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rswitz
08-17-2018, 05:25 PM
I know it's been beaten into the ground, but I'd like to start this thread specifically to discuss the pay situation.

In light of the recent turnout and mgmt's statement of having no interest in reopening "pay talks", does anyone have any idea of what to expect going forward?

Not complaining really, but it's getting difficult to pay the bills.

Plus I'm hearing that LGA reserve guys aren't getting called.


DelTacoBowl
08-17-2018, 05:36 PM
Sure...OO is telling the pilot group to pound sand. Making a point that we should be grateful for every penny they toss our way, like the kids in Cabo that dive in the water for the change white people throw in the harbor. My point has always been that pilot domiciles remain the best recruitment tool their is. OO has the most. That gives them the largest population spread to pull from. It is well known that not commuting to a regional job is the only way to make it tolerable. Combine that with the fact that everyone assumes (incorrectly) that they are "just passing through" on their way to United. 4600 pilots at the beginning of the year, 4650ish now. Means they are keeping up with attrition. Cue the hordes that say "but just wait, the pilot shortage is coming! Then we will finally be able to stick it to them." Been waiting for it, tired of waiting for it. Off to my dream job in October. Only way to win against SGU is to work your butt off, be a professional, network like hell, and get out. If the economy hits the fan, OO is the most financially healthy regional, great backstop if things don't cut your way career wise.

I know it's been beaten into the ground, but I'd like to start this thread specifically to discuss the pay situation.

In light of the recent turnout and mgmt's statement of having no interest in reopening "pay talks", does anyone have any idea of what to expect going forward?

Not complaining really, but it's getting difficult to pay the bills.

Plus I'm hearing that LGA reserve guys aren't getting called.

rswitz
08-17-2018, 05:45 PM
Sounds about right. As long as people keep showing up, things won't improve.

As far as the pilot shortage, every pilot and thier brother wants a job at United. So United will never have recruiting issues.

I guess I'll shack up here for the Long haul. Off to Walmart to stock up on peanut butter and ramen.

Curious - is your dream job a 121 gig?


WesternSkies
08-17-2018, 05:59 PM
Theyíve been doing pay talks every month since the last proposal was shot down. This is available in your SAPA communications.

Flogger
08-17-2018, 08:31 PM
Theyíve been doing pay talks every month since the last proposal was shot down. This is available in your SAPA communications.

OMG! All this pretending about talks and negotiations!!!!

I just think it is all so cute!!!

jtsastre
08-18-2018, 12:10 AM
OMG! All this pretending about talks and negotiations!!!!

I just think it is all so cute!!!

You seem to always jump to respond to these sort of replies to defend your ďunion.Ē Why?

Arenít companies allowed to exist today without unionization? The majority of the technology sector is without union, yet theyíre not considered, as you say, ďall so cute.Ē Why? What makes aviation different from technology?

I realize the transportation sector has historically followed union laws because of the railroad, but why? Because, theyíve needed to make laws to protect their jobs? That was a positive reaction to a negative purpose. But what about today? The cause doesnít seem so justified.

gojo
08-18-2018, 06:01 AM
You seem to always jump to respond to these sort of replies to defend your ďunion.Ē Why?

Arenít companies allowed to exist today without unionization? The majority of the technology sector is without union, yet theyíre not considered, as you say, ďall so cute.Ē Why? What makes aviation different from technology?

I realize the transportation sector has historically followed union laws because of the railroad, but why? Because, theyíve needed to make laws to protect their jobs? That was a positive reaction to a negative purpose. But what about today? The cause doesnít seem so justified.

Explain ďdoesnít seem so justified.Ē Quite often things look very different when looking from the outside in verses being entangled in it on the inside. And I hate to bring this up again, but do you really believe that weíd have what we have today in this industry without a national union? Sure Skywest made a good company without a union, but Skywest isnít the same company today. Sometimes you need to change with the times and get rid of the, thatís the way weíve always done it thinking

Excargodog
08-18-2018, 07:12 AM
One can credibly argue either a pro-Union or anti-Union position.

Sham Union not so much. :confused:

amcnd
08-18-2018, 07:15 AM
Honestly sapa may have (sort-of) worked 15 years ago... Not so much anymore!! Hope for the guys that are just getting on they do something about it. Most of us leaving are beyond carrying now...

DelTacoBowl
08-18-2018, 11:31 AM
Yes I am staying in 121 flying.

Sounds about right. As long as people keep showing up, things won't improve.

As far as the pilot shortage, every pilot and thier brother wants a job at United. So United will never have recruiting issues.

I guess I'll shack up here for the Long haul. Off to Walmart to stock up on peanut butter and ramen.

Curious - is your dream job a 121 gig?

rickair7777
08-18-2018, 11:47 AM
Sure...OO is telling the pilot group to pound sand. Making a point that we should be grateful for every penny they toss our way, like the kids in Cabo that dive in the water for the change white people throw in the harbor. My point has always been that pilot domiciles remain the best recruitment tool their is. OO has the most. That gives them the largest population spread to pull from. It is well known that not commuting to a regional job is the only way to make it tolerable. Combine that with the fact that everyone assumes (incorrectly) that they are "just passing through" on their way to United. 4600 pilots at the beginning of the year, 4650ish now. Means they are keeping up with attrition. Cue the hordes that say "but just wait, the pilot shortage is coming! Then we will finally be able to stick it to them." Been waiting for it, tired of waiting for it. Off to my dream job in October. Only way to win against SGU is to work your butt off, be a professional, network like hell, and get out. If the economy hits the fan, OO is the most financially healthy regional, great backstop if things don't cut your way career wise.


x2
............

hawk21
08-18-2018, 06:03 PM
Theyíve been doing pay talks every month since the last proposal was shot down. This is available in your SAPA communications.

The people actually on the negotiating team beg to differ. They havenít talked about anything.

jtsastre
08-18-2018, 07:00 PM
Explain ďdoesnít seem so justified.Ē Quite often things look very different when looking from the outside in verses being entangled in it on the inside. And I hate to bring this up again, but do you really believe that weíd have what we have today in this industry without a national union? Sure Skywest made a good company without a union, but Skywest isnít the same company today. Sometimes you need to change with the times and get rid of the, thatís the way weíve always done it thinking

ďDoesnít seem so justifiedĒ meaning it isnít always the sure-fire way to go (in all industries.)

And I understand what youíre saying about looking at it from the inside, but and Iíve been at a union shop as well and Iím not 100% convinced. Same industry today without a union? Maybe, maybe not, I dont know.

And I agree SkyWest needs to definitely change with the times.

trip
08-18-2018, 08:17 PM
Rumor is they're gonna play the old but tried and true whipsaw game with some shiny 175s. kkkkkkkk!

WesternSkies
08-18-2018, 08:51 PM
The people actually on the negotiating team beg to differ. They havenít talked about anything.

Why donít you head over to SAPA and ask them why they are lying and report back.

DelTacoBowl
08-18-2018, 10:33 PM
I hope it goes as well as last time!

"This is as good as we are gonna get so you should vote YES!" .................................................. ......................................
"Oh yeah, we told the company this would never pass, good job pilots, thanks for showing such a unified voice."

What a disgusting, embarrassing, conflict of interest SAPA is. I would rather it not exist so at least we could just take the wide barrel every night and then go to sleep, a little sore, but honest with ourselves about what this relationship really is all about. As is we take the wide barrel and then pretend that somehow SAPA is gonna convince SkyWest its gonna be our lover some day. We are getting played worse than the freshman fat girl at her first frat party.

THANKS RJ! Those magnums are really protecting both of us.

Theyíve been doing pay talks every month since the last proposal was shot down. This is available in your SAPA communications.

hawk21
08-19-2018, 10:15 AM
Why donít you head over to SAPA and ask them why they are lying and report back.

Lol SAPA as a whole does not equal the negotiating team. Itís only a select few individuals. You know this.

DelTacoBowl
08-20-2018, 09:19 AM
Isn't "negotiating" a little presumptuous. From where I'm standing it doesn't look like SAPA has the ability or the right to turn away a garbage proposal. They might sit at the table and pretend, but at the end of the day they are shootin' blanks. And they actively promote these sub-par "TAs" as "the best we are gonna get" with all sorts of fancy graphs and calculators designed to hide the fact that they were moving money out of one groups pocket into anothers. That is not negotiating, they are just a group that specializes in marketing manipulation of the SkyWest pilot group.

Lol SAPA as a whole does not equal the negotiating team. Itís only a select few individuals. You know this.

Check Complete
08-20-2018, 09:40 AM
Isn't "negotiating" a little presumptuous. From where I'm standing it doesn't look like SAPA has the ability or the right to turn away a garbage proposal. They might sit at the table and pretend, but at the end of the day they are shootin' blanks. And they actively promote these sub-par "TAs" as "the best we are gonna get" with all sorts of fancy graphs and calculators designed to hide the fact that they were moving money out of one groups pocket into anothers. That is not negotiating, they are just a group that specializes in marketing manipulation of the SkyWest pilot group.

All true!

Not much they can do when they are bought and paid for by management.

amcnd
08-20-2018, 10:20 AM
All true!

Not much they can do when they are bought and paid for by management.

I know a few of them personally. I wouldnít say they are bought by management.. but some of them donít want to fly and like the 105hrs pay for pretending to do stuff... It is time for change. One issue is it will be the same people in sapa that will end up in alpa positions... So not sure how that will play out...

word302
08-20-2018, 11:41 AM
I know a few of them personally. I wouldnít say they are bought by management.. but some of them donít want to fly and like the 105hrs pay for pretending to do stuff... It is time for change. One issue is it will be the same people in sapa that will end up in alpa positions... So not sure how that will play out...

It definitely would not be the same people.

Nevjets
08-20-2018, 11:47 AM
I know a few of them personally. I wouldnít say they are bought by management.. but some of them donít want to fly and like the 105hrs pay for pretending to do stuff... It is time for change. One issue is it will be the same people in sapa that will end up in alpa positions... So not sure how that will play out...


When management pays their salary, they are accountable to management. At a union airline, the reps are paid by member dues, so they are accountable to the pilots. The pilots vote them in office, vote them out of office, recall them, direct them with democratically passed resolutions, etc.

As for the same people ending up in the same positions at a newly certified union, typically those who organize the union drive are the ones who are appointed and end up running for elected positions within the new union. In any case, any new reps will be newly voted for by the membership.

Check Complete
08-20-2018, 01:40 PM
And I would sooner vote in KimJun Un as president than RJ.

Turbosina
08-20-2018, 08:34 PM
And I would sooner vote in KimJun Un as president than RJ.

Considering how he's played our own Agent Orange like a piano, I'd vote for him! I'd just love to see Chip go head to head at the negotiating table with Rocket Man...

Mercyful Fate
08-21-2018, 03:13 AM
When management pays their salary, they are accountable to management. At a union airline, the reps are paid by member dues, so they are accountable to the pilots. The pilots vote them in office, vote them out of office, recall them, direct them with democratically passed resolutions, etc.

As for the same people ending up in the same positions at a newly certified union, typically those who organize the union drive are the ones who are appointed and end up running for elected positions within the new union. In any case, any new reps will be newly voted for by the membership.


Also don't forget to mention unions are also paid by pilots from different airlines, who may not have the same interests in mind for other pilots. Its all a "brotherhood" until money gets involved, and then all bets are off.

amcnd
08-21-2018, 05:11 AM
Considering how he's played our own Agent Orange like a piano, I'd vote for him! I'd just love to see Chip go head to head at the negotiating table with Rocket Man...

No. The company will ignore alpa request to negotiate. Drag it out. It will be 5 years (industry average) after our current agreement ends before we see another TA...

word302
08-21-2018, 06:36 AM
No. The company will ignore alpa request to negotiate. Drag it out. It will be 5 years (industry average) after our current agreement ends before we see another TA...

Lol. That would be suicide for the company, but ok.

rickair7777
08-21-2018, 06:52 AM
No. The company will ignore alpa request to negotiate. Drag it out. It will be 5 years (industry average) after our current agreement ends before we see another TA...

