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rickair7777
08-30-2018, 04:35 PM
I suspected this would happen eventually. Looks like it's now rather than later....

2 Bay Area pilots indicted on charges of lying on medical forms - Story | KTVU (http://www.ktvu.com/news/2-bay-area-pilots-indicted-on-charges-of-lying-on-medical-forms)

If you have a "discrepancy" between your VA and FAA medical files, better get a lawyer now. If YOU clear it up before THEY catch you, it's probably just a paperwork drill.


WhisperJet
08-30-2018, 06:03 PM
This sounds similar to the dragnet a few years ago that was also in CA. Think these guys would have learned from the others' mistakes. FAA can and will crosscheck medical applications with VA records, Social Security, and the NDR. Best to have all ducks in a row and be honest!

ZippyTWS
08-30-2018, 07:24 PM
Having read the article, each of them was receiving disability payments from the VA for conditions they told the FAA they didn't have
(3xMental Disability, 1xChronic Tension Headaches) so I'm not sure getting your heart rate going that the FAA is cross checking all your VA records is warranted.

If your collecting disability for a disqualifying condition that you lied about then you should probably consider rectifying that in some way before they find out.

Chill out with the sensationalism.


Excargodog
08-30-2018, 09:09 PM
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims, but the easiest thing to prosecute is falsifying the FAA form.

Disability fraud is rife in Workers Comp, Social Security Disability, and yes - regretfully even in the VA.

Money going to these programs is finite. Money going to people who don't actually warrant it is subtracted from that available to cover those who really do warrant it. When they went to MEDEXPRESS they made it simple to retrieve all this data. You had to assume they would eventually use it as a tool to detect fraud.

USMCFLYR
08-31-2018, 03:01 AM
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims, but the easiest thing to prosecute is falsifying the FAA form.

Disability fraud is rife in Workers Comp, Social Security Disability, and yes - regretfully even in the VA.

Money going to these programs is finite. Money going to people who don't actually warrant it is subtracted from that available to cover those who really do warrant it. When they went to MEDEXPRESS they made it simple to retrieve all this data. You had to assume they would eventually use it as a tool to detect fraud.
Not sure it is fraud if the VA gave these people a disability rating based off the VA exams.

The illegal thing is thing not reporting the medical condition to the FAA on a federal form.

sherpster
08-31-2018, 04:05 AM
I have talked with retiring military folks who are stressing over VA disability and getting a FAA physical. The FAA will give you a Class 1 medical even if you have all kinds of crap wrong with you. Just report it and deal with it. If you havent reported it yet then contact your regional FAA flight medical office and tell them the TRUTH today and they will get you squared away. They are the medical side of the FAA, not the enforcement side. If it is true these 3 guys were major airline pilots then can you imagine what a dumb move this was for these guys to not report their conditions?????? I have no idea if they will go to prison or not but it would not surprise me if they do. They say the VA hands out disability like candy (true) but the FAA hands out Class 1's like candy also. They dont care about your knee, wrist, elbow, or whatever else you have wrong with you. If you are claiming some mental issue with the VA then maybe you shouldnt be flying until you get that squared away. JUST BE HONEST PEOPLE!

galaxy flyer
08-31-2018, 05:56 AM
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims, but the easiest thing to prosecute is falsifying the FAA form.

Disability fraud is rife in Workers Comp, Social Security Disability, and yes - regretfully even in the VA.

Money going to these programs is finite. Money going to people who don't actually warrant it is subtracted from that available to cover those who really do warrant it. When they went to MEDEXPRESS they made it simple to retrieve all this data. You had to assume they would eventually use it as a tool to detect fraud.

Why do you think the FAA cares about VA fraud? It’s the problem with pilots hiding material health problems such as depression or PTSD. The fraud issue is the FAA’s.

GF

Excargodog
08-31-2018, 06:43 AM
Why do you think the FAA cares about VA fraud? It’s the problem with pilots hiding material health problems such as depression or PTSD. The fraud issue is the FAA’s.

GF


Because it's the same federal government and money is fungible. It isn't the FAA that charges these people. The FAA actions are like an article 15 in the military. They propose an action, but if you don't comply they have to go to an actual court to get punishment levied.

These cases are done by federal attorneys. They go for the easy win. If you swear under oath that you are NOT getting disability and they have the receipts that you were, that's pretty open and shut. Proving to a jury that a vet was exaggerating or entirely faking a claim is a lot harder. Proving a lie is a lot easier than disproving a diagnosis.

Excargodog
08-31-2018, 06:50 AM
Not sure it is fraud if the VA gave these people a disability rating based off the VA exams.

I assure you it is:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2017/12/07/judge-sends-veteran-prison-massive-and-blatant-fraud-va-disability-program/930597001/

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/22/one-veteran-scammed-over-700000-and-a-purple-heart-in-a-rising-wave-of-benefits-fraud.html

http://www.khq.com/story/10144047/idaho-man-pleads-guilty-in-largest-ever-va-disability-benefits-fraud-case


Disability claims are based not merely on exams but on the history provided by the patient. Some disabilities, such as PTSD, are based entirely on history.


The illegal thing is thing not reporting the medical condition to the FAA on a federal form.

The proof of fraud is reporting something DIFFERENT on one sworn history than is reported on the other. The guy who reports a disabling back condition to the VA but reports no back problem to the FAA has committed fraud.

WhisperJet
08-31-2018, 06:54 AM
Seems simple. If you are getting disability (or have any other issue), check yes and deal with the process. Then sleep easy knowing you're square.

Excargodog
08-31-2018, 07:11 AM
Not sure it is fraud if the VA gave these people a disability rating based off the VA exams.

The illegal thing is thing not reporting the medical condition to the FAA on a federal form.


From a a Spokane WA newspaper article:


Sebero lives in LaClede, Idaho, about 15 miles north of Sandpoint, but also owns a home on Austin Lane in Spokane, according to court documents.

Sebero could not be reached for comment, and his lawyer, James Parkins, did not return a phone call. Sentencing is set for July 10.

“By his actions, Mr. Sebero disgraced the system that compensates all those veterans who are truly disabled and who are fairly compensated for their injuries in service to their country,” U.S. Attorney James A. McDevitt said in a news release.

Sebero was stationed at Fairchild Air Force Base before telling officials he’d lost the use of his legs while unloading a snowmobile.

He began receiving monthly benefits in 1976 and was netting more than $6,000 a month when the VA halted benefits after his September 2007 examination – his first since 1978, records show.

In the nearly three decades between those appointments, Sebero became a marine deputy for the Bonner County Sheriff’s Office, operated heavy equipment, flew a helicopter and owned a small-aircraft repairs business at Felts Field in Spokane, all while amassing nearly $1.5 million in VA disability benefits, according to court documents.

“Records indicate that on each application for various airman’s certificates, Sebero denied any sort of medical problems or disability,” according to a news release.

He opened the repairs business in 1992 after operating an excavation business for 12 years, according to the U.S. attorney’s office.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Ellis said in October he expected to subpoena Sebero’s two ex-wives and his current wife for the trial to testify about their sex lives with him to further debunk the paraplegic claim, according to previously published reports.

Sebero was facing federal charges for inspecting planes he wasn’t authorized to inspect when authorities learned he’d been drawing disability benefits.

He pleaded guilty in that case last summer and was ordered to pay $10,754 in restitution as a condition of five years probation.

trip
08-31-2018, 07:20 AM
There’s a lot of military pilots receiving disability for tinnitus and other related ailments. I was told it easy, just go fill out the paperwork and get a check, I asked what about your medical? chirp chirp chirp....

USMCFLYR
08-31-2018, 07:28 AM
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims

You seem to be assuming that the pilots are making fraudulent claims with the VA.
I am assuming they claimed those disabilities and were legitimately given a disability. What they did illegal was not disclose that on the FAA medical form; therefore there is no fraud of the VA. They lied on a federal FAA form.


The guy who reports a disabling back condition to the VA but reports no back problem to the FAA has committed fraud.

Yes...but not fraud against the VA.
They have a back problem, they report the back problem to the VA, they get disability from the VA. All is good to the VA.

They go to the FAA and don't report the problem - well now they have a problem with the FAA, not the VA.

As for your other article - that person committed fraud against the VA and lied on the FAA forms.

155mm
08-31-2018, 07:32 AM
What they did illegal was not disclose that on the FAA medical form; therefore there is no fraud of the VA. They lied on a federal FAA form.




I agree but there are laws in place such as HIPPA and the Privacy Act of 1974 that have to be adhered to in order for the FAA to retrieve that "protected information" and/or the VA to disclose it. The process the FAA used to gather or the VA used to disburse that information may or may not have been within the framework of the law ie: court order.

"Restricts disclosure of PII (personally identifiable information) that is maintained by
the Federal Government, including VA.
(Information can only be disclosed under
certain situations permitted by law. Otherwise,
information cannot be disclosed without your
prior written authorization.) " https://www.oprm.va.gov/docs/Privacy_Service_Brochure_508.pdf

Interesting article on the mismanagement of VA medical records:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/12/30/461400692/patient-privacy-isn-t-safeguarded-at-veterans-medical-facilities

USMCFLYR
08-31-2018, 07:57 AM
I agree but there are laws in place such as HIPPA and the Privacy Act of 1974 that have to be adhered to in order for the FAA to retrieve that "protected information" and/or the VA to disclose it. The process the FAA used to gather or the VA used to disburse that information may or may not have been within the framework of the law ie: court order.

"Restricts disclosure of PII (personally identifiable information) that is maintained by
the Federal Government, including VA.
(Information can only be disclosed under
certain situations permitted by law. Otherwise,
information cannot be disclosed without your
prior written authorization.) " https://www.oprm.va.gov/docs/Privacy_Service_Brochure_508.pdf

Interesting article on the mismanagement of VA medical records:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/12/30/461400692/patient-privacy-isn-t-safeguarded-at-veterans-medical-facilities

That may be true on how the FAA acquired the information, but the fact that the 'fraudulently' filled out the FAA form is still THE illegal act wouldn't you agree.

This forum is filled with stories of how telling the VA one thing and the FAA another is illegal and how pilot should be careful (and honest). This is just the latest example. I don't know what processes are in place for the exchange of information between the gov't agencies, but I knew enough to know that if I applied for, and was awarded disability for X condition from the VA, that I had better darn well tell the FAA of X condition too.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 08:19 AM
Having read the article, each of them was receiving disability payments from the VA for conditions they told the FAA they didn't have
(3xMental Disability, 1xChronic Tension Headaches) so I'm not sure getting your heart rate going that the FAA is cross checking all your VA records is warranted.

If your collecting disability for a disqualifying condition that you lied about then you should probably consider rectifying that in some way before they find out.

Chill out with the sensationalism.

They found these guys somehow. If it was just one person, might have been some weird circumstance where it somehow came to light.

But obvious conclusion here is that they cross-checked databases.

It's possible that this started with the VA, ie THEY were looking for fraud, knew these guys were pilots, and consulted the FAA.

But they defendants are not all in one geographic area... makes me think it was a systematic approach.

The "sensationalism" applies if your current VA disability claim does not match your FAA 8500. That's really low hanging fruit for prosecution, not to mention emergency revocation of all airman certs.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 08:24 AM
I have talked with retiring military folks who are stressing over VA disability and getting a FAA physical. The FAA will give you a Class 1 medical even if you have all kinds of crap wrong with you. Just report it and deal with it. If you havent reported it yet then contact your regional FAA flight medical office and tell them the TRUTH today and they will get you squared away. They are the medical side of the FAA, not the enforcement side. If it is true these 3 guys were major airline pilots then can you imagine what a dumb move this was for these guys to not report their conditions?????? I have no idea if they will go to prison or not but it would not surprise me if they do. They say the VA hands out disability like candy (true) but the FAA hands out Class 1's like candy also. They dont care about your knee, wrist, elbow, or whatever else you have wrong with you. If you are claiming some mental issue with the VA then maybe you shouldnt be flying until you get that squared away. JUST BE HONEST PEOPLE!

This.

The TAP training and VA advocate groups tell you to maximize every possible medical discrepancy for purposes of VA disability.

But if you're going to need an FAA medical, there are SOME conditions which will be show stoppers. If you're separating, you should research the FAA rules before you try to hit your VA disability rating out of the park.

There are many, many things for which you can have a rating and have no trouble with the FAA. But there are few things (LOC, mental health, cardiovascular to name a few) which will be show-stoppers.

I've flown with guys in the airlines with 80% ratings.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 08:29 AM
I assure you it is:

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2017/12/07/judge-sends-veteran-prison-massive-and-blatant-fraud-va-disability-program/930597001/

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/22/one-veteran-scammed-over-700000-and-a-purple-heart-in-a-rising-wave-of-benefits-fraud.html

Idaho man pleads guilty in largest ever VA disability benefits fraud case - Spokane, North Idaho News & Weather KHQ.com (http://www.khq.com/story/10144047/idaho-man-pleads-guilty-in-largest-ever-va-disability-benefits-fraud-case)


Disability claims are based not merely on exams but on the history provided by the patient. Some disabilities, such as PTSD, are based entirely on history.




