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View Full Version : Bypass and Upgrade Requirements


MainlineorSuici
08-27-2018, 03:38 PM
As of the 11-18 Vacancy, nearly every single flying First Officer at Compass was Bypassed. newhires in Indoc training are being awarded CA positions while over 200 FOs are being bypassed.

Whatís going on? Is this an issue of hours? Are we really hurting that bad for qualified FOs?

Also - is it time to change the CBA upgrade minimums? Requiring 1500ME/2000TT or 1000ME/2500TT is not going to work with the pilots on our seniority list. We are on a very fast track to hire street captains.
What seems worse: a compass CA thatís never flown at compass before, or a compass CA that has only 1000 SIC at compass?

What are the company and union doing to address this sudden issue? The rate at which this problem sprang up is concerning.
I think I speak for all of us when I say we do not want street captains.


Big Rooshki
08-27-2018, 04:09 PM
As of the 11-18 Vacancy, nearly every single flying First Officer at Compass was Bypassed. newhires in Indoc training are being awarded CA positions while over 200 FOs are being bypassed.

Whatís going on? Is this an issue of hours? Are we really hurting that bad for qualified FOs?

Also - is it time to change the CBA upgrade minimums? Requiring 1500ME/2000TT or 1000ME/2500TT is not going to work with the pilots on our seniority list. We are on a very fast track to hire street captains.
What seems worse: a compass CA thatís never flown at compass before, or a compass CA that has only 1000 SIC at compass?

What are the company and union doing to address this sudden issue? The rate at which this problem sprang up is concerning.
I think I speak for all of us when I say we do not want street captains.






Your points are legitimate.


Company doesn't care - they'll hire street captains.


Union guys don't care - they've got their union positions on their resume - that's all that matters to them.

Excargodog
08-27-2018, 04:19 PM
Seriously, do we have that many in indoc with 1000 hrs of 121 time?

Clearly, it was predictable that the 6-7 month hiring freeze was going to stress the company hiring criteria and eventually bringing people in with only 25 hrs of ME and RATP with low total hours was going to perhaps lead to out of seniority order upgrades if it wasn't changed, but are we really there ALREADY?

How many of those 200 already have their 1000 of 121 but simply lack ME ot TT?


Beechnutz
08-27-2018, 04:29 PM
How do I find out my seniority number?

TillerTemptress
08-27-2018, 06:52 PM
I'd chill out, I don't think we have actual street captains yet. That latest vacancy bid has some fishy stuff going on. One of the CA is going to be training only and not sure about JC but he worked at Compass and came back(?) - might just be doing instructing or something?

Irregardless, CA always goes quite a bit more junior whenever they run a class that large. I expect they won't be quite so large in the future,but we'll see. I was bypassed here and all it meant was when I did upgrade, I spent less time on reserve. It'll be okay, really.
Also, your post comes off as a bit entitled to me. Every captain here met the same minimums, what is so special about you that we have to change them just for you? If you came to Compass at 1000TT on a special Embry Riddle 141 thing, I don't think having to be 2500TT is so terrible. The rest of us had to get 1500TT before starting.
If you had the 1500TT, you'll have 2500TT/1000 turbine in the plane at the same time... first you got a special exemption from the FAA for the ATP mins, now you should get a special captain exemption? Nah. You can have 2500TT like all the other captains.

jungle driver
08-27-2018, 07:48 PM
I'd chill out, I don't think we have actual street captains yet. That latest vacancy bid has some fishy stuff going on. One of the CA is going to be training only and not sure about JC but he worked at Compass and came back(?) - might just be doing instructing or something?

Irregardless, CA always goes quite a bit more junior whenever they run a class that large. I expect they won't be quite so large in the future,but we'll see. I was bypassed here and all it meant was when I did upgrade, I spent less time on reserve. It'll be okay, really.
Also, your post comes off as a bit entitled to me. Every captain here met the same minimums, what is so special about you that we have to change them just for you? If you came to Compass at 1000TT on a special Embry Riddle 141 thing, I don't think having to be 2500TT is so terrible. The rest of us had to get 1500TT before starting.
If you had the 1500TT, you'll have 2500TT/1000 turbine in the plane at the same time... first you got a special exemption from the FAA for the ATP mins, now you should get a special captain exemption? Nah. You can have 2500TT like all the other captains.

^^^This^^^

Its time for you to upgrade so suddenly its an issue?

TillerTemptress
08-27-2018, 07:53 PM
^^^This^^^

Its time for you to upgrade so suddenly its an issue?

