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Excargodog
07-29-2018, 04:38 PM
Yes, they will give a reliable flow of pilots to the majors, but I'm not sure that has ever been much of a problem and I doubt it will be in the future.

It seems to me that the primary purpose of flow programs is to allow the regional airlines to continue to fill new hire classes without really raising salaries to the level the market would otherwise demand.

A mainline job is that promised pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that will keep classes full for the wholly owned regional despite sometimes p|$$-poor work rules and a FO starting salary of $39 an hour. And it seems - at least to some extent - to be working.

But is it a good idea?

Right now the regionals are hurting and they are hiring people that they would have simply never hired a few years back. Basically,if you meet ATP or the applicable RATP minimums and have 25 hours of multi engine time, you are Pretty much in at any of the regionals. In with a bonus oftentimes.

Entry level regional guys have been in short supply. No longer do you have much of a technical interview, nobody flies a sim, and the HR interview is sort of cursive. If you have a flying class 1 physical, a radiotelephone license, and are able to fog a mirror, you are our boy (or girl).

Historical criteria like meaningful flying experience ain't a requirement. If you got 1475 hours of Cessna 152 time and took the whole 25 hours of your ME time just to get your multi engine in an old Apache, that's close enough. The HR interviews are a little loosey-goosey too. If the FAA medical people didn't care about those three DUIs, why should we?

Now that's NOT to say that any of those things ought to disqualify people per se, but just so everyone understands,entry criteria to the regionals have been loosened big time. Which gets us back to the original is due of flow.

Is it really adequate to accept the kind of screening the regional hiring people are doing now, even with six or seven years of not getting in any trouble while working at regional wages as adequate screening for coming to the majors. Because that's what is coming down the line. You won't see it immediately - those currently eligible for flow programs were competitively chosen back when there really was competition for those jobs. No, this is a problem that won't manifest itself really for a couple of years,and clearly, the worst if these people will either fail their initial training or sufficiently screw up in the 6-7 year period of employment before they flow to be eliminated, but even so, this is a huge change in the nature of screening for pilots for the majors.

What do you think? Good idea or bad, to essentially guarantee a job at the major after 6-7 years of working at the regional.


PotatoChip
07-29-2018, 04:40 PM
It's a bad idea.
There should ONLY be mainline. There should be no "regional".
One level of hiring. One level of safety. One seniority list.
Anything else is a concession.

Fleet Warp
07-29-2018, 05:49 PM
it's a bad idea.
There should only be mainline. There should be no "regional".
One level of hiring. One level of safety. One seniority list.
Anything else is a concession.

this ^^^^^^^


Ed Force One
07-29-2018, 07:39 PM
"Guaranteed job at a major?"

I had a "guaranteed" job at a major when I got hired at Continental Express in 1999. (For $18/hr, not 39, BTW) And we all know what happened there. (I'm not bitter, honest, just providing an example.)

These flow through agreements are nothing more than a carrot on a string. I suppose it's nice to know it's there as an insurance policy of sorts, but don't stop updating your resume elsewhere.

CLRtoPush
07-29-2018, 09:39 PM
It's a bad idea.
There should ONLY be mainline. There should be no "regional".
One level of hiring. One level of safety. One seniority list.
Anything else is a concession.

You moron; if regionals didnít exist the same folks you are agreeing to label as idiots hired by the regionals would be hired by the majors to fill the same seat. At least LCCs and ULCCs are able to filter out the regional idiots majors have piloting the jets they own. A major with no flow, just keeps the problem pilots concentrated at the regional they contract out to.

RunnerMark
07-30-2018, 06:21 AM
You moron; if regionals didnít exist the same folks you are agreeing to label as idiots hired by the regionals would be hired by the majors to fill the same seat. At least LCCs and ULCCs are able to filter out the regional idiots majors have piloting the jets they own. A major with no flow, just keeps the problem pilots concentrated at the regional they contract out to.

I disagree, but thanks for the insult. And I never labeled anyone as an idiot.

rickair7777
07-30-2018, 06:26 AM
Upside to a serious flow program...
-You get to apply mainline hiring standards to the people flying your feed.
-You get to attract the most competitive entry-level applicants.

Downside...
-High standards at the entry-level are of limited use. You're missing all of that professional turbine and PIC experience. You're evaluating them on HS GPA and whether or not they got caught doing the usual stupid frat boy tricks. You're basically committing to employ a 22 year old for 40+ years. You could I suppose apply some gateways, ie flow beneficiaries have to maintain certain standards with regard to criminal, training, discipline, etc.

Excargodog
07-30-2018, 07:15 AM
Upside to a serious flow program...
-You get to apply mainline hiring standards to the people flying your feed.
-You get to attract the most competitive entry-level applicants.



Do you seriously think that's being done? Because as someone who recently applied to three regionals - and was given CJOs at all three - that process wasn't readily apparent.

at6d
07-30-2018, 09:26 AM
Hey donít forgetóat Eagle we had flowbacks (placed in captain seats per the agreement) that had never been a 121 captain before.

There are drawbacks for the backside of a flow through agreement, too!

Iím glad I work for a carrier that doesnít use regionals.

jcountry
07-30-2018, 10:42 AM
I think the programs are good (overall.)

Iím an off the street guy, but all the flows I have met are good folks.

I think the airline experience is helpful. Especially the knowledge and experience with contracts and work environment. Thatís something which has been missing from some legacies and having more people around who understand that stuff should be helpful-especially in terms of improving our union.

rickair7777
07-30-2018, 03:47 PM
Do you seriously think that's being done? Because as someone who recently applied to three regionals - and was given CJOs at all three - that process wasn't readily apparent.


You're correct, I was speaking more hypothetically, as in there is a potential benefit to management IF they choose to take advantage of it.

And obviously I'm not talking about standards of flight experience... if they had that, they would just get hired at mainline. I'm talking about those other factors which can be measured at the entry level, which is of course not everything, and maybe not the most important things.

fadec
07-31-2018, 05:42 AM
Flow is the closest thing we have to a regular union's career progression. If the regional pilots are terrible then what the hell are they doing in my union? I say flow is fine as long as it's from ALPA carriers. BTW, ten year pin to half wing felt a little strange. Should have cut the United one in half, not the ALPA one.

rickair7777
07-31-2018, 06:43 AM
Flow is the closest thing we have to a regular union's career progression. If the regional pilots are terrible then what the hell are they doing in my union? I say flow is fine as long as it's from ALPA carriers. BTW, ten year pin to half wing felt a little strange. Should have cut the United one in half, not the ALPA one.

