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View Full Version : What to do....


SpartanFlyer
08-16-2018, 06:47 PM
..... when a company sends you a bill for "pilot expenses related to training" but NEVER signed a contract with that company. My understanding is that I don't owe them anything but should I worry that they are going to take legal action against me or is it scare tactics?


JohnBurke
08-17-2018, 03:27 AM
..... when a company sends you a bill for "pilot expenses related to training" but NEVER signed a contract with that company. My understanding is that I don't owe them anything but should I worry that they are going to take legal action against me or is it scare tactics?

Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I'd do. Leave.

I wouldn't have agreed to work for a company with such arrangements in the first place (but if I did, I'd stay and honor my agreement). In this case, if you had no verbal agreement, no written agreement, then were it me, I'd walk out the door and not look back.

Now you did say that you signed no agreement. Were you aware of their intent to collect training costs? Was there discussion, or any handshake, verbal agreement, discussion about, or hint or intimation of this?

Your wording suggests that your employer hit you out of the blue with this; no forewarning, no prior discussion. Is this the case, or did you know they'd be wanting reimbursement?

Your comments are very vague. What are "expenses related to pilot training?" They want you to pay back the hamburger they bought at lunch, or they want the cost of your training repaid in full? What expenses, and how do they relate? What level of training, and what did you actually receive from this training?

Be specific before we move on to discuss how this applies to you, because that depends on your answer here.

sailingfun
08-17-2018, 05:04 AM
..... when a company sends you a bill for "pilot expenses related to training" but NEVER signed a contract with that company. My understanding is that I don't owe them anything but should I worry that they are going to take legal action against me or is it scare tactics?

You need to provide a lot more info.


SpartanFlyer
08-17-2018, 11:54 AM
Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I'd do. Leave.

I wouldn't have agreed to work for a company with such arrangements in the first place (but if I did, I'd stay and honor my agreement). In this case, if you had no verbal agreement, no written agreement, then were it me, I'd walk out the door and not look back.

Now you did say that you signed no agreement. Were you aware of their intent to collect training costs? Was there discussion, or any handshake, verbal agreement, discussion about, or hint or intimation of this?

Your wording suggests that your employer hit you out of the blue with this; no forewarning, no prior discussion. Is this the case, or did you know they'd be wanting reimbursement?

Your comments are very vague. What are "expenses related to pilot training?" They want you to pay back the hamburger they bought at lunch, or they want the cost of your training repaid in full? What expenses, and how do they relate? What level of training, and what did you actually receive from this training?

Be specific before we move on to discuss how this applies to you because that depends on your answer here.

1)Another company gave me a better job offer so I left.

2) The moment I told the company I was resigning due to having a better job offer, they immediately proceeded to tell me that I was going to be billed for pilot expenses (Look at #4) I was not expecting this, and if the company wanted to be reimbursed for pilot expenses, they should've made me sign a contract first day of indoc don't you think?

3)There was a discussion and I was aware of their intent to collect training costs if I decided to leave the company AFTER the initial checkride; that's when their contract kicks in. There was no handshake, verbal or written agreement after the discussion ended. I never made it to the checkride portion.

4)Basically, they are asking me to pay back hotel expenses, 2 hrs of flight time + instructor fees, and online training modules. No type rating required for this type of operation. The only thing that I received from this training was a basic 135 indoc.

Hope I'm being thorough and if you need more info just PM me.

galaxy flyer
08-17-2018, 04:22 PM
Ask for original documents showing the charges you would be responsible for in the event of leaving. There might be something binding in your job application or employment contract. If they canít show you the written languageóhave a nice day.

GF

JamesNoBrakes
08-17-2018, 10:14 PM
Send them a certified letter return receipt asking them to provide all documentation showing you would be responsible for said charges prior to said activity. State they have 10 days to respond. If they do not respond or do not provide the documents, this is great evidence in court that their "charges" hold no merit.

JohnBurke
08-18-2018, 01:59 AM
1)Another company gave me a better job offer so I left.

2) The moment I told the company I was resigning due to having a better job offer, they immediately proceeded to tell me that I was going to be billed for pilot expenses (Look at #4) I was not expecting this, and if the company wanted to be reimbursed for pilot expenses, they should've made me sign a contract first day of indoc don't you think?

3)There was a discussion and I was aware of their intent to collect training costs if I decided to leave the company AFTER the initial checkride; that's when their contract kicks in. There was no handshake, verbal or written agreement after the discussion ended. I never made it to the checkride portion.

4)Basically, they are asking me to pay back hotel expenses, 2 hrs of flight time + instructor fees, and online training modules. No type rating required for this type of operation. The only thing that I received from this training was a basic 135 indoc.

Hope I'm being thorough and if you need more info just PM me.

The account of your situation is still vague, but there are several considerations here. Your immediate concern is whether you're legally obligated fo the repayment. No, you're not. This is to say, unless the employer chooses to come after you claiming that you have a duty to pay based on an existing agreement, it may be possible, but would be far too expensive for what you're describing, to make it worth their while.

