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View Full Version : Here Comes Swayne


HandyUghes
08-01-2018, 12:36 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU9NB7cT0F4


havick206
08-01-2018, 01:09 PM
Please make it stop.

Bigpimppilot
08-01-2018, 01:21 PM
What is it with these YouTube clowns?


FullThrust
08-01-2018, 01:30 PM
I would like to see his next series of footage from the depressing crew room sitting standby.

bigtime209
08-01-2018, 01:42 PM
Meh...he's less douchey than Chavez.

styx
08-01-2018, 01:55 PM
He needs to brush up on the social media policy of his new employer.

Captain Kirk
08-01-2018, 02:02 PM
Yeah a podcast from the JFK crew closet sitting standby while he gets reprimanded for turning on the light would be excellent.

Aviator147
08-01-2018, 02:03 PM
He needs to brush up on the social media policy of his new employer.

oh just wait, he'll be posting Envoy sanctioned vlogs as recruiting tools

EmbaeDriver
08-01-2018, 02:47 PM
Wanna see how all the emails about no pics no videos are gonna apply to him

EmbaeDriver
08-01-2018, 02:48 PM
Also, maybe because he was treated special he will be able to hold 175 DFW the first day ::)

bamike
08-01-2018, 03:04 PM
You guys are missing the point. This guy is a digital marketer who also happens to be a pilot. Envoy probably signed an agreement with him to do a bunch of online marketing and vlogs for them to his whole subscriber base. These YouTube celebrities make good money doing things like this for companies.

Swayneís target audience isnít established pilots, itís all the wannabes and the private pilots out there who get excited watching these cheesy videos. 90% of his YouTube subscribers probably have less than 5 hours total time.

V12Merlin
08-01-2018, 03:08 PM
I mean really.....

VIRotate
08-01-2018, 03:14 PM
Meh...he's less douchey than Chavez.

Well that guy voluntarily wears the hate AND long sleeves. Flying him must be one long a** trip...

I can already feel the micromanaging now when he upgrades. RIP to FOs who have to fly with him.

EmbaeDriver
08-01-2018, 05:44 PM
You guys are missing the point. This guy is a digital marketer who also happens to be a pilot. Envoy probably signed an agreement with him to do a bunch of online marketing and vlogs for them to his whole subscriber base. These YouTube celebrities make good money doing things like this for companies.

Swayneís target audience isnít established pilots, itís all the wannabes and the private pilots out there who get excited watching these cheesy videos. 90% of his YouTube subscribers probably have less than 5 hours total time.

We donít care about the company purposes. The guy for sure got a class before lots of people that have been waiting a lot. Company crying about others taking pics and videos and will approve just this guy. Yeah right, no princesses in here.

E175 Driver
08-01-2018, 06:00 PM
What a tool.

bigtime209
08-01-2018, 06:42 PM
We donít care about the company purposes. The guy for sure got a class before lots of people that have been waiting a lot. Company crying about others taking pics and videos and will approve just this guy. Yeah right, no princesses in here.

Is it possible he's a DEC? Serious question....I'm not very up to speed on what exactly counts towards the upgrade and if any of his time at his last gig qualifies him for a DEC slot.

EmbaeDriver
08-01-2018, 06:51 PM
Is it possible he's a DEC? Serious question....I'm not very up to speed on what exactly counts towards the upgrade and if any of his time at his last gig qualifies him for a DEC slot.

He was flying C208 for a Part 135 company in Hawaii. I donít think that time counts to be a DEC.

NoValueAviator
08-01-2018, 06:53 PM
Odds this guy gets the much less photogenic Embraer in class predicted to be less than zero, analysts say.

EmbaeDriver
08-01-2018, 07:22 PM
Odds this guy gets the much less photogenic Embraer in class predicted to be less than zero, analysts say.

Probably 145, it will be a ďset-upĒ if he gets the 175. Will be clear that the company wants him for Videos and promo.

Ijustlikeflying
08-02-2018, 04:30 AM
Everyone in this thread needs to grow up. Bunch of damn 30year olds picking on a 22year old trying to get his feet wet in a new career. Get off his back. Heís built an empire on YouTube with a subscriber base that does not target you, ďthe established airline pilot.Ē Donít watch his videos if it upsets you soooo much. And put a skirt on it if you are butt hurt that he got a class before others. I got news for you, lifeís not fair. If you havenít figured that out by 30 then maybe thatís why you are still at Envoy waiting for the flow, while the other majors have been in a hiring frenzy the past few years ...youíre too busy complaining about every little thing in your life and not taking action to change it.

Heís a hustler. Probably making more money than you. Youtubers like him donít get all those subscribers and views and not get paid for it. Be Better.

bh5311
08-02-2018, 04:38 AM
everyone in this thread needs to grow up. Bunch of damn 30year olds picking on a 22year old trying to get his feet wet in a new career. Get off his back. Heís built an empire on youtube with a subscriber base that does not target you, ďthe established airline pilot.Ē donít watch his videos if it upsets you soooo much. And put a skirt on it if you are butt hurt that he got a class before others. I got news for you, lifeís not fair. If you havenít figured that out by 30 then maybe thatís why you are still at envoy waiting for the flow, while the other majors have been in a hiring frenzy the past few years ...youíre too busy complaining about every little thing in your life and not taking action to change it.

Heís a hustler. Probably making more money than you. Youtubers like him donít get all those subscribers and views and not get paid for it. Be better.

leave britney alone!

Captain Kirk
08-02-2018, 05:06 AM
What if youíre over 50 and havenít figured it out yet😁

EmbaeDriver
08-02-2018, 06:28 AM
Iím 62, I retire in 3 years. What about me?

henryjj
08-02-2018, 06:57 AM
We donít care about the company purposes. The guy for sure got a class before lots of people that have been waiting a lot. Company crying about others taking pics and videos and will approve just this guy. Yeah right, no princesses in here.

I know this guy from UND... he passed his interview in February so Iím not sure what you mean by him ďnot waitingĒ for a class date ?

moon
08-02-2018, 07:04 AM
I know this guy from UND... he passed his interview in February so Iím not sure what you mean by him ďnot waitingĒ for a class date ?

Even if they did move up his class date it shouldn't matter. If the company wants to hire someone and have him create videos that may help recruiting that is a company decision. Not saying that's what happened just saying this thread complaining about someone who may or may not have had a class date moved up is dumb. He seems professional so who cares.

Bussschhh
08-02-2018, 07:13 AM
Whatís up with yíall needing to instagram and YouTube everything? Heard this cat was on the blacklist for several other carriers. Major tool

bigtime209
08-02-2018, 11:39 AM
I know this guy from UND... he passed his interview in February so Iím not sure what you mean by him ďnot waitingĒ for a class date ?

This is what's confusing me. Why is the thought process that he must have jumped the line and therefore the company bumped him up in order to secure free advertising? What am I missing here?

ENH017
08-02-2018, 12:37 PM
This is what's confusing me. Why is the thought process that he must have jumped the line and therefore the company bumped him up in order to secure free advertising? What am I missing here?

People are assuming that he took the job offer, reported to YouTube about it, and is going into ground school all in a very short time span. As opposed to interviewing in the winter, keeping hush about it, and announcing his start at Envoy right before he starts training.

henryjj
08-02-2018, 04:02 PM
People are assuming that he took the job offer, reported to YouTube about it, and is going into ground school all in a very short time span. As opposed to interviewing in the winter, keeping hush about it, and announcing his start at Envoy right before he starts training.

I donít get it either. Clearly this was a long term plan. From what I heard he interviewed in February and that video was probably filmed over a month ago.

Bigpimppilot
08-02-2018, 04:29 PM
He gave up that much seniority to go to Envoy? Damn

Whiskey4
08-02-2018, 04:57 PM
Probably 145, it will be a ďset-upĒ if he gets the 175. Will be clear that the company wants him for Videos and promo.


Why a set up? Every FO in the last two classes got DFL or OFL other than one guy who actually wanted NFE and chose it.


Getting 175 has been pretty much a lock for the last month or so. The people worried now are the ones who want LGA or MIA.

WesternSkies
08-02-2018, 05:49 PM
United Duece for the cameo

havick206
08-02-2018, 06:18 PM
United Duece for the cameo

Iím waiting for the naked Delta pilot that got locked out of his hotel room wearing is flip flops, being an extra in the next installment.

NoValueAviator
08-03-2018, 05:37 AM
Why a set up? Every FO in the last two classes got DFL or OFL other than one guy who actually wanted NFE and chose it.


Getting 175 has been pretty much a lock for the last month or so. The people worried now are the ones who want LGA or MIA.

I'm happy for the smug dudes showing up for these all 175 classes but if they freeze hiring on the 145 for more than a couple months I'm going to be upset. Stuck on a comically overstaffed fleet in the middle of a 30-80 pilot reserve list in a ****ty base for eternity, getting no hours, no thanks. FO seat lock must go.

BigZ
08-03-2018, 06:12 AM
FO seat lock must go.
See that bunch of dudes over there? That's CRJ FOs, get right behind them in the line

NoValueAviator
08-03-2018, 06:18 AM
See that bunch of dudes over there? That's CRJ FOs, get right behind them in the line

Gladly. CRJ went super senior in my class and everyone was very happy to have dodged the NYC bullet though.

BigZ
08-03-2018, 06:33 AM
Gladly. CRJ went super senior in my class and everyone was very happy to have dodged the NYC bullet though.

It's not a bad seat living in base, if you're ok with not flying a lot (i.e longer upgrade time), commuting its a murder.

BIueSideUp
08-03-2018, 06:02 PM
If you open his video description, it says "Filmed in partnership with Envoy Air". Pretty clear this is a deal with company and he'll be allowed to film in all the places that us commoners can't. Thats also what his whole "I'm announcing a new series" thing was about with a bullet pointed checklist. You're just looking at the newest member of the recruiting team is all...

EmbaeDriver
08-04-2018, 02:03 PM
If you open his video description, it says "Filmed in partnership with Envoy Air". Pretty clear this is a deal with company and he'll be allowed to film in all the places that us commoners can't. Thats also what his whole "I'm announcing a new series" thing was about with a bullet pointed checklist. You're just looking at the newest member of the recruiting team is all...

Clearly a set up

MD-11Loader
08-05-2018, 06:48 AM
Clearly a set up

They could start him on Sunday in his own special class thus circumventing the Monday class and ensuring he gets the 175.

EmbaeDriver
08-05-2018, 08:38 AM
They could start him on Sunday in his own special class thus circumventing the Monday class and ensuring he gets the 175.

Most likely heís type rated already haha

HandyUghes
08-05-2018, 11:02 AM
Itís all just such a one sided lie, like the Ryanair IG *****s. Swayne deserves the glares I hope he gets on the line.

henryjj
08-05-2018, 12:43 PM
Clearly a set up

Of course it's a set-up! In order to do any of this, he'd have to work with the company to get access or approval. Based on what I saw in his first video, he filmed on the ramp so he's clearly worked on getting everything signed off on, which isn't easy these days I might add! So what exactly is wrong with that? At least he's smart enough to do it the right way and not stumble into a new airline creating chaos.

If you don't like what he publishes, don't watch it. It's not meant for you anyways. I just don't understand what's up with all the complaining about this. It's so insignificant... It's amazing to me that any of you are spending time worrying about this.

450knotOffice
08-05-2018, 02:23 PM
No kidding! I watched his video and actually enjoyed it a bit, even if it is a bit cheesy with the music (but I think that's what sells these days). It was edited well, he was well spoken, and he seems genuine.

My guess is this guy spends only a few years at the Regional level before moving on to a Legacy. He seems to be a self starter who won't just sit around and wait for what he wants to just drop into his lap.

henryjj
08-05-2018, 02:41 PM
Maybe Iím out of place for saying this since Iím around his age and just a CFI... but Swayne doesnít seem like the typical vlogging millennial douche people try to make him out to be.

I watched his Mokulele videos recently and everything heís done has been methodical, planned, and approved by his previous airline and the FAA. Iíve seen other idiots online that havenít even come close to the level of planning heís clearly done. He even did some hiring opportunity video for Mokulele through his channel and got over 100 qualified apps ... heís clearly framed himself to be desirable to airline recruiting departments and I think thatís exactly what heís doing.

