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View Full Version : Scoring The Interview


PDTFlyer
08-01-2018, 09:18 AM
Hello JB Crew, for those that got hired recently, did you use an interview or resume prep company to stand out and if so which one? Trying to make myself as marketable as possible for B6. Thanks!! Any tips or advice is appreciated.


FedUpPayMe
08-01-2018, 09:27 AM
There must be something that B6 is looking for. I can't quite place what it is, though. My buddy has lived in NYC for all this life, and he was hired with 0 TPIC, CRJ type rating, Hispanic (miniority), less than 4000 hours total time. He was lucky in that he had zero LORs and was spared the hassle of going to a job fair. The People's Department must like this type of background.

PasserOGas
08-01-2018, 09:32 AM
There must be something that B6 is looking for. I can't quite place what it is, though. My buddy has lived in NYC for all this life, and he was hired with 0 TPIC, CRJ type rating, Hispanic (miniority), less than 4000 hours total time. He was lucky in that he had zero LORs and was spared the hassle of going to a job fair. The People's Department must like this type of background.

If he had thin, finely man-scaped facial hair he was the holy trinity to HR here.


Bluedriver
08-01-2018, 09:49 AM
There must be something that B6 is looking for. I can't quite place what it is, though. My buddy has lived in NYC for all this life, and he was hired with 0 TPIC, CRJ type rating, Hispanic (miniority), less than 4000 hours total time. He was lucky in that he had zero LORs and was spared the hassle of going to a job fair. The People's Department must like this type of background.

Oh man, I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but you literally just answered your own question. Definitively.

FedUpPayMe
08-01-2018, 09:54 AM
If he had thin, finely man-scaped facial hair he was the holy trinity to HR here.

Haha. Yeah, they also hired four of his buddies for the same class who were also NYC-dwelling, Hispanic low total time regional FOs, so the pattern didn't strike me exactly as coincidental. Just a hunch, but someone who is an average white male coming from the regionals will probably have to jump through a few hoops like job fairs, LORs, flight credentails, extracurricular activism, and union work to go to JetBlue especially now with your new contract.

Bluedriver
08-01-2018, 10:03 AM
Haha. Yeah, they also hired four of his buddies for the same class who were also NYC-dwelling, Hispanic low total time regional FOs, so the pattern didn't strike me exactly as coincidental. Just a hunch, but someone who is an average white male coming from the regionals will probably have to jump through a few hoops like job fairs, LORs, flight credentails, extracurricular activism, and union work to go to JetBlue especially now with your new contract.

Can't tell if you are actually interested, but if you are have you PMd Hyperboy?

PDTFlyer
08-01-2018, 10:05 AM
If he had thin, finely man-scaped facial hair he was the holy trinity to HR here.

Perfect I have time to grow and create that lol.

nuball5
08-01-2018, 10:13 AM
Perfect I have time to grow and create that lol.

I guess no one wants to answer your question. I used Emerald Coast a few years ago. It did a decent job preparing me for the interview. I think that's what most people use for prep.

FedUpPayMe
08-01-2018, 10:15 AM
Can't tell if you are actually interested, but if you are have you PMd Hyperboy?

Yes certainly, I am interested in working for JetBlue as a Florida-based pilot. So I wish good luck to all. And no I haven't PMed anyone.

PDTFlyer
08-01-2018, 10:19 AM
I guess no one wants to answer your question. I used Emerald Coast a few years ago. It did a decent job preparing me for the interview. I think that's what most people use for prep.

Thank you! Will get that started!

Bluedriver
08-01-2018, 10:26 AM
PM Hyperboy. I personally didn't use an interview prep company, but I'm sure it's helpful. You first need to actually score an interview.

Make sure you update your times regularly, they like to see you actively updating times because it shows more interest in the company.

Whether you do an interview prep or not, have a good answer to the question "why JetBlue". They will ask it at the interview, probably more than once. They will also likely ask that question when they call you to consider you for an interview, so have a good answer ready.

Also, put your previous house-cleaning experience on the application. It helps with our "all crew members are expected to clean while commuting/non-revenue" policy.

Good luck.

BeatNavy
08-01-2018, 10:38 AM
Thank you! Will get that started!

I did EC after I had started at JB when I was going to go elsewhere but ended up never using my $400 of interview prep. My experience is that thereís enough gouge online for free, and had I done EC before my JB interview it wouldnít have helped. I recommend to my friends coming here to learn about the company (financial statements and Wikipedia), read the willflyforfood profiles to get some gouge, use the SAR format when answering questions, and be yourself. Maybe just look up generic interview advice. Itís not rocket science. If you show you are prepared and knowledgeable about the company and are a good guy, the job is yours to lose.

Be honest, be positive, and relax. If you donít think you are a good interviewer or want to maximize your opportunity, then do EC or one of those. But I donít think itís necessary. Good luck.

Rabid Seagull
08-01-2018, 10:44 AM
There must be something that B6 is looking for. I can't quite place what it is, though. My buddy has lived in NYC for all this life, and he was hired with 0 TPIC, CRJ type rating, Hispanic (miniority), less than 4000 hours total time. He was lucky in that he had zero LORs and was spared the hassle of going to a job fair. The People's Department must like this type of background.

I like the bit, "Hispanic (miniority)". Maybe you haven't been called because you put "White (majority)" on your app?


p.s. your buddy probably spelled "minority" correctly.

bh5311
08-01-2018, 10:55 AM
So if I can pass as hispanic but I'm 99% european should I just put hispanic on my app?

todd1200
08-01-2018, 10:56 AM
Haha. Yeah, they also hired four of his buddies for the same class who were also NYC-dwelling, Hispanic low total time regional FOs, so the pattern didn't strike me exactly as coincidental. Just a hunch, but someone who is an average white male coming from the regionals will probably have to jump through a few hoops like job fairs, LORs, flight credentails, extracurricular activism, and union work to go to JetBlue especially now with your new contract.

