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Pedro4President
12-06-2018, 04:28 PM
Thatís a pretty dangerous game for them to play though. I mean you are correct but I would be surprised if they used it in all but the most grievous cases.

I mean think about it. They tell a guy he canít flow because his kids got sick a couple too many times his last year here and now you expect him to provide top notch service?

Nah, not going to happen. The company wants us to flow, itís in their best interest in all aspects. Keeps pay down, helps recruitment, keeps the pilot group junior and easier to control etc. just because they donít flow at the rate we think they should doesnít mean they donít want us to flow.

But it doesn't mean there won't be the sacrificial lamb here and there when those guys call out sick a few weeks before flowing.


UncreativeUser
12-07-2018, 03:03 AM
But it doesn't mean there won't be the sacrificial lamb here and there when those guys call out sick a few weeks before flowing.



Those sacrificial lambs prolly will be the ones that play with fire and lose the game


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Cyio
12-07-2018, 03:41 AM
Those sacrificial lambs prolly will be the ones that play with fire and lose the game


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Yeah exactly, like I said in some obvious cases of misuse or abuse, I can see them doing this, but to the average pilot here that works when they can and calls off a normal amount of sick calls, this shouldn't be an issue.

It would just hurt the moral of the whole pilot group if they started doing this as it would shed huge doubt for all the pilots on if they could flow or not. Plus, it opens up the door to huge safety and regulatory issues in that pilots may be less likely to call off sick, fatigued or FMLA due to fear that at any moment, they could lose the flow. This could lead to accidents, delays, training failures, potential lawsuits etc.

I totally understand it is in their power to do so, I just dont see any upside to them doing it other than to punish grievous abusers of the system.


UncreativeUser
12-07-2018, 03:53 AM
Yeah exactly, like I said in some obvious cases of misuse or abuse, I can see them doing this, but to the average pilot here that works when they can and calls off a normal amount of sick calls, this shouldn't be an issue.



It would just hurt the moral of the whole pilot group if they started doing this as it would shed huge doubt for all the pilots on if they could flow or not. Plus, it opens up the door to huge safety and regulatory issues in that pilots may be less likely to call off sick, fatigued or FMLA due to fear that at any moment, they could lose the flow. This could lead to accidents, delays, training failures, potential lawsuits etc.



I totally understand it is in their power to do so, I just dont see any upside to them doing it other than to punish grievous abusers of the system.



Couldnít agree more. In fact I didnít even think about how guys not calling in sick in fear of losing the flow of how dangerous that could be even in itself, that would totally push pilots to their limits and if you get a CA and a FO doing that... those are ingredients for disaster


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NoValueAviator
12-07-2018, 04:20 AM
Lots of guys fly sick here.

Whoever decided pilots shouldn't get sick as often as the rest of the world wasn't thinking about commuters, who are locked in a metal tube for 4+ hours every couple days with people with extreme cases of highly infectious diseases.

Cyio
12-08-2018, 09:41 AM
Lots of guys fly sick here.

Whoever decided pilots shouldn't get sick as often as the rest of the world wasn't thinking about commuters, who are locked in a metal tube for 4+ hours every couple days with people with extreme cases of highly infectious diseases.

Well that could be said about anything. Doctors/nurses and office workers are all trapped around people and sicklies all day as well and I am sure they get limited amounts of sick time as well.

I mean we do get like 3-4 call offs a year before anyone starts to take notice and you can miss a lot of work with each one. I get it, people get sick, some more than others, but there has to be some checks and balance otherwise people wouldn't ever show up.

I am NOT a company guy by any means, but I do try and see things from a point relative objectivity and common sense.

Voski
12-16-2018, 12:44 PM
Any more classes this month?

I'm tracking there's two classes in January, the 7th & 14th, possibly a third on either the 21st or 28th.

dera
12-16-2018, 01:35 PM
Any more classes this month?

I'm tracking there's two classes in January, the 7th & 14th, possibly a third on either the 21st or 28th.

No more this month, should be 3 in January.

Lots of DFL/OFL with a sprinkle of OCC too, I'm guessing.

Varsity
12-19-2018, 07:10 AM
Are hotels provided for the duration of training or just the specific modules? IE: Forced to leave DFW on 'home based CBT's week'?

pitchattitude
12-19-2018, 07:26 AM
Are hotels provided for the duration of training or just the specific modules? IE: Forced to leave DFW on 'home based CBT's week'?You can stay for the CBTs, but it is not automatic. You must coordinate. And do so early. It can take them a while on this stuff.

Pedro4President
12-19-2018, 08:24 AM
Are hotels provided for the duration of training or just the specific modules? IE: Forced to leave DFW on 'home based CBT's week'?

Also you are gaurenteed access to Envoy HQ for CBTs. You can stay there as late as midnight if I recall. You just have to coordinate it with HQ.

dera
12-19-2018, 08:14 PM
Our class hotels were extended as default for the CBTs. If you didn't need it, you had to tell them.

use2fly
12-20-2018, 06:49 AM
Well that could be said about anything. Doctors/nurses and office workers are all trapped around people and sicklies all day as well and I am sure they get limited amounts of sick time as well.

I mean we do get like 3-4 call offs a year before anyone starts to take notice and you can miss a lot of work with each one. I get it, people get sick, some more than others, but there has to be some checks and balance otherwise people wouldn't ever show up.

I am NOT a company guy by any means, but I do try and see things from a point relative objectivity and common sense.

The difference is those other people can take medicine for their symptoms.

moon
12-20-2018, 09:08 AM
The difference is those other people can take medicine for their symptoms.

They also don't get disciplined for using 6 days of sick time a day at a time through a rolling calendar year.

Cyio
12-21-2018, 04:39 AM
They also don't get disciplined for using 6 days of sick time a day at a time through a rolling calendar year.

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that if you use 6 total days of sick time you will get punished here. If that is what you are saying, you are incorrect.

Typically, the company understands people get sick and encourages you to call in. Each of these sick calls can call off an entire trip worth four days, equalling 12 days of sick time if you use them all. Heck even your fourth sick call just gets you questioned about what is going on.

I am not saying it should be abused, nor am I saying it is the best system, but it is far from punitive if you use them as needed for real illness. Anything needed about that amount may qualify you for FMLA and that is another topic altogether.

One thing that does irritate me however is that our system encourages you to miss more work than is always needed. For example, sometimes you just have a stomach malady and need a day off work so as to not destroy the flight deck, however, with our system, a call off counts as a sick call regardless of how many days you use. This leads to short term illness causing a full trip drop, because hey, if I am going to get nailed with a sick call I might as well make the best of it.

So while I agree it needs work, it certainly isn't a call to the CP office just because you get sick a few times a year.

moon
12-21-2018, 06:08 AM
If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that if you use 6 total days of sick time you will get punished here. If that is what you are saying, you are incorrect.

Typically, the company understands people get sick and encourages you to call in. Each of these sick calls can call off an entire trip worth four days, equalling 12 days of sick time if you use them all. Heck even your fourth sick call just gets you questioned about what is going on.

I am not saying it should be abused, nor am I saying it is the best system, but it is far from punitive if you use them as needed for real illness. Anything needed about that amount may qualify you for FMLA and that is another topic altogether.

One thing that does irritate me however is that our system encourages you to miss more work than is always needed. For example, sometimes you just have a stomach malady and need a day off work so as to not destroy the flight deck, however, with our system, a call off counts as a sick call regardless of how many days you use. This leads to short term illness causing a full trip drop, because hey, if I am going to get nailed with a sick call I might as well make the best of it.

So while I agree it needs work, it certainly isn't a call to the CP office just because you get sick a few times a year.

Are you sure about that. Pretty sure I remember from the handout I was given by the CP office at 4 you get coach and counsel and beyond that you get step advisories. Which if you want to flow are a bit of a hindrance.

HobGoblin
12-21-2018, 07:12 AM
Are you sure about that. Pretty sure I remember from the handout I was given by the CP office at 4 you get coach and counsel and beyond that you get step advisories. Which if you want to flow are a bit of a hindrance.

Post it and say which CPO you got it from. There is not a handout that says if you call in sick more than 4 days you get step letters.


Also the policy has shifted from just sick calls to also number of days, as the previous poster was lamenting. If you call in sick for 4 4 day trips, itís worse than 4 individual 1 day calls.

moon
12-21-2018, 11:51 AM
Post it and say which CPO you got it from. There is not a handout that says if you call in sick more than 4 days you get step letters.


Also the policy has shifted from just sick calls to also number of days, as the previous poster was lamenting. If you call in sick for 4 4 day trips, itís worse than 4 individual 1 day calls.

There was when I came through the CPO after my first sick call years ago. I don't save stuff like that but it existed. Denise handed it to me. I believe Eric was chief at the time.

If it's shifted then it's shifted, but going off what I was told I wouldn't go tempting fate with more than 3 sick calls.

Cyio
12-21-2018, 12:40 PM
There was when I came through the CPO after my first sick call years ago. I don't save stuff like that but it existed. Denise handed it to me. I believe Eric was chief at the time.

If it's shifted then it's shifted, but going off what I was told I wouldn't go tempting fate with more than 3 sick calls.
Denise doesnít work here anymore. Clearly for more reasons than one.

AeroEnvoy
12-21-2018, 12:40 PM
There was when I came through the CPO after my first sick call years ago. I don't save stuff like that but it existed. Denise handed it to me. I believe Eric was chief at the time.

If it's shifted then it's shifted, but going off what I was told I wouldn't go tempting fate with more than 3 sick calls.

I got called in to the CPO after my fourth sick call in 12 months. It didn't seem punitive, the CP only asked me if I required FMLA and that the meeting was just a formality. This was in ORD btw.

wiz5422
12-21-2018, 02:02 PM
I got called in to the CPO after my fourth sick call in 12 months. It didn't seem punitive, the CP only asked me if I required FMLA and that the meeting was just a formality. This was in ORD btw.

Remember next time To have a union representation with you when talk the chief pilots.

Weekendwarrior2
12-22-2018, 07:58 PM
Post it and say which CPO you got it from. There is not a handout that says if you call in sick more than 4 days you get step letters.





Also the policy has shifted from just sick calls to also number of days, as the previous poster was lamenting. If you call in sick for 4 4 day trips, itís worse than 4 individual 1 day calls.



If you go to the envoy websiteó> flightó> flight ops lineó>there is a link under the references for the ORD new hire base day. Talks about sick expectations. Total BS and funny how itís the only base that seems to take sick calls so seriously. I donít blame people for being afraid to call out sick on probation if theyíre ORD based after reading that. ďWhile on probation, expect to be called in for every occurrence.Ē GMAFB....because probationary pilots get sick more than non-probationary? Obviously some people abuse the system but any competent management would deal with that on a case by case basis instead of trying to instill a punitive culture on everyone for calling out sick.

Cyio
12-22-2018, 08:50 PM
If you go to the envoy websiteó> flightó> flight ops lineó>there is a link under the references for the ORD new hire base day. Talks about sick expectations. Total BS and funny how itís the only base that seems to take sick calls so seriously. I donít blame people for being afraid to call out sick on probation if theyíre ORD based after reading that. ďWhile on probation, expect to be called in for every occurrence.Ē GMAFB....because probationary pilots get sick more than non-probationary? Obviously some people abuse the system but any competent management would deal with that on a case by case basis instead of trying to instill a punitive culture on everyone for calling out sick.
I wonder when that was written? It may be a ďDeniseĒ special as she was know for having a vindictive personality. Anyway, it is what it is. Donít abuse the policy and everything will fine. If you get called in, just ask them what they think the FAA would think and leave it at that.

