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View Full Version : Communication Safety Concern


WHOisHMSHost
08-10-2018, 12:11 PM
I have had trips lately where I have started to worry about our ability to communicate to ATC and to each other in the cockpit.

Since we have so many people from all over the world with many different backgrounds I'd like to say this thread is about opening a dialog on safety and not a personal attack on an individual or group in particular.

I don't know if there are ATC professionals on this board as I'd be very curious to know if they've had a hard time recently communicating with our crews. Not just that but if there has a been a noticeable change.

I have no suggestions on how to address this problem. I don't even know if this is a problem on a national scale. I'm not losing my hearing but I must sound like it by how often I need things repeated in the cockpit. While I don't have proof it feels like ATC is asking people to "say again" when anything other than a frequency change happens. Sometimes I have no idea what the guy next to me said to ATC and ATC responds to him with a "roger".

This communication safety issue is not only an issue for people with accents or English as a second language but for new hires too that have next to zero real world experience.
I feel like our new hires need a better foundation on proper phraseology. There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.
As always our captains continue to guide and gently nudge the uninitiated into line but I feel like we have been over run. I will gladly continue to help those who want to communicate properly and efficiently if they are interested. We also have an issue with people brining really low quality microphones to work. Some of these microphones need to be readjusted every time they talk because it has ether fallen away or they have to shove it in to their mouth to make them audible. I appreciate us not needing TSO'd headsets and being free but at some point we need to be able to say -this is not acceptable-.

Does anyone else see this as a safety concern?


Nordopilot
08-10-2018, 01:04 PM
I'm at a junior domicile and fly with a lot of new FOs. I have not encountered this problem nor feel like I've heard it with other SKW crews on freq. Selective hearing? Who knows. It hasn't crossed my mind yet.

amcnd
08-10-2018, 01:12 PM
If you feel it is, fill out a SCR report on SWOL. Not this forum...


Check Complete
08-10-2018, 03:01 PM
Host,

Yes, I see this subject a cause for concern and safety. Is SkyWest going to do anything about it, No. Why, there's really nothing they can. When an applicant shows up and has the "English Proficient" endorsement on their license the FAA says "good enough" which is "good enough" for SkyWest. Period. SkyWest needs the body and they really don't care about that person's use of the English language. If they have the minimums, they are as suited for hiring as anybody, never mind you can't adequately communicate with them. Your problem, not the company's.

Also, this could be seen as discrimination by the company. If the company went after somebody for their inability to adequately communicate and they launched a law suit back to the company it might be successful as they have their "English Proficient" endorsement. SkyWest avoids law suits with all they can.

SkyWest is not an innovator of safety, as it costs money. They do the FAA minimum. SkyWest is an innovator of profit. So to the original subject to scrutinize someone's English ability would only cost the company.

And one final note, I have heard the company likes to have the sponsorship of their right to work in the US. It makes them beholden to the company. I've also heard that they feel those from other countries are more prone to do what the company wants with out resistance.

If you think less like a pilot and more like an accountant you can see why it makes sense. Follow the money.

FlyyGuyy
08-10-2018, 04:03 PM
Host,

Yes, I see this subject a cause for concern and safety. Is SkyWest going to do anything about it, No. Why, there's really nothing they can. When an applicant shows up and has the "English Proficient" endorsement on their license the FAA says "good enough" which is "good enough" for SkyWest. Period. SkyWest needs the body and they really don't care about that person's use of the English language. If they have the minimums, they are as suited for hiring as anybody, never mind you can't adequately communicate with them. Your problem, not the company's.

Also, this could be seen as discrimination by the company. If the company went after somebody for their inability to adequately communicate and they launched a law suit back to the company it might be successful as they have their "English Proficient" endorsement. SkyWest avoids law suits with all they can.

SkyWest is not an innovator of safety, as it costs money. They do the FAA minimum. SkyWest is an innovator of profit. So to the original subject to scrutinize someone's English ability would only cost the company.

And one final note, I have heard the company likes to have the sponsorship of their right to work in the US. It makes them beholden to the company. I've also heard that they feel those from other countries are more prone to do what the company wants with out resistance.

If you think less like a pilot and more like an accountant you can see why it makes sense. Follow the money.

Hell I have noticed native English speaking new hires and Captains struggling with the English language. Recently I notice people don't bother checking in with the atis or and restrictions they might have. It's gotten bizarre.

WesternSkies
08-10-2018, 05:34 PM
If you feel it is, fill out a SCR report on SWOL. Not this forum...

Agreed .

rickair7777
08-11-2018, 07:02 PM
An employer would be at risk of getting sued for discrimination if they added specific english proficiency requirements on top of what the FAA has specified. Juries would nail them to the wall... if the FAA said it's safe enough, it must be.

I have heard however that the FAA is tightening up the requirements, or at least considering it. Keep filing safety reports if you want them to notice.

310skying
08-11-2018, 08:00 PM
The FAA currently mandates certain percentages of Ex-pat pilots on all wide body fleets at Korean Air and Asiana for this exact reason.