The proof of fraud is reporting something DIFFERENT on one sworn history than is reported on the other. The guy who reports a disabling back condition to the VA but reports no back problem to the FAA has committed fraud.

Maybe, maybe not.

He may well have a serious back problem, and be entitled to disability. He might have just lied to the FAA. Each specific case could be different, and each would have to be addressed on it's own merits. But I suspect the government is operating on the assumption (reasonable in court) that the VA disabilities were diagnosed by medical professionals and are thus real... hence lying to the FAA is the charge.

It's easy to prosecute someone who checked "no" on the FAA form, but is cashing a monthly check from the VA. Harder to disprove a claimed disability beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 08:33 AM
There’s a lot of military pilots receiving disability for tinnitus and other related ailments. I was told it easy, just go fill out the paperwork and get a check, I asked what about your medical? chirp chirp chirp....

Yup. Military medical and VA are pretty clueless about the needs of professional pilots vis a vis the FAA. But like I said, the little stuff like aches and pains, tinnitus, etc won't be a problem for the FAA.

e6bpilot
08-31-2018, 08:45 AM
Folks, this isn’t hard. If you claim a disqualifying condition on your VA disability, you had better reconcile that on your FAA physical every year. If you haven’t been doing that, probably time to start.
I discussed this at length with both my union FAA expert doctor that we contract with and with my highly experienced AME. They both said the same thing, it isn’t a big deal unless it is a known disqualifying condition. I have VA disability for various issues. We discuss them every year for about 30 seconds and then move on.
Be honest and forthcoming. When you are separating, be mindful of things like sleep apnea and PTSD that the experts in TAP class will encourage you to claim.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 08:47 AM
I agree but there are laws in place such as HIPPA and the Privacy Act of 1974 that have to be adhered to in order for the FAA to retrieve that "protected information" and/or the VA to disclose it. The process the FAA used to gather or the VA used to disburse that information may or may not have been within the framework of the law ie: court order.

"Restricts disclosure of PII (personally identifiable information) that is maintained by
the Federal Government, including VA.
(Information can only be disclosed under
certain situations permitted by law. Otherwise,
information cannot be disclosed without your
prior written authorization.) " https://www.oprm.va.gov/docs/Privacy_Service_Brochure_508.pdf

Interesting article on the mismanagement of VA medical records:
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/12/30/461400692/patient-privacy-isn-t-safeguarded-at-veterans-medical-facilities

PII rules are quite complex with regards to federal agencies sharing info. But many of them do have the infrastructure in place to share info....

https://www.csoonline.com/article/2858297/microsoft-subnet/38-govt-agencies-to-collect-share-and-use-americans-electronic-health-records.html

But there's a pretty obvious loophole to me...

I don't think privacy act would prevent an agency from asking Treasury if you get payments from the VA. If you do, but checked "no" on the 8500, now DoJ has probable cause to subpoena your VA and FAA medical records for a detailed comparison.

The system is simply not going to bend over backwards to protect airline pilots who are lying to the FAA about their medical status. Congress would quickly amend the privacy act if needed (ie high profile issue came to light).

tomgoodman
08-31-2018, 09:07 AM
Could the FAA argue that an applicant for a medical certificate has given implied consent to verification, at least against any previous statements made to the Federal Government?

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 09:38 AM
Could the FAA argue that an applicant for a medical certificate has given implied consent to verification, at least against any previous statements made to the Federal Government?

Probably. There seems to be policy precedent both ways on that.

I think as a default...

Info maintained by the FAA is NOT healthcare related. It is obtained and used to maintain aviation safety, and can probably be used in a reasonable manner for that purpose (ie shared with LE/DOJ, but not posted on the internet for all to google).

Info maintained by the VA seems healthcare-related to me, and as such seems like it should be more protected (HIPA) than the same info held by the FAA.

I think as a starting point, the VA should NOT allow blanket FAA/DOJ fishing expeditions to access all their data. But I suspect that some enterprising federal lawyers might possibly be able to find a loophole, especially while waving the "safety of the flying public" flag.

But I don't know for sure, just know that it's complicated and there is a real risk if you're gaming the system. Point being, don't game the system and if you are, try to get it "corrected" asap.

Of course, any hint of probable cause obtained by other means opens any and all records to subpoena. That may have been what happened in these cases.

galaxy flyer
08-31-2018, 01:27 PM
One alternative view of disability payments is that it’s compensation for injuries suffered while in the service of the government. It’s not a medical issue; it’s compensation that, in civil industry, you might settle thru lawsuits or arbitration. I had a spinal compression fracture and a fusion done as the repair. My flight surgeon was also an FAA FS. The FAA had recently added the disability payment question and he recommended never file for disability until my career as a pilot was over and done. I never did, as I never felt “disabled”, but clearly would be eligible now. A friend was badly beaten up in a T-38 ejection (Keith ate aspirin like candy), 30% disability, but still flew.

GF

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 01:59 PM
One alternative view of disability payments is that it’s compensation for injuries suffered while in the service of the government. It’s not a medical issue; it’s compensation that, in civil industry, you might settle thru lawsuits or arbitration. I had a spinal compression fracture and a fusion done as the repair. My flight surgeon was also an FAA FS. The FAA had recently added the disability payment question and he recommended never file for disability until my career as a pilot was over and done. I never did, as I never felt “disabled”, but clearly would be eligible now. A friend was badly beaten up in a T-38 ejection (Keith ate aspirin like candy), 30% disability, but still flew.

GF

This is really how it works^^^

But the FAA recently decided that they want to have the opportunity to review any VA (or other) disability to make their own determination as to whether they have an aeromedical impact.

Their implementation has been perfectly reasonable to date from my perspective, when that box appeared and I checked it it was easy to show my AME that all of my VA items were "previously, reported, no change" on my 8500.

That probably put a bunch of folks in a pickle though... if they had VA disability ratings for things that they had never reported to the FAA, and had been doing it for years. Like I said before, this is all trending in only one direction and I seriously doubt this pendulum will ever swing back. Better to confront it pro-actively, rather than wait until caught.

Andy
08-31-2018, 04:13 PM
This looks like the FAA was given access to the VA database of disability payments and then cross referenced everyone on VA disability to the FAA database. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the tip of the iceberg on prosecutions.
Note that all four cases involve mental/headache issues. That's likely round one of these prosecutions.

If you're collecting VA disability and have an active FAA medical, I'd recommend that you call your union's medical staff and talk to them immediately. It doesn't matter if you report everything on your FAA medical, I'd still recommend doing a sanity check on this issue with your union medical staff.

BMEP100
08-31-2018, 06:31 PM
I'm continually surprised when I see pilots in the parking lot climbing into their pickup with a Disabled Veteran license plate (in the disabled parking slots right up front.)

I'm thinking the threshold must be pretty low for that plate.

rickair7777
08-31-2018, 06:41 PM
This looks like the FAA was given access to the VA database of disability payments and then cross referenced everyone on VA disability to the FAA database.

Did you see that in the media somewhere? That was my guess too, VA medical data might be off limits (HIPA), but I suspect that treasury data is not so protected.


I wouldn't be surprised if this is the tip of the iceberg on prosecutions.

Might be. Hopefully there are very few people who oblivious enough to think they could get away with it. Although the addition of the question about disability payments to the 8500 might have caught a few folks between a rock and a hard place.


Note that all four cases involve mental/headache issues. That's likely round one of these prosecutions.

Might well be. The FAA went hard over on mental health after germanwings. The VA handing out PTSD ratings like candy doesn't help.


If you're collecting VA disability and have an active FAA medical, I'd recommend that you call your union's medical staff and talk to them immediately. It doesn't matter if you report everything on your FAA medical, I'd still recommend doing a sanity check on this issue with your union medical staff.

Call somebody. But my VA records match my FAA file, so I'm not concerned.

Excargodog
08-31-2018, 06:59 PM
FAA Home ▸ Offices ▸ Aviation Safety ▸ Offices ▸ Aerospace Medicine ▸ Aviation Medical Examiner (AME) Information ▸ Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners ▸ Application Process ▸ Applicant History
Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners

Application Process for Medical Certification
Applicant History - Item 18. Medical History
y. Medical Disability Benefits
The applicant must report any disability benefits received, regardless of source or amount. If the applicant checks yes on this item, the FAA may verify with other Federal Agencies (ie. Social Security Administration, Veteran's Affairs) whether the applicant is receiving a disability benefit that may present a conflict in issuing an FAA medical certificate. The Examiner must document the specifics and nature of the disability in findings in Item 60.
Page last modified: August 20, 2013 3:15:11 PM EDT



Bold type added. Apparently this has been going on to a greater or lesser degree for five years.

This seems to be the testimony to Congress that lead to the requirement to reveal all disability payments being added to the FAA medical history:

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/SAFE_PILOT_Testimony_july17.pdf

JohnBurke
08-31-2018, 07:31 PM
I have talked with retiring military folks who are stressing over VA disability and getting a FAA physical. The FAA will give you a Class 1 medical even if you have all kinds of crap wrong with you. Just report it and deal with it. If you havent reported it yet then contact your regional FAA flight medical office and tell them the TRUTH today and they will get you squared away. They are the medical side of the FAA, not the enforcement side. If it is true these 3 guys were major airline pilots then can you imagine what a dumb move this was for these guys to not report their conditions?????? I have no idea if they will go to prison or not but it would not surprise me if they do. They say the VA hands out disability like candy (true) but the FAA hands out Class 1's like candy also. They dont care about your knee, wrist, elbow, or whatever else you have wrong with you. If you are claiming some mental issue with the VA then maybe you shouldnt be flying until you get that squared away. JUST BE HONEST PEOPLE!

While I agree with your assertion to be honest on the medical application (because dishonesty is a crime), your post seems to suggest that people who declare disabilities to the VA shouldn't have any worries on an FAA medical application. This is not the case.

A patient who has been diagnosed with psychiatric problems, for example, will face an uphill battle in obtaining an FAA medical certificate, particularly if medication is involved. Likewise, numerous physical disabilities claimed from the VA will impact one's ability to hold medical certification for flying. One should be aware that having been diagnosed, and having declared it, there's no getting around it on the medical application, or the consequences for declaring it on the medical application.

The single most common disability for veterans is hearing loss. Little wonder, for those who have been in situations conducive to hearing loss, which is a great deal of military operations, combat or otherwise. This also impacts the ability to hold a medical certificate. Fortunately in that case, it's testable and fairly straight forward; not so with many other conditions.

Yes, be honest, yes, don't hide anything, and yes, declare it when applying for a medical certificate, but also be prepared for the steps necessary to obtain the medical, including waivers, additional testing, and so forth. The disability may be worth a little money from the VA, but it may also cost a lot going in for the FAA medical, and may cost on a recurring basis. Anyone considering pursuing a flying career should take that into account, if looking ahead down the road.

sherpster
09-01-2018, 03:43 AM
You are correct. Physical issues are generally easy. Mental not so much.

sailingfun
09-01-2018, 04:53 AM
Maybe, maybe not.

He may well have a serious back problem, and be entitled to disability. He might have just lied to the FAA. Each specific case could be different, and each would have to be addressed on it's own merits. But I suspect the government is operating on the assumption (reasonable in court) that the VA disabilities were diagnosed by medical professionals and are thus real... hence lying to the FAA is the charge.

It's easy to prosecute someone who checked "no" on the FAA form, but is cashing a monthly check from the VA. Harder to disprove a claimed disability beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

Do you think a jury will be influenced by a medical form where the plaintiff states he has no such medical issue?

galaxy flyer
09-01-2018, 04:55 AM
Bold type added. Apparently this has been going on to a greater or lesser degree for five years.

This seems to be the testimony to Congress that lead to the requirement to reveal all disability payments being added to the FAA medical history:

https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/SAFE_PILOT_Testimony_july17.pdf

That question has been on the FAA medical application for decades.

GF

742Dash
09-01-2018, 05:45 AM
Seems simple. If you are getting disability (or have any other issue), check yes and deal with the process. Then sleep easy knowing you're square.

This can not be emphasized enough. First it was Social Security Disability, now it is VA. It is just a matter of time until pilot medical applications are checked against the pilot's Electronic Medical Records/Electronic Health Records.

HIPAA is just going to be a speed bump in the rush to Protect the Public.

IMO if you are under 60, and especially if you are under 55, everything needs to line up. It is just a matter of time.

rickair7777
09-01-2018, 07:49 AM
That question has been on the FAA medical application for decades.

GF

No, less than ten years. A quick look at my records shows question 18(y) was not on the form in 2008. That asks about disability *benefits*.

