even float your vacation. You have to take it as bud or move it within your bid month with manning permitting during pbs run.

2 They were offering up to 550 pilots across the system 40 hours of pay to do NOTHING in August, essentially a paid LOA for a month. Only about 258 pilots took the offer. Union just suspended the program because they only agree to that deal if the pay offer is 50 hours like it was during pre-bk days for when these paid LOAs were first offered.

ALF659
07-29-2018, 11:03 AM
Actually according to the latest contract comparison Delta has 14,600 active pilots vs 14,599 active pilots at AA...The kicker is that Delta has about 70 fewer aircraft. Clearly something much bigger is driving jobs. Iím guessing itís crew schedulingís ability to use 10,000+ line holders as ready reserves. We go out on a pairing as a line holder not knowing where we will fly or even what day we will get home. If AA wanted to drive more jobs they could start by fixing our bottom of the barell scheduling rules.

If you haven't heard, DAL has stopped hiring and indoc for a few months because they admitted they have too many active pilots. They over-hired during the last few years trying to get as many highly qualified pilots as they could and prevent them from getting hired elsewhere. Lots of pilots in several different bid status were offered to take July and or August off for 25 hours pay and zero chance for any other flying. Any they had quite a few takers.

DarinFred
07-29-2018, 01:06 PM
Thatís called foresight...

A330FoodCritic
07-30-2018, 08:23 AM
Iím sorry if you want to fly fly. Let some one else have their trip bought and stay home and you can fly. Thereís many here who would love their trips bought and probably are more senior. Why should you get to double dip when in reality someone seniors out flying who might have preferred their trip bought and they get to stay at home.

Vacation is needed. Sorry again Iíll disagree. If you donít want it float it. APA allows you to do that. Fly your ass off and get paid in the beginning of the next year. Vacation hasnít been like it was until recently for many of the big three. So the fact a second year pilot gets 3 weeks letís not throw that away and try to fly on the days we earned off.

This why can we do it while we are hiring arguement is rather weak too. See we donít always hire and might not. So letís not start bad habits and then require fewer pilots. Delta making more money has nothing to do with any of the above. If you want both delta and southwest are hiring. Problem is we havenít had s section 6 in decades. Letís get to that before you offer up rather weak suggestions. More pilots under you is indeed a great thing. Letís not encourage less so you can apparently endulge is further greed as apparently itís hard to live off what we make?

Are you on the BOD?

You seem clueless.

ipdanno
08-07-2018, 10:19 AM
...... If we ever furlough again Iím going to guess the most junior guy not furloughed is going to be glad our contract requires more pilots.

I get the other side of the argument. But donít be fooled, most of those DL/SW guys who are making it rain are spending a lot of days at work. So many of our guys arenít about that life.

Iíll gladly go fly 15-16 days a month for 80-90 credit hours.

For Sept, average off for SWA is about 17.5 days, or avg 'on' of 12.5 days. Anything above that is extra, and IF you can get premium, all the better. It's not too hard to make extra without breaking your back. Mind you, there are those who work MUCH more than I care to, because for me, the extra 'scratch' isn't worth the contusion from the wife's frying pan for being gone more.

Our contract has traditionally incentivized fewer pilots per acft working more than bid awarded. One result when the company reduces flying is just less flying per pilot, versus less pilots actively employed. For our group, the former outweighs the later.

GHOST
08-07-2018, 12:00 PM
For Sept, average off for SWA is about 17.5 days, or avg 'on' of 12.5 days. Anything above that is extra, and IF you can get premium, all the better. It's not too hard to make extra without breaking your back. Mind you, there are those who work MUCH more than I care to, because for me, the extra 'scratch' isn't worth the contusion from the wife's frying pan for being gone more.

Our contract has traditionally incentivized fewer pilots per acft working more than bid awarded. One result when the company reduces flying is just less flying per pilot, versus less pilots actively employed. For our group, the former outweighs the later.

