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View Full Version : Republic nearing deal to buy TSA


fortyeight
08-01-2018, 05:09 PM
Anyone have a membership and able to post the article? Or at least able to summarize? Can only get through two paragraphs before the article cuts off.


Base2Final
08-01-2018, 05:13 PM
https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/republic-airways-is-nearing-a-deal-to-buy-trans-states/

colonials13
08-01-2018, 05:31 PM
Anyone have a membership and able to post the article? Or at least able to summarize? Can only get through two paragraphs before the article cuts off.

Same here, link only gives first two paragraphs.


fortyeight
08-01-2018, 05:33 PM
https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/republic-airways-is-nearing-a-deal-to-buy-trans-states/

Without a membership we can only see the first two paragraphs.

FollowMe
08-01-2018, 06:08 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/1hxxmj.jpg

TheNotoriousPIC
08-01-2018, 06:22 PM
Good thing? Bad thing? A little of both?

knewyork
08-01-2018, 06:29 PM
Good thing? Bad thing? A little of both?

Good for everyone I think. More stability. Better contract at Republic. No more hulas bs.

FlyingKat
08-01-2018, 07:01 PM
Same here, link only gives first two paragraphs.

Says MOU has been signed recently formal announcement expected this month. Spokespeople for both companies had no comment. Then goes on to detail who and what both companies are. Combined carrier would be 75% the size of Skywest, big benefit is getting Trans States Pilots, talks about Republic bankruptcy, and says the deal could hurt the MRJ.

bscott58d
08-01-2018, 07:03 PM
Says MOU has been signed recently formal announcement expected this month. Spokespeople for both companies had no comment. Then goes on to detail who and what both companies are. Combined carrier would be 75% the size of Skywest, big benefit is getting Trans States Pilots, talks about Republic bankruptcy, and says the deal could hurt the MRJ.

Whatís the ďMRJĒ

Jungle Jim
08-01-2018, 07:03 PM
Whatís the ďMRJĒ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Regional_Jet

814Pilot
08-01-2018, 07:17 PM
Good or bad for the pilot group?

fortyeight
08-01-2018, 07:21 PM
Good or bad for the pilot group?

Depends on seniority. But Iíd say overwhelmingly good. With the landscape the regional market is headed towards I think this will be a good thing for both. Especially since Republic is one of the more established and ďstableĒ regionals.

TheNotoriousPIC
08-01-2018, 07:24 PM
So would tsa keep their 145s or is this one of the reasons Republic is scooping up 175s by the boatload?

DarkSideMoon
08-01-2018, 07:28 PM
So would tsa keep their 145s or is this one of the reasons Republic is scooping up 175s by the boatload?

Doesnít matter how many 175ís Republic has unless united pulls 50+ seat flying from another carrier.

FlyingKat
08-01-2018, 08:00 PM
Whatís the ďMRJĒ

A mysterious unicorn....:D

TCASTESTOK
08-01-2018, 08:01 PM
Anyone have a membership and able to post the article? Or at least able to summarize? Can only get through two paragraphs before the article cuts off.
Here thank me later.




Airlines (https://theaircurrent.com/category/airlines/)
Jon Ostrower (https://theaircurrent.com/author/jonostrower/)
August 1, 2018 (https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/republic-airways-is-nearing-a-deal-to-buy-trans-states/)
3 Min Read (https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/republic-airways-is-nearing-a-deal-to-buy-trans-states/)

Republic Airways is nearing a deal to buy Trans States

Another wave of U.S. airline consolidation is here.

Updated with Republic Airways declining to comment.
Republic Airways is nearing a deal to acquire U.S. regional airline Trans States Holdings, according to three people briefed on the matter.
The merger of the second and third largest regional airlines would mark another major consolidation in the U.S., where regional carriers have struggled to stay afloat amid a severe shortage of qualified aviators. (https://money.cnn.com/2017/07/27/news/companies/pilot-shortage-figures/)
The pair recently signed a Memorandum of Understanding establishing the preliminary terms for the acquisition, according to two of the people briefed on the talks. A formal announcement is expected as early as later this month. Both companies are privately held.
A spokesman for Indianapolis-based Republic Airways declined to comment. A spokeswoman for Bridgeton, Missouri-based Trans States didnít immediately respond to a request for comment.
Republic Airways and Trans States Holdings operates Go Jet Airlines (http://www.gojetairlines.com/Pages/gojetairlines.com.aspx), Compass Airlines (http://www.compassairline.com/Pages/default.aspx) and Trans States Airlines (http://www.transstates.net/Pages/home.aspx) on behalf of the three largest U.S. airlines. The combined carrier would be roughly 75% of the size of SkyWest Airways, the largest U.S. regional carrier, measured by Available Seat Miles in 2017.
ďTheyíve got to have a volume game, because their margins are being squeezedĒ by the three major U.S. airlines, said Henry Harteveldt, founder of the Atmosphere Research Group.
And despite Republicís profitability, the carrier filed for bankruptcy in 2016 citing the acute shortage of pilots as part of its need to revamp its corporate operations. Republic exited Chapter 11 bankruptcy (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170501005543/en/Republic-Airways-Exits-Chapter-11-Streamlined-Positioned) restructuring in April 2017.
Further, said Harteveldt, ďone of of the big benefits is getting access to Trans States pilot corps.Ē
The union could also have broad implications for the manufacturers of regional jets, removing a customer from the market as part of the overall consolidation. The deal could potentially be a major blow to Mitsubishiís ambitions to secure a spot for its new Mitsubishi Regional Jet in The U.S..
Trans States holds a commitment for 50 airplanes, but has so far been limited by scope clauses that limit operation of the MRJ90 in the U.S. Trans States, along with Sky West, has options to convert to the 76 seat MRJ70. Republic is exclusively a user of Embraer aircraft and at the Farnborough Airshow signed an agreement committing to 100 additional E175 jets.

TheNotoriousPIC
08-01-2018, 08:27 PM
So all of this is pretty wild stuff, and confusing as well. Details remain, but what I'm wondering is as someone with a class date a few weeks off, will I possibly be trained for something other than the 170/175? I'm already deep into the provided 170/175 study guide.

SoFloFlyer
08-01-2018, 09:00 PM
I knew there was more to that huge order of E175s. Super exciting stuff to say the least.

WildBlue025
08-01-2018, 09:08 PM
So all of this is pretty wild stuff, and confusing as well. Details remain, but what I'm wondering is as someone with a class date a few weeks off, will I possibly be trained for something other than the 170/175? I'm already deep into the provided 170/175 study guide.

ďB-b-b-but, my shiny jet!!!! For the love of god donít take away my beautiful shiny jet!!!!!!Ē

SoFloFlyer
08-01-2018, 09:13 PM
So all of this is pretty wild stuff, and confusing as well. Details remain, but what I'm wondering is as someone with a class date a few weeks off, will I possibly be trained for something other than the 170/175? I'm already deep into the provided 170/175 study guide.

I think youíll okay. You got the study guide and with the massive order from Embraer, looks like theyíll be replacing the 145 in the few years

TheNotoriousPIC
08-01-2018, 09:19 PM
ďB-b-b-but, my shiny jet!!!! For the love of god donít take away my beautiful shiny jet!!!!!!Ē

Hey, I'll be the first to admit that there is a bit of truth to this. The more I learn about the 175 the cooler I think it is.

FlyingSlowly
08-01-2018, 09:30 PM
Hey, I'll be the first to admit that there is a bit of truth to this. The more I learn about the 175 the cooler I think it is.

SJS first... Whipsaw later.

Do you really think RAH is going to merge pilot groups and operating certificates?

OO has shown them the way. If you can't whipsaw your pilots against another carrier, buy another carrier (or two, or even three) and whipsaw your own employee groups against each other!

Mark my words... This will likely not be a huge benefit to the pilot group. Just ask the ASA and XJT people how well things are going. And legacy OO is not unicorns and rainbows either!!!

TCASTESTOK
08-01-2018, 09:35 PM
I think youíll okay. You got the study guide and with the massive order from Embraer, looks like theyíll be replacing the 145 in the few years
Its ok the study guides came free with the purchase of 100 or more Ejets.

TheNotoriousPIC
08-01-2018, 09:40 PM
Well if nothing else this thing will take a long time to come to fruition. A merger like this would be pretty complicated (different planes, different regions, different unions) and might not even be approved by regulators.

So I'm going to keep studying my E170/175 guide :D

Slowhawk
08-01-2018, 09:50 PM
FWIW the Compass pilot group is losing its collective mind

Excargodog
08-01-2018, 10:00 PM
FWIW the Compass pilot group is losing its collective mind
Given that every swinging di...., that is, that every person now employed by Compass will probably have upgraded to captain and maybe even left for greener pastures LONG before this could actually happen, I'd have to agree.

ZippyTWS
08-01-2018, 10:15 PM
Wonder if this is related to why skywest was pushing that TA so hard and went off to pout when they pilot group declined?

Bellinbiker
08-01-2018, 10:20 PM
SJS first... Whipsaw later.

Do you really think RAH is going to merge pilot groups and operating certificates?

OO has shown them the way. If you can't whipsaw your pilots against another carrier, buy another carrier (or two, or even three) and whipsaw your own employee groups against each other!

Mark my words... This will likely not be a huge benefit to the pilot group. Just ask the ASA and XJT people how well things are going. And legacy OO is not unicorns and rainbows either!!!


The contract that all pilot under the republic airways holdings be on the same list. Why else were the frontier pilots on the same list?

Swakid8
08-02-2018, 04:02 AM
The only differences between TSH/Republic and OO/XJT is that TSH/Republic are both union shops and hopefully can have a better opportunity to stop the whipsaw.

Arliss
08-02-2018, 05:08 AM
One thing complicating a pilot group merger is differences in unions. RAH and I think GoJet are Teamsters, TSA and CZ are ALPA. You'd have to agree to one or the other.

4V14T0R
08-02-2018, 05:32 AM
One thing complicating a pilot group merger is differences in unions. RAH and I think GoJet are Teamsters, TSA and CZ are ALPA. You'd have to agree to one or the other.

Yeah itís gonna be a trainwreck. Iím not sure theres ever been a merge of 4 airlines into one. All at the same time.

We will all vote on who to use as our union going forward. We will merge lists. Lastly we will amalgamate the contracts. This is going to be such a CF.

814Pilot
08-02-2018, 05:34 AM
ďBy Corporate Communications 8/01/2018 10:14 PM
Tonight a story reported Republic Airways is nearing a deal to buy Trans States Holdings. Over the past several months there have been many rumored transactions involving our industry peers. We will not comment on any rumors or speculate about events that may or may not happen in the market. Rest assured that when and if there is any news of this sort, we will announce it directly to our Associates and our partners. In the meantime, we will remain focused on what we do best Ė delivering the safest, cleanest and most reliable product available in the industry. That is the surest way to ensure success as our airline prepares for the next stage of growth.

The Executive Leadership Team ď

FlyingKat
08-02-2018, 05:58 AM
ďBy Corporate Communications 8/01/2018 10:14 PM
Tonight a story reported Republic Airways is nearing a deal to buy Trans States Holdings. Over the past several months there have been many rumored transactions involving our industry peers. We will not comment on any rumors or speculate about events that may or may not happen in the market. Rest assured that when and if there is any news of this sort, we will announce it directly to our Associates and our partners. In the meantime, we will remain focused on what we do best Ė delivering the safest, cleanest and most reliable product available in the industry. That is the surest way to ensure success as our airline prepares for the next stage of growth.

The Executive Leadership Team ď

Thats not a denial....