18(x) asks about illness, disability, or surgery. You could easily (beyond a reasonable doubt anyway) claim that you did not have a disability per se, even while collecting VA benefits if the condition was not significantly limiting. Per our previous discussion about the real nature of VA "disability".

rickair7777
09-01-2018, 07:53 AM
IMO if you are under 60, and especially if you are under 55, everything needs to line up. It is just a matter of time.

I'd probably add the statute of limitations to that number. Retired pilots would presumably be a lower priority, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't get to them if they ran out of more recent "customers". Also if you keep a 2C/3C for post-retirement employment or fun, you're still above the radar horizon.

rickair7777
09-01-2018, 08:01 AM
Do you think a jury will be influenced by a medical form where the plaintiff states he has no such medical issue?

If the two records disagree, you're probably lying about something.

But it's a moot point, with the addition of 18(y) whether you have a "disability" or any medical condition is irrelevant, you have to disclose the fact that you're getting benefits. Very hard to weasel out of that fact if YOU applied for VA benefits AND the fed is depositing money in your checking account every month...

Gundriver64
09-01-2018, 08:57 AM
Yes, unfortunately there are douche-bags in the military who game the system for $$. Most of the VA claims are legitimate. Some are not. In my outfit we just ran a guy off who was getting an 80% disability, but STILL managing to pass a Class II military flight physical and was flying as a line pilot.

JohnBurke
09-01-2018, 09:06 AM
Do you think a jury will be influenced by a medical form where the plaintiff states he has no such medical issue?

Yes. The "medical form" is a legal document, and has standing in the court. It's evidence, and a signed form is clear evidence that the signer intentionally made the falsification.

If the signer has previously stated on paper that he or she has a disability (VA) and has accepted money for the disability, it's very hard to create any semblance of reasonable doubt that the signer wasn't fully aware when claiming no disability to the FAA. The paper trail is all there.

Whether or not the signer tries to say he or she has no disability is irrelevant; it's all there on paper, signed, sealed, and now, delivered.

Some don't get it, but sign that form, and you're making a legal statement. Sign your logbook or put information in your logbook, you've signed a legal document, fully admissible. Call the tower after landing, and you're recorded. It's evidence, and send back that 10-day response to the inspector's initial enquiry about a potential violation, and you've just submitted a legal statement that will be used against you. Say something in the cockpit, the CVR picks it up. You've just made a legal statement. Sign the log at the end of the flight; that's a legal document. It's evidence. All of it. As clear, and as sure as a fingerprint, a smoking gun, or blood on the pant leg. It's all legal evidence, and yes, a jury can be convinced with evidence. In fact, in the face of the evidence, a jury is left with little choice, and in the case of a grand jury, the case is presented without opposition.

Take the VA benefits, if merited; that's what it's for. No harm, no crime, no foul. Just don't lie about it later or attempt to have the cake, and eat it too.

That cake is evidence.

decrabbitz
09-01-2018, 10:32 AM
No, less than ten years. A quick look at my records shows question 18(y) was not on the form in 2008. That asks about disability *benefits*.

18(x) asks about illness, disability, or surgery. You could easily (beyond a reasonable doubt anyway) claim that you did not have a disability per se, even while collecting VA benefits if the condition was not significantly limiting. Per our previous discussion about the real nature of VA "disability".



Re: “benefits”, are we talking about money only, or do “benefits” include such things as VA loans, free tuition, etc? If someone has a “0%” rating and receiving no money are they on the radar?

davessn763
09-01-2018, 12:14 PM
There’s a lot of military pilots receiving disability for tinnitus and other related ailments. I was told it easy, just go fill out the paperwork and get a check, I asked what about your medical? chirp chirp chirp....

Tinnitus is not disqualifying for a class 1. If you have a sleep disorder related to tinnitus it can be disqualifying.

Anytime you have a medical issue that might be disqualifying you should call ALPA medical and get their opinion before getting care or reporting on an FAA form.

Av8tr1
09-01-2018, 01:06 PM
Yes, unfortunately there are douche-bags in the military who game the system for $$. Most of the VA claims are legitimate. Some are not. In my outfit we just ran a guy off who was getting an 80% disability, but STILL managing to pass a Class II military flight physical and was flying as a line pilot.

What are you saying here? 80% and you shouldn’t be able to pass a class 2?

I’m 90% and hold a class 1 and yes the FAA knows everything in my VA file. I know of others who are over 100% and hold all classes. One guy holds a MOH and Purple Heart with 2 leafs the equivalent of three Purple Hearts. Holds a class two and flies helicopters for a living.

A VA disability does not necessarily mean you are an invaled. There are many with high disability ratings that lead very productive lives.

snowdawg
09-01-2018, 01:51 PM
From the bottom on the article: Each count carries a maximum possible sentence of five years in prison, if the defendants are convicted.


Hope these guys think it was worth it.

JohnBurke
09-01-2018, 04:18 PM
What are you saying here? 80% and you shouldn’t be able to pass a class 2?

I’m 90% and hold a class 1 and yes the FAA knows everything in my VA file. I know of others who are over 100% and hold all classes. One guy holds a MOH and Purple Heart with 2 leafs the equivalent of three Purple Hearts. Holds a class two and flies helicopters for a living.

A VA disability does not necessarily mean you are an invaled. There are many with high disability ratings that lead very productive lives.

It warms the cockles of my heart to know that you're not disabled enough to fly for a living, that I get to pay for your "disability," and yet it doesn't impact your ability to to...not really be disabled.

Quite a gambit.

As others noted, gotta love the airline pilots with handicap stickers, pulling in their two hundred grand on their first class medical, and disability at the same time. Uncle Sam is quite the cash cow.

USMCFLYR
09-01-2018, 04:33 PM
It warms the cockles of my heart to know that you're not disabled enough to fly for a living, that I get to pay for your "disability," and yet it doesn't impact your ability to to...not really be disabled.

Quite a gambit.

As others noted, gotta love the airline pilots with handicap stickers, pulling in their two hundred grand on their first class medical, and disability at the same time. Uncle Sam is quite the cash cow.
I'm not disabled enough not to fly for a living either.
The VA has rules that say for XXX I get a disability rating.
The FAA says that I can get a waiver for that to fly.

Not a thing wrong with it and your cockles are irrelevant.

galaxy flyer
09-01-2018, 04:57 PM
John Burke,

As I posted, “disability” pay is not necessarily about being physically disabled, it’s about being paid for injuries suffered during government service. Being made whiole. You are expressly forbidden from suing, for most cases, the government enjoys sovereign immunity. Second, what civilian employer could knowingly expose their employees to hazards routinely seen in the service?

Now, the question is the condition justifying payment potentially disqualifying? Is there fraud, of course, they’re also investigated.

Rickair777,. I’ll stand corrected on the date the disability question was added, but I vividly remember hearing of this potential issue in the late 80s. Maybe memory is fading.

GF

Av8tr1
09-01-2018, 05:20 PM
It warms the cockles of my heart to know that you're not disabled enough to fly for a living, that I get to pay for your "disability," and yet it doesn't impact your ability to to...not really be disabled.

Quite a gambit.

As others noted, gotta love the airline pilots with handicap stickers, pulling in their two hundred grand on their first class medical, and disability at the same time. Uncle Sam is quite the cash cow.


If one loses a leg and gets an artificial one, is able to walk, run, fly airplanes, fornacate is one no longer disabled? Should they not be compensated for the loss of said leg in the line of duty for country? Or is it once they have that artificial leg and can walk again they are whole again?

I get that you are a troll. Show some respect for your betters who bled for this country. Not everyone is trying to game the system. Some of us fought and bled for you. VA disability is reimbursement for lost abilities that many have found ways around their "disability".

You don't like it run for congress and end support to American soldiers. I'm sure that will warm the cockles of the people around you.

Av8tr1
09-01-2018, 05:24 PM
As others noted, gotta love the airline pilots with handicap stickers, pulling in their two hundred grand on their first class medical, and disability at the same time. Uncle Sam is quite the cash cow.

Let me make sure I understand your position, if someone has a disability rating and is receiving any compensation from the VA, is it your position that they not be allowed to earn income?

I.e. If you have a disability rating you are not allowed to work?

rickair7777
09-01-2018, 06:08 PM
Re: “benefits”, are we talking about money only, or do “benefits” include such things as VA loans, free tuition, etc? If someone has a “0%” rating and receiving no money are they on the radar?

I *think* they mean traditional VA disability rating payments. Other VA bennies (which every vet is entitled to) are probably not what they're looking for.

I would think a 0% rating would not trigger the benefits question 18(y), but you probably should have reported the original condition which led to a residual 0% rating to the FAA. The 8500 questions all start with "Have you ever..." If you have a 0%, then yes you have at one time.

rickair7777
09-01-2018, 06:20 PM
It warms the cockles of my heart to know that you're not disabled enough to fly for a living, that I get to pay for your "disability," and yet it doesn't impact your ability to to...not really be disabled.

Quite a gambit.

As others noted, gotta love the airline pilots with handicap stickers, pulling in their two hundred grand on their first class medical, and disability at the same time. Uncle Sam is quite the cash cow.

This guy requaled for SF minus a leg...

https://taskandpurpose.com/boston-green-beret-amputee-set-5th-deployment-despite-injuries/

Think he should get some "disability" comp when he retires?

Now I agree that 90% of folks with handicap plates are probably scamming the system for rock star parking. I could probably get one too, but I'd be embarrassed as an airline pilot.

bozobigtop
09-01-2018, 08:39 PM
Treat the form like any other federal form in which if you lie and get caught it's a fine or jail or both. problem solved!

JohnBurke
09-01-2018, 08:44 PM
John Burke,
As I posted, “disability” pay is not necessarily about being physically disabled, it’s about being paid for injuries suffered during government service. Being made whiole. You are expressly forbidden from suing, for most cases, the government enjoys sovereign immunity.


When someone has a payout for a 90% disability, and they're not really 90% disabled...and yet go on to claim full health and draw a thick, juicy salary only possible as a healthy, whole aviator, and the taxpayer picks up the tab, there is a problem. A big, big problem.

John Burke,
Second, what civilian employer could knowingly expose their employees to hazards routinely seen in the service?


I've worked for quite a few.

Of course, there's a great deal of what the military does, which is handled by contractors who will never see disability or for that matter, a flag on their coffins...

This guy requaled for SF minus a leg...

https://taskandpurpose.com/boston-green-beret-amputee-set-5th-deployment-despite-injuries/

Think he should get some "disability" comp when he retires?


Oh hell yes, he should. And he probably will.

And if he decides to pursue an airline career, no doubt he'll be honest about it, too.

Most here aren't old enough to remember Dana Bowman, who lost his legs in a parachute mishap with the Golden Knights, and who kept jumping and remained in the service, and many have never heard of a personal hero, Douglas Bader.

Then again, with many of these, ask them if they're handicapped, and they'll tell you "no."

I have no issues with someone who is 90% disabled being paid for being 90% disabled, especially as they've lost it in service to their uniform, country, and flag. What I have a massive issue with is the schmuck who takes pay for 90% disability when he's not really disabled, and demonstrates it by doing a job that a 90% truly disabled person couldn't do.

I sat next to a young man, a staff sergeant, on a flight one night over Basrah, and as I was preparing to do a rapid descent, asked if he had any sinus or ear issues. He told me he had just one ear drum. I enquired as to why; it was an RPG in Baghdad, he said. I told him we'd save the rapid descent for another time. No problem sir, he said, "If the United States Army wants me to have another ear drum, they'll give me one."

I appreciated the kid's candor. It doesn't really work that way, of course, and while his guns-ho attitude is commendable, he had what's the most common disability in the military; hearing loss. With one ear drum blown out, significant hearing loss that would be with him for life. I have no issues with him receiving a diagnosis and a determination of disability, or the pay. I hope he gets it, and whatever he gets won't make up for the loss he'll live with the rest of his life. The same for someone who is truly 90% disabled.

That's not at all the same as what we're discussing, and for the person who is 90% disabled, but has no problem holding a free and clear medical and operating as if no disability exists, I ask, "which is it?"

Shall we have the cake and eat it too, or there a line in the sand there, somewhere?

Profane Kahuna
09-02-2018, 03:00 AM
That's not at all the same as what we're discussing, and for the person who is 90% disabled, but has no problem holding a free and clear medical and operating as if no disability exists, I ask, "which is it?"

Shall we have the cake and eat it too, or there a line in the sand there, somewhere?

You appear to be confused as to the VA disability rating system. Probably because it is confusing to say the least.

A veteran whose wounds and injuries receive a 100% disability rating is not required to be a paraplegic and sit at home in their wheelchair collecting disability checks. That is a separate category called 100% Individual Unemployability (IU).

So back to your complaint, a person can leave the military and hold a job AND still receive compensation from the VA.