A good friend of mine and I were hired the same year at our respective carriers. Like many, I was under the impression that SW pilots made more than American Airline's pilots for similar equipment (737/A320F). After comparing our schedules, it's clear that SW pilots work harder than American pilots. On an average, I fly 2 legs per day while my SW counterpart works 3-4 legs per day. Our monthly paychecks are similar, however he averages an additional day off per month than I do.

Interesting to note, at 5 year length of service my SW counterpart will remain on the 737 for the duration of his career. At American, I am able to hold a line on the 75/76 with similar days off and making more money per month (the commute keeps me on the Airbus fleet). SW is a great company with great flexibility, however I wouldn't trade my position (and seniority number) at American for a SW spot. Each airline has their pros and cons, choose what works best for you and your family.

Saabs
08-07-2018, 12:07 PM
A good friend of mine and I were hired the same year at our respective carriers. Like many, I was under the impression that SW pilots made more than American Airline's pilots for similar equipment (737/A320F). After comparing our schedules, it's clear that SW pilots work harder than American pilots. On an average, I fly 2 legs per day while my SW counterpart works 3-4 legs per day. Our monthly paychecks are similar, however he averages an additional day off per month than I do.

Interesting to note, at 5 year length of service my SW counterpart will remain on the 737 for the duration of his career. At American, I am able to hold a line on the 75/76 with similar days off and making more money per month (the commute keeps me on the Airbus fleet). SW is a great company with great flexibility, however I wouldn't trade my position (and seniority number) at American for a SW spot. Each airline has their pros and cons, choose what works best for you and your family.

Youíre free to tell yourself that they work harder. They get more days off so to me thatís working less. I want to fly my butt off at work and have more days off.

GHOST
08-07-2018, 12:18 PM
Youíre free to tell yourself that they work harder. They get more days off so to me thatís working less. I want to fly my butt off at work and have more days off.

Saabs,

No shade, I'm sure you have your examples as well. I don't believe what I read on the forums. I'm simply illustrating an example from a good friend. I don't know your bid status, but in my base on 320 I'm averaging 15-16 days off/month with TTS/TTOT. Yes we have work to do come contract 2020. I stand by my statement and as of now, I'm very content with my days off, paycheck, and QOL. With 30+ years left, I'll chose AA over SW any day.

Hotel Pen
08-07-2018, 04:34 PM
Youíre free to tell yourself that they work harder. They get more days off so to me thatís working less. I want to fly my butt off at work and have more days off.


Saabs, I'd rather work an extra day or two a month and not have ruthlessly long soul crushing days at work. Not saying one outlook is better than the other, but just that there are a lot of differing opinions on this. The one thing we could all agree on is that our contract is way behind our peers and that a better contract would benefit all of us.



Scheduling and our contract and this summer weather is taking the satisfaction out of this job for me at least.


Hopefully this doesn't continue.

Saabs
08-07-2018, 05:13 PM
Saabs,

No shade, I'm sure you have your examples as well. I don't believe what I read on the forums. I'm simply illustrating an example from a good friend. I don't know your bid status, but in my base on 320 I'm averaging 15-16 days off/month with TTS/TTOT. Yes we have work to do come contract 2020. I stand by my statement and as of now, I'm very content with my days off, paycheck, and QOL. With 30+ years left, I'll chose AA over SW any day.
None taken and ditto.

My swa buddies get 3 three days and 1 four day on average. Here junior guys get 10-14 days off a month.

I try to bid for 18-20 hour 3 days as Iím here for the days off and not long layovers or easy schedules. I want to be at home with my family. If we got better rigs (ACD should help out the junior) or work rules Iíd be fine if I could get 18 days off a month with less work while on duty.

Saabs
08-07-2018, 05:14 PM
Saabs, I'd rather work an extra day or two a month and not have ruthlessly long soul crushing days at work. Not saying one outlook is better than the other, but just that there are a lot of differing opinions on this. The one thing we could all agree on is that our contract is way behind our peers and that a better contract would benefit all of us.