Quarryman
08-12-2018, 04:38 AM
I have had trips lately where I have started to worry about our ability to communicate to ATC and to each other in the cockpit.

Since we have so many people from all over the world with many different backgrounds I'd like to say this thread is about opening a dialog on safety and not a personal attack on an individual or group in particular.

I don't know if there are ATC professionals on this board as I'd be very curious to know if they've had a hard time recently communicating with our crews. Not just that but if there has a been a noticeable change.

I have no suggestions on how to address this problem. I don't even know if this is a problem on a national scale. I'm not losing my hearing but I must sound like it by how often I need things repeated in the cockpit. While I don't have proof it feels like ATC is asking people to "say again" when anything other than a frequency change happens. Sometimes I have no idea what the guy next to me said to ATC and ATC responds to him with a "roger".

This communication safety issue is not only an issue for people with accents or English as a second language but for new hires too that have next to zero real world experience.
I feel like our new hires need a better foundation on proper phraseology. There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.
As always our captains continue to guide and gently nudge the uninitiated into line but I feel like we have been over run. I will gladly continue to help those who want to communicate properly and efficiently if they are interested. We also have an issue with people brining really low quality microphones to work. Some of these microphones need to be readjusted every time they talk because it has ether fallen away or they have to shove it in to their mouth to make them audible. I appreciate us not needing TSO'd headsets and being free but at some point we need to be able to say -this is not acceptable-.

Does anyone else see this as a safety concern?

Get used to it. When the gates open to all foreign pilots to address the "shortage" and further depress wages just to give someone a shot at living in Murica, you'll be hearing more and more accented language. The Australians are merely the beginning of what will be an influx of foreigners wanting to work here.

Engineering has seen H1B visas overtake their profession. Computer science the same.

ajaf1656
08-12-2018, 05:47 AM
There needs to be a CBT or better yet actual ground time devoted to keeping Skywest from sounding like amateur hour out on the line.



Oh my God. You people actually exist.

Utah
08-12-2018, 06:46 AM
They've got a CBT on radio stuff. Hasn't been used in 7-8 years though.

Check Complete
08-12-2018, 07:07 PM
Learn to speak English via a CBT?

That’s management material right here!

TeamSasquatch
08-12-2018, 07:59 PM
They've got a CBT on radio stuff. Hasn't been used in 7-8 years though.

Might be time to fire it back up. 2 different Skywest crews on 2 different CTAF yesterday both went like this “XYZ traffic, yada yada yada, XYZ Taffic””. Need to drop the traffic at the end for the ones not in the loop. I blame their initial CFI’s... just one of those things that irritates me a little when I hear it..... moving on....

WesternSkies
08-12-2018, 08:16 PM
Really?
Reeeeally?

Check Complete
08-13-2018, 01:20 AM
Really?

Weeer-wee?

DarkSideMoon
08-13-2018, 05:49 AM
Might be time to fire it back up. 2 different Skywest crews on 2 different CTAF yesterday both went like this “XYZ traffic, yada yada yada, XYZ Taffic””. Need to drop the traffic at the end for the ones not in the loop. I blame their initial CFI’s... just one of those things that irritates me a little when I hear it..... moving on....

Of all the stupid things that get said on the radio, that’s the one that grinds your gears?

rickair7777
08-13-2018, 06:03 AM
Of all the stupid things that get said on the radio, that’s the one that grinds your gears?

I tried to break the noobs of certain CFI-specific radio habits, and that was one of them. Not a huge deal by any means, but useless filler on frequency doesn't really ooze professionalism.

TeamSasquatch
08-13-2018, 06:43 AM
Of all the stupid things that get said on the radio, that’s the one that grinds your gears?

I considered therapy... Already spent most of my therapy budget trying to overcome my concerns with using just one brand of ink pen.

WesternSkies
08-13-2018, 07:07 AM
How many more decades before we get a “like” button to smash.

Paid2fly
08-13-2018, 07:39 PM
How many more decades before we get a “like” button to smash.





:eek:








:D

Flogger
08-14-2018, 04:08 AM
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/ac90-42F.pdf

WHOisHMSHost
08-21-2018, 02:14 PM
I am in the minority around here which is ultimately good. I do not usually take my work home with me which is one of the reasons I like this job.
Finished another "wonderful" trip.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 08:53 AM
I am in the minority around here which is ultimately good. I do not usually take my work home with me which is one of the reasons I like this job.
Finished another "wonderful" trip.

c'mon nacho, It was not that bad :)

ajaf1656
08-22-2018, 10:55 AM
If I hear one more idiot saying "Victor" when it is clearly published that it is pronounced "VIK-TAH", I'll crap my special underwear. J.S. almighty!

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 12:09 PM
If I hear one more idiot saying "Victor" when it is clearly published that it is pronounced "VIK-TAH", I'll crap my special underwear. J.S. almighty!

That was funny!!



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