Not that easy. If you make it too hard, then too many folks will be forced to pursue "alternative" aviation careers, ie ULCC/regionals and undercut your union. Too low of course and you dilute the brand.

Maybe ALPA needs a separate regional union, with a slightly different name... allow coordination on common interests but agree to disagree on the obvious conflicts of interest.

I think the fundamental show stopper with limiting major hiring to alpa (or any union members) is military pilots. Much as some civilians would like to see a 15-year fighter pilot academy grad with 100 combat missions start in the industry slinging gear for a 25-year old in an RJ, it's just not going to happen, and there's no point in wasting breath talking about it.

Excargodog
07-31-2018, 09:49 AM
I think the fundamental show stopper with limiting major hiring to alpa (or any union members) is military pilots. Much as some civilians would like to see a 15-year fighter pilot academy grad with 100 combat missions start in the industry slinging gear for a 25-year old in an RJ, it's just not going to happen, and there's no point in wasting breath talking about it.

And yet things have changed a lot in the last twenty years in the US military. Aircraft have gotten MUCH more expensive and flying hours have gone down. And yes, there is a pilot shortage but some of that is virtually inevitable at this point, because so many units have been deactivated and bases closed. Don't know about the Navy but the USAF is currently struggling to churn out about 1200 pilots a year. They THINK they'll be able to up that to 1400 a year eventually but to do it they may have to hire civil service or contract instructors, at least for the lower level training. And while the guys in tankers and transports will get some reasonable flying hours, the fighter guys will barely get enough hours to keep quasi proficient if they are simply flying the line and not Stan-eval or instructors.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/03/14/air-force-sets-goal-20-flight-hours-month-pilots.html

Overall USAF flyers get about 18 hours of flying time a month, but the vast majority of that is tanker, transport, and bomber time. The cost to fly an F-35A per hour is $42,606, while an F-22 is $64,287, according to the Air Force's 2016 operational cost for Air Force aircraft data sheet, so the fighter jocks aren't going to be getting huge increases in their rather measly flying hour allotments any time soon either. At least in the USAF, fighter pilots - line flyers - average less than two sorties a week - and it's been that way for the last five years.

So things have rather PROFOUNDLY changed. Even with a 10 YEAR ADSC, the experience level of those coming out of the military is far lower than it has been historically, and even if it wasn't, 1200 pilots a year won't even handle a fraction of the upcoming mandatory retirements. The throughput just isn't there and with all the training bases that used to be around that are now closed, increasing that throughput won't be easy.

Again, can't speak for Navy or Marines or Army fixed wing, but I doubt if they are in much better shape. This simply isn't the military of twenty years ago.

at6d
07-31-2018, 09:50 AM
I think the fundamental show stopper with limiting major hiring to alpa (or any union members) is military pilots. Much as some civilians would like to see a 15-year fighter pilot academy grad with 100 combat missions start in the industry slinging gear for a 25-year old in an RJ, it's just not going to happen, and there's no point in wasting breath talking about it.

What if itís a 55 year old in an RJ? Will your 1500 hour mil pilot be ok with that?

You cant use the tactic of stating an opinion and then disallowing discussion on a discussion forum.

There are plenty of military guys flying for regionals right now due to recency issues.

m3113n1a1
07-31-2018, 10:20 AM
What if itís a 55 year old in an RJ? Will your 1500 hour mil pilot be ok with that?

You cant use the tactic of stating an opinion and then disallowing discussion on a discussion forum.

There are plenty of military guys flying for regionals right now due to recency issues.

Also what if it's a 28 year old in a Delta MD-88? Is it okay for a 15-year all star fighter jock to sling his gear seeing as it's not an RJ?

rickair7777
07-31-2018, 10:40 AM
What if it’s a 55 year old in an RJ? Will your 1500 hour mil pilot be ok with that?

Depends.


You cant use the tactic of stating an opinion and then disallowing discussion on a discussion forum.

Tactic? What tactic? What did I disallow??? :confused:



There are plenty of military guys flying for regionals right now due to recency issues.

Due to their own individual circumstances, in many or most cases self-inflicted. And they stay for about 18 months, maybe. They are not forced to wait for upgrade and then wait for flow (which could take up to 15-20 years if hiring is slow).

The point being it's simply not going to happen that the ONLY pathway to a legacy will be via regional feeders to the exclusion of mil, corporate, foriegn experience, etc. That's the reality, and it doesn't really matter what I think are the underlying reasons.

BTW... I was framing the problem, not actually stating that I think experienced mil pilots are automatically entitled to anything. Bottom line, majors want mil pilots, and mil pilots have six figure career options in a wide variety of jobs, both non-airline and non-aviation. So the majors will probably not do anything to exclude them... forcing a broadly talented self-starter to sling gear at a regional for years is going to effectively exclude most of them, they'll just go do something else.

WakeWash
07-31-2018, 10:44 AM
I think the programs are good (overall.)

Iím an off the street guy, but all the flows I have met are good folks.

I think the airline experience is helpful. Especially the knowledge and experience with contracts and work environment. Thatís something which has been missing from some legacies and having more people around who understand that stuff should be helpful-especially in terms of improving our union.

Iím sure the guys youíve flown with are great, but remember these current flows are guys hired 6+ years ago before the current hiring process the regionals have. They actually had real interviews. Just to give you some perspective on how a place with flow programs will look in a few years and beyond. At my previous place that had a flow, a guy was hired who had 7 checkride failures. 3 years ago he was turned away. He was recently hired after trying again and upgraded quickly because thatís how bad they need him. This guy is now guaranteed to be working at mainline. Of course he could be a whole new pilot, I donít know. But really almost anyone is being hired now. The regionals are essentially doing the hiring now, with the major having no say anymore.

CrispyBacon
07-31-2018, 10:49 AM
The only thing a regional airline accomplishes is to divide the pilot group only in this instance do mainline unions not fall apart over tiered flying scales. Why? Because its "not at my airline".

These are the same unions that accept dues from regional pilots for decades and then wont even help them get an interview at a mainline because "my military pilot buddies" or some other lame excuse. The same d-bags that will happily ride our jump seats to their better quality of life every week and brag about their assets and talk down to the people that give them a ride.