I donít have anyone in my family who flies, and itís kinda cool to see his career progression before I make it there myself... Again, Iím a millennial, so donít take my word for it if the label ďmillennialĒ means my opinion is automatically worthless ;)

ParkingatMIA
08-05-2018, 02:56 PM
If you don't like what he publishes, don't watch it. It's not meant for you anyways. I just don't understand what's up with all the complaining about this. It's so insignificant... It's amazing to me that any of you are spending time worrying about this.

How dare you make such a rational statement. Donít you know all these old timers need something to whine and complain about while theyíre in the crew room.

Pedro4President
08-05-2018, 05:14 PM
It is absolutely pathetic that this thread is continues to be so negative. Rule number one on here don't talk about real people unless you post your own name. I just want to throat punch you when I read those comments.

EmbaeDriver
08-05-2018, 05:15 PM
Of course it's a set-up! In order to do any of this, he'd have to work with the company to get access or approval. Based on what I saw in his first video, he filmed on the ramp so he's clearly worked on getting everything signed off on, which isn't easy these days I might add! So what exactly is wrong with that? At least he's smart enough to do it the right way and not stumble into a new airline creating chaos.

If you don't like what he publishes, don't watch it. It's not meant for you anyways. I just don't understand what's up with all the complaining about this. It's so insignificant... It's amazing to me that any of you are spending time worrying about this.

So, you were crying writing this?

HandyUghes
08-05-2018, 05:18 PM
It is absolutely pathetic that this thread is continues to be so negative. Rule number one on here don't talk about real people unless you post your own name. I just want to throat punch you when I read those comments.

He's made himself a public figure. Doesn't apply.

Pedro4President
08-05-2018, 05:19 PM
He's made himself a public figure. Doesn't apply.

*THROAT PUNCH* Yes it does!

EmbaeDriver
08-05-2018, 05:30 PM
It is absolutely pathetic that this thread is continues to be so negative. Rule number one on here don't talk about real people unless you post your own name. I just want to throat punch you when I read those comments.

He made himself a public figure so punch yourself.

HandyUghes
08-05-2018, 05:35 PM
*THROAT PUNCH* Yes it does!

Watch this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97l0RbQZFg&t=364s

It's soooo insufferable. Are you kidding me? He's a liar. Flying isn't like that. Yeah, maybe he'll be my boss someday, but he'll make the kind of boss that everyone hates.

I just don't like when pilots exaggerate the job. We drive a machine around. A lot of idiots do this job and it's fuarking easy, but so many people like Swayne puff up their chests and paint a totally ridiculous picture of professional flying.

Bigpimppilot
08-05-2018, 05:35 PM
im Honestly not sure how it could be argued that he isnít a public figure. Heís puttin. His face out there for compensation on YouTube.

Bigpimppilot
08-05-2018, 05:39 PM
Watch this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97l0RbQZFg&t=364s

It's soooo insufferable. Are you kidding me? He's a liar. Flying isn't like that. Yeah, maybe he'll be my boss someday, but he'll make the kind of boss that everyone hates.
Donít forget to Like/share/ and subscribe

Pedro4President
08-05-2018, 05:41 PM
He made himself a public figure so punch yourself.

A guy makes a you tube video and that makes it ok to talk trash about him? I guess I missed that rule.

Old man you need some help.

Pedro4President
08-05-2018, 05:57 PM
Watch this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97l0RbQZFg&t=364s

It's soooo insufferable. Are you kidding me? He's a liar. Flying isn't like that. Yeah, maybe he'll be my boss someday, but he'll make the kind of boss that everyone hates.

I just don't like when pilots exaggerate the job. We drive a machine around. A lot of idiots do this job and it's fuarking easy, but so many people like Swayne puff up their chests and paint a totally ridiculous picture of professional flying.

Did you post the correct video? He made a video about a normal day for his airline. Where was the lie? Have you ever flown for that airline? Have you ever flown a small passenger plane like that for 8 legs?

Did I like his video? NO. I wouldn't waste my time on his videos. I also, wouldn't waste my time on insulting him either.

Bigpimppilot
08-05-2018, 06:10 PM
Pedro are you his dad?

Paid2fly
08-05-2018, 06:44 PM
Pedro are you his dad?









Identical twin brother perhaps?:confused:




:eek:

EmbaeDriver
08-05-2018, 07:29 PM
A guy makes a you tube video and that makes it ok to talk trash about him? I guess I missed that rule.

Old man you need some help.

Itís a free country we can say whatever we want.

450knotOffice
08-05-2018, 09:18 PM
He's made himself a public figure. Doesn't apply.

Iíll second Pedroís Throat Punch.

Get a life and stop worrying about others.

450knotOffice
08-05-2018, 09:27 PM
Watch this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U97l0RbQZFg&t=364s

It's soooo insufferable. Are you kidding me? He's a liar. Flying isn't like that. Yeah, maybe he'll be my boss someday, but he'll make the kind of boss that everyone hates.

I just don't like when pilots exaggerate the job. We drive a machine around. A lot of idiots do this job and it's fuarking easy, but so many people like Swayne puff up their chests and paint a totally ridiculous picture of professional flying.

Wtf? Did we actually watch the same video? Nothing he said was wrong or exaggerated. He didnít puff his chest at all. Youíre just being a douchebag.
Tell you what: you fly 8 legs a day every day with no FA with 5-20 minute turns and tell us all how you wonít be fatigued by the end of the day. He actually said he still enjoyed it, even after that. My guess is youíd whine like a little kid after one day.

450knotOffice
08-05-2018, 09:28 PM
Itís a free country we can say whatever we want.

True dat. And you can also be called out for the moronic statements you make because, well, as you said, itís a free country.

Pedro4President
08-06-2018, 02:01 AM
Itís a free country we can say whatever we want.

But that doesn't mean you should. I'm just calling you out for being a pansy for saying it behind a hidden name.

Ijustlikeflying
08-06-2018, 02:44 AM
But that doesn't mean you should. I'm just calling you out for being a pansy for saying it behind a hidden name.

None of these online trolls would ever say sh** in person anyways because they know how ridiculous they are being.

Welcome to Envoy Swayne. Being a youtuber im sure itís not your first rodeo with trolls and haters.

Dmaxvelo18
08-06-2018, 04:55 AM
Wow, who knew a little 22 yr old could make so many grown men b*tch and moan. He just went to ATP-CTP last week. Ran into him at ORD last week, I doubt many if any of y'all have even had a conversation with this kid. He was respectable and upfront when I talked with him.

Also, for those saying he will get 175 DFW, he lives in ORD and that's where he wants to be based. When I talked to him last week he said he wouldn't even be opposed to riding out the CRJ and getting displaced to come down on top of those b*tching 175 FO drivers!
(I added the b*itching part..)

henryjj
08-06-2018, 05:31 AM
Wow, who knew a little 22 yr old could make so many grown men b*tch and moan. He just went to ATP-CTP last week. Ran into him at ORD last week, I doubt many if any of y'all have even had a conversation with this kid. He was respectable and upfront when I talked with him.

Also, for those saying he will get 175 DFW, he lives in ORD and that's where he wants to be based. When I talked to him last week he said he wouldn't even be opposed to riding out the CRJ and getting displaced to come down on top of those b*tching 175 FO drivers!
(I added the b*itching part..)

After running into him at UND I can't agree more. I doubt a single one of these anonymous pilots on here would say a word to him in person. And if they did... maybe he'd surprise them. I don't know him well, but after seeing him around at UND I know he's a decent dude.

The ONLY reason I replied to this thread is because I found it so messed up that you have a brand new FO heading into an airline, granted, a well known one, and you have an ENTIRE thread smacking this guy down on your forum. Are you kidding me? Get a life. This shouldn't even be allowed on here.

highfarfast
08-06-2018, 06:11 AM
This shouldn't even be allowed on here.

Yep

filler

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 07:10 AM
It is absolutely pathetic that this thread is continues to be so negative. Rule number one on here don't talk about real people unless you post your own name. I just want to throat punch you when I read those comments.I'll second this. At least this kid is professional and knows what he is doing. This isn't nearly as bad as southwestpleasehireme or the PSA Leprechaun. I'm surprised at the early negativity towards one of your own. It's not like he's management. Yet.

The videos posted here actually seem to be honest, straightforward, and quite refreshing. Maybe it's the Hawaii views. I imagine his video style will change a bit to reflect the airline environment and perhaps a changing and more hateful audience... So, maybe hold back on the bashing until he at least posts an actual video about flying the line at Envoy.

griff312
08-06-2018, 08:26 AM
Something about a "take care of the log on your own eye before you complain about the splinter in your neighbor's eye". Some of you are wasting so much time getting all worked up about this kid posting youtube videos, when it's frankly none of your business. Surely you have something better to do with your time, yes??? Maybe let it go, and go study. Practice your manual weight and balance, learn how to figure out Bingo fuel and how to figure out MTOW based on runway, climb limit, and MLW w/ enroute fuel burn.

NoValueAviator
08-06-2018, 09:13 AM
There is a whiff of narcissism that comes out of authoring hours and hours of material about your day-to-day. As a millennial with plenty of experience with vlog type content creators, this is hardly ever completely unwarranted. However, I think most of the butthurt stems from the perception that Envoy will give him preferential treatment, like letting him record Envoy's operations while admonishing others for doing the same, or making sure he gets the good fleet in class; although, as others have pointed out, the last few classes have been Anointed Ones anyway.

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 12:12 PM
There is a whiff of narcissism that comes out of authoring hours and hours of material about your day-to-day. As a millennial with plenty of experience with vlog type content creators, this is hardly ever completely unwarranted. However, I think most of the butthurt stems from the perception that Envoy will give him preferential treatment, like letting him record Envoy's operations while admonishing others for doing the same, or making sure he gets the good fleet in class; although, as others have pointed out, the last few classes have been Anointed Ones anyway.There is also a whiff of narcissism that comes out of deciding how others should live their lives and share their experiences.

But maybe you're right. How dare he share videos with others about the things he finds interesting about aviation. How dare he use his skills to make money for himself and establish business relationships with his employer and the FAA. He should be punished and publicly shamed for forcing you to watch these youtube videos and shoving them down your throat. Let's all gang up on some newcomer kid because of unconfirmed guesses and rumors from anonymous idiots online, that say he might possibly maybe receive preferential treatment from your company because he knows how to use a camera.

Do you see now just how stupid this all sounds? If you're really that worried about preferential treatment and youtube videos hurting your feelings, have a discussion with your management or your union reps. And don't be too insulted when they laugh in your face.

NoValueAviator
08-06-2018, 12:27 PM
I didn't even hint at any of the weird things you're attributing to me in your post, because I don't believe any of them whatsoever.

I'm just saying I can see why people dislike the guy to some extent. Try to calm down.

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 12:29 PM
I didn't even hint at any of the weird things you're attributing to me in your post, because I don't believe any of them whatsoever.

I'm just saying I can see why people dislike the guy to some extent. Try to calm down.I only commented on the specific things you mentioned. Stop making excuses for others' bad behavior. It makes you a part of the problem.

NoValueAviator
08-06-2018, 01:06 PM
I only commented on the specific things you mentioned. Stop making excuses for others' bad behavior. It makes you a part of the problem.

Show me where I said anybody should shame or antagonize Swayne in any way.

Bigpimppilot
08-06-2018, 01:08 PM
I think what the salty guys have problems with are the double standards. If your not in tight with the recruiting department and you video yourself at work saying stuff they donít agree with then itís Very likely youíll be punished to the full extent possible. If your this guy you can be giving massive positive publicity to the company for an unknown amount of compensation. Is alpa going to get their cut?

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 01:20 PM
Show me where I said anybody should shame or antagonize Swayne in any way.I didn't even hint at any of the weird things you're attributing to me...EXACTLY. Now you see how this guy might feel after reading this thread :)

I'm just saying I can see why people dislike the guy to some extent.Like I said, stop making excuses for bad behavior. You and no one else here has any concrete details of, well... anything. But you sure are quick to judge your own.