Weekendwarrior2
12-22-2018, 08:54 PM
I wonder when that was written? It may be a ďDeniseĒ special as she was know for having a vindictive personality. Anyway, it is what it is. Donít abuse the policy and everything will fine. If you get called in, just ask them what they think the FAA would think and leave it at that.



Agreed, it shouldnít be a problem for 95% of the pilot group.

bigtime209
12-22-2018, 09:32 PM
If you go to the envoy website—> flight—> flight ops line—>there is a link under the references for the ORD new hire base day. Talks about sick expectations. Total BS and funny how it’s the only base that seems to take sick calls so seriously. I don’t blame people for being afraid to call out sick on probation if they’re ORD based after reading that. “While on probation, expect to be called in for every occurrence.” GMAFB....because probationary pilots get sick more than non-probationary? Obviously some people abuse the system but any competent management would deal with that on a case by case basis instead of trying to instill a punitive culture on everyone for calling out sick.

That is definitely an ORD thing. Any other base, as long as you clear your sick call you'll be fine.

And by the way, there was an arbitration awhile back that ruled in the pilot group's favor that there cannot be an arbitrary number of sick calls that results in disciplinary action from the company. If you feel like this is happening, contact your rep.

moon
12-23-2018, 02:54 AM
If you go to the envoy websiteó> flightó> flight ops lineó>there is a link under the references for the ORD new hire base day. Talks about sick expectations. Total BS and funny how itís the only base that seems to take sick calls so seriously. I donít blame people for being afraid to call out sick on probation if theyíre ORD based after reading that. ďWhile on probation, expect to be called in for every occurrence.Ē GMAFB....because probationary pilots get sick more than non-probationary? Obviously some people abuse the system but any competent management would deal with that on a case by case basis instead of trying to instill a punitive culture on everyone for calling out sick.

Wow good job finding that! I'm pretty sure it was an Envoy policy not a "Denise Policy". They can't fire you for using all the sick time you have available, but they can give you step advisories. Hopefully everyone right and they are changing the policy culturally, but until I see it documented in writing I wouldn't trust it.

NoValueAviator
12-23-2018, 05:58 AM
Nieder rolled into my indoc class and said outright that if you have more than a couple sick calls in your first year, "don't expect to make it off probation, because attendance never improves in the second year." The toxic approach to sick calls is not exactly a big secret here.

Cyio
12-23-2018, 06:47 AM
Nieder rolled into my indoc class and said outright that if you have more than a couple sick calls in your first year, "don't expect to make it off probation, because attendance never improves in the second year." The toxic approach to sick calls is not exactly a big secret here.
I had three on probation and Iím still here. No letter or counsel.

Voski
12-23-2018, 10:28 AM
What is the likelihood of largely ERJ-175 classes in January? Theyíre so overstaffed on the 145 and 700, coupled with the FO seatlock policy + new jets inbound, I would think we might see all 175 classes ... but thatís pure speculation.

dera
12-23-2018, 10:38 AM
What is the likelihood of largely ERJ-175 classes in January? They’re so overstaffed on the 145 and 700, coupled with the FO seatlock policy + new jets inbound, I would think we might see all 175 classes ... but that’s pure speculation.

I bet it's 2 100% 175 and 1 mixed fleet class. I doubt there will be any CRJ slots apart from OCC.

BigZ
12-23-2018, 12:39 PM
I bet it's 2 100% 175 and 1 mixed fleet class. I doubt there will be any CRJ slots apart from OCC.

CRJ FO slots, like all the great things in life, happen unexpectedly.

NoValueAviator
12-23-2018, 01:18 PM
I had three on probation and Iím still here. No letter or counsel.

Well, I assumed at the time and still now believe it was mostly a scare tactic. That doesn't mean they aren't advocating a nasty and unrealistic approach to employee sick calls from the very top.

dera
12-23-2018, 01:18 PM
CRJ FO slots, like all the great things in life, happen unexpectedly.

Like all great things, such as a serious heart attack, or a stroke...

BigZ
12-23-2018, 08:27 PM
Like all great things, such as a serious heart attack, or a stroke...

Haters gonna hate

NoValueAviator
12-24-2018, 07:24 AM
I'll say this for the CRJ, the guys on it are genuinely proud of their jet, unlike the 175 guys who insecurely badmouth the plane to try to make their job sound harder or 145 guys who know what they fly is a POS.

ENH017
12-24-2018, 08:09 AM
I'll say this for the CRJ, the guys on it are genuinely proud of their jet, unlike the 175 guys who insecurely badmouth the plane to try to make their job sound harder or 145 guys who know what they fly is a POS.

And together we will be laughing 4.5-9 years from now when we're flying real sized planes, right?

bh539
12-24-2018, 09:07 AM
And together we will be laughing 4.5-9 years from now when we're flying real sized planes, right?

[citation needed]

in2deep
12-24-2018, 09:14 AM
And together we will be laughing 4.5-9 years from now when we're flying real sized planes, right?

Yeah man. Its all about chasing those real sized plane jobs.

Cyio
12-24-2018, 11:53 AM
I'll say this for the CRJ, the guys on it are genuinely proud of their jet, unlike the 175 guys who insecurely badmouth the plane to try to make their job sound harder or 145 guys who know what they fly is a POS.
I havenít flown with anyone that insecurely badmouths the E75. In fact most genuinely enjoy flying it. Sure it wonít do .80 all the way to cruise like the crj but what does except maybe the 757. Anyway, a plane is a plane at the end of the day. CRJ just is a tough one to be on at this airline right now is all.

Smutter
12-24-2018, 12:41 PM
There was when I came through the CPO after my first sick call years ago. I don't save stuff like that but it existed. Denise handed it to me. I believe Eric was chief at the time.

If it's shifted then it's shifted, but going off what I was told I wouldn't go tempting fate with more than 3 sick calls.
Eric was a special cpo, even by ord standards

HobGoblin
12-24-2018, 05:58 PM
If you go to the envoy websiteó> flightó> flight ops lineó>there is a link under the references for the ORD new hire base day. Talks about sick expectations. Total BS and funny how itís the only base that seems to take sick calls so seriously. I donít blame people for being afraid to call out sick on probation if theyíre ORD based after reading that. ďWhile on probation, expect to be called in for every occurrence.Ē GMAFB....because probationary pilots get sick more than non-probationary? Obviously some people abuse the system but any competent management would deal with that on a case by case basis instead of trying to instill a punitive culture on everyone for calling out sick.

Hmm, I donít see what youíre talking about. I donít think the sick policy varies base by base either.

NoValueAviator
12-26-2018, 05:12 AM
I havenít flown with anyone that insecurely badmouths the E75. In fact most genuinely enjoy flying it. Sure it wonít do .80 all the way to cruise like the crj but what does except maybe the 757. Anyway, a plane is a plane at the end of the day. CRJ just is a tough one to be on at this airline right now is all.

When they jumpseat with us on the 145 itís no end of ďa/tís are a liability, coupled VNAV is a liability, itís trying to kill/overspeed me!Ē

Cyio
12-26-2018, 05:39 AM
When they jumpseat with us on the 145 itís no end of ďa/tís are a liability, coupled VNAV is a liability, itís trying to kill/overspeed me!Ē

Thatís nonsense and they clearly donít understand the plane, or try to think they know more than the engineers.

I see it all the time with low time pilots on it. They try and reinvent the wheel and fly it like the 145 or crj, both of which it is not. The other issue is a lack of understanding on how the vnav works. The autothrottles work great. It really all comes down to knowledge and awareness. If I ignore conventional throttles they to will screw me, same with these.

The systems are designed to reduce the workload of the pilots, not completely remove it. Anyway rant over. Lol.

MD-11Loader
12-26-2018, 05:49 AM
Is there any backlog for captain IOE on the 175 right now? The 145 seems to be humming right along.

jake cutter
12-26-2018, 06:54 AM
When they jumpseat with us on the 145 itís no end of ďa/tís are a liability, coupled VNAV is a liability, itís trying to kill/overspeed me!Ē


I only ever ďbad mouthĒ the 175ís flying characteristics in front of the 145 guys because Iíd still like to remain friends with them. I steer away from the real 175 problems, like MELíd WiFi on the three leg DCA hop, the sh!tty breakfast plates that Canadian catering sometimes puts on board, and having to don the O2 masks in the cockpit after someoneís double-flush grundle in the front lav.

ParkingatMIA
12-26-2018, 07:58 AM
I only ever ďbad mouthĒ the 175ís flying characteristics in front of the 145 guys because Iíd still like to remain friends with them. I steer away from the real 175 problems, like MELíd WiFi on the three leg DCA hop, the sh!tty breakfast plates that Canadian catering sometimes puts on board, and having to don the O2 masks in the cockpit after someoneís double-flush grundle in the front lav.

Just tell it like it is, the 175 fixed most of the problems with the 145. I miss my baby Boeing.

Cyio
12-26-2018, 09:48 AM
Is there any backlog for captain IOE on the 175 right now? The 145 seems to be humming right along.

I have heard the 4 month number thrown around. Pretty sure the October upgrades are just now hitting training in January.

MD-11Loader
12-26-2018, 09:57 AM
I have heard the 4 month number thrown around. Pretty sure the October upgrades are just now hitting training in January.

Yeah but what about IOE?

NoValueAviator
12-26-2018, 10:28 AM
I only ever “bad mouth” the 175’s flying characteristics in front of the 145 guys because I’d still like to remain friends with them. I steer away from the real 175 problems, like MEL’d WiFi on the three leg DCA hop, the sh!tty breakfast plates that Canadian catering sometimes puts on board, and having to don the O2 masks in the cockpit after someone’s double-flush grundle in the front lav.

lol excellent

meanwhile, on the 145, I put a 1/2" gash in my scalp with something on the overhead panel while trying to get in my seat. blood everywhere. it's designed for 5'7" max.

Cyio
12-26-2018, 11:26 AM
I only ever ďbad mouthĒ the 175ís flying characteristics in front of the 145 guys because Iíd still like to remain friends with them. I steer away from the real 175 problems, like MELíd WiFi on the three leg DCA hop, the sh!tty breakfast plates that Canadian catering sometimes puts on board, and having to don the O2 masks in the cockpit after someoneís double-flush grundle in the front lav.

Lol that is awesome. Highly accurate as well.

BillyBob1
12-27-2018, 08:48 PM
I'm a new hire starting class in mid Jan, looking for some advice if anyone can help me out or point me to the correct forum. I'm trying to put a list of aircraft/locations together in case I have options when I go to indoc. My goals are to fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, just looking for some insight as to what my best options are. Right now my #1,2,3 choices would be 175 ORD, 145 ORD, 145 LGA. I would like to be in DFW but the upgrade times are a lot longer from what I understand. My thinking is that the 175 will see movement over the next few years with the increasing fleet size but not sure if that is accurate. I read in this forum that there were some 175 only classes, is that still happening? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

dera
12-27-2018, 09:18 PM
I'm a new hire starting class in mid Jan, looking for some advice if anyone can help me out or point me to the correct forum. I'm trying to put a list of aircraft/locations together in case I have options when I go to indoc. My goals are to fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, just looking for some insight as to what my best options are. Right now my #1,2,3 choices would be 175 ORD, 145 ORD, 145 LGA. I would like to be in DFW but the upgrade times are a lot longer from what I understand. My thinking is that the 175 will see movement over the next few years with the increasing fleet size but not sure if that is accurate. I read in this forum that there were some 175 only classes, is that still happening? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

Fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, your #1 and #2 choices should be, #1 175 in any base, and #2 175 in any base.
There is no #3.