Scheduling and our contract and this summer weather is taking the satisfaction out of this job for me at least.


Hopefully this doesn't continue.

To each their own. My family is more important to me than an easier schedule and being away an extra day or two.

RyanP
08-08-2018, 05:25 AM
To each their own. My family is more important to me than an easier schedule and being away an extra day or two.

Same, zero desire to sit around wasting time away from home/family on unproductive trips with low days off.

An extra 2 days a month gone is 2 years of your life wasted over a 30 yr career. Or over 3 weeks extra vacation per year. An extra day off every other week is a HUGE deal to most people.

Route66
08-08-2018, 08:17 AM
To each their own. My family is more important to me than an easier schedule and being away an extra day or two.

Shouldnít that be a choice though? I mean if all my kids are out and I just want to work more for more pay shouldnít I be the one to make that choice? I fly with hires from 3-5 years mostly. Theyíre raising young families. Thatís great, and they really want to spend more time with their family....as they should. However, they ALSO donít want to get involved in union short of voting.

Donít want to volunteer for any union duties at all. They know pbs isnít great. They know theyíre stuck with their trips mostly. Because the company has most of the control over whatís ďredĒ.

Look, I can go on and on, but from I hear (and maybe theyíre just placating me) but having been here for over thirty years I can discern that they got the brass ring now and content with what they have and in ANY case there isnít anything they can do about it anyway.

Arado 234
08-08-2018, 01:57 PM
Iím trying to wrap my brain around the APAís mentality of restricting pilots already on property to protect (or cause if you will) more future jobs. Examples include our inability to double dip after having a trip bought, IMAX, not being allowed to fly during vacation, etc. what is the purpose of this while we are hiring 6 to 900 a year? I completely get it if we arenít hiring or have furloughed pilots.

Guys here preach about getting W2ís like SWA and DAL, but I donít think we can earn like SWA with this mentality. And with my limited understanding of Deltaís ďrolling thunderĒ, I donít think that would fly here either. Maybe thatís why most here just care about pay rates, they donít understand the mechanisms by which other airline pilots bolster their income...itís not just profit sharing guys.

Also, we lose leverage by already restricting ourselves. We canít exactly reduce our level of flying when itís already low.

What am I missing? Thoughts?

What about the inability to pick up a drop from a different base? Never understood why.

Name User
08-09-2018, 05:19 AM
What about the inability to pick up a drop from a different base? Never understood why.

They are worried about seniority.

Example a NY based line holder could drop NY trips and pick up DFW trips. They view this as not fair to the guy senior to that person on reserve in DFW.

Yeah, I know.

Kebert Xela
08-09-2018, 09:21 AM
They are worried about seniority.

Example a NY based line holder could drop NY trips and pick up DFW trips. They view this as not fair to the guy senior to that person on reserve in DFW.

Yeah, I know.

Can you explain why that's seen as a negative that we can't do that? I'm a line holder in NY and would love to pick up out of DFW. I guess I do see that as unfair to the DFW guy, except for the fact he could sit at home without having to pick up (I get that's good) but if he did want to proffer wouldn't he be left with some real crappy options since the "better" trips in open time would be sucked up by guys like me?

Wouldn't that cause a waterfall of the reserve guys in NY getting hammered with the shortfall of everyone dropping and picking up out of base? Of course that could help complete consolidation for the new guys, lol.

If I were able to drop and pick up out of base it would definitely help me out, but I kinda see how that may be unfair to someone who is senior to me at that base. Unless I am looking at it all wrong, which I'm never known to do:D

Saabs
08-09-2018, 09:43 AM
How do people drop these trips? Weekday turns, two days, three days, all red. I keep hearing about this scenario but am confused as to how they drop trips????

PRS Guitars
08-09-2018, 11:32 AM
How do people drop these trips? Weekday turns, two days, three days, all red. I keep hearing about this scenario but am confused as to how they drop trips????