Bigpimppilot
08-06-2018, 01:30 PM
Hey saucy. Based on your prior post record youíve never posted here before today. Get over yourself.

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 01:34 PM
Hey saucy. Based on your prior post record you’ve never posted here before today. Get over yourself.And? The starter of this thread has only 32 posts ever. So maybe the whole thread should be deleted.

Nice ad hominem, by the way.

Bigpimppilot
08-06-2018, 01:40 PM
Howís commutair? Is it just as saucy as ever?

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 01:42 PM
Howís commutair? Is it just as saucy as ever?How is Envoy? Is it still big and pimp'n?

450knotOffice
08-06-2018, 01:47 PM
I think what the salty guys have problems with are the double standards. If your not in tight with the recruiting department and you video yourself at work saying stuff they donít agree with then itís Very likely youíll be punished to the full extent possible. If your this guy you can be giving massive positive publicity to the company for an unknown amount of compensation. Is alpa going to get their cut?

Maybe he will be compensated. Maybe not. If he will be, then I'm sure that once he's a dues paying member of ALPA, they'll get their cut.

I'm a salty guy myself (I suppose ;)), older than most here, and survived more than two decades at Eagle (it wasn't Envoy when I left). I don't have a problem with this young man at all. He obviously asked for and was granted all the required authorizations, which is pretty much what the legal department says one must do before posting pics and vids on social media. I don't call that a double standard at all.

Bigpimppilot
08-06-2018, 01:58 PM
It depends on who you ask. Your free to disappear now.

Saucy Dingo
08-06-2018, 02:09 PM
I think what the salty guys have problems with are the double standards. If your not in tight with the recruiting department and you video yourself at work saying stuff they donít agree with then itís Very likely youíll be punished to the full extent possible. If your this guy you can be giving massive positive publicity to the company for an unknown amount of compensation. Is alpa going to get their cut?It depends on who you ask. Your free to disappear now.Well as much as your username commands my full respect and attention, I cannot take someone seriously if they do not understand the difference between "your" and "you're". You're free to keep trolling here or troll elsewhere, I won't give you orders on a public anonymous website. :)

Subieguy14
08-13-2018, 07:21 AM
Well, he is on the 145 and based in new york.

CaseTractor
08-13-2018, 07:36 AM
Well, he is on the 145 and based in new york.

What is the breakout of this class? Base, equipment, DECs, RTPs, Cadets, etc

moon
08-13-2018, 07:43 AM
Well, he is on the 145 and based in new york.

What? How is that possible? I thought this was all a giant conspiracy! Q!

Subieguy14
08-13-2018, 08:29 AM
nope.... i dont know about all the stats, his instagram posted that he got the 145 and NYC based.



obviously not too much special treatment here.

E175 Driver
08-13-2018, 10:44 AM
Well, he is on the 145 and based in new york.

Cant wait!

NoValueAviator
08-13-2018, 03:05 PM
Can the JFK standby hole break him? Iím excited to find out, and will be subscribing.

Whiskey4
08-13-2018, 04:54 PM
What? How is that possible? I thought this was all a giant conspiracy! Q!

What happened to his DEC 175 spot??? Haha! So much for all the genius theories on here.

havick206
08-13-2018, 04:58 PM
What happened to his DEC 175 spot??? Haha! So much for all the genius theories on here.

What are you talking about!! APC is the brains trust donít ya know?

Hawker445
08-13-2018, 05:00 PM
There's a very small chance he's making a bunch of money from YouTube. You'd have to have close to 1M subscribers to even get on the bottom end of something 'livable'

FlyyGuyy
08-13-2018, 05:56 PM
There's a very small chance he's making a bunch of money from YouTube. You'd have to have close to 1M subscribers to even get on the bottom end of something 'livable'

i have to disagree. there are plenty of full time youtubers with less than 500k subs making way more than a livable wage. Now the people with 1 million plus are making a LOT of money. My understanding of the whole thing is views, likes and people watching the ads makes you more money. Moreso than subs, however i think the may be a pretty close correlation there.


*disclaimer I know nothing about swayne.

Weekendwarrior2
08-17-2018, 06:07 PM
This is insane, anyone b*** about this needs to get a life. Stop playing professional pilot 24/7 and get some hobbies. Could care less about the guys videos, I get a paycheck twice a month...literally the only thing that matters.

Coool Hand Luke
08-21-2018, 04:33 PM
I do not post on APC much. Donít really care for all the drivel. I feel compelled to interject here, however. With respect to Swayne he is not a kid who had things handed to him. He has no other family members in aviation. He has had to figure it all out on his own with not a lot of help. Thus one of the reasons for making videos.

I will add, if you think he doesnít know what itís like to fly long days in crappy weather youíd be mistaken. Heís earned his spot at Envoy. He is a well spoken young man and plan for his career. We should all be so lucky. For those if you that want to give him the stink eye on the line for no other reason than you donít care for his videos I can assure you that youíll be the ones missing out.

WesternSkies
08-21-2018, 05:08 PM
He is a well spoken young man and plan for his career.

Well with any luck some of that will rub off on you.

Coool Hand Luke
08-21-2018, 05:13 PM
Well with any luck some of that will rub off on you.

Thanks. Iím quite comfortable on all accounts.

snackysmores
08-26-2018, 04:01 PM
With respect to Swayne he is not a kid who had things handed to him.

He must have a lot of debt to attend UND and then go live in Hawaii.

Bigpimppilot
08-26-2018, 05:00 PM
Or his parents used to have money

UncreativeUser
08-26-2018, 05:02 PM
He must have a lot of debt to attend UND and then go live in Hawaii.



Heís familyís got money but nobody in his family are pilots


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coool Hand Luke
09-01-2018, 08:59 AM
He must have a lot of debt to attend UND and then go live in Hawaii.

FYI, That airline out there provides housing.

PRS Guitars
09-01-2018, 01:44 PM
I’m 62, I retire in 3 years. What about me?

Well, you’re 62, going to retire as a regional lifer, despite the best hiring environment in decades (not that there’s anything wrong with that). But...you’re making fun of a 22 year old that will likely be at a Major by age 24...

EmbaeDriver
09-01-2018, 02:43 PM
Well, youíre 62, going to retire as a regional lifer, despite the best hiring environment in decades (not that thereís anything wrong with that). But...youíre making fun of a 22 year old that will likely be at a Major by age 24...

2 year flow yea yea good luck with that

EhV8R
09-01-2018, 03:36 PM
FYI, That airline out there provides housing.Where have you heard that? I had 2 friends who flew out there a few years ago, and that was not the case then.

It was always a deal breaker. Well, that, combined with starting FO's at 18k..

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

badflaps
09-01-2018, 03:52 PM
I can't imagine naming a wiggley, pink bundle of joy.......Swayne.:eek:

SoFloFlyer
09-01-2018, 06:39 PM
Where have you heard that? I had 2 friends who flew out there a few years ago, and that was not the case then.

It was always a deal breaker. Well, that, combined with starting FO's at 18k..

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Heard the FOs would get a place together. Something like 4 to an apartment. Donít quote me though.

NoValueAviator
09-01-2018, 08:46 PM
Well, you’re 62, going to retire as a regional lifer, despite the best hiring environment in decades (not that there’s anything wrong with that). But...you’re making fun of a 22 year old that will likely be at a Major by age 24...

If it goes like that for anyone in the coming years it'll be a real test of character.

When you spend a lot of time around wealthy people you start to realize that being handed that kind of success (earned or not) in one's early twenties has a pretty high probability of creating an entitled psychopath for life.

Then again, most people positioned like that already have parents with cash coming out the ears, so perhaps it's a moot point.

Al Czervik
09-02-2018, 02:48 AM
2 year flow yea yea good luck with that

Seems like a good guy. I donít think heíll have to wait for the flow. Networking matters.

Whiskey4
09-02-2018, 05:09 AM
Seems like a good guy. I donít think heíll have to wait for the flow. Networking matters.

Another advantage he has over most at Envoy is that his app will likely be complete and published on Pilot Credentials. I canít even begin to count the sheer number of flows I know receiving emails from AA to publish their app after having their ďtransfer awardedĒ. That means they didnít even have one on file. I confirmed this with AA Recruitment...they would hire more, but a large amount either havenít completed the Org Fit, or havenít published the app. Seems crazy not to try to beat the flow.

highfarfast
09-02-2018, 06:00 AM
Another advantage he has over most at Envoy is that his app will likely be complete and published on Pilot Credentials. I canít even begin to count the sheer number of flows I know receiving emails from AA to publish their app after having their ďtransfer awardedĒ. That means they didnít even have one on file. I confirmed this with AA Recruitment...they would hire more, but a large amount either havenít completed the Org Fit, or havenít published the app. Seems crazy not to try to beat the flow.

Based on the conversations I've had with the captains I fly with, I believe it. Flow has made this pilot group lazy.

pilotmunk
09-02-2018, 08:22 AM
Another advantage he has over most at Envoy is that his app will likely be complete and published on Pilot Credentials. I canít even begin to count the sheer number of flows I know receiving emails from AA to publish their app after having their ďtransfer awardedĒ. That means they didnít even have one on file. I confirmed this with AA Recruitment...they would hire more, but a large amount either havenít completed the Org Fit, or havenít published the app. Seems crazy not to try to beat the flow.
Saying "they would hire more" implies that they are struggling to see apps from Envoy pilots. Well, where the hell is my invite? I'm competitive from every possible angle and I update my app once a week.

bigtime209
09-02-2018, 08:27 AM
Saying "they would hire more" implies that they are struggling to see apps from Envoy pilots. Well, where the hell is my invite? I'm competitive from every possible angle and I update my app once a week.

THIS^^^^^There are numerous completed apps on file at AA from well qualified Envoy pilots that have the PIC time, the check airman box checked, 4 year degree, etc....Anyone that says the only reason AA isn't hiring more from Envoy is due to lack of qualified apps is full of sh*t.

pilotmunk
09-02-2018, 08:33 AM
THIS^^^^^There are numerous completed apps on file at AA from well qualified Envoy pilots that have the PIC time, the check airman box checked, 4 year degree, etc....Anyone that says the only reason AA isn't hiring more from Envoy is due to lack of qualified apps is full of sh*t.
Thank you.

SoFloFlyer
09-02-2018, 08:44 AM
Would you say that being at AA WO decreases your chances of getting a call from AA? They already have a flow so they take from their WO carriers outside of the flow would leave their operations hurting. Would this be an accurate assumption or am I wayyyyy off?

bigtime209
09-02-2018, 08:52 AM
Would you say that being at AA WO decreases your chances of getting a call from AA? They already have a flow so they take from their WO carriers outside of the flow would leave their operations hurting. Would this be an accurate assumption or am I wayyyyy off?

There is no deliberate action from AA to not hire from the WOs. Having said that, what decreases your chances of getting a call from AA is not being military and not being at a WO. Military and flows are the vast majority of people getting hired. In 2017, 60 pilots were hired at AA outside of military hires and flow. 645 pilots were hired total. That gives you a 9% chance of getting hired off the street outside of military or flow. Very stiff competition for the remaining 9% of slots.

pitchattitude
09-02-2018, 10:53 AM
There is no deliberate action from AA to not hire from the WOs. Having said that, what decreases your chances of getting a call from AA is not being military and not being at a WO. Military and flows are the vast majority of people getting hired. In 2017, 60 pilots were hired at AA outside of military hires and flow. 645 pilots were hired total. That gives you a 9% chance of getting hired off the street outside of military or flow. Very stiff competition for the remaining 9% of slots.
I think you find there is an awful lot of diversity in that 9%.

bigtime209
09-02-2018, 10:55 AM
I think you find there is an awful lot of diversity in that 9%.

You'd be correct.

Paperboi
09-02-2018, 03:07 PM
Just for reference, my class this year had 7 from wholly owned hired outside flow. (From Jan to July only 29 total hired from WO street) All were minority and or military. I believe only one was non military, non minority but was check airman and a great person who deserved it.

I think you find there is an awful lot of diversity in that 9%.