BigZ
12-27-2018, 09:24 PM
Fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, your #1 and #2 choices should be, #1 175 in any base, and #2 175 in any base.
There is no #3.

Just don't forget that you will be upgrading into a 145 more likely than not.
The downside of flying as much as possible and upgrading as soon as possible is that you are too junior to hold a 175.

Voski
12-27-2018, 09:29 PM
Just don't forget that you will be upgrading into a 145 more likely than not.
The downside of flying as much as possible and upgrading as soon as possible is that you are too junior to hold a 175.

If heís forced to upgrade to the 145, would he not be eligible to change equipment to the 175 once the vacancy opens? Which also begs the question ó are forced upgrades going to be a continuing trend or are they projected to go away?

Tyrion
12-27-2018, 09:49 PM
Forced upgrades will likely continue to be a thing for quite a while. Still losing 40ish CAs each month, that's about how many FO get their necessary hours each month. Just because Envoy hired a bunch of FO's two years ago, it doesn't mean they have been racking up the hours.

BigZ
12-27-2018, 10:00 PM
If heís forced to upgrade to the 145, would he not be eligible to change equipment to the 175 once the vacancy opens? Which also begs the question ó are forced upgrades going to be a continuing trend or are they projected to go away?
Yes, he can absolutely bid to 175, provided there is no seat lock (i.e. took the standing vacancy to upgrade asap, proffered on the bud etc). But the equipment to equipment CA bid is subject to 30% cap, i.e. if 145 CA bids to 175 and there are X vacancies available, no more than 0.3X of those go to existing CAs, rest to FOs.

Voski
12-28-2018, 04:41 AM
Yes, he can absolutely bid to 175, provided there is no seat lock (i.e. took the standing vacancy to upgrade asap, proffered on the bud etc). But the equipment to equipment CA bid is subject to 30% cap, i.e. if 145 CA bids to 175 and there are X vacancies available, no more than 0.3X of those go to existing CAs, rest to FOs.

Thanks for the insight. BigZ, youíre always super informative with your posts ó much appreciated!

Pedro4President
12-28-2018, 05:17 AM
I'm a new hire starting class in mid Jan, looking for some advice if anyone can help me out or point me to the correct forum. I'm trying to put a list of aircraft/locations together in case I have options when I go to indoc. My goals are to fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, just looking for some insight as to what my best options are. Right now my #1,2,3 choices would be 175 ORD, 145 ORD, 145 LGA. I would like to be in DFW but the upgrade times are a lot longer from what I understand. My thinking is that the 175 will see movement over the next few years with the increasing fleet size but not sure if that is accurate. I read in this forum that there were some 175 only classes, is that still happening? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

So first things first we can all agree that 175 ORD is what you want to start out with. From there the question is when you upgrade what equipment will you be on. Who knows really? The best guess is you would be forced or left with the 145 for the upgrade.

BillyBob1
12-28-2018, 05:48 AM
Fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, your #1 and #2 choices should be, #1 175 in any base, and #2 175 in any base.
There is no #3.

Thanks. Any idea what the reserve times are like at ORD and DFW for the 175? I'm guessing DFW would be a lot longer than ORD right?

BillyBob1
12-28-2018, 05:51 AM
Yes, he can absolutely bid to 175, provided there is no seat lock (i.e. took the standing vacancy to upgrade asap, proffered on the bud etc). But the equipment to equipment CA bid is subject to 30% cap, i.e. if 145 CA bids to 175 and there are X vacancies available, no more than 0.3X of those go to existing CAs, rest to FOs.

So first things first we can all agree that 175 ORD is what you want to start out with. From there the question is when you upgrade what equipment will you be on. Who knows really? The best guess is you would be forced or left with the 145 for the upgrade.

Thanks for the insight. So basically 175 is my best option to get the hours to upgrade. Then at that point seniority is going to determine whether I upgrade in the 175 or 145 and will also determine my location i'm assuming. And I would go back to reserve as a CA? For instance, If I get the 175 to ORD, I could get the hours to upgrade and the first available upgrade slot is a 145 to LGA right? Sorry for the noob questions but appreciate the info.

Cyio
12-28-2018, 06:06 AM
Thanks for the insight. So basically 175 is my best option to get the hours to upgrade. Then at that point seniority is going to determine whether I upgrade in the 175 or 145 and will also determine my location i'm assuming. And I would go back to reserve as a CA? For instance, If I get the 175 to ORD, I could get the hours to upgrade and the first available upgrade slot is a 145 to LGA right? Sorry for the noob questions but appreciate the info.
So the 175 has the most movement in ORD, this is pretty accurate and is most likely to continue with the 40 new aircraft. Reserve times there range from 4-8 months. The most junior captain 175 ORD is a 1331 seniority number with a 6/17 date of hire. I think this trend will continue although it will be affected by the crjís leaving. How much and how soon is still up in the air.

If you donít proffer for an upgrade and the company forces you to, you may get the 145. If that happens you are not seat locked unless you opt in to volunteer for it, giving you an extra 5 hour a month override for two years. Should you choose not to, you can then proffer on the next bid for the 175, however at this point you would need to go to another long term since you would have started training on the 145, this not allowing the qualified upgrade. However, training is about four months out right now on upgrades for the 175 so who knows, you might be able to bid back into it even before you go to training on the 145.

I will end this with the obvious, you are just starting and the situation now will certainly not be the same when it comes to your upgrade.

BillyBob1
12-28-2018, 06:53 PM
So the 175 has the most movement in ORD, this is pretty accurate and is most likely to continue with the 40 new aircraft. Reserve times there range from 4-8 months. The most junior captain 175 ORD is a 1331 seniority number with a 6/17 date of hire. I think this trend will continue although it will be affected by the crjís leaving. How much and how soon is still up in the air.

If you donít proffer for an upgrade and the company forces you to, you may get the 145. If that happens you are not seat locked unless you opt in to volunteer for it, giving you an extra 5 hour a month override for two years. Should you choose not to, you can then proffer on the next bid for the 175, however at this point you would need to go to another long term since you would have started training on the 145, this not allowing the qualified upgrade. However, training is about four months out right now on upgrades for the 175 so who knows, you might be able to bid back into it even before you go to training on the 145.

I will end this with the obvious, you are just starting and the situation now will certainly not be the same when it comes to your upgrade.

All makes sense, thank you for the info, definitely helps clear things up a little. 175 it is (as long as I have that option). Watch my class have all 145s now lol

ENH017
12-28-2018, 07:10 PM
So the 175 has the most movement in ORD, this is pretty accurate and is most likely to continue with the 40 new aircraft. Reserve times there range from 4-8 months. The most junior captain 175 ORD is a 1331 seniority number with a 6/17 date of hire. I think this trend will continue although it will be affected by the crjís leaving. How much and how soon is still up in the air.

If you donít proffer for an upgrade and the company forces you to, you may get the 145. If that happens you are not seat locked unless you opt in to volunteer for it, giving you an extra 5 hour a month override for two years. Should you choose not to, you can then proffer on the next bid for the 175, however at this point you would need to go to another long term since you would have started training on the 145, this not allowing the qualified upgrade. However, training is about four months out right now on upgrades for the 175 so who knows, you might be able to bid back into it even before you go to training on the 145.

I will end this with the obvious, you are just starting and the situation now will certainly not be the same when it comes to your upgrade.

Not sure if it's been mentioned already but something to keep in mind is that for a new hire today getting forced to upgrade might not be the normal anymore. We've got a large influx of upgrades coming now through the rest of this year.

Cyio
12-29-2018, 07:45 AM
Not sure if it's been mentioned already but something to keep in mind is that for a new hire today getting forced to upgrade might not be the normal anymore. We've got a large influx of upgrades coming now through the rest of this year.

Yes exactly hence the last catch all paragraph at the end. I suspect the forced upgrades will continue through the end of 2019 and that will be it. All speculation though. I would still argue the 175 is the plane a new hire would want to be on.

MD-11Loader
12-29-2018, 08:24 AM
Yes exactly hence the last catch all paragraph at the end. I suspect the forced upgrades will continue through the end of 2019 and that will be it. All speculation though. I would still argue the 175 is the plane a new hire would want to be on.


The forced upgrades will continue, especially if they don't get their 125 street captains that they want. The flow and outside attrition are eating up almost 40 captains a month. I can't see how they will get to a point where we will have to stop the forced upgrades while we are taking deliveries of airplanes.

mketch11
12-29-2018, 09:21 AM
I can't see how they will get to a point where we will have to stop the forced upgrades while we are taking deliveries of airplanes.
In the short term, perhaps the huge wave of FOs upgrading, decrease of flow to 15 per month and decrease of attrition due to future flowing pilots being 5 years on property instead of 12? These may be the droids you are looking for.

PilotPete4You
12-29-2018, 09:26 AM
This year I think we grew roughly 100-200 pilots.

These are guesstimates
Data: December
Total: 2400
New: 650
Attrition: 520

Growth: 130
5%

Does someone have the data on our fleet growth?

NoValueAviator
12-29-2018, 02:54 PM
Unless you live in Miami or New York, I can't think of any reason whatsoever to go for the 145. This airline is incompetently managed and one of the main ways that can ruin your first year as an airline pilot is by overstaffing the lesser Embraer. Although who can guess what kind of mistakes they'll make (and we'll all pay for) in the future.

BillyBob1
12-29-2018, 03:17 PM
The forced upgrades will continue, especially if they don't get their 125 street captains that they want. The flow and outside attrition are eating up almost 40 captains a month. I can't see how they will get to a point where we will have to stop the forced upgrades while we are taking deliveries of airplanes.
so what exactly are forced upgrades? Sounds self explanatory but why would someone not want to upgrade? Because they may have to switch aircraft or location? And if I have this correct seat locks only apply if you proffer (basically volunteer right?) to upgrade, but if the company forces it there is no seat lock?

BillyBob1
12-29-2018, 03:19 PM
Unless you live in Miami or New York, I can't think of any reason whatsoever to go for the 145. This airline is incompetently managed and one of the main ways that can ruin your first year as an airline pilot is by overstaffing the lesser Embraer. Although who can guess what kind of mistakes they'll make (and we'll all pay for) in the future.
I do not live in either and would prefer not to commute there either... ORD and DFW are close and easily commutable (i'm hoping). I guess it all depends what is available when I go to Indoc, plus whats left when I get to choose (i'm relatively young so will probably be choosing close to last unless my class is young, providing they are still having people choose based on age).

Cyio
12-29-2018, 04:45 PM
so what exactly are forced upgrades? Sounds self explanatory but why would someone not want to upgrade? Because they may have to switch aircraft or location? And if I have this correct seat locks only apply if you proffer (basically volunteer right?) to upgrade, but if the company forces it there is no seat lock?