That said, you agreed to take the job, agreed to take the training, and as soon as something brighter and shinier came along, you abandoned your commitment to this employer. In so doing, you're causing harm in several ways; you're burning resources for this employer (hotel, flight time, etc), but you're also stopping the employer from hiring a more reliable pilot: you agreed, and the employer committed to you, instead of continuing to look for someone else. Now the employer is without a pilot for a longer period of time, and will have to repeat the same expenses for the next guy.

With this in mind, regardless of whether you are legally obligated to repay the costs, the professional and correct thing to do would be to offer to pay them. It is you, after all, who is breaking faith and leaving.

It's because of employees who do this that employers have training contracts. You indicate that you knew that you'd be expected to repay the training if you elected to leave. You didn't say if you'd discussed a period of service as a condition of the training, but it's very common for new hires to expected to stay six months or a year in return for the training they receive.

You indicated that you only received basic indoctrination training, but also say that you flew for two hours; flight training is not basic indoc, so it appears that you received more training than just basic indoc.

You do need to think about your reputation. You do not want a reputation as someone who takes the money and runs. This may mean taking actual money (pay), or training; whatever you get, if it has value and you don't honor your commitment to the employer, you need to look at making restitution or making the employer whole. If your'e not willing to stay once you've committed to train, then don't take the job. If you do take the job, do the honorable thing and stand behind the commitment you've made. Simply because someone else comes along and offers you more money, does not alter the fact that you'd already committed to the current employer.

Another way you might think of it is a marriage; if you've just become married and committed to one person, it's not appropriate to cheat or walk away simply because you see someone that you think is more attractive.

An employer should not need a training contract in order for an employee to honor his or her commitment.

LRSRanger
08-18-2018, 02:37 AM
That said, you agreed to take the job, agreed to take the training, and as soon as something brighter and shinier came along, you abandoned your commitment to this employer. In so doing, you're causing harm in several ways; you're burning resources for this employer (hotel, flight time, etc), but you're also stopping the employer from hiring a more reliable pilot: you agreed, and the employer committed to you, instead of continuing to look for someone else. Now the employer is without a pilot for a longer period of time, and will have to repeat the same expenses for the next guy.


Sounds to me like they should offer a competitive employment opportunity. Obviously they didnít. Sucks to be them, better luck next time.

Itís a pilots market, a lot of these places are going to get a wake up call when they canít staff their operations with max duty and min pay anymore. And thatís a good thing for any of us that fly for a living.

If you are in management or own one of these bottom rung operations, not so much.

LRSRanger
08-18-2018, 02:43 AM
For the OP, nobody gives a rats a** about some crappy outfit saying you owe them money. In the course of renewing my security clearance I recently found out that a scumbag cargo outfit has been listing me as unhirable because I owe them a few hundred bucks for god knows what. It didnít stop me from getting hired to fly a widebody, so I doubt this will impact you in any real way.

JohnBurke
08-18-2018, 04:43 AM
...

Quite so. The industry is full of pilots with zero integrity or honor, as you clearly know.

TiredSoul
08-18-2018, 12:05 PM
Spartan, how would you respond if your new employer terminates you during training because they Ďfound a better pilotí?
Itís too late now but donít do this sort of stuff.
You accepted the job, that comes with responsibilities.
Pay the training cost.

LRSRanger
08-18-2018, 12:54 PM
Quite so. The industry is full of pilots with zero integrity or honor, as you clearly know.

Employment should be a mutually beneficial, two way street. Especially when all they gave him was a week of indoc and a couple hours of flight time. Now he either has to pay up or serve a year of indentured servitude? And he didn't even sign anything?

Why should we always side with the (potentially scumbag) operator that isn't willing to offer a good enough opportunity to new hires to compel them to stay?

And since you bring up integrity and honor, that also is a two way street. No verbal or written contract means he's not on the hook in any way whatsoever, but the company still wants to send him a bill. Sounds to me like they said their contract kicked in AFTER the checkride, and now they want to go back on their word and bill him anyway. So who's integrity is really in question here?

If we want to start billing for things that there is no legal basis to bill for, he should send them a bill for his time and energy wasted at a sub-par operation that equals the amount of their invoice.

galaxy flyer
08-18-2018, 05:21 PM
Tired Soul,

Put that way, itís clear why employers do NOT do such things even in the days pastóif they acted that way, theyíd have no employees. Somehow, whenthongs reverse, itís ok.


GF

JohnBurke
08-18-2018, 09:05 PM
Employment should be a mutually beneficial, two way street. Especially when all they gave him was a week of indoc and a couple hours of flight time. Now he either has to pay up or serve a year of indentured servitude? And he didn't even sign anything?

Why should we always side with the (potentially scumbag) operator that isn't willing to offer a good enough opportunity to new hires to compel them to stay?

And since you bring up integrity and honor, that also is a two way street. No verbal or written contract means he's not on the hook in any way whatsoever, but the company still wants to send him a bill. Sounds to me like they said their contract kicked in AFTER the checkride, and now they want to go back on their word and bill him anyway. So who's integrity is really in question here?

If we want to start billing for things that there is no legal basis to bill for, he should send them a bill for his time and energy wasted at a sub-par operation that equals the amount of their invoice.