Yeah it's a big responsibility and sorry but the mins just aren't that high.
How many diverts/medicals/true airplane emergencies have you even dealt with after 1000 hours in the plane? How many go arounds have you done? Windshear encounters? You'll be flying single pilot too and doing IOE and teaching landings and doing all kinds of sorts of things you never imagined, trust me. Nobody "owes" you an upgrade. It's not something you earn, your number simply comes up and you meet the minimum requirements. Now you're saying you want the minimum requirements lowered.
Sorry... you can meet the same minimums the rest of us did.

And what do you want the union to do? Amend the CBA? That would require an agreement with the company... it's not like they can just force the company to the table and say "you have to sign this LOA!" Contract isn't amendable for a few more years now.. If you're getting bypassed you'll just sit less reserve. Why be in such a hurry to give up your QOL? And the PIC hours don't matter, we have plenty of FO's getting hired at Delta or CA with very low PIC.

BobbyLeeSwagger
08-27-2018, 08:31 PM
And the PIC hours don't matter, we have plenty of FO's getting hired at Delta or CA with very low PIC.

Yeah tell me about it, 1200pic + all the other goodies, crickets. Maybe I should have been going to Greece every other weekend like my senior buddy who upgraded later.

Taco280AI
08-27-2018, 08:37 PM
They know you weren't representing the snack basket to your full potential and want to see you step it up with premium basket options. Then, you'll get the call.

VIRotate
08-27-2018, 11:57 PM
Everyone needs to calm down a second. We aren't even close to street CAs just yet. Those two were coming back after an LOA. One was a LCA here on top of that.

Fr8Thrust
08-28-2018, 12:02 AM
The mins are:
2500 TT & 1000 121/jet/commuter
or
2000T and 1500 multi.

If you think the mins are too high, thatís because you decided to join a regional <1500 hours. Nobody owes you any favors just because you took a shortcut to the right seat. Thatís the bed you laid yourself in.

I personally wouldnít want an E170 PIC with less time than that. You learn a lot in 500 hours (<3000TT) that you canít obtain via CA UPG. To think youíre not learning is a poor attitude to have.

MainlineorSuici
08-28-2018, 12:21 AM
I'd chill out, I don't think we have actual street captains yet . . .

. . . Irregardless, CA always goes quite a bit more junior whenever they run a class that large. I expect they won't be quite so large in the future,but we'll see. I was bypassed here and all it meant was when I did upgrade, I spent less time on reserve. It'll be okay, really.
Also, your post comes off as a bit entitled to me. Every captain here met the same minimums, what is so special about you that we have to change them just for you? If you came to Compass at 1000TT on a special Embry Riddle 141 thing, I don't think having to be 2500TT is so terrible. The rest of us had to get 1500TT before starting.
If you had the 1500TT, you'll have 2500TT/1000 turbine in the plane at the same time... first you got a special exemption from the FAA for the ATP mins, now you should get a special captain exemption? Nah. You can have 2500TT like all the other captains.

Iíd say itís more that Iím eager than entitled. I worked hard (Even got my instrument rating twice ;)) to get a RATP and into the 121 world so young (is that RATP thing a Ďspecial exemptioní or a smart career choice?). I chose to go to compass because at the time it had the fastest movement and according to the CPZ recruiters, Iíd upgrade at 1000 SIC.

Iím not demanding an upgrade because I believe Iím entitled to it, but I certainly would like to hope that there may be a way to make it happen sooner. Heck, getting on at a major 2 months sooner could be $100K in my pocket when Iím 65. Why wouldnít I be interested in doing/learning everything I can to expedite advancement? I know a guy thatís 24 years old flying widebodies at UA. I wonít achieve that, but is it wrong to be eager to achieve similar success and hold myself to a similar standard? This is a competitive industry.

Let me draw a similar scenario. Letís say I was stuck in the hiring freeze on reserve at compass. Say I was here presenting a logical argument that because we are overstaffed, more of us reserve guys should be awarded LCR, so us commuters can be at home more. Am I entitled for hoping the company would look into awarding more LCR, even though you may have had to rough it on RAP1 a year before I was here?

The ďThe people before you had it worse so it shouldnít change/you havenít earned itĒ attitude is holding this industry back. Iím sure when you were upgrading at compass at 2500TT, there was some 2009 DOH Expressjet FO that was cursing your name for upgrading so quick. Those guys started at $25 an hour, so is it unfair that I started at $35? Am I entitled for thinking no airline pilot should be paid less than $45?
I understand that people have worked much harder than me and paid many more dues than me, and I respect that experience and sacrifice, but thatís no reason for me to limit myself in an industry thatís rapidly changing.

Back to the subject, though, looks like I was mistaken and those two NHs were special circumstances so I really should Ďchill out a bití like you said.