In normal times, that's exactly what they (or any airline) would do. That's always been one of the barriers to entry for ALPA at SKW... if you vote in a union, you pay dues immediately, but see nothing but status quo for at least five years. Too many folks expect to be off to the majors before they see any ROI.

Lol. That would be suicide for the company, but ok.

Maybe, maybe not. Status quo would prevent them raising new-hire pay if needed to match other regionals. But there's a way around that... scholarships to cadets... pay for their flight training (college too?), and they'll agree to indentured servitude. Since they're not employees, the CBA/status quo does not apply. Not cheap, but it focuses ALL of the compensation increases where the company wants it: on noobs. Cheaper than giving EVERYONE a big, permanent raise via CBA.

As far as retention goes... there are very few people at a regional who are on the fence and can be swayed by regional $.

Most lifers are already committed for reasons which have nothing to do with money (QOL, geography, background issues, over-experienced).

Most other regional pilots plan to leave, and no amount of regional money will change that when the bigs call.

There are a very few people caught in the middle who *might* be reatined by a big (by regional standards) raise.

Remember, regionals cannot provide significant compensation at the CA level... if they do, the regional model fails and the RJ's either go away, or go in-house at mainline.

Check Complete
08-21-2018, 08:01 AM
Ricky,

To a degree I see what you're saying and getting "some" to come in the door could be swayed by a scholarship or paying for their training. But in this day I see many of the right age to start an aviation career just don't for many reasons. The allure has dramatically soured and the way I saw aviation and maybe your's as well just isn't there like it used to be. Those that have traveled get turned off by the security garbage and all the crowds. You have to admit being a pilot today is nothing like was 20 years ago, and thanks to management the prestige has evaporated to almost nothing. 911 didn't help either. Not everyone coming in door have loans or are fresh from a training school. The hiring bonuses at the other regionals is too attractive.

And to what's coming in the door today shows what SkyWest is against. While there are some very apt pilots coming in the door there are also quite a number that as little as 3 years ago would have never been remotely considered. I have some good friends on the hiring committee that tell me stories of applicants that are almost unbelievable, but you can't make some of this stuff up, and they're hired. We are hiring those that got fired at other regionals.

So my point is if a union was voted in, SkyWest management could stomp their feet and hold their breath and pout about not giving a new contact. But the reality is they would have to get with the times and get something attractive within a year to 18 months if we did.

Kent
08-21-2018, 08:58 AM
At this point it just feels insulting that they have done so little to communicate that they will try to at least match other regionals. All of us talk to jumpseaters and friends and hear about the bonuses and better pay. SkyWest does a great job instilling a sense of pride in being the best, but it's hard to look at our pathetic pay stubs and feel validated knowing there is so much more we could be getting for ourselves and our families. Especially as our stock price soars. Other regionals have street captain offers, bonuses, and salaries to match your 121 exp. plus flow through programs. Soon they will not just be losing us to mainline but to other regionals. Commuting can be worth it and people do relocate. They really need to step up quickly.

amcnd
08-21-2018, 09:34 AM
Lol. That would be suicide for the company, but ok.

Mesa 4+ years, Frontier 3+ years. Ect.. not uncommon....

WesternSkies
08-21-2018, 09:47 AM
Wall Street bought our stock up 5 % on no news today. I guess they donít think we are getting a raise.
Big league

rickair7777
08-21-2018, 10:23 AM
To a degree I see what you're saying and getting "some" to come in the door could be swayed by a scholarship or paying for their training. But in this day I see many of the right age to start an aviation career just don't for many reasons. The allure has dramatically soured and the way I saw aviation and maybe your's as well just isn't there like it used to be. Those that have traveled get turned off by the security garbage and all the crowds. You have to admit being a pilot today is nothing like was 20 years ago, and thanks to management the prestige has evaporated to almost nothing. 911 didn't help either. Not everyone coming in door have loans or are fresh from a training school. The hiring bonuses at the other regionals is too attractive.

In the grand scheme, compared to population as a whole and the economy as a whole... the pool of interested potential pilots is actually pretty small, and the number of available airline pilot jobs is very small. The trucking industry will probably hire more drivers this year than the number of certificated pilots who have existed EVER.

If you move the career-interest needle in the general population just a hair, that will generate a number of additional pilots which is minuscule compared to the job market in general, but significant relative to the available pilot jobs. There are definitely more than a few kids out there who are more concerned with paying for school/training than they are with regional new hire bonuses. If I were in their shoes I'd be concerned mostly with cost of school and what I could ultimately make as a legacy CA.



And to what's coming in the door today shows what SkyWest is against. While there are some very apt pilots coming in the door there are also quite a number that as little as 3 years ago would have never been remotely considered. I have some good friends on the hiring committee that tell me stories of applicants that are almost unbelievable, but you can't make some of this stuff up, and they're hired. We are hiring those that got fired at other regionals.

Yeah I know. But the other regionals are hiring folks who flunked out of OO too... a marginal CFI who has 121 GS and 40+ hours of 121 full motion sim is actually a better training bet than a marginal CFI who only has ASEL experience.

One of the reasons I left was actually that I got tired of endless unpaid IOE, and also out of a very real concern that the new hires of today would be the CA's of tomorrow, and might create safety issues which could endanger the company's feed contracts. No regional which has had a fatal crash in recent memory still exists.

flyfast2u
08-21-2018, 11:12 AM
What I find interesting is that the other day three people in the Salt Lake crew lounge had on ALPA lanyards......:)

Excargodog
08-21-2018, 11:35 AM
One of the reasons I left was actually that I got tired of endless unpaid IOE, and also out of a very real concern that the new hires of today would be the CA's of tomorrow, and might create safety issues which could endanger the company's feed contracts. No regional which has had a fatal crash in recent memory still exists.

THIS^'^^

Risk management has a lot of factors. One is exposure, one is quality, and one is how you can explain the mishap.

OO has the highest exposure, just because they are the biggest. If they let the quality of the new hires go down , just to put butts in seats, that increases their risk even further. And when the inevitable happens, even if it's not the aircrew or the company's fault, the narrative becomes that the company has been paying subpar wages forever, so of course they were primed for a mishap. The fact that some employees that recently left after five years of salary less than their peers will have less than complimentary things to say - and more than a few I-told-you-so's - will complete the perfect storm.

Not sure the stockholders understand the risk.

amcnd
08-21-2018, 12:10 PM
THIS^'^^

Risk management has a lot of factors. One is exposure, one is quality, and one is how you can explain the mishap.

OO has the highest exposure, just because they are the biggest. If they let the quality of the new hires go down , just to put butts in seats, that increases their risk even further. And when the inevitable happens, even if it's not the aircrew or the company's fault, the narrative becomes that the company has been paying subpar wages forever, so of course they were primed for a mishap. The fact that some employees that recently left after five years of salary less than their peers will have less than complimentary things to say - and more than a few I-told-you-so's - will complete the perfect storm.

Not sure the stockholders understand the risk.

I would disagree. They do hire everyone. But the training failures have gone up.. the training department like other regionals are ďholding the lineĒ...

Check Complete
08-21-2018, 12:56 PM
I would disagree. They do hire everyone. But the training failures have gone up.. the training department like other regionals are ďholding the lineĒ...

Uh, no. The ground schools are becoming a more self taught atmosphere via CBTs. You canít argue our CBTs range between terrible to marginal. The ground school instructors, some have as little as 4 months time on line, all FOs. The upgrade ground school consists of 4 days after you finish over 60 CBTs, upgrade times are as little as 6 months. The ďtoughĒ sim check airman are getting scheduled to do more training than checking per one of the chief instructors. Students doing IOE are taking more and more time to get up to par. They finally pass a check ride only to go back and do more IOE because some line pilots wonít put up with garbage! A flight landed in DSM a few months ago and the CA refused to take off with the FO saying it was worse than being single pilot.

The wonder years of SkyWest having the very best training programs is long gone.

Long gone!

amcnd
08-21-2018, 01:34 PM
Uh, no. The ground schools are becoming a more self taught atmosphere via CBTs. You canít argue our CBTs range between terrible to marginal. The ground school instructors, some have as little as 4 months time on line, all FOs. The upgrade ground school consists of 4 days after you finish over 60 CBTs, upgrade times are as little as 6 months. The ďtoughĒ sim check airman are getting scheduled to do more training than checking per one of the chief instructors. Students doing IOE are taking more and more time to get up to par. They finally pass a check ride only to go back and do more IOE because some line pilots wonít put up with garbage! A flight landed in DSM a few months ago and the CA refused to take off with the FO saying it was worse than being single pilot.

The wonder years of SkyWest having the very best training programs is long gone.

Long gone!

Yes ďgroundĒ has changed. Sim
Hasnít. And as far as the ďtuffĒ ones. The names you hear are actually no the ones that have the highest failure rates!!! F

WesternSkies
08-21-2018, 01:42 PM
I heard the training failures have gone down this year relative to last year because they upped the number of sims they would allow before a). Sign off or b). termination.

There was an FO in a crew room recently that was loudly complaining how everything about skywest sucks and how much they have lied to him. He's been off OE for a couple of months and was recently picked up by the training department in denver to teach. Just great.
Think of the amount of damage a guy like this can do to morale while he pads his resume.
It only takes a few bad apples.

...but they've made the decision to pay less rather than more for quality ground school instructors.

Bonanzer
08-21-2018, 02:17 PM
Mesa 4+ years, Frontier 3+ years. Ect.. not uncommon....

Republic 7. I doubt it will take that long at Skywest. Although I understand you guys still recruit fairly well so thatís working against you.

amcnd
08-21-2018, 02:31 PM
I heard the training failures have gone down this year relative to last year because they upped the number of sims they would allow before a). Sign off or b). termination.

There was an FO in a crew room recently that was loudly complaining how everything about skywest sucks and how much they have lied to him. He's been off OE for a couple of months and was recently picked up by the training department in denver to teach. Just great.
Think of the amount of damage a guy like this can do to morale while he pads his resume.
It only takes a few bad apples.

...but they've made the decision to pay less rather than more for quality ground school instructors.

Ha. I blame social media. Look at the recruiting videos the regionals put out!! Thats not reality. Sitting in a crap crew room and laying $18 for a burger and soggy fries is reality.. tell the dude to pay his dues and one day he will get a crew meal at mainline. But complain that he has to wear a hat....

Nevjets
08-21-2018, 02:55 PM
No. The company will ignore alpa request to negotiate. Drag it out. It will be 5 years (industry average) after our current agreement ends before we see another TA...


The company cannot ignore a request to negotiate. The letter requesting section 6 negotiations is mandated by law. Refusing to negotiate is bad faith negotiations, something a union can sue in federal court over.

Using this excuse to not certify a union is like saying you donít want to go on your vacation in Tahiti because itíll take a 12 hour flight to get there. You have to go through it to get the reward. No way around it. So the sooner you start, the sooner you get there.

Also don't forget to mention unions are also paid by pilots from different airlines, who may not have the same interests in mind for other pilots. Its all a "brotherhood" until money gets involved, and then all bets are off.

What are you talking about? Are you making assumptions again?

In normal times, that's exactly what they (or any airline) would do. That's always been one of the barriers to entry for ALPA at SKW... if you vote in a union, you pay dues immediately, but see nothing but status quo for at least five years. Too many folks expect to be off to the majors before they see any ROI.



Maybe, maybe not. Status quo would prevent them raising new-hire pay if needed to match other regionals. But there's a way around that... scholarships to cadets... pay for their flight training (college too?), and they'll agree to indentured servitude. Since they're not employees, the CBA/status quo does not apply. Not cheap, but it focuses ALL of the compensation increases where the company wants it: on noobs. Cheaper than giving EVERYONE a big, permanent raise via CBA.


You donít pay dues immediately. There would be a membership drive. Once you sign up to become a member, then at that time you would start to pay dues. As for status quo, thatís a good thing! The current rules become CONTRACTUAL. Meaning you now have a federally mandated process to grieve anything and everything management doesnít comply with or changes the interpretation of any current rule, with it ultimately decided by a neutral arbitrator if needed.