CBreezy
08-02-2018, 06:51 AM
ďBy Corporate Communications 8/01/2018 10:14 PM
Tonight a story reported Republic Airways is nearing a deal to buy Trans States Holdings. Over the past several months there have been many rumored transactions involving our industry peers. We will not comment on any rumors or speculate about events that may or may not happen in the market. Rest assured that when and if there is any news of this sort, we will announce it directly to our Associates and our partners. In the meantime, we will remain focused on what we do best Ė delivering the safest, cleanest and most reliable product available in the industry. That is the surest way to ensure success as our airline prepares for the next stage of growth.

The Executive Leadership Team ď

Cleanest? That's something you do best?

Excargodog
08-02-2018, 07:10 AM
One thing complicating a pilot group merger is differences in unions. RAH and I think GoJet are Teamsters, TSA and CZ are ALPA. You'd have to agree to one or the other.

You seriously believe that can happen quickly? Or that that's the ONLY holdup?

Virgin America and Alaska were both ALPA IIRC, and two and a half years later are still both negotiating with the RLA mediators about how to merge the seniority lists, with considerable angst and no little animosity on both sides.

This deal, if it really comes off, would involve FOUR different pilot groups as well as two different unions. I picture a three year process minimum, especially since fifty-seater contracts will at least have to be wound down if not renewed a time or two before any real consolidation can occur and in the interim brings into play what a 50 PAX aircraft aircrew should get paid versus a 70 PAX aircraft crew versus a 76 PAX
Aircraft crew.

This thing has administrative cluster#|<^ written all over it. Absent huge signing bonuses to all concerned, three years in transition is probably foolishly optimistic.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 07:19 AM
If youíre at Republic, prepare early for the Seniority List Integration. Basically street captains at TSA, and Gojets. Compass number 10 CA has been there 6 years. If they do a tier integration, Repulic will probably get the short end of stick. I suspect the SLI will take years, but make sure the IBT hears your voices loud and clear. Probably talk to the tier 3 pilots from the last merger.

FlyingKat
08-02-2018, 07:19 AM
You seriously believe that can happen quickly? Or that that's the ONLY holdup?

Virgin America and Alaska were both ALPA IIRC, and two and a half years later are still both negotiating with the RLA mediators about how to merge the seniority lists, with considerable angst and no little animosity on both sides.

This deal, if it really comes off, would involve FOUR different pilot groups as well as two different unions. I picture a three year process minimum, especially since fifty-seater contracts will at least have to be wound down if not renewed a time or two before any real consolidation can occur and in the interim brings into play what a 50 PAX aircraft aircrew should get paid versus a 70 PAX aircraft crew versus a 76 PAX
Aircraft crew.

This thing has administrative cluster#|<^ written all over it. Absent huge signing bonuses to all concerned, three years in transition is probably foolishly optimistic.

You are comparing apples to oranges. The career expectations of pilots at Alaska/Virgin are very different than Republic/TSH. This will go a lot smoother than you think. There is so much movement going on right now at both of these companies most don't expect to be here very long, and Republic needs all of them and is going to have to recruit a bunch more so I suspect everyone will be treated fairly and will be able to get fair integration for all.

TJBrass
08-02-2018, 07:20 AM
Yeah itís gonna be a trainwreck. Iím not sure theres ever been a merge of 4 airlines into one. All at the same time.

We will all vote on who to use as our union going forward. We will merge lists. Lastly we will amalgamate the contracts. This is going to be such a CF.

Maybe not. One group delivered a leading contract, the other three....

ORD170
08-02-2018, 07:24 AM
Yeah itís gonna be a trainwreck. Iím not sure theres ever been a merge of 4 airlines into one. All at the same time.

We will all vote on who to use as our union going forward. We will merge lists. Lastly we will amalgamate the contracts. This is going to be such a CF.

Republic did this with YX, F9, Lynx, and Republic. Yeah is was a blood bath for junior guys at republic, and those close to upgrade. I suspect you guys will not be one list for years.

FlyingKat
08-02-2018, 07:38 AM
Republic did this with YX, F9, Lynx, and Republic. Yeah is was a blood bath for junior guys at republic, and those close to upgrade. I suspect you guys will not be one list for years.

I don't know about that. Most TSA guys I have talked to would be happy with a straight DOH integration with fences. TSA doesn't have street captains. They are CQFOs who are technically FOs qualified to fly as Captains. Blowjet has street captains but if those guys get screwed in a DOH integration most TSA guys won't give a rip. Plus if the Gojet DL planes go elsewhere the pilots could always go with them.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 07:42 AM
I don't know about that. Most TSA guys I have talked to would be happy with a straight DOH integration with fences. TSA doesn't have street captains. They are CQFOs who are technically FOs qualified to fly as Captains. Blowjet has street captains but if those guys get screwed in a DOH integration most TSA guys won't give a rip. Plus if the Gojet DL planes go elsewhere the pilots could always go with them.

Google McCaskill-Bond Amendment. The arbitrator will decide what is ďfair and equatableĒ. I doubt you will see DOH, because that would probably screw lifers at TSH. Probably a tier integration (happen with last integration at republic or by seat positions with fences.

KCaviator
08-02-2018, 07:44 AM
FWIW the Compass pilot group is losing its collective mind

I heard 6 years is the top of the seniority list at Compass? Good luck, thatíll only get you to about 50% at Republic.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 07:48 AM
I heard 6 years is the top of the seniority list at Compass? Good luck, thatíll only get you to about 50% at Republic.

I know a Checkairman at Compass. Number 12 I think, and he was hired in summer 2012. Very junior group after the flow guys left.

McCringleberry
08-02-2018, 07:50 AM
As someone considering republic, do you think this would be a bad time to get in?

4V14T0R
08-02-2018, 08:04 AM
Republic did this with YX, F9, Lynx, and Republic. Yeah is was a blood bath for junior guys at republic, and those close to upgrade. I suspect you guys will not be one list for years.

I didnít realize that was all at one time. Do you remember how big Lynx and Midwest were? IIRC, F9 was 700-1000 pilots (at the time.)

4V14T0R
08-02-2018, 08:04 AM
As someone considering republic, do you think this would be a bad time to get in?

No. Filler...

FlyingKat
08-02-2018, 08:20 AM
Google McCaskill-Bond Amendment. The arbitrator will decide what is ďfair and equatableĒ. I doubt you will see DOH, because that would probably screw lifers at TSH. Probably a tier integration (happen with last integration at republic or by seat positions with fences.

The arbitrator won't get involved if the parties come to an agreement. While you're on google, you also might want to look at Allegheny-Mohawk....

Excargodog
08-02-2018, 08:47 AM
The arbitrator won't get involved if the parties come to an agreement. While you're on google, you also might want to look at Allegheny-Mohawk....

The parties come to an agreement? LOL

the Alaska and Virgin pilots STILL haven't come to an agreement merging their seniority lists. It's still in arbitration, and both groups were ALPA and flying comparable equipment.

If this happens, you will have four (4) pilot groups with two DIFFERENT unions flying different equipment, some of it having to be 50 seat because the guy in the other end of the contract is scoped out for 70/76 seaters, and all four groups have contracts that differ in wages and bennies.

This will take five years minimum to get everyone under one set of rules.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 09:17 AM
The arbitrator won't get involved if the parties come to an agreement. While you're on google, you also might want to look at Allegheny-Mohawk....

Thatís true, but that hasnít happened in decades. The Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs are only required because of Mccaskill Bond. A four airline SLI without arbitration isnít going to happen. The good news is most folks impacted by this will be gone by the time the SLI is implemented.

Unless BB required the unions at TSH to take DOH SLI. Didnít work out so well at SW.

atdhockey
08-02-2018, 09:20 AM
Yeah itís gonna be a trainwreck. Iím not sure theres ever been a merge of 4 airlines into one. All at the same time.

We will all vote on who to use as our union going forward. We will merge lists. Lastly we will amalgamate the contracts. This is going to be such a CF.

Actually you're incorrect you most likely wont vote on a Representational Body.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 09:23 AM
The parties come to an agreement? LOL

the Alaska and Virgin pilots STILL haven't come to an agreement merging their seniority lists. It's still in arbitration, and both groups were ALPA and flying comparable equipment.

If this happens, you will have four (4) pilot groups with two DIFFERENT unions flying different equipment, some of it having to be 50 seat because the guy in the other end of the contract is scoped out for 70/76 seaters, and all four groups have contracts that differ in wages and bennies.

This will take five years minimum to get everyone under one set of rules.

This! I also believe they have to integrate all four at the same time. The question is can BB put those 175s on a TSH certificate before a final SLI.

4V14T0R
08-02-2018, 09:26 AM
Actually you're incorrect you most likely wont vote on a Representational Body.

How do you figure?

Tpinks
08-02-2018, 09:26 AM
The parties come to an agreement? LOL

the Alaska and Virgin pilots STILL haven't come to an agreement merging their seniority lists. It's still in arbitration, and both groups were ALPA and flying comparable equipment.

If this happens, you will have four (4) pilot groups with two DIFFERENT unions flying different equipment, some of it having to be 50 seat because the guy in the other end of the contract is scoped out for 70/76 seaters, and all four groups have contracts that differ in wages and bennies.

This will take five years minimum to get everyone under one set of rules.

You realize that Republic has a **** ton of history of merging airlines right? Since 2009, they have merged, Frontier, Lynx, Midwest, Chautauqua and Shuttle in various forms. If there is one airline that I would expect to be able to do it, it would be Republic, for better or for worse.

Secondly, the aircraft issue is not an issue at all. I fully believe republic would still be flying the 145 if they could have staffed them then. The 145's and the Q's were the easiest fleets to get rid of while the company was shrinking and it made sense to pool all of their pilot resources into the 170's.

Now we are finally growing our seniority list and have gotten above our 2015 CBA levels for the first time. Now with the Lift Academy going, they should be able to staff everything.

Our contract still has 50 seat rates.

My prediction: we won't be merging all the certificates. You will see the seniority list integration and a single contract first. Then Compass will be merged, with the fleet and pilots being transferred to the republic certificate (our contract actually allows republic pilots to staff Compass planes and flying if need be). Gojets will be liquidated over time with the pilots being transferred to the republic certificate as new Ejets are delivered to replace CRJ's. Trans states I think will eventually be wound into the Republic certificate, but it will be the last airline for integration.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 09:27 AM
I didnít realize that was all at one time. Do you remember how big Lynx and Midwest were? IIRC, F9 was 700-1000 pilots (at the time.)

Lynx was small (50 or so Pilots), and they had a different union (not ALPA or Teamsters). Many at Midwest around 100 accepted recall. You guys should be bigger then Skywest if this deal closes.

Excargodog
08-02-2018, 09:29 AM
I heard 6 years is the top of the seniority list at Compass? Good luck, thatíll only get you to about 50% at Republic.


Nope. After the lists are combined that guy/gal would still be right at the top. It won't be DOH in the merge.

Besides, dang few of the guys/gals currently at Compass will still be there. Typically they are off to a major after 3-4 years, and this will take at least that long to get unstuck.

atdhockey
08-02-2018, 09:32 AM
How do you figure?
In 2012 the RLA was amended its a lot different for a merger than it was in 2009.

ORD170
08-02-2018, 09:32 AM
You realize that Republic has a **** ton of history of merging airlines right? Since 2009, they have merged, Frontier, Lynx, Midwest, Chautauqua and Shuttle in various forms. If there is one airline that I would expect to be able to do it, it would be Republic, for better or for worse.

