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Bluedriver
08-28-2018, 06:36 AM
First pairings under the new rules and the union puts out a warning email....


TiredSoul
08-28-2018, 08:22 AM
Whatís a pairing...

RiddleEagle18
08-28-2018, 08:28 AM
They never said industry leading pairings.

They said industry leading paring language. Which it is.

The reality is the company was taking over the pairing build with or without the CBA. We secured protections in the cba we wouldnít have otherwise.


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Bluedriver
08-28-2018, 08:45 AM
Awesome! Winning!

Triple face-palm.

nuball5
08-28-2018, 08:57 AM
Glad I bid RSV in October...I'm sure many will now by choice. On the 190 side I'm not sure how they could get worse, but we'll see. We already have plenty of 4 leg days with 2 hour plus sits in them.

hilltopflyer
08-28-2018, 12:09 PM
This next month is going to be terrible. Why anyone has any faith in this company or cba is sad... the first time this new cba has its chance to show the industry leading language it has, it fails miserably.

seekingblue
08-28-2018, 12:51 PM
This next month is going to be terrible. Why anyone has any faith in this company or cba is sad... the first time this new cba has its chance to show the industry leading language it has, it fails miserably.

I've heard the pairings are bad. But "bad" is a relative term, depending on what each person wants. Unless it's more SDQ/STI/POS then it's horrific....

Supposedly, most high-powered 1 days are gone, and most 15hr 3 days are built into 4/5 day trips.

Bilbo T Baggins
08-28-2018, 12:58 PM
First pairings under the new rules and the union puts out a warning email....

What email? What does it say?

edit- and where are you seeing these pairings? I didn't think they were up until the 1st of the month?

say again
08-28-2018, 12:59 PM
I get **** trips already... I guess I'll wait and see how much ****tier they will get.

Bluedriver
08-28-2018, 05:22 PM
I've heard the pairings are bad. But "bad" is a relative term, depending on what each person wants. Unless it's more SDQ/STI/POS then it's horrific....

Supposedly, most high-powered 1 days are gone, and most 15hr 3 days are built into 4/5 day trips.

The 1 day high powered pairings gone and 15 hour 2-leg 3 days built into 4-5 day trips is exactly what I'm expecting.

I agree, the beauty of any individual pairing is in the eye of the beholder... One mans trash is in fact another man's treasure.

CaptCoolHand
08-29-2018, 02:23 AM
This next month is going to be terrible. Why anyone has any faith in this company or cba is sad... the first time this new cba has its chance to show the industry leading language it has, it fails miserably.

The company was gonna take the reins on this CBA or no CBA.

What could possibly go wrong with a 8:40 hr block 4leg east coast day?

rvr1800
08-29-2018, 02:39 AM
The company was gonna take the reins on this CBA or no CBA.

What could possibly go wrong with a 8:40 hr block 4leg east coast day?

*5 leg

......

CaptCoolHand
08-29-2018, 02:43 AM
*5 leg

......

This is comical too. How do they think theyíre gonna fit 5 legs into a 12.5hr day or less?

October is gonna be an epic irop of biblical proportions without a cloud in the sky.

rvr1800
08-29-2018, 03:25 AM
This is comical too. How do they think theyíre gonna fit 5 legs into a 12.5hr day or less?

October is gonna be an epic irop of biblical proportions without a cloud in the sky.

You got that right. Glad I have vacation.

Iím guessing something like BOS-JFK-IAD-JFK-BUF-BOS. What could go wrong with that??

feltf4
08-29-2018, 04:17 AM
Wait until the LGB and MCO boys and girls see their pairings....

hilltopflyer
08-29-2018, 06:02 AM
You got that right. Glad I have vacation.

Iím guessing something like BOS-JFK-IAD-JFK-BUF-BOS. What could go wrong with that??

I would love this! Iíll get paid to not fly more than usual. Good thing I have my emergency assignments all filled up!

pilotpayne
08-29-2018, 08:32 AM
This is comical too. How do they think theyíre gonna fit 5 legs into a 12.5hr day or less?

October is gonna be an epic irop of biblical proportions without a cloud in the sky.

You know they will max everything out with very little buffers so they can hire as little as possible. Heck this month I had 3 reserve assignments that will not be legal on September 1st. There is no way they wonít f this up and yet nobody will be held responsible.

LoudFastRules
08-30-2018, 03:31 PM
They never said industry leading pairings.

They said industry leading paring language. Which it is.

The reality is the company was taking over the pairing build with or without the CBA. We secured protections in the cba we wouldnít have otherwise.


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Hmmm. We had this neat thing negotiated, called a CBA. You'd think they would have maybe addressed this issue with some industry standard (some have, some don't) language, like pilots will CONTINUE to build the pairings - just like they have been.

Ya know, when all this "Industry leading pairing language" malarky was being thrown irresponsibly around, I pretty much assumed it meant that we were re-assuming the responsibility of building the pairings ourselves.

Without that ability, the language is meaningless and worthless. Putting extreme outer boundaries on the ********y things ********y people can do to us by treating us like ****** is not exactly something to celebrate as "industry-leading".

AND YES: I did emphasize that pilots building pairings was one of my top priorities in all surveys and communications with reps.

As a life-long union member, I am sorry to say that ALPA totally screwed the pooch on this issue.

RiddleEagle18
08-30-2018, 03:47 PM
Name 3 airlines that let pilots build the Pairings. Iíll wait.


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queue
08-30-2018, 05:00 PM
Glad I voted No for this horrible contract. 78% are to blame for their RJ mentality and defeatism.

Bozo the pilot
08-30-2018, 06:43 PM
This next month is going to be terrible. Why anyone has any faith in this company or cba is sad... the first time this new cba has its chance to show the industry leading language it has, it fails miserably.

Have you seen the pairings yet? Where are they?

Bozo the pilot
08-30-2018, 06:46 PM
Hmmm. We had this neat thing negotiated, called a CBA. You'd think they would have maybe addressed this issue with some industry standard (some have, some don't) language, like pilots will CONTINUE to build the pairings - just like they have been.

Ya know, when all this "Industry leading pairing language" malarky was being thrown irresponsibly around, I pretty much assumed it meant that we were re-assuming the responsibility of building the pairings ourselves.

Without that ability, the language is meaningless and worthless. Putting extreme outer boundaries on the ********y things ********y people can do to us by treating us like ****** is not exactly something to celebrate as "industry-leading".