Iíve had some success with dropping. I post them in TTOT (lite Sabre autodrop) and TTS. Iíve had them drop from both systems. Iíve oteiced that probably 90% of trips posted to drop are in TTOT are not posted on ballots in TTS. Iím not sure why one wouldnít do both. If everyone used both systems there would be more schedule churn.

Saabs
08-09-2018, 11:39 AM
Iíve had some success with dropping. I post them in TTOT (lite Sabre autodrop) and TTS. Iíve had them drop from both systems. Iíve oteiced that probably 90% of trips posted to drop are in TTOT are not posted on ballots in TTS. Iím not sure why one wouldnít do both. If everyone used both systems there would be more schedule churn.
I use both as well. What Iím getting at is people kept saying only 1 and 2 day trips get dropped. I have them and canít drop them.

Arado 234
08-09-2018, 06:42 PM
They are worried about seniority.

Example a NY based line holder could drop NY trips and pick up DFW trips. They view this as not fair to the guy senior to that person on reserve in DFW.

Yeah, I know.

What about cs calling and asking that senior DFW pilot first and then awarding it to the out of base guy that wants to fly? If someone wants to drop his or her trips and someone is willing to fly the trip... I guess it makes sense, that's why it's not happening.

Edit: I must be tired, can a reserve pilot pick up a drop request?

SilverandSore
08-10-2018, 02:39 AM
DAL pilot puts on slippers and walks to mailbox in underwear, opens profit sharing check for 45K then takes boat to the lake.
AA pilot works like dog all year to max out pay, never home, loses days off, skips vacations and everything he can possibly do to get extra...

Youíre doing it all wrong. None of what you describe applies to this AA pilot. The boat is out front ready to go!

Covfefe
08-10-2018, 03:57 AM
Edit: I must be tired, can a reserve pilot pick up a drop request?

No. The only thing they can do is accept OG or PM when offered.

aa73
08-10-2018, 05:11 AM
How do people drop these trips? Weekday turns, two days, three days, all red. I keep hearing about this scenario but am confused as to how they drop trips????

The trick (and it’s not well known) is to be available when TTOT opens on the 24th. You have about an hour window from the start of TTOT when the red/green lights are confused and don’t quite catch up with multitudes of trades. You start with your first trip of the month and just do the first trade that pops up.. then check HISEQ... most of the time the new trip will be green... bam, drop it uncredited. If it’s not green then trade it for another one, then HISEQ again until you find a green one. Sometimes you have to do 3 or 4 trades until you find one that’s green. Go to your next trip and rinse & repeat. Like I said, this only works within the first hour of TTOT...after that the lights catch up and it’s game over.

You gotta be a fast typer and I usually had two devices running TASC SABRE in case one of them got bogged down (which usually happens.)

Sometimes you find a trip that stays green the entire hour and you can cycle (trade) all of your trips through that one trip and keep dropping it back into open time. Usually it’s a turn.

I’ve dropped my entire month using this technique, several months in a row... and that was with being at the 90th percentile in my base with all trips being red initially.

Cheddar
08-10-2018, 05:13 AM
Edit: I must be tired, can a reserve pilot pick up a drop request?


No, but itís actually a good idea. If reserves could pick up drop requests or OT that work for them on days off that obviously helps the company.

The problem is we are so incredibly understaffed that we donít have the resources to absorb the staffing hit. That doesnít mean you shouldnít submit it to the contract suggestion email!



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sherpster
08-10-2018, 05:18 AM
The trick (and itís not well known) is to be available when TTOT opens on the 24th. You have about an hour window from the start of TTOT when the red/green lights are confused and donít quite catch up with multitudes of trades. You start with your first trip of the month and just do the first trade that pops up.. then check HISEQ... most of the time the new trip will be green... bam, drop it uncredited. If itís not green then trade it for another one, then HISEQ again until you find a green one. Sometimes you have to do 3 or 4 trades until you find one thatís green. Go to your next trip and rinse & repeat. Like I said, this only works within the first hour of TTOT...after that the lights catch up and itís game over.