Itís not BB that will agree to the SLI. The unions will try and agree on a ďfair and equatableĒ list. If that doesnít happen then they will pay some guy (arbitrator) to decide what is ďfair and equatableĒ. Also the shuttle SLI was in 2003 I think, and the last SLI (F9, YX, Lynx, and Repulic) didnít go so well for junior Republic FOs (tier 3) FOs.

atdhockey
08-02-2018, 09:33 AM
This! I also believe they have to integrate all four at the same time. The question is can BB put those 175s on a TSH certificate before a final SLI.
The answer is no.

Excargodog
08-02-2018, 09:42 AM
You realize that Republic has a **** ton of history of merging airlines right? Since 2009, they have merged, Frontier, Lynx, Midwest, Chautauqua and Shuttle in various forms. If there is one airline that I would expect to be able to do it, it would be Republic, for better or for worse.

Didn't say for a minute that they COULDN'T do it, simply that it was going to take them a half decade to do it. Nobody has even gotten federal approval for the deal yet, anti monopoly provisions have to
be considered, existing contracts with codeshare partners have to be considered, and then either four different pilot groups with different contracts must be bought off or convinced to make changes voluntarily to a CBA, and if that DOESN'T happen, and the probability of it happening is about one in a googleplex, it all goes to arbitration. Then once the arbitration people hammer out a CBA, the two unions representing four different pilot groups can start working on the SLI.

Alaska bought Virgin America and have been working under their CBA for two and a half years now and their SLI is still in arbitration. And they were both the same Union and flying comparable equipment.

Can Republic get this to happen? Sure. Will it happen quickly? Only if Republic is willing to make an offer so tempting that all four pilot groups will immediately jump on it. And even then you have federal regulatory lag time.

WakeWash
08-02-2018, 10:02 AM
Little late in all the news happening now, but with scope maxed out at every airline, who is republic going to fly those 100 175s for? Iím sure a few are replacements, but seriously all majors are maxed out on large RJs.

atdhockey
08-02-2018, 10:22 AM
Little late in all the news happening now, but with scope maxed out at every airline, who is republic going to fly those 100 175s for? Iím sure a few are replacements, but seriously all majors are maxed out on large RJs.

Scope isn't maxed out....

atdhockey
08-02-2018, 10:23 AM
Didn't say for a minute that they COULDN'T do it, simply that it was going to take them a half decade to do it. Nobody has even gotten federal approval for the deal yet, anti monopoly provisions have to
be considered, existing contracts with codeshare partners have to be considered, and then either four different pilot groups with different contracts must be bought off or convinced to make changes voluntarily to a CBA, and if that DOESN'T happen, and the probability of it happening is about one in a googleplex, it all goes to arbitration. Then once the arbitration people hammer out a CBA, the two unions representing four different pilot groups can start working on the SLI.

Alaska bought Virgin America and have been working under their CBA for two and a half years now and their SLI is still in arbitration. And they were both the same Union and flying comparable equipment.

Can Republic get this to happen? Sure. Will it happen quickly? Only if Republic is willing to make an offer so tempting that all four pilot groups will immediately jump on it. And even then you have federal regulatory lag time.
Yes, and all thats been accounted for. The final hurdle will be the Labor Groups.

fortyeight
08-02-2018, 10:30 AM
Little late in all the news happening now, but with scope maxed out at every airline, who is republic going to fly those 100 175s for? Iím sure a few are replacements, but seriously all majors are maxed out on large RJs.

Sell or lease GoJets CRJs since the CRJ is crap anyway. Put the new 170s on order on those routes. No problem with scope.

4V14T0R
08-02-2018, 11:19 AM
In 2012 the RLA was amended its a lot different for a merger than it was in 2009.

Can you share the amendment? As far as I see, including the 2012 amendment, we would still vote on who represents us going forward.

N914FJ
08-02-2018, 12:02 PM
Fwiw,TSH put out a memo similar to the one YX put out.

WakeWash
08-02-2018, 12:39 PM
Scope isn't maxed out....

Kirby asked the United pilots for scope reliefs cause itís maxed, they said no. Delta isnít growing itís regional flying, and is actually configuring the new 900s itís buying to make them ďsmallĒ rjs. AA also reconfigured 700s to turn them into ďsmallĒ RJs so that they could add a few more large ones, in addition to focusing on growing all all of it WOs with 175s to Envoy and even more 900s to PSA. So it looks maxed out to me, and Iím still not seeing who these 175s will fly for....

Sell or lease GoJets CRJs since the CRJ is crap anyway. Put the new 170s on order on those routes. No problem with scope.

This actually makes the most sense, but how many CRJs do they fly? Never paid attention to how big GoJet is to be honest.

KCaviator
08-02-2018, 01:13 PM
What I could see happening is this IF Republic does indeed buy TSH:

BB will keep all certificates separate until the TSA and GoJet birds come off their respective contracts. At that time, heíll ditch the 145s and 700s and replace them with the 100 175s that are on order. These aircraft will be placed under the Republic certificate, and the pilots at TSA and GoJet will transfer over. TSA and GoJet certificates will eventually be forfeited. Compass will then merge with the Republic certificate at some point during this process. So at the end of the day, itíll be an all 175 fleet with the pilots from Compass/TSA/GoJet all under one certificate.

How thisíll work with the unions and one seniority list, I have no ****ing clue.

FlyingKat
08-02-2018, 01:19 PM
The parties come to an agreement? LOL

the Alaska and Virgin pilots STILL haven't come to an agreement merging their seniority lists. It's still in arbitration, and both groups were ALPA and flying comparable equipment.

If this happens, you will have four (4) pilot groups with two DIFFERENT unions flying different equipment, some of it having to be 50 seat because the guy in the other end of the contract is scoped out for 70/76 seaters, and all four groups have contracts that differ in wages and bennies.

This will take five years minimum to get everyone under one set of rules.

The AK/Virgin merger will be nothing like this merger. The pilot groups are completely different and have different issues.

atdhockey
08-02-2018, 01:20 PM
Kirby asked the United pilots for scope reliefs cause itís maxed, they said no. Delta isnít growing itís regional flying, and is actually configuring the new 900s itís buying to make them ďsmallĒ rjs. AA also reconfigured 700s to turn them into ďsmallĒ RJs so that they could add a few more large ones, in addition to focusing on growing all all of it WOs with 175s to Envoy and even more 900s to PSA. So it looks maxed out to me, and Iím still not seeing who these 175s will fly for....



This actually makes the most sense, but how many CRJs do they fly? Never paid attention to how big GoJet is to be honest.

AA isnít maxed out nor is Alaska. Thereís other carriers that arenít either.

FlyingKat
08-02-2018, 01:23 PM
The parties come to an agreement? LOL

the Alaska and Virgin pilots STILL haven't come to an agreement merging their seniority lists. It's still in arbitration, and both groups were ALPA and flying comparable equipment.

If this happens, you will have four (4) pilot groups with two DIFFERENT unions flying different equipment, some of it having to be 50 seat because the guy in the other end of the contract is scoped out for 70/76 seaters, and all four groups have contracts that differ in wages and bennies.

This will take five years minimum to get everyone under one set of rules.

Sell or lease GoJets CRJs since the CRJ is crap anyway. Put the new 170s on order on those routes. No problem with scope.

The 25 Blowjet 700s will be returned and replaced by the 25 175s UAL announced recently.

Comair birds will be reassigned in the Delta system, likely Endeavor.

Pilots will likely end up at Republic, but you never know till the details come out.

Excargodog
08-02-2018, 01:29 PM
The AK/Virgin merger will be nothing like this merger. The pilot groups are completely different and have different issues.


Which will make it more cumbersome - not easier - to merge them.

Therealseal
08-02-2018, 02:47 PM
Does this have any implications for the IND base?

knewyork
08-02-2018, 04:16 PM
Does this have any implications for the IND base?

Yeah, itíll get bigger. Lol but seriously, itís not going anywhere.

TJBrass
08-02-2018, 07:29 PM
The SEA flying will be staffed from CMH.

fortyeight
08-02-2018, 07:34 PM
The SEA flying will be staffed from CMH.

ORD will close and all flying will shift to CMH, IND, and our new SDF base. Welcome to Republic.

Excargodog
08-02-2018, 07:40 PM
The SEA flying will be staffed from CMH.

Yeah, only 1747 nautical miles apart.

That ought to work.

:rolleyes:

Rahlifer
08-02-2018, 08:56 PM
Yeah, only 1747 nautical miles apart.

That ought to work.

:rolleyes:

We used to staff Miami flying out of ORD when we did American flying. One thing about RP is that we just canít seem to shake to outstation staffing model even when flying out of hub cities.

chrisreedrules
08-03-2018, 03:42 AM
We used to staff Miami flying out of ORD when we did American flying. One thing about RP is that we just canít seem to shake to outstation staffing model even when flying out of hub cities.

Per our management at PSA (the other other outstation regional), outstation basing is desirable for scheduling efficiency reasons. They get an extra leg at the beginning and end of a trip that they otherwise wouldnít if you were hub-based.

hawk21
08-03-2018, 09:40 AM
Wonder if this is related to why skywest was pushing that TA so hard and went off to pout when they pilot group declined?


That "TA" was purely to take away our profit based bonuses. They pushed those on us and then Trump Tax Reform came and now they're freaking out.

ZippyTWS
08-03-2018, 09:52 AM
That "TA" was purely to take away our profit based bonuses. They pushed those on us and then Trump Tax Reform came and now they're freaking out.I'm only asking out of pure ignorance but what was their motivation behind doing that? Why did the tax reforms make it worse?

Excargodog
08-03-2018, 02:20 PM
They get an extra leg at the beginning and end of a trip that they otherwise wouldnít if you were hub-based.

Despite having once (long ago) actually taken a college course on queuing theory I don't quite see how that would work. Or why they would care, since our work limitations are based upon hours and not legs.

Care to attempt to enlighten us?

FlyingKat
08-03-2018, 02:58 PM
Despite having once (long ago) actually taken a college course on queuing theory I don't quite see how that would work. Or why they would care, since our work limitations are based upon hours and not legs.

Care to attempt to enlighten us?

The reason for outstation basing is cost. Operating at outstation airports is cheaper than hub airports and you eliminate hotel costs for overnights.

Excargodog
08-03-2018, 04:05 PM
The reason for outstation basing is cost. Operating at outstation airports is cheaper than hub airports and you eliminate hotel costs for overnights.

That makes marginally better sense to me with regards to the basing at least. And yes, hotels probably are somewhat cheaper away from hub airports as well. I fail totally to see how it somehow adds two legs to a trip though.

WesternSkies
08-03-2018, 05:13 PM
The merger hopium devolved pretty quickly in a hypothetical thread.

*typically* An outstation will have an even number of legs to start and end a trip where a hub will have an odd number. That means nothing really except that 4 legs per day is more likely to be practical than 5 while being one more than 3.

Taco Cat
08-03-2018, 08:15 PM
The merger hopium devolved pretty quickly in a hypothetical thread.

*typically* An outstation will have an even number of legs to start and end a trip where a hub will have an odd number. That means nothing really except that 4 legs per day is more likely to be practical than 5 while being one more than 3.

Nope.... being outstation based has nothing to do with legs you fly... there are some GREAT 3 legs/day, 2 day trips that credit 14 hours... Good mix if you bid smart... YMMV

FlyingDawgg
08-03-2018, 08:58 PM
Trans States and GoJet's fleet combined is right over 100. Republic places an order for 100 E-Jets. Hmmmmm?

JayD
08-04-2018, 03:32 AM
Trans States and GoJet's fleet combined is right over 100. Republic places an order for 100 E-Jets. Hmmmmm?