The pictures of our new-hire classes simply donít bear out your assumption. I know 90% of my class didnít check any ďdiversityĒ boxes, so if you want the job, do whatís in your control to make yourself marketable and donít try to project any shortcomings onto those who get called.

GuppyPuppy
08-01-2018, 11:17 AM
There must be something that B6 is looking for. I can't quite place what it is, though. My buddy has lived in NYC for all this life, and he was hired with 0 TPIC, CRJ type rating, Hispanic (miniority), less than 4000 hours total time. He was lucky in that he had zero LORs and was spared the hassle of going to a job fair. The People's Department must like this type of background.

https://youtu.be/r8sNXgoKt0Q

New gouge.

pilotpayne
08-01-2018, 11:32 AM
The pictures of our new-hire classes simply donít bear out your assumption. I know 90% of my class didnít check any ďdiversityĒ boxes, so if you want the job, do whatís in your control to make yourself marketable and donít try to project any shortcomings onto those who get called.

Maybe that is why giggity is all about a more diverse jetblue.

INVERTED
08-01-2018, 04:36 PM
FYI for those applying.

I passed the video interview and submitted the flight addendum. I received an email to expect an in person interview invite towards the later part of September.

6600TT
(half mil helo & half civ & mil Fixed Wing)
1400 TPIC (non 121)
Masters Degree
Previous Regional 121
Current Part 91 corporate
Previous Part 91 CP
Current mil fixed wing
No JB LORs, external only.
I know no one at JB.

Bluedriver
08-01-2018, 05:23 PM
FYI for those applying.

I passed the video interview and submitted the flight addendum. I received an email to expect an in person interview invite towards the later part of September.

6600TT
(half mil helo & half civ & mil Fixed Wing)
1400 TPIC (non 121)
Masters Degree
Previous Regional 121
Current Part 91 corporate
Previous Part 91 CP
Current mil fixed wing
No JB LORs, external only.
I know no one at JB.

Good luck, we're all counting on you.

MGMTiswatchingU
08-01-2018, 05:24 PM
I like the bit, "Hispanic (miniority)". Maybe you haven't been called because you put "White (majority)" on your app?


p.s. your buddy probably spelled "minority" correctly.

It's interesting isn't it? How FedUpPayMe dropped that lil gem in there beside "Hispanic". Even more interesting, everyone else (except you of course) just stepped pass it like it's perfectly acceptable.

Let's avoid the elephant. Smh. Pathetic

PasserOGas
08-02-2018, 04:28 AM
It's interesting isn't it? How FedUpPayMe dropped that lil gem in there beside "Hispanic". Even more interesting, everyone else (except you of course) just stepped pass it like it's perfectly acceptable.

Let's avoid the elephant. Smh. Pathetic

Uh, airlines hire preferentially based on race and gender. Specifically if you are a woman or minority you will get hired with lower qualifications. It's a statistical fact.

Now, there are many more white, male pilots, but we tend to get hired with more time and more hoops to jump through.

There is no OBAP, WAI, or GPA with all the recruiters there for us.

hyperboy
08-02-2018, 04:42 AM
Uh, airlines hire preferentially based on race and gender. Specifically if you are a woman or minority you will get hired with lower qualifications. It's a statistical fact.

Now, there are many more white, male pilots, but we tend to get hired with more time and more hoops to jump through.

There is no OBAP, WAI, or GPA with all the recruiters there for us.


Sorry you are wrong and this is called discrimination.

CrispyBacon
08-02-2018, 04:45 AM
This is why I need to legally change my name to Shanequa. Maybe, my app will get a review then....:mad:

GuppyPuppy
08-02-2018, 04:58 AM
Sorry you are wrong and this is called discrimination.

Fly a trip with me and I think I can explain what he is saying and why.

Gup

todd1200
08-02-2018, 12:03 PM
This is why I need to legally change my name to Shanequa. Maybe, my app will get a review then....:mad:

Sounds like you have bigger issues than your name that are holding you back.

Bozo the pilot
08-02-2018, 12:15 PM
Uh, airlines hire preferentially based on race and gender. Specifically if you are a woman or minority you will get hired with lower qualifications. It's a statistical fact.

Now, there are many more white, male pilots, but we tend to get hired with more time and more hoops to jump through.

There is no OBAP, WAI, or GPA with all the recruiters there for us.

With you all the way Pog. Great point.

Bozo the pilot
08-02-2018, 12:16 PM
Sorry you are wrong and this is called discrimination.

He's right HB. Its just a fact. Not judging, just observing.

CrispyBacon
08-02-2018, 12:27 PM
Sounds like you have bigger issues than your name that are holding you back.

True, but you would never guess just how screwed up I am by looking at me or my application. ;):D

MGMTiswatchingU
08-02-2018, 12:39 PM
Uh, airlines hire preferentially based on race and gender. Specifically if you are a woman or minority you will get hired with lower qualifications. It's a statistical fact.

Now, there are many more white, male pilots, but we tend to get hired with more time and more hoops to jump through.

There is no OBAP, WAI, or GPA with all the recruiters there for us.

I'm sorry but a Hispanic can be just as qualified or MORE than the next guy. I refuse your observation. They're just labels. Because one is birthed as a hispanic he/she is automatically regarded as a minority. Smh. Again, Pathetic.

But you'll never understand.

Gordie H
08-02-2018, 01:37 PM
This is why I need to legally change my name to Shanequa. Maybe, my app will get a review then....:mad:Dude, you might want to reconsider your applicationÖjust donít think youíd be happy here. Besides, did you know Delta new hires get issued brand new Maseratiís? Jet Blue pilots get crappy used 1980ís Toyota pickup (with camel in the back)Ö.reference the other thread :p

Gordie H
08-02-2018, 01:41 PM
Uh, airlines hire preferentially based on race and gender. Specifically if you are a woman or minority you will get hired with lower qualifications. It's a statistical fact.

Now, there are many more white, male pilots, but we tend to get hired with more time and more hoops to jump through.