I think the main reasons would be qol. You go from top of list to bottom after training. For a commuter that could be a huge deal.

speedbrakearmed
12-29-2018, 06:47 PM
I'm a new hire starting class in mid Jan, looking for some advice if anyone can help me out or point me to the correct forum. I'm trying to put a list of aircraft/locations together in case I have options when I go to indoc. My goals are to fly as much as possible and upgrade as fast as possible, just looking for some insight as to what my best options are. Right now my #1,2,3 choices would be 175 ORD, 145 ORD, 145 LGA. I would like to be in DFW but the upgrade times are a lot longer from what I understand. My thinking is that the 175 will see movement over the next few years with the increasing fleet size but not sure if that is accurate. I read in this forum that there were some 175 only classes, is that still happening? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.
I think it's important to mention something. You like everyone as soon as they get here aspires to "fly as much as possible, upgrade ASAP, build your PIC time and get out". Not that any of that logic isn't sound, but I will tell you as much as any other line pilot here that you shouldn't burn yourself out in these pursuits. Fly your line, pick up OT when it's convenient, and enjoy your days off. We don't make enough money to sacrifice our days off to pick up OT, especially if you're a commuter. You don't want to dread coming into work and I can personally tell you that after flying 90+ hours consecutively month after month will do that to you. Be someone who likes coming into work and is able to spread that positivity out on the line. Enjoy the ride, you're going to be doing this until your 65.

BillyBob1
12-30-2018, 08:43 AM
I think it's important to mention something. You like everyone as soon as they get here aspires to "fly as much as possible, upgrade ASAP, build your PIC time and get out". Not that any of that logic isn't sound, but I will tell you as much as any other line pilot here that you shouldn't burn yourself out in these pursuits. Fly your line, pick up OT when it's convenient, and enjoy your days off. We don't make enough money to sacrifice our days off to pick up OT, especially if you're a commuter. You don't want to dread coming into work and I can personally tell you that after flying 90+ hours consecutively month after month will do that to you. Be someone who likes coming into work and is able to spread that positivity out on the line. Enjoy the ride, you're going to be doing this until your 65.
Thanks, I completely agree, I definitely don't want to burn myself out, I would be happy with 75 hours per month and upgrade within 2 years, which seems reasonable at this point? Please tell me if i'm way off. I have a friend who has been with envoy 5 months now in the 145 and only flown 150 hours so I would like to avoid that if at all possible.. but I guess being on reserve can be hit or miss. Is this the typical hours I can expect to fly while on reserve or are there ways to fly more? I know it gets easier to fly as a lineholder but that will take 4-8 months (according to an earlier post). Thanks again.

havick206
12-30-2018, 10:59 AM
Thanks, I completely agree, I definitely don't want to burn myself out, I would be happy with 75 hours per month and upgrade within 2 years, which seems reasonable at this point? Please tell me if i'm way off. I have a friend who has been with envoy 5 months now in the 145 and only flown 150 hours so I would like to avoid that if at all possible.. but I guess being on reserve can be hit or miss. Is this the typical hours I can expect to fly while on reserve or are there ways to fly more? I know it gets easier to fly as a lineholder but that will take 4-8 months (according to an earlier post). Thanks again.

Youíre wayyy overthinking thinking this.

You have two options:

1) Want to fly lots; pick the growing fleet junior base.
2) Want QOL; pick the aircraft that will have you driving to work soonest.

Itís really that simple. Thereís going to be peaks and troughs in flight time, glut of pilots or thin on pilots, all of which canít really be predicted too well.

Cyio
12-30-2018, 11:04 AM
Youíre wayyy overthinking thinking this.

You have two options:

1) Want to fly lots; pick the growing fleet junior base.
2) Want QOL; pick the aircraft that will have you driving to work soonest.

Itís really that simple. Thereís going to be peaks and troughs in flight time, glut of pilots or thin on pilots, all of which canít really be predicted too well.

This pretty much sums up what everyone needs to know when it comes to this job.

Cyio
12-30-2018, 11:08 AM
I think it's important to mention something. You like everyone as soon as they get here aspires to "fly as much as possible, upgrade ASAP, build your PIC time and get out". Not that any of that logic isn't sound, but I will tell you as much as any other line pilot here that you shouldn't burn yourself out in these pursuits. Fly your line, pick up OT when it's convenient, and enjoy your days off. We don't make enough money to sacrifice our days off to pick up OT, especially if you're a commuter. You don't want to dread coming into work and I can personally tell you that after flying 90+ hours consecutively month after month will do that to you. Be someone who likes coming into work and is able to spread that positivity out on the line. Enjoy the ride, you're going to be doing this until your 65.

This is spot on advice. While everyone sets out with the dream of flying max hours to upgrade as soon as possible, it is not a very sustainable enterprise, especially for a commuter, someone with family or both.

Keep in mind a new hire won't flow for at least six years, so just sit back and enjoy the ride, as you will quickly find that trying to always fight the system or fly max hours becomes exhausting.

Even if your goal is to get out before the flow, you have lots of people with lots more hours that need to go first, so at the very least you are looking at several years here. You will get the hours, trust me. They come slow in the beginning and then next thing you know you will be searching for ways to drop trips and maximize time home.

I know of only a handful of people that actively maintain that breakneck schedule and they are often the most ragged looking. Its a tough life on the road that much.

Anyway, that's my two cents, best of luck.

BillyBob1
12-30-2018, 05:16 PM
This is spot on advice. While everyone sets out with the dream of flying max hours to upgrade as soon as possible, it is not a very sustainable enterprise, especially for a commuter, someone with family or both.

Keep in mind a new hire won't flow for at least six years, so just sit back and enjoy the ride, as you will quickly find that trying to always fight the system or fly max hours becomes exhausting.

Even if your goal is to get out before the flow, you have lots of people with lots more hours that need to go first, so at the very least you are looking at several years here. You will get the hours, trust me. They come slow in the beginning and then next thing you know you will be searching for ways to drop trips and maximize time home.

I know of only a handful of people that actively maintain that breakneck schedule and they are often the most ragged looking. Its a tough life on the road that much.

Anyway, that's my two cents, best of luck.
Thanks guys, appreciate the advice.

Bruno82
12-31-2018, 07:12 AM
Does anyone know when the next new hire class is?


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BigZ
12-31-2018, 08:14 AM
Does anyone know when the next new hire class is?


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Jan 7
Filler

inky13
12-31-2018, 07:28 PM
Does anyone know when the next new hire class is?


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7JAN
14JAN
28JAN


then every 2 weeks thereafter.

Voski
01-04-2019, 04:33 PM
Any projections for hiring numbers in 2019?

BigZ
01-04-2019, 04:39 PM
Any projections for hiring numbers in 2019?

600+
filler

MD-11Loader
01-04-2019, 05:22 PM
Any projections for hiring numbers in 2019?

Roughly 650 which will grow the list by 150 when itís all said and done. I think thatís what RW said. We need 125 HVAís to help make that target.

dera
01-04-2019, 05:29 PM
Roughly 650 which will grow the list by 150 when itís all said and done. I think thatís what RW said. We need 125 HVAís to help make that target.

So they expect to lose 500 pilots to flow and outside attrition next year?
I like those numbers :cool:

KodiakRS
01-05-2019, 10:18 PM
So they expect to lose 500 pilots to flow and outside attrition next year?
I like those numbers :cool:

500 in 2019 would be less movement than 2018. We lost roughly 315 via flow and 210 elsewhere in 2018.

dera
01-05-2019, 10:28 PM
500 in 2019 would be less movement than 2018. We lost roughly 315 via flow and 210 elsewhere in 2018.

That's amazing. I hope those numbers stay up there.

NoValueAviator
01-06-2019, 03:29 AM
Thatís very optimistic news. I wonder how many of those quitting are brand new and making mostly lateral moves to escape our crappy bases and sadistic-for-commuters reserve rules.

f16jetmech
01-06-2019, 05:52 AM
500 in 2019 would be less movement than 2018. We lost roughly 315 via flow and 210 elsewhere in 2018.

Lost a lot more than that! I went from seniority # 2400 in Nov of '17 to roughly 1600 by Nov of' 18

moon
01-06-2019, 07:53 AM
Lost a lot more than that! I went from seniority # 2400 in Nov of '17 to roughly 1600 by Nov of' 18

That could just be a matter of DECS #s too.

bh539
01-06-2019, 08:51 AM
Thatís very optimistic news. I wonder how many of those quitting are brand new and making mostly lateral moves to escape our crappy bases and sadistic-for-commuters reserve rules.

I know it sucks for commuters but why do people come here and then complain the bases suck? Just move in base.

Griffin1799
01-06-2019, 11:06 AM
9-DFL
3-OFL
7-OCC
3 cadets

What does this mean? OFL, DFL, OCC? Are these domiciles?

BigZ
01-06-2019, 11:15 AM
What does this mean? OFL, DFL, OCC? Are these domiciles?

First letter domicile
O - ORD
D - DFW
M - MIA
N - LGA/JFK

Second letter - seat
F - FO
C - CA

Third letter equipment
C - CRJ
E - 145
L - 175

OFL - Chicago FO 175

Griffin1799
01-06-2019, 11:45 AM
First letter domicile
O - ORD
D - DFW
M - MIA
N - LGA/JFK

Second letter - seat
F - FO
C - CA

Third letter equipment
C - CRJ
E - 145
L - 175

OFL - Chicago FO 175


Sweet, thanks for that!

BigZ
01-07-2019, 04:46 AM
I'm hearing all 175 fo plus CRJ decs today

Ijustlikeflying
01-07-2019, 05:02 AM
Class today? Anyone got the breakdown ?

Fallout15
01-07-2019, 05:10 AM
5 occ
26 o/dfl

inevitableneb
01-07-2019, 08:19 AM
5 occ
26 o/dfl

That's pretty cool people are getting their choice

moon
01-07-2019, 09:22 AM
That's pretty cool people are getting their choice

Unless they want Miami or New York.

AOLfreetrial
01-07-2019, 08:40 PM
Unless they want Miami or New York.

Precisely. Shot in the dark, any inside scoop on 1/24 or 2/11 options?

Speculation perhaps?

dera
01-07-2019, 08:44 PM
Precisely. Shot in the dark, any inside scoop on 1/24 or 2/11 options?

Speculation perhaps?

There's never any inside scoop. But strong assumption is that they are very 175 heavy. Might have one 145 only trap there, but most hiring will be to 175.

bigtime209
01-08-2019, 03:37 AM
Precisely. Shot in the dark, any inside scoop on 1/24 or 2/11 options?

Speculation perhaps?

Miami remains senior and NY is slowing down and losing flying. Leaves DFW and ORD which will be mainly 175 slots with some 145 and an occasional CRJ thrown in.

RomeoBravo
01-11-2019, 06:12 PM
Precisely. Shot in the dark, any inside scoop on 1/24 or 2/11 options?

Speculation perhaps?

I've heard very likely possibility of CRJ only classes Feb '19- April '19.

AOLfreetrial
01-11-2019, 07:21 PM
I've heard very likely possibility of CRJ only classes Feb '19- April '19.

Source????

Naviator
01-11-2019, 07:30 PM
Source????

Uranus

óó

dera
01-11-2019, 08:26 PM
I've heard very likely possibility of CRJ only classes Feb '19- April '19.

Lol.
(filler)

BigZ
01-12-2019, 07:08 AM
Lol.
(filler)

Maybe not as drastic, but if the CRJ phase-out is not getting accelerated, they would need to train a bunch more FOs to keep them flying.

NoValueAviator
01-12-2019, 07:34 AM
175-or-die shouldn't come here, even now. Check out Republic.

SoFloFlyer
01-12-2019, 11:31 AM
175-or-die shouldn't come here, even now. Check out Republic.

Republic is backed up until November. Check out Mesa.

MD-11Loader
01-12-2019, 12:10 PM
Republic is backed up until November. Check out Mesa.

Who might be losing some of their flying to XJT. The first of the UA 175ís is coming due for re-negotiation.

dera
01-12-2019, 12:14 PM
Maybe not as drastic, but if the CRJ phase-out is not getting accelerated, they would need to train a bunch more FOs to keep them flying.