Sounds like he quit during training, not after a checkride. After all, he made a point of telling us that he received nothing but basic indoc. This is a lie however, as he said he also received flight training. Basic indoc has nothing to do with flight training.

Regardless of how far he got through training before he quit and left the employer high and dry, he did accept the job, did accept the training, and then ran away.

Your comments remind me very much of an individual who came to us years ago for a job. I was flying a single engine air tanker at the time, and we told the gentleman that he needed more tailwheel experience. He had six hundred hours or so, but all in an RV-6, which really didn't count. Something bigger. He went to an operator near Reno who towed gliders. He managed to tow one glider before balling up the tow aircraft on landing, destroying both the aircraft and the employer's business. He then returned to us, and said he'd flown a bigger airplane, and wanted a job. He still had no experience.

When we asked what happened, the pilot told us that the crash didn't count, because he wasn't being paid yet. As he wasn't really a full employee, it didn't matter. He simply destroyed the airplane and walked away.

You're attempting to suggest that the employer is somehow obligated to the original poster because the original poster took the training and ran? It's hard to fathom that you really attempted to suggest such an idiotic concept. No, the original poster has no grounds to bill the employer for "wasting his time." Did the original poster not know the terms before he started? He did. Did he not know the wage? He did. Did he not know the nature of the flying? He did. He accepted these things, and made the decision to go to work.

Indentured servitude? It's a ******* job. It's not slavery. He accepted a job. A paying job.

A job requires training, and that's an expense on the part of the employer, who invests his time and money. The employer also has an opportunity cost. The employer has stopped looking for another employee, one with better skills and more integrity, because a mutual agreement has been reached; the employer will train the original poster, and the original poster has agreed to be trained. Instead, the original poster took the job, meanwhile entertaining offers from other employers (got engaged, but kept dating around in the days leading up to the wedding), and then jilted the employer and ran off with a new employer during the wedding ceremony.

As others pointed out above, it's not okay for an employer to tell an employee that the employer has found a better employee, after the employee has been hired and is in training. The time for that is between interview and job offer. After that, it's not acceptable. An employer who does that is going to get a bad reputation among employees, and will be considered unreliable, disreputable, and dishonorable.

An applicant may, and often does, entertain multiple job offers or interviews while looking for a job. It's acceptable to receive an offer and not accept the offer. It's acceptable to interview and not go to work for that employer. It's not acceptable to accept a job offer, begin training, and then leave, which is what the original poster did.

The original poster may or may not have a legal obligation based on an oral contract or duty based on an agreement. Most likely it's not worth the cost of legal effort to recover on the part of the employer. The original poster, however, should at least offer to repay the employer. In this case, the employer has presented a bill. Rather than try to find a way to get out of it, the original poster should settle with the employer and make a clean break.

LRSRanger
08-19-2018, 09:19 AM
Alright, it's a party.

Sounds like he quit during training, not after a checkride. After all, he made a point of telling us that he received nothing but basic indoc. This is a lie however, as he said he also received flight training. Basic indoc has nothing to do with flight training.

What he did say, is that the employer stated that there would be a training contract if he quit AFTER the checkride. He quit before the checkride. Thus he owes nothing. If they wanted to pro rate the payback based on training received, this should have been the agreement. My major source of heartburn with the operator is that they said X, and now they want Y.

Regardless of how far he got through training before he quit and left the employer high and dry, he did accept the job, did accept the training, and then ran away.

I guess that's one way to put it. My first aviation job was a small VFR 135 operation. During training and my first few weeks on the job, it became obvious that there were some serious issues. The owner was new to aviation and thought he could take his lawyer to the FSDO and win. The DO, CP, and DOM were all openly hostile to the POI. There were safety concerns. The FAA came and audited us, and every pilot at the operation received LOI's. If I could give some advice to my 500-hour self, it would have been to QUIT. Quit in training, quit after the checkride, quit in the first month. Luckily I didn't get a violation there, but some others did.

I'm not saying the OP was at this kind of operation, but I just can't buy off on the idea that once I hear the magical words "your hired" I can't get to know the operation a little better and then say it's not the place for me. Sounds like he bounced pretty quickly, even if he did receive a flight or two.

Your comments remind me very much of an individual who came to us years ago for a job.... He simply destroyed the airplane and walked away.

That escalated quickly.

Deciding to gracefully bow out of training a week into it doesn't equal balling up an airplane and walking away. Not even in the same ballpark. The OP sounds like a new pilot wading through typical bottom of the barrel, time building companies and trying to make the best living he can. Your example sounds like a complete narcissistic idiot.

You're attempting to suggest that the employer is somehow obligated to the original poster because the original poster took the training and ran? It's hard to fathom that you really attempted to suggest such an idiotic concept. No, the original poster has no grounds to bill the employer for "wasting his time." Did the original poster not know the terms before he started? He did. Did he not know the wage? He did. Did he not know the nature of the flying? He did. He accepted these things, and made the decision to go to work.

I'll try to spell this out one last time. The operator stated that if the OP quit after the checkride, they would attempt to recoup training costs. The OP resigned before the checkride. They are trying to recoup costs that are outside the oral agreement. The point I was (and am still) trying to make is that their attempt to recoup costs from him outside the oral agreement is baseless, just as if he was to bill them for something outside their agreement would be baseless.