100% READY TO DISSOLVE ALPA! Regional representation is a LIE.

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 10:54 AM
The only thing a regional airline accomplishes is to divide the pilot group only in this instance do mainline unions not fall apart over tiered flying scales. Why? Because its "not at my airline".

These are the same unions that accept dues from regional pilots for decades and then wont even help them get an interview at a mainline because "my military pilot buddies" or some other lame excuse. The same d-bags that will happily ride our jump seats to their better quality of life every week and brag about their assets and talk down to the people that give them a ride.

100% READY TO DISSOLVE ALPA! Regional representation is a LIE.

I agree with half of this. I've never been "talked down to" by a jumpseater. Almost all have been gracious and thankful. That said, I have been in mainline jumpseats and been talked down to by completely clueless pilots with zero understanding of the regional airline industry who somehow thought I was taking THEIR jobs...

I do agree that it's a joke that regionals are "represented" by ALPA. ALPA has done many wonderful things for the industry, and I've been a volunteer in committees myself. However, when they post applause for themselves over Mesa's or CommutAir's contracts I can't help but laugh at a what a joke it is. /rant

Mesabah
07-31-2018, 11:02 AM
Upside to a serious flow program...
-You get to apply mainline hiring standards to the people flying your feed.
-You get to attract the most competitive entry-level applicants.

Downside...
-High standards at the entry-level are of limited use. You're missing all of that professional turbine and PIC experience. You're evaluating them on HS GPA and whether or not they got caught doing the usual stupid frat boy tricks. You're basically committing to employ a 22 year old for 40+ years. You could I suppose apply some gateways, ie flow beneficiaries have to maintain certain standards with regard to criminal, training, discipline, etc.
Delta had some bad attitude issues with Compass flows, from which, NWA did the screening process back then. Culture probably plays the biggest role in whether a flow will be successful or not. A flow should display an additional level of humility if taken up to mainline.



If a pilot is a total failure, they can be eliminated during the mainline probationary period. That's certainly a lot more expensive for an airline, but not more expensive than operating the regional jets at mainline if it comes to that.

CrispyBacon
07-31-2018, 11:06 AM
Also what if it's a 28 year old in a Delta MD-88? Is it okay for a 15-year all star fighter jock to sling his gear seeing as it's not an RJ?

Of course Mainline pilots apply different standards to 28 year old captains based upon the company they fly for. 28 year old Delta captain is worth more then a 55 year old RJ captain to these narcissistic boomer know it alls.

100% READY TO DISSOLVE ALPA! Regional representation is a LIE.

rickair7777
07-31-2018, 11:14 AM
The only thing a regional airline accomplishes is to divide the pilot group only in this instance do mainline unions not fall apart over tiered flying scales. Why? Because its "not at my airline".

These are the same unions that accept dues from regional pilots for decades and then wont even help them get an interview at a mainline because "my military pilot buddies" or some other lame excuse. The same d-bags that will happily ride our jump seats to their better quality of life every week and brag about their assets and talk down to the people that give them a ride.

100% READY TO DISSOLVE ALPA! Regional representation is a LIE.

Sounds like somebody had an epiphany. I wouldn't dissolve alpa (you can't) but maybe form a national regional union instead. Number one on the agenda should be a regional one-list, to mitigate the damage from whipsaw.

No, major pilots do not have any incentive to help out regional pilots at their own expense, particularly when any largess extended to the regionals would come out of the pockets of mainline pilots!

And mil guys have a tight bond with their squadron bros, far more so than regional pilots for each other... they could teach ya'll a thing or two about unity :rolleyes:

Your next realization should be that the regionals are essentially internships for pilots... you should be looking to get a permanent position at mainline. If you chose not to, or chose to stay in the mail room if the bigs don't call, then you're at the mercy of the system for the rest of your career.

I once thought that I might be able to stay at the regionals (money not being nearly as big an issue as QOL for me), but I was wrong and realized it soon enough.

BoldPilot
07-31-2018, 11:16 AM
I think we should just enjoy the good times in this industry for the time being! Things are eventually going to turn for the worse.

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 11:44 AM
Your next realization should be that the regionals are essentially internships for pilots...

This is unfortunate and one of many reasons there should be no regional airline industry. The more pilots that express this opinion and accept it, the more likely there is to never be any improvement. It's NOT an internship. Interns aren't tasked with high-level, technically demanding jobs, that are EXACTLY the same as the "real" job. This isn't 1994. Regional pilots don't make up a small fraction of the industry anymore flying short 100 mile legs. Regional pilots unfortunately now make up a huge portion of the flying at every legacy and fly routes that span over half the continent. That's not an intern, that's a mainline job flown by a subcontractor. Mainline unions would never allow subcontracting routes to a third party B-scaled pilot group.... unless it's a regional, than it is totally acceptable.
Further, as you are well aware, economies crumble, recessions happen, and years go by without any hiring at the major level. Before you know it, pilots are "interns" for 15 years and then deemed un-hireable because they haven't progressed their career. Unreal.
"You can fly OUR passengers, OUR colors, at OUR gates, but you cannot have OUR pay, you don't deserve that."

rickair7777
07-31-2018, 12:11 PM
This is unfortunate and one of many reasons there should be no regional airline industry. The more pilots that express this opinion and accept it, the more likely there is to never be any improvement. It's NOT an internship. Interns aren't tasked with high-level, technically demanding jobs, that are EXACTLY the same as the "real" job. This isn't 1994. Regional pilots don't make up a small fraction of the industry anymore flying short 100 mile legs. Regional pilots unfortunately now make up a huge portion of the flying at every legacy and fly routes that span over half the continent. That's not an intern, that's a mainline job flown by a subcontractor. Mainline unions would never allow subcontracting routes to a third party B-scaled pilot group.... unless it's a regional, than it is totally acceptable.
Further, as you are well aware, economies crumble, recessions happen, and years go by without any hiring at the major level. Before you know it, pilots are "interns" for 15 years and then deemed un-hireable because they haven't progressed their career. Unreal.
"You can fly OUR passengers, OUR colors, at OUR gates, but you cannot have OUR pay, you don't deserve that."

"should" according to who? Not anyone who matters.

