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View Full Version : Propel


WWWD
08-22-2018, 07:16 PM
http://i66.tinypic.com/zlq789.jpg


GuardPolice
08-22-2018, 07:20 PM
Mildly humorous and TIC aside, is the talk at 9E that Propel is a flow program?

wiggy15
08-22-2018, 08:19 PM
Mildly humorous and TIC aside, is the talk at 9E that Propel is a flow program?

No the talk at 9E is college kids with guaranteed jobs at daddy D will be flying right seat to a DGI guy who had to meet higher requirements for the opportunity just to interview for the same position, despite being higher qualified.


GuardPolice
08-22-2018, 08:22 PM
What higher requirements are those?

wiggy15
08-22-2018, 08:27 PM
What higher requirements are those?

18 Months Captain being the main one. Pretty much tacks a 1000 TPIC requirement propel kids don't have plus The interview being done only in seniority order based on that captain requirement whereas propel is based on acceptance to the program, and dgi must do the full 2 day process at once instead of a spoon fed hiring process over several years, and different HR panel interviews. We also have to have a clean training and dicpline record just to get an interview. If they have something happen at their regional, it just delays their move over progress, but they still have their CJO.

GuardPolice
08-22-2018, 08:28 PM
No the talk at 9E is college kids with guaranteed jobs at daddy D will be flying right seat to a DGI guy who had to meet higher requirements for the opportunity just to interview for the same position, despite being higher qualified.


Nothing will be guaranteed until they are sitting in a mainline indoc class. If you think Delta will hand these students a bulletproof plan to get that far without many hoops to jump through then you donít know Delta.

GuardPolice
08-22-2018, 08:34 PM
18 Months Captain being the main one. Pretty much tacks a 1000 TPIC requirement propel kids don't have plus The interview being done only in seniority order based on that captain requirement whereas propel is based on acceptance to the program, and dgi must do the full 2 day process at once instead of a spoon fed hiring process over several years, and different HR panel interviews. We also have to have a clean training and dicpline record just to get an interview. If they have something happen at their regional, it just delays their move over progress, but they still have their CJO.


Itís not a CJO. Itís a Qualified JO. Totally different monsters. Propel students will be expected to upgrade. If they donít they will have to explain why before going to Delta. The hiring process isnít spread over several years. Thatís a gross misconception. They take the full two day interview given a few months apart. Wouldnít that be more stressful? You can also be assured the students that will be selected to interviewed will also have clean records and backgrounds. Again, nothing different than 9E.

They get their QJO and then their career is put under a microscope for a very long time and will have to stay in touch with a Delta pilot mentor. They will also have to interview at the DCI carrier they ultimately fly for. That job wonít just be handed to them also.

I submit their path wonít be any easier than a current 9E pilot. It will simply be different.

scubadiver
08-22-2018, 08:34 PM
Hopefully this will also inspire more of a "flow" to Delta for current pilots. Seems might unfair to have someone come in and flow before a DGI hopefull, since the Propel program says nothing about PIC time, just 1000 121 time. Kinda foul.

wiggy15
08-22-2018, 08:34 PM
Nothing will be guaranteed until they are sitting in a mainline indoc class. If you think Delta will hand these students a bulletproof plan to get that far without many hoops to jump through then you donít know Delta.

True or not, it doesn't change the perception that college kids are getting CJOs with instrument ratings meanwhile plenty of well qualfiied guys are having to meet higher requirements and jump through more difficult hoops to get an interview. And once the propel kids hit the line, I know it'll cause some tension. Delta just kinda threw this out there with no real information and lots of perceptions and misconceptions formed due to lack of information.

I don't really have an opinion on the matter either way honestly, just passing along the 9E sentiment on the flight deck.

scubadiver
08-22-2018, 08:35 PM
Itís not a CJO. Itís a Qualified JO. Totally different monsters. Propel students will be expected to upgrade. If they donít they will have to explain why before going to Delta. The hiring process isnít spread over several years. Thatís a gross misconception. They take the full two day interview given a few months apart. Wouldnít that be more stressful?

They get their QJO and then their career is put under a microscope for a very long time and will have to stay in touch with a Delta pilot mentor. I submit their path wonít be any easier than a current 9E pilot. It will simply be different.

That somewhat levels the playing field I suppose.