You gotta be a fast typer and I usually had two devices running TASC SABRE in case one of them got bogged down (which usually happens.)

Sometimes you find a trip that stays green the entire hour and you can cycle (trade) all of your trips through that one trip and keep dropping it back into open time. Usually itís a turn.

Iíve dropped my entire month using this technique, several months in a row... and that was with being at the 90th percentile in my base with all trips being red initially.

Awesome! Now that i know this please delete! Thanks

Cheddar
08-10-2018, 05:22 AM
The trick (and itís not well known) is to be available when TTOT opens on the 24th. You have about an hour window from the start of TTOT when the red/green lights are confused and donít quite catch up with multitudes of trades. You start with your first trip of the month and just do the first trade that pops up.. then check HISEQ... most of the time the new trip will be green... bam, drop it uncredited. If itís not green then trade it for another one, then HISEQ again until you find a green one. Sometimes you have to do 3 or 4 trades until you find one thatís green. Go to your next trip and rinse & repeat. Like I said, this only works within the first hour of TTOT...after that the lights catch up and itís game over.

You gotta be a fast typer and I usually had two devices running TASC SABRE in case one of them got bogged down (which usually happens.)

Sometimes you find a trip that stays green the entire hour and you can cycle (trade) all of your trips through that one trip and keep dropping it back into open time. Usually itís a turn.

Iíve dropped my entire month using this technique, several months in a row... and that was with being at the 90th percentile in my base with all trips being red initially.



I wonít be a lineholder for awhile again, but this is absolutely how to do it. The only time I flew a trip I didnít want was by taking something Ďbadí from a senior FO who gave me a lot of other Ďgoodí stuff at the last minute to keep the turn spigot on.

Whatís even better is getting 3-5 guys in your bid status and continuously trade between yourselves until the trip goes green. Then *poof* you are now free to move about your schedule!

Itís not for the faint hearted. But trip trade groups are almost essential with the restrictions this company has on pilot QWL.

[emoji848] If I ever get displaced back to group 2, yíall forget what I just said!!!


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Dobbs18
08-10-2018, 08:28 AM
The trick (and itís not well known).

SERIOUSLY, delete this!

PRS Guitars
08-10-2018, 11:14 AM
SERIOUSLY, delete this!

I think the more people participating makes this work better, more trips turn green...aa73 correct me if Iím wrong on that.

I actually have permanent reminders on my phone of TTOT opening. I then sit in front of 2 computers and my iPad. In my current bid status though, itís 6 to 9 minutes of actual movement and then watching paint dry.

450knotOffice
08-10-2018, 12:20 PM
I think the more people participating makes this work better, more trips turn green...aa73 correct me if Iím wrong on that.

I actually have permanent reminders on my phone of TTOT opening. I then sit in front of 2 computers and my iPad. In my current bid status though, itís 6 to 9 minutes of actual movement and then watching paint dry.

LOL, I had visions of Eric Cartman sitting in front of his computers in his mom's basement...

You're in my bid status, and I agree. 10 minutes and the show is over.

DawnPatrol
08-10-2018, 03:59 PM
My apologies if this is the wrong thread but looking for thoughts and insight from the group on next steps to make my flight experience more attractive to American.

Currently have the base minimums for United currently flying 135 on a Citation Excel. I have the opportunity to move to a much better paying Part 91/135 job on the same metal or go back to 121 on the Airbus with an ULCC. Have some 121 experience with a regional a few years back but no 121 TPIC.

Education - Master Degree, Military - No, Volunteer Work - Yes, Internal United Recommendations - 0, Job Fairs Attended - 0

Regionalsuck
08-10-2018, 04:51 PM
My apologies if this is the wrong thread but looking for thoughts and insight from the group on next steps to make my flight experience more attractive to American.

Currently have the base minimums for United currently flying 135 on a Citation Excel. I have the opportunity to move to a much better paying Part 91/135 job on the same metal or go back to 121 on the Airbus with an ULCC. Have some 121 experience with a regional a few years back but no 121 TPIC.