AND YES: I did emphasize that pilots building pairings was one of my top priorities in all surveys and communications with reps.

As a life-long union member, I am sorry to say that ALPA totally screwed the pooch on this issue.

You want a hanky? :rolleyes:

BeatNavy
08-30-2018, 06:48 PM
Where are they?

In the toilet.

BeatNavy
08-30-2018, 06:48 PM
You want a hanky? :rolleyes:

No, we want a good contract. Guess thatís asking too much.

Bozo the pilot
08-30-2018, 06:56 PM
No, we want a good contract. Guess thatís asking too much.

Nothing would have made us happy Navy. An October pairing hasnt even been published and its armageddon already?
What did you expect? They cant even cater airplanes. :D

RiddleEagle18
08-30-2018, 07:02 PM
This entire discussion has ZERO to do with the cba.

The pairing protections in our CBA are absolutely industry leading. Full stop.

Now if you think the company taking over the pairing build and just the general adjustment to the new CBA will take a while for everyone to figure out, then yes I agree with you. Will there be a few months of growing pains on the companies side AND our side? Of course.

Good deals went away, new good deals will arise. Seniority strategies will adjust and everyone will settle into the new rules.

New rules, new game to be figured out.


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elmetal
08-30-2018, 07:11 PM
This entire discussion has ZERO to do with the cba.

The pairing protections in our CBA are absolutely industry leading. Full stop.

Now if you think the company taking over the pairing build and just the general adjustment to the new CBA will take a while for everyone to figure out, then yes I agree with you. Will there be a few months of growing pains on the companies side AND our side? Of course.

Good deals went away, new good deals will arise. Seniority strategies will adjust and everyone will settle into the new rules.

New rules, new game to be figured out.


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what are some of these pairing protections that are "industry leading?"

RiddleEagle18
08-30-2018, 07:30 PM
Max connect times
Max segments
No more duty periods than days
Commutable pairing requirements(no one has these)
Pairing distribution(huge, no one else has this)
AVL(affects pairing build)
TLV restrictions(changes pairing build)
Min duty AND min day both
New day at 0100(best by a long shot)

All of these thing have an affect on what types of pairings the company builds.




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RiddleEagle18
08-30-2018, 07:35 PM
Itís not letting me edit for some reason. Thatís only some of them.

Hours of service.
Red eye protections

Iím sure there is more I canít even think of right now.


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Jet Streem
08-31-2018, 03:54 AM
RiddleEagle18

It sounds like you have some really good stuff in there. Could you provide some of the numbers, context and simplified detail? For instance, max connect times, there is a big difference between 1.5 hours and 3 hours.

fadec
08-31-2018, 07:33 AM
As an outside observer "industry leading pairing language" sounds a lot like "who needs trip rigs anyway". Is that about right?

nuball5
08-31-2018, 07:52 AM
Go to Flica..."view pairings" and you can take a look at your base/seat's pairings for October.

BluesClues
08-31-2018, 08:22 AM
As an outside observer "industry leading pairing language" sounds a lot like "who needs trip rigs anyway". Is that about right?

No weíre pretty rigged:

1:2 Duty
1:3.5 TAFB
5 hour average duty period
5 hour average day
Plus some night stuff

Bluedriver
08-31-2018, 10:32 AM
Go to Flica..."view pairings" and you can take a look at your base/seat's pairings for October.

What are your observations? I won't be able to look until possibly Tuesday or Wednesday.

PasserOGas
08-31-2018, 10:44 AM
What are your observations? I won't be able to look until possibly Tuesday or Wednesday.

It actually doesn't look that bad. The old 10 hr 3 days appear unchanged. I was concerned about them being "nested". There are some different pairings than before but nothing struck me as any worse/better than before.

The 5hr calender day rig is missing so you will have to submit for those. It seems like fewer 2 days but that could be my imagination.

Almost like those pairing construction rules added nothing to the pilots. But I know that can't be true. ALPA was hopping up and down over how great they were.

nuball5
08-31-2018, 10:45 AM
What are your observations? I won't be able to look until possibly Tuesday or Wednesday.

Overall I think it definitely needs work. The 190 has a lot of 3-4 legs days and even some 5 leg days thrown in there. (I only found one pairing where you operate all 5 legs). Winter IROP's will be fun. Airbus guys can speak for themselves about their pairings.

PasserOGas
08-31-2018, 10:53 AM
Overall I think it definitely needs work. The 190 has a lot of 3-4 legs days and even some 5 leg days thrown in there. (I only found one pairing where you operate all 5 legs). Winter IROP's will be fun. Airbus guys can speak for themselves about their pairings.

Maybe that's why all the BOS 190 CA's who negotiated our CBA bid onto the bus...

CaptCoolHand
08-31-2018, 10:56 AM
Go to Flica..."view pairings" and you can take a look at your base/seat's pairings for October.

I tried this and failed. Whatís the trick?

I can only get to sept 30

Disregard... found it under trade board

RiddleEagle18
08-31-2018, 11:04 AM
Type in the date

10/01/18

Or 01OCT


You canít click view all pairings. They wonít show. Have to do it by individual date.


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nuball5
08-31-2018, 11:05 AM
I tried this and failed. Whatís the trick?

I can only get to sept 30

I never use the mobile Flica...try the desktop version.

"View or Print Pairings"
"Pairing and/or Date"
"10/1 etc...

goose15
08-31-2018, 11:05 AM
I tried this and failed. Whatís the trick?

I can only get to sept 30

Type in the date on the first window, like 15OCT, then click view details.

BeatNavy
08-31-2018, 11:20 AM
Type in the date

10/01/18

Or 01OCT


You canít click view all pairings. They wonít show. Have to do it by individual date.


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Under trades between crew members, click view all pairings, in the pop up make it 1 oct to 31 oct, and you can see them all.

RiddleEagle18
08-31-2018, 11:21 AM
Under trades between crew members, click view all pairings, in the pop up make it 1 oct to 31 oct, and you can see them all.



Nice!


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CaptCoolHand
08-31-2018, 11:30 AM
Lots of very high time 4-5 days in Mco on the 190.

Should be good for some extra days off in the month, but works gonna be work.

Softpayman
08-31-2018, 12:06 PM
Overall I think it definitely needs work. The 190 has a lot of 3-4 legs days and even some 5 leg days thrown in there. (I only found one pairing where you operate all 5 legs). Winter IROP's will be fun. Airbus guys can speak for themselves about their pairings.