That math seems to work until you realize Trans States flies around 40 E145s for United which is maxed out on scope so those canít be replaced by E175s. Then you have to consider Unitedís order for 25 E175SCs to replace CR7s and you may notice that GoJet flies exactly 25 CR7s for United.

Republic does have around 60 older E170s that likely will need replacing soon... The plot thickens!

sflpilot
08-04-2018, 03:53 AM
ORD will close and all flying will shift to CMH, IND, and our new SDF base. Welcome to Republic.

Re-open GRR and BUF to staff the LAX and PHX flying. Happy deadheading.

WesternSkies
08-04-2018, 05:01 AM
Nope.... being outstation based has nothing to do with legs you fly... there are some GREAT 3 legs/day, 2 day trips that credit 14 hours... Good mix if you bid smart... YMMV

Hahahaha .

chrisreedrules
08-04-2018, 05:30 AM
Despite having once (long ago) actually taken a college course on queuing theory I don't quite see how that would work. Or why they would care, since our work limitations are based upon hours and not legs.

Care to attempt to enlighten us?

Thatís just what I was told. I truthfully donít agree with it. I think any real ďefficiencyĒ benefit of an extra leg here and there is far outweighed by the fact that you are then forced to deadhead reserves to the hubs.

Ratm0820
08-04-2018, 01:46 PM
Is sdf rumored to open back up as a crew base?

Bonanzer
08-04-2018, 04:20 PM
Thatís just what I was told. I truthfully donít agree with it. I think any real ďefficiencyĒ benefit of an extra leg here and there is far outweighed by the fact that you are then forced to deadhead reserves to the hubs.

Not really sure the reasoning. I was told the outstations allow for crews to based in one airport and fly for all three codeshares.

WesternSkies
08-04-2018, 07:08 PM
Not really sure the reasoning. I was told the outstations allow for crews to based in one airport and fly for all three codeshares.

That isnít a thing.
Where in the world.

ORD170
08-05-2018, 12:37 PM
Per our management at PSA (the other other outstation regional), outstation basing is desirable for scheduling efficiency reasons. They get an extra leg at the beginning and end of a trip that they otherwise wouldnít if you were hub-based.

Outstation bases are great for management and pilots who live in base. They suck for pilots who commute.

ThSilliestGoose
08-06-2018, 08:14 PM
The reason for outstation basing is cost. Operating at outstation airports is cheaper than hub airports and you eliminate hotel costs for overnights.

Newbie question: how does outstation basing eliminate hotel costs for overnights? The pilots still have to overnight somewhere? Or do outstation bases have a lot more 1-day trips than hubs?

DarkSideMoon
08-06-2018, 08:27 PM
Newbie question: how does outstation basing eliminate hotel costs for overnights? The pilots still have to overnight somewhere? Or do outstation bases have a lot more 1-day trips than hubs?

The cost is basically shifted onto commuting pilots. Instead of having overnights in a MX base they start/end trips there and crew via people who are based there so thereís no hotels.

FlyingKat
08-07-2018, 06:21 PM
Rumor floating around that there will be Republic people in STL tomorrow evaluating IOCC.....

BobbyLeeSwagger
08-07-2018, 06:45 PM
Rumor floating around that there will be Republic people in the STL tomorrow evaluating IOCC.....

https://i.imgflip.com/2fh952.jpg

FlyingKat
08-07-2018, 06:50 PM
Newbie question: how does outstation basing eliminate hotel costs for overnights? The pilots still have to overnight somewhere? Or do outstation bases have a lot more 1-day trips than hubs?

The outstation base would be an overnight at a hotel if it were flown by a hub based crew. Some airlines (CC Air, Piedmont, and pre Pinnacle Colgan) used to have a number of outstation bases and mostly operate day trips to eliminate hotel costs.

FlyingKat
08-07-2018, 06:53 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/2fh952.jpg

Yep. For the love of God let IOCC die in this deal....

DragonFlyer14
08-07-2018, 07:31 PM
Another newbie here but what is IOCC?

FlyingKat
08-07-2018, 07:47 PM
Another newbie here but what is IOCC?

Scheduling and dispatch system from Lufthansa that Trans States Holdings started switching to in 2016. It sucks, to be kind, and the LIDOS are even worse.....

https://www.lhsystems.com/iocc-integrated-operations-control-center-platform

WhatsV1
08-07-2018, 08:45 PM
Does Rep have a company wide call scheduled this month?

FlyingKat
08-07-2018, 08:53 PM
Does Rep have a company wide call scheduled this month?

TSA has one tomorrow at 11 Central. It was originally scheduled two weeks ago and was moved to tomorrow. Get your popcorn ready....

Geardownflaps30
08-08-2018, 09:44 AM
Does Rep have a company wide call scheduled this month?

We donít do company calls. Emails for everything here. Or just ask an FA, Ramper or Gate Agent.

C37AFE
08-08-2018, 10:34 AM
Was denied or danced around today at tsa....

TruNorth
08-08-2018, 10:46 AM
It sucks, to be kind, and the LIDOS are even worse.....

https://www.lhsystems.com/iocc-integrated-operations-control-center-platform

Actually made an account just to say this - It's hard to overstate how bad IOCC is. Honestly while I don't like LIDO charts (and they are objectively worse), you can get used to them.

IOCC is hot garbage. Take LIDO if you must but fight IOCC with every ounce you have. Both barrels. Seriously, nothing has worked right since we transitioned and all the accountability is virtually gone.

WhatsV1
08-08-2018, 12:00 PM
TSA has one tomorrow at 11 Central. It was originally scheduled two weeks ago and was moved to tomorrow. Get your popcorn ready....

http://http://www.geek-pride.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/mjackson.gif

Ha

FlyingKat
08-08-2018, 12:56 PM
Actually made an account just to say this - It's hard to overstate how bad IOCC is. Honestly while I don't like LIDO charts (and they are objectively worse), you can get used to them.

IOCC is hot garbage. Take LIDO if you must but fight IOCC with every ounce you have. Both barrels. Seriously, nothing has worked right since we transitioned and all the accountability is virtually gone.

Had another IOCC crash this morning.....

ShooterMcGavin
08-09-2018, 06:14 AM
Had another IOCC crash this morning.....

Using a program designed in Germany for use by European carriers with no provisions for FAR One Hundred Seventeen,what could go wrong?

poorflyer
08-09-2018, 06:39 AM
Using a program designed in Germany for use by European carriers with no provisions for FAR One Hundred Seventeen,what could go wrong?

Everything, everything went wrong.

FlyingKat
08-09-2018, 01:46 PM
Using a program designed in Germany for use by European carriers with no provisions for FAR One Hundred Seventeen,what could go wrong?

But hey, its cheap and we got free LIDOS :D

ORD170
08-10-2018, 05:19 AM
But hey, its cheap and we got free LIDOS :D

From my experience, Republic will do whatever is cheapest. The EFB debacle comes to mind, but who knows maybe they have changed their ways.

fortyeight
08-10-2018, 12:20 PM
From my experience, Republic will do whatever is cheapest. The EFB debacle comes to mind, but who knows maybe they have changed their ways.

What was the EFB debacle? We have new iPads. Could be worse like skywest and use crap windows tablets instead.

4V14T0R
08-10-2018, 01:35 PM
What was the EFB debacle? We have new iPads. Could be worse like skywest and use crap windows tablets instead.



Heís talking well before the ipads. There were a couple tries at an efb prior to the ipads. And even the rollout of the iPad was kind of a Charlie Foxtrot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Captain Slow
08-10-2018, 03:11 PM
Heís talking well before the ipads. There were a couple tries at an efb prior to the ipads. And even the rollout of the iPad was kind of a Charlie Foxtrot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The whole industry tripped and fell about six times trying to make EFBís a thing before iPads became the standard. I would hardly say it was unique to Republic.

4V14T0R
08-10-2018, 03:39 PM
The whole industry tripped and fell about six times trying to make EFBís a thing before iPads became the standard. I would hardly say it was unique to Republic.



That very well may be, but thatís what was referenced earlier and I was simply offering an explanation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Captain Slow
08-10-2018, 03:48 PM
Thatís fair, I was just adding further context for those who didnít get to experience that glorious moment in aviation.

If we want to talk real tech implementation blunders... letís talk about the first gen Honeywell Primus VNAV from the late 80ís early 90ís, because that **** was straight terrifying. Glad that era has come and gone.

4V14T0R
08-10-2018, 04:02 PM
Thatís fair, I was just adding further context for those who didnít get to experience that glorious moment in aviation.



If we want to talk real tech implementation blunders... letís talk about the first gen Honeywell Primus VNAV from the late 80ís early 90ís, because that **** was straight terrifying. Glad that era has come and gone.



For all our sakes letís hope further technology ďimprovementsĒ go as poorly. Of course, without anyone being hurt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sflpilot
08-15-2018, 02:41 PM
Thatís fair, I was just adding further context for those who didnít get to experience that glorious moment in aviation.

If we want to talk real tech implementation blunders... letís talk about the first gen Honeywell Primus VNAV from the late 80ís early 90ís, because that **** was straight terrifying. Glad that era has come and gone.

Oh my gosh I donít want to get in to the history of VNAV. Yes the iPads have basically been a slow rolling train wreck, but most have worked out.

170driver
08-17-2018, 01:50 PM
Oh my gosh I donít want to get in to the history of VNAV. Yes the iPads have basically been a slow rolling train wreck, but most have worked out.



Itís ok, FMS speeds are going away here at YX. Back to manual speeds!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Captain Slow
08-17-2018, 04:56 PM
Itís ok, FMS speeds are going away here at YX. Back to manual speeds!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Allegedly itís an Embraer-issued mandate so Iíll be curious to see if the other 170 series operators do the same.

4V14T0R
08-17-2018, 05:22 PM
Allegedly itís an Embraer-issued mandate so Iíll be curious to see if the other 170 series operators do the same.



I must be missing something. What are you guys talking about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Captain Slow
08-17-2018, 05:32 PM
FMS speeds for approach and go around are going away. No reason stated yet other than that Embraer wanted it. Manual speeds only. Expect it in a new SOP revision soon.

And I havenít even figured out how to say ďVappĒ after ďFlaps 5Ē yet.

4V14T0R
08-18-2018, 02:33 AM
FMS speeds for approach and go around are going away. No reason stated yet other than that Embraer wanted it. Manual speeds only. Expect it in a new SOP revision soon.



And I havenít even figured out how to say ďVappĒ after ďFlaps 5Ē yet.



Yeah I keep screwing that one up too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bscott58d
08-21-2018, 03:18 PM
TSA board says ru,or of an announcement tomorrow (22nd) anyone here know the merits of this?

C37AFE
08-21-2018, 03:27 PM
TSA board says ru,or of an announcement tomorrow (22nd) anyone here know the merits of this?


Yeah and 99.9% wonít happen tomorrow so next rumor will be next company call at TSA or something. This has been going on all year. The last real big hoohah was the big announcement that ended up being flight school.... Iíll believe it about 3 days after I win mega millions and powerball in same week.

bscott58d
08-21-2018, 03:55 PM
Yeah and 99.9% wonít happen tomorrow so next rumor will be next company call at TSA or something. This has been going on all year. The last real big hoohah was the big announcement that ended up being flight school.... Iíll believe it about 3 days after I win mega millions and powerball in same week.

Thatís what I figured but does t hurt to ask I guess. 3, 7, 43, 69, 2, 78 are your winning numbers

TJBrass
08-22-2018, 09:57 AM
I must be missing something. What are you guys talking about?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think they mean FMS generated numbers.