Indentured servitude? It's a ******* job. It's not slavery. He accepted a job. A paying job.

Here's Wikipedia's definition of the term: "An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time."

If you don't see the connection to the concept of a high dollar training contract for a set period of service I'm not going to bother trying to connect the dots for you, but in this case the training contract was stated to go into effect after the checkride, which they now are trying to change after the fact.



...An applicant may, and often does, entertain multiple job offers or interviews while looking for a job. It's acceptable to receive an offer and not accept the offer. It's acceptable to interview and not go to work for that employer. It's not acceptable to accept a job offer, begin training, and then leave, which is what the original poster did.

You must have an incredible amount of heartburn with the industry right now. Mil guys go to regionals to get current, and get picked up by majors, sometimes right out of IOE. I had a class date with my first choice regional till an ACMI called and I dropped them like a hot potato. There's a guy in my class who was almost done with training at some other operator when he got the call. There's so much movement going on right now, if an outfit wants to staff their operation they had better get with the program or their pilots are going to get poached, sometimes right out of training. This is the best market for pilots in years and I for one think it's great. It's management and lower-tiered operator's greatest nightmare. You sound like you might be on the management's side of the house.

JB, I generally appreciate your posts on APC. If the OP met the conditions of the oral agreement, then you and I would most likely agree. However, he is outside the contract so in this case I don't believe the outfit he went to training for has any basis to charge him for anything.

pugpilot
08-19-2018, 09:49 AM
It's not acceptable to accept a job offer, begin training, and then leave, which is what the original poster did.


Wrong.

Pilots out there - do what is best for you and your family.

JohnBurke
08-19-2018, 09:53 AM
What he did say, is that the employer stated that there would be a training contract if he quit AFTER the checkride. He quit before the checkride. Thus he owes nothing. If they wanted to pro rate the payback based on training received, this should have been the agreement. My major source of heartburn with the operator is that they said X, and now they want Y.


You don't know that at all. What entails a legal duty in one jurisdiction does not in another, and far too little information has been given. What the original poster owes is unknown, as he (or she) hasn't provided enough information, as stated multiple times.

What he or she is legally obligated to pay is likely irrelevant in that the employer will almost certainly incur expenses in excess of that amount if an attempt to collect is made.

It is also irrelevant because the original poster should pay the bill and walk away cleanly as a matter of professionalism and honor. It appears, based on the asking of the question, that this is also irrelevant, as the original poster is in possession of neither.


My first aviation job was a small VFR 135 operation. During training and my first few weeks on the job, it became obvious that there were some serious issues. The owner was new to aviation and thought he could take his lawyer to the FSDO and win. The DO, CP, and DOM were all openly hostile to the POI. There were safety concerns. The FAA came and audited us, and every pilot at the operation received LOI's.

All of which is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. The original poster has clearly stated that he exited training due to a better offer, not due to unsafe conditions, aircraft, operations, or an untenable working environment or legal concerns.


Here's Wikipedia's definition of the term: "An indentured servant or indentured laborer is an employee (indenturee) within a system of unfree labor who is bound by a signed or forced contract (indenture) to work for a particular employer for a fixed time."


You're attempting to assert indentured servitude on behalf of a training contract?

Training contracts exist precisely because of dishonorable pilots who can't live according to a handshake.

Not long ago I ran into a young man with 2,000 hours and nine type ratings. No experience, and he hadn't worked with the type ratings...just had them on his certificate. He had a habit of taking the training and running. He was attempting his tenth when I met him. He failed the training and left, fortuantely, but it's individuals such as him (and the original poster) who make an agreement and then break it, who damage the industry at large. Your apology on his behalf does not change the fact.


You must have an incredible amount of heartburn with the industry right now. Mil guys go to regionals to get current, and get picked up by majors, sometimes right out of IOE. I had a class date with my first choice regional till an ACMI called and I dropped them like a hot potato. There's a guy in my class who was almost done with training at some other operator when he got the call.

I've no heartburn with the industry whatsoever. I've likely worked in it far longer than you and have seen far more, and your comments are no surprise. Nothing new under the sun.

That you're an apologist for the original poster is because you're of the same stock; equally as dishonorable, you're party to the same sin, and defend him thanks to your own guilt.

I'm quite aware that military pilots have a long history of such dishonor. I've seen it extensively. I saw eight of them take type ratings at one company, and then run, apparently under the belief that the free world owed them a living and they had no obligation on their part. After all, their training and career had been given them.

After number eight, the employer slapped a training contract on all new hires.

Such who take the training and run are those who defecate in their own bed, and upon the industry that supports them. You may attempt to justify your acts, justification being the narcotic of the soul, but at some point your behavior will be the same bed in which you must lay and it will bite you, and continues to bite others.

No need to respond further; your admonition to the original poster to move on and don't look back is borne of your own indiscretion and dishonor. Your agenda is clear. You did it, so he should too. That would make you the cheating husband, wouldn't it? Again, no need to respond, your effort further will only be biased rhetoric.