In the grand scheme, compared to population as a whole and the economy as a whole... the pool of interested potential pilots is actually pretty small, and the number of available airline pilot jobs is very small. The trucking industry will probably hire more drivers this year than the number of certificated pilots who have existed EVER.

If you move the career-interest needle in the general population just a hair, that will generate a number of additional pilots which is minuscule compared to the job market in general, but significant relative to the available pilot jobs. There are definitely more than a few kids out there who are more concerned with paying for school/training than they are with regional new hire bonuses. If I were in their shoes I'd be concerned mostly with cost of school and what I could ultimately make as a legacy CA.


Every regional is going to be critically short on pilots within five years. So the question isnít going to be if they can staff, itís going to be, who can staff better than the rest. If it was easy and inexpensive to become an airline pilot as it is to become a semi-truck driver, that point would be valid. But I believe it actually works against it unless companies start pay significantly more AND paying for training.

Mercyful Fate
08-21-2018, 04:22 PM
Assumptions? No. Reality, yes.

Nevjets
08-21-2018, 05:18 PM
Assumptions? No. Reality, yes.


There is no reality in what you said.

rickair7777
08-21-2018, 06:44 PM
Every regional is going to be critically short on pilots within five years. So the question isn’t going to be if they can staff, it’s going to be, who can staff better than the rest. If it was easy and inexpensive to become an airline pilot as it is to become a semi-truck driver, that point would be valid. But I believe it actually works against it unless companies start pay significantly more AND paying for training.

The noobs don't need large compensation at the regionals, most will view it as an internship. They'll expect the money at mainline, and expect to be there in 4-5 years. Regionals might as you say get in bidding wars against each other to attract new hires, but I don't think the new hires will expect mainline wages at a regional. I also don't think the regional system can support it.

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 05:15 AM
There is no reality in what you said.


Oh sorry, you are right. The pilots that fly for majors are all in support of looking out for the regional guys, making sure they get what they want, while in turn sacrificing money. That is reality?



You always give me a chuckle.

Nevjets
08-22-2018, 06:56 AM
Oh sorry, you are right. The pilots that fly for majors are all in support of looking out for the regional guys, making sure they get what they want, while in turn sacrificing money. That is reality?



You always give me a chuckle.


This perception you have is wrong. And it has nothing to do with what I said anyway.

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 07:28 AM
This perception you have is wrong. And it has nothing to do with what I said anyway.




It is not a perception, it is dead on correct and you know that. That is why you are so much fun.



http://replygif.net/i/1472.gif

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 08:31 AM
It is not a perception, it is dead on correct and you know that. That is why you are so much fun.



http://replygif.net/i/1472.gif

keep saying that over and over and it becomes a reality?

Trump times right?

You are dead wrong. Every company under ALPA is independent. All can use the tools ALPA provide.

Yes.... what you decide within your airline may affect other airlines like scope but that is a reality with or without Union, has nothing to do with being ALPA.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 08:37 AM
The noobs don't need large compensation at the regionals, most will view it as an internship. They'll expect the money at mainline, and expect to be there in 4-5 years. Regionals might as you say get in bidding wars against each other to attract new hires, but I don't think the new hires will expect mainline wages at a regional. I also don't think the regional system can support it.

First of all, it seems like you left Skywest long time ago. You may not know that there are hundreds of Captains with resume's out there for years now that are not being called for no or any reason and that will during the time they wait try to make Skywest a better place because they might not leave at all.

Nobody expect and demands mainline wages but if the company claims to be the best regional and the employer of choice would not the highest paying among regionals be right?

Skywest needs to pay the best AT THE REGIONAL LEVEL to attract and retain pilots

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 08:48 AM
Wall Street bought our stock up 5 % on no news today. I guess they don’t think we are getting a raise.
Big league

the stock is full of air and it will sink eventually like the titanic. It is all a game about who will be the ones that will fall the most.

The stock had way more book value and better company future when it was around $13....now at $60+ , pilot shortage....company working against it's own future by not opening the wallet and paying market wages to attract and retain pilots.... not so much, (Skywest is even recruiting outside the US to get pilots)

Delta among others will take most of the Regional flying in house with A220s and at the same time the other Regionals are being smarter by adapting pay to market reality and paying way better than Skywest. I have a BA and been trading stocks since 1979 and done pretty well and I for one would never touch the Skywest stock right now, at least not long term. It is more a stock to short than anything.

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 08:59 AM
keep saying that over and over and it becomes a reality?

Trump times right?

You are dead wrong. Every company under ALPA is independent. All can use the tools ALPA provide.

Yes.... what you decide within your airline may affect other airlines like scope but that is a reality with or without Union, has nothing to do with being ALPA.




Please tell me you are kidding.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 09:01 AM
Please tell me you are kidding.

I am sure that you are not....

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 09:03 AM
I am sure that you are not....


Oh no I am not, which is why reading this blind leading the blind logic is deeply disturbing. I cannot believe how tight that wool is pulled over your peepers if that is what you really think.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 09:07 AM
Please tell me you are kidding.


"Also don't forget to mention unions are also paid by pilots from different airlines, who may not have the same interests in mind for other pilots. Its all a "brotherhood" until money gets involved, and then all bets are off."

You are not kidding when spreading things like that. You are just working in any way possible against anything being positive about Unions right? by using any statement you take out from where the sun don't shine right?


Give me 1 just 1 example that proves your statement above claiming that pilots by being Union have affected other airlines pilots in a negative way...and keep scope out of this

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 09:12 AM
"Also don't forget to mention unions are also paid by pilots from different airlines, who may not have the same interests in mind for other pilots. Its all a "brotherhood" until money gets involved, and then all bets are off."

You are not kidding when spreading things like that. You are just working in any way possible against anything being positive about Unions right? by using any statement you take out from where the sun don't shine right?


Give me 1 just 1 example that proves your statement above claiming that pilots by being Union have affected other airlines pilots in a negative way


Delta. Comair.


Who's interests were put first? Pssssst, has to do with who had the most money filling the coffers.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 09:13 AM
Oh no I am not, which is why reading this blind leading the blind logic is deeply disturbing. I cannot believe how tight that wool is pulled over your peepers if that is what you really think.

just say it right out

you are against Unions no matter what right?

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 09:14 AM
Delta. Comair.


Who's interests were put first? Pssssst, has to do with who had the most money filling the coffers.

that was not in any way voted by pilots or decided by the unions

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 09:15 AM
Delta. Comair.


Who's interests were put first? Pssssst, has to do with who had the most money filling the coffers.

that was all politics within Delta owned companies

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 09:20 AM
just say it right out

you are against Unions no matter what right?


When it comes to the airline industry, absolutely. It is not a level playing field, no matter what anybody says. If the playing field was level, and the "dues" pilots paid in were looked at equally, it is a different ball game. Regional pilots that fly contract work for the majors are getting ripped off big time. I guess unions are good for regionals if you like getting bent over and screwed.



All smoke, mirrors and parlor tricks for the regional union guys.

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 09:23 AM
that was not in any way voted by pilots or decided by the unions


Are you seriously under the delusion that ALPA did not play a factor in that whole mess???? Its all tied together dude, come back to reality.

gojo
08-22-2018, 09:48 AM
When it comes to the airline industry, absolutely. It is not a level playing field, no matter what anybody says. If the playing field was level, and the "dues" pilots paid in were looked at equally, it is a different ball game. Regional pilots that fly contract work for the majors are getting ripped off big time. I guess unions are good for regionals if you like getting bent over and screwed.



All smoke, mirrors and parlor tricks for the regional union guys.

If Mainline to regional ALPA isnít a level playing field what would you call mainline ALPA to Skywest SAPA? I guarantee you youíd come out way more that 1.8 percent ahead of where you are now. Whatís really a rip-off is the way Skywest takes advantage of every union program without supporting it

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 09:52 AM
If Mainline to regional ALPA isn’t a level playing field what would you call mainline ALPA to Skywest SAPA? I guarantee you you’d come out way more that 1.8 percent ahead of where you are now. What’s really a rip-off is the way Skywest takes advantage of every union program without supporting it


I would call it a non level playing field like I said. When you fly coded contract flying for a partner, it is impossible to have a level playing field regardless of who "represents" you. Anyone that says there is, is either drunk, or playing you for a fool.

BrewCity
08-22-2018, 10:24 AM
I would call it a non level playing field like I said. When you fly coded contract flying for a partner, it is impossible to have a level playing field regardless of who "represents" you. Anyone that says there is, is either drunk, or playing you for a fool.

So, just to confirm, we are to believe that you are a wealthy investor who owns a sizeable number of SKYW shares who is also concerned with the intricacies of intra-union fairness between legacy and FFD pilots?

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 10:32 AM
So, just to confirm, we are to believe that you are a wealthy investor who owns a sizeable number of SKYW shares who is also concerned with the intricacies of intra-union fairness between legacy and FFD pilots?


Don't be such a simpleton. Of course I am concerned and have opinions about the industry as a whole. For you to think that SKYW is the only thing in aviation I am concerned about is way off.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:22 AM
Don't be such a simpleton. Of course I am concerned and have opinions about the industry as a whole. For you to think that SKYW is the only thing in aviation I am concerned about is way off.

Well why don't you let the skywest pilots care about themselves and their future and take your opinions when it is about something that will affect Skywest pilots somewhere else?

I do not see you caring about Skywest pilots being now number 4 in pay at the regional level......

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 11:28 AM
Well why don't you let the skywest pilots care about themselves and their future and take your opinions when it is about something that will affect Skywest pilots somewhere else?

I do not see you caring about Skywest pilots being now number 4 in pay at the regional level......


Oh, don't like my opinions? Grow a pair and deal with it you poor baby. Such a weak and pathetic thing to say.



I do care about the pilot group, and have never said otherwise.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:34 AM
When it comes to the airline industry, absolutely. It is not a level playing field, no matter what anybody says. If the playing field was level, and the "dues" pilots paid in were looked at equally, it is a different ball game. Regional pilots that fly contract work for the majors are getting ripped off big time. I guess unions are good for regionals if you like getting bent over and screwed.



All smoke, mirrors and parlor tricks for the regional union guys.

what is strange is that even the union regional under Skywest inc has better contract than us. If it wasn't for Regionals with unions the pay for all regionals would be lower.

To compare Regional with Mainline ant talk about even field is another argument too keep pilots from organizing. Nobody expect major airline pay at the regional level but Skywest is the biggest regional in the world that has not only been able to be ahead of everybody else but has also expanded like no other airline in the world owns almost the whole fleet and builds new hangars constantly around the country.

There is wealth and room to take it from number 4 to the best paying Regional without issues and that is needed for the survival of the company long term and if the company does not understand it then some of us feel that we need a Union. You can have your opinions about unions but if you are not a Skywest pilot then keep it outside because if you are not one of us then you should not even been interfering in the matter

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:34 AM
Oh, don't like my opinions? Grow a pair and deal with it you poor baby. Such a weak and pathetic thing to say.



I do care about the pilot group, and have never said otherwise.

so are you saying you are a Skywest pilot?

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 11:36 AM
so are you saying you are a Skywest pilot?




Nope. I am not. You know that, as does everyone else.



And don't go with the nonsense that someone that isn't a pilot should keep their mouth shut.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:40 AM
Nope. I am not. You know that, as does everyone else.



And don't go with the nonsense that someone that isn't a pilot should keep their mouth shut.


about pilot contract in our airline? absolutely

This is a pilot forum and each airline has it's own section so if you are not a pilot and not from our airline you should not interfere in our business or even be in our forum giving opinions about Skywest pilots isuess

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 11:44 AM
about pilot contract in our airline? absolutely

This is a pilot forum and each airline has it's own section so if you are not a pilot and not from our airline you should not interfere in our business or even be in our forum giving opinions about Skywest pilots isuess


So, you use this forum to conduct your "business"? Give me a freaking break. This is a public forum that anyone can join. Maybe if your "business" is that sensitive you should keep it in house on a secure server with access limited to those who are pilots. I can comment all I want on whatever I want, regardless if you like it or not. Does that hurt your feelings?