Yeah I think we'll see a few OFC slots every now and then, but CRJ-only for 2 months ain't happening.

Life is "good" for DECs too if you don't like the CRJ. A few december hire DECs already bid away from it.

SoFloFlyer
01-12-2019, 07:12 PM
Who might be losing some of their flying to XJT. The first of the UA 175ís is coming due for re-negotiation.

Youíre right. Check out ExpressJet.

Varsity
01-12-2019, 08:28 PM
I hope Envoy bids for the Mesa 175 flying. Two Texas bases would be sick! :cool:

RomeoBravo
01-12-2019, 09:20 PM
Source????



Recruiters were told this at their internal meeting ~2 weeks ago.


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arkmm
01-13-2019, 02:24 PM
Life is "good" for DECs too if you don't like the CRJ. A few december hire DECs already bid away from it.

They bid out of it before they got seat locked into it?

backtoregionals
01-13-2019, 03:50 PM
Youíre right. Check out ExpressJet.

Expressjet will not being hiring into the EJET anytime soon. The few EJETs they are getting initially will probably go top of the list.

FlyGuy2112
01-13-2019, 06:01 PM
They bid out of it before they got seat locked into it?

DECís are involuntary displaced on day one of indoc and are not seat locked

180tillLIMMA
01-14-2019, 04:27 AM
Anyone have info on todayís drop?

Ramen4dinner
01-14-2019, 05:05 AM
100% OFE. Fml

How long is reserve gonna be, how much flying will I do? I donít care about equipment just donít want to not fly and build time.

Ijustlikeflying
01-14-2019, 05:12 AM
100% OFE. Fml

How long is reserve gonna be, how much flying will I do? I donít care about equipment just donít want to not fly and build time.

Was there really a class today?

dera
01-14-2019, 05:15 AM
Was there really a class today?

Yep. And another class next week too.

NoValueAviator
01-14-2019, 05:40 AM
1.5+ years rsv from DOH, 15-25 hours flying a month. Welcome!

FlyGuy2112
01-14-2019, 05:57 AM
100% OFE. Fml

How long is reserve gonna be, how much flying will I do? I donít care about equipment just donít want to not fly and build time.

Any DECís?

Ramen4dinner
01-14-2019, 05:58 AM
Cheers. Yes 5 DEC

NoValueAviator
01-14-2019, 06:16 AM
DECs got OCE?

Ramen4dinner
01-14-2019, 06:37 AM
decs got oce?

100% oce ofe

FlyGuy2112
01-14-2019, 06:45 AM
100% oce ofe

How many in the class total?

TeeRainPULup
01-14-2019, 06:50 AM
How many in the class total?

24 in class

razorback93
01-14-2019, 06:59 AM
100% OFE. Fml

How long is reserve gonna be, how much flying will I do? I donít care about equipment just donít want to not fly and build time.

Reserve will be 10 months, you won't fly a lot. Settle in.

pilot6969
01-14-2019, 07:03 AM
Reserve will be 10 months, you won't fly a lot. Settle in.

10 months or more

Ramen4dinner
01-14-2019, 07:17 AM
Reserve will be 10 months, you won't fly a lot. Settle in.

Wooo. Could be worse (I keep telling myself this)

Cyio
01-14-2019, 07:33 AM
Wooo. Could be worse (I keep telling myself this)

Yeah it could be way worse. Hopefully you live in ORD as if that's the case, it could be a pretty chill year on reserve. While I appreciate the desire to want to upgrade, you need to think long term as well and understand that this will be just one year in what will hopefully be a decades long endeavor.

If you dont live in ORD, sorry, it will suck. We have the worst qol for commuters on reserve.

sigler
01-14-2019, 10:13 AM
Is there a base lock after you get assigned a base in class or can one immediately bid for a different base?

arbatistoni
01-14-2019, 10:22 AM
Is there a base lock after you get assigned a base in class or can one immediately bid for a different base?

You can bid for another base as soon as there's a vacancy bid (they have been every 3-4 months recently but can change.) But you may be limited in base selection by the aircraft you are assigned.

Edit: disregard the base limitations, i see now everyone got the 145.

havick206
01-14-2019, 10:22 AM
Is there a base lock after you get assigned a base in class or can one immediately bid for a different base?

You can bid a different base at the next vacancy bid.

arbatistoni
01-14-2019, 10:25 AM
10 months or more

you really think 10 months in ord? that seems optimistic.

KodiakRS
01-14-2019, 02:58 PM
If you dont live in ORD, sorry, it will suck. We have the worst qol for commuters on reserve.

You just have to look on the positive side!

-You'll become familiar with the jumpseat procedures for almost every single US airline.

-You'll have plenty of opportunity to network with other pilots while sitting in said jump seat.

-You'll become and expert at replacing luggage works wheels as they rust out due to dragging your suitcase to/from your crash pad all the time.

-Speaking of crashpads, and networking, there's nothing like living in the same 2 bedroom apartment as 16 other pilots for making connections!

-The Blue line stops usually only smell like urine during the summer. During the winter it freezes and doesn't smell nearly as bad.

-At least you're not stuck in LGA.

BigZ
01-14-2019, 03:50 PM
You just have to look on the positive side!

-You'll become familiar with the jumpseat procedures for almost every single US airline.

-You'll have plenty of opportunity to network with other pilots while sitting in said jump seat.

-You'll become and expert at replacing luggage works wheels as they rust out due to dragging your suitcase to/from your crash pad all the time.

-Speaking of crashpads, and networking, there's nothing like living in the same 2 bedroom apartment as 16 other pilots for making connections!

-The Blue line stops usually only smell like urine during the summer. During the winter it freezes and doesn't smell nearly as bad.

-At least you're not stuck in LGA.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif

Ramen4dinner
01-14-2019, 03:51 PM
There you go, i need more positives! I knew there were hidden benefits to 18 months reserve. I would hate to have to miss out and hold a line by end of training like the 175 counterparts.

You just have to look on the positive side!

-You'll become familiar with the jumpseat procedures for almost every single US airline.

-You'll have plenty of opportunity to network with other pilots while sitting in said jump seat.

-You'll become and expert at replacing luggage works wheels as they rust out due to dragging your suitcase to/from your crash pad all the time.

-Speaking of crashpads, and networking, there's nothing like living in the same 2 bedroom apartment as 16 other pilots for making connections!

-The Blue line stops usually only smell like urine during the summer. During the winter it freezes and doesn't smell nearly as bad.

-At least you're not stuck in LGA.

Cyio
01-14-2019, 04:15 PM
There you go, i need more positives! I knew there were hidden benefits to 18 months reserve. I would hate to have to miss out and hold a line by end of training like the 175 counterparts.

There are some advantages to being older I guess.

Speedster
01-14-2019, 04:57 PM
Did they really give an entire class the 145? And why would they do that if itís staffed well enough for a year + of reserve? Iím looking at lateraling over but thatís somewhat dissappointing IMO. Was hoping classes would at least be a mix

dera
01-14-2019, 05:07 PM
Did they really give an entire class the 145? And why would they do that if itís staffed well enough for a year + of reserve? Iím looking at lateraling over but thatís somewhat dissappointing IMO. Was hoping classes would at least be a mix

For FOs, todays class was 100% 145. Previous 2 classes have been 100% 175.
There's no way to tell in advance what you're going to get.

Speedster
01-14-2019, 05:27 PM
Is it possible to bid off equipment like you can bases?

jake cutter
01-14-2019, 05:29 PM
No. Not until upgrade.

KodiakRS
01-14-2019, 05:30 PM
Is it possible to bid off equipment like you can bases?

The only way for an FO to switch equipment is to be displaced, if we open a new fleet type, or upgrade. Captains can bid different equipment with some caveats including a seat lock.

TeeRainPULup
01-15-2019, 10:31 AM
The only way for an FO to switch equipment is to be displaced, if we open a new fleet type, or upgrade. Captains can bid different equipment with some caveats including a seat lock.

Speaking of upgrade, prob going to take new 145 FOís close to 3 years to hit the 950 hour mark.

MD-11Loader
01-15-2019, 11:48 AM
Speaking of upgrade, prob going to take new 145 FOís close to 3 years to hit the 950 hour mark.

If you look at how many 145 captains are flowing system wide then youíll see that it wonít be that long. There are only 10 guys flowing between now and the fall in ORD in the 175. That means theyíre coming from the 145. There will be a large churn for backfills soon.

TeeRainPULup
01-15-2019, 12:35 PM
If you look at how many 145 captains are flowing system wide then youíll see that it wonít be that long. There are only 10 guys flowing between now and the fall in ORD in the 175. That means theyíre coming from the 145. There will be a large churn for backfills soon.

Whatís the FO junior line holder in ORD?

bigtime209
01-15-2019, 01:13 PM
What’s the FO junior line holder in ORD?

For JAN on the 145, a 1/18 hire.

Varsity
01-15-2019, 02:31 PM
If you look at how many 145 captains are flowing system wide then youíll see that it wonít be that long. There are only 10 guys flowing between now and the fall in ORD in the 175. That means theyíre coming from the 145. There will be a large churn for backfills soon.


They're coming from the left seat of the 145. That will be filled by guys coming out of the right seat of all 3 airplanes.

FO's in the right seat of the 145 - Major WTF by the company this week with that class. How many 145 FO's are upgrading soon?

dera
01-15-2019, 06:07 PM
So, bets on the next class drop?
After Mondays semi-surprise drop, I'm gonna go all in on 100% 175.

Ramen4dinner
01-15-2019, 06:16 PM
Speaking of upgrade, prob going to take new 145 FOís close to 3 years to hit the 950 hour mark.

3 years. Come tf on man

dera
01-15-2019, 06:23 PM
3 years. Come tf on man

It'll be much faster. This forum is full of people who like to neg as much as they can, thinking their "opinions" will suddenly make the company offer more money when they can't fill NH classes.

I'm sure you've already noticed that the general "atmosphere" is much, much more positive than what you'd get from this forum.

RomeoBravo
01-15-2019, 06:25 PM
So, bets on the next class drop?

After Mondays semi-surprise drop, I'm gonna go all in on 100% 175.



My money is on 100% CRJ offerings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Varsity
01-15-2019, 06:26 PM
3 years. Come tf on man

What's your guess? 2.5? It's not my jet, but I know they have a lot of FO's doing a lot of sitting.

Varsity
01-15-2019, 06:28 PM
My money is on 100% CRJ offerings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Makes me think they will run a couple final classes just to be certain that it's topped off before they let the training program go.

Ramen4dinner
01-15-2019, 06:31 PM
What's your guess? 2.5? It's not my jet, but I know they have a lot of FO's doing a lot of sitting.

Youíre right, but Iíve heard 10 months from IOE to 1.5 years, but now 36 months...Get TF out. Is what it is. Raw deal, yes. But itís anyoneís guess and thatís the job. Could quit, but Iím no fn quitter.

UncreativeUser
01-15-2019, 06:32 PM
It'll be much faster. This forum is full of people who like to neg as much as they can, thinking their "opinions" will suddenly make the company offer more money when they can't fill NH classes.

I'm sure you've already noticed that the general "atmosphere" is much, much more positive than what you'd get from this forum.



Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dera
01-15-2019, 06:37 PM
What's your guess? 2.5? It's not my jet, but I know they have a lot of FO's doing a lot of sitting.

They also have a lot of movement.