GuardPolice
08-22-2018, 08:47 PM
Hopefully this will also inspire more of a "flow" to Delta for current pilots. Seems might unfair to have someone come in and flow before a DGI hopefull, since the Propel program says nothing about PIC time, just 1000 121 time. Kinda foul.


Itís not a flow. Itís disingenuous at best to keep calling it that. AA WO's have flow. If you know anything about this program you should know a flow isnít what this is.

The 1000 121 time requirement as stated on the Propel website simply matches Delta's minimum hiring requirements of 1000 fixed-wing turboprop or turbine time. The students will be given a list of expectations as they gain acceptance into the program. Those expectations will be made known as the student applies and interviews.

scubadiver
08-22-2018, 09:05 PM
That makes sense. I am sure it is going to be a pretty competitive program.

Mesabah
08-23-2018, 08:59 AM
Itís not a CJO. Itís a Qualified JO. Totally different monsters. Propel students will be expected to upgrade. If they donít they will have to explain why before going to Delta. The hiring process isnít spread over several years. Thatís a gross misconception. They take the full two day interview given a few months apart. Wouldnít that be more stressful? You can also be assured the students that will be selected to interviewed will also have clean records and backgrounds. Again, nothing different than 9E.

They get their QJO and then their career is put under a microscope for a very long time and will have to stay in touch with a Delta pilot mentor. They will also have to interview at the DCI carrier they ultimately fly for. That job wonít just be handed to them also.

I submit their path wonít be any easier than a current 9E pilot. It will simply be different.You sound like one of the mentors, but you have a military background. What makes life stressful at a regional, is not knowing where your career is headed. A highly structured Propel program is a massive relief.

Also, 1000hrs 121 time is what is required to even upgrade at a regional. So you would have to explain to Delta that you couldn't upgrade because of the regulations?

100LL
08-23-2018, 09:29 AM
Delta will invite this regional guy to an interview and hire him long before those higher qualified guys even get looked at. Propel is a joke.

bronc
08-23-2018, 09:38 AM
Delta will invite this regional guy to an interview and hire him long before those higher qualified guys even get looked at. Propel is a joke.

I dont think this says anything about this guy's experience, training record, or qualifications so not sure what youre getting at

GuardPolice
08-23-2018, 10:38 AM
You sound like one of the mentors, but you have a military background. What makes life stressful at a regional, is not knowing where your career is headed. A highly structured Propel program is a massive relief.

Also, 1000hrs 121 time is what is required to even upgrade at a regional. So you would have to explain to Delta that you couldn't upgrade because of the regulations?


I am involved in the program but 100% civilian. I was caught in the regional stagnation that started in the Ď06-Ď08 timeframe. Everything about this program should cause me envy and frustration. However, this is about helping those that come after me. I am serving in this program because it is good for Delta and our future.

We wonít take them before they hit 1000 121 time. When they do they will still be expected to upgrade.

flywithjohn
08-23-2018, 10:49 AM
I dont think this says anything about this guy's experience, training record, or qualifications so not sure what youre getting at

I could be wrong, but I think it a was a poor attempt at stereo typing the current student pilot/ CFI generation that would be eligible for propel via the college track. I think it was tied to popular belief of teens and young adults taking stupid photos on various social media platforms. Just a guess though.

bronc
08-23-2018, 01:24 PM
I could be wrong, but I think it a was a poor attempt at stereo typing the current student pilot/ CFI generation that would be eligible for propel via the college track. I think it was tied to popular belief of teens and young adults taking stupid photos on various social media platforms. Just a guess though.

Oh. Thatd be a pretty ignorant rationale

GuardPolice
08-23-2018, 02:07 PM
Oh. Thatd be a pretty ignorant rationale


I read recently that the Millennial generation stopped in 1996 and was replaced by Gen Z or iGen as some call it in 1997. It may surprise some here that Gen Z is more independent self-reliant, cautious, practical, and more averse to student debt. Studies have also shown that they drink less, do drugs less and have less sex than millennials.

All that said, starting as early as next year, college graduates (based on age 22) will not be in the millennial generation. So this stereotype most likely wonít apply to Propel students.

seminolepilot
08-23-2018, 06:32 PM
I read recently that the Millennial generation stopped in 1996 and was replaced by Gen Z or iGen as some call it in 1997. It may surprise some here that Gen Z is more independent self-reliant, cautious, practical, and more averse to student debt. Studies have also shown that they drink less, do drugs less and have less sex than millennials.