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:47 AM
So, you use this forum to conduct your "business"? Give me a freaking break. This is a public forum that anyone can join. Maybe if your "business" is that sensitive you should keep it in house on a secure server with access limited to those who are pilots. I can comment all I want on whatever I want, regardless if you like it or not. Does that hurt your feelings?

and you are just a troll (not even a pilot) trying to work against Skywest pilots getting an Union, we get it...but you know what, you motivate us even more so....please stay

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 11:49 AM
and you are just a troll (not even a pilot) trying to work against Skywest pilots getting an Union, we get it...but you now what, you motivate us even more so....please stay


Wasn't planning on leaving in the first place. Even more awesome that you feel I have the power to swing your union status. This is getting funnier by the minute.



And by the way, its "know what" not "now what"

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:54 AM
Wasn't planning on leaving in the first place. Even more awesome that you feel I have the power to swing your union status. This is getting funnier by the minute.



And by the way, its "know what" not "now what"

Swing our union status? if you mean getting Alpa to Skywest then YES you are helping. We do not have it now and you are for sure helping us get it. You are proving all points. Thank you so much.

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 11:55 AM
Swing our union status? if you mean getting Alpa to Skywest then YES you are helping. We do not have it now and you are for sure helping us get it. You are proving all points. Thank you so much.


Oh do tell me how I am helping. This should be rich....

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:55 AM
Swing our union status? if you mean getting Alpa to Skywest then YES you are helping. We do not have it now and you are for sure helping us get it. You are proving all points. Thank you so much.

Go back to your desk issues and continue with your management work or what ever it is you do.

Why are you even in a pilot forum?

you dream of being a pilot?

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:56 AM
Oh do tell me how I am helping. This should be rich....

you are helping by being you

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 11:57 AM
Go back to your desk issues and continue with your management work or what ever it is you do.

Why are you even in a pilot forum?

you dream of being a pilot?


Why are you responding to your own posts? WOW

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 11:59 AM
So, you use this forum to conduct your "business"? Give me a freaking break. This is a public forum that anyone can join. Maybe if your "business" is that sensitive you should keep it in house on a secure server with access limited to those who are pilots. I can comment all I want on whatever I want, regardless if you like it or not. Does that hurt your feelings?

we conduct our business on all fields and social media is a platform like Trump and the Russians have shown the nation that is is one that can even be used to win presidential elections right?


and that is why you care and that is why you are here trolling not even being a pilot in a pilot forum

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 12:00 PM
Why are you responding to your own posts? WOW

you know i responded it to you

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 12:02 PM
we conduct our business on all fields and social media is a platform like Trump and the Russians have shown the nation that is is one that can even be used to win presidential elections right?


and that is why you care and that is why you are here trolling not even being a pilot in a pilot forum


No watching displays like this is why I post. This type of stuff is priceless.

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 12:04 PM
No watching displays like this is why I post. This type of stuff is priceless.

now...did you get hurt? sensitive matters?

Why are you even in a pilot forum?

you dream of being a pilot?

I ask again

Excargodog
08-22-2018, 12:05 PM
Skywest needs to pay the best AT THE REGIONAL LEVEL to attract and retain pilots

Especially since they seem to be morphing into SkyEast.

As Rickair says, people from out West will give up a lot to stay out West, but if they are going to wind up sitting reserve at LGA anyway, you are going to have to pay them what Republic pays them.

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 12:10 PM
now...did you get hurt? sensitive matters?

Why are you even in a pilot forum?

you dream of being a pilot?

I ask again


I am in a pilot forum to use my overwhelming super powers to influence each and every pilot to never vote in a union. Pilots hold me in such high regard they take everything I say to heart, because I control their minds.



Dream of being a pilot? Um no. My super powers are better used to influence union outcomes.



Any other questions?

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 12:15 PM
I am in a pilot forum to use my overwhelming super powers to influence each and every pilot to never vote in a union. Pilots hold me in such high regard they take everything I say to heart, because I control their minds.



Dream of being a pilot? Um no. My super powers are better used to influence union outcomes.



Any other questions?

ok super power troll, what is it the you work with exactly.....
I can locate your IP but what is it that you actually do there?

Mercyful Fate
08-22-2018, 12:17 PM
ok super power troll, what is it the you work with exactly.....
I can locate your IP but what is it that you actually do there?


I influence union outcomes. How many times you going to ask this?

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 12:19 PM
I influence union outcomes. How many times you going to ask this?

carry on

thanks

HermannGraf
08-22-2018, 12:24 PM
Oh, don't like my opinions? Grow a pair and deal with it you poor baby. Such a weak and pathetic thing to say.



I do care about the pilot group, and have never said otherwise.

Hey troll, this is interesting....

why do you care about the Skywest pilot group?

hawk21
08-22-2018, 12:29 PM
Hey troll, this is interesting....

why do you care about the Skywest pilot group?


Mercyful Fate is the office troll around here. Just ignore him.

rickair7777
08-22-2018, 01:20 PM
ok super power troll, what is it the you work with exactly.....
I can locate your IP but what is it that you actually do there?

I didn't realize we had made you an admin here. Hw exactly are you going to locate his IP, through your friends at the NSA?

rickair7777
08-22-2018, 01:26 PM
First of all, it seems like you left Skywest long time ago. You may not know that there are hundreds of Captains with resume's out there for years now that are not being called for no or any reason and that will during the time they wait try to make Skywest a better place because they might not leave at all.

Yes, I know this painfully well, as I have many friends.

But the noobs don't know this, or at least they suffer from typical extreme pilot optimism and thus are willing to proceed on "best case" assumptions. And actually, for the first time in history such optimism might align approximately with reality in a few years.


Nobody expect and demands mainline wages but if the company claims to be the best regional and the employer of choice would not the highest paying among regionals be right?

Why would they do that if they don't have to?


Skywest needs to pay the best AT THE REGIONAL LEVEL to attract and retain pilots

Not as long as there are pilots who want to live in the west.

FollowMe
08-22-2018, 02:34 PM
Especially since they seem to be morphing into SkyEast.

As Rickair says, people from out West will give up a lot to stay out West, but if they are going to wind up sitting reserve at LGA anyway, you are going to have to pay them what Republic pays them.

Point of clarification it is FlyEast, and the representative arm will be renamed the FlyEast Unified Pilots Association, or FUPA.

Excargodog
08-22-2018, 03:05 PM
Point of clarification it is FlyEast, and the representative arm will be renamed the FlyEast Unified Pilots Association, or FUPA.

How about the FlyEast Unified Benefits Associated Representatives or FUBAR?

Sounds consistent with current practice.

rickair7777
08-22-2018, 03:20 PM
Point of clarification it is FlyEast, and the representative arm will be renamed the FlyEast Unified Pilots Association, or FUPA.

Not quite skyeast yet... you can still bid west eventually, and that's better than being stuck in the east forever.

If it becomes bad enough, that could be a factor eventually.

Jefferson
08-22-2018, 04:21 PM
You seem to always jump to respond to these sort of replies to defend your ďunion.Ē Why?

Arenít companies allowed to exist today without unionization? The majority of the technology sector is without union, yet theyíre not considered, as you say, ďall so cute.Ē Why? What makes aviation different from technology?

I realize the transportation sector has historically followed union laws because of the railroad, but why? Because, theyíve needed to make laws to protect their jobs? That was a positive reaction to a negative purpose. But what about today? The cause doesnít seem so justified.


How are negotiations going?

Paid2fly
08-22-2018, 07:56 PM
When it comes to the airline industry, absolutely. It is not a level playing field, no matter what anybody says. If the playing field was level, and the "dues" pilots paid in were looked at equally, it is a different ball game. Regional pilots that fly contract work for the majors are getting ripped off big time. I guess unions are good for regionals if you like getting bent over and screwed.



All smoke, mirrors and parlor tricks for the regional union guys.







Speaking of "smoke, mirrors and parlor tricks", did you happen to see the last offer that was put out to the pilot group?:confused:;):rolleyes:

Nevjets
08-22-2018, 09:43 PM
I would call it a non level playing field like I said. When you fly coded contract flying for a partner, it is impossible to have a level playing field regardless of who "represents" you. Anyone that says there is, is either drunk, or playing you for a fool.


Yes, the leverage at mainline is a lot higher than at the regionals. But thatís not a valid comparison. The comparison is between SAPA and an actual certified union under the RLA.

By the way, youíve confirmed your assumption. Youíve been referring to ALPA when Iíve havenít mentioned any specific Union on this thread. Not that that changes the fact that your understanding is wrong.

Mercyful Fate
08-23-2018, 06:16 AM
Yes, the leverage at mainline is a lot higher than at the regionals. But thatís not a valid comparison. The comparison is between SAPA and an actual certified union under the RLA.

By the way, youíve confirmed your assumption. Youíve been referring to ALPA when Iíve havenít mentioned any specific Union on this thread. Not that that changes the fact that your understanding is wrong.


Hey psssst, this thread isn't all about you, sorry fella. As you can see, there are some others that are involved. You want this to be a one on one discussion, drop me a PM. I will be glad to dismantle your logic that way.


Also, you dont run the risk getting booted again by doing that either. I miss that potty mouth of yours.

Melit
08-23-2018, 07:39 AM
Not quite skyeast yet... you can still bid west eventually, and that's better than being stuck in the east forever.

If it becomes bad enough, that could be a factor eventually.

People do want to live in the east but you knew that right?

Excargodog
08-23-2018, 07:56 AM
People do want to live in the east but you knew that right?


Yep, poor fools. Met some of them during a four year stint in DC. Most of them thought Chicago was "out West."

Nevjets
08-23-2018, 08:06 AM
Hey psssst, this thread isn't all about you, sorry fella. As you can see, there are some others that are involved. You want this to be a one on one discussion, drop me a PM. I will be glad to dismantle your logic that way.


Also, you dont run the risk getting booted again by doing that either. I miss that potty mouth of yours.



Hey psst, on post #25 of this thread you quoted ME. Meaning you involved yourself in a conversation I was having by making a comment on what I said. It was you who made your comment about me by quoting what I said. You made it about what I said by assuming I was referring to ALPA, when I didnít even mention them. I specifically asked you what you were referring to and you kept making your incorrect assumptions about my post you quoted. It was you who made it about my post by making that incorrect assumption. So with that simple dismantling of your logic out of the way, there is no need for PMs to show you made an assumption to suit your preconceived incorrect notion of how a union may or may not work. And now you are desperately backtracking to show you werenít wrong to begin with. Go ahead and tell mommy on me if thatís all you have. Iím sure youíll misconstrue what I said again anyway.

Melit
08-23-2018, 08:47 AM
Hey psst, on post #25 of this thread you quoted ME. Meaning you involved yourself in a conversation I was having by making a comment on what I said. It was you who made your comment about me by quoting what I said. You made it about what I said by assuming I was referring to ALPA, when I didnít even mention them. I specifically asked you what you were referring to and you kept making your incorrect assumptions about my post you quoted. It was you who made it about my post by making that incorrect assumption. So with that simple dismantling of your logic out of the way, there is no need for PMs to show you made an assumption to suit your preconceived incorrect notion of how a union may or may not work. And now you are desperately backtracking to show you werenít wrong to begin with. Go ahead and tell mommy on me if thatís all you have. Iím sure youíll misconstrue what I said again anyway.
Go back to flight info. This site is for grown ups..

gojo
08-23-2018, 10:17 AM
Go back to flight info. This site is for grown ups..

Pot meet kettle. Although I think youíre offended when logic is used?

Mercyful Fate
08-23-2018, 10:54 AM
Hey psst, on post #25 of this thread you quoted ME. Meaning you involved yourself in a conversation I was having by making a comment on what I said. It was you who made your comment about me by quoting what I said. You made it about what I said by assuming I was referring to ALPA, when I didnít even mention them. I specifically asked you what you were referring to and you kept making your incorrect assumptions about my post you quoted. It was you who made it about my post by making that incorrect assumption. So with that simple dismantling of your logic out of the way, there is no need for PMs to show you made an assumption to suit your preconceived incorrect notion of how a union may or may not work. And now you are desperately backtracking to show you werenít wrong to begin with. Go ahead and tell mommy on me if thatís all you have. Iím sure youíll misconstrue what I said again anyway.