N914FJ
08-22-2018, 11:15 AM
Denial on the CPZ Company call

4myfamily
08-22-2018, 03:34 PM
Denial on the CPZ Company call

What does that mean? Please elaborate...

JayD
08-22-2018, 03:52 PM
What does that mean? Please elaborate...

CPZ (Compass) had a company call and they denied the merger.

I donít work for either company but thatís what heís saying. Not much more to eleborate on.

buddies8
08-23-2018, 07:02 AM
CPZ has no say in what mother TSA Holding wants to do, CPZ just asks how high you want me to jump.

fortyeight
08-23-2018, 03:13 PM
ďAnnouncement coming August 22nd I heard it at my last PCĒ.....pilots are great

bigtime209
08-23-2018, 05:16 PM
Allegedly itís an Embraer-issued mandate so Iíll be curious to see if the other 170 series operators do the same.

Envoy has been operating the E175 for 2.5 years. We have not been authorized to use FMS speeds beyond the FAF through the Go Around phase. Initially, the reason cited was that there was a required software upgrade that the brand new planes coming off the factory floor would need. That would cost money and AA had no intention of paying the fee. Manual speeds since the get go for us.

greendotplus10
08-23-2018, 05:32 PM
Envoy has been operating the E175 for 2.5 years. We have not been authorized to use FMS speeds beyond the FAF through the Go Around phase. Initially, the reason cited was that there was a required software upgrade that the brand new planes coming off the factory floor would need. That would cost money and AA had no intention of paying the fee. Manual speeds since the get go for us.

That's basically what our FSI instructor told us earlier this year; an issue with the Honeywell software "preventing" the use of FMS speeds during approach. From the perspective of new hires he explained it vaguely, but essentially we learned manual speeds below about 10,000, then flip back to FMS speeds once fully configured (to aid in case of go around). But a lot of captains are using FMS speeds on approach in one way or another.

Captain Slow
08-23-2018, 06:42 PM
Envoy has been operating the E175 for 2.5 years. We have not been authorized to use FMS speeds beyond the FAF through the Go Around phase. Initially, the reason cited was that there was a required software upgrade that the brand new planes coming off the factory floor would need. That would cost money and AA had no intention of paying the fee. Manual speeds since the get go for us.

Interesting... good to know!

Tpinks
08-24-2018, 09:46 AM
I think they mean FMS generated numbers.

We don't use FMS (onboard) generated speeds. Our speeds come from a 3rd party vendor via acars or we use the book for when acars is down.

We do/are allowed to use FMS (pink) speed targets on all phases of flight per our SOPs, but this will be changing as Embraer is not budging on our use of FMS speeds past the FAF or in the GA. Even though the data from our 10+ years of operating the plane shows evidence contrary to theirs.

knewyork
08-25-2018, 08:56 AM
None of this would be an issue if pilots acted like pilots and, you know, checked their speed on occasion.

dera
08-25-2018, 08:58 AM
None of this would be an issue if pilots acted like pilots and, you know, checked their speed on occasion.

That would interrupt my movie.

FlyingKat
08-25-2018, 11:20 AM
Back to the original purpose of the thread. Anybody hearing about what happened in ORD with BB last week or if they are getting close to any kind of announcement? The article from the web said the end of the month and its coming up fast....Bueller? Bueller?

Excargodog
08-25-2018, 12:17 PM
Back to the original purpose of the thread. Anybody hearing about what happened in ORD with BB last week or if they are getting close to any kind of announcement? The article from the web said the end of the month and its coming up fast....Bueller? Bueller?

TSH in general and CPZ in particular has been RUMORED to be for sale and/or about to be bought for several years including that Delta (who originally sold CPZ) wanted to buy it back, but that TSH was holding out for a sale of all three airlines together. How much (if any) of this has been true is difficult to say, but it hasn't happened yet.

Given the potential logistical and training problems of dealing with four different pilot groups with two different unions flying three different types of aircraft, I'd have to say that such a purchase certainly wouldn't be for the faint of heart. Fortunately, whoever did make such a purchase could punt the Seniority List Integration to the unions involved, but that could get interesting too, especially since once completed the integrated seniority list would need to be represented by a single union.

Can it happen?
Sure?

Will it happen.
Who knows?

The only certainty is that the process - if it does happen - will be the mother of all goat ropes.

FlyingKat
08-25-2018, 02:28 PM
TSH in general and CPZ in particular has been RUMORED to be for sale and/or about to be bought for several years including that Delta (who originally sold CPZ) wanted to buy it back, but that TSH was holding out for a sale of all three airlines together. How much (if any) of this has been true is difficult to say, but it hasn't happened yet.

Given the potential logistical and training problems of dealing with four different pilot groups with two different unions flying three different types of aircraft, I'd have to say that such a purchase certainly wouldn't be for the faint of heart. Fortunately, whoever did make such a purchase could punt the Seniority List Integration to the unions involved, but that could get interesting too, especially since once completed the integrated seniority list would need to be represented by a single union.

Can it happen?
Sure?

Will it happen.
Who knows?

The only certainty is that the process - if it does happen - will be the mother of all goat ropes.

Unfortunately those of us at Trans States Holdings won't find out until the moving trucks show up in St Louis.....

Excargodog
08-25-2018, 03:20 PM
Unfortunately those of us at Trans States Holdings won't find out until the moving trucks show up in St Louis.....

You might be right - but I doubt it.

Republic has 2000 pilots, represented by the Teamsters.
TSA has 600 pilots, represented by ALPA
Gojet has 600 pilots, represented by the Teamsters
Compass has 663 pilots, represented by ALPA.

If anyone (Skywest, Horizon, or Mesa to name a few) wish to make even a token objection to the antitrust people, this will have to go through the DOJ. Then of course there are the contractual obligations that do not go away which still must be fulfilled, and the fact that some of that is 50 seat scope limited means that the fifty seaters will have to be maintained until those contracts expire since the only other thing they could do otherwise is to get the legacy pilots to relax scope - which they will fight tooth and nail.

And of course, All four airlines have different pay scales, bonuses, incentive programs, etc. all of those contracts must be assumed and honored by any would-be buyer. Now a sufficiently generous contract from Republic might take care of that, but then that gets to the Seniority List Integration. That's going to be ugly.

After McCaskill-Bond, nobody is going to get stapled onto anybody. It is equally unlikely that the ALPA contingent is going to take DOH - particularly with Compass's history of fast turnover. Currently they are upgrading 20/mo out of a FO cadre of a little over 300. They are going to push for relative seniority and seat and base fences and drag the process out as long as possible because if they hold it up for 18 months everybody currently on their books will already be upgrading. And truthfully, the way the NMB has been looking at these issues lately I'd expect about 85% Relative Seniority, 15% DOH, with fences to stop displacement from bases or equipment. And if this was an all-ALPA deal, they'd need to submit this to binding arbitration, but it isn't so that contract provision doesn't apply and they CAN drag this out.

Then there is the issue of WHO winds up representing the combined pilot group. You might think - with 2600 currently represented by Teamsters and 1260 by ALPA, that it would be a foregone conclusion. Not necessarily so. At a minimum there would have to be a vote.

I don't think you really need to worry about keeping your bags packed for when the moving trucks show up in St Louis, I think you'll have PLENTY of lead time....

FlyingKat
08-25-2018, 06:37 PM
You might be right - but I doubt it.

Republic has 2000 pilots, represented by the Teamsters.
TSA has 600 pilots, represented by ALPA
Gojet has 600 pilots, represented by the Teamsters
Compass has 663 pilots, represented by ALPA.

If anyone (Skywest, Horizon, or Mesa to name a few) wish to make even a token objection to the antitrust people, this will have to go through the DOJ. Then of course there are the contractual obligations that do not go away which still must be fulfilled, and the fact that some of that is 50 seat scope limited means that the fifty seaters will have to be maintained until those contracts expire since the only other thing they could do otherwise is to get the legacy pilots to relax scope - which they will fight tooth and nail.

And of course, All four airlines have different pay scales, bonuses, incentive programs, etc. all of those contracts must be assumed and honored by any would-be buyer. Now a sufficiently generous contract from Republic might take care of that, but then that gets to the Seniority List Integration. That's going to be ugly.

After McCaskill-Bond, nobody is going to get stapled onto anybody. It is equally unlikely that the ALPA contingent is going to take DOH - particularly with Compass's history of fast turnover. Currently they are upgrading 20/mo out of a FO cadre of a little over 300. They are going to push for relative seniority and seat and base fences and drag the process out as long as possible because if they hold it up for 18 months everybody currently on their books will already be upgrading. And truthfully, the way the NMB has been looking at these issues lately I'd expect about 85% Relative Seniority, 15% DOH, with fences to stop displacement from bases or equipment. And if this was an all-ALPA deal, they'd need to submit this to binding arbitration, but it isn't so that contract provision doesn't apply and they CAN drag this out.

Then there is the issue of WHO winds up representing the combined pilot group. You might think - with 2600 currently represented by Teamsters and 1260 by ALPA, that it would be a foregone conclusion. Not necessarily so. At a minimum there would have to be a vote.

I don't think you really need to worry about keeping your bags packed for when the moving trucks show up in St Louis, I think you'll have PLENTY of lead time....

DOJ won't give a squat about this because thanks to fee for departure, none of these airlines hold themselves out to the public for ticket sales anymore. All they do is provide crews and planes. DOT cares about market share when it comes to seats sold and that is controlled by Delta, American, and United and none of that will change with this transaction. You will be amazed how fast this will go down. Look for straight DOH integration with fences at Compass and Trans States.

keepinitreal
08-25-2018, 06:42 PM
Who has the better contract? Republic by far. So why should there be anything close to a close to an equal DOH integration when the Republic pilot group fought for a better contract? When/if this is integrated, TSA holdings pilot groups are moving into a better contract situation and therefore should not get a favorable seniority list integration.

4V14T0R
08-25-2018, 07:02 PM
Who has the better contract? Republic by far. So why should there be anything close to a close to an equal DOH integration when the Republic pilot group fought for a better contract? When/if this is integrated, TSA holdings pilot groups are moving into a better contract situation and therefore should not get a favorable seniority list integration.



Yeah, I donít think it works that way.


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Avroman
08-25-2018, 07:08 PM
Who has the better contract? Republic by far. So why should there be anything close to a close to an equal DOH integration when the Republic pilot group fought for a better contract? When/if this is integrated, TSA holdings pilot groups are moving into a better contract situation and therefore should not get a favorable seniority list integration.

You might want to look back at the Pinnacolaba mess and then rethink that question.... I'll give you one guess who got the biggest shafting and who got the biggest windfall of the 3 in that mess.:mad:

FlyingKat
08-25-2018, 07:20 PM
Who has the better contract? Republic by far. So why should there be anything close to a close to an equal DOH integration when the Republic pilot group fought for a better contract? When/if this is integrated, TSA holdings pilot groups are moving into a better contract situation and therefore should not get a favorable seniority list integration.

Actually TSA pilots have fought hard for years and have a pretty good contract that is comparable to RP in many ways except for the payrates. Compass has a good contract too, and Gojet, well at least they have something in writing....

Excargodog
08-25-2018, 07:36 PM
You will be amazed how fast this will go down. Look for straight DOH integration with fences at Compass and Trans States.

If it does I certainly will be. And the Compass guys will fight straight DOH tooth and nail. A missing senior captain would be behind half the Republic FOs. That ain't what they went to Compass to do, spend ten years at a regional. Unless the fences were such that there was no crossover whatever for any of the existing pilots until they move on - and that would be probably four years max...