NoValueAviator
09-02-2018, 03:35 PM
I wish there was more discussion of this, but I understand why there isn't because it's kind of distasteful. I think most people would like to imagine that the most qualified people are getting hired without regard for their race or gender.

Is AA only interested in visible minorities, or is there a minority status the average pilot can identify as that they're interested in?

Does it help or hurt to be East Asian? (Possibly "overrepresented" amongst pilots?)

Paperboi
09-02-2018, 03:47 PM
Every airline hires minorities if they are qualified. They are not any more or less qualified than anyone else hired. What shifts the numbers at AA is the numbers that are flowing vs hired off street vs off street from wholly owned. Percentages, I suspect for minorities, are similar to any other legacy.

lavMan
09-02-2018, 04:01 PM
THIS^^^^^There are numerous completed apps on file at AA from well qualified Envoy pilots that have the PIC time, the check airman box checked, 4 year degree, etc....Anyone that says the only reason AA isn't hiring more from Envoy is due to lack of qualified apps is full of sh*t.

Your answer is after Flows, 76% of off the street hires are military. Youíve got a 24% chance of making it happen.

Jefferson
09-02-2018, 04:16 PM
No puppet?

TransWorld
09-02-2018, 04:46 PM
Your answer is after Flows, 76% of off the street hires are military. Youíve got a 24% chance of making it happen.

Over the next few years, hiring numbers at American will increase. This yearís target is 900 (or 930). In just 5 years, mandatory retirement will be 957 for the year, up from 528 this year.

That means one of three things. Flow numbers will increase. OTS Military will increase. OTS Civilian will increase. Or some of all of the above.

I have a furrowed brow as to how many more OTS Military can increase, unless AA is able to steal more from the other majors hiring stream. How many more will be hired from flow each month? Some more, but at some point AA does not want to cave in their WO.

My crystal ball says, while flows will increase some, there will be a significant increase in OTS Civilian (more than the 9% of total hires in 2017). Flow will still be bigger than OTS Civilian, but the 9% was a drop in the bucket last year.

Things are about to get real interesting.

SoFloFlyer
09-02-2018, 08:07 PM
Over the next few years, hiring numbers at American will increase. This yearís target is 900 (or 930). In just 5 years, mandatory retirement will be 957 for the year, up from 528 this year.

That means one of three things. Flow numbers will increase. OTS Military will increase. OTS Civilian will increase. Or some of all of the above.

I have a furrowed brow as to how many more OTS Military can increase, unless AA is able to steal more from the other majors hiring stream. How many more will be hired from flow each month? Some more, but at some point AA does not want to cave in their WO.

My crystal ball says, while flows will increase some, there will be a significant increase in OTS Civilian (more than the 9% of total hires in 2017). Flow will still be bigger than OTS Civilian, but the 9% was a drop in the bucket last year.

Things are about to get real interesting.

Iím looking forward to the difference in airline economics in the next decade than the past 2 or so decades. AA is my dream, but I donít want to limit myself to a WO since Iím not military. I would be working towards as much TPIC, CKA, 4 year degree, and I am a minority, but I donít believe that should matter. Only the most qualified should get a call, but Iím no recruiter so it is what it is.

PRS Guitars
09-03-2018, 03:52 PM
2 year flow yea yea good luck with that

He won't be waiting for the flow. He doesn't strike me as the type to sit back and wait for 6 to 9 years. I meant he'll be picked up by DAL, UAL, SWA, FDX, UPS or AA outside the flow. He probably has a solid network built.

SoFloFlyer
09-03-2018, 08:48 PM
He won't be waiting for the flow. He doesn't strike me as the type to sit back and wait for 6 to 9 years. I meant he'll be picked up by DAL, UAL, SWA, FDX, UPS or AA outside the flow. He probably has a solid network built.

Just to add to this. Yíall better befriend him and stop taking a dump on his success thus far. Besides potentially having a decent network (or does?), he seems like an awesome guy to be around.

pilotmunk
09-04-2018, 05:12 AM
He won't be waiting for the flow. He doesn't strike me as the type to sit back and wait for 6 to 9 years. I meant he'll be picked up by DAL, UAL, SWA, FDX, UPS or AA outside the flow. He probably has a solid network built.
This brings up a question. Let's say a swayne-type person gets a couple of years of 121 time and gets an interview invitation at a major at 25. At the same time, a 40-year old captain who works for the same regional as the other guy and has at least twice the flight time and comparable educational credentials and achievements does not get an invite while applying during the same window. Isn't this a definition of age-based discrimination? Not even talking about the performance comparison during the interview because one of the two pilots hasn't even been given an opportunity to perform. Thoughts?

Paperboi
09-04-2018, 05:46 AM
Happens every day unfortunately.

This brings up a question. Let's say a swayne-type person gets a couple of years of 121 time and gets an interview invitation at a major at 25. At the same time, a 40-year old captain who works for the same regional as the other guy and has at least twice the flight time and comparable educational credentials and achievements does not get an invite while applying during the same window. Isn't this a definition of age-based discrimination? Not even talking about the performance comparison during the interview because one of the two pilots hasn't even been given an opportunity to perform. Thoughts?

PRS Guitars
09-04-2018, 07:26 AM
This brings up a question. Let's say a swayne-type person gets a couple of years of 121 time and gets an interview invitation at a major at 25. At the same time, a 40-year old captain who works for the same regional as the other guy and has at least twice the flight time and comparable educational credentials and achievements does not get an invite while applying during the same window. Isn't this a definition of age-based discrimination? Not even talking about the performance comparison during the interview because one of the two pilots hasn't even been given an opportunity to perform. Thoughts?

The majors are hiring guys in their 60ís right now, so itís going to be tough to prove age discrimination. He seems like the type of guy who will take to the steps to bolster his resume. He probably has some good mentors as well. This is what will get him an invite, not his age or his Vlog. He will put the work in, thatís not a knock on anybody here waiting to flow, just an observation based off watching the one video in the link.

pilotmunk
09-04-2018, 07:58 AM
The majors are hiring guys in their 60ís right now, so itís going to be tough to prove age discrimination. He seems like the type of guy who will take to the steps to bolster his resume. He probably has some good mentors as well. This is what will get him an invite, not his age or his Vlog. He will put the work in, thatís not a knock on anybody here waiting to flow, just an observation based off watching the one video in the link.
Again, not talking about being hired but simply about being called in for an interview, i.e. being given an equal opportunity. One could argue that it doesn't matter how many candidates who are older than our 40-year old captain are invited to interview - as long as there's at least one less experienced younger person invited in place of a more experienced 40-year old, there's a case of ageism.

Ijustlikeflying
09-04-2018, 09:54 AM
This brings up a question. Let's say a swayne-type person gets a couple of years of 121 time and gets an interview invitation at a major at 25. At the same time, a 40-year old captain who works for the same regional as the other guy and has at least twice the flight time and comparable educational credentials and achievements does not get an invite while applying during the same window. Isn't this a definition of age-based discrimination? Not even talking about the performance comparison during the interview because one of the two pilots hasn't even been given an opportunity to perform. Thoughts?

Itís not age discrimination if that 40year old captain didnít actively try to get an interview everyday. The flat out truth is that a lot of the ď40year old CAsĒ that are out there are not activiely trying to get hired. You canít just put in an app, update it once or twice a year and not have outside sources look at it. You need letters of rec., you donít know someone there? Fine, go meet someone there. You work in the same industry for Christ sake. If you think about how hard you worked in initial training on your first 121 job, or how hard you worked for that CFI initial...if youíre not working that hard for a job at DAL, AAL, etc. youíre not going to get hired. Thereís too many apps on file. If your attitude is, I have so much experience, I shouldnít have to work that hard for a job or pay for someone to look at my app. Then sorry, but your just not going to get that call. Even in todayís rapidly changing environment.

This is the truth. And anyone here who is over 40, and says otherwise they are lying to thereself. Unfortunately you have to work a little harder than just filling out an app and paying for a subscription to airline apps. It may take a application/interview prep course and an internal letter of rec or a couple job fairs to get you that job. Also offer some help to alpa, offer to help the safety organization at your airline or work hard and become a check airmen, work with recruiting etc. this is the gods honest truth.

I hope you read this and donít get mad, and just use it as motivation to fix up your app and get out there and get hired. The work you put in now will benifit long down the road. Everyday you wait, youíre leaving money and scenority on the table. Donít wait for the flow. Use the flow like is state farm insurance. Good luck friends.

pilotmunk
09-04-2018, 10:55 AM
Itís not age discrimination if that 40year old captain didnít actively try to get an interview everyday. The flat out truth is that a lot of the ď40year old CAsĒ that are out there are not activiely trying to get hired. You canít just put in an app, update it once or twice a year and not have outside sources look at it. You need letters of rec., you donít know someone there? Fine, go meet someone there. You work in the same industry for Christ sake. If you think about how hard you worked in initial training on your first 121 job, or how hard you worked for that CFI initial...if youíre not working that hard for a job at DAL, AAL, etc. youíre not going to get hired. Thereís too many apps on file. If your attitude is, I have so much experience, I shouldnít have to work that hard for a job or pay for someone to look at my app. Then sorry, but your just not going to get that call. Even in todayís rapidly changing environment.

This is the truth. And anyone here who is over 40, and says otherwise they are lying to thereself. Unfortunately you have to work a little harder than just filling out an app and paying for a subscription to airline apps. It may take a application/interview prep course and an internal letter of rec or a couple job fairs to get you that job. Also offer some help to alpa, offer to help the safety organization at your airline or work hard and become a check airmen, work with recruiting etc. this is the gods honest truth.

I hope you read this and donít get mad, and just use it as motivation to fix up your app and get out there and get hired. The work you put in now will benifit long down the road. Everyday you wait, youíre leaving money and scenority on the table. Donít wait for the flow. Use the flow like is state farm insurance. Good luck friends.
Yeah, that's not what I was asking at all. Nothing to do with my motivation or myself for that matter. Let's say, two individuals equally often update their apps for a period of one year at a major airline so both technically hit unannounced application windows. Equal education. One is younger has x amount of 121 time, no TPIC, and the other is older and has twice as much 121 time, plus 1000 121 TPIC. For this example these are the ONLY objective qualifications. Everything else for the sake of this argument is unknown and we'll treat as subjective factors. A younger applicant receives an interview invitation, the older applicant does not. Is this the case (and this case alone!) of age-based discrimination or not? All I'm asking for are the arguments for or against. And not a lecture on motivation :)

BigZ
09-04-2018, 11:02 AM
Yeah, that's not what I was asking at all. Nothing to do with my motivation or myself for that matter. Let's say, two individuals equally often update their apps for a period of one year at a major airline so both technically hit unannounced application windows. Equal education. One is younger has x amount of 121 time, no TPIC, and the other is older and has twice as much 121 time, plus 1000 121 TPIC. For this example these are the ONLY objective qualifications. Everything else for the sake of this argument is unknown and we'll treat as subjective factors. A younger applicant receives an interview invitation, the older applicant does not. Is this the case (and this case alone!) of age-based discrimination or not? All I'm asking for are the arguments for or against. And not a lecture on motivation :)
It's not.

In any other case
A. The burden of proof that someone else was chosen over you is squarely on you. Good luck with that.
B. At various times and various places different quals are preferred. Someone with a recent history of successful training might be more hireable than 15+ years in the same aircraft type of a pilot. Such is life.

pilotmunk
09-04-2018, 12:29 PM
It's not.

In any other case
A. The burden of proof that someone else was chosen over you is squarely on you. Good luck with that.
B. At various times and various places different quals are preferred. Someone with a recent history of successful training might be more hireable than 15+ years in the same aircraft type of a pilot. Such is life.

You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?

SilentLurker
09-04-2018, 12:35 PM
Your answer is after Flows, 76% of off the street hires are military. Youíve got a 24% chance of making it happen.