Because these will be the pairings they use in the winter.

Softpayman
08-31-2018, 12:08 PM
I agree with an above poster. Seems like fewer 2 day trips (in JFK at least).

Still see quite a few west coast 3 days that will now pay 15.... you know the ones that the company would never allow to exist post CBA.

capt707
08-31-2018, 02:37 PM
Those pairings are fíing horrific!

What did we gain in negotations to give them the power to built pairings?

CaptCoolHand
08-31-2018, 03:30 PM
Those pairings are fíing horrific!

What did we gain in negotations to give them the power to built pairings?

Nothing. They were taking the build process. CBA or not. They own the planes. They own the pairings. We set the boundaries.

EuroMexPilot
08-31-2018, 04:36 PM
Those pairings are fíing horrific!

What did we gain in negotations to give them the power to built pairings?

Can you please elaborate on your observation? I just scanned through and didn't see a huge change except a lot of 3 days that pay 15 hours now vs. 10 hours before.

nuball5
08-31-2018, 05:20 PM
Because these will be the pairings they use in the winter.

Ok sorry, Hurricane Irops then....better? Or just Jetblue irops in general.

CanoeBum
09-01-2018, 01:30 PM
Ok sorry, Hurricane Irops then....better? Or just Jetblue irops in general.

We call those VFR days

DontCallMeCindy
09-02-2018, 11:55 AM
Can you please elaborate on your observation? I just scanned through and didn't see a huge change except a lot of 3 days that pay 15 hours now vs. 10 hours before.

Tons of circadian flipsótheyíve built most of the scud that typically ends up in open time, into 4-5 day pairings.

Iím seeing a majority of trips on the 320 with total circadian flips bt early AM flying and late-night redeyesóeverything looks insanely fatiguing/extremely hard on your body. If this becomes status quo Iím honestly considering going to the 190.

Just my humble opinion on these pairings

hilltopflyer
09-02-2018, 01:14 PM
Tons of circadian flipsótheyíve built most of the scud that typically ends up in open time, into 4-5 day pairings.

Iím seeing a majority of trips on the 320 with total circadian flips bt early AM flying and late-night redeyesóeverything looks insanely fatiguing/extremely hard on your body. If this becomes status quo Iím honestly considering going to the 190.

Just my humble opinion on these pairings

If itís fatiguing call in fatigued. If enough people are fatigued because of the trip they will stop doing it. Not that hard

PasserOGas
09-02-2018, 02:15 PM
OK. That is a metric $h!t ton of 3-4 day trips. Hope everyone likes being away from home.

Another award winning CBA provision brought to you by B6ALPA.

The fun has just begun. Only 4-8 years until our next contract so get used to it. Good thing y'all we're in such a hurry to vote yes.

hilltopflyer
09-02-2018, 03:00 PM
OK. That is a metric $h!t ton of 3-4 day trips. Hope everyone likes being away from home.

Another award winning CBA provision brought to you by B6ALPA.

The fun has just begun. Only 4-8 years until our next contract so get used to it. Good thing y'all we're in such a hurry to vote yes.

That actually helps me so I like it so far.

PasserOGas
09-02-2018, 03:29 PM
That actually helps me so I like it so far.

You were having a tough time getting 3-4 day trips before?

hilltopflyer
09-02-2018, 03:48 PM
You were having a tough time getting 3-4 day trips before?

No just better 4 days ha

nuball5
09-02-2018, 05:33 PM
OK. That is a metric $h!t ton of 3-4 day trips. Hope everyone likes being away from home.

Another award winning CBA provision brought to you by B6ALPA.

The fun has just begun. Only 4-8 years until our next contract so get used to it. Good thing y'all we're in such a hurry to vote yes.

Not sure what base you're looking at but BOS 320/190 is divided up fairly evenly. About 50% of the Bus pairings in Boston are 1 and 2 days for October....e190 was about 40%. Most of the 4 day pairings in the bid packet are operated once a month, so those pairings take up more space in the packet. Whereas that ATL turn, while only listed once, is operated almost everyday.

hilltopflyer
09-02-2018, 07:22 PM
Not sure what base you're looking at but BOS 320/190 is divided up fairly evenly. About 50% of the Bus pairings in Boston are 1 and 2 days for October....e190 was about 40%. Most of the 4 day pairings in the bid packet are operated once a month, so those pairings take up more space in the packet. Whereas that ATL turn, while only listed once, is operated almost everyday.

Most of the four days havenít changed much at all... still crappy. Or at least bos 190.

nuball5
09-03-2018, 03:47 AM
Most of the four days havenít changed much at all... still crappy. Or at least bos 190.

Correct. I was just talking about pairing distribution since some thought it would be 50% 4 day trips at each base. For October at least that was proven false. I agree though....even with the redeyes and day sleeps, I'd take an Airbus 4-day over a 190 one anyday.

Bozo the pilot
09-03-2018, 06:21 AM
OK. That is a metric $h!t ton of 3-4 day trips. Hope everyone likes being away from home.

Another award winning CBA provision brought to you by B6ALPA.

The fun has just begun. Only 4-8 years until our next contract so get used to it. Good thing y'all we're in such a hurry to vote yes.

Na these are not that different- You're just looking more closely.
Take another look.

Greyhawk161
09-03-2018, 11:35 AM
LGB and MCO are the bases that were crushed by this CBA. LGB had an increase of 500% 4 and 5 day pairings with a redeye. They went from 161 one day pairings to 61. They dropped from (158) 2 day pairings to 30 this October. They have 59.9% of their pairings are 4 & 5 days with 95.4% of those having at least one redeye. Any way you slice it, it still stinks.

RiddleEagle18
09-03-2018, 12:15 PM
LGB and MCO are the bases that were crushed by this CBA. LGB had an increase of 500% 4 and 5 day pairings with a redeye. They went from 161 one day pairings to 61. They dropped from (158) 2 day pairings to 30 this October. They have 59.9% of their pairings are 4 & 5 days with 95.4% of those having at least one redeye. Any way you slice it, it still stinks.



Didnt we also just stopped a ton of intra California and west coast flying. The entire schedule changed out in LGB.


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say again
09-03-2018, 12:27 PM
Didnt we also just stopped a ton of intra California and west coast flying. The entire schedule changed out in LGB.