All that said, starting as early as next year, college graduates (based on age 22) will not be in the millennial generation. So this stereotype most likely wonít apply to Propel students.

I guess the baby boomers will have to find something else to complain about.

Avroman
08-23-2018, 07:40 PM
Itís not a CJO. Itís a Qualified JO. Totally different monsters. Propel students will be expected to upgrade. If they donít they will have to explain why before going to Delta. The hiring process isnít spread over several years. Thatís a gross misconception. They take the full two day interview given a few months apart. Wouldnít that be more stressful? You can also be assured the students that will be selected to interviewed will also have clean records and backgrounds. Again, nothing different than 9E.

They get their QJO and then their career is put under a microscope for a very long time and will have to stay in touch with a Delta pilot mentor. They will also have to interview at the DCI carrier they ultimately fly for. That job wonít just be handed to them also.

I submit their path wonít be any easier than a current 9E pilot. It will simply be different.

Or they could spend 6 months in the industry, see what a farce Delta is peddling and put out an app at several other quality companies and be gone long before finishing playing Delta's games. I guarantee other major airlines know that they will be dealing with an ever tightening supply of pilots for the foreseeable future, and they are laughing at Delta as much as the rest of us.... well except United, but that's a whole 'nother joke going on.

GuardPolice
08-24-2018, 04:52 AM
Or they could spend 6 months in the industry, see what a farce Delta is peddling and put out an app at several other quality companies and be gone long before finishing playing Delta's games. I guarantee other major airlines know that they will be dealing with an ever tightening supply of pilots for the foreseeable future, and they are laughing at Delta as much as the rest of us.... well except United, but that's a whole 'nother joke going on.

What's the farce being peddle here? It's a miracle they've done this much and it's a tacit admission of how the supply of pilots will be "tightening" as you say. If the 42 month timeline holds true, show me a path to another major or legacy that beats that. Right now nothing does.

As a reminder, Delta doesn't want people who don't want to be here. That's why any Propel student can leave the program without jeopardizing future employment with the company if they feel Delta isn't a good fit for them.

Mesabah
08-24-2018, 06:03 AM
What's the farce being peddle here? It's a miracle they've done this much and it's a tacit admission of how the supply of pilots will be "tightening" as you say. If the 42 month timeline holds true, show me a path to another major or legacy that beats that. Right now nothing does.

As a reminder, Delta doesn't want people who don't want to be here. That's why any Propel student can leave the program without jeopardizing future employment with the company if they feel Delta isn't a good fit for them.
The issue will come three, four years from now, when the massive hiring begins. You need to take these pilots, and hire them at Delta right out of college, bypassing DCI completely. It will cause all kinds of issues sending them to DCI first. Simply put, we can't replace a Propel pilot when they leave, we need pilots with 1000hrs of 121 time. The experience they gain at DCI is so they can upgrade at DCI.

GuardPolice
08-24-2018, 07:03 AM
The issue will come three, four years from now, when the massive hiring begins. You need to take these pilots, and hire them at Delta right out of college, bypassing DCI completely. It will cause all kinds of issues sending them to DCI first. Simply put, we can't replace a Propel pilot when they leave, we need pilots with 1000hrs of 121 time. The experience they gain at DCI is so they can upgrade at DCI.



Propel will be around for a long time. As these students move onto mainline there will be a continuous supply of new pilots behind them. At the same time, DCI will be hiring OTS and from their own initiatives.

RJ4LIFE
08-24-2018, 07:46 AM
The issue will come three, four years from now, when the massive hiring begins. You need to take these pilots, and hire them at Delta right out of college, bypassing DCI completely. It will cause all kinds of issues sending them to DCI first. Simply put, we can't replace a Propel pilot when they leave, we need pilots with 1000hrs of 121 time. The experience they gain at DCI is so they can upgrade at DCI.

I don't know how much more "massive" the hiring is going to get. Delta has been hiring over a thousand a year the last few years but our mandatory retirements will never reach that number, even in the peak years in the middle of the next decade. I suppose some of the other majors (specifically UAL) haven't been at to their max hiring potential but they all have been steadily hiring.