Insert Jim Carrey quote from the movie Dumb & Dumber:

ďSo your saying thereís a chance.Ē

PRS Guitars
09-04-2018, 12:43 PM
Pilotmunk,

Itís not ageism (I hate that term, more on that latter). First of all, your hypothetical doesnít work, there are too many variable the employer is looking at for them to be the exact same. Second, do major airline apps even have a place to put your age? Third, bottom line the company is going to hire whoever they think is the best fit and will add the most value to their company. Why would they care about age? If they did, theyíd probably favor older pilots who will be less than the top wage scale. Lastly, youíre basically advocating that pilots be sorted by age and interviewed from oldest to youngest, wouldnít that in and of itself be ďageismĒ? Whoís to say older is better?

Ageism...I was deplaning as a non rev passenger. I had put my bag back about 10 rows and was waiting for pax to clear before retrieving it. A woman in her early twenties also had her bag back a few rows.

She asked the FA what to do. I said ďyou wait for an opening and then make your move, like the game Frogger, oh youíre too young to know that gameĒ

When we made it back to our bags, she murmured under her breath at me that she didnít appreciate my Ageist comment. I kept my composure and didnít say anything, but have to admit I was a bit shocked. I mean it be one thing if I insinuated that she looked older, that might be rude, but WTF?

jonrayburn
09-04-2018, 12:54 PM
Can we expect to see a Vlog of your first day of INDOC Swayne? :D

BigZ
09-04-2018, 01:01 PM
You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
Let's say the sun is triangular and green. For the sake of the argument.
That's the whole point - Can prove age discrimination? Go ahead and sue for age discrimination.
Can't? Don't. "That person got the interview because of age/sex/ethnicity/whatever" "No, that person's background is a better fit for what we are looking for".

B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?
Exercise in futility.
Not ageism. One candidate spent enough time in the field to gain the basic experience, but probably not enough time to become engrained in doing things a certain way, so is probably more trainable and as such more desirable as a potential candidate. Boom.

badflaps
09-04-2018, 01:11 PM
Pilotmunk,

Itís not ageism (I hate that term, more on that latter). First of all, your hypothetical doesnít work, there are too many variable the employer is looking at for them to be the exact same. Second, do major airline apps even have a place to put your age? Third, bottom line the company is going to hire whoever they think is the best fit and will add the most value to their company. Why would they care about age? If they did, theyíd probably favor older pilots who will be less than the top wage scale. Lastly, youíre basically advocating that pilots be sorted by age and interviewed from oldest to youngest, wouldnít that in and of itself be ďageismĒ? Whoís to say older is better?

Ageism...I was deplaning as a non rev passenger. I had put my bag back about 10 rows and was waiting for pax to clear before retrieving it. A woman in her early twenties also had her bag back a few rows.

She asked the FA what to do. I said ďyou wait for an opening and then make your move, like the game Frogger, oh youíre too young to know that gameĒ

When we made it back to our bags, she murmured under her breath at me that she didnít appreciate my Ageist comment. I kept my composure and didnít say anything, but have to admit I was a bit shocked. I mean it be one thing if I insinuated that she looked older, that might be rude, but WTF?
She was late to the airplane, has no sense of humor and probably not much to look at. Her problems are just begining.:D

pilotmunk
09-04-2018, 01:14 PM
Pilotmunk,

Itís not ageism (I hate that term, more on that latter). First of all, your hypothetical doesnít work, there are too many variable the employer is looking at for them to be the exact same. Second, do major airline apps even have a place to put your age? Third, bottom line the company is going to hire whoever they think is the best fit and will add the most value to their company. Why would they care about age? If they did, theyíd probably favor older pilots who will be less than the top wage scale. Lastly, youíre basically advocating that pilots be sorted by age and interviewed from oldest to youngest, wouldnít that in and of itself be ďageismĒ? Whoís to say older is better?

Ageism...I was deplaning as a non rev passenger. I had put my bag back about 10 rows and was waiting for pax to clear before retrieving it. A woman in her early twenties also had her bag back a few rows.

She asked the FA what to do. I said ďyou wait for an opening and then make your move, like the game Frogger, oh youíre too young to know that gameĒ

When we made it back to our bags, she murmured under her breath at me that she didnít appreciate my Ageist comment. I kept my composure and didnít say anything, but have to admit I was a bit shocked. I mean it be one thing if I insinuated that she looked older, that might be rude, but WTF?

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I do not advocate that candidates should be interviewed in the reverse age order. As anyone else here, I am certain, I believe that candidates should be invited to interview based on relevant qualifications first and foremost. Refusing an employment opportunity (which starts with an interview) to someone who is qualified because of the applicant's age is illegal. One can construe that the equal opportunity laws are violated if a younger applicant with lower qualifications than an older applicant is given an opportunity to interview while the older applicant is not (with all other factors being equal). It is irrelevant whether we appreciate this protection or not. It's the law. Ageism in employment is illegal.

Airline applications ask for the date of birth.

Employers absolutely can (and should) interview and hire only those who in their opinion "is the best fit and will add the most value to their company". As long as the equal opportunity laws are not violated.

I can see how my example may seem too simplistic. But that's the whole point. I want it to be as clear-cut as possible because I'm just looking for sound arguments why this may not be an example of age-based discrimination. So far I'm not seeing any. For instance, I am curious if anyone might think that an employment opportunity does not start with an interview but instead is initiated at the point of application submission. I don't know.

I guess if I am really curious I should be asking lawyers but I'm not THAT curious.

pilotmunk
09-04-2018, 01:24 PM
Let's say the sun is triangular and green. For the sake of the argument.
That's the whole point - Can prove age discrimination? Go ahead and sue for age discrimination.
Can't? Don't. "That person got the interview because of age/sex/ethnicity/whatever" "No, that person's background is a better fit for what we are looking for".

Exercise in futility.
Not ageism. One candidate spent enough time in the field to gain the basic experience, but probably not enough time to become engrained in doing things a certain way, so is probably more trainable and as such more desirable as a potential candidate. Boom.

It's not about suing, it's not about proving anything. It's merely a reasoning exercise.

TroutBum
09-04-2018, 02:24 PM
You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?

What you describe here (and in your earlier example) is a prima facie case of age discrimination. But that's all it is. The burden then shifts to the employer to demonstrate a non-discriminatory reason for the decision -- which is the key step to the analysis.

Whiskey4
09-04-2018, 04:50 PM
Thank you for the thoughtful response.

I do not advocate that candidates should be interviewed in the reverse age order. As anyone else here, I am certain, I believe that candidates should be invited to interview based on relevant qualifications first and foremost. Refusing an employment opportunity (which starts with an interview) to someone who is qualified because of the applicant's age is illegal. One can construe that the equal opportunity laws are violated if a younger applicant with lower qualifications than an older applicant is given an opportunity to interview while the older applicant is not (with all other factors being equal). It is irrelevant whether we appreciate this protection or not. It's the law. Ageism in employment is illegal.

Airline applications ask for the date of birth.

Employers absolutely can (and should) interview and hire only those who in their opinion "is the best fit and will add the most value to their company". As long as the equal opportunity laws are not violated.

I can see how my example may seem too simplistic. But that's the whole point. I want it to be as clear-cut as possible because I'm just looking for sound arguments why this may not be an example of age-based discrimination. So far I'm not seeing any. For instance, I am curious if anyone might think that an employment opportunity does not start with an interview but instead is initiated at the point of application submission. I don't know.

I guess if I am really curious I should be asking lawyers but I'm not THAT curious.

Age has nothing to do with the interview invitation process at AA. Even flight experience doesnít play that big a role since everyone getting selected is ďcompetitiveĒ in some way.

Mil guys are competitive due to their background.

Some people are competitive due to their connections...family and close friends on the seniority list (bonus points if they are in management). This is big since youíre a known quantity.

Someone like Swayne brings unique qualities to the table because of his enthusiasm for aviation, and how he creatively tries to help educate his peers about aviation. Yes, recruiting managers notice this type of attitude. He is also likely well networked.

Just saying, ďIím a 40 year old who is well-qualifiedĒ isnít ďcompetitiveĒ. You need an edge to stand out from 10,000 resumes (over half of which probably update regularly). The 20-something year old getting hired probably has an edge (that may have nothing to do with volume of flight experience).

The majors can be picky. They can invite friends and family before unknowns. They can prefer mil experience. They can invite the guy with the YouTube site or the person who volunteers on weekends.

There is no such fantasy world as ďyeah, but assuming all things being equalĒ. Life isnít equal (or fair). Anyone wanting to get hired needs to get noticed. My first questions to people complaining about not being able to jump the flow or get hired off the street are:

Have you ever physically stopped by AA recruitment at the Flight Academy to introduce yourself and ask to speak with a recruiter?

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

Do you ever get a business card from AA guys you jumpseat with and offer to buy them a coffee to talk about Pilot stuff or strategies for getting hired. Iíve met AA guys who mentor other pilots and even students getting their certificates.

Did you attend the AA virtual job fair on Pilot Credentials he other day? I heard that many people who did one-on-one sessions with a recruiter during the fair got invites.

Too many people are just looking for excuses like age discrimination. You HAVE to play the game to get hired outside of flow.

Paperboi
09-04-2018, 05:53 PM
Age has nothing to do with the interview invitation process at AA. Even flight experience doesnít play that big a role since everyone getting selected is ďcompetitiveĒ in some way.

Mil guys are competitive due to their background.

Some people are competitive due to their connections...family and close friends on the seniority list (bonus points if they are in management). This is big since youíre a known quantity.

Someone like Swayne brings unique qualities to the table because of his enthusiasm for aviation, and how he creatively tries to help educate his peers about aviation. Yes, recruiting managers notice this type of attitude. He is also likely well networked.

Just saying, ďIím a 40 year old who is well-qualifiedĒ isnít ďcompetitiveĒ. You need an edge to stand out from 10,000 resumes (over half of which probably update regularly). The 20-something year old getting hired probably has an edge (that may have nothing to do with volume of flight experience).

The majors can be picky. They can invite friends and family before unknowns. They can prefer mil experience. They can invite the guy with the YouTube site or the person who volunteers on weekends.

There is no such fantasy world as ďyeah, but assuming all things being equalĒ. Life isnít equal (or fair). Anyone wanting to get hired needs to get noticed. My first questions to people complaining about not being able to jump the flow or get hired off the street are:

Have you ever physically stopped by AA recruitment at the Flight Academy to introduce yourself and ask to speak with a recruiter?

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

Do you ever get a business card from AA guys you jumpseat with and offer to buy them a coffee to talk about Pilot stuff or strategies for getting hired. Iíve met AA guys who mentor other pilots and even students getting their certificates.

Did you attend the AA virtual job fair on Pilot Credentials he other day? I heard that many people who did one-on-one sessions with a recruiter during the fair got invites.

Too many people are just looking for excuses like age discrimination. You HAVE to play the game to get hired outside of flow.

^^^^^^^ This 100%

highfarfast
09-04-2018, 07:38 PM
Whiskey is on point here... and I wouldn't normally say that.

pilotmunk, if you're not getting what's being told to you here, you simply don't want to get it. You're question has been answered multiple times.

PRS Guitars
09-04-2018, 07:50 PM
Whiskey4,

Well put, thatís what I was trying to say, but couldnít quite find the right words.

SoFloFlyer
09-04-2018, 08:58 PM
Age has nothing to do with the interview invitation process at AA. Even flight experience doesnít play that big a role since everyone getting selected is ďcompetitiveĒ in some way.

Mil guys are competitive due to their background.

Some people are competitive due to their connections...family and close friends on the seniority list (bonus points if they are in management). This is big since youíre a known quantity.

Someone like Swayne brings unique qualities to the table because of his enthusiasm for aviation, and how he creatively tries to help educate his peers about aviation. Yes, recruiting managers notice this type of attitude. He is also likely well networked.

Just saying, ďIím a 40 year old who is well-qualifiedĒ isnít ďcompetitiveĒ. You need an edge to stand out from 10,000 resumes (over half of which probably update regularly). The 20-something year old getting hired probably has an edge (that may have nothing to do with volume of flight experience).

The majors can be picky. They can invite friends and family before unknowns. They can prefer mil experience. They can invite the guy with the YouTube site or the person who volunteers on weekends.