There is no OBAP, WAI, or GPA with all the recruiters there for us.This post comes off as if you personally are at some kind of disadvantage getting hired by a legacy these daysÖbeing a white male and all. Iím assuming you are (or were) a military tanker pilot? Everyone I know (military aviation) has at minimum, gotten a legacy interview. Half my old squadron is at Delta (which includes many white guys with relatively low hours / average records, etc)Ö.

Do you think youíre disadvantaged?

seekingblue
08-02-2018, 02:47 PM
This post comes off as if you personally are at some kind of disadvantage getting hired by a legacy these daysÖbeing a white male and all. Iím assuming you are (or were) a military tanker pilot? Everyone I know (military aviation) has at minimum, gotten a legacy interview. Half my old squadron is at Delta (which includes many white guys with relatively low hours / average records, etc)Ö.

Do you think youíre disadvantaged?

Sooooo......

Back to helping guys who want to work here.

PDTFlyer
08-02-2018, 03:07 PM
Sooooo......

Back to helping guys who want to work here.

Thank you!!

PasserOGas
08-02-2018, 03:31 PM
I'm sorry but a Hispanic can be just as qualified or MORE than the next guy. I refuse your observation. They're just labels. Because one is birthed as a hispanic he/she is automatically regarded as a minority. Smh. Again, Pathetic.

But you'll never understand.


Ok. You misunderstand my point. No doubt there are superior female and minority pilots. Most are just normal. I am not making a qualitative judgment about their flying skills. I am stating a fact. Women/minorities are being preferentially interviewed and hired by ALL major airlines. If this is news to you I don't know where you have been.

There is a reason why literally everyone was sending recruiters to OBAP and WAI and then stopped when all the white guys started crashing the party.

Yes it is discrimination. Whether it's wrong or not seems to depend on your world view.

PSU Flyer
08-02-2018, 03:46 PM
Sorry you are wrong and this is called discrimination.

I think you mean affirmative action.

PSU Flyer
08-02-2018, 03:51 PM
This post comes off as if you personally are at some kind of disadvantage getting hired by a legacy these daysÖbeing a white male and all. Iím assuming you are (or were) a military tanker pilot? Everyone I know (military aviation) has at minimum, gotten a legacy interview. Half my old squadron is at Delta (which includes many white guys with relatively low hours / average records, etc)Ö.

Do you think youíre disadvantaged?


Just curious why youíre not at Delta or another legacy if itís so easy for military guys? Were you military but not a flyer? I know quite a few military guys that canít get called by any legacies. Especially active reservists.

Fleet Warp
08-02-2018, 05:14 PM
I think you mean affirmative action.

Affirmative action is a fancy sounding politically correct form of DISCRIMINATION.

PSU Flyer
08-02-2018, 06:19 PM
Affirmative action is a fancy sounding politically correct form of DISCRIMINATION.

I agree completely. Just pointing out that when a minority is ďdiscriminatedĒ against, itís often viewed as DISCRIMINATION with a negative connotation. When a majority class is ďdiscriminatedĒ against, itís often viewed as AFFIRMATIVE ACTION which, to some people, has a positive connotation. If a white male doesnít get a job, for example, no one really calls it discrimination. The point is, that both ways are discrimination. One is just more ďacceptableĒ to some people. The whole thing is rather stupid if you ask me. Just hire people or treat people based on their qualifications and not on their race, gender, religion, etc. It really isnít that hard.

MGMTiswatchingU
08-02-2018, 07:01 PM
......Just hire people or treat people based on their qualifications and not on their race, gender, religion, etc. It really isnít that hard.

I agree. Hire based on quals, leave "my race" alone. The race have nothing to do with 5000TT+

hyperboy
08-02-2018, 07:17 PM
He's right HB. Its just a fact. Not judging, just observing.

There is no way to know any of this information on the application. So whats a fact?:confused:

Southerner
08-02-2018, 07:26 PM
He's right HB. Its just a fact. Not judging, just observing.

Actually, he's incorrect. EEOC is measured not by qualification, but rather by determining what percentage of the population were hired. You shouldn't see a dramatic difference in the percentage of men hired versus women hired. The selection of interviewees is the same regardless of gender. To determine compliance with the law, JetBlue must show that there isn't a significant difference in hiring stats for the protected classes.

PSU Flyer
08-02-2018, 07:46 PM
Actually, he's incorrect. EEOC is measured not by qualification, but rather by determining what percentage of the population were hired. You shouldn't see a dramatic difference in the percentage of men hired versus women hired. The selection of interviewees is the same regardless of gender. To determine compliance with the law, JetBlue must show that there isn't a significant difference in hiring stats for the protected classes.

Iím not following you here. Are you saying that if 90 men and 10 women apply for 10 jobs, then 5 men and 5 women should be hired? It doesnít matter what percentages are in the general population, it matters what the percentage of the applicants are. At least, thatís the logical or mathematical answer. In the above scenario, statistics say that 9 men and 1 woman should be hired, all things being equal. That way, everyone (both the men and the women) have a 10% chance of being hired. Based on that pool, and of course equal qualifications, you donít hire 5 men and 5 women because the general population is 50/50.

Maybe I just misunderstood your post, because there should definitely be a higher percentage of men in a class then women since the applicant pool presumably has a much greater percentage of men. Iím in no way saying that people should be hired based on the makeup of the applicant pool. Iím just saying that statistically, thatís what will happen on its own.

Gordie H
08-02-2018, 08:25 PM
Just curious why youíre not at Delta or another legacy if itís so easy for military guys? Were you military but not a flyer? I know quite a few military guys that canít get called by any legacies. Especially active reservists.Yeah fair question & yes, flew AF. And the answer is Iím happy here for the most part and so not trying to leave (and not complaining).

If your buds are relatively new military aviators then yeah they might have to build up some time, get some quals, first. The folks Iím talking about have 7 - 10 years (plus) experienceÖsome spent a bit of time at the regional too. Iím assuming the guy I was responding to (Passer) also has plenty of experience (mil, 121, Bus type, etc.)Ö

And I never said it was ďeasyĒ for anyone. Guys still have to go to job fairs, do the interview prep, spend time on the apps, etc.

