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View Full Version : Brake Drop Delta requirement


Check Complete
08-26-2018, 06:07 PM
I'm with SkyWest, very senior. This is not a slam on any airline or anybody.

We recently got a new requirement that we can't drop the parking brake until we have been cleared to push. For some domiciles there are typically 10 minute delays to push, thus this is a big pay cut. We have no recourse to battle this as we have zilch representation.

My question for this group is this new rule been put to your pilots and what are your union reps able to do about it?

It was reported that your MEC told your management "NO" to what is basically a pay cut? This being said I'm presuming your time begins at parking brake drop?

Just looking for some info to pass along to the SkyWest pilot group.

Again this is not a jab at anybody or any pilot group.

Thanks for any info!

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TillerTemptress
08-26-2018, 06:54 PM
I'm with SkyWest, very senior. This is not a slam on any airline or anybody.

We recently got a new requirement that we can't drop the parking brake until we have been cleared to push. For some domiciles there are typically 10 minute delays to push, thus this is a big pay cut. We have no recourse to battle this as we have zilch representation.

My question for this group is this new rule been put to your pilots and what are your union reps able to do about it?

It was reported that your MEC told your management "NO" to what is basically a pay cut? This being said I'm presuming your time begins at parking brake drop?

Just looking for some info to pass along to the SkyWest pilot group.

Again this is not a jab at anybody or any pilot group.

Thanks for any info!

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Our pay begins at brake drop technically, but most legs are so overblocked it really doesn't matter much as I don't often overblock. But I drop it when we talk to the ramp crew and everybody's ready. Nobody has said zilch to us though, our FOM has long said you're supposed to have push clearance, but I figure if we're ready to go, I'm gonna drop it, plus a lot of stations have lektro tugs anyway so our FOM even has an exception for that.

week
08-26-2018, 07:27 PM
From what Iíve seen, at cpz we drop it ASAP, provided itís safe to drop the brake for one second while holding the foot brakes, all the doors are shut, and itís not more than 10 minutes prior to scheduled out time.

But in reality, usually I just stare anxiously at the ticking UTC clock as it hits D-0 and pray the rest of the crew will slam the door shut and slap the brake down in time to ever so slightly reduce the chances I get furloughed/downgraded in 2020. Either that or just look sadly out the window as we work our way into D+2 for some trivial and preventable reason. (Assuming our inbound plane wasnít 2 hours late)

But in all seriousness, I think at CPZ we drop the lever as soon as we safely can, and thatís the way it will stay regardless of what the company wants. We all want to keep our jobs here IMHO


sMFer
08-26-2018, 08:35 PM
I'm no longer at CP, but when I was a CA there, I'd drop the brake once I heard the FA arm the door. As soon as the box registered an out time, I'd set the brake. It's ridiculous that the airline feels you shouldn't be getting paid in an enclosed tube, with an engine (APU) running and a multitude of issues could arise. Screw that. I did it 100% of the time, even on upgrade OE and never heard a peep.

Aviator147
08-27-2018, 03:52 AM
I'm no longer at CP, but when I was a CA there, I'd drop the brake once I heard the FA arm the door. As soon as the box registered an out time, I'd set the brake. It's ridiculous that the airline feels you shouldn't be getting paid in an enclosed tube, with an engine (APU) running and a multitude of issues could arise. Screw that. I did it 100% of the time, even on upgrade OE and never heard a peep.

This! On AA the gate agents would sometimes close even 15 early, and guess what, we got paid for every second, and also never heard a word. Do your thing and get paid!

TheFly
08-27-2018, 04:24 AM
I'm with SkyWest, very senior. This is not a slam on any airline or anybody.

We recently got a new requirement that we can't drop the parking brake until we have been cleared to push. For some domiciles there are typically 10 minute delays to push, thus this is a big pay cut. We have no recourse to battle this as we have zilch representation.

My question for this group is this new rule been put to your pilots and what are your union reps able to do about it?

It was reported that your MEC told your management "NO" to what is basically a pay cut? This being said I'm presuming your time begins at parking brake drop?

Just looking for some info to pass along to the SkyWest pilot group.

Again this is not a jab at anybody or any pilot group.

Thanks for any info!

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Is this for our DL flying only? I havenít heard anything about this.

Rogdixon
08-27-2018, 06:39 AM
Itís also important to note that SkyWest gets paid differently than Compass does. Historical average Vs. Block or better. If everyone played by the rules and does not drop the brake until push clearance received it would hurt OO paychecks more than CP.

PanchoBarnes
08-27-2018, 03:37 PM
This used to be policy here but almost no one followed it. You would sit at the Delta gates in lax for 30 minutes sometimes waiting for a push clearance.

Like others say itís now allowed 10 early. Delta says donít leave more than 5 early into a key station.