Dude - you're seriously projecting movement 3 YEARS in advance at a regional? You must be smarter than anyone else.

dera
01-15-2019, 06:39 PM
You’re right, but I’ve heard 10 months from IOE to 1.5 years, but now 36 months...Get TF out. Is what it is. Raw deal, yes. But it’s anyone’s guess and that’s the job. Could quit, but I’m no fn quitter.

10 months won't happen if you come in with 0 121 time. You still need 1000 hours 121 time. But 36 months is like saying you'll flow in 9 years. It's the absolutely worst case zombie apocalypse scenario.
You'll get a line in a year, upgrade in two and flow in less than 6.

You guys seem to have a great group of people in your class. Just study hard, and ignore the curmudgeons here.

Varsity
01-15-2019, 06:42 PM
10 months won't happen if you come in with 0 121 time. You still need 1000 hours 121 time. But 36 months is like saying you'll flow in 9 years. It's the absolutely worst case zombie apocalypse scenario.
You'll get a line in a year, upgrade in two and flow in less than 6.

You guys seem to have a great group of people in your class. Just study hard, and ignore the curmudgeons here.


Tell me more

https://media.giphy.com/media/xUPOqrl3x2SkKjE3Is/giphy.gif

dera
01-15-2019, 06:43 PM
Tell me more



Beer is on me if they don't, how bow dah?

dera
01-15-2019, 06:49 PM
My money is on 100% CRJ offerings


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OFC currently has more FOs per line than DFW 175 right now. Doubt it.

crj700
01-15-2019, 07:25 PM
Beer is on me if they don't, how bow dah?

Cash me outside.

highfarfast
01-15-2019, 07:32 PM
Beer is on me if they don't, how bow dah?

I'll take that beer!


Sub 6 year flow will happen. But not for a new hire today.

dera
01-15-2019, 07:38 PM
I'll take that beer!


Sub 6 year flow will happen. But not for a new hire today.

Numbers support it, albeit marginally. We'll see January 2025!

highfarfast
01-15-2019, 07:42 PM
Numbers support it, albeit marginally. We'll see January 2025!

I'd like to see those numbers.

dera
01-15-2019, 07:47 PM
I'd like to see those numbers.

approx. 50% attrition outside flow last year. New hire is ~2100 slots from flow. Run the numbers, they're not far off. I said marginally. Any changes and it might jump to 7, but with the hiring increasing at all legacies, I bet it only gets better.

Voski
01-15-2019, 07:51 PM
approx. 50% attrition outside flow last year. New hire is ~2100 slots from flow. Run the numbers, they're not far off. I said marginally. Any changes and it might jump to 7, but with the hiring increasing at all legacies, I bet it only gets better.

Iíd be surprised if it wasnít better than 6 years. Thereís an incredible amount of attrition to be had as hiring continues to ramp up at the legacies and majors for the foreseeable future. Of course, any number of variables could happen making the flow much shorter or much longer. Therefore, keep your apps updated and see what happens ó worst case you end up at AA someday ... maybe.

dera
01-15-2019, 07:54 PM
Iíd be surprised if it wasnít better than 6 years. Thereís an incredible amount of attrition to be had as hiring continues to ramp up at the legacies and majors for the foreseeable future. Of course, any number of variables could happen making the flow much shorter or much longer. Therefore, keep your apps updated and see what happens ó worst case you end up at AA someday ... maybe.

Exactly. But positive comments aren't welcome here, so you need to tone it down.

highfarfast
01-15-2019, 07:58 PM
approx. 50% attrition outside flow last year. New hire is ~2100 slots from flow. Run the numbers, they're not far off. I said marginally. Any changes and it might jump to 7, but with the hiring increasing at all legacies, I bet it only gets better.

The higher up you are on the seniority list you are, the more of that 50% attrition will be behind you and not effect your flow. I also suspect the math you're using assumes the flow rate will remain the same as it is now (the requirements actually decrease significantly after the protected pilots are gone after this year).

You still have to get through a huge amount of new hires in late '16 and all of '17. Those earlier guys on that wave will have a sub 6 year flow... some very few might have sub 4. After those earlier guys, the number shoot up. By the time you get to '18 hires, you have to assume that all the predicted attrition is senior to them to be sub 6 years and it's worse after that.

dera
01-15-2019, 08:04 PM
The higher up you are on the seniority list you are, the more of that 50% attrition will be behind you and not effect your flow. I also suspect the math you're using assumes the flow rate will remain the same as it is now (the requirements actually decrease significantly after the protected pilots are gone after this year).

You still have to get through a huge amount of new hires in late '16 and all of '17. Those earlier guys on that wave will have a sub 6 year flow... some very few might have sub 4. After those earlier guys, the number shoot up. By the time you get to '18 hires, you have to assume that all the predicted attrition is senior to them to be sub 6 years and it's worse after that.

Damn it, come on, use your brain.

If I used the numbers they flow today, it would be a 6 year flow for everyone with ZERO outside attrition. That's obviously not the case.

I told you the number a new hire is from flow today (2100ish).
Add a linear ratio of outside attrition going from 100% to 0%
Use 20 as monthly flow number (which it will be on average).
And you see just under 6 years as the result.
Optimistic - maybe. But the numbers do support it.
I personally think it'll be way less than that, there will be way more outside attrition than currently, but I don't want to open that can of worms here.

highfarfast
01-15-2019, 08:10 PM
Damn it, come on, use your brain.

If I used the numbers they flow today, it would be a 6 year flow for everyone with ZERO outside attrition. That's obviously not the case.

I told you the number a new hire is from flow today (2100ish).
Add a linear ratio of outside attrition going from 100% to 0%
Use 20 as monthly flow number (which it will be on average).
And you see just under 6 years as the result.
Optimistic - maybe. But the numbers do support it.
I personally think it'll be way less than that, there will be way more outside attrition than currently, but I don't want to open that can of worms here.

I hope you're right. Good for all of us that are already here. You're being very optimistic though. And because of that, I'll take the bet.

dera
01-15-2019, 08:22 PM
I hope you're right. Good for all of us that are already here. You're being very optimistic though. And because of that, I'll take the bet.

Hey, worst case scenario, we can drink beer. Whichever way it goes, it's all good :)

highfarfast
01-15-2019, 08:25 PM
Hey, worst case scenario, we can drink beer. Whichever way it goes, it's all good :)

And there's nothing wrong with that!

BigZ
01-15-2019, 08:53 PM
My money is on 100% CRJ offerings

Being realistic, how much can the training department push through a month? 12-14 tops. If we are done with OCC DECs and only factor in internal upgrades, I'd say that 4-5 slots a class is a realistic number, full class of OFC would just sit waiting for the sim time. As is, the recurrents get pushed back for the lack of the sim slots.

OFC currently has more FOs per line than DFW 175 right now. Doubt it.
By March there will be around 50 or less FOs left. That's enough to staff 10 ac and as is I think we'll see a full month of critical coverage on the OFC side in March.

approx. 50% attrition outside flow last year. New hire is ~2100 slots from flow. Run the numbers, they're not far off. I said marginally. Any changes and it might jump to 7, but with the hiring increasing at all legacies, I bet it only gets better.
That was my guesstimate until I actually looked at the attrition numbers. Of that number you are talking about 50+% left year one and 25% left year two. Trickle after that. It is definitely not "200 year 1, 0 last year, so let's say an average of 100 a year". This might change with the current pilot group having less seniority, making the move easier, but we'll see about that next year.
With the current attrition and flow numbers your class will flow in a bit over 7 years. If it happens earlier, I'll be happy.

dera
01-15-2019, 09:26 PM
That was my guesstimate until I actually looked at the attrition numbers. Of that number you are talking about 50+% left year one and 25% left year two. Trickle after that. It is definitely not "200 year 1, 0 last year, so let's say an average of 100 a year". This might change with the current pilot group having less seniority, making the move easier, but we'll see about that next year.
With the current attrition and flow numbers your class will flow in a bit over 7 years. If it happens earlier, I'll be happy.

I added a bit of salt based on a guess that attrition will increase during those 6-7 years. Which is very realistic I'd say, given the hiring needs across all majors.
If I flow in 7 years, I'm very happy. I'll still have ~25 years at American.

NoValueAviator
01-16-2019, 02:30 AM
3 years sounds unrealistic but from hire date thatís possible for guys who bid to sr bases on the 145. It will be better for those who make ORD or NYC work but still a major career setback compared to 175 easy street.

Ramen4dinner
01-16-2019, 04:54 AM
3 years sounds unrealistic but from hire date thatís possible for guys who bid to sr bases on the 145. It will be better for those who make ORD or NYC work but still a major career setback compared to 175 easy street.

ďMajor Career SetbackĒ 👀

dera
01-16-2019, 05:41 AM
ďMajor Career SetbackĒ 👀

Setback, maybe. Major, nope.

mketch11
01-16-2019, 07:18 AM
I added a bit of salt based on a guess that attrition will increase during those 6-7 years. Which is very realistic I'd say, given the hiring needs across all majors.
If I flow in 7 years, I'm very happy. I'll still have ~25 years at American.
My crystal ball says attrition will decrease in the next few years at Envoy. Captains with 12+ years 121 and a ton of PIC time will be much more likely to leave than the 5 year flow who is barely competitive at a major. Also, they will be much less likely to leave for an LCC knowing American is right around the corner. Not sure why so many people think that majors are going to start hiring everyone with a pulse any day now. The mass retirements at American wonít be much of a factor for street hires anyway considering they get a large portion of new hires from flow, and the majors are much more likely to consolidate fleet types etc than to triple hiring. Folks on here keep claiming that the 9 year flow for a new will really be less than 6. Caution to potential applicants, this magical 30% decrease is more wishful thinking than anything else. The actual numbers are much less. My flow time according to Alpa at hire was 5.5 years. Now after over two years it is 5.3. Even if you disregard the temporary increase of flow from 25 to 29 a month, that comes out to a 3% decrease in flow due to attrition. The effects of attrition decrease as one moves up the list, so you could overestimate again and say that it would double by the time you flow bringing you to around a 6% decrease in flow. If you start at 9 years that brings you to around 8.5 years to flow. These estimates are at least loosely based on actual numbers and contractual requirements. If you want to base things on your own expectations of the company giving away more flow or the majors going crazy hiring low time pilots then be my guest, but just know what risk you are taking assuming such things.

NoValueAviator
01-16-2019, 07:49 AM
Setback, maybe. Major, nope.

Fair point I guess. Iíll say major if you were going to get hired, just an inconvenience if you were counting on the flow.

BigZ
01-16-2019, 07:55 AM
My crystal ball says attrition will decrease in the next few years at Envoy. Captains with 12+ years 121 and a ton of PIC time will be much more likely to leave than the 5 year flow who is barely competitive at a major. Also, they will be much less likely to leave for an LCC knowing American is right around the corner. Not sure why so many people think that majors are going to start hiring everyone with a pulse any day now. The mass retirements at American wonít be much of a factor for street hires anyway considering they get a large portion of new hires from flow, and the majors are much more likely to consolidate fleet types etc than to triple hiring. Folks on here keep claiming that the 9 year flow for a new will really be less than 6. Caution to potential applicants, this magical 30% decrease is more wishful thinking than anything else. The actual numbers are much less. My flow time according to Alpa at hire was 5.5 years. Now after over two years it is 5.3. Even if you disregard the temporary increase of flow from 25 to 29 a month, that comes out to a 3% decrease in flow due to attrition. The effects of attrition decrease as one moves up the list, so you could overestimate again and say that it would double by the time you flow bringing you to around a 6% decrease in flow. If you start at 9 years that brings you to around 8.5 years to flow. These estimates are at least loosely based on actual numbers and contractual requirements. If you want to base things on your own expectations of the company giving away more flow or the majors going crazy hiring low time pilots then be my guest, but just know what risk you are taking assuming such things.

