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View Full Version : Competitiveness - Non MWS IP


MooseAg03
07-30-2018, 12:35 PM
Gents,

I have a feeling there will soon be quite a few guys in my same boat, so I wanted to pose this question to those who have recently made the jump to the airlines. With the Air Force now requiring ADSCs for any re-qualification or formal upgrade training, I will be separating next year without attaining IP in the C-17 (previous RPA IP).

How competitive would someone be for any of the legacy, Fed Ex, or SWA with only about 2,000 hrs total time with 1,700 of that being C-17 and somewhere between 800-1,000 C-17 PIC? Already have ATP complete. No SAFSO, DO, or any of that experience, just the standard flt/cc and shop chief jobs.

I'm thinking I may have to do a touch and go at a regional to get some 121 time to make myself more competitive, but I do recall seeing a spreadsheet with United airlines hiring data from a few years ago and one of their new hires was a mil guy who had barely over 1,500 hours.

Any info would be appreciated for myself and several bros who will be in the same situation.


BeatNavy
07-30-2018, 12:58 PM
Gents,

I have a feeling there will soon be quite a few guys in my same boat, so I wanted to pose this question to those who have recently made the jump to the airlines. With the Air Force now requiring ADSCs for any re-qualification or formal upgrade training, I will be separating next year without attaining IP in the C-17 (previous RPA IP).

How competitive would someone be for any of the legacy, Fed Ex, or SWA with only about 2,000 hrs total time with 1,700 of that being C-17 and somewhere between 800-1,000 C-17 PIC? Already have ATP complete. No SAFSO, DO, or any of that experience, just the standard flt/cc and shop chief jobs.

I'm thinking I may have to do a touch and go at a regional to get some 121 time to make myself more competitive, but I do recall seeing a spreadsheet with United airlines hiring data from a few years ago and one of their new hires was a mil guy who had barely over 1,500 hours.

Any info would be appreciated for myself and several bros who will be in the same situation.

Most of the 1500 hour guys going straight to majors seem to be fighter broís, but apply everywhere. I have heard of 2-3k heavy guys getting called. Hiring has just started picking up, retirements are just starting, and the pool of qualified mil guys has been draining, so over the next year you may be ok with those times depending on the rest of the resume/app/recency. FWIW, JetBlue has historically advertised competitive mins as 2k for fighter guys, 3-4K for mil transport guys, and 5-6k for civilian guys...canít vouch for other airlines. Apply everywhere, line up a regional (or LCC or cargo) backup job that hopefully you donít have to take. Even if you do, it isnít that bad. First year pay at a regional with the bonuses they are giving out isnít that far behind first year pay at majors. Itís not good, but itís way better than it was a few years ago. And a 121 job/type will help with application points, and itís good experience anyway.

I suggest guard/reserve as well, for the medical, retirement, and safety net, but thatís a personal call that may not be worth it to you and your family. Medical bills can add up though depending on your family size and medical issues, as most airlinesí medical plans arenít that great, and the trend seems to be getting worse.

tunes
07-30-2018, 10:22 PM
If you want to get picked up quicker, a quick stint at a regional would be my recommendation.


Beech Dude
07-30-2018, 10:43 PM
As stated above, apply to all you're interested in. Thanks for the heads up though. I wasn't tracking this AFI re-write at all. If big blue thinks this will help, they're dead wrong; as your decision points out. More guys are going to say no thanks and start the next chapter in their careers.

F15andMD11
08-02-2018, 08:01 AM
...but I do recall seeing a spreadsheet with United airlines hiring data from a few years ago and one of their new hires was a mil guy who had barely over 1,500 hours... Yes, I know one of them. Very low time. BUT...he was a Chief of Safety (COS). That position adds a lot of points to the computer score (at least for UA it does).
Every qual you have adds a certain amount of points. Certainly 1000 PIC adds points, which is the minimum you will need for FedEx. Got a buddy doing to exact same as you, he will soon have the magical 1k PIC. No IP time also so I too will be curious to see what happens.
I do not think you need to go to a regional! Someone will call you, if not your first choice then take the offer and switch companies later.:cool:

Otterbox
08-02-2018, 09:01 AM
Gents,

I have a feeling there will soon be quite a few guys in my same boat, so I wanted to pose this question to those who have recently made the jump to the airlines. With the Air Force now requiring ADSCs for any re-qualification or formal upgrade training, I will be separating next year without attaining IP in the C-17 (previous RPA IP).

How competitive would someone be for any of the legacy, Fed Ex, or SWA with only about 2,000 hrs total time with 1,700 of that being C-17 and somewhere between 800-1,000 C-17 PIC? Already have ATP complete. No SAFSO, DO, or any of that experience, just the standard flt/cc and shop chief jobs.

I'm thinking I may have to do a touch and go at a regional to get some 121 time to make myself more competitive, but I do recall seeing a spreadsheet with United airlines hiring data from a few years ago and one of their new hires was a mil guy who had barely over 1,500 hours.

Any info would be appreciated for myself and several bros who will be in the same situation.

Youíre probably a bit on the lower side hours wise for the big three and Fedex/UPS.

You could use the GI bill for the 737NG type rating before it goes away and youíd probably be in the ballpark to get an interview with SWA.