If everyone is on board, I say close em up and letís go!

Fr8Thrust
08-28-2018, 12:17 AM
Agent has closed-out the flight + cockpit is ready + cabin is secure = Clear to Close! Trigger the Out time the second L1 is armed. Nobody enforces the early departure guidance, because CPZ makes more $ in On-Time than they do in paying Overblocks.

Plus whatís the point in sitting there when the sponsor airline has already closed out the flight. Customers care about A0 and flying fast. Sometimes you have to drop early in order to make A0. D0 is nice in a perfect cubicle...I mean world.

BobbyLeeSwagger
08-28-2018, 03:30 AM
Agent has closed-out the flight + cockpit is ready + cabin is secure = Clear to Close! Trigger the Out time the second L1 is armed. Nobody enforces the early departure guidance, because CPZ makes more $ in On-Time than they do in paying Overblocks.

Plus whatís the point in sitting there when the sponsor airline has already closed out the flight. Customers care about A0 and flying fast. Sometimes you have to drop early in order to make A0. D0 is nice in a perfect cubicle...I mean world.

If I know there is gonna be long flow time, I try to block out as early as possible. The intent behind the block out rules is to not create gate space issues downline (I think). Like you said, if the gate agent is ready to close flight out, then let's go. I think the block out times haven't been enforced because it works in everyone's favor when done well. Its not a problem till it's a problem.

Read file in 5. 4. 3. 2. 1....

TruNorth
08-28-2018, 12:04 PM
I've been at Compass for a while. Our Out time starts on brake release. Our AOM dictates that we release the brake once we have a push clearance from ATC.

There was a huge compliance push here a few years ago because apparently there were Delta folks sitting in the tower in LAX timing the difference between when an aircraft indicated it had blocked out (which I guess is transmitted automatically to the ramp tower in LAX so they can see what gate is open) and when the same aircraft called for the push clearance. I believe they even hauled some Captains in for section 19s.

It still failed. We pretty much drop the brake when we're ready to go and everything is closed up (it helps that 99% of the time this will be indistinguishable from following the AOM guidance). My one caveat that I do is I wait for the FO to make his first attempt at contact with ATC to request a push clearance. Then I drop the brake and if ATC wants to tell us to hold for 30 minutes, that's their deal.

PanchoBarnes
08-28-2018, 01:31 PM
I've been at Compass for a while. Our Out time starts on brake release. Our AOM dictates that we release the brake once we have a push clearance from ATC.

There was a huge compliance push here a few years ago because apparently there were Delta folks sitting in the tower in LAX timing the difference between when an aircraft indicated it had blocked out (which I guess is transmitted automatically to the ramp tower in LAX so they can see what gate is open) and when the same aircraft called for the push clearance. I believe they even hauled some Captains in for section 19s.

It still failed. We pretty much drop the brake when we're ready to go and everything is closed up (it helps that 99% of the time this will be indistinguishable from following the AOM guidance). My one caveat that I do is I wait for the FO to make his first attempt at contact with ATC to request a push clearance. Then I drop the brake and if ATC wants to tell us to hold for 30 minutes, that's their deal.

Iím pretty sure it no longer says this. You can release it before push clearance. AOM only talks about communicating with the tug crew

adler
08-30-2018, 05:19 AM
Lektro Tug

FlytheSky
08-30-2018, 07:00 AM
The real answer "Saved by the Lektro."

Also, just say "brakes released, you're cleared to capture if you need to." Works every time. :D

PanchoBarnes
08-30-2018, 09:14 PM
The real answer "Saved by the Lektro."

Also, just say "brakes released, you're cleared to capture if you need to." Works every time. :D
Lol man I say that also. All rugs look like a lektro to me. Never received any guidance on how to tell them apart

FlytheSky
08-31-2018, 07:23 AM
Lol man I say that also. All rugs look like a lektro to me. Never received any guidance on how to tell them apart

Exactly. And besides, even if they provide guidance, I hardly ever see the tug before we're actually pushing back and we're turning (or when the tug is pulling away if it was a Lektro). The day they said you have to wear the vest to do all walk arounds is the day I stopped doing them.

Ulramar
10-11-2018, 02:31 PM
The real answer "Saved by the Lektro."

Also, just say "brakes released, you're cleared to capture if you need to." Works every time. :D

Ramp guy here.

Was wondering why I kept hearing that!

VIRotate
10-11-2018, 07:01 PM
Ramp guy here.

Was wondering why I kept hearing that!

The if youíre asked about a lectro tug, the answer is always yes! 😂

poutine
10-12-2018, 06:55 PM
Like others say itís now allowed 10 early. Delta says donít leave more than 5 early into a key station.

If everyone is on board, I say close em up and letís go!

Bren dropping 15-20mins early and never get problem.



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