All true from the perspective of the pilots, who have little say in the matter... or are played with such skill that they don't exercise what influence they might have. Remember, our masters sit around all day figuring out how to manipulate us, that's what they DO. Airline tickets are largely a commodity, so the money to be made is largely in cost control/reduction, not product differentiation. Pax quickly take quality for granted and then sort by price anyway.

Fleet Warp
07-31-2018, 12:15 PM
This thread is lit with truth. The regional industry is filled with good people who got stuck here the last 20 years. And now many of us can't get out. The worst part about all this is the ignorance of and complete acceptance by mainline pilots. We all suffered from the lost decade. Some of us still suffer. And nothing will change until mainline pilots stand up together with regionals and say no more. There is little difference to b scales of old. We must stop pandering to corporate greed.

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 12:26 PM
"should" according to who? Not anyone who matters.



Should according to me. Iím the author. Thought that was pretty clear since I didnít specify otherwise.

But thank you for letting me know I donít matter; as it is I already knew that.

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 12:32 PM
All true from the perspective of the pilots, who have little say in the matter...

I respectfully disagree.
We have a lot of say in the matter. Scope is a great example. Unions have the ability to negotiate based on such contingencies as the amount of aircraft they fly.
Individual pilots have a say by choosing not to fly at a regional with zero career progression.
I have some pipe dreams on how this should be handled from an ALPA National position, but there is a reason itís only a pipe dream and we will continue to be exploited for a while yet.

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 12:34 PM
I think we should just enjoy the good times in this industry for the time being! Things are eventually going to turn for the worse.

Respectfully, thatís the worst thing we should do.
Carpe diem.
We should never stop trying to improve our profession.

FlyingSlowly
07-31-2018, 03:06 PM
Sounds like somebody had an epiphany. I wouldn't dissolve alpa (you can't) but maybe form a national regional union instead. Number one on the agenda should be a regional one-list, to mitigate the damage from whipsaw.

While I agree, ALPA national clearly only seems to care about the majors. Very little effort is placed on bringing up the bottom end. Amateur MEC reps have been allowed to negotiate on their own, and in some cases have done more harm than good to a regional pilot group. There are cases where an increased flow to mainline has 'bought' senior pilot reps, while having them cast their vote to throw seniority out the window for certain FO QOL issues.

It's not just the whipsaw anymore at the regionals, sometimes it's the sell-out by our own union reps...

No, major pilots do not have any incentive to help out regional pilots at their own expense, particularly when any largess extended to the regionals would come out of the pockets of mainline pilots!


Do you really believe that pilot salaries are a zero-sum game? How many time have you are heard: "We are not paid what we are worth, we are paid what we negotiate"? In this age of newfound airline profitability, the window for increased pay at all levels of the industry is opened. But do not misunderstand me, any major will only pay what they have to pay the pilots at all levels. However, there is not a shortage of funds and a 50% increase to our (still) pathetic salaries surely will not diminish yours.

Put alternatively, how do the legacies make money here in the US? It's with well-run, efficiently-banked hubs. Why? Because these allow the regional flights to come in with pax to fill up the A321 cash cows...

But the 150-200 pax mainline aircraft would not be full without the regionals bringing all the connecting pax to the hub. So who is supporting whom in this case?

To suggest that any regional pilot raise would have to come from the largesse of mainline pilots is ignorant at best, and self-righteously malicious at worst.

But whatever you guys at the legacies do, just PLEASE don't give any further scope concessions...

rickair7777
07-31-2018, 03:47 PM
It's not just the whipsaw anymore at the regionals, sometimes it's the sell-out by our own union reps...

That's a whole 'nother issue at the regionals. Crusty, bitter, cynical old dudes blatantly throwing the junior pilots under the bus in exchange for a few pieces of silver. Less blatant at the bigs, where everyone has been around the block a few times.


Do you really believe that pilot salaries are a zero-sum game? How many time have you are heard: "

Mostly, yes. If the big boyz go to bat for the regionals, they will have to trade something away.


Put alternatively, how do the legacies make money here in the US? It's with well-run, efficiently-banked hubs. Why? Because these allow the regional flights to come in with pax to fill up the A321 cash cows...

But the 150-200 pax mainline aircraft would not be full without the regionals bringing all the connecting pax to the hub. So who is supporting whom in this case?

All true, but nobodies getting anything out of the goodness of anyone's heart based on what's "fair".



To suggest that any regional pilot raise would have to come from the largesse of mainline pilots is ignorant at best, and self-righteously malicious at worst.

No it could also come from the regional pilots themselves and get ultimately passed on as a cost to mainline by the regionals... but it would have to be done all at once (ie national union), otherwise the first guy to stick his neck out will get COMAIRed. That's the way the regional system is designed to function, and it's humming along smoothly on all cylinders.


But whatever you guys at the legacies do, just PLEASE don't give any further scope concessions...

I don't think anybody my age or younger has any appetite for that. Ultra senior guys might happily trade away half the NB fleet for $1/hour but I doubt they could get away with it... too many lost generation alums out there.

CrispyBacon
07-31-2018, 03:58 PM
I wouldn't dissolve alpa (you can't) but maybe form a national regional union instead.

YES WE COULD. I remember when US Airways voted ALPO off property. I remember the panic at national and how they turned around and began deducting dues from our pretax (instead of post tax) income to make up the short fall.

Those fat pigs sit up there at national and in their locals eating dues catered meals every day strumming their free salary multiples while all the grunt work is done by well intentioned volunteers.

Guaranteed if all the regionals voted ALPO off property, and levied a class action law suit against them at the same time they would dissolve.

There are tons of dudes on here who get it. I know you do too.

100% READY TO DISSOLVE ALPA! Regional representation is a LIE.

jcountry
07-31-2018, 06:03 PM
Iím sure the guys youíve flown with are great, but remember these current flows are guys hired 6+ years ago before the current hiring process the regionals have. They actually had real interviews. Just to give you some perspective on how a place with flow programs will look in a few years and beyond. At my previous place that had a flow, a guy was hired who had 7 checkride failures. 3 years ago he was turned away. He was recently hired after trying again and upgraded quickly because thatís how bad they need him. This guy is now guaranteed to be working at mainline. Of course he could be a whole new pilot, I donít know. But really almost anyone is being hired now. The regionals are essentially doing the hiring now, with the major having no say anymore.

I definitely have my concerns about that.

I know of folks who showed up at regional job fairs, passed out 5 or 7 resumes and got job offers for every single resume-with no interviews.

Definitely concerning.