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No. It's the CBA's fault. Just like ATC and our delays.

Bluedriver
09-03-2018, 04:31 PM
You were having a tough time getting 3-4 day trips before?

Frankly, I'm in a large base and there are often 0-2 of the 4-days I like to bid for most weeks. So I welcome SOME additional 4-days to choose from.

PasserOGas
09-03-2018, 05:52 PM
No. It's the CBA's fault. Just like ATC and our delays.

What we know for SURE is that our pairings beat DAL, UAL, and AA. They are industry leading thanks to our industry leading scheduling.

Just ask B6ALPA. :rolleyes:

Mattio
09-05-2018, 07:55 AM
That email from the Scheduling Committee this morning says it all

"the company built the October pairings with the singular purpose of producing the least expensive pairing set possible"

"(bidding reserve) could be a viable strategy in light of the relative characteristics of the pairings"

They also warned that there may be so many people bidding reserve for October (because of how bad the pairings were) that some folks may not be able to hold reserve.....

BunkerF16
09-05-2018, 08:48 AM
"the company built the October pairings with the singular purpose of producing the least expensive pairing set possible"


That's what you'd expect them to do, right? I'd also expect that our union would have anticipated this, done some modeling during negotiations to mitigate "unintended consequences", and build language into the contract that would limit the negative affects of the resulting changes.


Surely that happened, right? Right?

dontsurf
09-05-2018, 08:59 AM
apparently people have not been actually paying attention. the scheduling changes had nothing to do with the contract. the company was taking control of the pairings starting in October 2018 no matter what. the contract had nothing to do with that. others have pointed that out, but no one seems to notice.

we should be very thankful that we have the contract and its extremely strong language regarding pairing construction (it truly is industry leading) or else things would be way, way worse.

ask your friends at united and delta what would happen if the company optimized for lowest cost. would their cba pairing construction rules prevent anything at all? no, they would not.

i know reality doesn't fit the narrative of some of the complainers on here, but there are several of us that still like to point you back toward reality sometimes. I've seen other people do it in this thread, and be ignored, so now it is my turn to do it and be ignored.

BunkerF16
09-05-2018, 09:08 AM
apparently people have not been actually paying attention. the scheduling changes had nothing to do with the contract. the company was taking control of the pairings starting in October 2018 no matter what. the contract had nothing to do with that. others have pointed that out, but no one seems to notice.

we should be very thankful that we have the contract and its extremely strong language regarding pairing construction (it truly is industry leading) or else things would be way, way worse.

ask your friends at united and delta what would happen if the company optimized for lowest cost. would their cba pairing construction rules prevent anything at all? no, they would not.

i know reality doesn't fit the narrative of some of the complainers on here, but there are several of us that still like to point you back toward reality sometimes. I've seen other people do it in this thread, and be ignored, so now it is my turn to do it and be ignored.


Know your enemy.


The bottom line is those in position of drafting language should have known what JB would do and build sufficient language into the contract to limit JB's ability to phuck the pilots.


"Industry leading language".



Lol.

PSU Flyer
09-05-2018, 10:22 PM
we should be very thankful that we have the contract and its extremely strong language regarding pairing construction (it truly is industry leading) or else things would be way, way worse.

ask your friends at united and delta what would happen if the company optimized for lowest cost. would their cba pairing construction rules prevent anything at all? no, they would not.


Let me get this straight. Delta and United donít optimize for lowest cost, but COULD since they donít have protections. JetBlue DOES optimize for lowest cost and the ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction language canít stop them from doing it. Iím not following how JetBlue pilots should be thankful. I also donít understand what the point of ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction is if it results in pairings that are worse than other companies.

CaptCoolHand
09-06-2018, 03:23 AM
Let me get this straight. Delta and United donít optimize for lowest cost, but COULD since they donít have protections. JetBlue DOES optimize for lowest cost and the ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction language canít stop them from doing it. Iím not following how JetBlue pilots should be thankful. I also donít understand what the point of ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction is if it results in pairings that are worse than other companies.

If you donít think that UAL and DAL optimize for Lowest cost Iíve got a bridge to sell you...they do however recognize the difference between cost efficiency and operational efficiency. Just for grins? What do the pairings on the 737 and 320/21 look like out of EWR and JFK for UAL and DAL?

Frankly no one thought the company would build to the utter brink simply because itís just not smart.
Last day last leg DH 15:47 Duty.
8:39 3 leggers.

Theyíve moved the margin for error to nil. One write up. One cloud over NYC. their whole operation is gonna melt.

This has way less to do with the CBA and much more to do with our management. Jb alpa told them that this build was not necessarily the most efficient just because it was efficient... jb can do it better.

aldonite7667
09-06-2018, 05:46 AM
This problem is going to take care of itself. We are on time 60% of the time. Running 15:45 duty days wonít last long. This is the company rubbing our noses in the CBA just like they do with everything else.

Bluedriver
09-06-2018, 06:19 AM
Let me get this straight. Delta and United donít optimize for lowest cost, but COULD since they donít have protections. JetBlue DOES optimize for lowest cost and the ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction language canít stop them from doing it. Iím not following how JetBlue pilots should be thankful. I also donít understand what the point of ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction is if it results in pairings that are worse than other companies.

500% this. All of this. Read it. Read it again. Think about what you've read. Stop being a moron.

Bluedriver
09-06-2018, 06:22 AM
This problem is going to take care of itself. We are on time 60% of the time. Running 15:45 duty days wonít last long. This is the company rubbing our noses in the CBA just like they do with everything else.

However, it's a LAST DAY DH that they scheduled to near 16 hours. It may result in some missed DH due to duty time, but it's a last day thing and will cost them EPS pay, but not effect the operation.

Many other ways it sure will, and I'm not about to help make this new pairings set successful in any way...

By the way, I HATE the new pairings in my base. Awful. Well done JB, I didn't think you could lose any more pilot good-will, but you figured out yet another way to do it!

aldonite7667
09-06-2018, 06:24 AM
However, it's a LAST DAY DH that they scheduled to near 16 hours. It may result in some missed DH due to duty time, but it's a last day thing and will cost them EPS pay, but not effect the operation.

Many other ways it sure will, and I'm not about to help make this new pairings set successful in any way...

By the way, I HATE the new pairings in my base. Awful. Well done JB, I didn't think you could lose any more pilot good-will, but you figured out yet another way to do it!