Their percentage is just a cumulative representation of all the wounds and injuries they received. For those with higher numbers it is usually a lot of little things that add up to the high number.

rickair7777
09-02-2018, 07:03 AM
Shall we have the cake and eat it too, or there a line in the sand there, somewhere?

Pretty high up on your horse today. There's always the 1% who game the system, in any demographic.

You're confusing disability compensation with actual disability, they are NOT the same thing in this context.

VA disability ratings are more commonly for pain, suffering, and inconvenience than day-to-day functional disability. Maybe they called it "disability" to make it politically palatable to fund.

I have a small rating. I was seriously injured in the line of duty once (actual mission training, not playing hoops at lunch), spent six months in a cast, another six with limited daily mobility, another year before I could run, jump and swim (had to work pretty hard for that), ultimately re-qualified at my job. I still do daily stretches and regular strength training to address that injury and drop some coin on motrin and supplements. Doesn't cause me any limitations, as long as I make the effort but I do have to make an effort. Oh and if I do more than a couple pressure cycles in a day, it hurts... injured tissue aggravated by scuba diving back in the day. So I prefer one leg days.

Handicap plates OTH, IMO should be reserved for folks who really can't walk more than 20 feet under their own power.

Oh and contractors get PAID to be contractors. I have mixed feelings about the whole contracting thing (for reasons unrelated to their care and feeding), but high-end operators can make major airline CA pay or more doing that gig. And none of them are clueless 19 year old conscripts either.

Andy
09-02-2018, 11:46 AM
What are you saying here? 80% and you shouldn’t be able to pass a class 2?

I’m 90% and hold a class 1 and yes the FAA knows everything in my VA file. I know of others who are over 100% and hold all classes. One guy holds a MOH and Purple Heart with 2 leafs the equivalent of three Purple Hearts. Holds a class two and flies helicopters for a living.

A VA disability does not necessarily mean you are an invaled. There are many with high disability ratings that lead very productive lives.

Well, your buddies may be in deep kimchee if they get caught.

I didn't file for any disabilities when I retired but my wife is 80% disabled. She's considered going to 100% - she has some pretty heavy issues but she wouldn't be able to work full time with 100% disability.

You're saying 100% disabled's OK to work full time. My wife's saying it's not. On to the web and this website: https://www.veteranslaw.com/faq/

Quote:
Can a veteran work while receiving VA disability?
A veteran generally can still work when receiving VA disability. However, typically in order to receive individual unemployability or a 100 percent schedule rating for certain disabilities, a veteran cannot work full time or make over a certain amount of money per year (generally anything above the poverty line). This depends on each individual case and if you have questions about a claim for unemployability, or if you are not able to work due to a disability incurred in service.



So it may be possible to work full time with 100% disability, but it's definitely NOT a blanket statement.

Your friends may want to consider seeking legal advice on this issue, as it's now easy for the FAA to cross reference disability payments. They are also getting access to VA medical records since they were able to file charges against the airmen at the beginning of this thread.

Andy
09-02-2018, 11:54 AM
You appear to be confused as to the VA disability rating system. Probably because it is confusing to say the least.

A veteran whose wounds and injuries receive a 100% disability rating is not required to be a paraplegic and sit at home in their wheelchair collecting disability checks. That is a separate category called 100% Individual Unemployability (IU).

So back to your complaint, a person can leave the military and hold a job AND still receive compensation from the VA.

Their percentage is just a cumulative representation of all the wounds and injuries they received. For those with higher numbers it is usually a lot of little things that add up to the high number.

Nothing personal, but your post glosses over what it takes to get a 100% disability rating. It's not just handed out.

Excargodog
09-02-2018, 04:09 PM
I *think* they mean traditional VA disability rating payments. Other VA bennies (which every vet is entitled to) are probably not what they're looking for.

I would think a 0% rating would not trigger the benefits question 18(y), but you probably should have reported the original condition which led to a residual 0% rating to the FAA. The 8500 questions all start with "Have you ever..." If you have a 0%, then yes you have at one time.

Typically a 0% disability is a placeholder for something expected to deteriorate in the future. An example would be a serious knee joint injury. Right now the guy/gal has good strength and full range of motion, but them eventually getting degenerative arthritis is a virtual certainty and at some time in the future maybe even a knee joint replacement. A 0% establishes the service-connectedness of the condition, particularly important to those who separate before retirement and don't have access to Tricare or Uniformed Services care.

rickair7777
09-02-2018, 04:21 PM
Typically a 0% disability is a placeholder for something expected to deteriorate in the future. An example would be a serious knee joint injury. Right now the guy/gal has good strength and full range of motion, but them eventually getting degenerative arthritis is a virtual certainty and at some time in the future maybe even a knee joint replacement. A 0% establishes the service-connectedness of the condition, particularly important to those who separate before retirement and don't have access to Tricare or Uniformed Services care.

Yes, but again the questions all start with "have you ever...".

So if it was bad enough to get a residual, the original injury probably should have been disclosed.

Billy Baroo
09-03-2018, 06:44 AM
Yes, but again the questions all start with "have you ever...".

So if it was bad enough to get a residual, the original injury probably should have been disclosed.

It appears to me that none of the questions in block 18 of the 8500-8 pertain to a joint injury, as well as many other conditions that could drive a disability rating. An injury that is healed should not drive one to check "Yes" for box "x." which lists the condition as "Other illness, disability, or surgery." Nothing in any of the boxes asks about tinnitus or hearing loss, so there is a wide range of conditions that would garner a disability rating from the VA that are not even questions on the FAA form.

rickair7777
09-03-2018, 07:39 AM
It appears to me that none of the questions in block 18 of the 8500-8 pertain to a joint injury, as well as many other conditions that could drive a disability rating. An injury that is healed should not drive one to check "Yes" for box "x." which lists the condition as "Other illness, disability, or surgery." Nothing in any of the boxes asks about tinnitus or hearing loss, so there is a wide range of conditions that would garner a disability rating from the VA that are not even questions on the FAA form.

I think you could make a good case about joint issues....

All of the questions start with: HAVE YOU EVER IN YOUR LIFE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH, HAD, OR DO YOU PRESENTLY HAVE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING?

So 18(u) and/or (x) would get you if surgery or hospitalization was required, but doesn't look like it would apply otherwise. Reasonable, as long as you don't fly until the swelling in your knee goes down.

But 18(y) will get you for ANY disability benefit, regardless of whether the condition is covered by any other questions. I suspect that means payments for a rating greater than 0%.

Also keep in mind, the standard for prosecution is "beyond reasonable doubt", and DA's and US Attorney's don't like to lose so they are not going to trial with anything that's not pretty open and shut. So grey areas help you there. But for the FAA the standards are much lower, they can pretty much revoke your tickets just for suspicion of falsification and then you can try to get them back by appealing all the way up to a real US federal court (all the FAA/NTSB steps in the process typically rubber-stamp whatever the FAA did originally). The kindler, gentler FAA seems to be very real so far, but it does not apply at all to fraud/falsification.

symbian simian
09-03-2018, 12:19 PM
What are you saying here? 80% and you shouldn’t be able to pass a class 2?

I’m 90% and hold a class 1 and yes the FAA knows everything in my VA file. I know of others who are over 100% and hold all classes. One guy holds a MOH and Purple Heart with 2 leafs the equivalent of three Purple Hearts. Holds a class two and flies helicopters for a living.

A VA disability does not necessarily mean you are an invaled. There are many with high disability ratings that lead very productive lives.

So maybe we need to stop using the word disability, but I do think being 100% disabled should stop you from being able to work. disabled = not + able. If you see the payment as compensation for past pain and suffering we need to give you workman's comp or something, but if you can say straight face that you deserve 100% disability for what happened at work, but still are able to work full-time as a pilot, there is something wrong in my opinion.

symbian simian
09-03-2018, 12:26 PM
If one loses a leg and gets an artificial one, is able to walk, run, fly airplanes, fornacate is one no longer disabled? Should they not be compensated for the loss of said leg in the line of duty for country? Or is it once they have that artificial leg and can walk again they are whole again?

I get that you are a troll. Show some respect for your betters who bled for this country. Not everyone is trying to game the system. Some of us fought and bled for you. VA disability is reimbursement for lost abilities that many have found ways around their "disability".

You don't like it run for congress and end support to American soldiers. I'm sure that will warm the cockles of the people around you.

If one can run with an artificial leg one is certainly ABLE to run, so not DISABLED, it is the meaning of the word. If you are asking if they deserve compensation for having "bled for me" that is a separate question. I think it is ok for the government to compensate veterans for their suffering, I do think it is OK to question how some can get 100% disability payments, and are still able to get a first class. There is a limited amount of VA money to dole out and a major airline pilot would not be my first choice.

Also, "fornicate"

USMCFLYR
09-03-2018, 12:37 PM
If one can run with an artificial leg one is certainly ABLE to run, so not DISABLED, it is the meaning of the word. If you are asking if they deserve compensation for having "bled for me" that is a separate question. I think it is ok for the government to compensate veterans for their suffering, I do think it is OK to question how some can get 100% disability payments, and are still able to get a first class. There is a limited amount of VA money to dole out and a major airline pilot would not be my first choice.

Also, "fornicate"
So someone with 4 different qualifying disabilities - each worth 25% as an example - but none of them in and of themselves something that is not at least waiverable with a Special Issuance ought not be able to hold a 1st Class?

As another poster who answered JB - it seems many people really don't understand the VAs system and how disabilities are awarded.

snowdawg
09-03-2018, 12:49 PM
The indictments don't question the VA's system of disability and how they tally it. It's about mental health, PTSD, and having severe depression and not disclosing any of this to the faa. And the individual(s) in question are still collecting VA benefits whilst holding a current first class medical and never made mention of their mental health history.


Wish them the best of luck, unfortunately they may be spending time in jail.

symbian simian
09-03-2018, 04:20 PM
So someone with 4 different qualifying disabilities - each worth 25% as an example - but none of them in and of themselves something that is not at least waiverable with a Special Issuance ought not be able to hold a 1st Class?

As another poster who answered JB - it seems many people really don't understand the VAs system and how disabilities are awarded.

As you can see from my post, it is obvious I have no idea how the VA works, I do think it is unfortunate there is so many disabled veterans who are in real need, and there seem to be a few for whom the system has worked really well. Not trying to incite violence here, but the word disabled comes from not being able to do something. If it is just about making good for past suffering you need to call it something else.

Andy
09-03-2018, 05:23 PM
So someone with 4 different qualifying disabilities - each worth 25% as an example - but none of them in and of themselves something that is not at least waiverable with a Special Issuance ought not be able to hold a 1st Class?

As another poster who answered JB - it seems many people really don't understand the VAs system and how disabilities are awarded.

Oh lordy. The VA rates disabilities in 10% increments. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc.
But if they did use a 25% disability, four different 25% disabilities would add up to a 69% disability rating. Which would then be rounded to a 70% disability rating.

Yes, you definitely don't understand the VA system and disability ratings are awarded.

Billy Baroo
09-03-2018, 07:53 PM
Oh lordy. The VA rates disabilities in 10% increments. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc.
But if they did use a 25% disability, four different 25% disabilities would add up to a 69% disability rating. Which would then be rounded to a 70% disability rating.
.

This is my situation exactly. I have arthritis in several joints and back problems... which individually are small disability ratings but combined my VA rating is pretty high. While I experience ongoing discomfort due to these conditions, none are limiting as far as my ability to move or perform normal activities. These conditions all occurred on active duty when I was not maintaining an FAA medical.... so they have no record of the diagnosis and treatment of such conditions. Now I have a first class certificate; however, none of my conditions would drive a "yes" answer to the fairly specific questions on the certificate application. I think I have nothing to fear since otherwise I am in good shape, mentally, cardiovascularly, and everything else, my joints are my only issue.

Am I oversimplifying this by thinking I have nothing to worry about?

Smooth at FL450
09-03-2018, 08:04 PM
This is my situation exactly. I have arthritis in several joints and back problems... which individually are small disability ratings but combined my VA rating is pretty high. While I experience ongoing discomfort due to these conditions, none are limiting as far as my ability to move or perform normal activities. These conditions all occurred on active duty when I was not maintaining an FAA medical.... so they have no record of the diagnosis and treatment of such conditions. Now I have a first class certificate; however, none of my conditions would drive a "yes" answer to the fairly specific questions on the certificate application. I think I have nothing to fear since otherwise I am in good shape, mentally, cardiovascularly, and everything else, my joints are my only issue.

Am I oversimplifying this by thinking I have nothing to worry about?