We have a solution for that, though. Flows go through probation as well.

I have been flying for airlines 20 years. I have yet to encounter anyone at my current airline who Iíd consider dangerous. There were a couple at the regional. That problem can (and should) be taken care of.

Those few people are very easily identified. Anyone who really does need to be fired in their probationary year is a 24/7 idiot.

WakeWash
07-31-2018, 06:09 PM
I definitely have my concerns about that.

I know of folks who showed up at regional job fairs, passed out 5 or 7 resumes and got job offers for every single resume-with no interviews.

Definitely concerning.

We have a solution for that, though. Flows go through probation as well.

True, but really how hard is probation on an Airbus when you really make zero decisions cause the CAs are doing that for you?

jcountry
07-31-2018, 06:32 PM
True, but really how hard is probation on an Airbus when you really make zero decisions cause the CAs are doing that for you?

Your sarcasm font is inop

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 06:34 PM
I definitely have my concerns about that.

I know of folks who showed up at regional job fairs, passed out 5 or 7 resumes and got job offers for every single resume-with no interviews.

Definitely concerning.

We have a solution for that, though. Flows go through probation as well.

I have been flying for airlines 20 years. I have yet to encounter anyone at my current airline who Iíd consider dangerous. There were a couple at the regional. That problem can (and should) be taken care of.

Those few people are very easily identified. Anyone who really does need to be fired in their probationary year is a 24/7 idiot.

Yeah, and in the meantime that person had six extra sim lessons, an additional 35 hours of IOE, upgraded after one winter season and then took an additional three upgrade sims. And all the while they are flying revenue passengers with LEGACY AIRLINES painted on the side and LEGACY AIRLINES written on the ticket they bought from LEGACY AIRLINES website.

Itís not a solution.

jcountry
07-31-2018, 06:44 PM
Yeah, and in the meantime that person had six extra sim lessons, an additional 35 hours of IOE, upgraded after one winter season and then took an additional three upgrade sims. And all the while they are flying revenue passengers with LEGACY AIRLINES painted on the side and LEGACY AIRLINES written on the ticket they bought from LEGACY AIRLINES website.

Itís not a solution.

Dude.

Anyone that jacked up would not even make it to a checkride.

PotatoChip
07-31-2018, 06:55 PM
Dude.

Anyone that jacked up would not even make it to a checkride.

You clearly havenít seen a regional lately.
I have. And they do.

jcountry
07-31-2018, 07:02 PM
You clearly havenít seen a regional lately.
I have. And they do.

Assuming they are really that awful-you think the coats they fly with and the CPs would refuse to deal with the problem?

I donít know anyone who has been fired during their probationary year personally, but it happens from time to time.

Fleet Warp
07-31-2018, 07:04 PM
Dude.

Anyone that jacked up would not even make it to a checkride.

You havee no idea what your talking about then. 3+ extra Sims, a check ride redo, and/or 80+ hours of ioe is the new regional standard.

Excargodog
07-31-2018, 08:48 PM
Dude.

Anyone that jacked up would not even make it to a checkride.

Dude yourself.

Talk to the people who rent sims about the increase in the average number of sessions the regionals are buying per trainee.

Some of these new hires have 1475 hours of Cessna 152 time and 25 hours of ME in a 1985 Piper Seneca, and it took 23 of those Seneca hours for them to be signed off to finally take their multi engine check ride. They may actually have NEVER been solo in a multi engine aircraft. Not a single hour. Or have an hour of actual instrument time.

Now you put them in a training program for a 70 Pax jet that flies at Mach 0.82 at FL370. With all the system's stuff CBT which they eventually learn by rote repetition. Then they get to flat panel trainers and need extra sessions before going to sims and needing extra sessions. I know if one regional that kept a guy in IOE for 100 hours before they passed him along. After giving him extra flat panel trainer and sim sessions. And no, he wasn't the owner's son in law, he was just a generic newbie.

And yes, he's at a regional with flow.

And while he MAY be eliminated in probation - either at regional or at mainline - you actually have to let him DO enough to screw up to justify that. And how likely is that to happen in his first year - especially at mainline?

m3113n1a1
07-31-2018, 09:18 PM
Dude yourself.

Talk to the people who rent sims about the increase in the average number of sessions the regionals are buying per trainee.

Some of these new hires have 1475 hours of Cessna 152 time and 25 hours of ME in a 1985 Piper Seneca, and it took 23 of those Seneca hours for them to be signed off to finally take their multi engine check ride. They may actually have NEVER been solo in a multi engine aircraft. Not a single hour. Or have an hour of actual instrument time.

Now you put them in a training program for a 70 Pax jet that flies at Mach 0.82 at FL370. With all the system's stuff CBT which they eventually learn by rote repetition. Then they get to flat panel trainers and need extra sessions before going to sims and needing extra sessions. I know if one regional that kept a guy in IOE for 100 hours before they passed him along. After giving him extra flat panel trainer and sim sessions. And no, he wasn't the owner's son in law, he was just a generic newbie.

And yes, he's at a regional with flow.

And while he MAY be eliminated in probation - either at regional or at mainline - you actually have to let him DO enough to screw up to justify that. And how likely is that to happen in his first year - especially at mainline?

Yep, I think this is commonplace now from what I hear from all my RJ buddies. Basically unlimited sims and OE to get you through as long as you have a good attitude about it!

BobbyLeeSwagger
07-31-2018, 09:20 PM
This is unfortunate and one of many reasons there should be no regional airline industry. The more pilots that express this opinion and accept it, the more likely there is to never be any improvement. It's NOT an internship. Interns aren't tasked with high-level, technically demanding jobs, that are EXACTLY the same as the "real" job. This isn't 1994. Regional pilots don't make up a small fraction of the industry anymore flying short 100 mile legs. Regional pilots unfortunately now make up a huge portion of the flying at every legacy and fly routes that span over half the continent. That's not an intern, that's a mainline job flown by a subcontractor. Mainline unions would never allow subcontracting routes to a third party B-scaled pilot group.... unless it's a regional, than it is totally acceptable.
Further, as you are well aware, economies crumble, recessions happen, and years go by without any hiring at the major level. Before you know it, pilots are "interns" for 15 years and then deemed un-hireable because they haven't progressed their career. Unreal.
"You can fly OUR passengers, OUR colors, at OUR gates, but you cannot have OUR pay, you don't deserve that."