Backtracking? I don't backtrack, and don't have a need to do so. Dude, I know you are insecure, and hate me with a burning passion. So bad, that you in the past have gone on profane name calling rants at me, enough that you got banned, and then changed your name completely. Like I said, if you are so confident in your logic, I will gladly discuss anything you want via PM. I know you won't do that, because I think you have figured out you are not talking to some johnny-come-lately when it comes to this topic.



Care to continue?

rickair7777
08-23-2018, 03:26 PM
People do want to live in the east but you knew that right?

Airline pilot is a great job for those people, the majority of jobs are there, and they go junior. They should take the biggest bonus and fastest flow.

But if you don't want to live there, OO has something to offer.

Hawker445
08-23-2018, 04:13 PM
Yes, I know this painfully well, as I have many friends.

But the noobs don't know this, or at least they suffer from typical extreme pilot optimism and thus are willing to proceed on "best case" assumptions. And actually, for the first time in history such optimism might align approximately with reality in a few years.



Why would they do that if they don't have to?



Not as long as there are pilots who want to live in the west.


Jezz, so do they expect pilots to live in the most Podunk cities and commute to SFO?

rswitz
08-23-2018, 04:22 PM
Just got paid. A little over $900 for two weeks of work. I'm not even enrolled in benefits. What the hell is going on?

Am I really an airline pilot for 20k a year?

Check Complete
08-23-2018, 05:30 PM
Just got paid. A little over $900 for two weeks of work. I'm not even enrolled in benefits. What the hell is going on?

Am I really an airline pilot for 20k a year?

Employer of choice?

rickair7777
08-23-2018, 05:54 PM
Jezz, so do they expect pilots to live in the most Podunk cities and commute to SFO?

Sure, if you want to.

Fixnem2Flyinem
08-23-2018, 06:11 PM
Just got paid. A little over $900 for two weeks of work. I'm not even enrolled in benefits. What the hell is going on?

Am I really an airline pilot for 20k a year?

Thatís what I said when I seen my first few paychecks as well. Especially when my rent and crashpad combined was 1600 a month. Get a good credit card and start racking up the debt or live like a bum

HermannGraf
08-23-2018, 07:15 PM
I didn't realize we had made you an admin here. Hw exactly are you going to locate his IP, through your friends at the NSA?

Not interested in being an admin and never claimed I was, you can keep that desirable position/title or what ever makes you happy

and I am not interested in teaching you how to find IPs, find that out yourself.

I am surprised how someone that used to be a pilot at Skywest and have friends here always make an effort to understand the company side of views more than the pilots.

Nobody needs to do anything in this world but some do it just because it is the right thing to do comparing to the market and the Industry or because they see what is coming and care about the future of the company and not just greed and save a buck.

The company does not need your help against the pilot group either. We have enough trolls doing that.
To talk like it was some logic not to pay better because they do not need to is just feeding ignorance. That is looking at it all short term very short term. They sure need to raise the wages as more than 80 a month are leaving right now and many are doing lateral moves going to other regionals.

Do you really think this will not affect us at Skywest?

If it is not for the pilot shortage then maybe just maybe they should raise the wages to avoid the Union.......just saying

Arrogans and 'this is how we always done it" will end working one day....
Greed is good but it can take down any size company. The bigger the bigger the fall. Skywest management knows how to milk most out of the operation but staffing is their weakness, wait a bit longer and we will see......Foreign pool is drying too

rickair7777
08-23-2018, 08:07 PM
Not interested in being an admin and never claimed I was, you can keep that desirable position/title or what ever makes you happy

I am not an admin.


and I am not interested in teaching you how to find IPs, find that out yourself.

I already know how. Viewing IP's used to access APC using the built in tools is one way. There are plenty of other ways, but they would all involve actual hacking, which is generally illegal.

So which is it, are you illegally hacking APC, or are you an internet tough guy who's full of BS?




I am surprised how someone that used to be a pilot at Skywest and have friends here always make an effort to understand the company side of views more than the pilots.

Nobody needs to do anything in this world but some do it just because it is the right thing to do comparing to the market and the Industry or because they see what is coming and care about the future of the company and not just greed and save a buck.

The company does not need your help against the pilot group either. We have enough trolls doing that.
To talk like it was some logic not to pay better because they do not need to is just feeding ignorance. That is looking at it all short term very short term. They sure need to raise the wages as more than 80 a month are leaving right now and many are doing lateral moves going to other regionals.

Do you really think this will not affect us at Skywest?

If it is not for the pilot shortage then maybe just maybe they should raise the wages to avoid the Union.......just saying

Arrogans and 'this is how we always done it" will end working one day....
Greed is good but it can take down any size company. The bigger the bigger the fall. Skywest management knows how to milk most out of the operation but staffing is their weakness, wait a bit longer and we will see......Foreign pool is drying too

I'm pointing out facts of life. I do understand the company's point of view, and others need to as well (that's not the same as agreeing with it).

What "should be" and what's "fair" are mostly N/A in the business world, especially airlines, and most especially regionals. Understanding the actual lay of the land is a crucial first step to solving any problems you may have. A few key take-aways....

1) Management will not do anything that costs money because they "should" or it's "fair".
2) They will not increase compensation just because other airlines are doing it.
3) In the regional world, attrition is not a problem. In fact it's desirable as it keeps costs low, as long as there's no delta between attrition and recruiting.
4) The company may eventually increase compensation if necessary to adjust recruiting and/or attrition. But as I've said before, there's a limit to how much they can slow attrition because of the economic realities, ie severe imbalance between mainline and regional career compensation. Almost anyone who gets a big-6/legacy call is leaving. Even increasing pay by $100/hr would do almost nothing to change that.
5) The company has in the past (by reputable accounts) asked the mainline partners to reduce their hiring of OO pilots. They will most likely do so again, if they haven't already.
6) If the company loses their strategic vision and screws up the attrition/recruiting balance, the company might be in big trouble. Alternatively, the company may strategically shrink rather than lock in permanent pay increases. But there's nothing pilots can do about that.

Those are some realities that you have to comprehend before you can accomplish anything at all. I don't think you can accomplish anything with sapa as it stands now (that's opinion, not fact).

bronc
08-23-2018, 08:30 PM
Not interested in being an admin and never claimed I was, you can keep that desirable position/title or what ever makes you happy

and I am not interested in teaching you how to find IPs, find that out yourself.

I am surprised how someone that used to be a pilot at Skywest and have friends here always make an effort to understand the company side of views more than the pilots.

Nobody needs to do anything in this world but some do it just because it is the right thing to do comparing to the market and the Industry or because they see what is coming and care about the future of the company and not just greed and save a buck.

The company does not need your help against the pilot group either. We have enough trolls doing that.
To talk like it was some logic not to pay better because they do not need to is just feeding ignorance. That is looking at it all short term very short term. They sure need to raise the wages as more than 80 a month are leaving right now and many are doing lateral moves going to other regionals.

Do you really think this will not affect us at Skywest?

If it is not for the pilot shortage then maybe just maybe they should raise the wages to avoid the Union.......just saying

Arrogans and 'this is how we always done it" will end working one day....
Greed is good but it can take down any size company. The bigger the bigger the fall. Skywest management knows how to milk most out of the operation but staffing is their weakness, wait a bit longer and we will see......Foreign pool is drying too

Hint hint...shareholder..

word302
08-24-2018, 06:32 AM
Airline pilot is a great job for those people, the majority of jobs are there, and they go junior. They should take the biggest bonus and fastest flow.

But if you don't want to live there, OO has something to offer.

unless of course you want to be a captain someday.

rickair7777
08-24-2018, 08:23 AM
unless of course you want to be a captain someday.

You can be a CA in the west someday, it will just take a while. Might not be a bad plan B if you get stuck.

rickair7777
08-24-2018, 08:24 AM
Hint hint...shareholder..

I hope you're not implying that I'M a shareholder... airlines would be the very last thing I would ever invest in, if for no other reason than you don't want both your job and savings dependent on the same potentially very volatile industry.

HermannGraf
08-24-2018, 09:07 AM
I am not an admin.



I already know how. Viewing IP's used to access APC using the built in tools is one way. There are plenty of other ways, but they would all involve actual hacking, which is generally illegal.

So which is it, are you illegally hacking APC, or are you an internet tough guy who's full of BS?





I'm pointing out facts of life. I do understand the company's point of view, and others need to as well (that's not the same as agreeing with it).

What "should be" and what's "fair" are mostly N/A in the business world, especially airlines, and most especially regionals. Understanding the actual lay of the land is a crucial first step to solving any problems you may have. A few key take-aways....

1) Management will not do anything that costs money because they "should" or it's "fair".

when I said , "It's the right thing to do" was in relation to recruiting and what other Regionals are attracting pilots with. I heard several pilots that wanted to go to skywest but took another Regional because of the big pay diff


2) They will not increase compensation just because other airlines are doing it.
And that is why they will get more and more behind in the recruitment competition and will fail big if we do not change that



3) In the regional world, attrition is not a problem. In fact it's desirable as it keeps costs low, as long as there's no delta between attrition and recruiting.
That used to be the old model when supply was bigger than demand, not anymore so much, attrition now is a big problem as junior pilots are leaving some even before doing 1 year. It is costly to be a training department for other Regionals

4) The company may eventually increase compensation if necessary to adjust recruiting and/or attrition. But as I've said before, there's a limit to how much they can slow attrition because of the economic realities, ie severe imbalance between mainline and regional career compensation. Almost anyone who gets a big-6/legacy call is leaving. Even increasing pay by $100/hr would do almost nothing to change that.
retaining as much as possible is important, avoiding lateral moves by staying competitive in compensation is key, skywest is taking on more and more flying and it is also the largest pilot group and that makes it the most vulnerable

5) The company has in the past (by reputable accounts) asked the mainline partners to reduce their hiring of OO pilots. They will most likely do so again, if they haven't already.
Can't ask the ones we do not fly for for that, Southwest, Spirit, Allegiant, fedex, Atlas, etc etc do not care about Skywest attrition problems and United, Delta and america will continue hiring Skywest Pilots. If Skywest asked Delta not to hire they seem to not care

6) If the company loses their strategic vision and screws up the attrition/recruiting balance, the company might be in big trouble. Alternatively, the company may strategically shrink rather than lock in permanent pay increases. But there's nothing pilots can do about that.
Shrink will be what may save us for a while because we are so big but that creates new contract problems in the relation to the majors we fly for

Those are some realities that you have to comprehend before you can accomplish anything at all. I don't think you can accomplish anything with sapa as it stands now (that's opinion, not fact).

I been in the industry for more than 20 years and I think I understand a lot and I am sure than in some areas more than you.....

" I don't think you can accomplish anything with sapa as it stands now (that's opinion, not fact)."

at least we agree on that...

word302
08-24-2018, 09:38 AM
You can be a CA in the west someday, it will just take a while. Might not be a bad plan B if you get stuck.

Lol. 5 to 8 years. You can be a captain in the west at Compass or Horizon much faster.

Skyhawk121
08-24-2018, 09:55 AM
Just got paid. A little over $900 for two weeks of work. I'm not even enrolled in benefits. What the hell is going on?

Am I really an airline pilot for 20k a year?


Are you still in new hire training? Since you only get a 65 hour guarantee in training, your checks are typically quite a bit less than after you get beyond the 65 hour guarantee.

Nevjets
08-24-2018, 10:15 AM
Backtracking? I don't backtrack, and don't have a need to do so. Dude, I know you are insecure, and hate me with a burning passion. So bad, that you in the past have gone on profane name calling rants at me, enough that you got banned, and then changed your name completely. Like I said, if you are so confident in your logic, I will gladly discuss anything you want via PM. I know you won't do that, because I think you have figured out you are not talking to some johnny-come-lately when it comes to this topic.



Care to continue?