Gordie H
08-02-2018, 08:28 PM
Sooooo......

Back to helping guys who want to work here.

Lol, ok, point taken Sir :)

PasserOGas
08-03-2018, 02:41 AM
Actually, he's incorrect. EEOC is measured not by qualification, but rather by determining what percentage of the population were hired. You shouldn't see a dramatic difference in the percentage of men hired versus women hired. The selection of interviewees is the same regardless of gender. To determine compliance with the law, JetBlue must show that there isn't a significant difference in hiring stats for the protected classes.

At UAL they were found to be in violation for not hiring 50% women. Nevermind that probably only 10% of applicants are women. This is why if you are female and meet minimum qualifications you pretty much have the job there. Just one example.

Have you looked around jetblue? The pilots tend to be white males, but the rest of the airline is majority Hispanic. They definitely recruit this group. I personally don't care, as it makes business sense considering all the Latin America flying we do.

This place discriminates. Just like they all do. It's social justice at work.

Southerner
08-03-2018, 07:54 AM
At UAL they were found to be in violation for not hiring 50% women. Nevermind that probably only 10% of applicants are women. This is why if you are female and meet minimum qualifications you pretty much have the job there. Just one example.

Have you looked around jetblue? The pilots tend to be white males, but the rest of the airline is majority Hispanic. They definitely recruit this group. I personally don't care, as it makes business sense considering all the Latin America flying we do.

This place discriminates. Just like they all do. It's social justice at work.

I don't know that particular case, but I suspect that you misunderstood it. Employers are not required to hire 50% men and 50% women. They are required to be able to show that they do not discriminate on the basis of sex, which means that their stats have to show that of the people who applied, they do not discriminate against a protected class. You can't be sued for not hiring people who don't apply.

In other words, if 90% of those who apply are men, and 10% are women, that is fine. What is NOT fine is if 80% of the men who apply are hired, and 20% of the women who apply are hired.

The company must be able to show that of the protected classes who applied, the appropriate percentages are successful. Does that make sense?

Bozo the pilot
08-03-2018, 04:25 PM
I don't know that particular case, but I suspect that you misunderstood it. Employers are not required to hire 50% men and 50% women. They are required to be able to show that they do not discriminate on the basis of sex, which means that their stats have to show that of the people who applied, they do not discriminate against a protected class. You can't be sued for not hiring people who don't apply.

In other words, if 90% of those who apply are men, and 10% are women, that is fine. What is NOT fine is if 80% of the men who apply are hired, and 20% of the women who apply are hired.

The company must be able to show that of the protected classes who applied, the appropriate percentages are successful. Does that make sense?
The theory is sound, the practice is suspect.

Bozo the pilot
08-03-2018, 04:32 PM
There is no way to know any of this information on the application. So whats a fact?:confused:

The number of less qualified individuals hired based on things not experiential is a fact.
I know 5 individuals myself who should have had to amass at least 2000 more hours to even be considered borderline candidates-They were hired years before 6000+ TT experienced people were overlooked.
Bias, plain and simple.

Southerner
08-04-2018, 12:29 AM
The theory is sound, the practice is suspect.

I'm just saying that's how the system works. So for instance, at my last airline we had to prove that our hiring percentages didn't change. If for the past 10 years we had hired 6% women, if it changed to 2%, we were in trouble. So once a year, we had to take all of the surveys that get submitted during the application, compare those to the applicant's record to see if they were hired, then throw that into a spreadsheet. It would show what percentage of applicants were successful/unsuccessful from each protected class.

I suspect that "real" airlines do this monthly or in some other organized way. For my regional it was always something that was an afterthought... "oh crap, someone go through the EEOC surveys and throw it all into a spreadsheet."

symbian simian
08-04-2018, 11:33 AM
At UAL they were found to be in violation for not hiring 50% women. Nevermind that probably only 10% of applicants are women. This is why if you are female and meet minimum qualifications you pretty much have the job there. Just one example.

Have you looked around jetblue? The pilots tend to be white males, but the rest of the airline is majority Hispanic. They definitely recruit this group. I personally don't care, as it makes business sense considering all the Latin America flying we do.

This place discriminates. Just like they all do. It's social justice at work.

Not really, UAL was supposed to hire females at double the application rate, compared to males. So 1000 pilots apply for 100 jobs, 50 applicants are female (less then 4% of atps are female), at least 10 hires female, class is still 90% male. UAL didnít comply, and hired 4% female, which was LESS than the application ratio. Off course these numbers are not corrected for experience, but to state that any female with an ATP got hired when they hired less than 60 out of more than 1600 is very disingenuous.



In a motion filed in U.S. District Court in Chicago, the commission charged that United has failed to abide by a 1976 consent decree in which the airline agreed to hire qualified minority and women pilots at double the rate at which they applied for the jobs in relation to white males.

Based on data provided by the company, the EEOC said United received more than 32,500 applications for entry-level pilot positions between 1985 and 1987.

Among the 1,400 pilots hired, 75 were blacks or other minorities and 59 were women--a ratio smaller than the share of blacks and women in the pool of applicants, the commission said.

PasserOGas
08-04-2018, 03:13 PM
Not really, UAL was supposed to hire females at double the application rate, compared to males. So 1000 pilots apply for 100 jobs, 50 applicants are female (less then 4% of atps are female), at least 10 hires female, class is still 90% male. UAL didnít comply, and hired 4% female, which was LESS than the application ratio. Off course these numbers are not corrected for experience, but to state that any female with an ATP got hired when they hired less than 60 out of more than 1600 is very disingenuous.



In a motion filed in U.S. District Court in Chicago, the commission charged that United has failed to abide by a 1976 consent decree in which the airline agreed to hire qualified minority and women pilots at double the rate at which they applied for the jobs in relation to white males.