That's a mic drop. It goes without saying
.. "this^"

BobbyLeeSwagger
07-31-2018, 09:33 PM
Some of these new hires have 1475 hours of Cessna 152 time and 25 hours of ME in a 1985 Piper Seneca, and it took 23 of those Seneca hours for them to be signed off to finally take their multi engine check ride. They may actually have NEVER been solo in a multi engine aircraft. Not a single hour. Or have an hour of actual instrument time.


Oh my gosh, I dont think I have ever soloed a multi lol, never thought about it. They're so expensive to rent so... (Not being sarcastic)

Excargodog
07-31-2018, 10:30 PM
Oh my gosh, I dont think I have ever soloed a multi lol, never thought about it. They're so expensive to rent so... (Not being sarcastic)

You could always rent an Aeronca Lancer. Basically just a second (IIRC 65 hp) engine added to an Aeronca Champ fuselage. Fixed gear, fixed props, and with a single engine service ceiling somewhere near the bottom of the Marianas Trench.

They were pretty cheap to rent. Heck, you might be able to rent an hour or two for the cost of fuel and a few dozen packs of Oreo cookies swi... I mean appropriated from the passenger snacks.

PotatoChip
08-01-2018, 03:51 AM
Assuming they are really that awful-you think the coats they fly with and the CPs would refuse to deal with the problem?

I donít know anyone who has been fired during their probationary year personally, but it happens from time to time.

Sorry, but you are clearly out of touch to the realities of the new normal in the regional airline industry.

rickair7777
08-01-2018, 06:30 AM
Oh my gosh, I dont think I have ever soloed a multi lol, never thought about it. They're so expensive to rent so... (Not being sarcastic)

Haha, looking back I think you're right! In about 8,000 ME hours I can think of exactly two flights where I must have been solo. In the GA days I used to fly a lot for personal reasons but it was always ASEL.

rickair7777
08-01-2018, 06:39 AM
You havee no idea what your talking about then. 3+ extra Sims, a check ride redo, and/or 80+ hours of ioe is the new regional standard.

One of several reasons I left was I got tired of doing perpetual unpaid IOE, that combined with the heavy schedules was really draining. And the CP's got in the habit of assigning post-IOE problem children to fly with certain experienced and trusted CA's... and I was on the list!

jcountry
08-01-2018, 10:10 AM
Yep, I think this is commonplace now from what I hear from all my RJ buddies. Basically unlimited sims and OE to get you through as long as you have a good attitude about it!

I thought we were talking about mainline training.

If someone is really that big of an idiot, seems like they would have issues with probation at mainline.

I flew with a couple of 30k hour guys at my regional who I wouldnít trust to dust a lamp shade without starting a house fire somehow.

Those guys are out there, and no matter what experience level, those few never seem to get better.

Fleet Warp
08-01-2018, 10:18 AM
I thought we were talking about mainline training.

If someone is really that big of an idiot, seems like they would have issues with probation at mainline.

I flew with a couple of 30k hour guys at my regional who I wouldnít trust to dust a lamp shade without starting a house fire somehow.

Those guys are out there, and no matter what experience level, those few never seem to get better.

Those guys are at every company and probably roughly equal distribution from every training back ground. To even imply otherwise is both silly and only serves to muddy the issues.

No Land 3
08-04-2018, 10:30 PM
I'm amazed at the elitist attitudes many of you have in the pax flying world. Perhaps you should all take a pause and self reflect on your crappy bus driver job, flying a slightly larger regional jet, living the same crappy lifestyle as a regional guy with a few more days off and a bigger paycheck? From where I sit, I have to tell you that your crap also stinks.
Yes, I fly for Kalitta on the 747(save you the time of looking up my post history) and I seriously do not understand where your elitist attitudes come from? Highly selective hiring process? How about you have a strict training program that washes people out left and right instead? Wouldn't that be a more valid way of being selective, rather than who can please the HR clowns?

450knotOffice
08-04-2018, 10:47 PM
I'm amazed at the elitist attitudes many of you have in the pax flying world. Perhaps you should all take a pause and self reflect on your crappy bus driver job, flying a slightly larger regional jet, living the same crappy lifestyle as a regional guy with a few more days off and a bigger paycheck? From where I sit, I have to tell you that your crap also stinks.
Yes, I fly for Kalitta on the 747(save you the time of looking up my post history) and I seriously do not understand where your elitist attitudes come from? Highly selective hiring process? How about you have a strict training program that washes people out left and right instead? Wouldn't that be a more valid way of being selective, rather than who can please the HR clowns?

Might want to re-read your post. Youíre coming off very elitist yourself.

No Land 3
08-04-2018, 11:42 PM
Might want to re-read your post. Youíre coming off very elitist yourself.

Damn it, I must be a pilot.

CALFO
08-05-2018, 04:14 AM
"Guaranteed job at a major?"

I had a "guaranteed" job at a major when I got hired at Continental Express in 1999. (For $18/hr, not 39, BTW) And we all know what happened there. (I'm not bitter, honest, just providing an example.)

These flow through agreements are nothing more than a carrot on a string. I suppose it's nice to know it's there as an insurance policy of sorts, but don't stop updating your resume elsewhere.

Are you sure you were hired in 1999? Because If you were hired at CalEx in 1999, then you were well outside of the flow through program. That would have been made extremely clear during your calEx interview and was common knowledge of every line pilot.

jcountry
08-05-2018, 05:19 AM
Those guys are at every company and probably roughly equal distribution from every training back ground. To even imply otherwise is both silly and only serves to muddy the issues.

I’m not so sure.

The two I’m thinking of were real bad, and had loooong histories of doing idiotic stuff in real life. They were both hired at a very early time in the airline. I’m fairly certain neither one would make it through probation (even at any regional) today.

We are talking real idiots. One eventually got fired because he beat up his F.O. Inflight.

And yes. I do believe majors give a little more scrutiny during probation, in general.

Fleet Warp
08-05-2018, 05:30 AM
Iím not so sure.

The two Iím thinking of were real bad, and had loooong histories of doing idiotic stuff in real life. They were both hired at a very early time in the airline. Iím fairly certain neither one would make it through probation (even at any regional) today.

We are talking real idiots. One eventually got fired because he beat up his F.O. Inflight.

hahaha. MH did that. You have to wonder if the fab 5 were always so fabulous...

jcountry
08-05-2018, 05:32 AM
hahaha. MH did that. You have to wonder if the fab 5 were always so fabulous...