Agreed, I wonít help make this work.

queue
09-06-2018, 11:03 AM
Let me get this straight. Delta and United donít optimize for lowest cost, but COULD since they donít have protections. JetBlue DOES optimize for lowest cost and the ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction language canít stop them from doing it. Iím not following how JetBlue pilots should be thankful. I also donít understand what the point of ďIndustry LeadingĒ pairing construction is if it results in pairings that are worse than other companies.


78% of BJ pilots did this to this to themselves by biting off on the first TA despite many people warning them. We need to remember this failure so these same people aren't wrong again.

DontCallMeCindy
09-06-2018, 11:14 AM
However, it's a LAST DAY DH that they scheduled to near 16 hours. It may result in some missed DH due to duty time, but it's a last day thing and will cost them EPS pay, but not effect the operation.

Many other ways it sure will, and I'm not about to help make this new pairings set successful in any way...

By the way, I HATE the new pairings in my base. Awful. Well done JB, I didn't think you could lose any more pilot good-will, but you figured out yet another way to do it!

Theyíve pushed these pairings to the point that tons of pilots will be calling in fatigued per the FARs on tons of these insane trips, regardless of what our feelings are about the company.

This issue is beyond emotion at this pointóitís a matter of safety and professional integrity. We all need to remain vigilant going into that October pairing set, regardless of where we bid, because itís going to be a challenging month from the top down.

BeatNavy
09-06-2018, 11:17 AM
78% of BJ pilots did this to this to themselves by biting off on the first TA despite many people warning them. We need to remember this failure so these same people aren't wrong again.

I think it was 74%, but yeah. Special bunch at JetBlue.

queue
09-06-2018, 11:20 AM
I think it was 74%, but yeah. Special bunch at JetBlue.


I stand corrected.

seekingblue
09-06-2018, 12:20 PM
I think it was 74%, but yeah. Special bunch at JetBlue.

You are at Jetblue. Does that mean you are ďspecialĒ too?

Regardless of political affiliation, we are Americans. Regardless of YES/NO votes we are Jetblue Pilots (unless you quit.)

Why divide us further? Clearly there is much butt hurt on both sides, but why canít we agree that we need to all do better for TA2? If the 26% ****ed off the 74%, we will honestly get nothing accomplished in our next TA. Let's all work together and get DL/UA +1%

CaptCoolHand
09-06-2018, 02:26 PM
Since this was gonna happen with or without a CBA... Had this been voted down I wonder what the sentiment would be strictly under 117?

queue
09-06-2018, 04:07 PM
You are at Jetblue. Does that mean you are ďspecialĒ too?

Regardless of political affiliation, we are Americans. Regardless of YES/NO votes we are Jetblue Pilots (unless you quit.)

Why divide us further? Clearly there is much butt hurt on both sides, but why canít we agree that we need to all do better for TA2? If the 26% ****ed off the 74%, we will honestly get nothing accomplished in our next TA. Let's all work together and get DL/UA +1%


The problem is that terms such as divisiveness are just instruments of social control, group think. Division is ok and actually good. Otherwise, you get 74% that agree on a bad course of action. Instead, people need to be taught to think rather than just accept ALPA and defeatist talking points. I think it is more important to scrape all the defeatist, juicer, RJ mentality arguments that governed this failed thinking, then plaster it everywhere as a reminder of how people failed and how they will fail again. Accountability.

PasserOGas
09-10-2018, 08:08 AM
Guys, I would just like to say, after getting my pairings under the new "industry leading" rules, I take it all back.

I was so wrong and y'all were so right. The amount of flexibility in under the new rules is AMAZING. I can DROP TO ZERO!!!

Oh wait, all I got was 3-5 day trips. I have zero flexibility. That can't be correct, this CBA is awesome. B6ALPA and all you yes voters told me so. :confused:

Where before I could be home almost every night, now I am gone HALF THE MONTH. :mad:


Home run guys. Nice work. Can't wait till the rest of the industry leading provisions kick in.

nuball5
09-10-2018, 08:47 AM
Guys, I would just like to say, after getting my pairings under the new "industry leading" rules, I take it all back.

I was so wrong and y'all were so right. The amount of flexibility in under the new rules is AMAZING. I can DROP TO ZERO!!!

Oh wait, all I got was 3-5 day trips. I have zero flexibility. That can't be correct, this CBA is awesome. B6ALPA and all you yes voters told me so. :confused:

Where before I could be home almost every night, now I am gone HALF THE MONTH. :mad:


Home run guys. Nice work. Can't wait till the rest of the industry leading provisions kick in.

Happy with my schedule...not much of a change from before. Sorry you don't like yours.

jtrain609
09-10-2018, 09:18 AM
Guys, I would just like to say, after getting my pairings under the new "industry leading" rules, I take it all back.

I was so wrong and y'all were so right. The amount of flexibility in under the new rules is AMAZING. I can DROP TO ZERO!!!

Oh wait, all I got was 3-5 day trips. I have zero flexibility. That can't be correct, this CBA is awesome. B6ALPA and all you yes voters told me so. :confused:

Where before I could be home almost every night, now I am gone HALF THE MONTH. :mad:


Home run guys. Nice work. Can't wait till the rest of the industry leading provisions kick in.

I've got 18 days off and I'm a pretty junior line holder in my category.

Maybw you don't know how to bid.

seekingblue
09-10-2018, 09:29 AM
Guys, I would just like to say, after getting my pairings under the new "industry leading" rules, I take it all back.

I was so wrong and y'all were so right. The amount of flexibility in under the new rules is AMAZING. I can DROP TO ZERO!!!

Oh wait, all I got was 3-5 day trips. I have zero flexibility. That can't be correct, this CBA is awesome. B6ALPA and all you yes voters told me so. :confused:

Where before I could be home almost every night, now I am gone HALF THE MONTH. :mad:


Home run guys. Nice work. Can't wait till the rest of the industry leading provisions kick in.

Iím 18 days off and 83.5hrs.......

BeatNavy
09-10-2018, 09:36 AM
The only lines with 18 days off that I see in NY on the 320 arenít commutable on one/both ends...even for guys with decent seniority. So for commuters, these 18 day off lines can give people less time at home than previous pairings.

Thereís obviously an issue with these pairings, otherwise the union wouldnít be making a deal about it.