Based on data provided by the company, the EEOC said United received more than 32,500 applications for entry-level pilot positions between 1985 and 1987.

Among the 1,400 pilots hired, 75 were blacks or other minorities and 59 were women--a ratio smaller than the share of blacks and women in the pool of applicants, the commission said.

Sounds like you know more about it. Same idea, hire women and minorities at double the application rate will cause the company to hire less qualified people. My point, that women/minorities have a leg up in this business still stands.

symbian simian
08-04-2018, 04:07 PM
Sounds like you know more about it. Same idea, hire women and minorities at double the application rate will cause the company to hire less qualified people. My point, that women/minorities have a leg up in this business still stands.

I'm a white male. Trained together with an older female. She told me she always wanted to be a pilot, got her license, and worked for Lufthansa as a flight attendant for 20 years because back then they didn't hire females. For decades it was unheard of for females to be pilots. In most traditionally male jobs like doctor, ATC that has changed. Even aircraft mechanic have a higher rate of females than airline pilots. For some reason there is not many females going into aviation. My competition for a job is another white guy. As long as the female pilot is qualified I really don't care. It is not like companies hire the most qualified (as in not total time) anyway, they hire who they want. Off the 10 or so FOs I flew with that left for legacies, most had no/barely PIC, all the 10 year ex-regional captains can't get an interview....

Southerner
08-04-2018, 05:06 PM
Sounds like you know more about it. Same idea, hire women and minorities at double the application rate will cause the company to hire less qualified people. My point, that women/minorities have a leg up in this business still stands.

1. You are making a false comparison. Even if we assume that women/minorities have a "leg up," that doesn't mean that the ones they hire are not qualified. That's why there is a minimum qualification to get hired. If you think that airlines always hire the person (white dude or otherwise) with the most hours, you're sorely mistaken. (And hours are a terrible way to measure qualification anyway, but that's a whole other discussion.)

2. You're missing the point entirely. It is white men who have the "leg up." Therefore the Federal Government has to step in to give those in the protected classes a fair chance. If the government didn't protect those groups, there would be FAR fewer (if any) of those groups in the industry. The only reason that airlines stopped hiring white men exclusively is that the government forced them to do so.

PasserOGas
08-05-2018, 03:36 AM
1. You are making a false comparison. Even if we assume that women/minorities have a "leg up," that doesn't mean that the ones they hire are not qualified. That's why there is a minimum qualification to get hired. If you think that airlines always hire the person (white dude or otherwise) with the most hours, you're sorely mistaken. (And hours are a terrible way to measure qualification anyway, but that's a whole other discussion.)

2. You're missing the point entirely. It is white men who have the "leg up." Therefore the Federal Government has to step in to give those in the protected classes a fair chance. If the government didn't protect those groups, there would be FAR fewer (if any) of those groups in the industry. The only reason that airlines stopped hiring white men exclusively is that the government forced them to do so.

1. My point was that they get hired with fewer qualifications than white males (often minimally), not that they aren't qualified.

2. Explain please. I am a white male raised by a single mother. I basically come from nothing. Please tell me what leg up I had in getting a flying job versus a white female. Then explain again using a racial minority.

I get history. But this kind of stuff is why people voted for Trump.

That being said, I am advising my daughter to be a pilot. She could be at United making more than me in just 2 years. You know, because of all her "disadvantages". :rolleyes:

I you really want to help the disadvantaged get a leg up, base hiring on their parents net worth. That wouldn't be as openly racist and sexist.

GuppyPuppy
08-05-2018, 03:45 AM
Deleted for fear of the Thought Police.

Gup

Southerner
08-05-2018, 09:34 AM
1. My point was that they get hired with fewer qualifications than white males (often minimally), not that they aren't qualified.

2. Explain please. I am a white male raised by a single mother. I basically come from nothing. Please tell me what leg up I had in getting a flying job versus a white female. Then explain again using a racial minority.

I get history. But this kind of stuff is why people voted for Trump.

That being said, I am advising my daughter to be a pilot. She could be at United making more than me in just 2 years. You know, because of all her "disadvantages". :rolleyes:

I you really want to help the disadvantaged get a leg up, base hiring on their parents net worth. That wouldn't be as openly racist and sexist.

On average, a white male has an advantage over minority groups. The fact that you had fewer advantages that your average peer, well, that doesn't change the fact that the group as a whole has those advantages. Plus, if you don't understand that the very fact that you're a white male gives you advantages in itself, well, there's not much hope for this discussion. It's amazing to me that people are unwilling to accept that they had advantages. It makes no sense to me.

And as far as history goes, if we axed all of the protections that the protected groups get, in less than a year we would be well on our way to the old status quo.





You may have seen the video below, or maybe not. But take a look.

Here is a quote from an article discussing the video:

The experiment itself was explicit in making everyone involved acknowledge the advantage some people have over others, most of the time through no fault of their own, but through what they were born into.

It’s not to demonize privilege, but to make those at an advantage acknowledge the head start life gave them.

https://youtu.be/vwx5IvypC5Q

pilotpayne
08-05-2018, 09:47 AM
On average, a white male has an advantage over minority groups. The fact that you had fewer advantages that your average peer, well, that doesn't change the fact that the group as a whole has those advantages. Plus, if you don't understand that the very fact that you're a white male gives you advantages in itself, well, there's not much hope for this discussion. It's amazing to me that people are unwilling to accept that they had advantages. It makes no sense to me.

And as far as history goes, if we axed all of the protections that the protected groups get, in less than a year we would be well on our way to the old status quo.





You may have seen the video below, or maybe not. But take a look.

Here is a quote from an article discussing the video:


https://youtu.be/vwx5IvypC5Q

Oh please spare me southerner.

Southerner
08-05-2018, 09:52 AM
Oh please spare me southerner.

Spare you facts? Um. No thanks. I prefer to understand the world rather than live in a reality bubble.

Blue Dude
08-05-2018, 10:28 AM
Mmkay, so at what point do you take your thumb back off the scale, recognizing that none of us starts from the same place in life, we are all unique in capacity and capability? Sounds like you're more interested in equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity.