That is also a very valid point of view.
My gut feeling is that the 1-2 year of service group will keep seeing high attrition due to longer reserves, low flight time first year etc. 3-4 yos might go up a bit, since they might qualify for the LCC/heavy cargo mins and the future 3-4 yos will be further away from the flow than the 2015-2016 hires, but the 5+ group is more likely to stay put for the flow.

BIueSideUp
01-18-2019, 04:45 AM
My crystal ball says attrition will decrease in the next few years at Envoy. Captains with 12+ years 121 and a ton of PIC time will be much more likely to leave than the 5 year flow who is barely competitive at a major. Also, they will be much less likely to leave for an LCC knowing American is right around the corner. Not sure why so many people think that majors are going to start hiring everyone with a pulse any day now. The mass retirements at American wonít be much of a factor for street hires anyway considering they get a large portion of new hires from flow, and the majors are much more likely to consolidate fleet types etc than to triple hiring. Folks on here keep claiming that the 9 year flow for a new will really be less than 6. Caution to potential applicants, this magical 30% decrease is more wishful thinking than anything else. The actual numbers are much less. My flow time according to Alpa at hire was 5.5 years. Now after over two years it is 5.3. Even if you disregard the temporary increase of flow from 25 to 29 a month, that comes out to a 3% decrease in flow due to attrition. The effects of attrition decrease as one moves up the list, so you could overestimate again and say that it would double by the time you flow bringing you to around a 6% decrease in flow. If you start at 9 years that brings you to around 8.5 years to flow. These estimates are at least loosely based on actual numbers and contractual requirements. If you want to base things on your own expectations of the company giving away more flow or the majors going crazy hiring low time pilots then be my guest, but just know what risk you are taking assuming such things.

That x.xx "time to AA" that Alpa puts out isn't your flow time from today it's your flow time from hire date. That means in the time you've been here your projected flow date has gotten closer than it was when you were hired. The day you flow it will match your years at the company.

mketch11
01-18-2019, 06:25 AM
That x.xx "time to AA" that Alpa puts out isn't your flow time from today it's your flow time from hire date. That means in the time you've been here your projected flow date has gotten closer than it was when you were hired. The day you flow it will match your years at the company.

If my post made it seem like I wasnít aware of this, then I must be depressingly bad at getting my point across.

martyByrde
01-18-2019, 12:50 PM
If my post made it seem like I wasnít aware of this, then I must be depressingly bad at getting my point across.

:D
..........

Cyio
01-19-2019, 02:34 AM
My crystal ball says attrition will decrease in the next few years at Envoy. Captains with 12+ years 121 and a ton of PIC time will be much more likely to leave than the 5 year flow who is barely competitive at a major. Also, they will be much less likely to leave for an LCC knowing American is right around the corner. Not sure why so many people think that majors are going to start hiring everyone with a pulse any day now. The mass retirements at American wonít be much of a factor for street hires anyway considering they get a large portion of new hires from flow, and the majors are much more likely to consolidate fleet types etc than to triple hiring. Folks on here keep claiming that the 9 year flow for a new will really be less than 6. Caution to potential applicants, this magical 30% decrease is more wishful thinking than anything else. The actual numbers are much less. My flow time according to Alpa at hire was 5.5 years. Now after over two years it is 5.3. Even if you disregard the temporary increase of flow from 25 to 29 a month, that comes out to a 3% decrease in flow due to attrition. The effects of attrition decrease as one moves up the list, so you could overestimate again and say that it would double by the time you flow bringing you to around a 6% decrease in flow. If you start at 9 years that brings you to around 8.5 years to flow. These estimates are at least loosely based on actual numbers and contractual requirements. If you want to base things on your own expectations of the company giving away more flow or the majors going crazy hiring low time pilots then be my guest, but just know what risk you are taking assuming such things.

My flow date when hired was just over six years, now it is just over 5 years. It has come down a year in the past year. I am not a huge believe in the flow, but it does seem to be coming down for some.

Voski
01-19-2019, 11:34 AM
Yet another class starting this Monday. Is the 3x classes a month deal continuing for the foreseeable future?

Cyio
01-20-2019, 07:11 AM
Yet another class starting this Monday. Is the 3x classes a month deal continuing for the foreseeable future?

My question is why do people keep coming here? The regional job pool must be drying up.

NoValueAviator
01-21-2019, 03:13 AM
My question is why do people keep coming here? The regional job pool must be drying up.

I think thatís what is ultimately behind a lot of the issues. Anytime you suggest another outfit, itís either ďtheyíve got one foot in the graveĒ or ďtheyíre interviewing for spring of 2025.Ē In my opinion the ďregional pilot shortageĒ was grossly overstated and weíre entering the era of regional pilot glut. The reality is that many of the people coming through the typical 1500 hour channels are 23 years old, willing to work for nothing and accept very poor conditions just to say theyíre a pilot on Tinder and get a shot at mainline. I think Envoy has clued into this, hence steering hiring towards the cadet program.

SilentLurker
01-21-2019, 03:26 AM
The reality is that many of the people coming through the typical 1500 hour channels are 23 years old. I think Envoy has clued into this, hence steering hiring towards the cadet program.


Facts.......

Nothing wrong with SFS to our pilots until itís an unstoppable bargaining & recruitment tool then we scream hell. I see a few issues with our pilot group supporting growth increases.

1. The cadets today will take the job for $30,00/yr and no bonus like guys did in the past!

2. We are made to believe the company & union then must support companies growth ambitions, and they tie it to flow! Saying no growth no flow!thus we believe growth must happen for flow to continue working. Especially for protected pilots.

Thus the CONUNDRUM we are in. No incentive for company to increase pay or change reserve rules. Win win for Co.

Am I wrong?

Cyio
01-21-2019, 04:06 AM
Facts.......

Nothing wrong with SFS to our pilots until it’s an unstoppable bargaining & recruitment tool then we scream hell. I see a few issues with our pilot group supporting growth increases.

1. The cadets today will take the job for $30,00/yr and no bonus like guys did in the past!

2. We are made to believe the company & union then must support companies growth ambitions, and they tie it to flow! Saying no growth no flow!thus we believe growth must happen for flow to continue working. Especially for protected pilots.

Thus the CONUNDRUM we are in. No incentive for company to increase pay or change reserve rules. Win win for Co.

Am I wrong?

To add to this, it also hurts us that we are a segmented pilot group. The last major deal we made, the union even stated they couldn't please everyone, so they focused on getting the protected pilots out the door as fast as possible, while most everyone else took a back seat.

Dont get me wrong, the PP should go, they have been through a lot, however I feel that was the time that we should have really gone for the big pay/qol/flow increases, as the company was in a position to negotiate then.

Our group has lifers that want nothing but money and qol improvements that benefit them. We have middle of the pack pilots that want to just flow and get out so flow is most important and then the newer hires looking at 6-9 years here, valuing flow much less, wanting nothing but pay and reserve improvements. This situation puts management in a very nice spot because we are fragmented on what our priorities are.

At the end of the day, flow guarantees should be everyone but the 200 lifers main priority. If the people interviewing here would just understand that every time they decide to ignore the warnings and come anyone they are directly impacting their own flow/qol, management would finally come back to the table.

If I was a new hire right now, I would assume the flow doesn't exist, because let's be honest, the odds of it surviving 9 years in its current state are slim to none.

NoValueAviator
01-21-2019, 04:45 AM
I doubt reserve rules will ever change as long as half the new hire pilots have never really experienced it on the 175. Anytime a 175 guy gets involved in a conversation about reserve w/ haggard 145 and CRJ standbys their input is ďif you donít like it, go apply at Brioche Doree, no one forced you to come here.Ē

Bruno82
01-21-2019, 05:07 AM
Class drops for today?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cyio
01-21-2019, 05:27 AM
I doubt reserve rules will ever change as long as half the new hire pilots have never really experienced it on the 175. Anytime a 175 guy gets involved in a conversation about reserve w/ haggard 145 and CRJ standbys their input is ďif you donít like it, go apply at Brioche Doree, no one forced you to come here.Ē

I donít know about all of that, Iím not on the 145 and I want better reserve rules not only for me but for my fellow pilots. .

FlyGuy2112
01-21-2019, 05:32 AM
Class drops for today?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No class today. Next week

pitchattitude
01-21-2019, 05:46 AM
No class today. Next week
So the class every week was a rumor.

The first class of the year was just a hold over from what should have been the second December class.

bh539
01-21-2019, 08:30 AM
willing to work for nothing and accept very poor conditions just to say theyíre a pilot on Tinder and get a shot at mainline

I feel personally attacked

dera
01-21-2019, 10:17 AM
So the class every week was a rumor.

The first class of the year was just a hold over from what should have been the second December class.

Not sure who said that, the classes were always 7th, 14th and 28th in January.
And yes, there were 2 classes in December.

pitchattitude
01-21-2019, 10:50 AM
Not sure who said that, the classes were always 7th, 14th and 28th in January.
And yes, there were 2 classes in December.

Pretty sure there was only one in December. Second would have been the 17th and there wasnít.

dera
01-21-2019, 10:52 AM
Pretty sure there was only one. Second would have been the 17th and there wasn’t.

Ah you're right. I forgot they shut everything down for christmas...

Still not sure who said weekly classes in January. The Jan class dates were set in December.

smtx123
01-21-2019, 01:30 PM
Pretty sure there was only one in December. Second would have been the 17th and there wasnít.
Yes, only one in December, then three this month. Third for this month is next week. Back to every two weeks in February.

pitchattitude
01-21-2019, 06:37 PM
Heard from good source.

Emb145/CRJ classes every two weeks

E175 classes every week starting Janurary.
Still not sure who said weekly classes in January. The Jan class dates were set in December.

I have said Envoy canít just magically increase the 175 training for some time because they canít. If they could they would.

It is going to take a while for them to increase throughput.

TeeRainPULup
01-22-2019, 06:11 AM
Mad Dog retiring at AA is going to help stop the retirement/staffing bleeding at AA for a good while. Def wonít be in desperate need of pilots for sometime.

DanRoman
01-22-2019, 10:06 AM
Mad Dog retiring at AA is going to help stop the retirement/staffing bleeding at AA for a good while. Def wonít be in desperate need of pilots for sometime.

You do realize that flying will still be happening, just in different aircraft, right?

bigtime209
01-22-2019, 10:14 AM
Mad Dog retiring at AA is going to help stop the retirement/staffing bleeding at AA for a good while. Def won’t be in desperate need of pilots for sometime.

I mean...it's not like there are any replacement aircraft orders forthcoming :rolleyes:

Timbird
01-22-2019, 01:09 PM
Mad Dog retiring at AA is going to help stop the retirement/staffing bleeding at AA for a good while. Def wonít be in desperate need of pilots for sometime.

The 175 has taken over ALL of the MD80 routes. AA isnít dumb when it comes to getting cheap labor to work for them.

pitchattitude
01-22-2019, 01:24 PM
The 175 has taken over ALL of the MD80 routes. AA isnít dumb when it comes to getting cheap labor to work for them.

Uh, no. At least not the flying part. Cheap labor, yes.

Cyio
01-22-2019, 02:32 PM
Mad Dog retiring at AA is going to help stop the retirement/staffing bleeding at AA for a good while. Def wonít be in desperate need of pilots for sometime.