An ACMI would probably take you immediately, and some of the LCCs would also. Iíd go to any one of them before going to a regional, Unless Fedex/UPS are your #1 choice then Iíd go to a regional and do the 500hr upgrade to Captain for a bit to get more competitive PIC time and try to go the LCA route or hop over to an ACMI for the 74/76 type and experience if they donít hire you directly from an RJ.

ipdanno
08-03-2018, 06:08 AM
Gents, ... With the Air Force now requiring ADSCs for any re-qualification or formal upgrade training, I will be separating next year without attaining IP in the C-17 (previous RPA IP).....

When has Big Blue NOT required ADSCs for any requalification or formal upgrade training? Mind you, I'm ten years retired, but did AF soften up and allow formal training courses without an ADSC? Heresy!

As to your competiveness, you're competitive to get hired somewhere as long as you apply. Somebody will offer you a job, if you don't blow the interview. If that offer isn't your dream job, you can pass-not recommended-or take the job while working on making yourself that much more competitive.
Good luck, Barney Driver. :D

crewdawg
08-03-2018, 06:19 AM
When has Big Blue NOT required ADSCs for any requalification or formal upgrade training? Mind you, I'm ten years retired, but did AF soften up and allow formal training courses without an ADSC? Heresy!

Yes but there used to be a note in the AFI that didn't allow requals to extend someones UPT (10 year) commitment. In a recent update that note was removed... I guess that's one way to try to solve the pilot shortage. Me thinks it will backfire on the AF. Since that release I've had more than a few buddies ping me about ANG/Airlines...many who I never thought would leave the AF.

rickair7777
08-03-2018, 08:31 AM
Yes but there used to be a note in the AFI that didn't allow requals to extend someones UPT (10 year) commitment. In a recent update that note was removed... I guess that's one way to try to solve the pilot shortage. Me thinks it will backfire on the AF. Since that release I've had more than a few buddies ping me about ANG/Airlines...many who I never thought would leave the AF.

That's what bottom feeder regionals used to do... slap a training contract on every type training event.

MooseAg03
08-03-2018, 12:00 PM
Re-quals or Advanced Flying Training like IP upgrade used to not extend beyond the 10 year UPT ADSC, now they do. I would rather take that year to get my kids settled where we want to live while making my own decisions instead of planning my life around Big Blueís whims.

Home for us is SE Texas, so IAH would be the ideal domicile. Hobby (SWA) is a close second. It seems to me the LCCs have higher mins than United, Frontier wants 2,500 min and Spirit wants 2,000 min while all United requires is an un-restricted ATP and 1,000 turbine hours. Would commuting to a Frontier, JetBlue or Spirit base be better than flying for a regional living in base? Iím willing to apply and interview anywhere and everywhere.


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Sliceback
08-03-2018, 01:33 PM
What's the long term goal? If you're taking a long term view and trying to be more competitive for SW/UA/AA I'd go the regional path because it's the quickest way to upgrade. The upgrade, then 500 hrs and then 1000 hrs 121 PIC are the next big boxes you can check if you don't get hired sooner.

Your resume has more value with 121 PIC time than it does with 320 FO time at a job that you hope is a stepping stone to your top 3 (UA/SW/AA) for SE Texas.

My guess is the odds are in your favor of getting a call for one of your top 3 before you upgrade at a regional. I'd prepare for three years at a regional but would hope that it's 1 - 1.5 years at the most. Reserve/ANG duty can help with the $$$. It's a grind but if you're in it for the long haul regional/USAFR/ANG is probably the best path to get one of you top choices.

TankerDriver
08-16-2018, 10:03 AM
I have a few Sq-mates that got jobs with a Legacy in the past year or so with no IP-time and 500-1,000 PIC. It's possible. You won't know unless you try.

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ARAMP1
08-19-2018, 06:38 AM
Worst case scenario, do a touch and go at the regionals. I wouldn’t go back and add the time on to my commitment.

MooseAg03
08-21-2018, 07:18 AM
Thanks for the info. I definitely will not add any time to my commitment, I would rather spend that time flying for a regional than living at the beck and call of the Air Force.


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Han Solo
08-22-2018, 04:03 AM
That is such a USAF answer. Use a sledge hammer to attack a problem that requires tweezers and a scalpel. Instead of trapping pilots with another ADSC they'll instead just run out of IPs when nobody wants to upgrade. Brilliant. I'm sure that idea came from the same a-hole who has been backstabbing his squadron mates for the past 15 years to make O-6 4-BTZ.

BeatNavy
08-22-2018, 07:32 AM
That is such a USAF answer. Use a sledge hammer to attack a problem that requires tweezers and a scalpel. Instead of trapping pilots with another ADSC they'll instead just run out of IPs when nobody wants to upgrade. Brilliant. I'm sure that idea came from the same a-hole who has been backstabbing his squadron mates for the past 15 years to make O-6 4-BTZ.

https://warontherocks.com/2018/08/the-air-force-chief-responds-keep-writing-col-ned-stark-and-join-my-team/

Maybe we will see a change. Or maybe itís lip service. And with a fighter pilot now as the AFPC CC, I hope they fix a lot of the nonsense. But the realist in me thinks the bureaucracy is too strong and the disconnects too large to make any meaningful change where it matters.

Andy
08-24-2018, 12:37 PM
Get out ASAP.

Apply to every airline you WANT to work for.
Then apply to 'safety' airlines. aka Regionals - you will get a job immediately.
Consider Guard/Reserve. It's great for networking, plus it's a good income supplement to regional pay.
Get some professional counseling/interview prep once you've got an interview lined up.

You should be able to get to one your desirable choices fairly quickly.



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