No. just don't lie to the FAA about it or any medical disability benefits you do or may receive in the future. And thank you for your service.

deadseal
09-03-2018, 09:00 PM
When I separated, the VA rep came in and said to everyone verbatim “just go for it. Even if you think you don’t really have an issue, just file for disability and see what happens”. It’s a scam...period(obviously there are very justified cases)
My lower back hurts from pulling Gs. Can I fly an airplane just fine? Yup. I’m not gonna steal government money from taxpayers. Cause in all reality that’s what you are doing. You can tell yourself whatever you want. I’m ready to receive incoming from this but I don’t give 2 craps. This was a sore point for me after that VA meeting. We have a crazy deficit and dudes complain about it, yet they are pulling 40% disability while working full time as an airbus captain..... screw you pal.

snowdawg
09-03-2018, 09:11 PM
This is my situation exactly. I have arthritis in several joints and back problems... which individually are small disability ratings but combined my VA rating is pretty high. While I experience ongoing discomfort due to these conditions, none are limiting as far as my ability to move or perform normal activities. These conditions all occurred on active duty when I was not maintaining an FAA medical.... so they have no record of the diagnosis and treatment of such conditions. Now I have a first class certificate; however, none of my conditions would drive a "yes" answer to the fairly specific questions on the certificate application. I think I have nothing to fear since otherwise I am in good shape, mentally, cardiovascularly, and everything else, my joints are my only issue.

Am I oversimplifying this by thinking I have nothing to worry about?



If you have access to union medical I would call them ASAP. Go over your file and they can decide.



There is not one question on a faa medical form that ask, How do you feel today???!!! Every question is seeking the past history and current medical condition, regardless if you had a current faa medical or not. This includes medical history before you even thought about becoming a pilot. For example. Have you ever been hospitalized? Yes, for appendicitis in 1978.

USMCFLYR
09-04-2018, 03:14 AM
Oh lordy. The VA rates disabilities in 10% increments. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc.
But if they did use a 25% disability, four different 25% disabilities would add up to a 69% disability rating. Which would then be rounded to a 70% disability rating.

Yes, you definitely don't understand the VA system and disability ratings are awarded.
No I get it...just trying to use easy to understand numbers, but it would have been better if I was more numerically correct.

But I understand it enough to know how and why my disability rating is what it is and how I am still able to hold a 1st Class medical albeit with SIs.

Billy
Have you ever been diagnosed with arthritis? I assume you have, either by an civilian doctor or during your VA screening, then you have 'Any illness....' which you would need to disclose. Now....are you currently taking medication for the arthritis? Many, if not all of the medications for the different types of arthritis required a Special Issuance for flying. So for instance if you were on Enbrel and flying without a Special Issuance, then this would be a problem and would need to be immediately addressed. I feel your pain (literally) in this so good luck!

I like BIG Bus
09-04-2018, 04:50 AM
I have completely missed that question for some reason. I just answer no to everything like I have been for umpteen years unless something new medically pops up. After seeing it on here I had to go back and look at the form. When did the form change? Are you sure they aren’t talking about Social Security disability benefits? There is nothing in the instructions that clarifies this.

e6bpilot
09-04-2018, 05:29 AM
When I separated, the VA rep came in and said to everyone verbatim “just go for it. Even if you think you don’t really have an issue, just file for disability and see what happens”. It’s a scam...period(obviously there are very justified cases)

My lower back hurts from pulling Gs. Can I fly an airplane just fine? Yup. I’m not gonna steal government money from taxpayers. Cause in all reality that’s what you are doing. You can tell yourself whatever you want. I’m ready to receive incoming from this but I don’t give 2 craps. This was a sore point for me after that VA meeting. We have a crazy deficit and dudes complain about it, yet they are pulling 40% disability while working full time as an airbus captain..... screw you pal.



That’s certainly your choice.
You may feel different in a few years when that back becomes a big problem and you have to pay for care and rehab. Getting VA medical and disability benefits for a legitimate condition is absolutely warranted.
The scam you speak of is absolutely correct. It has become a drain on government resources purported by the people who are “helping” vets apply for VA benefits. Sleep apnea and PTSD are the big ones. Lots of shoe clerks claiming PTSD who have never set foot in a combat zone. It is shameful and disrespectful.
You somehow protesting this by not claiming benefits for a legitimate condition that could really affect your quality of life later on is perplexing, though. It’s an interesting way to get your point across and could really cost you later down the road. The Airbus captain collecting 40 percent likely has legitimate issues that also affect his or her quality of life.
Cheers and thanks for providing your perspective.

rickair7777
09-04-2018, 08:26 AM
This is my situation exactly. I have arthritis in several joints and back problems... which individually are small disability ratings but combined my VA rating is pretty high. While I experience ongoing discomfort due to these conditions, none are limiting as far as my ability to move or perform normal activities. These conditions all occurred on active duty when I was not maintaining an FAA medical.... so they have no record of the diagnosis and treatment of such conditions. Now I have a first class certificate; however, none of my conditions would drive a "yes" answer to the fairly specific questions on the certificate application. I think I have nothing to fear since otherwise I am in good shape, mentally, cardiovascularly, and everything else, my joints are my only issue.

Am I oversimplifying this by thinking I have nothing to worry about?


It depends. Read ALL of the questions. If you've never been hospitalized, had surgery, or collected ANY disability benefits I think you're OK with unreported joint issues (I don't think you're required to report them).

But if you have a VA rating which results in you getting money from the US treasury (I'm strating to suspect you do), then you SHOULD be reporting that per 18(y). The question does not have caveats related to the other questions, it is very black and white. YOU don't get to decide whether the disability issue is relevant, the FAA wants the opportunity to do that for themselves.

The good news... even if you are getting disability and have not reported it, I *think* the feds are going after really low-hanging fruit, which is to say folks with OBVIOUSLY disqualifying conditions (ie mental health, diabetes). I don't *think* they want to prosecute anyone for not reporting a condition which would not even be a certification issue if disclosed.

If you've been getting VA payments but did NOT check the 18(y) box, then you probably need to fix that BEFORE they catch you. Call a lawyer. I'm pretty sure prosecution is not an issue for you. But getting your tickets revoked *might* be an issue if they catch you first. So I would be pro-active. As I've said before, if you're not flying with a disqualifying condition, and pro-actively correct your FAA record before they catch you, I suspect it's just a paperwork drill. But I serioulsy wouldn't stick your head in the sand.

The reason there are more than a few people in this boat has to do with military medicine culture. If you can do your job safely, what military medicine doesn't know won't hurt them... kind of don't ask, don't tell in most cases. But you CANNOT take that attitude to civil aviation... what the FAA doesn't know will get YOUR certs revoked and YOUR arse potentially thrown in federal prison.

rickair7777
09-04-2018, 08:33 AM
I have completely missed that question for some reason. I just answer no to everything like I have been for umpteen years unless something new medically pops up. After seeing it on here I had to go back and look at the form. When did the form change? Are you sure they aren’t talking about Social Security disability benefits? There is nothing in the instructions that clarifies this.

I think it changed in 2009-ish. My medical from 2008 does not have 18(y). My 2009 medical does. That was also when they changed 18(v) to include arrests, in addition to convictions, for DUI.

They are not "talking about" anything other than exactly what the question says. Which would mean any and all disability benefits including VA, SS, state disability, workman's comp, Fireman's fund, Indian tribal, etc, etc, etc.

See my previous post. As long as you're not flying with a disqualifying condition you can probably correct your record with a paperwork drill. Do it before they catch you though. Get a lawyer.

rickair7777
09-04-2018, 08:36 AM
That’s certainly your choice.
You may feel different in a few years when that back becomes a big problem and you have to pay for care and rehab. Getting VA medical and disability benefits for a legitimate condition is absolutely warranted.
The scam you speak of is absolutely correct. It has become a drain on government resources purported by the people who are “helping” vets apply for VA benefits. Sleep apnea and PTSD are the big ones. Lots of shoe clerks claiming PTSD who have never set foot in a combat zone. It is shameful and disrespectful.
You somehow protesting this by not claiming benefits for a legitimate condition that could really affect your quality of life later on is perplexing, though. It’s an interesting way to get your point across and could really cost you later down the road. The Airbus captain collecting 40 percent likely has legitimate issues that also affect his or her quality of life.
Cheers and thanks for providing your perspective.

Yes, if you have any conditions or old injuries, get a rating so you're covered in the future. It's really hard to go back years later and make a claim, it needs to be done upon separation (guard/reserves can do it following any extended federal AD).

If you don't want the money, ask for a 0%.

Billy Baroo
09-04-2018, 09:39 AM
It depends. Read ALL of the questions. If you've never been hospitalized, had surgery, or collected ANY disability benefits I think you're OK with unreported joint issues (I don't think you're required to report them).

But if you have a VA rating which results in you getting money from the US treasury (I'm strating to suspect you do), then you SHOULD be reporting that per 18(y). The question does not have caveats related to the other questions, it is very black and white. YOU don't get to decide whether the disability issue is relevant, the FAA wants the opportunity to do that for themselves.

The good news... even if you are getting disability and have not reported it, I *think* the feds are going after really low-hanging fruit, which is to say folks with OBVIOUSLY disqualifying conditions (ie mental health, diabetes). I don't *think* they want to prosecute anyone for not reporting a condition which would not even be a certification issue if disclosed.

If you've been getting VA payments but did NOT check the 18(y) box, then you probably need to fix that BEFORE they catch you. Call a lawyer. I'm pretty sure prosecution is not an issue for you. But getting your tickets revoked *might* be an issue if they catch you first. So I would be pro-active. As I've said before, if you're not flying with a disqualifying condition, and pro-actively correct your FAA record before they catch you, I suspect it's just a paperwork drill. But I serioulsy wouldn't stick your head in the sand.

The reason there are more than a few people in this boat has to do with military medicine culture. If you can do your job safely, what military medicine doesn't know won't hurt them... kind of don't ask, don't tell in most cases. But you CANNOT take that attitude to civil aviation... what the FAA doesn't know will get YOUR certs revoked and YOUR arse potentially thrown in federal prison.


It took the VA almost a year after I retired to determine my overall rating. Ever since that time, as I was a recipient of disability benefits I have checked "Yes" on the FAA form, but have not provided an explanation beyond stating "VA disability" in the remark section. My AME never even brought the issue up. I have not had surgery or medication, only physical therapy and chiropractic manipulation so I do not believe my issues would be any type of certification obstacle and I agree that it seems as if the FAA is looking for low hanging fruit and outright falsifications rather than simple omissions of minor details.

sherpster
09-04-2018, 10:29 AM
Yes, if you have any conditions or old injuries, get a rating so you're covered in the future. It's really hard to go back years later and make a claim, it needs to be done upon separation (guard/reserves can do it following any extended federal AD).

If you don't want the money, ask for a 0%.

Good advice above.
It is very hard to get a rating after leaving the service. I had what I thought was a well documented foot issue and decided 4 months after retiring to see if the VA would give me shoe inserts (tricare retired insurance wouldnt pay for them). I got denied because I never claimed it when I got out after 29yrs of service. I then claimed it and was denied. Retired in April and denied in September! I had what I thought to be bulletproof service connection with a bulletprooof diagnosis in service. Getting service connection, even 1 day after separating, is not as easy as I thought it would be. That whole thing was an eye opener. I now tell all retiring folks to at least document their issues (even if they dont really bother you right now) because coming back later may not be an option. Funny thing is the damn shoe inserts made my feet hurt worse so I dont wear them at all and I am getting surgery later this year to stop the pain.

rickair7777
09-04-2018, 11:37 AM
It took the VA almost a year after I retired to determine my overall rating. Ever since that time, as I was a recipient of disability benefits I have checked "Yes" on the FAA form, but have not provided an explanation beyond stating "VA disability" in the remark section. My AME never even brought the issue up. I have not had surgery or medication, only physical therapy and chiropractic manipulation so I do not believe my issues would be any type of certification obstacle and I agree that it seems as if the FAA is looking for low hanging fruit and outright falsifications rather than simple omissions of minor details.

"Technically" even physical therapy or chiropractor probably qualifies as "Visits to Health Professionals" and should be reported. Apparently even dental exams count although most folks probably don't report routine exams.

Again, if it doesn't impact your flying and isn't remotely a disqualifying condition, I doubt they're coming looking for you.

But if it was me, I'd just report it all, to get it in your record. Otherwise there's always that remote risk that if they DO go looking for something (perhaps for unrelated reasons), they might find a molehill to build on. Again, prosecution is a high bar (even if the FAA wanted to the DOJ won't touch trivial crap like that), but the FAA can take certificate action with little due process.

Gundriver64
09-04-2018, 04:30 PM
What are you saying here? 80% and you shouldn’t be able to pass a class 2?

I’m 90% and hold a class 1 and yes the FAA knows everything in my VA file. I know of others who are over 100% and hold all classes. One guy holds a MOH and Purple Heart with 2 leafs the equivalent of three Purple Hearts. Holds a class two and flies helicopters for a living.

A VA disability does not necessarily mean you are an invaled. There are many with high disability ratings that lead very productive lives.

What I'm saying is that this guy fraudulently got a 80% disability and was booted out of the military over it. Don't confuse military flight physical requirements with FAA physical requirements. They aren't the same beast. I knew an examiner who got a SODA with one missing eyeball (accident). You can't fly in the military with one eyeball...