FlyingKat
08-25-2018, 08:01 PM
You might want to look back at the Pinnacolaba mess and then rethink that question.... I'll give you one guess who got the biggest shafting and who got the biggest windfall of the 3 in that mess.:mad:

A big part of that was Uncle Phil Trenary and his crooked band of incompetents. That place was the biggest cluster * I've ever seen. Some of the things they did in that merger were just plain stupid. Fortunately Bedford is smarter than Trenary was.

Excargodog
08-25-2018, 08:02 PM
You might want to look back at the Pinnacolaba mess and then rethink that question.... I'll give you one guess who got the biggest shafting and who got the biggest windfall of the 3 in that mess.:mad:


Yeah, but that also involved a bankruptcy for the purpose of putting pressure on ALPA and the pilots groups. Having just gotten done with one more or less bogus bankruptcy for the purpose of shedding their 50 seat contracts I'd pay good money to be a fly on the wall in the court if Republics lawyers told a bankruptcy court they wanted to do another bankruptcy this soon because they bought some more fifty seaters...

:D:D

Excargodog
08-25-2018, 08:18 PM
Who has the better contract? Republic by far. So why should there be anything close to a close to an equal DOH integration when the Republic pilot group fought for a better contract? When/if this is integrated, TSA holdings pilot groups are moving into a better contract situation and therefore should not get a favorable seniority list integration.


The way that the NMB looks at it is that the pilots groups all signed up with their original airlines with different expectations. The Compass pilots accepted a lower contract for West Coast basing and quick upgrades, while the Republic people accepted more money for slower career progression and their basing. The thing that inherently makes the most sense (to them anyway) is relative seniority. If you were in the top 1% in your pilot group you stay in the top 1% of the combined pilot group. Top 5% stays in the top 5% and so forth. You interleave the seniority groups. Now generally they WILL allow some credit for date of hire but then put fences on bases and equipment to preclude a lot of relocations.

Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if it wound up 85% Relative Seniority and 15% DOH, with 4-5 year base and equipment fences. Of course that would be if it ever WENT to the NMB. Since this isn't a straight ALPA to ALPA merge, there is nothing to compel any of the ALPA groups to go to arbitration.

Heck, the Alaska and VX groups don't yet have a SLI and it's been what? Two and a half years? And they HAD binding arbitration. Be interesting to see how that comes out because tempers between the groups have been running high, especially after Alaska shut down VXs JFK base and sold the gates.

Anyone who says this would be quick and/or easy is whistling past the graveyard.

FlyingKat
08-25-2018, 08:45 PM
Yeah, but that also involved a bankruptcy for the purpose of putting pressure on ALPA and the pilots groups. Having just gotten done with one more or less bogus bankruptcy for the purpose of shedding their 50 seat contracts I'd pay good money to be a fly on the wall in the court if Republics lawyers told a bankruptcy court they wanted to do another bankruptcy this soon because they bought some more fifty seaters...

:D:D

The major reason for the bankruptcy was the $20 million in training reimbursements Delta reneged on because the merged training costs included United flying, the * move that cost a * ton of money to One Commerce Square so Uncle Phil could have a 14th floor office overlooking the Mississippi River, and the crazy training costs created when you had guys jumping certificates multiple times and having to go through the entire newhire training process each time. The cramdown on ALPA came later once Delta realized they had a gold mine in the works and could take over Pinnacle for pennies on the dollar by giving them Dip financing and forcing a concessionary contract on the pilots in bankruptcy.

Bedford knows how to control training costs and not * money away so any RP merger won't be this big of a cluster.

Excargodog
08-26-2018, 07:17 AM
Bedford knows how to control training costs and not p*ss money away so any RP merger won't be this big of a cluster.

Hopefully any competent businessman could find economies of scale eventually. The initial transition costs are always more than just changing out the letterhead though. And the existing contracts are still the contracts and it is one area where labor can take advantage of the usual advantage that management has by just hanging on to the status quo. But it's the SLI that is still likely to prove most problematic.

Exactly how long did it take the US Airways-American West SLI to actually take place after their operations were combined in 2005?

It only happened as part of the US Airways - AA merger in 2013 and even then the three way pilot group SLI wasn't decided by the arbitrator until 2016 and there were still court cases going on about it last year.

The final list was made with a computer algorithm that took into account length of service, relative seniority (class and status), currently available flying, current pay, and the expected benefits of impending retirements. The legacy AA people were - I believe - the last to sue, since they lost most in relative seniority and pay.

FlyingKat
08-26-2018, 08:04 AM
Hopefully any competent businessman could find economies of scale eventually. The initial transition costs are always more than just changing out the letterhead though. And the existing contracts are still the contracts and it is one area where labor can take advantage of the usual advantage that management has by just hanging on to the status quo. But it's the SLI that is still likely to prove most problematic.

Exactly how long did it take the US Airways-American West SLI to actually take place after their operations were combined in 2005?

It only happened as part of the US Airways - AA merger in 2013 and even then the three way pilot group SLI wasn't decided by the arbitrator until 2016 and there were still court cases going on about it last year.

The final list was made with a computer algorithm that took into account length of service, relative seniority (class and status), currently available flying, current pay, and the expected benefits of impending retirements. The legacy AA people were - I believe - the last to sue, since they lost most in relative seniority and pay.

Once again comparing apples to oranges. You don't have a bunch of furloughed guys at another carrier getting stapled to create havoc. With the exception of Gojet, all three carriers have similar upgrade times and expectations so a DOH integration, with fences, should get through pretty easy.

4V14T0R
08-26-2018, 08:28 AM
Once again comparing apples to oranges. You don't have a bunch of furloughed guys at another carrier getting stapled to create havoc. With the exception of Gojet, all three carriers have similar upgrade times and expectations so a DOH integration, with fences, should get through pretty easy.



Itís always comparing apples to oranges, no merger is going to happen exactly the same way.


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Excargodog
08-26-2018, 11:07 AM
Once again comparing apples to oranges. You don't have a bunch of furloughed guys at another carrier getting stapled to create havoc. With the exception of Gojet, all three carriers have similar upgrade times and expectations so a DOH integration, with fences, should get through pretty easy.

Bull. The Alaska VX buy was just two groups -both ALPA which had a MUST ACCEPT BINDING NEGOTIATION clause in their contracts - flying comparable equipment, and they STILL don't have an SLI.

And they were flying roughly comparable equipment without such issues as should a crew flying a 50 pax aircraft make as much as one flying a 70 pax aircraft and should a 76 pax crew get a premium over a 70 pax crew.

No pilot group is required to accept binding arbitration in a merger between Teamsters and ALPA and everyone can insist that their existing contract be honored for the full duration left in it. One of those has five years to run and I think all of them have at least 18 months. Those are binding contracts (absent another bankruptcy by Republic) and those people are going to have to be seduced, not merely bludgeoned into submission. Whether Republic is willing to put enough money in for a successful seduction is an issue. My understanding is the existing Republic contract with their pilots has a provision requiring that Republic not operate other aircraft on a separate certificate which will likely complicate the transition even more.

And have you actually reviewed any of the writings by the NMB arbitrators on how they arbitrate these disputes? DOH has sort of been out the window for a decade. They pride themselves on looking at the motivations and aspirations that lead each of the pilot groups to make their initial commitment to their respective airlines in deciding how much to consider relative seniority - and frankly, it counts a bunch.

If this were to be done, it is far more complex than Alaska VX, more complex than the AA three way. That doesn't mean it can't happen, not if Republic is willing to make it lucrative enough for EACH of the pilot groups, but it won't be quick even then. Way too many moving parts.

Betcha a bottle of Jeremiah Weed no SLI will be done within three years of the formal announcement of the intent to buy TSH and that the only ones in the eventual SLI who will be straight DOH will be people that came on property AFTER the formal announcement was made.

Excargodog
08-26-2018, 11:13 AM
It’s always comparing apples to oranges, no merger is going to happen exactly the same way.


This^^^^

And this one would be a four way which wil be a royal goat rope if it does happen. And wishing it were otherwise won't change that.

FlyingKat
09-14-2018, 06:26 PM
Bull. The Alaska VX buy was just two groups -both ALPA which had a MUST ACCEPT BINDING NEGOTIATION clause in their contracts - flying comparable equipment, and they STILL don't have an SLI.

And they were flying roughly comparable equipment without such issues as should a crew flying a 50 pax aircraft make as much as one flying a 70 pax aircraft and should a 76 pax crew get a premium over a 70 pax crew.

No pilot group is required to accept binding arbitration in a merger between Teamsters and ALPA and everyone can insist that their existing contract be honored for the full duration left in it. One of those has five years to run and I think all of them have at least 18 months. Those are binding contracts (absent another bankruptcy by Republic) and those people are going to have to be seduced, not merely bludgeoned into submission. Whether Republic is willing to put enough money in for a successful seduction is an issue. My understanding is the existing Republic contract with their pilots has a provision requiring that Republic not operate other aircraft on a separate certificate which will likely complicate the transition even more.

And have you actually reviewed any of the writings by the NMB arbitrators on how they arbitrate these disputes? DOH has sort of been out the window for a decade. They pride themselves on looking at the motivations and aspirations that lead each of the pilot groups to make their initial commitment to their respective airlines in deciding how much to consider relative seniority - and frankly, it counts a bunch.

If this were to be done, it is far more complex than Alaska VX, more complex than the AA three way. That doesn't mean it can't happen, not if Republic is willing to make it lucrative enough for EACH of the pilot groups, but it won't be quick even then. Way too many moving parts.

Betcha a bottle of Jeremiah Weed no SLI will be done within three years of the formal announcement of the intent to buy TSH and that the only ones in the eventual SLI who will be straight DOH will be people that came on property AFTER the formal announcement was made.

Bet taken. It won't take that long. Regional mergers are very different than mainline mergers because nobody expects to be here for long, and the arbitrators know it. When the Reverend starts throwing around Republic pay rates to get this done it will happen. Fast. Republics contracts allow multiple certificates, but only one seniority list. I.E. you can't have an alter ego operation like Gojet.

But we'll see what happens. Lots of chatter about an announcement by the end of August. Nothing has happened and now its crickets.....maybe Bedford looked at the TSH books and bounced....

Viking6
09-14-2018, 07:59 PM
Bet taken. It won't take that long. Regional mergers are very different than mainline mergers because nobody expects to be here for long, and the arbitrators know it. When the Reverend starts throwing around Republic pay rates to get this done it will happen. Fast. Republics contracts allow multiple certificates, but only one seniority list. I.E. you can't have an alter ego operation like Gojet.

But we'll see what happens. Lots of chatter about an announcement by the end of August. Nothing has happened and now its crickets.....maybe Bedford looked at the TSH books and bounced....

He wants Compass, but Hulas wants everything to go. Bedford has stated numerous times that he wants to grow the Ejets. Yes we can have multiple certificates, but that is not an efficient way to do business. My money would be on Compass acquisition, but who knows. We easily exceeded our hiring goal this year, so I suspect the announcement will be additional Ejets for new CPA.

Excargodog
09-14-2018, 09:07 PM
Bet taken. It won't take that long. Regional mergers are very different than mainline mergers because nobody expects to be here for long, and the arbitrators know it. When the Reverend starts throwing around Republic pay rates to get this done it will happen. Fast. Republics contracts allow multiple certificates, but only one seniority list. I.E. you can't have an alter ego operation like Gojet.

But we'll see what happens. Lots of chatter about an announcement by the end of August. Nothing has happened and now its crickets.....maybe Bedford looked at the TSH books and bounced....


So you are taking the bet but you think the alleged deal has been called off? That doesn't make sense.

And regional mergers are very different from mainline mergers? Could you perhaps give me a couple of examples where this is the case?