I honestly don't know how much more significantly the hiring practices are going to change from where they are now. The most common background of Delta new hires seems to be 4-year aviation college, CFI or other time building, a few years at a regional, then hired relatively quickly after upgrading (or even prior to upgrading in some instances). With the increasing enrollment numbers at aviation colleges I don't see why this isn't sustainable. There are very few other careers where you can get a BS degree from a non-Ivy League college and have a very realistic chance of making six figures only three to four years out of college.

Long Landing
08-24-2018, 11:06 AM
I don't know how much more "massive" the hiring is going to get. Delta has been hiring over a thousand a year the last few years but our mandatory retirements will never reach that number, even in the peak years in the middle of the next decade. I suppose some of the other majors (specifically UAL) haven't been at to their max hiring potential but they all have been steadily hiring.

I honestly don't know how much more significantly the hiring practices are going to change from where they are now. The most common background of Delta new hires seems to be 4-year aviation college, CFI or other time building, a few years at a regional, then hired relatively quickly after upgrading (or even prior to upgrading in some instances). With the increasing enrollment numbers at aviation colleges I don't see why this isn't sustainable. There are very few other careers where you can get a BS degree from a non-Ivy League college and have a very realistic chance of making six figures only three to four years out of college.

Delta alone has stated they need to hire at least 8,000 over the next 10 years to keep up with growth and retirements. While Delta has been hiring a fair amount of pilots in the past 5 years United and AA have not. In the next 10 years 25-30k mainline hires wouldnít be surprising between the big 6. And with JetBlue and Spirit getting better contracts it makes those places career destinations now too. You wonít make WB CA money there but you also might never make WB CA money at the big 6 either depending on your seniority and personal reasons. The hiring has just begun and it will continue barring another catastrophic event for the next 10+ years.

TalkTurkey
08-24-2018, 12:37 PM
you guys are overthinking and overstating the crap out of this. Now I have stopped giving Delta updates, and that will stay that way, but I will say this. If you can get out of 9E and get to any major airline including LCC which for the most part pay great money now, DO IT. if you're at 9E in hopes of nothing more than moving to Delta, I retract my statements of 1 and 2 years ago, and replace it with; you'll be here a very long time.

Casualinterest
08-24-2018, 04:40 PM
you guys are overthinking and overstating the crap out of this. Now I have stopped giving Delta updates, and that will stay that way, but I will say this. If you can get out of 9E and get to any major airline including LCC which for the most part pay great money now, DO IT. if you're at 9E in hopes of nothing more than moving to Delta, I retract my statements of 1 and 2 years ago, and replace it with; you'll be here a very long time.Oh the foreshadowing...

To your underlying point, I agree that we all need to be taking control of our own destiny. If you can get on with a major or lcc on your own, do it. When people start leaving because they don't want to wait for the Dgi, they'll be forced to make improvements. Every Captain with 6 months in the seat or more should have an app out at DAL, SWA, and JB. Just in case

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Avroman
08-24-2018, 05:54 PM
Propel will be around for a long time. As these students move onto mainline there will be a continuous supply of new pilots behind them. At the same time, DCI will be hiring OTS and from their own initiatives.

The problem is they will upgrade to mainline instead of the left seat here. We will run ever shorter of captains HERE. Yes we have a lot of lifer captains, but there are also many of us looking for any reasonable path out. With the way propel is set up, there will be nobody to replace us captains that leave.

GuardPolice
08-24-2018, 06:14 PM
The problem is they will upgrade to mainline instead of the left seat here. We will run ever shorter of captains HERE. Yes we have a lot of lifer captains, but there are also many of us looking for any reasonable path out. With the way propel is set up, there will be nobody to replace us captains that leave.


You mustíve missed where I said above that Propel Pilots will be expected to upgrade at their DCI carrier. Delta hasnít set a minimum turbine time requirement (beyond the 1000 121 turbine) before they go to mainline. So, Delta doesnít have to accept them at mainline without what they consider to be adequate experience.

wiggy15
08-24-2018, 07:15 PM
You mustíve missed where I said above that Propel Pilots will be expected to upgrade at their DCI carrier. Delta hasnít set a minimum turbine time requirement (beyond the 1000 121 turbine) before they go to mainline. So, Delta doesnít have to accept them at mainline without what they consider to be adequate experience.