LGB/FLL/MCO (mostly local, non commuter bases) guys lost a ton of day/2 day trips. The commuter heavy bases lost a lot of commutability. And our non-commutable 5 day trips are absurd.

say again
09-10-2018, 09:57 AM
I'm very happy with my Oct schedule.

GuppyPuppy
09-10-2018, 10:23 AM
84.2 hrs. 18 off.

Gup

hilltopflyer
09-10-2018, 10:47 AM
84.2 hrs. 18 off.

Gup

Commutable at all? What equip/base

aldonite7667
09-10-2018, 11:20 AM
83 hrs 18 days off. Iím ok with it. All commutable except the back end of 1 trip. 2 overnights at home.

cmesoar
09-10-2018, 11:27 AM
My schedule is good, and I got all the days off I needed. I was denied one trip that I wanted and it was given to someone junior. It was denied due to FAR117. CBA or no CBA, that would have happened. I may have just messed up the order in which I bid the pairing.

Yes, the pairings are different, but this could have happened pre CBA...

CaptCoolHand
09-10-2018, 11:51 AM
3 off the bottom. Got all days off I asked for and got RSV. EXPONENTIALLY! Better than Septemberís line with 14on and 72hrs.

I know itís weird but not sarcasm.

Iíll get back to it shortly.

cmesoar
09-10-2018, 12:14 PM
3 off the bottom. Got all days off I asked for and got RSV. EXPONENTIALLY! Better than Septemberís line with 14on and 72hrs.

I know itís weird but not sarcasm.

Iíll get back to it shortly.

Good to hear!

PasserOGas
09-10-2018, 12:23 PM
84.2 hrs. 18 off.

Gup

Cool story. How many nights in your own bed? Pre CBA I slept in my bed an average 28 nights/month. Now it's 17, an extra 1.5 weeks a month away.

I get it. You commute and now the world is your oyster. But did you really have a hard time avoiding day turns before? Or are you just rubbing it in all the in-base peoples faces?

Hey, but at least we make below industry average next year...

NightOwl
09-10-2018, 12:35 PM
Cool story. How many nights in your own bed? Pre CBA I slept in my bed an average 28 nights/month. Now it's 17, an extra 1.5 weeks a month away.

I get it. You commute and now the world is your oyster. But did you really have a hard time avoiding day turns before? Or are you just rubbing it in all the in-base peoples faces?

Hey, but at least we make below industry average next year...

I hear allegiant is hiring and all they do is day turns . ;)

J/K

I live in base , 50ish% on the jungle jet right seat. And I haven't been able to hold day turns without sacrificing my weekends. But at least for October, I now have way more productive two and three days with 16 days off and 82 hrs. Not bad in my opinion

say again
09-10-2018, 02:03 PM
Cool story. How many nights in your own bed? Pre CBA I slept in my bed an average 28 nights/month. Now it's 17, an extra 1.5 weeks a month away.

I get it. You commute and now the world is your oyster. But did you really have a hard time avoiding day turns before? Or are you just rubbing it in all the in-base peoples faces?

Hey, but at least we make below industry average next year...

I live in base (JFK 320FO) and have more days off and better trips than previously had (plus I'm home more). Not rubbing it in anybody's face, but I certainly can't complain. Where are you based? That's quite a change.

hyperboy
09-10-2018, 05:30 PM
Cool story. How many nights in your own bed? Pre CBA I slept in my bed an average 28 nights/month. Now it's 17, an extra 1.5 weeks a month away.

I get it. You commute and now the world is your oyster. But did you really have a hard time avoiding day turns before? Or are you just rubbing it in all the in-base peoples faces?

Hey, but at least we make below industry average next year...

That has to be either an exaggeration, you don't know how to bid, or its not the whole story. My bid has 3 overnights in Shangri-La.

PasserOGas
09-10-2018, 06:11 PM
That has to be either an exaggeration, you don't know how to bid, or its not the whole story. My bid has 3 overnights in Shangri-La.

I was barely holding 1 and 2 day trips. Now I don't. I had been barely holding them for a while without moving (thanks to our stellar growth). I was able to massage the 2 days away. Try that with a 5 day. Not an exaggeration.

seekingblue
09-11-2018, 05:37 AM
I was barely holding 1 and 2 day trips. Now I don't. I had been barely holding them for a while without moving (thanks to our stellar growth). I was able to massage the 2 days away. Try that with a 5 day. Not an exaggeration.

I think you are more junior than I gave you credit for.

PasserOGas
09-11-2018, 07:25 AM
I think you are more junior than I gave you credit for.

Junior is a relative term. After 3 years you stop moving up thanks to our demographics and stagnant growth.

hyperboy
09-11-2018, 08:37 AM
I was barely holding 1 and 2 day trips. Now I don't. I had been barely holding them for a while without moving (thanks to our stellar growth). I was able to massage the 2 days away. Try that with a 5 day. Not an exaggeration.

Maybe others that are senior to you bid differently with the new contract Section 25 rules and it is better for them this way.

Seniority?

Bluedriver
09-11-2018, 09:40 AM
Maybe others that are senior to you bid differently with the new contract Section 25 rules and it is better for them this way.

Seniority?

Ha, Hyper asking for your seniority!?!

PasserOGas
09-11-2018, 09:53 AM
Maybe others that are senior to you bid differently with the new contract Section 25 rules and it is better for them this way.

Seniority?

More or less the same has it has been the last year or two thanks to our almost non-existent growth.

Bluedriver
09-11-2018, 10:35 AM
More or less the same has it has been the last year or two thanks to our almost non-existent growth.

Thank GOD you didn't say "stagnant".

My overall system seniority percentage has barely budged over the last year.

CaptCoolHand
09-11-2018, 11:24 AM
It took me 7yrs to move 35 numbers.

This is the pitty party right??

Bluedriver
09-11-2018, 11:31 AM
It took me 7yrs to move 35 numbers.

This is the pitty party right??

35% in 7 years? As to your sarcasm, if this is rapid movement you're easily impressed. Our seniority is moving at the speed of a sleeping slug.

BunkerF16
09-11-2018, 11:51 AM
35% in 7 years? As to your sarcasm, if this is rapid movement you're easily impressed. Our seniority is moving at the speed of a sleeping slug.


I think he meant 35 NUMBERS, not %.


I've been here almost 15 years. I've moved a total of 125 numbers.

hyperboy
09-11-2018, 11:54 AM
Ha, Hyper asking for your seniority!?!


funny you made me laugh....I meant that many complain about juniority until they are senior or when they upgrade.