That’s exactly who I’m talking about.

And, God.... What a ****ing retard, on so many levels. Only through the grace of God that he didn’t make a smoking hole somewhere. I remember his dumb ass arguing about how there wasn’t really ice in the clouds. Forget icing criteria, he thought he was smarter than all the engineers. He had this crazy ass theory that ice couldn’t adhere above some TAS, and at certain altitudes. Ice was “fake news” to him anyhow.... “ Never got deiced in the brasilia, because blah and blah and whatever.” Tip of the iceberg with him.

He was crazy as a bedbug. I heard about him breaking up with some chick. They were living together at the time. He took all of her family heirlooms, pics, yearbooks, etc etc and threw them in the basement. Turned on a garden hose, threw it in there and went to work. Destroyed his house to mess up her stuff. What a true idiot! And just as big of a damned fool in the plane.

Can you imagine someone that ****ing stupid making it through probation anywhere? I guess they didn’t have it when he was new.

WakeWash
08-05-2018, 11:19 AM
I'm amazed at the elitist attitudes many of you have in the pax flying world. Perhaps you should all take a pause and self reflect on your crappy bus driver job, flying a slightly larger regional jet, living the same crappy lifestyle as a regional guy with a few more days off and a bigger paycheck? From where I sit, I have to tell you that your crap also stinks.
Yes, I fly for Kalitta on the 747(save you the time of looking up my post history) and I seriously do not understand where your elitist attitudes come from? Highly selective hiring process? How about you have a strict training program that washes people out left and right instead? Wouldn't that be a more valid way of being selective, rather than who can please the HR clowns?

Do you realize the cost of putting everyone through training just to wash them out, versus the cost of just flying them in to interview?

Rahlifer
08-05-2018, 11:24 AM
The biggest problem with flow programs is the decline in quality of new hires. Mainline companies have extremely selective standards and hire only top quality candidates. Regionals on the other hand, will take anyone that can fog a mirror and holds a pilot certificate. I actually dread going to work when I see I'm paired up to fly with a new guy because I have no idea what I'm gonna get. Most have been pretty decent, but I've flown with some characters that just ****ing wore me out. I'm by no means a super Sully, but I can wrestle my little RJ around for a few days without setting off a stick shaker or plowing through massive thunderstorm.

A flow may not be bad as long as it has some strict barriers in place such as no one over forty, no more than ten years at a regional, absolutely no training failures or disciplinary issues, etc.

Castle Bravo
08-05-2018, 12:30 PM
no one over forty

Age discrimination is illegal, you know. What's wrong with being over 40? Those folks can fly for 25 more years before mandatory retirement.

Grumpyaviator
08-05-2018, 12:35 PM
The biggest problem with flow programs is the decline in quality of new hires. Mainline companies have extremely selective standards and hire only top quality candidates. Regionals on the other hand, will take anyone that can fog a mirror and holds a pilot certificate. I actually dread going to work when I see I'm paired up to fly with a new guy because I have no idea what I'm gonna get. Most have been pretty decent, but I've flown with some characters that just ****ing wore me out. I'm by no means a super Sully, but I can wrestle my little RJ around for a few days without setting off a stick shaker or plowing through massive thunderstorm.

A flow may not be bad as long as it has some strict barriers in place such as no one over forty, no more than ten years at a regional, absolutely no training failures or disciplinary issues, etc.

Ya, there are no competent pilots over 40, or who are senior at a regional. Fortunately, the airlines who have been very successful at hiring highly qualified pilots would disagree, they’ve been able to identify losers without using a blanket judgement.

However, the majors that use a flow have committed themselves to pilots that have been vetted by regional HR folks who are hiring any pilot that is willing to apply without consideration to their abilities.

Rahlifer
08-05-2018, 12:59 PM
Ya, there are no competent pilots over 40, or who are senior at a regional. Fortunately, the airlines who have been very successful at hiring highly qualified pilots would disagree, theyíve been able to identify losers without using a blanket judgement.

However, the majors that use a flow have committed themselves to pilots that have been vetted by regional HR folks who are hiring any pilot that is willing to apply without consideration to their abilities.

I didn't say that all pilots over forty are incompetent. But someone that's in the higher age range and has spent a decade or more at a regional most likely has some issues and shouldn't just get a free pass onto a mainline seniority list by bypassing the normal vetting process.

Do you honestly believe that regional HR folks are anywhere nearly as thorough as mainline HR? There's a serious crunch down here at the JV level just trying to fill classes.

vessbot
08-05-2018, 01:00 PM
Do you realize the cost of putting everyone through training just to wash them out, versus the cost of just flying them in to interview?

Yes an interview is a lot cheaper than a training event, but when the interview doesn't include a sim eval, or any other way to make sure the person can fly, its value as a gatekeeper seems... next to non-existent to me.

Are there any pax airlines that have a sim eval? I haven't heard of such a thing at the majors or regionals. I know that Kalitta and USA Jet have one.

Baradium
08-05-2018, 01:02 PM
I didn't say that all pilots over forty are incompetent. But someone that's in the higher age range and has spent a decade or more at a regional most likely has some issues and shouldn't just get a free pass onto a mainline seniority list by bypassing the normal vetting process.

Do you honestly believe that regional HR folks are anywhere nearly as thorough as mainline HR? There's a serious crunch down here at the JV level just trying to fill classes.

Sounds like you just explained why no regional should have a flow.

Baradium
08-05-2018, 01:03 PM
Yes an interview is a lot cheaper than a training event, but when the interview doesn't include a sim eval, or any other way to make sure the person can fly, its value as a gatekeeper seems... next to non-existent to me.

Are there any pax airlines that have a sim eval? I haven't heard of such a thing at the majors or regionals. I know that Kalitta and USA Jet have one.

Part of the Delta testing is meant to duplicate a sim eval but without penalizing those who haven't flown a specific make or model aircraft. Lots of hand eye coordination and multitasking involved.

at6d
08-05-2018, 02:04 PM
Are there any pax airlines that have a sim eval? I haven't heard of such a thing at the majors or regionals. I know that Kalitta and USA Jet have one.

Does United still do it?