Av8tr1
09-04-2018, 06:08 PM
What I'm saying is that this guy fraudulently got a 80% disability and was booted out of the military over it. Don't confuse military flight physical requirements with FAA physical requirements. They aren't the same beast. I knew an examiner who got a SODA with one missing eyeball (accident). You can't fly in the military with one eyeball...

I still don't understand. You can't get a VA disability rating until you are "out" of the military or getting a medical discharge (which would imply its not fraudulent). So until he is processed for discharge I don't think the VA will even look at him. Once you have a end of service date then you can apply.
https://www.benefits.va.gov/predischarge/


I know there is a C17 pilot flying in the Air Force with no legs and a few others that are still on active duty flying with missing limbs. So it is possible (not likely with one eye as you point out).

What I am having trouble with is the statement that the guy got a 80% rating fraudulently and was kicked out of the military FOR IT. They don't tend to rate you until you are out or on your way out. I could understand getting kicked out of the military and THEN getting an 80% rating fraudulently (which does happen sadly). But not the other way around. Your statement implies that he was kicked out FOR his 80% rating. And that's just not the way it works.

You generally can't get a disability rating until you are scheduled for end of service commitment. There must have been some other reason for his discharge from the military.

Not saying the guy isn't a duchenozzel just saying the way you are explaining it doesn't make sense to me.

rickair7777
09-04-2018, 07:24 PM
I still don't understand. You can't get a VA disability rating until you are "out" of the military or getting a medical discharge (which would imply its not fraudulent). So until he is processed for discharge I don't think the VA will even look at him. Once you have a end of service date then you can apply.
https://www.benefits.va.gov/predischarge/


I know there is a C17 pilot flying in the Air Force with no legs and a few others that are still on active duty flying with missing limbs. So it is possible (not likely with one eye as you point out).

What I am having trouble with is the statement that the guy got a 80% rating fraudulently and was kicked out of the military FOR IT. They don't tend to rate you until you are out or on your way out. I could understand getting kicked out of the military and THEN getting an 80% rating fraudulently (which does happen sadly). But not the other way around. Your statement implies that he was kicked out FOR his 80% rating. And that's just not the way it works.

You generally can't get a disability rating until you are scheduled for end of service commitment. There must have been some other reason for his discharge from the military.

Not saying the guy isn't a duchenozzel just saying the way you are explaining it doesn't make sense to me.

Generally, you cannot get a VA rating before discharge/retirement.

But it would be possible to leave AD, get a rating, and then rejoin AD, either on guard/reserve orders for a defined period, or an indefinite recall if needed.

Such a person would forfeit all VA disability pay while on AD.

So it would be possible to be on AD, with a disability rating (payments forfeit). Hypothetically if a fraud investigation occurred during that time period, you could get booted off AD. Going on AD with an 80% rating might plausibly cause someone to look into that...

Or he might have gotten kicked out of guard/reserve. You can have a rating and participate in guard/reserve (I do). You forfeit VA pay when on duty.

Gundriver64
09-05-2018, 04:24 AM
I still don't understand. You can't get a VA disability rating until you are "out" of the military or getting a medical discharge (which would imply its not fraudulent). So until he is processed for discharge I don't think the VA will even look at him. Once you have a end of service date then you can apply.
https://www.benefits.va.gov/predischarge/


I know there is a C17 pilot flying in the Air Force with no legs and a few others that are still on active duty flying with missing limbs. So it is possible (not likely with one eye as you point out).

What I am having trouble with is the statement that the guy got a 80% rating fraudulently and was kicked out of the military FOR IT. They don't tend to rate you until you are out or on your way out. I could understand getting kicked out of the military and THEN getting an 80% rating fraudulently (which does happen sadly). But not the other way around. Your statement implies that he was kicked out FOR his 80% rating. And that's just not the way it works.

You generally can't get a disability rating until you are scheduled for end of service commitment. There must have been some other reason for his discharge from the military.

Not saying the guy isn't a duchenozzel just saying the way you are explaining it doesn't make sense to me.

One can get a VA disability REFRADing from active duty transitioning into the Reserves. One can get a disability via a LOD following a deployment. One can also get a disability while being injured on AT/ADT as a Reservist. In this particular individual's case he REFRAD'd from AGR transitioned to TPU status and somehow managed to pick up this rating while going through the process (don't ask me how). An 80% disability implies some serious physical issues and having somebody on flight status with a valid upslip and no unusual waivers raises an eyebrow. It got noticed by the green tabbers and thankfully some justice eaked-out. Your example of aviators flying sans limbs are not typical and I'm sure these aviators had to go through some exhaustive process to get that waiver written.

Lastly, stop implying that I'm BS-ing you. I was involved in the administrative action(s) with this particular individual.

BlackhawkIP
09-05-2018, 01:16 PM
One can get a VA disability REFRADing from active duty transitioning into the Reserves. One can get a disability via a LOD following a deployment. One can also get a disability while being injured on AT/ADT as a Reservist. In this particular individual's case he REFRAD'd from AGR transitioned to TPU status and somehow managed to pick up this rating while going through the process (don't ask me how). An 80% disability implies some serious physical issues and having somebody on flight status with a valid upslip and no unusual waivers raises an eyebrow. It got noticed by the green tabbers and thankfully some justice eaked-out. Your example of aviators flying sans limbs are not typical and I'm sure these aviators had to go through some exhaustive process to get that waiver written.

Lastly, stop implying that I'm BS-ing you. I was involved in the administrative action(s) with this particular individual.

The only way to get a rating is through military separation; either through ETS, MEB/PEB, or retirement. Your guy must have REFRADed from AGR and went through the separation (ETS) physical and then joined a guard/reserve unit after separation (legal and easy to do). That would have allowed him to receive his VA physical and eventual VA rating. Self-reporting to the VA and submitting a form is the only way to stop the disability pay if rejoining the military. Collecting his VA disability pay (or any VA benefit for that matter) while back in the military is fraud, PERIOD.
Making a statement about collecting 80% disability and still flying without waivers "raises eyebrows" only tells of a lack of understanding of the VA or VA disability ratings in general.
I know of several pilots flying for the majors who have greater than 50% disability ratings. What is not realized is that the rating is a combined percentage of multiple injuries/disabilities. Easiest way to explain is give an example.

Let's look at LTC John Doe after 20 years AFS:

ACL tear/knee surgery (limited range of motion)=10%
Torn rotator cuff/surgery(limited range of motion)=10%
IBS (Iraq deployment; continued irritated stomach, diarrhea=30%
L5-S1 degeneration/bulging disc (hard landing, PL)=10%
Sciatica (left leg)=10%
Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (surgery)=0% (started flying a desk at MAJ:))
Tinitis (intermittent/occasional, Rt Ear, pistol range/flight line)=10%

This adds up to 80% but the combined VA ratings gives it 59% rounded up to a 60% disability. All of these injuries were due to his military service.

Can he still fly? Receive an FAA Class 1? Absolutely!

What is misunderstood is the individual ratings are added to a Combined Disability rating. A 10% disability is actually a 90% ABILITY. He is 90 ABLE or can do 90% of what someone without an injury can do. If LTC had not blown out his knee during his annual physical fitness test, he would be 100% able. But since he was injured during his time in service, on duty, he is compensated for that 10% ability lost.

When someone serves in the military for 20+ years, they are going to have multiple issues; hence the combined ratings. It doesn't mean they can't hold a meaningful job, fly, or have a 2nd career after their military service.

I have issues with scammers posing as disabled vets or non-disabled people parking in handicapped spots just as everyone else does. I don't have issues with my taxes compensating veterans for injuries incurred while serving in the military so other can pursue a life of self-service.

Rant over......fire away!

rickair7777
09-05-2018, 01:48 PM
The only way to get a rating is through military separation; either through ETS, MEB/PEB, or retirement. Your guy must have REFRADed from AGR and went through the separation (ETS) physical and then joined a guard/reserve unit after separation (legal and easy to do). That would have allowed him to receive his VA physical and eventual VA rating. Self-reporting to the VA and submitting a form is the only way to stop the disability pay if rejoining the military.

The VA is actually pretty good about catching it these days. It may take a while, and the will want the money back if you wait for them to figure it out.


Collecting his VA disability pay (or any VA benefit for that matter) while back in the military is fraud, PERIOD.


Extended AD, yes (>30 days?).

Guard/reserve (including drills, annual training, or short term orders), you can still collect from the VA, you just get a pro-rated reduction in benefits for every drill or day on orders.

PDRit
09-05-2018, 02:08 PM
I'm not disabled enough not to fly for a living either.
The VA has rules that say for XXX I get a disability rating.
The FAA says that I can get a waiver for that to fly.

Not a thing wrong with it and your cockles are irrelevant.

As long as you have reported to the FAA med your condition I don’t have a problem. However, if you are pulling a fast one then you should face the 5 years in prison also.

Maybe they will crack the case of the pilots using MIL leave for non MIL Leave duties?

All that Honor and Discipline that other mere mortals can’t fathom....

rickair7777
09-05-2018, 02:35 PM
Maybe they will crack the case of the pilots using MIL leave for non MIL Leave duties?

They? Who's they?

Employers can "crack" down if desired. They are free to contact the member's CO to verify any military leave. For some reason that almost never happens. I've been either CO or XO for many years, I would know. If one of my members was caught taking mil leave while not actually performing military duty I would terminate their career at the very least, kick them out if I could.

Instead, some employers seem to prefer stupid games and harassment in violation of federal law. Seems to me they are more interested in "cracking down" on the performance of legitimate military duty than catching the 1%.



All that Honor and Discipline that other mere mortals can’t fathom....

On average, most who have served take that seriously. Some who haven't served can't comprehend it, to them it's just a sarcastic joke.

PDRit
09-05-2018, 03:40 PM
They? Who's they?

Employers can "crack" down if desired. They are free to contact the member's CO to verify any military leave. For some reason that almost never happens. I've been either CO or XO for many years, I would know. If one of my members was caught taking mil leave while not actually performing military duty I would terminate their career at the very least, kick them out if I could.

Instead, some employers seem to prefer stupid games and harassment in violation of federal law. Seems to me they are more interested in "cracking down" on the performance of legitimate military duty than catching the 1%.




On average, most who have served take that seriously. Some who haven't served can't comprehend it, to them it's just a sarcastic joke.

So you admit that there is abuse of the mil leave system? (1% by your estimation) yet you defend them?

How is it harassment if the employer has a right to verify orders? In fact I would say it is a duty to the corporation to assure these are legitimate uses of MIL leave. You are upset and want to wrap yourself in the flag and USERRA, yet it is proven in these indictments that fraud is taking place.

So while you may be honorable your fellow flag/userra waivers who scoff at being questioned about their actions should be the ones ones you are angry with.

Obviously your skin is a bit thin so the humor was lost on you. Maybe a lighten up Francis is in order for you?

rickair7777
09-05-2018, 03:56 PM
So you admit that there is abuse of the mil leave system? (1% by your estimation) yet you defend them?

The "1%" is a figure of speech, referring to a very small fraction of bad apples which always seems to exist as part of the human condition.

I have heard anecdotally of folks abusing mil leave but have no firsthand experience. Since I've been around a long time I suspect that means it's very rare.


How is it harassment if the employer has a right to verify orders? In fact I would say it is a duty to the corporation to assure these are legitimate uses of MIL leave.

The law is very specific. I said the employers SHOULD verify mil duty in accordance with the law. That would essentially eliminate any abuse at all if every instance of mil leave was routinely verified. In most cases the ONLY legally acceptable means to do that is to contact the CO (believe me, he wants to know if people are claiming mil leavbe when not on duty). In some cases of long-duration orders, the employer may ask for a copy of the orders. Those are the ONLY two legal means for an employer to verify mil duty.

The harassment I referred to is any OTHER burdens imposed on mil members, ANY of which would be a violation of the law. This is quote common as HR and managers like to make up their own policies to discourage mil leave, essentially all of which are a violation of law.



You are upset and want to wrap yourself in the flag and USERRA, yet it is proven in these indictments that fraud is taking place.

Four indictments out of how many tens of thousands of vets with FAA certs?

Yes I'm upset because you've come where you obviously don't belong, weighed in things which you know nothing of, for the apparent purpose of venting your own personal angst against military members. I don't like people like you... either too much of a coward to serve, or didn't make the grade, and now resent others for their accomplishments.

Try improving yourself to build self-esteem, instead of trying to bring others down to your level. Get lost.

BlackhawkIP
09-05-2018, 04:45 PM
Guard/reserve (including drills, annual training, or short term orders), you can still collect from the VA, you just get a pro-rated reduction in benefits for every drill or day on orders.

Did not know that for part-time M-day/TPU mil folks, good to know. I was speaking of AD and my own personal experience.