Bluedriver
09-11-2018, 11:57 AM
I think he meant 35 NUMBERS, not %.


I've been here almost 15 years. I've moved a total of 125 numbers.

So, maybe he's the last guy that should be making fun of others who think our seniority is moving at the pace of a slug shot with and elephant tranquilizer dart?

Our seniority list is moving very slowly, but maybe he's just the type of guy who likes to "fake a smile" and think positive thoughts? Hey, at least we aren't furloughed right?

Bluedriver
09-11-2018, 11:59 AM
funny you made me laugh....I meant that many complain about juniority until they are senior or when they upgrade.

Roger that.

pilotpayne
09-11-2018, 04:09 PM
So, maybe he's the last guy that should be making fun of others who think our seniority is moving at the pace of a slug shot with and elephant tranquilizer dart?

Our seniority list is moving very slowly, but maybe he's just the type of guy who likes to "fake a smile" and think positive thoughts? Hey, at least we aren't furloughed right?

But in real life you are actually a happy guy and get along with most guys you fly with :)

I think he was just talking perspective. If itís true that POG is ďjrĒ he canít really be upset that he canít hold things his seniority canít hold or expect it.

Pretty sure Capt Luke got hired a few years before us when we actually did stop hiring. So yeah some guys were actually stuck. You could have held captain a few years ago so a 4 year upgrade when we were hired is hardly much to complain about. It is not the same for POG but you and I will be 50% in the not to distant future system wide. While we have not moved up they have grown behind us as you know. Now we can chat growth rates all day long but Iím pretty sure Captain Luke wasnít trying to be a jerk.

Bluedriver
09-11-2018, 04:20 PM
But in real life you are actually a happy guy and get along with most guys :)

Actually, true...

Pointing out the FACT that our seniority list is slow moving has nothing to do with me being happy in general. I could also point out that liquid water makes you wet when you fall into it. Yep, I'm still happy. Snow is cold and white. Yep, I'm still happy.

pilotpayne
09-12-2018, 05:50 AM
Actually, true...

Pointing out the FACT that our seniority list is slow moving has nothing to do with me being happy in general. I could also point out that liquid water makes you wet when you fall into it. Yep, I'm still happy. Snow is cold and white. Yep, I'm still happy.

No you did that AND attacked Luke.
I see which one you focused on. Again Blue political office is calling your name. Forget this airline stuff.

Also some snow is yellow (after an additional element)and I thought you didnít get wet because you walk on water, but Iím happy that you are happy great now we can all be happy. How very jetblue of us.

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 07:02 AM
So, maybe he's the last guy that should be making fun of others who think our seniority is moving at the pace of a slug shot with and elephant tranquilizer dart?

Our seniority list is moving very slowly, but maybe he's just the type of guy who likes to "fake a smile" and think positive thoughts? Hey, at least we aren't furloughed right?

What fake smile man? I don't wear rose colored glasses either.
I knew what JB was when I got here, watched it change and I know what it is now. I'm all for bÓtching about stuff, but the constant blame game gets old. I thought this was the place to complain? did that change? what now POG is allowed to whine and I'm not?

We all knew things were going to change with the CBA. For the junior and the senior.

Bluedriver
09-12-2018, 07:03 AM
No you did that AND attacked Luke.
I see which one you focused on. Again Blue political office is calling your name. Forget this airline stuff.

Also some snow is yellow (after an additional element)and I thought you didnít get wet because you walk on water, but Iím happy that you are happy great now we can all be happy. How very jetblue of us.

I like Capt-cool, just not sure why he can't let us have the valid opinion that our seniority list is moving slowly (relative to our peers, at THIS point in history, which is all that matters). When grading on a curve, I'm not sure which of our peers has a worse combination of retirements/growth rate?

So, when grading on a curve, we are very slow-moving seniority wise. But when I say it out loud, Cool has to interject sarcasm or argue what the definition of "is" is.

We've all experienced periods of stagnation and set-back in our careers. Just because it's been "worse" before doesn't invalidate that we're at the bottom now as far as movement, so let us say it!

I've been furloughed, forced captain down-grade due to shrinking domicile, been SCREWED in a seniority list merger, been the BOTTOM captain in base for over year, and just generally been stagnated at different points in the past seniority wise. None of that matters when we are simply saying our seniority is moving slowly, right now, relative to the rest of our peers.

So just let us say it, if we want to, without the sarcasm and reminders of how it "could" be worse.

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 07:07 AM
but Iím pretty sure Captain Luke wasnít trying to be a jerk.


maybe a little :D

We're all a product of our seniority and perspective. If you came here with the idea that we were gonna buy 100 planes next year and tripple in size in 3 you'd be a captain in 6months and have a delta 777 schedule... what were you thinking??

I know that's dramatic, but seriously the way some of us carry on here is like there was zero perspective at all coming into this gig. This wasn't a one war fight. it's not a sprint. UAL DAL and AA all have contract issues and they're on contracts 5?10?15? I have no idea. Take you're issues to the union. Get involved and facilitate change. That's all we've been able to do since the JBPA push in 07. win some lose some.

Bluedriver
09-12-2018, 07:11 AM
What fake smile man? I don't wear rose colored glasses either.
I knew what JB was when I got here, watched it change and I know what it is now. I'm all for bÓtching about stuff, but the constant blame game gets old. I thought this was the place to complain? did that change? what now POG is allowed to whine and I'm not?

We all knew things were going to change with the CBA. For the junior and the senior.

Maybe our signals are getting crossed or I misunderstood your post. If so, I apologize.

I also knew what JB was when I got hired (in some ways, had to learn the hard way in other ways). But! JB didn't stay the same either! It has continually slowed it's growth rate and deferred aircraft orders from what they sold me at the interview. Ok, boo hoo poor me, shouldn't have believed their words or their ORDER BOOK! But I am going to ***** about it, because, well, I'm a pilot!

They also unilaterally took away the premium pay above 78 hours and the annual pay review (the combination of the two especially) that were policy when I got hired. Those are big deals, so to me the "you knew this place when you got hired" doesn't really work for me.

But, nothing stays the same...

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 07:28 AM
I like Capt-cool, just not sure why he can't let us have the valid opinion that our seniority list is moving slowly (relative to our peers, at THIS point in history, which is all that matters). When grading on a curve, I'm not sure which of our peers has a worse combination of retirements/growth rate?