So far as the original poster goes, pay the damn money and move on, clean.

Wrong.

Pilots out there - do what is best for you and your family.

If you feel that includes dishonor and lies, then it speaks poorly for you. However, if you feel you must, then make good by paying back the money and move on.

I've lost track of the number of times I've had offers that were better than my current job at the time, and I told the employer the same thing each time: I wouldn't do it to you, I won't do it to them. I've given up some very good offers based on that fact that my employer and I had an understanding, over a handshake.

I've also had employers that initiated a training contract based on the bad behavior of new hires. I quit. I won't work for such companies.

If you do choose to work for a company that has a training contract, then honor the damn thing.

If you agree to accept a job, then either do it, or if you bail at the first whiff of a few dollars more, then pay back the employer and move on.

Show a little integrity.

LRSRanger
08-19-2018, 10:27 AM
Not long ago I ran into a young man with 2,000 hours and nine type ratings. No experience, and he hadn't worked with the type ratings...just had them on his certificate. He had a habit of taking the training and running. He was attempting his tenth when I met him. He failed the training and left, fortuantely, but it's individuals such as him (and the original poster) who make an agreement and then break it, who damage the industry at large. Your apology on his behalf does not change the fact.

More hyperbole, just like your narriative of the guy who crashed the plane. This is obviously not descriptive of the OP's situation or question.


I'm quite aware that military pilots have a long history of such dishonor. I've seen it extensively. I saw eight of them take type ratings at one company, and then run, apparently under the belief that the free world owed them a living and they had no obligation on their part. After all, their training and career had been given them.
Holy ****, I'm getting the popcorn for that one!


Such who take the training and run are those who defecate in their own bed, and upon the industry that supports them. You may attempt to justify your acts, justification being the narcotic of the soul, but at some point your behavior will be the same bed in which you must lay and it will bite you, and continues to bite others.

No need to respond further; your admonition to the original poster to move on and don't look back is borne of your own indiscretion and dishonor. Your agenda is clear. You did it, so he should too. That would make you the cheating husband, wouldn't it? Again, no need to respond, your effort further will only be biased rhetoric.

Thanks for a good chuckle, do you talk like that at social events?


I've lost track of the number of times I've had offers that were better than my current job at the time, and I told the employer the same thing each time: I wouldn't do it to you, I won't do it to them. I've given up some very good offers based on that fact that my employer and I had an understanding, over a handshake.

I wonder if you can buy a new bass boat or fill your 401k with smug satisfaction?

Wrong.

Pilots out there - do what is best for you and your family.

This.

JohnBurke
08-19-2018, 12:32 PM
This message is hidden because LRSRanger is on your ignore list.


Vastly improved.

SpartanFlyer
08-19-2018, 05:27 PM
Wrong.

Pilots out there - do what is best for you and your family.

Yep. That's what I did.

SpartanFlyer
08-19-2018, 07:08 PM
Sounds to me like they should offer a competitive employment opportunity. Obviously they didnít. Sucks to be them, better luck next time.

Itís a pilots market, a lot of these places are going to get a wake up call when they canít staff their operations with max duty and min pay anymore. And thatís a good thing for any of us that fly for a living.

If you are in management or own one of these bottom rung operations, not so much.

Employment should be a mutually beneficial, two way street. Especially when all they gave him was a week of indoc and a couple hours of flight time. Now he either has to pay up or serve a year of indentured servitude? And he didn't even sign anything?

Why should we always side with the (potentially scumbag) operator that isn't willing to offer a good enough opportunity to new hires to compel them to stay?

And since you bring up integrity and honor, that also is a two-way street. No verbal or written contract means he's not on the hook in any way whatsoever, but the company still wants to send him a bill. Sounds to me like they said their contract kicked in AFTER the checkride, and now they want to go back on their word and bill him anyway. So who's integrity is really in question here?

If we want to start billing for things that there is no legal basis to bill for, he should send them a bill for his time and energy wasted at a sub-par operation that equals the amount of their invoice.

LRSRanger, you are dead-on with your statements here. I didn't see any of it at my previous employer.

When I originally contacted this employer, they advertised 48-52K per year; which I said it was doable for my situation, so I packed my stuff, moved out of state with a few bucks in my pocket, and left to get started with this company. I started indoc, learning about the company, doing ridealongs with their captains, etc. these captains told me that the company pretty much lied to my face about making that figure because none of them are making that figure. In fact, they are making way less. To put things into perspective, base pay was $800 per pay period + 0.10 per mile. (They never brought the base pay into discussion when I talked to them) Basically, I'd get little pay but I'd have to fly my ass off AND fly multiple types of aircraft to get to that figure (48-52k). I chose not to disclose this information because I don't see how this is relevant to my original question. I don't see why I should attempt to honor a contract when the company itself, stuck in the 70's mentality with no integrity or honor, lied to me and on top of things, have the balls to send me a bill for pilot expenses. Why lie to future pilot applicants just to get pilots through their doors? Had they worked out a better pay for me, (which they didn't like because they claimed I was going to make more than the chief pilot) I would've stayed. The other company offers a far better deal, so for those reasons, I bailed.