There is no such fantasy world as ďyeah, but assuming all things being equalĒ. Life isnít equal (or fair). Anyone wanting to get hired needs to get noticed. My first questions to people complaining about not being able to jump the flow or get hired off the street are:

Have you ever physically stopped by AA recruitment at the Flight Academy to introduce yourself and ask to speak with a recruiter?

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

Do you ever get a business card from AA guys you jumpseat with and offer to buy them a coffee to talk about Pilot stuff or strategies for getting hired. Iíve met AA guys who mentor other pilots and even students getting their certificates.

Did you attend the AA virtual job fair on Pilot Credentials he other day? I heard that many people who did one-on-one sessions with a recruiter during the fair got invites.

Too many people are just looking for excuses like age discrimination. You HAVE to play the game to get hired outside of flow.

This is the kind of stuff that needs to be posted more often on forums and FB pages. Really good advice here. I now know what to do to get and stay competitive when I get to the 121 world. Thanks for the post!

Whiskey4
09-05-2018, 04:21 AM
This is the kind of stuff that needs to be posted more often on forums and FB pages. Really good advice here. I now know what to do to get and stay competitive when I get to the 121 world. Thanks for the post!

No problem! Another thing to know is that AA (and most majors) appear to have a preference for check airmen. If you look at who has already jumped the flow, Iíd bet that many had a line check airmen letter. It would be a good idea for quality DECS to look into being a check airman in their fleet once they have the requisite experience.

Here is some info about the virtual job fair that I ran across in the AA forum here on APC:

Yesterday 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armypilot
Where is the information being posted about AA's virtual job fairs, or how do we go about throwing our name in the hat to be invited to one?

Thanks!
AP
It was advertised right on the aa.pilotcredentials.com to the left of where you logged in at least a few weeks before the event. I'd imagine they will do another one this year. You register for it with the same email your app is registered with.

jonrayburn
10-14-2018, 08:51 PM
So if this dude can VLOG and post pictures on his IG, does the union have any interest in working to get this privledge for the entire pilot group??? :confused:

Al Czervik
10-15-2018, 02:00 AM
Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.


LOL... thanks, I needed this.

This is a great post with great ideas.

Skip this part though, trust me.

Cyio
10-15-2018, 10:11 AM
Age has nothing to do with the interview invitation process at AA. Even flight experience doesn’t play that big a role since everyone getting selected is “competitive” in some way.

Mil guys are competitive due to their background.

Some people are competitive due to their connections...family and close friends on the seniority list (bonus points if they are in management). This is big since you’re a known quantity.

Someone like Swayne brings unique qualities to the table because of his enthusiasm for aviation, and how he creatively tries to help educate his peers about aviation. Yes, recruiting managers notice this type of attitude. He is also likely well networked.

Just saying, “I’m a 40 year old who is well-qualified” isn’t “competitive”. You need an edge to stand out from 10,000 resumes (over half of which probably update regularly). The 20-something year old getting hired probably has an edge (that may have nothing to do with volume of flight experience).

The majors can be picky. They can invite friends and family before unknowns. They can prefer mil experience. They can invite the guy with the YouTube site or the person who volunteers on weekends.

There is no such fantasy world as “yeah, but assuming all things being equal”. Life isn’t equal (or fair). Anyone wanting to get hired needs to get noticed. My first questions to people complaining about not being able to jump the flow or get hired off the street are:

Have you ever physically stopped by AA recruitment at the Flight Academy to introduce yourself and ask to speak with a recruiter?

Have you ever stopped by the APA headquarters to see if any AA Union pilots would be willing to provide some wise counsel.

Do you ever get a business card from AA guys you jumpseat with and offer to buy them a coffee to talk about Pilot stuff or strategies for getting hired. I’ve met AA guys who mentor other pilots and even students getting their certificates.

Did you attend the AA virtual job fair on Pilot Credentials he other day? I heard that many people who did one-on-one sessions with a recruiter during the fair got invites.

Too many people are just looking for excuses like age discrimination. You HAVE to play the game to get hired outside of flow.

Ive heard that you should put down that you are from a "insert perceived minority group here" on your application as what can they say in this day and age? Everyone is allowed to identify how they see fit. My DNA results showed that I am 1.5% African American, so I guess I qualify as placing that on my app.

jonrayburn
10-15-2018, 10:15 AM
Why canít the whole pilot group have this privilege? https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1iufr5qy0csws

Cujo665
10-15-2018, 10:40 AM
You are saying it's not. Why not? You guys keep bringing emotions in to it. It's not about that.

A. Burden of proof requirement is not an argument pro or against. It's merely a statement that one would need to prove the claim. Sure, absolutely. But at any rate, let's say it has been proven beyond reasonable doubt. For the sake of the argument.
B. Fair point except I deliberately excluded from my hypothetical example any other factors as they are unknown and therefore subjective. But to make it clearer, let's say the sum of all unknown factors/points in each individual's application is equal.

So same question. Let's even go further in order to isolate ourselves from any prejudice of our knowledge of how the airline recruitment process works. Let's consider two applicants in some OTHER industry. Same known facts: one younger but less experienced, the other older but more experienced. Both have been pursuing this opportunity for equal amount of time, updating applications with equal frequency. All unknown factors cancel each other out. The younger applicant got an interview, the older applicant did not. (Hired or not is irrelevant). Ageism or not?

Look, the guys getting hired outside of flow are the ones being proactive about chasing down every opportunity to get the interview. It's that simple. That isn't age discrimination, it rewarding those with the drive to make the effort to succeed.

Ijustlikeflying
10-15-2018, 10:54 AM
Look, the guys getting hired outside of flow are the ones being proactive about chasing down every opportunity to get the interview. It's that simple. That isn't age discrimination, it rewarding those with the drive to make the effort to succeed.

This!! ^^^^ truth

CharlieFoxtrot
10-15-2018, 02:41 PM
Ive heard that you should put down that you are from a "insert perceived minority group here" on your application as what can they say in this day and age? Everyone is allowed to identify how they see fit. My DNA results showed that I am 1.5% African American, so I guess I qualify as placing that on my app.

I mean I feel like it definitely helps. The more diverse you are the more it seems to score you points on your application through whatever weird rating system they seem to use. Swayne is gay, not that Iím bashing or that this is some kind of spoiler alert, he instagrammed about his boyfriend so itís public knowledge and heís out. All Iím getting at is that he is both diverse and well connected and apparently looked upon highly because heís revolutionary in that he took information that is available in books and posted videos on the internet, groundbreaking. Anyway, the sad truth is he will be at a major (probably mainline AA) long before most people that are more qualified and that have paid their dues longer.

mfflyer
10-15-2018, 02:52 PM
Why canít the whole pilot group have this privilege? https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1iufr5qy0csws

Are you guys not allowed to take pictures before the door closes/after door opens? I don't see what he is doing that anyone else can't

ItnStln
10-15-2018, 04:04 PM
Ive heard that you should put down that you are from a "insert perceived minority group here" on your application as what can they say in this day and age? Everyone is allowed to identify how they see fit. My DNA results showed that I am 1.5% African American, so I guess I qualify as placing that on my app.

Thatís what I would do.

hawk21
10-15-2018, 04:17 PM
Are you guys not allowed to take pictures before the door closes/after door opens? I don't see what he is doing that anyone else can't


Swipe through the photos. Posting photos from in flight.

Saucy Dingo
10-15-2018, 05:12 PM
Swipe through the photos. Posting photos from in flight.If you would have bothered to read the caption, you would know that the inflight photo was taken by a passenger.......

mfflyer
10-15-2018, 05:29 PM
Swipe through the photos. Posting photos from in flight.

*que price is right losing music*

But yes I get what you mean in general.

uavking
10-15-2018, 05:45 PM
Why canít the whole pilot group have this privilege? https://www.instagram.com/p/Bo2c5IlAUA0/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1iufr5qy0csws

Pretty sweet non-reg shirt that dude is wearing in his pics too.

BigZ
10-15-2018, 05:47 PM
Pretty sweet non-reg shirt that dude is wearing in his pics too.

M&h shirts have pockets like that

uavking
10-15-2018, 05:58 PM
M&h shirts have pockets like that

Sure donít look like the issue M&H shirts Iíve been wearing, but maybe itís a special issue from A Cut Above for the Instagram crowd.

havick206
10-15-2018, 06:10 PM
Sure donít look like the issue M&H shirts Iíve been wearing, but maybe itís a special issue from A Cut Above for the Instagram crowd.

The M&H shirts are leftover stock from the good year blimp repair kits.

Youíre the self appointed uniform nazi?

jonrayburn
10-15-2018, 06:22 PM
Are you guys not allowed to take pictures before the door closes/after door opens? I don't see what he is doing that anyone else can't

The use of cellphones, PDAs, or other devices to take photos, or make audio or video recordings at work may invade the personal privacy of other employees and may breach the confidentiality of the Companyís trade secrets or other protected information. Therefore, the use of these devices to take photos, or make audio or video recordings anywhere on Company property is prohibited without the express prior permission of a Vice President or above. Company property includes (but is not limited to) break rooms, restrooms, locker rooms, crew rooms, offices, conference rooms and operational areas such as aircraft, hangars, ramp and gate areas.

uavking
10-15-2018, 06:47 PM
The M&H shirts are leftover stock from the good year blimp repair kits.

Youíre the self appointed uniform nazi?

Iím no fan of AAG mgt/APAís choice of M&H. However, perhaps it isnít a good look to wear non-reg items on IOE, in a photo that might as well be part of recruitingís social media operation.

GI wisdom: Itís pretty easy to spot jacked up uniforms, just as itís pretty easy to wear your gear right.

Saucy Dingo
10-15-2018, 06:57 PM
I’m no fan of AAG mgt/APA’s choice of M&H. However, perhaps it isn’t a good look to wear non-reg items on IOE, in a photo that might as well be part of recruiting’s social media operation.

GI wisdom: It’s pretty easy to spot jacked up uniforms, just as it’s pretty easy to wear your gear right.Personally I am more worried about the beer-bellied marshmallows waddling around the airport that don't look right in any kind of shirt.

Do you guys really have nothing better to discuss? It's getting embarrassing.

uavking
10-15-2018, 06:59 PM
Personally I am more worried about the beer-bellied marshmallows walking around the airport that don't look right in any kind of shirt.

Do you guys really have nothing better to discuss? It's getting embarrassing.

Want to break out the tape test and some remedial PT just like the Army, eh?

Saucy Dingo
10-15-2018, 07:12 PM
Want to break out the tape test and some remedial PT just like the Army, eh?I wonder if anyone else understands the irony of this response. Keep on looking out for those dangerous non-reg shirts, I'm sure many Envoy pilots sleep better at night knowing you are on patrol.

ceelo
10-22-2018, 05:35 AM
y'all are a bunch of haters.

ceelo
10-22-2018, 05:38 AM
Everyone in this thread needs to grow up. Bunch of damn 30year olds picking on a 22year old trying to get his feet wet in a new career. Get off his back. Heís built an empire on YouTube with a subscriber base that does not target you, ďthe established airline pilot.Ē Donít watch his videos if it upsets you soooo much. And put a skirt on it if you are butt hurt that he got a class before others. I got news for you, lifeís not fair. If you havenít figured that out by 30 then maybe thatís why you are still at Envoy waiting for the flow, while the other majors have been in a hiring frenzy the past few years ...youíre too busy complaining about every little thing in your life and not taking action to change it.

Heís a hustler. Probably making more money than you. Youtubers like him donít get all those subscribers and views and not get paid for it. Be Better.

so much this.

V12Merlin
10-29-2018, 05:11 AM
Filler filler filler

Cujo665
12-02-2018, 03:46 AM
Heíll do well...



https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/2015/02/10-facts-about-the-cessna-172-skyhawk/

pilotmunk
12-02-2018, 03:10 PM
Heíll do well...



https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/2015/02/10-facts-about-the-cessna-172-skyhawk/
Wow, he's quite prolific, too

NoValueAviator
12-02-2018, 03:47 PM
He does listicles too?

I can't see how this guy isn't a 787 CA in 2 years.

in2deep
12-03-2018, 09:45 AM
He does listicles too?

I can't see how this guy isn't a 787 CA in 2 years.