Yeah, definitely backtracking. First you made the assumption that I was speaking about ALPA. That was wrong. I purposely omitted any reference to any specific union, especially ALPA since itís been voted down twice. Second, when your incorrect assumption was finally made clear to you, you then said that you were talking to everyone on the thread (that is the backtracking part). Even though you specifically quoted my post in a response to me indicating your lack of knowledge about pilot unions, and ALPA specifically.

Now go ahead and tell mommy that someone is being mean to you again by pointing out your ignorance.:)

Mercyful Fate
08-24-2018, 10:20 AM
Yeah, definitely backtracking. First you made the assumption that I was speaking about ALPA. That was wrong. I purposely omitted any reference to any specific union, especially ALPA since itís been voted down twice. Second, when your incorrect assumption was finally made clear to you, you then said that you were talking to everyone on the thread. Even though you specifically quoted my post in a response to me indicating your lack of knowledge about pilot unions, and ALPA specifically.

Now go ahead and tell mommy that someone is being mean to you again by pointing out your ignorance.:)


Are you just doing copy and paste? Drop me a PM, I have been waiting. Come on there fella, come drop some knowledge on me.

rickair7777
08-24-2018, 12:55 PM
Lol. 5 to 8 years. You can be a captain in the west at Compass or Horizon much faster.

Then by all means, do it!

I'm not advocating SKW, I'm explaining why they think they can get away with what they're doing. If you choose another regional you'll be doing your small part to prove them wrong.

amcnd
08-24-2018, 01:35 PM
Lol. 5 to 8 years. You can be a captain in the west at Compass or Horizon much faster.

Totally agree. Only gamble is Compass flying contracts are up soon. And Horizon has its upís and downís every 5-10 years... long reserve and not much flying.. realy depends on long term goals....

zondaracer
08-24-2018, 01:52 PM
Lol. 5 to 8 years. You can be a captain in the west at Compass or Horizon much faster.

FAT is below 3 years... but then itís Fresno.

DelTacoBowl
08-24-2018, 04:06 PM
:(......I remember when the realization sunk in about the mediocrity of working for a regional. hurts a little in crotchal region. Keep a long term view, fly a lot, be professional, stay positive in the cockpit as much as possible, network like hell, and get the hell out of their.

Just got paid. A little over $900 for two weeks of work. I'm not even enrolled in benefits. What the hell is going on?

Am I really an airline pilot for 20k a year?

Nevjets
08-24-2018, 05:43 PM
Are you just doing copy and paste? Drop me a PM, I have been waiting. Come on there fella, come drop some knowledge on me.


I like proving you wrong in public.;) But at least youíve given up trying to backtrack.

PS. PMs are a two way street. If you canít handle being wrong in public, you are free to PM me first.

gojo
08-24-2018, 06:44 PM
I like proving you wrong in public.;) But at least youíve given up trying to backtrack.

PS. PMs are a two way street. If you canít handle being wrong in public, you are free to PM me first.

This banter reminds me of the General and Mercyful on flight info. Although, it was the same person then

Check Complete
08-24-2018, 07:54 PM
This banter reminds me of the General and Mercyful on flight info. Although, it was the same person then

So if Mercury Fate isnít a pilot and just a stirring troll, what does she do, run the drive up at Taco Bell?

Mercyful Fate
08-25-2018, 05:06 AM
I like proving you wrong in public.;) But at least youíve given up trying to backtrack.

PS. PMs are a two way street. If you canít handle being wrong in public, you are free to PM me first.


Still waiting on ya potty mouth....drop that PM.

Mercyful Fate
08-25-2018, 05:07 AM
So if Mercury Fate isnít a pilot and just a stirring troll, what does she do, run the drive up at Taco Bell?


Ahhh come on, you can do better than this. This is elementary school level garbage.

Mercyful Fate
08-25-2018, 05:12 AM
This banter reminds me of the General and Mercyful on flight info. Although, it was the same person then


Those days were awesome.....too bad Genital killed that place.



https://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/073852/073852016772.jpg

Nevjets
08-25-2018, 03:20 PM
This banter reminds me of the General and Mercyful on flight info. Although, it was the same person then


Sorry, I shouldíve known better and not fed this troll.

gojo
08-25-2018, 05:01 PM
So if Mercury Fate isnít a pilot and just a stirring troll, what does she do, run the drive up at Taco Bell?

I couldnít tell you. Iíve been reading his/her posts for at least a decade under Iím pretty sure two different screen names. I honestly canít think of a single post that offered something useful. He/she is very good at provoking people/trolling

Mercyful Fate
08-25-2018, 05:25 PM
I couldnít tell you. Iíve been reading his/her posts for at least a decade under Iím pretty sure two different screen names. I honestly canít think of a single post that offered something useful. He/she is very good at provoking people/trolling


Guess that makes two of us that have not offered anything useful.



The only ones that get provoked are those that don't have their heads on straight. So, what does that say about you, eh?

Mercyful Fate
08-25-2018, 05:27 PM
Sorry, I shouldíve known better and not fed this troll.


One would think you would have known better after your first banning. But, you just cannot help it.



https://www.listenandlearnaustralia.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/1709a11476d16de6ce424787238896ae_where-did-you-get-that-potty-mouth-the-toilet-store-brick-potty-mouth-meme_400-300.jpeg

Check Complete
08-26-2018, 05:43 PM
I couldnít tell you. Iíve been reading his/her posts for at least a decade under Iím pretty sure two different screen names. I honestly canít think of a single post that offered something useful. He/she is very good at provoking people/trolling

I'm not sure if I have this right but didn't Mercury admit he/she, boy/girl doesn't even work for the airline industry, not a pilot, nothing to do with aviation?

Maybe its employ by Ford & Harrison to drag down labor?

DirkDiggler
08-26-2018, 11:07 PM
He's not a pilot and doesn't work for SkyWest or XJT. Union busting is still alive and well. Old but informative video: https://youtu.be/tAgjII4CRi4

Mercyful Fate
08-27-2018, 02:46 AM
I'm not sure if I have this right but didn't Mercury admit he/she, boy/girl doesn't even work for the airline industry, not a pilot, nothing to do with aviation?

Maybe its employ by Ford & Harrison to drag down labor?


Can I ask you an honest question, and I am being serious about this.


Do you really believe that anything I post or say on this forum means jack squat? Lets be real here. There is not a thing discussed on this board that means anything to the airline industry. It is a bunch of opinionated people blabbing their thoughts and comments to complete strangers. Do you really find me as a threat to airline pilot unions? Are my comments and posts going to do anything? If they are, then there are way bigger issues you need to be worried about. The funny thing is, you can count on two hands the people who end up in these same discussions, week in, and week out.



I guess the real question is, why do my posts bother you so much?

Mercyful Fate
08-27-2018, 02:48 AM
He's not a pilot and doesn't work for SkyWest or XJT. Union busting is still alive and well. Old but informative video: https://youtu.be/tAgjII4CRi4


to you as well


Can I ask you an honest question, and I am being serious about this.


Do you really believe that anything I post or say on this forum means jack squat? Lets be real here. There is not a thing discussed on this board that means anything to the airline industry. It is a bunch of opinionated people blabbing their thoughts and comments to complete strangers. Do you really find me as a threat to airline pilot unions? Are my comments and posts going to do anything? If they are, then there are way bigger issues you need to be worried about. The funny thing is, you can count on two hands the people who end up in these same discussions, week in, and week out.



I guess the real question is, why do my posts bother you so much?

rswitz
08-28-2018, 05:31 AM
Employer of choice?

Any employer willing to pay me a decent wage to fly airplanes.

gojo
08-28-2018, 06:30 AM
Any employer willing to pay me a decent wage to fly airplanes.

Your decent and someone elseís decent is all relative. People that go to Skywest under these conditions only delay the pethere from getting what they deserve

Melit
08-28-2018, 10:13 AM
Any employer willing to pay me a decent wage to fly airplanes.

The real question is why did you except the job offer knowing the pay scale?

Melit
08-28-2018, 11:18 AM
The real question is why did you accept the job offer knowing the pay scale?

yeah well I can't edit it now.

rswitz
08-29-2018, 01:19 AM
The real question is why did you except the job offer knowing the pay scale?

For a multitude of reasons and decisions I made with my family. Sometimes the best choice involves making sacrifices. The DEN base and the fact that SkyWest has a solid reputation. The alternative was permanent commuting to EWR, even though it had higher pay.

Melit
08-29-2018, 04:05 AM
For a multitude of reasons and decisions I made with my family. Sometimes the best choice involves making sacrifices. The DEN base and the fact that SkyWest has a solid reputation. The alternative was permanent commuting to EWR, even though it had higher pay.
So stop whining. You accepted the terms of employment. You're part of the problem. If classes stay full like they are there is no need to raise pay or give bigger bonuses.

Melit
08-29-2018, 04:07 AM
Any employer willing to pay me a decent wage to fly airplanes.
I guess that's not true. You aren't willing to commute to EWR..

Voski
08-29-2018, 05:09 AM
SAPA meeting went down yesterday ... pay talks are back.

Check Complete
08-29-2018, 07:57 AM
SAPA meeting went down yesterday ... pay talks are back.

I hope it has a positive tone to things, this brake drop garbage is already a 5 to 10 % cut.

MELIT, are you always the life of the party?

Bravix
08-29-2018, 08:29 PM
I hope it has a positive tone to things, this brake drop garbage is already a 5 to 10 % cut.

MELIT, are you always the life of the party?

By the way, I've been told that FA's in CQ are still being told that taking water, basic snacks, etc. from the cart is stealing and that it also applies to pilots.

I doubt they're telling pilots that, but I'm sure their idea is to coerce the FA's into being unwilling to give stuff to the pilots.

Hawker445
08-29-2018, 11:12 PM
SAPA meeting went down yesterday ... pay talks are back.

Was that the actual purpose of the meeting? Does SAPA send out a notice and a summary of what went down, and when itís over it spreads like wildfire or is it closed doors until something firm is set up?

rickair7777
08-30-2018, 06:38 AM
Was that the actual purpose of the meeting? Does SAPA send out a notice and a summary of what went down, and when itís over it spreads like wildfire or is it closed doors until something firm is set up?

SAPA should disclose meetings and details for routine stuff.

In the case of things like pay negotiations, or discussions involving an NDA, they will not disclose the details.

amcnd
08-30-2018, 07:01 AM
I think will have something ( New TA) by the September sapa meeting... just a hunch.

E6BAV8R
08-30-2018, 07:11 AM
I think will have something ( New TA) by the September sapa meeting... just a hunch.

I wonder if SAPA brought Latency issues into the new pay discussions now.

amcnd
08-30-2018, 07:15 AM
I wonder if SAPA brought Latency issues into the new pay discussions now.

Read the president update posted this morning.... yes they are discussing it.

Voski
08-30-2018, 09:01 AM
Anything around Republic & Endeavor rates & work rules should be the starting point...

amcnd
08-30-2018, 09:06 AM
SAPA should disclose meetings and details for routine stuff.

In the case of things like pay negotiations, or discussions involving an NDA, they will not disclose the details.

Yes they do. Problem is 80% of the pilot group doesnít care to get involved or even to log onto the sapa website to look at the meeting notes.. Ive even seen people that have stayed logged into a crew room computer and have 500+ unread swol emails...

hawk21
08-30-2018, 11:38 AM
I think will have something ( New TA) by the September sapa meeting... just a hunch.


I think that is too optimistic. Would be nice though.

Bravix
08-30-2018, 09:48 PM
Yes they do. Problem is 80% of the pilot group doesnít care to get involved or even to log onto the sapa website to look at the meeting notes.. Ive even seen people that have stayed logged into a crew room computer and have 500+ unread swol emails...

That last part means nothing, frankly. I'm sure I have at least a hundred unread SWOL messages. I've read them all though. If you get them forwarded to your email address, there isn't much point in opening it again on SWOL.

amcnd
08-31-2018, 06:24 AM
That last part means nothing, frankly. I'm sure I have at least a hundred unread SWOL messages. I've read them all though. If you get them forwarded to your email address, there isn't much point in opening it again on SWOL.