I don't quite understand why John Burke made this whole thread a ****-show.

SpartanFlyer
08-19-2018, 07:20 PM
Spartan, how would you respond if your new employer terminates you during training because they Ďfound a better pilotí?
Itís too late now but donít do this sort of stuff.
You accepted the job, that comes with responsibilities.
Pay the training cost.

I don't think there's a "better pilot" for any kind of flying operation. If you think there is, then you'd be on my "Don't fly with this guy" list cause your way of thinking is deadly. But to answer your question, I'd leave, no hard feelings.
and uhh NO.. not giving them a dime!

TeamSasquatch
08-19-2018, 07:21 PM
Anyone around here ever feel like this?

(See attachment)

SpartanFlyer
08-19-2018, 07:25 PM
Anyone around here ever feel like this?

(See attachment)

John Burke right there trying to tell me I'm not an honorable pilot and I must pay that company back!

galaxy flyer
08-19-2018, 07:27 PM
I don't think there's a "better pilot" for any kind of flying operation. If you think there is, then you'd be on my "Don't fly with this guy" list cause your way of thinking is deadly. But to answer your question, I'd leave, no hard feelings.
and uhh NO.. not giving them a dime!

Ok, company offers Pilot X a position and training in a new type. A week later, Pilot Z comes in with a type rating and experience in type. Question 1, is Pilot Z a better pilot than Pilot X for the company? He will save them money in training and have experience. Question 2, would it honorable for the Company to rescind the offer or fire Pilot X and offer the job to Pilot Z? That’s what you’re proposing. Besides, some pilots are objectively better than others.

However, how did it happen that you didn’t know all these terms and conditions BEFORE accepting and moving?

GF

SpartanFlyer
08-19-2018, 07:28 PM
Sounds like he quit during training, not after a checkride. After all, he made a point of telling us that he received nothing but basic indoc. This is a lie however, as he said he also received flight training. Basic indoc has nothing to do with flight training.

Regardless of how far he got through training before he quit and left the employer high and dry, he did accept the job, did accept the training, and then ran away.

Your comments remind me very much of an individual who came to us years ago for a job. I was flying a single engine air tanker at the time, and we told the gentleman that he needed more tailwheel experience. He had six hundred hours or so, but all in an RV-6, which really didn't count. Something bigger. He went to an operator near Reno who towed gliders. He managed to tow one glider before balling up the tow aircraft on landing, destroying both the aircraft and the employer's business. He then returned to us, and said he'd flown a bigger airplane, and wanted a job. He still had no experience.

When we asked what happened, the pilot told us that the crash didn't count, because he wasn't being paid yet. As he wasn't really a full employee, it didn't matter. He simply destroyed the airplane and walked away.

You're attempting to suggest that the employer is somehow obligated to the original poster because the original poster took the training and ran? It's hard to fathom that you really attempted to suggest such an idiotic concept. No, the original poster has no grounds to bill the employer for "wasting his time." Did the original poster not know the terms before he started? He did. Did he not know the wage? He did. Did he not know the nature of the flying? He did. He accepted these things, and made the decision to go to work.

Indentured servitude? It's a ******* job. It's not slavery. He accepted a job. A paying job.

A job requires training, and that's an expense on the part of the employer, who invests his time and money. The employer also has an opportunity cost. The employer has stopped looking for another employee, one with better skills and more integrity, because a mutual agreement has been reached; the employer will train the original poster, and the original poster has agreed to be trained. Instead, the original poster took the job, meanwhile entertaining offers from other employers (got engaged, but kept dating around in the days leading up to the wedding), and then jilted the employer and ran off with a new employer during the wedding ceremony.

As others pointed out above, it's not okay for an employer to tell an employee that the employer has found a better employee, after the employee has been hired and is in training. The time for that is between interview and job offer. After that, it's not acceptable. An employer who does that is going to get a bad reputation among employees, and will be considered unreliable, disreputable, and dishonorable.

An applicant may, and often does, entertain multiple job offers or interviews while looking for a job. It's acceptable to receive an offer and not accept the offer. It's acceptable to interview and not go to work for that employer. It's not acceptable to accept a job offer, begin training, and then leave, which is what the original poster did.

The original poster may or may not have a legal obligation based on an oral contract or duty based on an agreement. Most likely it's not worth the cost of legal effort to recover on the part of the employer. The original poster, however, should at least offer to repay the employer. In this case, the employer has presented a bill. Rather than try to find a way to get out of it, the original poster should settle with the employer and make a clean break.

John just go look at my response to LRS ranger. You might find more info there.

SpartanFlyer
08-19-2018, 08:22 PM
Ok, company offers Pilot X a position and training in a new type. A week later, Pilot Z comes in with a type rating and experience in type. Question 1, is Pilot Z a better pilot than Pilot X for the company? He will save them money in training and have experience. Question 2, would it honorable for the Company to rescind the offer or fire Pilot X and offer the job to Pilot Z? Thatís what youíre proposing. Besides, some pilots are objectively better than others.

However, how did it happen that you didnít know all these terms and conditions BEFORE accepting and moving?