BUT, the real point of my post was to say... isnít it smarter to upgrade the guys that have been flying CPZ for 2.5 years, rather than start letting SkyWest FOís from ORD walk into our left seat, hurting our own pilot group? Just doesnít seem like a thing the union pilot would prefer. Iíd rather see our own guys upgrading, even if I wasnít one of them. I wouldnít have even made this thread if I didnít think we were on a fast track to street captains But, I guess itís more fun to make this about me and how entitled I am to want such a thing for my greedy self

week
08-28-2018, 12:37 AM
And the PIC hours don't matter, we have plenty of FO's getting hired at Delta or CA with very low PIC.

We call those things Ďgirlsí



And what do you want the union to do? Amend the CBA? That would require an agreement with the company... it's not like they can just force the company to the table and say "you have to sign this LOA!" Contract isn't amendable for a few more years now.. If you're getting bypassed you'll just sit less reserve. Why be in such a hurry to give up your QOL? And the PIC hours don't matter, we have plenty of FO's getting hired at Delta or CA with very low PIC.

Have you read the CBA? It states ďThe Company will meet and confer with the MEC Chairman
before waiving any of the above upgrade requirements. If waived, such requirements shall be waived in Seniority
order.Ē

Nothing needs to be changed. Also, did I read the same post? At what point did this guy say the company owes him anything?

Fr8Thrust
08-28-2018, 12:46 AM
Maybe this will help: Just because someone else had to walk to school in the snow, uphill, both ways, while you took a bus, doesnít change the fact that you both need a HS diploma to get a job.

I for one would like to know the ďspecial circumstancesĒ surrounding those upgrade awards.

Sure, bypassing is wrong, but lowering the crew experience level is more wrong.

MainlineorSuici
08-28-2018, 12:51 AM
How many diverts/medicals/true airplane emergencies have you even dealt with after 1000 hours in the plane? How many go arounds have you done? Windshear encounters? You'll be flying single pilot too and doing IOE and teaching landings and doing all kinds of sorts of things you never imagined, trust me. Nobody "owes" you an upgrade.

Ah, yes, if only I had towed banners for 500 more hours before coming to CPZ. Then accepting an upgrade at 1000 SIC would be much safer :rolleyes: Remember, those extra 500 hours can come from anywhere. Wasnít expecting people to become so emotional over this, that was not my intention.

Taco280AI
08-28-2018, 04:01 AM
I could buy into part of your argument until you started on about getting to a major sooner and getting another $100k, plus knowing some 24 year old flying widebodies at United. Comes off as your reasons really aren't about experience, safety and street captains... you just want to move up faster and get more $$$. That's where I see the entitlement issue.

And I have my restricted as well and will need 1500 at the company before I can move up. But my experience isn't from going to some school, it's from the military and flying air assault missions in combat environments in a 22,000 pound ME, turbine helicopter.

Put in your time, pay your dues, keep a good attitude and you'll move up. Anything else is unwanted attention.

BobbyLeeSwagger
08-28-2018, 05:09 AM
They know you weren't representing the snack basket to your full potential and want to see you step it up with premium basket options. Then, you'll get the call.

True, true. Dieting sucks, its way more fun to be fat. I miss turning the airplane on in the morning, cracking open a pack of swedish fish and telling my skinny FO: "you know what the difference is between me and you? ... I made this look good." :cool:

Hard to say that opening a bag of lettuce. :mad:

ColoradoAviator
08-28-2018, 05:40 AM
A buddy is looking at Compass after military life. He should have 3500 total time, 2500 heavy turbine, and 1200 turbine PIC by the time he makes the switch. Does Compass require 1000 hours with the company before upgrade with those quals?

jungle driver
08-28-2018, 08:58 AM
A buddy is looking at Compass after military life. He should have 3500 total time, 2500 heavy turbine, and 1200 turbine PIC by the time he makes the switch. Does Compass require 1000 hours with the company before upgrade with those quals?

you need 1000 hours of 121 or 135 before you can upgrade. but that will be the same no matter where he goes.

Beechnutz
08-28-2018, 09:11 AM
The mins are:
2500 TT & 1000 121/jet/commuter
or
2000T and 1500 multi.


Let me get this straight itís either not both?

Iíve got 2500tt and 1800 Multi with only 550 Jet time. So can I put in for the next vacancy?

jtsastre
08-28-2018, 09:22 AM
Ah, yes, if only I had towed banners for 500 more hours before coming to CPZ. Then accepting an upgrade at 1000 SIC would be much safer :rolleyes: Remember, those extra 500 hours can come from anywhere. Wasnít expecting people to become so emotional over this, that was not my intention.

Iím assuming since youíre young that youíre not married, kids? Iím only bringing that up because those things bring perspective to life. Money, flying, careers, etc. arenít the end-allís to life youíll find out. When youíre old Iíll doubt youíll look back at how quickly you were able to move up through the airlines or how much money you made/make. I hope youíll look back and reminisce at the journey you took and the lives and relationships you impacted on a daily basis.