CrispyBacon
08-05-2018, 10:33 AM
On average, a white male has an advantage over minority groups. The fact that you had fewer advantages that your average peer, well, that doesn't change the fact that the group as a whole has those advantages. Plus, if you don't understand that the very fact that you're a white male gives you advantages in itself, well, there's not much hope for this discussion. It's amazing to me that people are unwilling to accept that they had advantages. It makes no sense to me.

And as far as history goes, if we axed all of the protections that the protected groups get, in less than a year we would be well on our way to the old status quo.





You may have seen the video below, or maybe not. But take a look.

Here is a quote from an article discussing the video:


https://youtu.be/vwx5IvypC5Q


What advantage is there to being white? unlimited free scholarships. NO.

Dont preach that white America bull****. Especially with some racist dramatization video about being white. If it just so happens that whites are more likely to stay married, stay employed, not treat children like ATM machines, raise their children in a safe household, not participate in crime; then guess what your the racist for believing it.

The more you "give" a group of people the more they "expect". Idiots and your racist propaganda acting like white are the racists. Sick of listening to morons say that some super sekrit organization is sekritly helping whites out through life. If you believe in god, then blame him for giving all the good resource spawns and the ability to unlock them to Europe.

Southerner
08-05-2018, 10:44 AM
Mmkay, so at what point do you take your thumb back off the scale, recognizing that none of us starts from the same place in life, we are all unique in capacity and capability? Sounds like you're more interested in equality of outcome, not equality of opportunity.

When the average black dude has the same opportunity as an average white dude, fine. We aren't there. Not even close.

Southerner
08-05-2018, 10:49 AM
What advantage is there to being white? unlimited free scholarships. NO.

Dont preach that white America bull****. Especially with some racist dramatization video about being white. If it just so happens that whites are more likely to stay married, stay employed, not treat children like ATM machines, raise their children in a safe household, not participate in crime; then guess what your the racist for believing it.

The more you "give" a group of people the more they "expect". Idiots and your racist propaganda acting like white are the racists. Sick of listening to morons say that some super sekrit organization is sekritly helping whites out through life. If you believe in god, then blame him for giving all the good resource spawns and the ability to unlock them to Europe.

There's no secret organization. The bias comes in that certain groups have always been downtrodden, and continue to struggle (on average).

Nice try to throw the racism over to me. Your intent is clear with your last sentence though... You feel that you deserve better because you were born white. To paraphrase your statement, "God gave me the right to be white and to succeed." Got it.

hilltopflyer
08-05-2018, 10:53 AM
There's no secret organization. The bias comes in that certain groups have always been downtrodden, and continue to struggle on average.

Nice try to throw the racism over to me. Your intent is clear with your last sentence though... You feel that you deserve better because you were born white. To paraphrase your statement, "God gave me the right to be white and to succeed." Got it.

Whatís funny is my uncle is Black his kids are black but he was a good hearted man who put his family first and struggled and got a job and provided for his family before he passed. He showed his kids how to be a member of society and they prospered. They didnít prosper or fail because of their skin color but because their dad (who grew up in a single Mom household broke) applied himself and showed his family how a really family is supposed to act.

Southerner
08-05-2018, 10:56 AM
Whatís funny is my uncle is Black his kids are black but he was a good hearted man who put his family first and struggled and got a job and provided for his family before he passed. He showed his kids how to be a member of society and they prospered. They didnít prosper or fail because of their skin color but because their dad (who grew up in a single Mom household broke) applied himself and showed his family how a really family is supposed to act.

Sure. And those kids were lucky that they had someone like him in their lives. But that doesn't mean that they didn't have greater obstacles to overcome than others in the exact same situation.

We can discuss the various extents that biases have waxed or waned. But what isn't up for debate is the fact that entire groups of people have more obstacles than others. That fact is evident in nearly every social metric.

CrispyBacon
08-05-2018, 10:57 AM
When the average black dude has the same opportunity as an average white dude, fine. We aren't there. Not even close.

You're an idiot. Congratulations! People like you have lowered the standard of everyone in America by reducing everything to some maj-acle privilege of race.

CrispyBacon
08-05-2018, 10:58 AM
Whatís funny is my uncle is Black his kids are black but he was a good hearted man who put his family first and struggled and got a job and provided for his family before he passed. He showed his kids how to be a member of society and they prospered. They didnít prosper or fail because of their skin color but because their dad (who grew up in a single Mom household broke) applied himself and showed his family how a really family is supposed to act.

This ^^^^^^^^^^

hilltopflyer
08-05-2018, 11:01 AM
Sure. And those kids were lucky that they had someone like him in their lives. But that doesn't mean that they didn't have greater obstacles to overcome than others in the exact same situation.

We can discuss the various extents that biases have waxed or waned. But what isn't up for debate is the fact that entire groups of people have more obstacles than others. That fact is evident in nearly every social metric.

But the only obstacle he had was growing up in a single parent home broke. He applied himself because he didnít want to do that to his kids. It wasnít cause he was a black man. It was his own determination.

Blue Dude
08-05-2018, 11:26 AM
When the average black dude has the same opportunity as an average white dude, fine. We aren't there. Not even close.

Define "opportunity". What can the average white guy do that the average black guy can't?

Southerner
08-05-2018, 11:33 AM
But the only obstacle he had was growing up in a single parent home broke. He applied himself because he didn’t want to do that to his kids. It wasn’t cause he was a black man. It was his own determination.

No doubt he worked hard. But the obstacles he faced were significant, and more than the average white dude had to face. That's all I'm saying.

Take a look at this screenshot from a study comparing the relative stats of various groups. Whites aren't the highest, (Asian-Americans are), but other groups have larger obstacles.

All I'm saying is that we should recognize that biases exist. It's amazing to be that this is even a discussion.



http://www.aecf.org/m/resourcedoc/aecf-2017raceforresults-2017.pdf

I can't fix the images, but if you go to page 28 in the link above, you'll see what I mean.