And how many people do you think forward it to there home emails??? No a lot. I showed someone that feature and they flipped. Had no idea. Was a 15 year guy....

I did some more digging and i think will have something to vote on October/November time frame...

trip
08-31-2018, 07:24 AM
Yes they do. Problem is 80% of the pilot group doesnít care to get involved or even to log onto the sapa website to look at the meeting notes.. Ive even seen people that have stayed logged into a crew room computer and have 500+ unread swol emails...

They forward email to personal address and read on their phone, message stays unread on company site.

word302
08-31-2018, 09:29 AM
And how many people do you think forward it to there home emails??? No a lot. I showed someone that feature and they flipped. Had no idea. Was a 15 year guy....

I did some more digging and i think will have something to vote on October/November time frame...

Everyone I know forwards it.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 09:42 AM
Everyone I know forwards it.

I never did. Try to keep my personal, ecommerce, military, and airline emails all separate. Helps with sanity.

amcnd
08-31-2018, 11:25 AM
So why in the blank canít we get more then 20% participation on surveys!!! Then people get mad because they donít loke 4 day trips. I ask. Did you do the RSR parings survey... NO. Head slam

Paid2fly
08-31-2018, 12:47 PM
So why in the blank canít we get more then 20% participation on surveys!!! Then people get mad because they donít loke 4 day trips. I ask. Did you do the RSR parings survey... NO. Head slam












They ignore our base preference every time we vote. In fact, every time we vote for more locals and 2 day trips, we end up with less of those and more 3 and 4 day trips than ever.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 02:27 PM
They ignore our base preference every time we vote. In fact, every time we vote for more locals and 2 day trips, we end up with less of those and more 3 and 4 day trips than ever.

Talk to the company-wide RSR. The local base RSR's have been known to "represent" their own best interests in some cases.

Ibnav8r
08-31-2018, 04:17 PM
So why in the blank canít we get more then 20% participation on surveys!!! Then people get mad because they donít loke 4 day trips. I ask. Did you do the RSR parings survey... NO. Head slam

I do the surveys every time they come out. Am I an idiot or what?

Perhaps if these endless surveys actually bore fruit, so to speak, the other 80% might actually be more engaged. I can't tell you how many schedule, pay and QOL surveys I've taken over the years. Despite clear and convincing results, nothing ever comes of it - ever.

We want good paying locals and 2-3 day trips and decent paying stand-ups. We get 17-hour 4-days that start early and end late. If we're lucky we get MDG locals and really ugly stand-ups that get foisted on the people that never wanted them in the first place.

We want more money = sorry, you're already too expensive but if you agree to give up your bonuses, we'll ALMOST make up for it in pay.

How about commuter parking, reserve blocks, better reserve rules, better vacation accrual. Sorry, it's an IT problem.

Unless you're going to actually make something happen with the data gained, these surveys are a waste of time. 80% percent have figured that out. But, sadly, I still cling to hope.

trip
09-01-2018, 03:42 PM
Wow all that hiring and that was the increase? Now the training dept is getting thin? Somebody better get this ball rolling, I heard SEP is gonna be a world of hurt.

Kent
09-18-2018, 12:13 PM
Any new news?

amcnd
09-18-2018, 01:14 PM
Any new news?

On what? Classes are full....

Paid2fly
09-18-2018, 02:08 PM
On what? Classes are full....
















Along with a double digit washout rate(even with extra sims and 100+IOE)...
:rolleyes::eek::confused:

word302
09-18-2018, 03:23 PM
On what? Classes are full....

According to who? Recruiters are saying otherwise.

amcnd
09-18-2018, 04:40 PM
According to who? Recruiters are saying otherwise.

According to the class rosters posted on the classroom door..

SpartanFlyer
09-18-2018, 07:23 PM
Along with a double-digit washout rate(even with extra sims and 100+IOE)...
:rolleyes::eek::confused:

According to who? Recruiters are saying otherwise.

According to the class rosters posted on the classroom door...

Soooo... (based on you guys' observations) if someone were to interview at OO, are they gonna wait for a couple of months for a class date?

Check Complete
09-18-2018, 09:28 PM
According to who? Recruiters are saying otherwise.


Recruiters = Used Car Dealers = Missionaries..........

What do you want to hear?

bonanza
09-19-2018, 03:06 AM
Soooo... (based on you guys' observations) if someone were to interview at OO, are they gonna wait for a couple of months for a class date?

You can get a class date within two weeks or the next. I was given a choice on the CRJ of what ever I wanted. A new class starts every other Wed

Melit
09-19-2018, 08:49 AM
According to who? Recruiters are saying otherwise.

Why do you even bother commenting ?

SpartanFlyer
09-19-2018, 10:21 AM
You can get a class date within two weeks or the next. I was given a choice on the CRJ of what ever I wanted. A new class starts every other Wed

Thanks! I have my interview on Friday and had no idea how quickly they were giving class dates

IceFlash
09-19-2018, 01:16 PM
A friend of mine just interviewed last friday, and they told him classes are full til late october/ early november...

Excargodog
09-19-2018, 02:45 PM
Any idea when/if management is going to do something about the industry lagging pay scales?

amcnd
09-19-2018, 03:57 PM
Any idea when/if management is going to do something about the industry lagging pay scales?

Sapa meeting coming up. I would guess October, maybe sooner.

hawk21
09-19-2018, 06:18 PM
Sapa meeting coming up. I would guess October, maybe sooner.

I hear murmurs about something by the end of the year. I wouldnít be surprised to see something after the next meeting.

domino
09-19-2018, 08:41 PM
Any idea when/if management is going to do something about the industry lagging pay scales?

Company is stalling knowing that a recession is likely within the 12-18 months. Then they will say “well, we were going to give you this, but now we need to get this from you”. And don’t think they won’t furlough. They didn’t before because the Brasilia was a nuisance. With all jets, easy to furlough and just move people between aircraft. SkyWest pilots had leverage and blew it two times. Now the company is just waiting for that downturn.....

hawk21
09-19-2018, 10:31 PM
Company is stalling knowing that a recession is likely within the 12-18 months. Then they will say ďwell, we were going to give you this, but now we need to get this from youĒ. And donít think they wonít furlough. They didnít before because the Brasilia was a nuisance. With all jets, easy to furlough and just move people between aircraft. SkyWest pilots had leverage and blew it two times. Now the company is just waiting for that downturn.....

Oh come on. Nobody knows when the next recession is. And if you somehow know, Iím gonna need some stock advice. But you donít. What a ridiculous comment. Take off the tinfoil hat.

EngineOut
09-20-2018, 02:55 PM
Don't forget, SkyWest typically grows in the recovery and REALLY grows in the downturns.

That being said, large corporations (and unions) usually employ teams of economists to forecast the state of the economy. Many I have read are forecasting 2019-2020 as the time frame for recession. But, even broke clocks are right twice a day.

OOfff
09-21-2018, 12:59 AM
Don't forget, SkyWest typically grows in the recovery and REALLY grows in the downturns.

That being said, large corporations (and unions) usually employ teams of economists to forecast the state of the economy. Many I have read are forecasting 2019-2020 as the time frame for recession. But, even broke clocks are right twice a day.
Remember when Goldman Sachs forecasted $200/bbl oil?

domino
09-21-2018, 08:04 AM
Oh come on. Nobody knows when the next recession is. And if you somehow know, Iím gonna need some stock advice. But you donít. What a ridiculous comment. Take off the tinfoil hat.

Nobody knows. But the signs are already there. Buckle up sunshine. Itís gonna be rough. Save the pennies now

rickair7777
09-21-2018, 09:42 AM
Nobody knows. But the signs are already there. Buckle up sunshine. It’s gonna be rough. Save the pennies now

Some of the signs are there. But who knows if correlation to past trends equals causation?

Everyone keeps saying it's "overdue". By what standard?

Any cyclical/resonant system is driven by an equation with variables. Anyone who says the economy must be cyclical, is acknowledging the existence of said equation and variables... otherwise the economy would never change.

If one acknowledges that variables exist, then one probably has to admit they can be changed...

Who's to say the variables haven't changed? I suspect one of the big variables is consumer/worker (over)confidance. That, combined with lax regulations and policy, can cause the economy to become excessively leveraged, "out on a limb" if you will.

Most of today's consumers and workers lived through the last one, and are probably somewhat more wary because of it. Fiscal regulations and policy changed.

Those are two possible variables which might have changed. There may also be variable(s) related to the pace of economic transactions. E-commerce probably affects such variable(s), one way or the other. I suspect E-commerce makes things more stable, because it seems to be far more "just-in-time", with not as much capital sunk in infrastructure and inventory.

I don't have the expertise or interest to try to figure out such equations or variables, but I know they exist and strongly suspect they've changed since we've already broken the old cyclical paradigm. So the cycle is longer now (I assume there's still a cycle). How much longer is hard to predict, also what the magnitude of the cycle might be.

SpeedV2
09-26-2018, 05:07 AM
So all this forecasting aside word in the crewroom is they are voting on a pay proposal and SAPA wants to get it out to us before the weekend.

domino
09-26-2018, 10:43 AM
Some of the signs are there. But who knows if correlation to past trends equals causation?

Everyone keeps saying it's "overdue". By what standard?

Any cyclical/resonant system is driven by an equation with variables. Anyone who says the economy must be cyclical, is acknowledging the existence of said equation and variables... otherwise the economy would never change.

If one acknowledges that variables exist, then one probably has to admit they can be changed...

Who's to say the variables haven't changed? I suspect one of the big variables is consumer/worker (over)confidance. That, combined with lax regulations and policy, can cause the economy to become excessively leveraged, "out on a limb" if you will.

Most of today's consumers and workers lived through the last one, and are probably somewhat more wary because of it. Fiscal regulations and policy changed.

Those are two possible variables which might have changed. There may also be variable(s) related to the pace of economic transactions. E-commerce probably affects such variable(s), one way or the other. I suspect E-commerce makes things more stable, because it seems to be far more "just-in-time", with not as much capital sunk in infrastructure and inventory.

I don't have the expertise or interest to try to figure out such equations or variables, but I know they exist and strongly suspect they've changed since we've already broken the old cyclical paradigm. So the cycle is longer now (I assume there's still a cycle). How much longer is hard to predict, also what the magnitude of the cycle might be.

Indeed. Good reading here...


https://www.mauldineconomics.com/frontlinethoughts/train-crash-preview

Turbosina
09-26-2018, 12:57 PM
So all this forecasting aside word in the crewroom is they are voting on a pay proposal and SAPA wants to get it out to us before the weekend.

Probably not this weekend but quite likely by next.

hawk21
09-26-2018, 01:14 PM
Got a buddy in class. They had someone high up in SAPA (I'll let you guess who) come in and tell them we will see something Monday or Tuesday. They want it active Nov 1 if approved by the pilot group. Curious what we hear tomorrow on the SAPA call.

Is offline
09-26-2018, 06:51 PM
Got a buddy in class. They had someone high up in SAPA (I'll let you guess who) come in and tell them we will see something Monday or Tuesday. They want it active Nov 1 if approved by the pilot group. Curious what we hear tomorrow on the SAPA call.

Thatís what they said three months ago when they ****ed on everyone and tried to convince them it was raining.

hawk21
09-27-2018, 12:00 PM
Thatís what they said three months ago when they ****ed on everyone and tried to convince them it was raining.


What on earth are you talking about? :confused:

N1CEandEZ
09-27-2018, 01:23 PM
Rumor is that we should hear something tommorow. Sounds like itís quite an improvement from the last one.

Voski
09-27-2018, 02:30 PM
Rumor is that we should hear something tommorow. Sounds like itís quite an improvement from the last one.

Obviously timed for the day after the XJT TA got approved.

Utah
09-27-2018, 03:41 PM
Rumor is that we should hear something tommorow. Sounds like itís quite an improvement from the last one.

No more working on days that end with y?

N1CEandEZ
09-28-2018, 06:16 AM
New TA is out...

sailingfun
09-28-2018, 06:19 AM
New TA is out...

Very inciteful and informative statement.