While it is true that those pilots will need to go somewhere, AA is going to still fly the routes with different aircraft. The pilots won't just backfill every available slot AA has.

AA will need pilots, there is no question about that whatsoever. Maddogs retiring might eat up a little bit of the estimated 10,000 pilots needed over the next 10 years, but not much of it.

I think AA is pretty happy with its regional feed/military feed of pilots. Remember, they are not stupid and they are privy to lots more data then we are, so I don't see them coming up short.

NoValueAviator
01-23-2019, 04:02 AM
Canít see why youíd want massive AA hiring. Enough to support the max number of flows Envoy will let go of is optimal. Until you get your seat at the table you should want as few F-15 guys senior to you as possible.

Cyio
01-23-2019, 04:40 AM
Canít see why youíd want massive AA hiring. Enough to support the max number of flows Envoy will let go of is optimal. Until you get your seat at the table you should want as few F-15 guys senior to you as possible.

I don't recall saying I "wanted" it, just stating the facts. I feel that AA has figured out what they need and how to get it over the next 10 years. The pilots will come from their regionals and the military mostly, with some very select street hires.

TransWorld
01-23-2019, 04:11 PM
The 175 has taken over ALL of the MD80 routes. AA isnít dumb when it comes to getting cheap labor to work for them.

Huh? I donít think so. Those MD80s that have retired so far have been replaced by 737s and A320s with few exceptions.

jake cutter
01-24-2019, 09:49 AM
Can we get to the real issue of the day and figure out why people still dab in the class photo they post on FB?

Houpilot2001
01-24-2019, 02:00 PM
Can we get to the real issue of the day and figure out why people still dab in the class photo they post on FB?

Unoriginal...just my .02.

MD-11Loader
01-24-2019, 03:16 PM
Can we get to the real issue of the day and figure out why people still dab in the class photo they post on FB?

I believe theyíre called douchebags. Am I saying that right? Douchebags?

dera
01-24-2019, 03:49 PM
We didn't get a class photo. Now I feel left out :(
#dab

in2deep
01-25-2019, 03:54 PM
Can we get to the real issue of the day and figure out why people still dab in the class photo they post on FB?



Because thats what happens when you hire cfi bros who want to fly a jet at whatever cost

dera
01-25-2019, 08:22 PM
Ok, predictions about the next class drop on Monday?
I'm going for 100% 175 with DECs going to OCC.
If it has any 145 spots for FOs, I'll buy everyone here a round of beer.

boiler07
01-25-2019, 08:36 PM
They can't send them to OCC...

havick206
01-25-2019, 08:42 PM
They can't send them to OCC...

Guess you won your beer already

dera
01-25-2019, 09:29 PM
Guess you won your beer already

Note - the beer clause was only for 145 FO's :)

RomeoBravo
01-26-2019, 03:59 PM
Ok, predictions about the next class drop on Monday?

I'm going for 100% 175 with DECs going to OCC.

If it has any 145 spots for FOs, I'll buy everyone here a round of beer.



I say again. OFC/OCC. We will all know on Monday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BigZ
01-26-2019, 04:00 PM
I say again. OFC/OCC. We will all know on Monday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There is no OCC in the standing vacancy.

RomeoBravo
01-26-2019, 04:01 PM
There is no OCC in the standing vacancy.



Oh. Okay, then I stand corrected.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dera
01-26-2019, 06:28 PM
I say again. OFC/OCC. We will all know on Monday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That would mean some very unhappy cadets.

pitchattitude
01-26-2019, 08:01 PM
That would mean some very unhappy cadets.
We need more unhappy cadets. Maybe it will keep some of these others from blindly drinking the Envoy Kool Aide.

KodiakRS
01-26-2019, 08:13 PM
My guess for the next class:



DEC->OCE
~5->OFC
Rest->DFL/OFL

Soldier64
01-28-2019, 05:23 AM
No word on the class today?

NoValueAviator
01-28-2019, 06:08 AM
I heard almost 20 145s. Wonder if any of the cadets got burned with it. Trying to get the breakdown now.

wiz5422
01-28-2019, 06:16 AM
I heard almost 20 145s. Wonder if any of the cadets got burned with it. Trying to get the breakdown now.

I love it when cadets don't get the shiny 175. Deserves them right for coming to a company that doesn't care about their employees. Stop being blinded by a new shiny jet or false promise of a flow.

Do your research..

crosscheck95
01-28-2019, 06:36 AM
I love it when cadets don't get the shiny 175. Deserves them right for coming to a company that doesn't care about their employees. Stop being blinded by a new shiny jet or false promise of a flow.

Do your research..

18 ORD 145

the 175 choices were between DFW and ORD

they told us they plan to hire 600+ in 2019 and at least half will be 145. said several classes will be all 145. see you on endless reserve.

I'm 23 so it'll be fine, long career ahead.

havick206
01-28-2019, 06:41 AM
Ok, predictions about the next class drop on Monday?
I'm going for 100% 175 with DECs going to OCC.
If it has any 145 spots for FOs, I'll buy everyone here a round of beer.

18 ORD 145

Can i claim my beer?

Soldier64
01-28-2019, 06:48 AM
18 ORD 145

the 175 choices were between DFW and ORD

they told us they plan to hire 600+ in 2019 and at least half will be 145. said several classes will be all 145. see you on endless reserve.

I'm 23 so it'll be fine, long career ahead.

How many total? Any DECS? Thanks!

smtx123
01-28-2019, 07:03 AM
18 ORD 145

the 175 choices were between DFW and ORD

they told us they plan to hire 600+ in 2019 and at least half will be 145. said several classes will be all 145. see you on endless reserve.

I'm 23 so it'll be fine, long career ahead.
What was the breakdown?

Flyboy5012
01-28-2019, 07:08 AM
first....its serves them right not deserves them right. Brush up a bit on your english. Second why be happy for negative things on people? You dont know any of these cadets or their reasons for joining envoy. If your so bitter and against Envoy why are you on the forum for them trolling? I wish more people would stick to facts and less bitter postings over their poor decisions in life.

pitchattitude
01-28-2019, 07:13 AM
first....its serves them right not deserves them right. Brush up a bit on your english. Second why be happy for negative things on people? You dont know any of these cadets or their reasons for joining envoy. If your so bitter and against Envoy why are you on the forum for them trolling? I wish more people would stick to facts and less bitter postings over their poor decisions in life.
OK. First, if youíre going to start correcting peopleís grammar, please have your own correct.

Second, donít create new accounts just to troll someone else. You lose credibility.

Flyboy5012
01-28-2019, 07:22 AM
OK. First, if youíre going to start correcting peopleís grammar, please have your own correct.

Second, donít create new accounts just to troll someone else. You lose credibility.
I just joined these forums today as I am about to start with Envoy soon so that is why new account. And Again you sound like a very bitter individual and I am trying to understand why. Either way congrats to all the new cadets today on moving up to Jets!!

pitchattitude
01-28-2019, 07:35 AM
I just joined these forums today as I am about to start with Envoy soon so that is why new account. And Again you sound like a very bitter individual and I am trying to understand why. Either way congrats to all the new cadets today on moving up to Jets!!

Well, if you would read whatís going on here, you would understand. Donít say you werenít warned when you start getting bitter after you get Envoyed.

FlyGuy2112
01-28-2019, 07:37 AM
What was the breakdown?

It was 18 145 ord, 9 either dfw or ord 175, and 5 ord DEC.

NoValueAviator
01-28-2019, 07:42 AM
when recruitment blows through the schools now itís ďas a cadet you WILL (almost certainly) get the 175, life WILL (probably/definitely) be great, and you WILL (this does not constitute a binding agreement) be laughing in Dallas at the old guys getting divorces because of commute to rsv in NYC, now come sit in the left seat of our brand new 175 and get some right swipable selfies.Ē Not in what theyíre saying but more in terms of the impression they want to give. Itís understanable to have some schadenfreude



I would also like to claim my beer from dera

BigZ
01-28-2019, 08:06 AM
I would also like to claim my beer from dera

Yeah, about that....

dera, the folks are lining up for the beers!

Remember how a while back I cautioned you about using logic and numbers to predict future? We've all been there.

Varsity
01-28-2019, 08:08 AM
I just joined these forums today as I am about to start with Envoy soon so that is why new account. And Again you sound like a very bitter individual and I am trying to understand why. Either way congrats to all the new cadets today on moving up to Jets!!

You have no idea what you're getting into.

FlyGuy2112
01-28-2019, 10:28 AM
I just joined these forums today as I am about to start with Envoy soon so that is why new account. And Again you sound like a very bitter individual and I am trying to understand why. Either way congrats to all the new cadets today on moving up to Jets!!

Do yourself a favor and delete the account and donít read the junk on here.

Johngalt134
01-28-2019, 10:50 AM
It was 18 145 ord, 9 either dfw or ord 175, and 5 ord DEC.

Any idea how many Cadets were in the class?

KodiakRS
01-28-2019, 10:58 AM
18 ORD 145

Can i claim my beer?

I was pretty far off as well so if you catch me on an overnight I'd be happy to buy you one.

All this hiring into the 145 is kind puzzling though. Is the company just putting them there to get warm bodies on the seniority list in anticipation of increased attrition or are they planning for something we don't know about yet?

NoValueAviator
01-28-2019, 11:06 AM
They love overhiring into the 145, itís just an Envoy thing. A year and a half ago they had 70+ guys on reserve daily in Chicago on the 145 for a number of months. Nothing came of it.

Some of those guys are still stuck on reserve in Dallas today lol

pitchattitude
01-28-2019, 11:22 AM
They love overhiring into the 145, itís just an Envoy thing. A year and a half ago they had 70+ guys on reserve daily in Chicago on the 145 for a number of months. Nothing came of it.

Some of those guys are still stuck on reserve in Dallas today lol
Yeah, all those guys sitting on reserve really donít help the company with its goal of getting guys to captain. Theyíre just spreading the hours out over more people so it takes them longer to to 950. So the 175 guys are flying and get displaced into the 145, at least for a few months until they can get back to the 175. Means theyíre not flying the line and paying for more sim time and instructors.

dragongoliath
01-28-2019, 12:27 PM
Or maybe they will displace all the crj Pilots... where theyíll go? Probably 90% of them will take the 175 unless for NYC or MIA. No need to hire many 175 with the upcoming crj displacement.

wiz5422
01-28-2019, 12:36 PM
first....its serves them right not deserves them right. Brush up a bit on your english. Second why be happy for negative things on people? You dont know any of these cadets or their reasons for joining envoy. If your so bitter and against Envoy why are you on the forum for them trolling? I wish more people would stick to facts and less bitter postings over their poor decisions in life.


Looks like you need a little brushing up also. My mistake was a train of thought error (thinking one sentence and going a different path) while your mistake was more of a grammatical error.

Try again Einstein. Enjoy the 145 and the beating while you are here.

pitchattitude
01-28-2019, 12:39 PM
Or maybe they will displace all the crj Pilots... where theyíll go? Probably 90% of them will take the 175 unless for NYC or MIA. No need to hire many 175 with the upcoming crj displacement.
Still more than twice as many 175s coming as CRJs leaving. And about 40% of CRJ Captains will flow by the end of the year. Still going to need quite a few more 175 pilots off the street.

dera
01-28-2019, 12:42 PM
Yep, if you're near STL in the next few weeks hit me up, beer is on me.
I was just hoping to get more DFW 175 guys below me on the seniority list :)