Blue Dude
08-05-2018, 11:41 AM
So, you're claiming that the disparity of outcome of entire racial groups is caused primarily by external discrimination on racial grounds, and not due to the behaviors and performance of the individuals involved?

PSU Flyer
08-05-2018, 11:56 AM
Southerner,

How do you know what obstacles the average white guy and average minority dealt with or overcame? Before you answer, remember that weíre not talking about general society in this discussion. Weíre talking about hiring pilots. If my black friend, my female friend, and I are all applying for a position at Delta, how do YOU know who had more obstacles to overcome? Apparently, you think the black guy and the female should be given a ďleg upĒ because theyíre minorities. What if my black friendís dad was a doctor and my mother was a single mom working nights at a hospital when I grew up? He was a Cosby kid and I was Eminem. What if the female was my sister and had the exact same life situation as me? What if all three of us went to the Air Force Academy together and just got done with our 10 year USAF commitments? Are they really at a disadvantage because theyíre minorities? How do you decide how much advantage to give someone? Is there a scale? Single parent - 10 points. Black - 7 points. Asian - 6 points. Poor - 12 points. Otherwise, how do YOU rank the applicants? Obviously, the gay, Muslim, black female is first, but where do the other ďminoritiesĒ fit in? Is the black guy above or below the female? What about an Asian guy? Do we even need to look at their qualifications or just their background?

You are advocating discrimination, pure and simple. If it wasnít for in-person interviews, the company should have no idea what your race and gender are. Do you know why? Because they should have ZERO impact on you getting hired.

symbian simian
08-05-2018, 11:59 AM
No doubt he worked hard. But the obstacles he faced were significant, and more than the average white dude had to face. That's all I'm saying.

Take a look at this screenshot from a study comparing the relative stats of various groups. Whites aren't the highest, (Asian-Americans are), but other groups have larger obstacles.

All I'm saying is that we should recognize that biases exist. It's amazing to be that this is even a discussion.

***edit of course the image isn't legible. I'm on my phone away from a computer. But it's from page 28:

http://www.aecf.org/m/resourcedoc/aecf-2017raceforresults-2017.pdf

Although I mostly agree with you that we can do more, and I am not against "reverse" discrimination. Reading the last few pages, some replies to you make me want to wash my eyes... Having said that, I do think some of the reason some groups do better is somewhat self inflicted. As you say Asian-Americans do better than North-west-European-Americans (why is ok to say white, but yellow and black are offensive?). Most of those came here without a penny to their name, worked on the railroads, were interned in camps with their possessions lost, and managed to come out ahead due to strong family bonds and work ethics. There needs to be some culture changes in the groups who lag, otherwise you are only providing hand-outs without solving the underlying issue. "They" feel "we" owe "Them", and a lot of "Us" feel we have done enough.

Southerner
08-05-2018, 12:10 PM
So, you're claiming that the disparity of outcome of entire racial groups is caused primarily by external discrimination on racial grounds, and not due to the behaviors and performance of the individuals involved?

I'm saying that the performance and behaviors of the individuals involved is shaped and formed largely from the socioeconomic situation that they find themselves in. I'm saying that it is difficult for an entire class of people to overcome centuries of discrimination and outright obstruction.

Southerner
08-05-2018, 12:18 PM
Although I mostly agree with you that we can do more, and I am not against "reverse" discrimination. Reading the last few pages, some replies to you make me want to wash my eyes... Having said that, I do think some of the reason some groups do better is somewhat self inflicted. As you say Asian-Americans do better than North-west-European-Americans (why is ok to say white, but yellow and black are offensive?). Most of those came here without a penny to their name, worked on the railroads, were interned in camps with their possessions lost, and managed to come out ahead due to strong family bonds and work ethics. There needs to be some culture changes in the groups who lag, otherwise you are only providing hand-outs without solving the underlying issue. "They" feel "we" owe "Them", and a lot of "Us" feel we have done enough.

Yeah, it is a complicated issue. Unfortunately, we have transitioned into a very sad time in our nation's history, when people are more interested in "getting theirs" than making our society better. Great strides were made in the 1960s and early 1970s. But since the late 1970s when wages started to become flat, and running a business became more about what the company can do for the shareholders than for the workers, we started to stumble. The average American has fallen backwards, and those of lower socioeconomic status have tumbled farther. The middle class is going away.

Of course, that's a related, but separate discussion...

Blue Dude
08-05-2018, 12:36 PM
I'm saying that the performance and behaviors of the individuals involved is shaped and formed largely from the socioeconomic situation that they find themselves in. I'm saying that it is difficult for an entire class of people to overcome centuries of discrimination and outright obstruction.

Then we should give hiring preference based on what socioeconomic status you were born into? Great, there are a bunch of white Appalachian kids raised by single moms who need a leg up over suburban kids (including black kids) from 2 parent family upper middle class households. But that's not what you had in mind, was it?

pilotpayne
08-05-2018, 06:07 PM
Spare you facts? Um. No thanks. I prefer to understand the world rather than live in a reality bubble.

Oh you have your own bubble. What would I know I was just given everything.:(
(Still paying off my Aviation loan)

hilltopflyer
08-05-2018, 06:14 PM
Oh you have your own bubble. What would I know I was just given everything.:(
(Still paying off my Aviation loan)

What?! You are a white male and didnít have the world given to you on a silver platter!

pilotpayne
08-05-2018, 06:20 PM
No doubt he worked hard. But the obstacles he faced were significant, and more than the average white dude had to face. That's all I'm saying.

Take a look at this screenshot from a study comparing the relative stats of various groups. Whites aren't the highest, (Asian-Americans are), but other groups have larger obstacles.

All I'm saying is that we should recognize that biases exist. It's amazing to be that this is even a discussion.



http://www.aecf.org/m/resourcedoc/aecf-2017raceforresults-2017.pdf

I can't fix the images, but if you go to page 28 in the link above, you'll see what I mean.