GF
Ohhh... you're putting it into those terms, I see what you mean now. I misunderstood your original post. If Pilot Z is going to save the company money in training, then give the job to pilot Z. Obviously, rescinding the offer or firing Pilot X wouldn't be honorable BUT if Pilot X hasn't signed a training contract, then he or she is an "at-will" employee and can be terminated at any time by either the employer or employee.


I knew the terms and conditions, I knew they were going to ask for training costs if I decided to leave AFTER the initial checkride, that's when they require a 1-year contract and I was going to agree to it after I had taken my checkride. but they lied to me by saying that I was going to make 48-52K a year when in reality their captains don't make anywhere near that figure. I didn't sign anything promising I was going pay back anything prior to the checkride, I was an "at-will" employee, and I had a better offer, so I left. Plain and simple.

galaxy flyer
08-20-2018, 06:29 AM
Ohhh... you're putting it into those terms, I see what you mean now. I misunderstood your original post. If Pilot Z is going to save the company money in training, then give the job to pilot Z. Obviously, rescinding the offer or firing Pilot X wouldn't be honorable BUT if Pilot X hasn't signed a training contract, then he or she is an "at-will" employee and can be terminated at any time by either the employer or employee.

As a Chief Pilot, I can assure no business seeking employees would do hide behind the “at will” fallacy and act like that. HR would throw me out of the office with that idea.

GF

TiredSoul
08-21-2018, 07:59 AM
they advertised 48-52K per year;

these captains told me that the company pretty much lied to my face about making that figure because none of them are making that figure. I

Basically, I'd get little pay but I'd have to fly my ass off AND fly multiple types of aircraft to get to that figure (48-52k

So you could make $48k-$52k if you tried. Which means the company maybe didnít lie. Maybe just optimistic or hopeful.
Maybe the other pilots are lazy bastards or they have a side gig.
I donít think you ever gave this a fair shake.

Excargodog
08-21-2018, 09:06 AM
Honor

You either got it or you ain't.
If they weren't raised with the concept, you'll never be able to explain it to them. It's like talking Greek to a Turkish cat.

SpartanFlyer
08-21-2018, 11:56 AM
So you could make $48k-$52k if you tried. Which means the company maybe didnít lie. Maybe just optimistic or hopeful.
Maybe the other pilots are lazy bastards or they have a side gig.
I donít think you ever gave this a fair shake.

Oh, those captains are not lazy, they're just not getting paid what they deserve. As a matter of fact, 4 captains are ready to leave at any point now...why? They're not making money.

TiredSoul
08-22-2018, 03:36 PM
Oh, those captains are not lazy, they're just not getting paid what they deserve. As a matter of fact, 4 captains are ready to leave at any point now...why? They're not making money.

Itís a time building outfit and not a destination airline so whatís your point.
People come and people leave.
People come and pay and leave early.

SaltyDog
08-26-2018, 04:39 PM
"Training contracts exist precisely because of dishonorable pilots who can't live according to a handshake"

Jonathan Ornstein circa 1995 said he was doing it because he could, it was the market. No handshake, but a shakedown. Very few pilot jobs available. The pay was about 14K for first year and the training contract costs were about 14K. ALPA Randy Babbit said when he was the MEC Chair it was not an ALPA issue because pilot was on probation and between new hire and the company.
Learned a few things in those ancient days.
The market is how management looks at pilots- widgets- that they can charge if they can.
They pay bonuses now. Not because they want to pay a new hire a bonus. Its the market. Any company can't wait to furlough if they see a savings.
Just business. Pilot market overall right now. Management still going to squeeze back wherever they can. Its business after all. Management poaches other management teams pilots. Its just business. A pilot taking the offer is following the management model. Just business.

galaxy flyer
08-26-2018, 04:49 PM
Sorry to break the news, but 1995 is hardly “ancient”; it’s barely half a career ago. Surprising, we had email, Internet, airbags and phones in 1995. RVSM was 2 years away, but FANS was starting in the Pacific. Kids, these days.

Did you fly the Scooter AND post this?

GF

SaltyDog
08-26-2018, 07:48 PM
GF
LOL
Yep. 23 years ago is ancient to all the young uns flying these days. As I'm told. Am an ole Scooter flyer :)

Airbum
08-31-2018, 03:52 PM
"Training contracts exist precisely because of dishonorable pilots who can't live according to a handshake"

Jonathan Ornstein circa 1995 said he was doing it because he could, it was the market. No handshake, but a shakedown. Very few pilot jobs available. The pay was about 14K for first year and the training contract costs were about 14K. ALPA Randy Babbit said when he was the MEC Chair it was not an ALPA issue because pilot was on probation and between new hire and the company.
Learned a few things in those ancient days.
The market is how management looks at pilots- widgets- that they can charge if they can.
They pay bonuses now. Not because they want to pay a new hire a bonus. Its the market. Any company can't wait to furlough if they see a savings.
Just business. Pilot market overall right now. Management still going to squeeze back wherever they can. Its business after all. Management poaches other management teams pilots. Its just business. A pilot taking the offer is following the management model. Just business.

This, airlines declare bankruptcy yet pay out bonuses to mgt, purposely under fund retirement plans then use the legal system to cancel said plans, out source jobs, whipsaw labor groups.

