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CWOMaddog
08-21-2018, 06:51 AM
Hi folks,

Unable to find an answer to this after searching throughout this forum.

As an Army helicopter pilot, my flight time totals do not include cross country time, as we didnt log that in the military. Unfortunately I didnt have the foresight to log it manually back then.

Now that I'm considering the regionals, I'm looking for a proper method for estimating my cross country helicopter time to help meet the requirements for an R-ATP. Can this be reasonably done, and how do I go about it?

Thanks in advance!


rickair7777
08-21-2018, 10:49 AM
For the ATP, as you probably know, XC time only needs to involve flying at least 50NM from the point of departure. You are not required to perform a landing >50NM away (that is required for other ratings).

But in your case the safest thing to do would be to first try to identify every flight where there was a documented landing 50+ NM away... that proves how far you traveled, and could be logged without any issues.

If that doesn't get you to the time you need, then look at flights where the mission was some sort of known, commonly performed flight which you know is more than 50NM. Ie, flight to a range, training area, VR route, DZ, etc. That way if it ever became an issue you could presumably find someone to vouch that the sort of flight you're claiming is plausible and common.

If that's still not enough, you might have to apply some sort of estimated factor, but that's pretty iffy and if someone called you on it, it might not hold up to scrutiny. I'd be more comfortable if I could reasonably estimate an amount of XC significantly higher than the minimum required. If you "estimate" 505 hours that might raise eyebrows.

Also... there's no provision in the FAR's for "estimated" flight time. It has to be "logged". Logging it after-the-fact is perfectly legal, as long as it's legit. This makes applying a factor even more questionable... while your factor might be reasonable and conservative, are you going to go back and add XC to each existing logged flight? That might be hard to defend, since it would not be accurate for any given flight, even if the cumulative total is reasonable. Maybe some other army types have been down this road before.

deftone
08-21-2018, 11:10 AM
Perhaps reaching out to recruiters and explaining the situation might be the best way to come up with a solution? Im sure they have seen this situation before and probably have a preferred method for dealing with it?


sherpster
08-21-2018, 06:06 PM
too lazy look it up but it is/was 25nm for helicopters OR any landing other than point of departure which would pretty much mean almost ALL your time was cross country. Just get close man, no one is going to sweat your cross country time in helicopters.

rickair7777
08-21-2018, 06:50 PM
too lazy look it up but it is/was 25nm for helicopters OR any landing other than point of departure which would pretty much mean almost ALL your time was cross country. Just get close man, no one is going to sweat your cross country time in helicopters.

Maybe for a helo ATP.

FW ATP XC must be 50NM, no LDG required.

BeatNavy
08-22-2018, 06:17 AM
Maybe for a helo ATP.

FW ATP XC must be 50NM, no LDG required.

Correct. And many helo guys incorrectly think the 25nm rule applies if the flight was in a helo and that since it was in a helo and exceeded 25nm it then can be used towards an airplane ATP. But it has to do with the rating sought, not the aircraft in which it was flown. I’ve had this argument with a lot of army dudes. In the end I doubt any examiner or the FAA will look for any proof of a flight exceeding 50nm, but knowing what can count and how you counted it might be important if you’re close and someone asks. I had a 50nm column in my digital logbook for my ATP logbook scrub at my regional initial. All they wanted to see was the totals meeting the ATP mins. It wasn’t scrutinized.

For my army flying I kept a leg by leg logbook after flight school. A lot of our instrument training flying met the requirement, so I counted some of that. Obviously counted the longer cross countries we did. Didn’t count any of the local training flights where we hung out in the local area. Counted about 75% of my deployed time. Our AOs were greater than 50nm and I generally traversed the whole AO on most of my flights. I know I had some that didn’t exceed 50 though.

I would estimate your army time however you see fit, have a justification, and obviously use your FW XC time, and it shouldn’t be an issue.

CWOMaddog
08-22-2018, 05:30 PM
Thanks all, I appreciate the input!

OnGlidePath
08-31-2018, 08:33 AM
Thanks all, I appreciate the input!

If you pull your flights from CAFRS, they should include the FROM/TO/TO fields from the -12s. If those points are 50NM apart, then log the time as XC.

Unfortunately, there's no real rule of thumb, as an IP that's doing progressions is going to spend most of their time in the pattern/local area (0% cross country) while someone flying ring routes overseas (nearly 100% cross country) might accrue more.

If you can't backup that your flight was XC, I personally wouldn't log it as such -- especially toward a certificate.

joepilot
09-04-2018, 07:01 AM
Maybe for a helo ATP.

FW ATP XC must be 50NM, no LDG required.

Hi Rick.

Just a hypothetical: If an Army guy already has his helo ATP, then does he still have to meet the fixed wing XC definitions to add-on the FW ATP?

BeatNavy
09-04-2018, 07:36 AM
Hi Rick.

Just a hypothetical: If an Army guy already has his helo ATP, then does he still have to meet the fixed wing XC definitions to add-on the FW ATP?

Yes. 61.165(c) (additional category/class ATP) says you need all the experience in 61.159, or 61.160. If you don’t have 500 XC hours that count toward an airplane ATP, but have 200, you can get a restricted ATP, and when you get 300 more XC hours you can get the restricted turned into a regular ATP with a quick trip to the fsdo.



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