And it wouldn't be Republic's call on the SLI, that would involve the unions of all four of the pilot groups.

And yes, sufficient money from the (recently bankrupt) Republic might solve that problem, but it would take more than their current rates. And then we get into the different pay scales for different equipment issue....

FlyingKat
09-14-2018, 09:33 PM
He wants Compass, but Hulas wants everything to go. Bedford has stated numerous times that he wants to grow the Ejets. Yes we can have multiple certificates, but that is not an efficient way to do business. My money would be on Compass acquisition, but who knows. We easily exceeded our hiring goal this year, so I suspect the announcement will be additional Ejets for new CPA.

He wanted Compass two years ago. The problem is Compass isn't for sale without the whole deal and the negotiations moved beyond Compass a long time ago. You're not going to get additional Ejets because everybody is maxed out on scope right now, including United. Once UAL gets a new contract with its pilots, the XRs will be replaced by larger airplanes which is why Bedford is interested in them, and UAL is willing to pay to keep the XRs flying. If this deal ever happens, it will likely unfold this way:

1. Compass to Republic
2. Republic will take over all UAL XR flying (84 airplanes) with XRs to be replaced by 175s when UAL scope allows it.
3. 25 Gojet UAL 700s replaced by 175s at Republic (UAL has already announced 25 700s are going away to be replaced by 175s but has not announced who is losing and gaining aircraft).

FlyingKat
09-14-2018, 09:58 PM
So you are taking the bet but you think the alleged deal has been called off? That doesn't make sense.

And regional mergers are very different from mainline mergers? Could you perhaps give me a couple of examples where this is the case?

And it wouldn't be Republic's call on the SLI, that would involve the unions of all four of the pilot groups.

And yes, sufficient money from the (recently bankrupt) Republic might solve that problem, but it would take more than their current rates. And then we get into the different pay scales for different equipment issue....

The Piedmont/Allegheny merger, the Republic acquisition of Shuttle America and Lynx, the Pinnacolaba merger, and others.

An SLI based on DOH with fences will pass all 3 pilot groups easily. All you have to get is 50% plus one. Particularly when pay increases in line with current Republic rates are involved.

I am taking the bet, but I am saying that, just like in February when this all fell apart when they thought there was a deal, Republic could be backing off again after doing their due diligence on the deal. MOU would allow them access to TSH to review the entire operation and its finances. The signed MOU means a deal is very likely to happen, but is not a guarantee. So until this is announced it will never be a done deal, and everybody seemed to think an announcement would happen by the end of August.

JayD
09-15-2018, 04:21 AM
The Piedmont/Allegheny merger, the Republic acquisition of Shuttle America and Lynx, the Pinnacolaba merger, and others.

An SLI based on DOH with fences will pass all 3 pilot groups easily. All you have to get is 50% plus one. Particularly when pay increases in line with current Republic rates are involved.

I am taking the bet, but I am saying that, just like in February when this all fell apart when they thought there was a deal, Republic could be backing off again after doing their due diligence on the deal. MOU would allow them access to TSH to review the entire operation and its finances. The signed MOU means a deal is very likely to happen, but is not a guarantee. So until this is announced it will never be a done deal, and everybody seemed to think an announcement would happen by the end of August.

A signed MOU is not indicative that a ďdeal is very likely.Ē I work on business development deals like this at my company and we sign MOUs all the time but rarely actually complete a deal. The MOU just gives us access to do some preliminary due diligence. If we like what we see we can make an offer but even then itís far from a closed deal.

As an example, we recently signed an MOU, liked what we saw during the initial due diligence, and made a firm written offer. The seller verbally agreed to the sale but never signed the offer and sent it back. That was the detailed legal contract needed to begin the actual acquisition. They then finalized the previous yearís financials and presented those to us. They were a lot worse than originally projected so we withdrew our original offer. Our offer was not contingent on the final financials but because they didnít sign the offer before presenting them the deal died.

A deal is not very likely until everything is signed and a public announcement is made. Until then itís all just hypothetical BS and even then it may not happen.

ChopNDrop
09-15-2018, 05:07 AM
He wanted Compass two years ago. The problem is Compass isn't for sale without the whole deal and the negotiations moved beyond Compass a long time ago. You're not going to get additional Ejets because everybody is maxed out on scope right now, including United. Once UAL gets a new contract with its pilots, the XRs will be replaced by larger airplanes which is why Bedford is interested in them, and UAL is willing to pay to keep the XRs flying. If this deal ever happens, it will likely unfold this way:

1. Compass to Republic
2. Republic will take over all UAL XR flying (84 airplanes) with XRs to be replaced by 175s when UAL scope allows it.
3. 25 Gojet UAL 700s replaced by 175s at Republic (UAL has already announced 25 700s are going away to be replaced by 175s but has not announced who is losing and gaining aircraft).

In reference to your 3rd point.. XJet is trying to solidify a deal with their pilots to get those 175s. Apparently XJet has already been promised those 25x175s by United, but with a laundry list of boxes that have to be checked first. You can reference their forum regarding their contract if you want more info.

Viking6
09-15-2018, 07:18 AM
He wanted Compass two years ago. The problem is Compass isn't for sale without the whole deal and the negotiations moved beyond Compass a long time ago. You're not going to get additional Ejets because everybody is maxed out on scope right now, including United. Once UAL gets a new contract with its pilots, the XRs will be replaced by larger airplanes which is why Bedford is interested in them, and UAL is willing to pay to keep the XRs flying. If this deal ever happens, it will likely unfold this way:

1. Compass to Republic
2. Republic will take over all UAL XR flying (84 airplanes) with XRs to be replaced by 175s when UAL scope allows it.
3. 25 Gojet UAL 700s replaced by 175s at Republic (UAL has already announced 25 700s are going away to be replaced by 175s but has not announced who is losing and gaining aircraft).

Everybody is maxed out on scope? Thatís not a true statement at all, and who said it would be one of the legacies. Also those 175s have already been promised Expressjet. Republic will be over staffed on FOs once theyíre all trained. This is because they expect growth, and not from acquisition.

Bellinbiker
09-15-2018, 10:58 AM
Why would Republic want to merge 4 certificates again. If the bought TSH, they could just liquidate and bring everyone on as new hires. By the end of the year, RAH we be fat 300 fos.

FlyingKat
09-15-2018, 05:41 PM
A signed MOU is not indicative that a ďdeal is very likely.Ē I work on business development deals like this at my company and we sign MOUs all the time but rarely actually complete a deal. The MOU just gives us access to do some preliminary due diligence. If we like what we see we can make an offer but even then itís far from a closed deal.

As an example, we recently signed an MOU, liked what we saw during the initial due diligence, and made a firm written offer. The seller verbally agreed to the sale but never signed the offer and sent it back. That was the detailed legal contract needed to begin the actual acquisition. They then finalized the previous yearís financials and presented those to us. They were a lot worse than originally projected so we withdrew our original offer. Our offer was not contingent on the final financials but because they didnít sign the offer before presenting them the deal died. .

Well that is the way your company handled MOUs. An MOU is a contract like any other, and the how likely it is depends on the language in the MOU. The one person who has likely seen the MOU, the reporter that published the story last month, said a deal was likely given the MOU.

A deal is not very likely until everything is signed and a public announcement is made. Until then itís all just hypothetical BS and even then it may not happen.

I believe I said this wasn't done until it was announced. There have been Republic people in STL in August doing their due diligence. We'll see if this deal happens, it was close in February.

FlyingKat
09-15-2018, 05:56 PM
Why would Republic want to merge 4 certificates again. If the bought TSH, they could just liquidate and bring everyone on as new hires. By the end of the year, RAH we be fat 300 fos.

Consolidation is coming to the regional industry. Either you are a player or you are not. Mesa just raised 116 million to spend on buying another airline.

TheWeatherman
09-15-2018, 06:01 PM
Consolidation is coming to the regional industry. Either you are a player or you are not. Mesa just raised 116 million to spend on buying another airline.


:eek: God help us all

FlyingKat
09-15-2018, 06:07 PM
:eek: God help us all

Yep...that's why if you are a TSH employee you better hope this Republic deal happens because JO is sniffing at the back door.

FlyingKat
09-15-2018, 06:15 PM
Everybody is maxed out on scope? That’s not a true statement at all, and who said it would be one of the legacies. Also those 175s have already been promised Expressjet. Republic will be over staffed on FOs once they’re all trained. This is because they expect growth, and not from acquisition.

OK so who has room for more large RJs then? Not United, Delta, or American. And the regional Fee for Departure model does not work for LCCs. Its been tried and was a bust every time. CASMs are too high.

You gonna try a branded operation? Majors will crush you there too. Just ask Independence Air and Expressjet....

FlyingKat
09-15-2018, 07:00 PM
In reference to your 3rd point.. XJet is trying to solidify a deal with their pilots to get those 175s. Apparently XJet has already been promised those 25x175s by United, but with a laundry list of boxes that have to be checked first. You can reference their forum regarding their contract if you want more info.

Well the first thing I would say is the list of things that have been promised to the Expressjet pilot group since Skywest bought them is sadly long and distinguished. With that history I wouldn't believe anything until the planes are on the property. However the idea that Blowjet would lose 25 700s and it would benefit a good pilot group like Expressjet would be a good thing and I hope it happens for you guys.

However the most interesting thing in your new TA is the requirement for the sale of the company by next January. No sale could happen that fast if it isn't in the works already. United can't buy you because the Flight Attendant contract won't allow it. What they can do is back somebody else buying you like, Republic. There have been rumors for a while that other airlines might be involved in this deal besides TSH and Republic. All of the XRs, not just the ones at TSA were supposed to be part of this deal. So either the rest of the XRs would be transferred to TSA, or Republic will be buying other airlines flying XRs like Expressjet.

The next few months should be very interesting, indeed.

Arliss
09-15-2018, 07:09 PM
Well the first thing I would say is the list of things that have been promised to the Expressjet pilot group since Skywest bought them is sadly long and distinguished. With that history I wouldn't believe anything until the planes are on the property. However the idea that Blowjet would lose 25 700s and it would benefit a good pilot group like Expressjet would be a good thing and I hope it happens for you guys.

However the most interesting thing in your new TA is the requirement for the sale of the company by next January. No sale could happen that fast if it isn't in the works already. United can't buy you because the Flight Attendant contract won't allow it. What they can do is back somebody else buying you like, Republic. There have been rumors for a while that other airlines might be involved in this deal besides TSH and Republic. All of the XRs, not just the ones at TSA were supposed to be part of this deal. So either the rest of the XRs would be transferred to TSA, or Republic will be buying other airlines flying XRs like Expressjet.

The next few months should be very interesting, indeed.

Interesting idea, though in all of the rumors and talks on our end (and I know people deep in the union), Republic's name has never once come up. Not impossible, but I don't think Rjet would be Xjet's new majority owner. Wouldn't be the worst thing though, I'll take Rjet over Mesa or TSH.

ChopNDrop
09-16-2018, 04:18 AM
well the first thing i would say is the list of things that have been promised to the expressjet pilot group since skywest bought them is sadly long and distinguished. With that history i wouldn't believe anything until the planes are on the property. However the idea that blowjet would lose 25 700s and it would benefit a good pilot group like expressjet would be a good thing and i hope it happens for you guys.

However the most interesting thing in your new ta is the requirement for the sale of the company by next january. No sale could happen that fast if it isn't in the works already. United can't buy you because the flight attendant contract won't allow it. What they can do is back somebody else buying you like, republic. There have been rumors for a while that other airlines might be involved in this deal besides tsh and republic. All of the xrs, not just the ones at tsa were supposed to be part of this deal. So either the rest of the xrs would be transferred to tsa, or republic will be buying other airlines flying xrs like expressjet.