It is business, the company is not your friend it is a machine.

HIFLYR
09-02-2018, 12:18 PM
Honor

You either got it or you ain't.
If they weren't raised with the concept, you'll never be able to explain it to them. It's like talking Greek to a Turkish cat.

This is correct!!! and people wonder why pay for training became the norm. The real answer to this question resides with the original poster and it is ďhow would he feel if someone else was doing this to himĒ?

joepilot
09-05-2018, 02:02 PM
There are several things that the original poster said that jump out at me.

There are no type ratings required. This is apparently a part 91 or 135 job in light airplanes. There is typically very little flight training required for a reasonably experienced pilot to pass a checkride, when no type rating is required. The FAA does not specify any minimum flight hour training requirements.


The 135 regs require quite a few different subjects be covered in ground training, but again no minimum hours are required. This ground training was apparently conducted on computer, not by a live person.


The company wants to charge for the computer lessons and instructor time. Was the instructor a company employee, and was he being paid flight pay or straight salary? If salary, it would be unreasonable to ask for instructor reimbursement, but if the instructor was being paid for flight time the reimbursement should only be at the rate that the instructor actually earns, not the price that is charged to outsiders.


Was the pilot being paid during this period, or was he expected to train for free?


If he was being paid during this period, then I would offer to pay for the hotel and the employee price (normally discounted from the full price) for the airplane flight time only.


If he was expected to train with no pay, then no money for the company.


Joe

SpartanFlyer
09-09-2018, 02:31 PM
There are several things that the original poster said that jump out at me.

There are no type ratings required. This is apparently a part 91 or 135 job in light airplanes. There is typically very little flight training required for a reasonably experienced pilot to pass a checkride, when no type rating is required. The FAA does not specify any minimum flight hour training requirements.


The 135 regs require quite a few different subjects be covered in ground training, but again no minimum hours are required. This ground training was apparently conducted on computer, not by a live person.


The company wants to charge for the computer lessons and instructor time. Was the instructor a company employee, and was he being paid flight pay or straight salary? If salary, it would be unreasonable to ask for instructor reimbursement, but if the instructor was being paid for flight time the reimbursement should only be at the rate that the instructor actually earns, not the price that is charged to outsiders.


Was the pilot being paid during this period, or was he expected to train for free?


If he was being paid during this period, then I would offer to pay for the hotel and the employee price (normally discounted from the full price) for the airplane flight time only.


If he was expected to train with no pay, then no money for the company.


Joe

The instructor was a company employee on salary.
No paid training. No per-diem, no money whatsoever. I was going to start getting paid after the initial checkride.

TiredSoul
09-09-2018, 04:36 PM
I donít think that getting stuck in the minutiae is helping any.
Was the instructor wearing a company uniform? Was this during business hours Mon-Fri?
This is called rationalization and it gets taught during your CFI as being a common defense mechanism.

Either pay or you donít.
Iím saying take the high road.
Have you considered what youíre going to tell the HR interviewer at your airline job?

SpartanFlyer
09-09-2018, 05:27 PM
I don’t think that getting stuck in the minutiae is helping any.
Was the instructor wearing a company uniform? Was this during business hours Mon-Fri?
This is called rationalization and it gets taught during your CFI as being a common defense mechanism.

Either pay or you don’t.
I’m saying take the high road.
Have you considered what you’re going to tell the HR interviewer at your airline job?

Company uniform, business hrs.
I don't know. What should I tell them?

JohnBurke
09-09-2018, 08:51 PM
Company uniform, business hrs.
I don't know. What should I tell them?

Tell them you left on good terms, honored the contract that you signed, like a big boy, and that you won't do the same to your new employer.

An employee who has acted dishonorably with a former employer can't be expected to show honor with a new employer, either.

Grow up, wear long pants, and honor your promises.

FTv3
09-09-2018, 09:20 PM
.... honored the contract that you signed....

Thought it was pretty clear he didnít sign anything and the verbal agreement applied after checkride complete. To the OP: Listen to Salty. And +1 for do whatís best for you and your family.

FTv3
09-09-2018, 09:30 PM
But also try your best to resolve it amicably and professionally.

JohnBurke
09-10-2018, 01:46 AM
Thought it was pretty clear he didn’t sign anything and the verbal agreement applied after checkride complete. To the OP: Listen to Salty. And +1 for do what’s best for you and your family.

Handshake, signature, word is bond...this is an issue of honor, rather than finding a way to slither out of it. Not all obligations are forged in ink, and he knew that by taking the job he'd incur a responsibility. That has been established.

Pay the bill, walk away.

Next time don't agree to something you won't honor.

TiredSoul
09-10-2018, 02:34 AM
Company uniform, business hrs.
I don't know. What should I tell them?

I was being facetious.
You need to see this as part of your career planning. You donít want this to be ďthe speeding ticketĒ that never goes away. Industry is good now and it may seem they hire with all sorts of dings now but when the music stops you do not want this to prevent you from getting a job.
You know...the Ďhave you everí or the Ďtell me about a timeí questions.
Keep your record clean.
In all aspects.



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