Heís been a poster child of the Buzzfeed of aviation for years

Dfwnightflyer
12-12-2018, 09:25 AM
https://www.facebook.com/153070714755977/posts/2194950653901296/

Is this his debut?

450knotOffice
12-12-2018, 10:14 AM
Nicely done.

Cyio
12-13-2018, 03:33 AM
lol, is that a Cut Above shirt?

Classic.

griff312
12-13-2018, 05:41 AM
Eh, he did a good job. Had all the proper disclosures, was informative, ect. I wonder if Envoy is supplementing him for the use of his vids on the envoy recruitment page, or if he just got ripped off and theybuse it for free?
Now, every time I see it, I'm going to kill a bus full of baby kitten nuns.

pitchattitude
12-13-2018, 05:47 AM
Eh, he did a good job. Had all the proper disclosures, was informative, ect. I wonder if Envoy is supplementing him for the use of his vids on the envoy recruitment page, or if he just got ripped off and theybuse it for free?
Now, every time I see it, I'm going to kill a bus full of baby kitten nuns.
I doubt they are paying him. Most companies have a statement in the employment contract about anything produced on company time belongs to the company. But I can assure you he is getting intangible compensation.

bigtime209
12-13-2018, 09:28 AM
I doubt they are paying him. Most companies have a statement in the employment contract about anything produced on company time belongs to the company. But I can assure you he is getting intangible compensation.

Company isn't paying him for it. But with the amount of subscribers he has on his channel and the number of views he's getting on his videos, he's making good money from Youtube. There are people with channels smaller than his that are now doing Youtube full time for a living.

dclevenger100
12-14-2018, 12:12 PM
As long as it's done outside of Part 121, what's the issue?If you open his video description, it says "Filmed in partnership with Envoy Air". Pretty clear this is a deal with company and he'll be allowed to film in all the places that us commoners can't. Thats also what his whole "I'm announcing a new series" thing was about with a bullet pointed checklist. You're just looking at the newest member of the recruiting team is all...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

450knotOffice
12-15-2018, 10:55 AM
Yea, I don't get the angst. It's petty.

He's got the kind of enthusiasm and drive that most do not. He seizes opportunity, and he does it properly.

And so what if the company uses it for Recruitment? Like any company, they need to attract new hires.

dera
12-15-2018, 01:05 PM
Yea, I don't get the angst. It's petty.

He's got the kind of enthusiasm and drive that most do not. He seizes opportunity, and he does it properly.

And so what if the company uses it for Recruitment? Like any company, they need to attract new hires.

Just wait and see what kind of b*tching happens when he gets picked up by a major in 2 years.

pitchattitude
12-15-2018, 02:32 PM
Just wait and see what kind of b*tching happens when he gets picked up by a major in 2 years.
Like I said. Intangible compensation.

MD-11Loader
12-16-2018, 05:11 PM
Swayne is now ORD based. It makes sense that they are redoing to crew room in order to celebrate his arrival. Iím sure theyíre will be a lengthy video on the new facilities on G and L in the near future.

Jersdawg
12-16-2018, 05:27 PM
Swayne is now ORD based. It makes sense that they are redoing to crew room in order to celebrate his arrival. Iím sure theyíre will be a lengthy video on the new facilities on G and L in the near future.

What a twist that would be if he did a hit piece on the terrible condition of the crew rooms. Haha.

AOLfreetrial
01-05-2019, 06:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUAepqWX3s

And anotha one...

SoFloFlyer
01-05-2019, 07:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUAepqWX3s

And anotha one...

This will be a thing for a bit. Count on it.

bh539
01-06-2019, 08:53 AM
Is he just going to make "life on reserve" videos for the next year now?

Floobs
01-06-2019, 08:54 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUAepqWX3s

And anotha one...

I actually like his videos. I think some of you haters are just envious of his talent, youth and good looks.

bh539
01-06-2019, 10:06 AM
I actually like his videos. I think some of you haters are just envious of his talent, youth and good looks.

- Swag Martin

Cyio
01-06-2019, 10:28 AM
I didn't watch but if he didn't blast the airline for having some of the worst reserve rules unless you are senior and living in base, he is doing a disservice to his fans.

There is little good to say about it.

dragongoliath
01-06-2019, 11:24 AM
His youtube channel can easily generate about $50-60k per year. Making more than a check airman considering FO pay plus youtube. Smart

FlyGuy2112
01-06-2019, 02:36 PM
I didn't watch but if he didn't blast the airline for having some of the worst reserve rules unless you are senior and living in base, he is doing a disservice to his fans.

There is little good to say about it.

Coming from another airline I can tell you the reserve rules here are wayyyy better than most other regionals. Sure improvements can be made but they are far from the worst

Houpilot2001
01-06-2019, 02:38 PM
I didn't watch but if he didn't blast the airline for having some of the worst reserve rules unless you are senior and living in base, he is doing a disservice to his fans.

There is little good to say about it.

Agree. But he will never blast as all of the videos are "made with envoy". And, good for him making money, but this pie in the sky junk needs to go. But the second he stops towing the company line, his partnership will end and his channel will cease to exist.

Also, either this dude does nothing but repo flights or he's floating the "filmed part 91" bit just to CH(Y)A.

Varsity
01-06-2019, 04:46 PM
I actually like his videos. I think some of you haters are just envious of his talent, youth and good looks.

Or, he is making money off selling management's Kool-aide.

They should just make him management and get it over with.

Cyio
01-06-2019, 05:38 PM
Or, he is making money off selling management's Kool-aide.

They should just make him management and get it over with.

Next ORD CP.

VIRotate
01-06-2019, 05:47 PM
Just curious about who you think does his camera work? Following him down at the gate, during the walk around, etc. Maybe he's giving some of his CAs some of that Youtube money? :D

peaches
01-06-2019, 06:07 PM
His youtube channel can easily generate about $50-60k per year. Making more than a check airman considering FO pay plus youtube. Smart

ehh not so fast my friend. social blade has him at an estimated yearly earning of 1-16k a year. Typically you make anywhere from 800-1000 dollars per 1 million views in ad revenue.

450knotOffice
01-06-2019, 11:39 PM
I’m with Floobs on this. I like this young man’s vids. Well made. Informative. Just the basic facts, with little to no opinion, commentary, or spin presented.

cbrpilot
01-07-2019, 01:31 AM
Met Swayne recently. Group setting, several pilots chatting for a while. I never did, and now really don't understand the general annoyance here. It's been said already, but he's just a bit more of an achiever than most of us. Super nice guy who (in my opinion) legitimately wants to help people become more aware of the daily routine, pluses and minuses, of becoming an airline pilot. Who gives a **** if money is part of his incentive? They're well made videos with company permission. Kudos to him. Swayne, if you're reading, good work and keep it up.

Ijustlikeflying
01-07-2019, 04:57 AM
Met Swayne recently. Group setting, several pilots chatting for a while. I never did, and now really don't understand the general annoyance here. It's been said already, but he's just a bit more of an achiever than most of us. Super nice guy who (in my opinion) legitimately wants to help people become more aware of the daily routine, pluses and minuses, of becoming an airline pilot. Who gives a **** if money is part of his incentive? They're well made videos with company permission. Kudos to him. Swayne, if you're reading, good work and keep it up.

I second this. Heís humble and providing a service to aspiring pilots.

Bruno82
01-07-2019, 05:53 AM
I flew with him recently. Great guy to fly with and really good pilot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SoFloFlyer
01-08-2019, 03:31 AM
His youtube channel can easily generate about $50-60k per year. Making more than a check airman considering FO pay plus youtube. Smart

Just watched a video of a guy who broke down his pay from YouTube and he has about the same numbers as Swayne. The guys is making $150,000 a year. Due to variables, Swayne might be making less, BUT itís more than six figures for sure.

Jamesthunder
01-08-2019, 04:18 AM
Real talk, we need to get Swane to grow a disgusting mustache.

Cyio
01-08-2019, 05:22 AM
Just watched a video of a guy who broke down his pay from YouTube and he has about the same numbers as Swayne. The guys is making $150,000 a year. Due to variables, Swayne might be making less, BUT itís more than six figures for sure.
Lots of the people making tons on there are not making it strictly through views but also supporting ads and sponsors, neither of which Iím sure he is allowed to do given the deal with Envoy. I could be wrong, but who cares really.

SoFloFlyer
01-08-2019, 07:30 AM
Real talk, we need to get Swane to grow a disgusting mustache.

Iím oddly behind this

NoValueAviator
01-08-2019, 07:38 AM
I will like, comment & subscribe if he grows a disgusting mustache.

MD-11Loader
01-08-2019, 12:41 PM
I will like, comment & subscribe if he grows a disgusting mustache.

He just turned 13, I donít think itís an option yet.

Jamesthunder
01-08-2019, 12:51 PM
I will like, comment & subscribe if he grows a disgusting mustache.

He can even make it educational by explaining why pilots aren't allowed to grow beards and why we grow mustaches to spite the company.

BigZ
01-08-2019, 02:37 PM
He can even make it educational by explaining why pilots aren't allowed to grow beards and why we grow mustaches to spite the company.

Is that what that's for? I thought the idea was to prevent the love life from interfering with the duties.

450knotOffice
01-08-2019, 07:15 PM
Hahahaaaa!!
:p

SonicFlyer
01-08-2019, 08:24 PM
explaining why pilots aren't allowed to grow beards Why is that? :confused:

Jamesthunder
01-08-2019, 11:30 PM
Why is that? :confused:

Calling on Swayne Martin! Teach the masses!

peaches
01-09-2019, 01:09 PM
Just watched a video of a guy who broke down his pay from YouTube and he has about the same numbers as Swayne. The guys is making $150,000 a year. Due to variables, Swayne might be making less, BUT itís more than six figures for sure.

Unless he has sponsorships he is making nowhere near that amount. He only has 8 million views... thatís roughly 8000-10000 dollars in ad revenue total And thatís since 2013. People with his amount of viewership might make 150k IF they upload daily. He uploads maybe once a month?

Cyio
01-09-2019, 01:31 PM
Unless he has sponsorships he is making nowhere near that amount. He only has 8 million views... that’s roughly 8000-10000 dollars in ad revenue total And that’s since 2013. People with his amount of viewership might make 150k IF they upload daily. He uploads maybe once a month?

Uploads daily and gets that amount of views daily, a pretty tough task in this industry. I mean you can only skirt the issues for so long before it becomes obvious you are a shill. Either way, hope he does make something and more importantly gets out sooner.

wiz5422
01-09-2019, 02:13 PM
Why is that? :confused:

Not for the reason you think or the false reasons everyone tells you.

Paid2fly
01-09-2019, 06:17 PM
Just out of curiosity, why would anyone go looking for that?





Better question is how does anyone think that's an acceptable thing to do?

highfarfast
01-09-2019, 06:29 PM
Better question, why would anyone think it’s acceptable say that here?

Ka0794
02-03-2019, 06:54 PM
Envoy is paying him nearly $5,000 a month to do these videos wtf - source, his friends from UND

dera
02-03-2019, 06:57 PM
Envoy is paying him nearly $5,000 a month to do these videos wtf

Before you edited your post, you said this was just a rumor.
Got a source for this?

Youtube influencers don't work for free. I'm not a fan, but a lot of people do follow him.

Seven3Seven
02-03-2019, 08:24 PM
Gotta wonder where his allegiance lies. The airline? His website?



Seems like a conflict of interest for his union brothers at the very least.

SoFloFlyer
02-03-2019, 08:48 PM
I have money saying that heíll go to mainline after a year in the left seat or no more than 4 years at the regionals. Love him or hate him, he grabbed onto something no one else did and itís paying off. Canít fault him for doing his due diligence.

MD-11Loader
02-04-2019, 02:17 AM
I have money saying that heíll go to mainline after a year in the left seat or no more than 4 years at the regionals. Love him or hate him, he grabbed onto something no one else did and itís paying off. Canít fault him for doing his due diligence.