So how did Asian-Americans pull that off?

pilotpayne
08-05-2018, 06:29 PM
What?! You are a white male and didnít have the world given to you on a silver platter!

Nope both sets of grand parents died with very little money. My parents are still working well into their 60s. My dad is a mason which was great some years and others not so much. They did give me a stable home but they sure didnít pay for my school. The exact words were if you want it you pay for it. 3 jobs during the summer, and the first to get into Aviation. I did get one very lucky break by getting on here thanks to running into the right pilot but other than that I guess everything else was given to me.

No doubt different groups face obstacles but like others have said poor white kids in West VA have some major obstacles as well.

Iím all for equal opportunity but to think you will get equal results is insane.

Maybe living in my area and seeing many many successful ďminorityĒ families has me confused.

PasserOGas
08-06-2018, 04:16 AM
If you want to help poor minorities and women you need to "dirty your hands" and help poor white males equally or this country will end up in a very ugly place.

If you address poverty it will naturally impact those racial groups we all should care about without inciting justified anger in the poor white sections of society. (Trumps core group.)

Also it won't be racist and sexist so there is the benefit of practicing what you preach.

pilotpayne
08-06-2018, 07:51 AM
If you want to help poor minorities and women you need to "dirty your hands" and help poor white males equally or this country will end up in a very ugly place.

If you address poverty it will naturally impact those racial groups we all should care about without inciting justified anger in the poor white sections of society. (Trumps core group.)

Also it won't be racist and sexist so there is the benefit of practicing what you preach.

Totally agree

So ends my political posts on this stuff because we will all just argue all day :)

symbian simian
08-06-2018, 09:58 AM
If you want to help poor minorities and women you need to "dirty your hands" and help poor white males equally or this country will end up in a very ugly place.

If you address poverty it will naturally impact those racial groups we all should care about without inciting justified anger in the poor white sections of society. (Trumps core group.)

Also it won't be racist and sexist so there is the benefit of practicing what you preach.

Agreed.......

Cirrusly
08-06-2018, 06:09 PM
Agree to disagree.

johnny150
08-17-2018, 11:28 PM
When will the next app window open and is there a place to go and see when the app window will open?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

queue
08-19-2018, 06:19 AM
I'm saying that the performance and behaviors of the individuals involved is shaped and formed largely from the socioeconomic situation that they find themselves in. I'm saying that it is difficult for an entire class of people to overcome centuries of discrimination and outright obstruction.

They find themselves in? As you know, many people put themselves in a certain socioeconomic condition. Sometimes it's spread intergenerationally as cultural values - I can safely include the majority of America in this characterization. Never forget that the only true freedom that you have is thought. Someone can put a gun to your head but that was still not change what you think, it may only change how you act. Therefore, people are always responsible to a large degree for their situation. There is unlimited number of options that person could've taken but didn't for a number of reasons. Life is not fair but that doesn't stop someone from changing the conditions of the test. This self victimization way of thinking is a Leftist mechanism by which they create a problem which only the left political brand can solve through social justice, which is the trap for more government and perpetual indentured servitude to the left. That is one of the reasons the left hates Trump so much. Trumps economic policies are freeing these people from government dependence by giving them an economic opportunity of autonomy, rather than remaining subjects of the Democrats.

todd1200
08-19-2018, 12:12 PM
They find themselves in? As you know, many people put themselves in a certain socioeconomic condition. Sometimes it's spread intergenerationally as cultural values - I can safely include the majority of America in this characterization. Never forget that the only true freedom that you have is thought. Someone can put a gun to your head but that was still not change what you think, it may only change how you act. Therefore, people are always responsible to a large degree for their situation. There is unlimited number of options that person could've taken but didn't for a number of reasons. Life is not fair but that doesn't stop someone from changing the conditions of the test. This self victimization way of thinking is a Leftist mechanism by which they create a problem which only the left political brand can solve through social justice, which is the trap for more government and perpetual indentured servitude to the left. That is one of the reasons the left hates Trump so much. Trumps economic policies are freeing these people from government dependence by giving them an economic opportunity of autonomy, rather than remaining subjects of the Democrats.

No kidding! I know when I chose my family, I picked a stable, hardworking family that I knew would instill good ole fashion American values. If youíre born into a poor, disadvantaged family, just stop the self-victimization already. Maybe you shouldíve been born in a more affluent area, duh! I donít wanna hear about crime and income statistics either; 98% of statistics are made up on the spot. Snowflake millenials have been destroying the middle class for generations now. This country has always treated all races exactly the same. Donít trust the liberal fake news media.

seekingblue
08-19-2018, 03:53 PM
No kidding! I know when I chose my family, I picked a stable, hardworking family that I knew would instill good ole fashion American values. If youíre born into a poor, disadvantaged family, just stop the self-victimization already. Maybe you shouldíve been born in a more affluent area, duh! I donít wanna hear about crime and income statistics either; 98% of statistics are made up on the spot. Snowflake millenials have been destroying the middle class for generations now. This country has always treated all races exactly the same. Donít trust the liberal fake news media.

Ummm. Can we discuss hiring?

todd1200
08-19-2018, 11:24 PM
Ummm. Can we discuss hiring?

Sure, sorry, I was being sarcastic.

Does anyone know if we still do Vets in Blue seminars and if so, when the next one is?

Bluedriver
08-20-2018, 05:22 AM
No kidding! I know when I chose my family, I picked a stable, hardworking family that I knew would instill good ole fashion American values. If youíre born into a poor, disadvantaged family, just stop the self-victimization already. Maybe you shouldíve been born in a more affluent area, duh! I donít wanna hear about crime and income statistics either; 98% of statistics are made up on the spot. Snowflake millenials have been destroying the middle class for generations now. This country has always treated all races exactly the same. Donít trust the liberal fake news media.

Great post.

It's true that we all have a *chance* to be very successful financially and win the 100 mile race of life, but some won't acknowledge that the odds are much better for those that start life at mile 99, or even mile 50.