MugsyMD
09-05-2018, 05:30 PM
I see this all the time - bottom line - see an AME with military / VA experience - there are not many around - I am ONE AME who has this type of background -

Contact me

FAAaeroMed.com

Thanks

galaxy flyer
09-05-2018, 05:38 PM
To tag on, PDRit, I’ve been a SQ/DO and Group Commander and never refused an employer’s request for verification of duty. I’ve taken calls from employers and issued LOR for one dude who thought he could use his unit as a way out of working. I was the DO when another officer thought using sick leave from his airline was OK to be on man-days. When caught, he was fired from the airline and discharged sans retirement from the military. There were aggravating circumstances, but that’s the gist of it.

No, honor is required and expected, as are flight skills. I’ve also participated in three Flying Evaluation Boards for flying deficiencies. Off came the wings for two of them.



Gf

155mm
09-05-2018, 06:31 PM
However, if you are pulling a fast one then you should face the 5 years in prison also.

IMHO:
Prison just screws the taxpayers out of $60,000 a year per inmate. The way to go is fines and community service to the order of 2000 hours a year for five years.

Prisons are big business and should be reserved for hardcore incorrigible inmates. Other offenders should literally pay for their crimes and not simply do time at the taxpayers expense. It's stealing twice!

PDRit
09-05-2018, 10:35 PM
.




Four indictments out of how many tens of thousands of vets with FAA certs?



Try improving yourself to build self-esteem, instead of trying to bring others down to your level. Get lost.

4 indictments so far....

I’ve flown with plenty of pilots over the years that have bragged about their abusing MIL LV. Sometimes “thumper” or “fig leaf “ can’t contain their themselves and feel the need to share how they are manipulating the system. They get defensive and cite USERRA as their shield when I’ve expressed how they are screwing their fellow pilots and their company.

As for your last comment, go ahead Col Jessup, we want you on that wall, we need you on that wall. 😂🤣

USMCFLYR
09-06-2018, 03:26 AM
As long as you have reported to the FAA med your condition I don’t have a problem. However, if you are pulling a fast one then you should face the 5 years in prison also.

Maybe they will crack the case of the pilots using MIL leave for non MIL Leave duties?

All that Honor and Discipline that other mere mortals can’t fathom....
Luckily having it properly documented was never in question in my case since I was on two military waivers for my last few years of flying; so the military, VA, and CAMI were on the same sheet of paper from the beginning.

rickair7777
09-06-2018, 07:10 AM
I’ve flown with plenty of pilots over the years that have bragged about their abusing MIL LV. Sometimes “thumper” or “fig leaf “ can’t contain their themselves and feel the need to share how they are manipulating the system. They get defensive and cite USERRA as their shield when I’ve expressed how they are screwing their fellow pilots and their company.

There are plenty of legal ways to "screw" the company and/or your fellow pilots. I don't do it, I don't like it, and I tell my folks not to do it if for no other reason than it makes us reservists look bad and impacts employment opportunities for those who come behind us.

But it's perfectly legal to schedule your mil any way you want if it's consistent with military requirements. Ie if they're willing to pay you, it's legal. Neither of us have to like it.

My command has several key active duty leaders, all of whom like to take leave out of town over the holidays. Each year they ask me if I want to go on orders for a couple weeks during holiday routine... all I have to do is come in every couple days (legal holiday liberty rules), check email, and be available in my hometown via phone if the command center needs something. Beats the heck out of flying a junior line, but I always say no. Doesn't feel right. Maybe I'm stupid. But again, legal. Same for guys who take orders for their first 1-2 years at the airline. I counsel folks not to do it, and will generally not approve such orders if there are other alternatives. But again, all legal, legal, legal. Nothing to crack down on, unless you want to get "invited" down to the federal building for a deposition on your business practices relative to USERRA.

What should be "cracked down on" is people taking mil leave while not performing mil duty. This is actually very easy to catch, 100% of the time, but many airlines seem to be too busy harassing and obstructing legit mil duty that they don't have time to perform the simple verification which they are permitted to do in all cases.





As for your last comment, go ahead Col Jessup, we want you on that wall, we need you on that wall. 😂🤣

GD Right.

tomgoodman
09-06-2018, 08:47 AM
I’ve flown with plenty of pilots over the years that have bragged about their abusing MIL LV. Sometimes “thumper” or “fig leaf “ can’t contain their themselves and feel the need to share how they are manipulating the system.

They bragged, eh? Maybe “thumper” and “fig leaf” were telling the truth, or maybe you revealed where your goat was tied and they decided to get it. ;)

scubadiver
09-06-2018, 01:44 PM
I'd be interested to know how many people receive VA benefits and have 1st class medicals. Seems like it's a bay area witch hunt for those nasty Trump loving veterans in what I would assume as the predominantly liberal northern California.

I would guess that MOST people with any class medical have omitted some sort of information on the path toward getting a medical, intentional or not. It all comes down to self preservation. I am not suggesting that someone lie about something that will affect safety, not at all, but I think most people have omitted SOMETHING. Any omission is technically the exact same as the four bay area guys that are being charged.

rickair7777
09-06-2018, 04:14 PM
I'd be interested to know how many people receive VA benefits and have 1st class medicals. Seems like it's a bay area witch hunt for those nasty Trump loving veterans in what I would assume as the predominantly liberal northern California.

I would guess that MOST people with any class medical have omitted some sort of information on the path toward getting a medical, intentional or not. It all comes down to self preservation. I am not suggesting that someone lie about something that will affect safety, not at all, but I think most people have omitted SOMETHING. Any omission is technically the exact same as the four bay area guys that are being charged.

I have never heard of the FAA coming looking for minor omissions. I have heard of folks getting in trouble if inconsistencies come to light due to circumstances, but I think that depends on the seriousness. If you forgot to report your annual dental exam one year, I really doubt that would ever be an issue. It's probably a good idea to get any omissions resolved. You have to make your own decision as to how serious an omission might be, and what are the odds that it will ever come to light. There's some small risk of getting in trouble if you try to correct the record after the fact, but it's small I think. I'd go through a lawyer with experience in this area.

The only prosecutions I've heard of involved obviously disqualifying medical conditions, some of which came to light due to in-flight incapacitation.

The only times I'm aware of where the FAA conducted witch hunts, ie went looking for inconsistencies, it involved , again, serious disqualifying conditions. So far I'm aware of the VA thing, plus one a few years ago involving social security disability.

The DOJ will not attempt to prosecute anything which the jury will not see as an obvious big problem (even if the FAA wanted to). They have more important things to do. But the FAA can revoke your certs unilaterally, and there's little due process on that.

zondaracer
09-06-2018, 05:03 PM
In the case of Cooper vs the FAA, which was the result of Operation Safe Pilot (when the FAA cross referenced social security disability records with the pilot database), the defendant did not report HIV on his medical and he was slapped with two years of probation and a $10,000 fine, plus loss of his certificates for a time period (later reinstated). I am not sure what the other penalties were for more egregious omissions.

scubadiver
09-06-2018, 07:11 PM
Was there an incapacitation or something that prompted the four mentioned in the article to be investigated? Doesn't say in the article that I recall.

Sluggo_63
09-07-2018, 01:22 AM
I was the DO when another officer thought using sick leave from his airline was OK to be on man-days. When caught, he was fired from the airline and discharged sans retirement from the military. There were aggravating circumstances, but that’s the gist of it.Was he actually sick? As in unable to fly? If he actually was sick (unable to fly), what would be wrong with going into his unit for ground duty? I can think of a score of reasons why someone would call in sick for their airline job/take themselves off the flying schedule at their Guard/Reserve unit but still be able to come in and man a shop, do LMS, etc.

galaxy flyer
09-07-2018, 07:21 AM
Was he actually sick? As in unable to fly? If he actually was sick (unable to fly), what would be wrong with going into his unit for ground duty? I can think of a score of reasons why someone would call in sick for their airline job/take themselves off the flying schedule at their Guard/Reserve unit but still be able to come in and man a shop, do LMS, etc.

He wasn’t sick, he was flying a trip for the Reserves. That was the problem.

GF

OrionDriver
09-07-2018, 07:37 AM
Was he actually sick? As in unable to fly? If he actually was sick (unable to fly), what would be wrong with going into his unit for ground duty? I can think of a score of reasons why someone would call in sick for their airline job/take themselves off the flying schedule at their Guard/Reserve unit but still be able to come in and man a shop, do LMS, etc.

Depending on what type of sick they are - i.e. do they have a head cold, flu, something like that, then they should not go to work anywhere! I despise it when sick people come in to work and spread their illness. Stay home, get healthy.

Now if he had a broken hand or some such non-contagious ailment that simply downed him from flying, that seems reasonable to pull man-days at the office - so long as they just drop mil-leave at their employer.

PDRit
09-07-2018, 04:17 PM
They bragged, eh? Maybe “thumper” and “fig leaf” were telling the truth, or maybe you revealed where your goat was tied and they decided to get it. ;)

I don’t think the guys were interested in my goat. They were so self absorbed I am not sure they would have been able to acknowledge existence of my goat. Although that’s not to say they wouldn’t have had inclinations toward a goat....as long as it was the pretty goat that liked big watches.

USMCFLYR
09-08-2018, 02:13 AM
It is interesting to watch a chip on the shoulder actually grow larger with every post :D

PDRit
09-08-2018, 03:40 AM
It is interesting to watch a chip on the shoulder actually grow larger with every post :D

There you go.....whatever you want to believe that makes you feel good and justifies you self worth.

I was told the marine word for airplane was to point to the sky and say “ugh ugh”! Thought maybe you would know? ;-)

USMCFLYR
09-08-2018, 05:07 AM
There you go.....whatever you want to believe that makes you feel good and justifies you self worth.

I was told the marine word for airplane was to point to the sky and say “ugh ugh”! Thought maybe you would know? ;-)

You try to hard :D

PDRit
09-08-2018, 05:53 AM
You try to hard :D

It’s “too”......I rest my case...;-)

rated
09-08-2018, 07:27 AM
The FAA has been working to develop the "safe pilot" program since 2005. The Office of the Inspector General for the Social Security Administration (SSA) cross-checks randomly selected applicants for FAA airman medical certificates with the SSA disability database to determine if any applicants are receiving disability benefits from SSA.

More info here: https://www.leftseat.com/federal-aviation-administration-faa-2/




In the case of Cooper vs the FAA, which was the result of Operation Safe Pilot (when the FAA cross referenced social security disability records with the pilot database), the defendant did not report HIV on his medical and he was slapped with two years of probation and a $10,000 fine, plus loss of his certificates for a time period (later reinstated). I am not sure what the other penalties were for more egregious omissions.

USMCFLYR
09-08-2018, 07:34 AM
It’s “too”......I rest my case...;-)

AAnd your tooooo eazy ;)

PDRit
09-08-2018, 07:40 AM
AAnd your tooooo eazy ;)

It’s “you’re”. At least we know you are a real Marine.

USMCFLYR
09-08-2018, 08:44 AM
It’s “you’re”. At least we know you are a real Marine.

And you take bait like a running salmon!
:eek:

Ok.....you guys were right.
It isn’t fun or even a challenge anymore.

conoblep
09-12-2018, 06:28 AM
I'm following the cases, since the indictments are public record through the PACER database in the SFO US district court. What I am more interested in (call it a morbid fascination) is the mechanism the FAA found out about the discrepancies. Fishing expeditions by agencies are expressly forbidden by federal law. Release of medical records are protected under privacy act laws, and we don't sign a medical release when we apply for an FAA medical (other than the NDR check, which we expressly authorize). The statement simply means the FAA will cross-check databases if able, which doesn't authorize a release of protected data. My completely uneducated guess would be to agree with the sentiment earlier in the thread that the FAA somehow used a non-protected means to gain enough probable cause to issue a subpoena. Also, sort of related... Why does this always happen in NorCal? Didn't the last round of this type of prosecution take place in NorCal?

SaltyDog
09-13-2018, 10:47 AM
IRS is a conduit used in the past. States can access federal tax records. through disclosure laws IRC 6103 stuff). States in past looked at differences between federal and state taxes. Once any fraud is suspected, its potentially criminal and then subpoenas of other records (FAA medical forms, VA, Social Security? ) I suspect are accessed lawfully under criminal investigation. Prosecutions of similar FAA and VA cases years ago followed a nearly same path.

Smooth at FL450
09-13-2018, 12:24 PM
I'm following the cases, since the indictments are public record through the PACER database in the SFO US district court. What I am more interested in (call it a morbid fascination) is the mechanism the FAA found out about the discrepancies. Fishing expeditions by agencies are expressly forbidden by federal law. Release of medical records are protected under privacy act laws, and we don't sign a medical release when we apply for an FAA medical (other than the NDR check, which we expressly authorize). The statement simply means the FAA will cross-check databases if able, which doesn't authorize a release of protected data. My completely uneducated guess would be to agree with the sentiment earlier in the thread that the FAA somehow used a non-protected means to gain enough probable cause to issue a subpoena. Also, sort of related... Why does this always happen in NorCal? Didn't the last round of this type of prosecution take place in NorCal?