In any other industry he would be celebrated for his motivation and how he hustles. Swayne is what 23? Heís got a degree from one of the best aviation schools in the country, has been an instructor (I assume), flown part 135, part 121, is a good pilot from what I have heard, and he networks like a mofo. Isnít that what all of us have tried to do? Make ourselves look good on paper so that we can get a call for that coveted interview?

bh539
02-04-2019, 05:54 AM
In any other industry he would be celebrated for his motivation and how he hustles. Swayne is what 23? He’s got a degree from one of the best aviation schools in the country, has been an instructor (I assume), flown part 135, part 121, is a good pilot from what I have heard, and he networks like a mofo. Isn’t that what all of us have tried to do? Make ourselves look good on paper so that we can get a call for that coveted interview?

Quiet professionalism is better than doing whatever it takes to get to the majors a couple years early, my opinion.

Varsity
02-04-2019, 07:02 AM
In any other industry he would be celebrated for his motivation and how he hustles. Swayne is what 23? He’s got a degree from one of the best aviation schools in the country, has been an instructor (I assume), flown part 135, part 121, is a good pilot from what I have heard, and he networks like a mofo. Isn’t that what all of us have tried to do? Make ourselves look good on paper so that we can get a call for that coveted interview?

North Dakota is far from an exceptional school. Pilots act like its Harvard or Stanford. Most aviation schools are second rate universities, at best.

He road around in the right seat of a caravan and logged it. Something that is so laughable, it shouldn't even be legal flight time.

90% certain he's never worked as a CFI.

I don't dislike him. But he doesn't embody hard-work/"earned it" role model status at all.

mainlineAF
02-04-2019, 07:57 AM
[email protected] h8rs.

He will definitely be at AA or some other major in under 2 years.

Cyio
02-04-2019, 08:48 AM
[email protected] h8rs.

He will definitely be at AA or some other major in under 2 years.

Yeah no. He wonít even be upgraded and trained as a captain in the time, or have just barely gotten there. Unless YouTube skills now trumps turbine pic time he has a ways to go. Imagine what the media would do with that. Young YouTube sensation now flies a320ís for AA solely because he has lots of followers, safety and experience take a back seat.

Have to be real careful as an employer how you go about hiring people because if you set a precedent, others will expect the same treatment, right or wrong.

Iím that topic, minorities and women are about to lose their golden ticket as well with the new law about to be passed stating sex is how you identify not what you are born as. Every white male Should update their app to reflect the changes, once they happen. Itís going to be a crap storm for awhile.

dera
02-04-2019, 09:01 AM
Yeah no. He wonít even be upgraded and trained as a captain in the time, or have just barely gotten there. Unless YouTube skills now trumps turbine pic time he has a ways to go. Imagine what the media would do with that. Young YouTube sensation now flies a320ís for AA solely because he has lots of followers, safety and experience take a back seat.

Have to be real careful as an employer how you go about hiring people because if you set a precedent, others will expect the same treatment, right or wrong.

Iím that topic, minorities and women are about to lose their golden ticket as well with the new law about to be passed stating sex is how you identify not what you are born as. Every white male Should update their app to reflect the changes, once they happen. Itís going to be a crap storm for awhile.

a) he is a minority
b) majors hire FOs all the time with 0 TPIC.

V12Merlin
02-04-2019, 09:16 AM
Sullys wise words of advice to the airlines and the general public have died on the vine.

All you need to get on with the ďbigsĒ is some kinda ďgimmick ď, or hustle, or some bullsh!t ďminorityĒ status. Then youíre golden. Skills, ability,experience,and hard work donít mean squat.
Thatís really too bad.

envoyCA
02-04-2019, 06:54 PM
a) he is a minority
b) majors hire FOs all the time with 0 TPIC.

And how so is he a minority? He is a white male:confused:

SoFloFlyer
02-04-2019, 07:09 PM
He has instructed at UND and might even have his CFII? He commuted from UND on long breaks like summer, winter break, and spring break to fly right seat and log LEGAL 135 experience (not gonna debate legality of SIC in Caravan. FAA allows with that operator so it is what it is) in Hawaii. Flew multiple legs a day for low pay in Hawaii, earned a scholarship allowing him to get typed in some sort of corporate jet his senior year, excelled academically, and still managed to put out content on YouTube.

Not to mention that he networks and has a 4 year degree. I donít think heíll upgrade before moving on, but I know people at Delta without TPIC so take that for what itís worth. Again, like him or hate him, heís done all the things to standout from his peers.

P.S. Heís minotiy because heís gay (just answering a comment from the previous page).

envoyCA
02-04-2019, 07:16 PM
He has instructed at UND and might even have his CFII? He commuted from UND on long breaks like summer, winter break, and spring break to fly right seat and log LEGAL 135 experience (not gonna debate legality of SIC in Caravan. FAA allows with that operator so it is what it is) in Hawaii. Flew multiple legs a day for low pay in Hawaii, earned a scholarship allowing him to get typed in some sort of corporate jet his senior year, excelled academically, and still managed to put out content on YouTube.

Not to mention that he networks and has a 4 year degree. I donít think heíll upgrade before moving on, but I know people at Delta without TPIC so take that for what itís worth. Again, like him or hate him, heís done all the things to standout from his peers.

P.S. Heís minotiy because heís gay (just answering a comment from the previous page).

This thread is horrible what is wrong with people. You should be ashamed of yourselves . If this is the kind of crew I am working with I want out. I am messaging the mods to delete this completely useless thread, shouldnt even be a damn discussion.

You are all just sour , jealous and vindictive people.

Varsity
02-04-2019, 07:22 PM
He has instructed at UND and might even have his CFII? He commuted from UND on long breaks like summer, winter break, and spring break to fly right seat and log LEGAL 135 experience (not gonna debate legality of SIC in Caravan. FAA allows with that operator so it is what it is) in Hawaii. Flew multiple legs a day for low pay in Hawaii, earned a scholarship allowing him to get typed in some sort of corporate jet his senior year, excelled academically, and still managed to put out content on YouTube.

Not to mention that he networks and has a 4 year degree. I don’t think he’ll upgrade before moving on, but I know people at Delta without TPIC so take that for what it’s worth. Again, like him or hate him, he’s done all the things to standout from his peers.

P.S. He’s minotiy because he’s gay (just answering a comment from the previous page).

He never worked/instructed at UND. His first/only flying job was F/O at Mokulele, swinging gear on the caravan.

V12Merlin
02-04-2019, 07:46 PM
He has instructed at UND and might even have his CFII? He commuted from UND on long breaks like summer, winter break, and spring break to fly right seat and log LEGAL 135 experience (not gonna debate legality of SIC in Caravan. FAA allows with that operator so it is what it is) in Hawaii. Flew multiple legs a day for low pay in Hawaii, earned a scholarship allowing him to get typed in some sort of corporate jet his senior year, excelled academically, and still managed to put out content on YouTube.

Not to mention that he networks and has a 4 year degree. I donít think heíll upgrade before moving on, but I know people at Delta without TPIC so take that for what itís worth. Again, like him or hate him, heís done all the things to standout from his peers.

P.S. Heís minotiy because heís gay (just answering a comment from the previous page).



Whelp, there ya go. He will be getting called up any time now.

On second thought thoóI donít know if being gay will get it done by its self, judging by what I saw the last time I was at Envoy HQ. lots of happy people over there.

dera
02-04-2019, 07:52 PM
He never worked/instructed at UND. His first/only flying job was F/O at Mokulele, swinging gear on the caravan.

I see what you did there :D

pitchattitude
02-04-2019, 08:06 PM
I see what you did there :D

Maybe they had the 208RGs to prevent ice buildup.

Varsity
02-04-2019, 08:20 PM
Whelp, there ya go. He will be getting called up any time now.

On second thought thoóI donít know if being gay will get it done by its self, judging by what I saw the last time I was at Envoy HQ. lots of happy people over there.

Who are you looking at? I see a lot of unhappy people at enyhq. Especially in the cafeteria's unexplainably slow lunch line.

Upntheair27
02-04-2019, 09:15 PM
Captain Quick he didn't literally mean happy. Think outside the box.

Who are you looking at? I see a lot of unhappy people at enyhq. Especially in the cafeteria's unexplainably slow lunch line.

SoFloFlyer
02-04-2019, 10:46 PM
He never worked/instructed at UND. His first/only flying job was F/O at Mokulele, swinging gear on the caravan.

Could be, but I remember he made a video about getting his CFI early on on his senior year so ifk why he wouldnít instruct there. Also, North Dakota rarely has WX conducive for PPL training so Iíd guess that being a CFII would be the minimum. Thatís just a guess though

450knotOffice
02-04-2019, 11:09 PM
He never worked/instructed at UND. His first/only flying job was F/O at Mokulele, swinging gear on the caravan.

Unless you can back those statements up with indisputable evidence, I’ll assume you’re making **** up.

Give us your proof.

(Despite your jealousy and angst, this kid will do very well in his chosen career and will likely retire with a single digit number at one of the Legacies)

dera
02-04-2019, 11:16 PM
Some of you guys are real d*cks.
I bet if you flew with him, you wouldn't treat him the way you do in here. Talking about your colleagues like that online is pretty pathetic.
Grow up.

Cyio
02-05-2019, 03:21 AM
Some of you guys are real d*cks.
I bet if you flew with him, you wouldn't treat him the way you do in here. Talking about your colleagues like that online is pretty pathetic.
Grow up.

I never met him personally and honestly could care less about the guy other than I think it is utter **** that someone with a YouTube channel would get any priority over someone else. Yes, I will tell that to his face.

Also could care less what way his personal preferences go, but again I donít think that should be a determination of employment either.

MD-11Loader
02-05-2019, 05:46 AM
And how so is he a minority? He is a white male:confused:

Heís a member of NGPA which has no bearing on him as a person or professional, but he is a member of a protected class.

Cyio
02-05-2019, 06:44 AM
He’s a member of NGPA which has no bearing on him as a person or professional, but he is a member of a protected class.

So what? You can join as an ALLy and get all of the same benefits. Why does that mean anything? I have a son who is gay, does that somehow make me or him more or less qualified for a position in aviation? I encourage him to work hard and earn everything that he achieves, not get there through some organization.

PS Didn't mean to quote you MD.

Varsity
02-05-2019, 06:55 AM
Unless you can back those statements up with indisputable evidence, I’ll assume you’re making **** up.

Give us your proof.

(Despite your jealousy and angst, this kid will do very well in his chosen career and will likely retire with a single digit number at one of the Legacies)

Why are you so upset over this?

He said so twice in his own video. Is that enough proof for you?

https://youtu.be/aazv6uXOajo?t=55

He earned his CFI/II through UND, was never hired. Only job has been pulling gear in a caravan. Why do you think he's sitting in the left seat of all his 172 videos?

Pan Am, Eastern, TWA and Braniff were the 'legacies' 40 years ago. I don't think it 's a stretch to believe that the legacies of today won't exist in 40 years. The pilot profession as a whole will probably look a lot different if it still exists.

MD-11Loader
02-05-2019, 07:21 AM
So what? You can join as an ALLy and get all of the same benefits. Why does that mean anything? I have a son who is gay, does that somehow make me or him more or less qualified for a position in aviation? I encourage him to work hard and earn everything that he achieves, not get there through some organization.

PS Didn't mean to quote you MD.

No worries at all. It doesnít matter to me who I fly next to, or who they choose to love, be they heterosexual, homosexual, asexual, bisexual, trisexual, quadrisexual, pansexual, transexual, omnisexual or that thing where the chick ties the belt around your neck and tinkles on a ballon, it has absolutely nothing to do with who we are as people. All that matters is that they are safe, and that they donít chop the power and try to flare at 80í. Swayne is open and proud of who he is and even though he qualifies as a minority and a protected class, he doesnít seem to exploit it.

DreadWing
02-05-2019, 07:36 AM
I've been following hundreds of YT content creators for years (non-aviation). I haven't watched "television" in a decade.

He strikes me, whilst examining his videos, as someone with ZERO sense of humor. No traces of levity to be found. No sense of irony. No semblance of satire. I feel like I'm getting information from a machine intelligence.

Excellent camerawork and editing, though. The music is grotesque. Being constrained by what's in the catalogue of public domain doesn't mean it has to suck.

I gave him a subscription.



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