So, when grading on a curve, we are very slow-moving seniority wise. But when I say it out loud, Cool has to interject sarcasm or argue what the definition of "is" is.

We've all experienced periods of stagnation and set-back in our careers. Just because it's been "worse" before doesn't invalidate that we're at the bottom now as far as movement, so let us say it!

I've been furloughed, forced captain down-grade due to shrinking domicile, been SCREWED in a seniority list merger, been the BOTTOM captain in base for over year, and just generally been stagnated at different points in the past seniority wise. None of that matters when we are simply saying our seniority is moving slowly, right now, relative to the rest of our peers.

So just let us say it, if we want to, without the sarcasm and reminders of how it "could" be worse.

I'm not trying to throw it in anyone's face. We're not retiring hundreds of guys because of who we are. We're a different company in a different stage of life than the legacy carriers. I'm the last one to say if you don't like it leave, but seriously? We aren't growing explosively because we almost grew into bankruptcy 10-11years ago and taking 30 planes a year on an immature route structure nearly killed us.

don't take my sarcasm as a shot. it's more of a friendly rib. This place is like a frat house bar for me man. Come share bÓtch moan, poke fun, have simatic arguments with no true right or wrong answers... but we're all here sucking up the suck together.

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 07:30 AM
Maybe our signals are getting crossed or I misunderstood your post. If so, I apologize.

I also knew what JB was when I got hired (in some ways, had to learn the hard way in other ways). But! JB didn't stay the same either! It has continually slowed it's growth rate and deferred aircraft orders from what they sold me at the interview. Ok, boo hoo poor me, shouldn't have believed their words or their ORDER BOOK! But I am going to ***** about it, because, well, I'm a pilot!

They also unilaterally took away the premium pay above 78 hours and the annual pay review (the combination of the two especially) that were policy when I got hired. Those are big deals, so to me the "you knew this place when you got hired" doesn't really work for me.

But, nothing stays the same...
oh I agree with all this. but at the same time we had no say in anything at that time. We were on a boat that we had no control over, hence the push for the union. we're on the same page man.

hilltopflyer
09-12-2018, 07:50 AM
Are they ever going to cancel flights for upcoming hurricane? Or is it typical irops fly into the storm and wonder why everyone diverts. Then send out RSAís for chs, clt, and rdu.

Bluedriver
09-12-2018, 08:04 AM
I'm not trying to throw it in anyone's face. We're not retiring hundreds of guys because of who we are. We're a different company in a different stage of life than the legacy carriers. I'm the last one to say if you don't like it leave, but seriously? We aren't growing explosively because we almost grew into bankruptcy 10-11years ago and taking 30 planes a year on an immature route structure nearly killed us.

don't take my sarcasm as a shot. it's more of a friendly rib. This place is like a frat house bar for me man. Come share bÓtch moan, poke fun, have simatic arguments with no true right or wrong answers... but we're all here sucking up the suck together.

I hear ya. I just reject the "we almost grew ourselves into BK" because we've swung too far the other direction...

We went from taking 30 planes a year with a fleet of 30-40 aircraft to taking 10 planes a year with a fleet of 250 aircraft! Where's the middle-ground Batman!?!

Back to our regularly scheduled JetBlue's the bomb programming!

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 08:39 AM
I hear ya. I just reject the "we almost grew ourselves into BK" because we've swung too far the other direction...

We went from taking 30 planes a year with a fleet of 30-40 aircraft to taking 10 planes a year with a fleet of 250 aircraft! Where's the middle-ground Batman!?!

Back to our regularly scheduled JetBlue's the bomb programming!

I think we could handle the growth at this point. I just don't look forward to a 0000 departure from PAP... :eek:

Bluedriver
09-12-2018, 08:46 AM
I think we could handle the growth at this point. I just don't look forward to a 0000 departure from PAP... :eek:

If we took more aircraft at this point, we'd just connect more existing blue-cities INTA-Dominican Republic. Our typical work day would be SDQ-STI-SDQ-PUJ-STI-POP-SDQ layover, repeat.

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 09:30 AM
If we took more aircraft at this point, we'd just connect more existing blue-cities INTA-Dominican Republic. Our typical work day would be SDQ-STI-SDQ-PUJ-STI-POP-SDQ layover, repeat.

I'd rather make love to a porcupine and shower in lemonade.

seekingblue
09-12-2018, 10:15 AM
Are they ever going to cancel flights for upcoming hurricane? Or is it typical irops fly into the storm and wonder why everyone diverts. Then send out RSAís for chs, clt, and rdu.

CX package is out. Blanket cancel tomorrow for CHS, RDU, etc

hilltopflyer
09-12-2018, 11:33 AM
CX package is out. Blanket cancel tomorrow for CHS, RDU, etc

Seems like they need to do it for Friday as well. Resume on Saturday.

CaptCoolHand
09-12-2018, 03:55 PM
CX package is out. Blanket cancel tomorrow for CHS, RDU, etc

Lmao! This is what Iím talkin about. Operational excellence!

pilotpayne
09-13-2018, 05:50 AM
maybe a little :D

We're all a product of our seniority and perspective. If you came here with the idea that we were gonna buy 100 planes next year and tripple in size in 3 you'd be a captain in 6months and have a delta 777 schedule... what were you thinking??

I know that's dramatic, but seriously the way some of us carry on here is like there was zero perspective at all coming into this gig. This wasn't a one war fight. it's not a sprint. UAL DAL and AA all have contract issues and they're on contracts 5?10?15? I have no idea. Take you're issues to the union. Get involved and facilitate change. That's all we've been able to do since the JBPA push in 07. win some lose some.

.......jerk :)

BunkerF16
09-13-2018, 06:12 AM
maybe a little :D

We're all a product of our seniority and perspective. If you came here with the idea that we were gonna buy 100 planes next year and tripple in size in 3 you'd be a captain in 6months and have a delta 777 schedule... what were you thinking??

I know that's dramatic, but seriously the way some of us carry on here is like there was zero perspective at all coming into this gig. This wasn't a one war fight. it's not a sprint. UAL DAL and AA all have contract issues and they're on contracts 5?10?15? I have no idea. Take you're issues to the union. Get involved and facilitate change. That's all we've been able to do since the JBPA push in 07. win some lose some.


I'm still waiting to win some (one).



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