Cefiro
09-28-2018, 06:26 AM
Still have to investigate, but at first glance looks pretty solid. Rates similar to last except everyone keeps bonuses.

N1CEandEZ
09-28-2018, 06:29 AM
Still have to investigate, but at first glance looks pretty solid. Rates similar to last except everyone keeps bonuses.

Yeah still nothing for commuters which sucks. But wasnít necessarily optimistic for that. But option for a 40,000 sign on bonus... that will probably solve any looming hiring issues with the purposes rate no problem.

Cefiro
09-28-2018, 06:45 AM
Yeah still nothing for commuters which sucks. But wasnít necessarily optimistic for that. But option for a 40,000 sign on bonus... that will probably solve any looming hiring issues with the purposes rate no problem.

Agreed, but they rarely weave QOL policies into pay packages.

Tippy
09-28-2018, 06:58 AM
Agreed about the commuter stuff but that doesnt HAVE to be tied to a pay package, Ive heard there is a commuter hotel policy in the works outside of the TA. This Spreads out the pay scales more evenly across all years and keeps bonuses. At first glance I like it (minus a thing or two) need to read it again as i just woke up.

trip
09-28-2018, 07:14 AM
What, no fuzzy math?

Voski
09-28-2018, 08:32 AM
What are some of the high points, low points of the proposed TA?

trip
09-28-2018, 08:37 AM
What are some of the high points, low points of the proposed TA?

Low point> Company is willing to offer wheel barrows of cash to people who donít work here.

Voski
09-28-2018, 08:41 AM
Low point> Company is willing to offer wheel barrows of cash to people who donít work here.

So that's actually pretty unfortunate.

Hawker445
09-28-2018, 08:51 AM
Low point> Company is willing to offer wheel barrows of cash to people who don’t work here.

More context?






Would anyone be willing to share the document? Was it voted on or is it a proposal?

rickair7777
09-28-2018, 08:53 AM
Low point> Company is willing to offer wheel barrows of cash to people who donít work here.

That's their only motivation to do anything at all.

trip
09-28-2018, 09:12 AM
That's their only motivation to do anything at all.

Yes itís unfortunate that is the direction they choose. They could easily stem the flow of experienced pilots leaving to places like NK, AK, JB, F9, KA, Atlas, Allegiant, etc. with a nice package or flow retention. That would eliminate the need to hire and train 100+ a month, think of the savings in training cost.
Of course those will always leave for the big 4-6 should the opportunity present itself.
New hire bonuses are just a temporary bandaid in hope that the pilot shortage fixes itself or goes away.

amcnd
09-28-2018, 09:20 AM
Not bad TA. They seemed to fix the stuff that killed the last one....Our 50 seat rates will be as high as XJT 76 seat rates they just signed...

jumppilot71
09-28-2018, 10:04 AM
Agreed about the commuter stuff but that doesnt HAVE to be tied to a pay package, Ive heard there is a commuter hotel policy in the works outside of the TA. This Spreads out the pay scales more evenly across all years and keeps bonuses. At first glance I like it (minus a thing or two) need to read it again as i just woke up.


The hotel/qol items are separate from this TA and are NOT on the back burner according to more than one rep. I wouldn't make your decision on this TA based on QOL.

jumppilot71
09-28-2018, 10:05 AM
Low point> Company is willing to offer wheel barrows of cash to people who donít work here.


The 40k bonus for new hires is just a tool in the toolbox. It is not something that's going to just start happening. It's like a "break in case of emergency" thing. It's just there as an option for the company. I say good for new hires if the company decides they need to use it.

trip
09-28-2018, 10:38 AM
Not bad TA. They seemed to fix the stuff that killed the last one....Our 50 seat rates will be as high as XJT 76 seat rates they just signed...

The only diff is the F/Os will stay in the PPS and we all keep the discretionary financial bonus, but wait... bigger bonuses even over the last proposal for newbs!
Same same for El Capitans as far as $$, possibly even less on the hourly scale.

iahflyr
09-28-2018, 12:44 PM
Will someone post the details please?

Skyhawk121
09-28-2018, 12:51 PM
The only diff is the F/Os will stay in the PPS and we all keep the discretionary financial bonus, but wait... bigger bonuses even over the last proposal for newbs!
Same same for El Capitans as far as $$, possibly even less on the hourly scale.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Looks to me that CAs are getting a decent hourly increase and keeping all of the current bonus money.

WesternSkies
09-28-2018, 02:02 PM
Request a Republic pilot to chime in here and let me know if you receive any bonuses ( profit sharing, performance, just-because, etc) of any kind through the year. Thank you.

Rockies Pilot
09-28-2018, 04:23 PM
So anyone actually going to post some details other than saying ďohh yeah itís solidĒ ?!?!?! Every other person on here is asking for details and you guys keep saying itís solid? Please elaborate?

Nevjets
09-28-2018, 04:26 PM
Good luck getting TA documents from Skywest pilots. Itís like pulling teeth. Itís hard and takes a lot of work but eventually it comes out.

hawk21
09-28-2018, 05:17 PM
I'm mostly a fan honestly. Wish they would add some simple things like out of base commuter parking and get a starting point on commuter hotels.


But I won't be upset if it passes. It addresses my concerns with the previous version a few months ago.

Viking6
09-28-2018, 05:32 PM
Request a Republic pilot to chime in here and let me know if you receive any bonuses ( profit sharing, performance, just-because, etc) of any kind through the year. Thank you.

We get a quarterly performance bonus. The max is 300 per quarter, so 1200 per year. I donít believe we have received a Christmas bonus since 2015. They also give an attendance bonus, which the max is 250 per quarter after a year. Pretty hard to get, because even a commuter clause counts.

trip
09-28-2018, 06:05 PM
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Looks to me that CAs are getting a decent hourly increase and keeping all of the current bonus money.

It's the exact same base rate as the last proposal but now includes discretionary financial rewards. Key word "discretionary" rewards.

deets
09-28-2018, 06:07 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/xCD0MMNy/Screen_Shot_2018-09-28_at_8.47.29_PM.png
https://i.postimg.cc/v8K0zhZs/Screen_Shot_2018-09-28_at_8.49.51_PM.png
https://i.postimg.cc/PxxMbvGJ/Screen_Shot_2018-09-28_at_8.51.13_PM.png

Captain 175

zondaracer
09-28-2018, 09:01 PM
They forgot to add the turkey coupon in there. 🦃

Flying Spike
09-28-2018, 09:33 PM
They forgot to add the turkey coupon in there. 🦃

But taste that Koolaid!

Paid2fly
09-28-2018, 10:56 PM
I'm not sure what you are talking about. Looks to me that CAs are getting a decent hourly increase and keeping all of the current bonus money.














3%, not really "decent"...

WesternSkies
09-29-2018, 01:03 AM
We get a quarterly performance bonus. The max is 300 per quarter, so 1200 per year. I donít believe we have received a Christmas bonus since 2015. They also give an attendance bonus, which the max is 250 per quarter after a year. Pretty hard to get, because even a commuter clause counts.

Thank you! I've marked that down as a 2% bump in my compensation comparison.

I hate to say it but this might might be my first yes vote.
I can't find an issue with their math.
Straight hourly rates show me 5-10% (7.5% average) under my Republic counterpart depending on the year through 2022. My basic 6 yearly bonuses wrapped into my average yearly hours worked puts me 2% behind my Republic counterpart in the big important year of 2020.
2019, 2021 and 2022 the bonuses put my real hourly slightly ahead of Republic in those years in general agreement with company math. I think the compensation is closer than what they are saying due to 401k distribution math not being published but even with out that check the math checks out.

sn00p
09-29-2018, 04:23 AM
No vote.

Still deserve better.

rswitz
09-29-2018, 06:37 AM
Yes vote. Can't keep waiting for a damn raise and this looks pretty good. Got bills to pay.

amcnd
09-29-2018, 06:46 AM
Think im a yes. Fixes all the issues of the last one. Puts us close to the top if not at the top. And hope we can go for QOL issues out side of this ďpayĒ TA. Commute hotels, flow, parking, ect.

trip
09-29-2018, 06:55 AM
It should pass easily, F/Oís are hungry, this puts several hundred dollars a month in the kitty, solves a lot of problems.

DirkDiggler
09-29-2018, 07:10 AM
Anyone care to post the DOS pay rates for your TA for both CA and FO?

amcnd
09-29-2018, 07:22 AM
Anyone care to post the DOS pay rates for your TA for both CA and FO?

Look back one page... the pic has the rates on it.

Arliss
09-29-2018, 07:50 AM
I have a question: in the comparison, why does it not list ExpressJet?

Skyguy85
09-29-2018, 07:55 AM
for Captains not FOs

Look back one page... the pic has the rates on it.

Hou757
09-29-2018, 08:03 AM
I have a question: in the comparison, why does it not list ExpressJet?


lol.. noticed the same thing!

rickair7777
09-29-2018, 08:26 AM
Anybody figured out the "catch"? There has to be a catch...

Or maybe they really are worried about another alpa drive.

jacburn
09-29-2018, 09:01 AM
https://www.facebook.com/download/138206447133449/Proposed%20SkyWest%20TA.pdf?hash=AconSPJcjxMLwPvs

Here is the info for the new pay rates.

word302
09-29-2018, 11:17 AM
Think im a yes. Fixes all the issues of the last one. Puts us close to the top if not at the top. And hope we can go for QOL issues out side of this ďpayĒ TA. Commute hotels, flow, parking, ect.

It puts us in 3rd place. Not even close to a yes from me.

Utah
09-29-2018, 11:51 AM
It's pretty much a $10 an hour increase for Captains until you get up to around year 17-18. Then it's a big F.U.

It's only $2 and change if you are topped out.

jpso
09-29-2018, 11:59 AM
It puts us in 3rd place. Not even close to a yes from me.

I'm seeing second over republic. What are you seeing for third?

Melit
09-29-2018, 12:02 PM
I'm seeing second over republic. What are you seeing for third?

He is always angry. Just a troll...

Melit
09-29-2018, 12:06 PM
lol.. noticed the same thing!

Don't be mad you caved in bro.. Its all good..SJS runs deep..

Gone Flying
09-29-2018, 12:34 PM
Pay rates, pay rules, and bonuses totaled I think this will make us the highest compensated FO's at the regionals (especially year 3 and beyond). Captain side puts us close to but not quite to endeavor and republic if bonuses continue as they have been. The 2:1 actual duty rig is a improvement that I think will help on long days. While not perfect (and certainly lacking in QOL improvements) I think this is far ahead of the last proposal and may lead to a yes. we will see.

jacburn
09-29-2018, 12:55 PM
Pay rates, pay rules, and bonuses totaled I think this will make us the highest compensated FO's at the regionals (especially year 3 and beyond).

CommutAir pays FO's $54 for the second year and $57 for the 3rd year pay unless they bypass CA upgrade twice. AND that is without bonuses.

word302
09-29-2018, 12:58 PM
I'm seeing second over republic. What are you seeing for third?

Don't buy that top line on the chart. Think a little harder.

word302
09-29-2018, 12:58 PM
He is always angry. Just a troll...
Now that's funny coming from you.

amcnd
09-29-2018, 01:35 PM
CommutAir pays FO's $54 for the second year and $57 for the 3rd year pay unless they bypass CA upgrade twice. AND that is without bonuses.

That with bonuses factored in?? The website says $37.50 to start.. even at that huge difference for a guy going to a 300 count pilot group with 2 bases 1500 miles from home of 4688 pilots at SkyWest with tons of base options... if i lived in EWR or CLE maybe...

Skyguy85
09-29-2018, 02:06 PM
Link doesnít work

https://www.facebook.com/download/138206447133449/Proposed%20SkyWest%20TA.pdf?hash=AconSPJcjxMLwPvs

Here is the info for the new pay rates.

trip
09-29-2018, 02:14 PM
It's pretty much a $10 an hour increase for Captains until you get up to around year 17-18. Then it's a big F.U.

It's only $2 and change if you are topped out.

Every 20yr CA rate is looking at 4.00hr increase and 2% increase in 401K contribution.