The next few months should be very interesting, indeed.

plot twist!

jshank83
09-20-2018, 06:39 PM
Looks like it might be falling thru. United apparently doesn't support the deal.

https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/the-plan-to-merge-republic-and-trans-states-is-near-death/

Rahlifer
09-20-2018, 06:50 PM
Looks like it might be falling thru. United apparently doesn't support the deal.

https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/the-plan-to-merge-republic-and-trans-states-is-near-death/

Not exactly a reliable news source. It looks like some blog put together by an ex cnn reporter. Nice use of anonymous sources to post any sort of made up nonsense. Iím too skeptical. If someone tells me the sky is blue, they damn well better back up their statement with three or more credible sources.

Random Task
09-20-2018, 07:01 PM
Not exactly a reliable news source. It looks like some blog put together by an ex cnn reporter. Nice use of anonymous sources to post any sort of made up nonsense. Iím too skeptical. If someone tells me the sky is blue, they damn well better back up their statement with three or more credible sources.

Same guy that originally posted the rumor so....

Lostboys97
09-20-2018, 07:05 PM
It didnít happen by the end of the 2nd quarter, its a wash. Glad the teamsters pushed for that LOA in January.

FlyingKat
09-20-2018, 07:45 PM
Looks like it might be falling thru. United apparently doesn't support the deal.

https://theaircurrent.com/airlines/the-plan-to-merge-republic-and-trans-states-is-near-death/

Rumor was that BB was in Chicago meeting with UAL at the end of August and an announcement was expected after. Guess he met with UAL and it didn't go well which is why there was no announcement. If UAL kills the deal it will be interesting to see what JO does with his IPO cash.

fortyeight
09-20-2018, 09:08 PM
It didnít happen by the end of the 2nd quarter, its a wash. Glad the teamsters pushed for that LOA in January.

The company played the union and sold us a heaping pile of dog crap.

TJBrass
09-21-2018, 04:59 AM
Guess BB won't need those 100 new airplanes now.

JayD
09-21-2018, 08:53 AM
Well that is the way your company handled MOUs. An MOU is a contract like any other, and the how likely it is depends on the language in the MOU. The one person who has likely seen the MOU, the reporter that published the story last month, said a deal was likely given the MOU.

Seems other companies handle MOU/LOIs the same way since most of the time, especially in a situation like this, they are non-binding agreements... NOT contracts. You're correct it's in the language of the MOU but most are not legally binding contracts.

I'm only speaking from experience here as it is something I do and have been involved in with my current company. Do you or have you worked in IB, PE or a BD role at a company that works deals like this?

That reporter is a little bit biased too since a highly likely deal makes for a much better story.

ChopNDrop
09-22-2018, 05:26 AM
The company played the union and sold us a heaping pile of dog crap.

care to elaborate?

No Lies
09-22-2018, 05:41 AM
From what I hear in STL, the merger is still on. It was never with Republic though.

Just go to the Expressjet forum and you will see who has a sell written in their TA that they are voting on right now. Expressjet is being sold off from skywest and and the buyer is partly UA. The majority will be TSA. They are going to use the pilots from one company to supply the pilots for the replacement 175's that UA bought.

threeighteen
09-22-2018, 06:50 AM
From what I hear in STL, the merger is still on. It was never with Republic though.

Just go to the Expressjet forum and you will see who has a sell written in their TA that they are voting on right now. Expressjet is being sold off from skywest and and the buyer is partly UA. The majority will be TSA. They are going to use the pilots from one company to supply the pilots for the replacement 175's that UA bought.

Joke is on you, MESA is going to buy all 4 (Compass, BlowJet, TSA, Expressjet) with the money they just raised and you'll be stuck working for JO... which, coming from working for HK, might not be a noticeable difference.

FlyingKat
09-22-2018, 08:08 AM
Joke is on you, MESA is going to buy all 4 (Compass, BlowJet, TSA, Expressjet) with the money they just raised and you'll be stuck working for JO... which, coming from working for HK, might not be a noticeable difference.

Always a possibility, but what is most likely is something happened in UALs labor negotiations to allow wholly owned subsidaries which is Kirby's preferred option. We'll find out over the next few months.

Arliss
09-22-2018, 01:55 PM
This. If we (Xjet) are getting bought by Hulas, I might be pulling the ejection handle regardless of the new contract.

Xjet pilots fought over the decades for top tier pay and qol. We do not just roll over and take it up the backside. I guess Hulas didn't learn from Chip Childs' mistake.

Purplez
09-22-2018, 02:08 PM
This. If we (Xjet) are getting bought by Hulas, I might be pulling the ejection handle regardless of the new contract.

Xjet pilots fought over the decades for top tier pay and qol. We do not just roll over and take it up the backside. I guess Hulas didn't learn from Chip Childs' mistake.

You should know better. Donít listen to the crap. Good shiit coming.

Excargodog
09-22-2018, 02:34 PM
Joke is on you, MESA is going to buy all 4 (Compass, BlowJet, TSA, Expressjet) with the money they just raised and you'll be stuck working for JO... which, coming from working for HK, might not be a noticeable difference.

That would be the seniority list integration from HÄ||, a five way involving multiple unions.

Take the better part of a decade to work that one out. Most incumbents will have moved on before it ever happened.

ChopNDrop
09-22-2018, 07:08 PM
Always a possibility, but what is most likely is something happened in UALs labor negotiations to allow wholly owned subsidaries which is Kirby's preferred option. We'll find out over the next few months.

I just saw an article where UAL pilot's are making it clear that they will not budge from their current scope clause.. it could be fake news, but the source seemed reliable and was published yesterday... idk what is going on with all this, but with the training delays and the 100 new ejets..

TheNotoriousPIC
09-23-2018, 12:39 AM
I just saw an article where UAL pilot's are making it clear that they will not budge from their current scope clause.. it could be fake news, but the source seemed reliable and was published yesterday... idk what is going on with all this, but with the training delays and the 100 new ejets..

The training delays are completely independent of whatever is going on with mergers and the UAL pilot group.

ChopNDrop
09-23-2018, 06:28 AM
The training delays are completely independent of whatever is going on with mergers and the UAL pilot group.

I disagree.. we decided to buy a lot more aircraft, and in turn decided we needed to plus up our pilot group.. if this thing was called off when BB went and had his meeting at the end of August, then why wouldn't we be slowing down (not stopping) these new hire classes, rather than spending the whole dollar to send people home, with pay, for a couple months while the bottle neck gets worse?

TheWeatherman
09-23-2018, 07:00 AM
I disagree.. we decided to buy a lot more aircraft, and in turn decided we needed to plus up our pilot group.. if this thing was called off when BB went and had his meeting at the end of August, then why wouldn't we be slowing down (not stopping) these new hire classes, rather than spending the whole dollar to send people home, with pay, for a couple months while the bottle neck gets worse?


Organic growth

Rahlifer
09-23-2018, 09:36 AM
Organic growth

But if he bet the farm on some huge new amount of flying with United and they just told him to go make love to himself, weíre now stuck with 100 airplanes and nowhere to fly them. The whole branded flying with Frontier and Midwest was a spectacular failure so I donít see is going down that road again.

170driver
09-23-2018, 09:38 AM
But if he bet the farm on some huge new amount of flying with United and they just told him to go make love to himself, weíre now stuck with 100 airplanes and nowhere to fly them. The whole branded flying with Frontier and Midwest was a spectacular failure so I donít see is going down that road again.



We never actually purchased 100, we signed an MOU of intent to buy 100 aircraft. Itís not firm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

170driver
09-23-2018, 09:41 AM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180923/430b07360e92c419e49d14a8ebfd00e1.png


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

ChopNDrop
09-23-2018, 03:41 PM
We never actually purchased 100, we signed an MOU of intent to buy 100 aircraft. Itís not firm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Good point.. I guess the 2019 classes (specifically the class sizes) will be a good indication of what the future holds, assuming there isn't an announcement made by then..

FlyingKat
09-23-2018, 04:45 PM
The heart of this deal with TSA was always taking all the 145XR flying with the understanding all of those airplanes would be exchanged for 170s once UAL got a new contract with scope relief. The 25 700s at Gojet were to be exchanged for 25 175s. UAL had to use Republic to do the work for them because there has been something in their labor contracts that would not allow for owned subsidiaries like American and Delta. Otherwise UAL would have corrected this situation itself long ago.

In July UAL announces it is swapping the 700s and 175s, and within days Republic announces a plan to order 100 175s and the story about the MOU appears afterwards.

Then in late August, Expressjet gets a TA promising them the 175s with a promise to be bought by UAL, Bedford goes to Chicago and gets the bad news, and no announcement happens by the end of August as speculated. Now you see a story about UAL pulling its support of the deal, followed by another story that UAL pilots stonewalled them on scope and demanding the 175s come on property.

It appears likely that UAL and Republic bet the farm on getting the scope concessions and sometime after the announcement in July, it became apparent that those concessions weren't going to happen so UAL had to yank its promise to convert the XRs to 170s for Republic and the deal fell apart because as many have said, Bedford is not interested in flying 145s long term and UAL wants those replaced with larger aircraft.

What does the future hold? Nobody knows for sure now that the Republic deal has fallen apart. Mesa is out there looking for somebody to buy so that is always a concern. But what could be happening is UAL and its pilots have come to some kind of deal where more 175s would be allowed at a wholly owned subsidiary that is part of United. Could be that UALs plan is to buy Expressjet, TSA, Commutair and possibly other regionals. Would probably be set up so that there is some kind of path to United and a way for UAL pilots to move into these aircraft in case of furlough. This gives UAL and it pilots some of what they want. The 175s come on property, although at a different part of United, UAL pilots get furlough protection, UAL gets more 175s at competitive pay rates, UAL gets better control of its product, and finally UAL gets to replace the XRs with 175s.

So for TSH and Republic, it looks like Compass would still go to Republic (which is all Bedford really wanted anyway), Trans States goes to be a part of a new company run by UAL with Expressjet and Commutair, and Gojets UAL 700s get exchanged for the 175s at Expressjet while their Delta planes go back to Delta and likely end up at Endeavor.

amcnd
09-23-2018, 05:21 PM
I think your onto something except XJTís TA never said UA was buying them. Just that that inc wouldnít own a controlling stake... And I donít think UA will be getting into owning a regional.... but more of a helping combine some smaller UA regionals together..

FlyingKat
09-23-2018, 05:48 PM
I think your onto something except XJT’s TA never said UA was buying them. Just that that inc wouldn’t own a controlling stake... And I don’t think UA will be getting into owning a regional.... but more of a helping combine some smaller UA regionals together..

UALs purchase of Expressjet is something I have been hearing from some of their guys. I was skeptical at first because of what I have heard of UAL's restrictions on having a owned subsidiary, but its starting to look like a possibility.

You are forgetting Kirby's history with WOs at AA. But it could be the case they are going to create a company run by Expressjet management that combines all their problem children. But I don't see UALs pilots allowing the XRs to be replaced by 175s unless the company that gets them is owned by UAL, and UAL pilots have access to the seniority list in case of furlough, which would likely require a flow up as well. We'll see over the next couple of months.

amcnd
09-23-2018, 05:50 PM
Yes he has a history.. but is he willing to stake his job on it....

FlyingKat
09-23-2018, 06:28 PM
Yes he has a history.. but is he willing to stake his job on it....

I think he already did that when he cancelled the 737 orders in favor of smaller aircraft.



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