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kaputt
08-05-2018, 03:16 PM
Alright, so looking for some thoughts on this. I am currently in the military (non-pilot) with my Commercial, Instrument, and Multi-Engine ratings. Right now I'm studying for the CFI writtens and setting aside some cash to cover CFI training.. I have a buddy at my current base that is a PPL, working on his instrument right now with plans to do the same as me and get commercial, multi, and CFI eventually.


We both are looking for ways to build extra flight time. At the flying club I rent from frequently there are Light Sport aircraft that have some very nice Garmin avionics and pretty affordable rental rates. Since the safety pilot/sim instrument is the best way to split time, my question is: is it perfectly fine to have him act as my safety pilot, and I fly a VFR cross country by solely reference to the instruments? There would be no instrument approaches done, we would be on flight following, and my own personal preference would have me take the foggles off within 5-10 miles from the airport to have two sets of eyes looking for traffic.


My initial assumption is yes since you log sim instrument during your PPL training and the regulation says, "(1) A person (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=24a80ca42ed148d527b7ddad982da95a&term_occur=4&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) may log instrument (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=7fe5a7765bc41dd93adc4e9d5f03ea31&term_occur=6&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) time only for that flight time (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=f0aec8c5355fdf7ac5b33f45b2ace9af&term_occur=9&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) when the person (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=24a80ca42ed148d527b7ddad982da95a&term_occur=5&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) operates the aircraft (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=8e9caab04f792d93d0738c9d3290164e&term_occur=24&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) solely by reference to instruments (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=7fe5a7765bc41dd93adc4e9d5f03ea31&term_occur=8&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) under actual or simulated instrument (https://www.law.cornell.edu/definitions/index.php?width=840&height=800&iframe=true&def_id=7fe5a7765bc41dd93adc4e9d5f03ea31&term_occur=7&term_src=Title:14:Chapter:I:Subchapter:D:Part:61:S ubpart:A:61.51) flight conditions."



But I just want to double check. We're both looking for affordable ways to build extra flight time.


rickair7777
08-06-2018, 08:59 AM
Maybe.

The airplane would have to meet several special requirements to operate in the IFR system, under an IFR flight plan. You'll need to so some research. An LSA cannot operate in IMC, but that's OK since you want to do hood/safety pilot flying.

Can you log hood time while not actually on an IFR flight plan, ie practice approaches? I don't see why not, assuming the airplane has the minimum required instruments for IFR operations. If you log hood/SP time in a cub or LSA which has only a wet compass and slip/skid, the FAA might not see the humor in that.

TiredSoul
08-06-2018, 10:58 AM
There’s no requirement that an airplane used for Instrument currency actually needs to be IFR approved. Or certified.
Prime example being a DA-20 which is not IFR certifiable as it lacks pitot heat amongst some other things.
Here’s my question, why wats your time flying straight and level?
Is it sufficiently equipped to fly approaches ?
Take off and put the hood on at 1000’ and fly to an airport 51 miles away and fly 4-5 approaches with missed approaches then land and have your buddy do the same on the way back.
More valuable use do your time.
Oh and I don’t agree with using the safety pilot rule for time building as that’s as never then intent of the rule.
But if you choose to do so then get maximum use out of it.


JohnBurke
08-06-2018, 11:53 AM
There is also no need to be on an instrument flight plan or to have an IFR clearance, to log instrument time when flying by reference to instruments.

rickair7777
08-06-2018, 12:22 PM
There is also no need to be on an instrument flight plan or to have an IFR clearance, to log instrument time when flying by reference to instruments.

This is correct. You do however need the instruments.

rickair7777
08-06-2018, 12:26 PM
There’s no requirement that an airplane used for Instrument currency actually needs to be IFR approved. Or certified.
Prime example being a DA-20 which is not IFR certifiable as it lacks pitot heat amongst some other things.
Here’s my question, why wats your time flying straight and level?
Is it sufficiently equipped to fly approaches ?
Take off and put the hood on at 1000’ and fly to an airport 51 miles away and fly 4-5 approaches with missed approaches then land and have your buddy do the same on the way back.
More valuable use do your time.
Oh and I don’t agree with using the safety pilot rule for time building as that’s as never then intent of the rule.
But if you choose to do so then get maximum use out of it.

Pretty sure this is correct too. The airplane does not need to be certified, but again needs the instruments (and radios for whatever you're practicing).

Obviously don't fly in the system if it's not certified... having the instruments installed is not the same as "IFR certified". To further confuse matters I believe some LSA can be "certified" (ie meet the technical requiremnets) to fly IFR in the system but NOT be certified to fly in actual IMC.

This is why I stay far away from LSA...

JohnBurke
08-06-2018, 01:19 PM
This is correct. You do however need the instruments.

Or just walk around the ramp and log time on N-numbers sitting in tie-down spaces, and hope it doesn't belong to the same FAA inspector that checks the logbook on the next checkride...

kaputt
08-06-2018, 07:01 PM
Appreciate the responses. I could probably have done a better job of explaining, but it sounds like what I'm talking about falls into a bit of a grey area.

The aircraft is not IFR certified, nor does it have IFR equipment. But its also not just a Cub with wet compass and slip skid. It has a Garmin G3X avionics unit in it, but no external NAV source like a Garmin GTN 640 or Nav radios. It has its own internal GPS source which does not have any approaches. The screen presentation is standard Garmin glass cockpit.

The intent wasn't to fly "in the IFR system", or even do approaches for currency. I have another flying partner that I maintain IFR currency with. It was more just spitballin for ideas on a way to split costs and also have both of us log some relatively affordable time.

We fly in a busy area of SoCal, so the hypothetical plan would have been to do a cross country somewhere to get some food. Pick up flight following on the ground, take off, and once a few miles from the airport throw on the foggles and navigate to the destination by tracking the course line or radar vectors by sole reference to the instruments. Then, once within 5-10miles of the destination, take off the foggles and do a standard VFR pattern entry and landing.

I'm thinking that it is technically legal because of how the reg is worded and that student pilots log simulated instrument during their PPL training. But, it's probably too much of a grey area for me to feel comfortable putting it in my log book.

Appreciate the discussion though. If anyone has additional thoughts, feel free to chime in.

TiredSoul
08-06-2018, 07:09 PM
Very limited use.
Here’s a totally different thought.
Ask the flying club if you can be checked out flying from the right seat.
Your buddy does the same.
Start ‘teaching’ each other maneuvers and learn to walk, talk and chew gum at the same time.
Hardest part for CFI applicants is to keep teaching and expanding as they fly the maneuver.
Landing on the centerline is harder then it seems if al you know is the left seat. Go through all the PPL and CPL maneuvers till you can see them in your sleep.
Become fully ambidextrous and you’ll fly right through the practical CFI Training.
That would be worth far more then flying straight and level under the hood.
You just can’t log it both.



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