Slow down and enjoy life, I know, I sound like an old man.

jungle driver
08-28-2018, 09:44 AM
Let me get this straight itís either not both?

Iíve got 2500tt and 1800 Multi with only 550 Jet time. So can I put in for the next vacancy?

The mins are:
1000 hours of 121
plus

2500 TT & 1000 multi.
or
2000TT and 1500 multi.

you need the 1000 of 121 either way. basically you can cut down on total time if you have more multi time.

Fr8Thrust
08-28-2018, 02:59 PM
you need 1000 hours of 121 or 135 before you can upgrade. but that will be the same no matter where he goes.

Military TPIC can count for part of it.

Beechnutz
08-28-2018, 06:35 PM
Ok thanks for the clarification guys.

NeverFlexTO
08-28-2018, 09:39 PM
Everyone needs to calm down a second. We aren't even close to street CAs just yet. Those two were coming back after an LOA. One was a LCA here on top of that.

So a previous LCA who was sent back/let go/resigned from Delta qualifies as an LOA...seems like something shady going on to me...

Sets a precedent for future similar instances if such one were to happen

poutine
08-29-2018, 08:56 AM
So a previous LCA who was sent back/let go/resigned from Delta qualifies as an LOA...seems like something shady going on to me...

Sets a precedent for future similar instances if such one were to happen

You can confirmed he was sent back from Delta? Or just assumption?

He might be back here to be your next chief. Who knows.

NeverFlexTO
08-29-2018, 09:49 AM
You can confirmed he was sent back from Delta? Or just assumption?

He might be back here to be your next chief. Who knows.

Idk, but he was at Delta and now heís not...Delta doesnít own Compass so why would he become the next JS? ...and the only people who have ever left Delta and come back to Compass were due to training or personality issues. Not saying heís a bad guy, just seems pretty straightforward what the reason(s) may be...

poutine
08-29-2018, 03:58 PM
Idk, but he was at Delta and now heís not...Delta doesnít own Compass so why would he become the next JS? ...and the only people who have ever left Delta and come back to Compass were due to training or personality issues. Not saying heís a bad guy, just seems pretty straightforward what the reason(s) may be...

Time will tell, he cant hide.

ThePlaneSaidSo
08-29-2018, 10:45 PM
Ever since the last award Iíve been watching the revenge of the sit thread thinking ďwhen is everybody going to FREAK OUT and tell eveybody they know that CP is hiring street captains?Ē Then finally I found this thread [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yrbroom
08-30-2018, 06:26 PM
Ever since the last award Iíve been watching the revenge of the sit thread thinking ďwhen is everybody going to FREAK OUT and tell eveybody they know that CP is hiring street captains?Ē Then finally I found this thread

Except they're not

Slowhawk
08-30-2018, 09:50 PM
The only people freaking out are a couple captains OP triggered :D

ThePlaneSaidSo
08-30-2018, 10:57 PM
Except they're not



Iím just referring to the vey first comment on this thread, lol. Before he realized what was going on....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Motoxer66
08-31-2018, 08:25 AM
Does anyone have input on how the hiring/upgrade strategy might change here at CP when the majors/legacies spool up hiring again?



It seems like we have a handful of (121/135)1000+ SIC's that are short of the CBA mins, who will be qualified at TBD date. Who's gonna fill the upgrade classes if our pool isn't supplying sufficient candidates? Also for those who do upgrade in the next few months how is that gonna affect reserve times?

Excargodog
08-31-2018, 02:35 PM
Does anyone have input on how the hiring/upgrade strategy might change here at CP when the majors/legacies spool up hiring again?



It seems like we have a handful of (121/135)1000+ SIC's that are short of the CBA mins, who will be qualified at TBD date. Who's gonna fill the upgrade classes if our pool isn't supplying sufficient candidates? Also for those who do upgrade in the next few months how is that gonna affect reserve times?

I would like to think that management has lead turned this, although why I WOULD think that after the stupid hiring freeze - well, I,m not too sure. But they have the data and can pretty well predict how many of our existing FOs will hit 1000 121 hours before they hit company mins for either ME or TT.

If they have enough high TT or high ME time guys/gals in the mix to keep adequate captains then some guys will wind up lagging and some leading their company seniority in the upgrades by up to six months but the flying schedule will still work, and eventually - when they do upgrade - the latecomers will push the early birds lower in bidding priority. They may sit reserve a fairly long time. Of course that's captain reserve with captain pay and captain TPIC when they do fly.

But if there aren't enough guys in the mix who will have company TT or ME mins when they hit 1000 121 hours, and there are not enough upgradable S to meet the demand, either company mins will need to come down or they will have to do street captains.