Grumpyaviator
08-05-2018, 02:32 PM
I didn't say that all pilots over forty are incompetent. But someone that's in the higher age range and has spent a decade or more at a regional most likely has some issues and shouldn't just get a free pass onto a mainline seniority list by bypassing the normal vetting process.

Do you honestly believe that regional HR folks are anywhere nearly as thorough as mainline HR? There's a serious crunch down here at the JV level just trying to fill classes.

What Iím saying is regional HR does not vet the way the majors do, and so the majors should not rely on them. Iím opposed to flows primarily for that reason.

Grumpyaviator
08-05-2018, 02:34 PM
Yes an interview is a lot cheaper than a training event, but when the interview doesn't include a sim eval, or any other way to make sure the person can fly, its value as a gatekeeper seems... next to non-existent to me.

Are there any pax airlines that have a sim eval? I haven't heard of such a thing at the majors or regionals. I know that Kalitta and USA Jet have one.

UAL, FedEx and SWA do a chair-fly scenario.

Subpilot
08-05-2018, 05:19 PM
A flow may not be bad as long as it has some strict barriers in place such as no one over forty, no more than ten years at a regional, absolutely no training failures or disciplinary issues, etc.

Well fudge me. You just took away my flow. I was 41 when I went over and spent 11 years at my regional. I was a LCA for my last two years, have a BS degree, military experience and never failed an event but I guess that isnít good enough by your standards.

itsmytime
08-05-2018, 07:07 PM
Well fudge me. You just took away my flow. I was 41 when I went over and spent 11 years at my regional. I was a LCA for my last two years, have a BS degree, military experience and never failed an event but I guess that isnít good enough by your standards.

I wouldn't put much stock in a guy with the screenname "Rahlifer."

450knotOffice
08-05-2018, 09:39 PM
I wouldn't put much stock in a guy with the screenname "Rahlifer."

Lol! Right?!

sailingfun
08-06-2018, 06:32 AM
I didn't say that all pilots over forty are incompetent. But someone that's in the higher age range and has spent a decade or more at a regional most likely has some issues and shouldn't just get a free pass onto a mainline seniority list by bypassing the normal vetting process.

Do you honestly believe that regional HR folks are anywhere nearly as thorough as mainline HR? There's a serious crunch down here at the JV level just trying to fill classes.

You do know that the average new hire age at the legacies is around 37 years old.

sailingfun
08-06-2018, 06:35 AM
Yes an interview is a lot cheaper than a training event, but when the interview doesn't include a sim eval, or any other way to make sure the person can fly, its value as a gatekeeper seems... next to non-existent to me.

Are there any pax airlines that have a sim eval? I haven't heard of such a thing at the majors or regionals. I know that Kalitta and USA Jet have one.

Sim Evals were once common. They proved to be off little use however since the profiles quickly got out and applicants would fly the profiles over and over in rented sims. It just forced everyone to spend a ton of cash if they wanted to get hired.

rickair7777
08-06-2018, 07:04 AM
Age discrimination is illegal, you know. What's wrong with being over 40? Those folks can fly for 25 more years before mandatory retirement.

Caution: Broad generalization ahead (in response to broad generalization).


Millenials. They want it ALL, and RIGHT NOW. Since they mostly have absolutely no drive to earn it themselves, taking it away from those who already earned it is the best option.

Excargodog
08-06-2018, 07:44 AM
Caution: Broad generalization ahead (in response to broad generalization).


Millenials. They want it ALL, and RIGHT NOW. Since they mostly have absolutely no drive to earn it themselves, taking it away from those who already earned it is the best option.


Haven't you heard? A major airline job is the 'participation' trophy du jour.

And clearly, you must learn to share better....

jcountry
08-06-2018, 07:56 AM
Haven't you heard? A major airline job is the 'participation' trophy du jour.

And clearly, you must learn to share better....

They should all be issued skateboards. I hear they inspire mad trust and confidence amongst the flying public.

ItnStln
08-06-2018, 05:20 PM
Caution: Broad generalization ahead (in response to broad generalization).


Millenials. They want it ALL, and RIGHT NOW. Since they mostly have absolutely no drive to earn it themselves, taking it away from those who already earned it is the best option.

Thatís why I hate being a millennial.

Punkpilot48
08-07-2018, 06:32 PM
Caution: Broad generalization ahead (in response to broad generalization).


Millenials. They want it ALL, and RIGHT NOW. Since they mostly have absolutely no drive to earn it themselves, taking it away from those who already earned it is the best option.

Youíre right I do want it all and right now. I didnít want to be furloughed and had to switch regionals. I didnít want to wait six years to upgrade to captain pay to help deal with my $900/mo student loan. I didnít want to be at my second regional for 12 years. If only I woulda been born 10 years earlier I would be an acceptable member of society.

But telling you to **** off is something I do want to.

Oh sorry. Caution: response to generalization

Also according to rahlifer I shouldnít be able to move up to mainline cause I spent a decade here thanks to age 65 and 2008

CrispyBacon
08-08-2018, 08:45 AM
Caution: Broad generalization ahead (in response to broad generalization).


Millenials. They want it ALL, and RIGHT NOW. Since they mostly have absolutely no drive to earn it themselves, taking it away from those who already earned it is the best option.

I would take the impatient get tuitiveness of a millennial over the petulant self-centered self-righteousness of the boomers any day.

100% ready to over throw ALPA.

rickair7777
08-08-2018, 10:54 AM
I would take the impatient get tuitiveness of a millennial over the petulant self-centered self-righteousness of the boomers any day.


Well yes, If I had to chose between the two that's the way I'd go.

Although you don't really see the worst of either breed in aviation. In fact the best millenials I know are all pilots with fairly old school outlooks and values... and it's paying off big-time for most of them.

CLRtoPush
08-08-2018, 06:22 PM
I would take the impatient get tuitiveness of a millennial over the petulant self-centered self-righteousness of the boomers any day.

100% ready to over throw ALPA.

Gen X Rules!!!!!! Mallrats!!!!

evrbodysmugglin
08-08-2018, 07:46 PM
I thought republic was mainline anyway. Thatís what they all tell us in philly

John Carr
08-09-2018, 09:38 AM
I thought republic was mainline anyway. Thatís what they all tell us in philly

Nope, SkyWest, those guys ARE MAINLINE.

jcountry
08-09-2018, 02:28 PM
Nope, SkyWest, those guys ARE MAINLINE.

Hahahahaha!

Thatís good stuff!



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