Education - Master Degree, Military - No, Volunteer Work - Yes, Internal United Recommendations - 0, Job Fairs Attended - 0

To be perfectly honest. You have 2 solid reliable options to get into AA if you're a male and non Military background. Join a guard unit, or go to a wholly owned regional with Flow. None of that flight experience really matters for AA right now. Thousands and thousands of people with 7,000-10,000 hours 121 or more, many are check airman, 121 TPIC, countless internal recs, they never hear a word from AA. It's such a long shot, the odds are astronomical to get in off the street outside of military or flow right now.

Currently out of classes of 80-90ish a month, they are almost all identical. Pretty close to half flow, half Military with maybe 5-7 straight off the street types per month out of that 80-90. Half or more of those 5-7 are generally females to add in some diversity to the classes so if you happen to be a male, you are realistically looking at competing for around 3-4 slots a month if you are lucky. Around 36-48 slots a year. That basically breaks down to the entire civilian population competing for 1 two week class worth of people a year. That's it.

Not to say you can't do it, but that is the reality of getting hired at AA right now outside of Military or Flow. Hours or types isn't cutting it right now. Unless you just get lucky.

My class of around 40 had 1 regional male and 2 regional Females I believe. Everyone else was Military or Flow. Most every class lately is pretty similar give or take a few off the street variances.

PRS Guitars
08-10-2018, 06:25 PM
LOL, I had visions of Eric Cartman sitting in front of his computers in his mom's basement...

You're in my bid status, and I agree. 10 minutes and the show is over.

Ha! Nice! Better than Kyleís Dad and the whole troll thing....:cool:

aa73
08-10-2018, 06:57 PM
I think the more people participating makes this work better, more trips turn green...aa73 correct me if Iím wrong on that.

I believe you are correct.

gzsg
08-13-2018, 08:16 AM
Iím trying to wrap my brain around the APAís mentality of restricting pilots already on property to protect (or cause if you will) more future jobs. Examples include our inability to double dip after having a trip bought, IMAX, not being allowed to fly during vacation, etc. what is the purpose of this while we are hiring 6 to 900 a year? I completely get it if we arenít hiring or have furloughed pilots.

Guys here preach about getting W2ís like SWA and DAL, but I donít think we can earn like SWA with this mentality. And with my limited understanding of Deltaís ďrolling thunderĒ, I donít think that would fly here either. Maybe thatís why most here just care about pay rates, they donít understand the mechanisms by which other airline pilots bolster their income...itís not just profit sharing guys.

Also, we lose leverage by already restricting ourselves. We canít exactly reduce our level of flying when itís already low.

What am I missing? Thoughts?

Remember the items you mentioned will slow your upgrade and your position in category.

The right idea is to fly 75 hours and double your hourly rate. Take your vacation and enjoy your life.

Getting more radiation, dehydration and sleep deprivation is a poor idea.

PRS Guitars
08-13-2018, 08:38 AM
Remember the items you mentioned will slow your upgrade and your position in category.

The right idea is to fly 75 hours and double your hourly rate. Take your vacation and enjoy your life.

Getting more radiation, dehydration and sleep deprivation is a poor idea.

Good points from lots of folks (except Meyers:cool:) which is why I asked.

QuagmireGiggity
08-13-2018, 11:46 AM
I use both as well. What Iím getting at is people kept saying only 1 and 2 day trips get dropped. I have them and canít drop them.
Do you have litesabre?

Dobbs18
08-15-2018, 01:43 PM
I believe you are correct.

I agree that more participation is good, I was referencing the green trip swap around "cheat". Seems like something the company would try to fix if they knew about it, is all...

Cheddar
08-15-2018, 02:14 PM
Fix what? Theyíve tried the stranglehold approach and it backfires continuously. They donít have the IT knowledge to single out sequences that are traded constantly - because a lot of them are! TTS, TTOT and third party trip trade programs help the company staff the airline.


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