But no longer than 42 months with 1000 Turbine Time according to the literature on the website....or is there a hidden asterick on that.

GuardPolice
08-24-2018, 07:22 PM
But no longer than 42 months with 1000 Turbine Time according to the literature on the website....or is there a hidden asterick on that.


42 months is in a perfect world with the current movement. Delta wouldnít back themselves into a corner so, yes, thereís a hidden asterisk on that time as far as I know.

ninerdriver
08-25-2018, 03:21 AM
42 months is in a perfect world with the current movement. Delta wouldnít back themselves into a corner so, yes, thereís a hidden asterisk on that time as far as I know.

It must be pretty well hidden, because there's nothing saying otherwise on the Propel site or on DeltaNet. The DeltaNet FAQ is very clear that folks go to the next new hire class after 42 months of DCI flying.

Mesabah
08-25-2018, 04:48 AM
It must be pretty well hidden, because there's nothing saying otherwise on the Propel site or on DeltaNet. The DeltaNet FAQ is very clear that folks go to the next new hire class after 42 months of DCI flying.
I'm beginning to think it's more about Delta advertising to keep the college aviation programs afloat, rather than finding pilots. This is so much like the EtD, they might as well have just named it that. I don't think Delta will have trouble getting applications for mainline at any point in the future.

GuardPolice
08-25-2018, 04:50 AM
It must be pretty well hidden, because there's nothing saying otherwise on the Propel site or on DeltaNet. The DeltaNet FAQ is very clear that folks go to the next new hire class after 42 months of DCI flying.


Again, and as far as I know, itíll be spelled out in the paperwork the students get during the interview process. They will have to accept the rules and expectations to go forward with the program.

Youíre right. As of now itís 42 months of DCI flying and then off to mainline. Letís do the math. To get 1000 hours should only take 18-24 months at most even if we take into account reserve flying. That still leaves another 18-24months to fly left seat if the upgrade at their DCI carrier is that fast.

Again, these arenít hard numbers and certainly not guarantees. The flexibility in this process is purposeful while trying to give the Propel pilots some semblance of reliable expectations.

GuardPolice
08-25-2018, 04:52 AM
I'm beginning to think it's more about Delta advertising to keep the college aviation programs afloat, rather than finding pilots. This is so much like the EtD, they might as well have just named it that. I don't think Delta will have trouble getting applications for mainline at any point in the future.




All three entities (the schools, DCI, and Delta) will benefit from the program. Sure, and this is me just spitballing, one or two may benefit more. A lot about this program has to evolve. Suffice it say, though, there are many great people working to make it a success.

Avroman
08-25-2018, 03:22 PM
I'm beginning to think it's more about Delta advertising to keep the college aviation programs afloat, rather than finding pilots. This is so much like the EtD, they might as well have just named it that. I don't think Delta will have trouble getting applications for mainline at any point in the future.

They sure as heck won't be getting an app from me, I can assure you of that.

Myfingershurt
08-27-2018, 07:07 AM
I don't think Delta will have trouble getting applications for mainline at any point in the future.

I donít think theyíre worried about getting apps. Theyíre worried about getting the right apps. I know 99% of the apps they get meet the minimum qualifications, but if Delta hired anybody that met Mom quals they couldnít be so picky with who they hired. I think theyíre using this program as a sort of indoctrination to the Delta way of life. Theyíre figuring if they can get kids young before theyíve formed any sort of bad airline bahaviors then they can mold them in their image. Sort of like the military attempts to do with basic training. Except with propel, basic training last for nearly four years.

Avroman
08-28-2018, 09:28 PM
I donít think theyíre worried about getting apps. Theyíre worried about getting the right apps. I know 99% of the apps they get meet the minimum qualifications, but if Delta hired anybody that met Mom quals they couldnít be so picky with who they hired. I think theyíre using this program as a sort of indoctrination to the Delta way of life. Theyíre figuring if they can get kids young before theyíve formed any sort of bad airline bahaviors then they can mold them in their image. Sort of like the military attempts to do with basic training. Except with propel, basic training last for nearly four years.


Then they better find a way to manipulate crew pairings REALLY WELL. Cause otherwise these kids are going to get a special kind of OE on a lot of their trips from some of our old timers.