This is how...

https://www.leftseat.com/federal-aviation-administration-faa-2/

bh539
09-13-2018, 09:04 PM
So do you check the box for receiving disability benefits if you have a military disability rating?

I'm considering filing for a shoulder dislocation I got on active duty but since I wasn't hospitalized (I'm assuming that means you were admitted as inpatient) it doesn't fit in the other boxes. I don't want to have to jump through a bunch of hoops though for 10-20%

scubadiver
09-13-2018, 09:15 PM
Sure why not, I sincerely doubt the AME or the FAA gives a crap about a shoulder dislocation. I check it for my VA disabilities. Check a box if need be. No big deal.

Excargodog
09-14-2018, 06:46 AM
So do you check the box for receiving disability benefits if you have a military disability rating?

I'm considering filing for a shoulder dislocation I got on active duty but since I wasn't hospitalized (I'm assuming that means you were admitted as inpatient) it doesn't fit in the other boxes. I don't want to have to jump through a bunch of hoops though for 10-20%

As long as the history claimed on the FAA physical and VA paperwork MATCH and you can pass a FAA class 1 there isn't a problem. The problem comes when you tell one story to the VA and a different one to the VA.

PDRit
09-18-2018, 06:08 AM
Looks like the https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt--politics/delta-pilot-accused-lying-about-mental-health-issues-keep-flying/x9NZ6v6ufqewPaQRC8QpGL/

Well that’s just a bit of a stretch....

Better get USERRA involved and the “how can you question my integrity” chant going.

rickair7777
09-18-2018, 07:54 AM
Looks like the https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt--politics/delta-pilot-accused-lying-about-mental-health-issues-keep-flying/x9NZ6v6ufqewPaQRC8QpGL/

Well that’s just a bit of a stretch....

Better get USERRA involved and the “how can you question my integrity” chant going.

You've got a pretty big axe to grind, must have really wanted to be in the military when they rejected you.

This is one of the pilots identified in the original story, ie nothing new.

But yes, this guy probably needs the book thrown at him.

PDRit
09-18-2018, 08:31 AM
You've got a pretty big axe to grind, must have really wanted to be in the military when they rejected you.

This is one of the pilots identified in the original story, ie nothing new.

But yes, this guy probably needs the book thrown at him.

I have no axe to grind. There are certainly some honorable people in the military. However my exposure to them at the airline has been for the most part those looking to cut corners, cheat the system and beat their chest. They are quick to yell for USERRA and always start with the “i can’t believe the company, other pilots etc would question my integrity “. All while boasting about something nefarious they did or planning to do.

I’m at the end of my career so I wouldn’t change a thing. I’ve been very fortunate and try to be a professional in my work and an accountable and responsible employee to my company. It does irritates me when I see pilots tarnish this profession with greed.

Pilot Muscle
09-18-2018, 10:55 AM
I just read an article today about a Delta Pilot, with prior Air Force service, who had a major depression claim filed with the VA and lied to the FAA saying he never had depression or anxiety while doing his annual class 1 medical. Long story short, he is locked up in prison and won't be flying for a while. :eek:

rickair7777
09-18-2018, 03:00 PM
I just read an article today about a Delta Pilot, with prior Air Force service, who had a major depression claim filed with the VA and lied to the FAA saying he never had depression or anxiety while doing his annual class 1 medical. Long story short, he is locked up in prison and won't be flying for a while. :eek:

Yes, he's one of the four. Pretty sure he lost his certs and job, but don't know about prison yet. But based on previous similar cases of blatant falsification, he might well be doing club fed.

RadialGal
09-19-2018, 11:08 AM
Last thing we need here is a German Wings or another Auburn Calloway.

beis77
09-19-2018, 08:50 PM
Yes, he's one of the four. Pretty sure he lost his certs and job, but don't know about prison yet. But based on previous similar cases of blatant falsification, he might well be doing club fed.

This one hits sort of close to home, I know the guy. Good dude, he was my co-pilot back in ‘05. He clearly made an egregious error here. That said, he served for twenty and retired. I hope for his sake and the sake of his family (wife and small kid) that he just gets a fine and no club Fed. He’s already been fired and won’t ever get hired by an airline again - losing one’s dream job and having a permanent record with a fine seems like penalty enough, (to me at least); without also completely destroying the guy and his family with prison time. I suppose it’s different when you know the people involved...

Excargodog
09-20-2018, 04:59 PM
I remember getting my retirement briefings. I remember the volunteer from the VFW and others talking about VA disability with a wink and a nod. And there were no end if people who were willing to "represent" you to the VA , sometimes for money, sometimes because they thought they were being helpful to "coach you" on "how to maximize your VA disability ENTITLEMENT."

https://taskandpurpose.com/8-steps-will-help-improve-va-disability-claim/

https://www.veteranslawblog.org/va-disability-ratings/

https://ptsdlawyers.com/increase-veterans-disability-benefits/

Now some of these people - mainly the volunteers - are simply trying to help people navigate a screwed up system. A lot of them however, especially the play for pay ones - essentially coach you on the things to say to get a disability. Psych disabilities are the easiest. Most of them, like PTSD and depression, have no real objective findings and require none to make the diagnosis. Get enough right answers on your DSM-5 criteria and you have it made. Anyone coached properly is almost certain to get the diagnosis and the VA compensation. Basically anyone separating or retiring can defraud the system - if they are willing to perjure themselves. And there are plenty of shysters out there willing to encourage you to do it.

The fact is, anyone with PTSD or a Major Depressive disorder severe enough to warrant CURRENT significant disability probably wouldn't be separating and retiring at all, they'd be TDRL'd until recovered or medically retired. So either this gentleman had it and got over it - in which case he probably ought to have gotten a 0% disability as a placeholder in case the situation worsened, or he never had it at all. Yeah, that's cold, but if he was willing to lie to the FAA there is no good reason to believe he wouldn't have been willing to lie to the VA.

And this is just dumb as dirt, particularly for retiring people because for them it doesn't so much affect the amount of retirement you get as it does the tax status of retirement income you were already going to get.

The fact of the matter is that if this guy put in his twenty and had a standard (not medical) retirement, he is almost certainly not at serious risk for significant problems flying. Even if he had a history of major depressive disorder, they almost certainly would have waived it, albeit perhaps making him jump through a few certufication hoops perhaps, but most likely just accepting the military work up and medical waiver which he would have had to have had if the episode was at all serious - ESPECIALLY SINCE HE WAS A FLYER and even if he was not actively flying because he was in a non flying billet and had met his gates.

So this really ISN'T someone concealing a disqualifying defect in a desperate attempt to continue flying, it was someone trying to game the system for a few hundred bucks a month in tax benefits.

And yeah, he's going to pay an awful price for that, but as the old John Wayne meme goes:

sherpster
09-20-2018, 08:00 PM
Well if he wasnt depressed before then I bet he is now.

rickair7777
09-20-2018, 08:02 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right. He was gaming the system most likely. It's a cultural thing, and you get encouraged to do it when you leave. But an O4+ with 20+ should be smarter than that.

A Squared
09-20-2018, 08:06 PM
Well if he wasnt depressed before then I bet he is now.


:eek::) haha

scubadiver
09-20-2018, 08:14 PM
It's a cultural thing, and you get encouraged to do it when you leave.

Many folks on here will never understand exactly what you said... They want to burn him (them) at the stake and don't know what they would do in that same situation, nor are the details even known. This is no different than protesters in the street wanting justice for an officer involved shooting without knowing any facts, it's mob mentality.

Burn the witch, she turned me into a newt!

I love how our federal prosecutors go for the low hanging fruit like this. So many of our politicians and celebrity's get away with crap 10x worse than any of us have, or ever will, do and it's acceptable because they have the money, connections, and lawyers to get away with whatever they want.

I don't know the facts of the case or anything so personally, I will withhold judgement.

A Squared
09-20-2018, 08:33 PM
Many folks on here will never understand exactly what you said...


That may be true, but it's not particularly relevant. The issue here isn't the sirens tempting you with VA riches at separation. The issue is him perjuring himself on an FAA medical application. Some of us may not have gone though separation from the military, but I'm pretty sure that with a very few exceptions, we've all filled out a FAA medical application, and we understand that just fine. So spare us the condescending "you don't understand because you weren't in the ....yadda yadda yadda" horesecrap. This seems to be exactly what PDRit was predicting.

scubadiver
09-20-2018, 09:11 PM
The issue is him perjuring himself on an FAA medical application.

Yes, and I am not saying it is right, I am just saying try not to jump to a verdict. I bet most everyone could probably be found guilty of this if the search was thorough enough, even if it was something small and a non-issue. Trip to the doc because you thought you had an ingrown toenail, and forgot to mention it? Then you are also just as guilty.

All that said, I believe it is best to be honest and forthcoming, regardless of whether you may lose a medical. Most FAA people I have met and dealt with are nice and want to keep us flying if any way possible, but you may need to jump through some hoops.

I can also imagine when you have been flying for most of your life the temptation to omit may be greater. Someone could get into a spot where they can't afford to lose their ability to fly so they risk it by omitting.

sherpster
09-21-2018, 03:27 AM
Many folks on here will never understand exactly what you said... They want to burn him (them) at the stake and don't know what they would do in that same situation, nor are the details even known. This is no different than protesters in the street wanting justice for an officer involved shooting without knowing any facts, it's mob mentality.

Burn the witch, she turned me into a newt!

I love how our federal prosecutors go for the low hanging fruit like this. So many of our politicians and celebrity's get away with crap 10x worse than any of us have, or ever will, do and it's acceptable because they have the money, connections, and lawyers to get away with whatever they want.

I don't know the facts of the case or anything so personally, I will withhold judgement.

He gambled and lost. Dont make excuses for his poor actions. This wasnt some shoulder injury he forgot to mention.

rickair7777
09-21-2018, 06:59 AM
For clarity, it's understandable how someone could load up their VA rating on the way out, that's what we're all told to do by the experts who advise us on our transition to the civilian world (which many of us have no prior experience in).

Also understandable that some folks (maybe most folks) could have minor discrepancies from forgotten minor ailments or injuries in the past.

But claiming an OBVIOUS grounding condition with the VA and then NOT checking the box with the FAA is pretty darn blatant. Hard to come up with any mitigating scenario, unless he hypothetically got "competent" advice from a lawyer or AME to do that for whatever reason, in which case he probably has grounds for a big lawsuit.

The fed's enforcement of the felony aspect has been pretty consistent: You have to either go on record contradicting yourself with disability benefits for a grounding condition, or become incapacitated in flight with a grounding condition which you were aware of and didn't report. Those are both egregious and pretty easy to prove.

I don't *think* they're going to start scouring records in search of forgotten hangnails.

PDRit
09-21-2018, 07:11 AM
Many folks on here will never understand exactly what you said... They want to burn him (them) at the stake and don't know what they would do in that same situation, nor are the details even known. This is no different than protesters in the street wanting justice for an officer involved shooting without knowing any facts, it's mob mentality.

Burn the witch, she turned me into a newt!

I love how our federal prosecutors go for the low hanging fruit like this. So many of our politicians and celebrity's get away with crap 10x worse than any of us have, or ever will, do and it's acceptable because they have the money, connections, and lawyers to get away with whatever they want.

I don't know the facts of the case or anything so personally, I will withhold judgement.

Thanks for making my point about Militart pilots...

Excargodog
09-21-2018, 08:09 AM
Thanks for making my point about Militart pilots...

Did my comment ALSO make your point about military pilots? Just wondering....

:rolleyes:

scubadiver
09-21-2018, 10:52 AM
Thanks for making my point about Militart pilots...

FYI, not a military pilot at all.. but glad you confirm how easily you can solve something with no facts.

Stimpy the Kat
09-21-2018, 12:18 PM
" Trip to the doc because you thought you had an ingrown toenail, and forgot to mention it? Then you are also just as guilty."

No. You are not. Very poor analogy.

We are all capable ( and, probably guilty ) of accidentally forgetting a visit to a given doctor for a minor problem. NBD.

But "forgetting" that you have a Disability rating from your former Employer-The U.S. Military AND, that you have been receiving A CHECK EVERY MONTH for that Disability is hardly analogous to the above.

It is a blatant deception...Otherwise known as " You are a Fuc&ing LIAR. "

NO SOUP...JAIL FOR YOU!

:(

scubadiver
09-21-2018, 01:00 PM
No. You are not. Very poor analogy.


Ok, maybe not JUST AS GUILTY, but still technically guilty. If you go 60mph in a 55mph zone, its speeding and illlegal. You go 30 over and its speeding too but it's a little harder to believe one wasn't aware.

Both are illegal. Granted, one is a little more forgivable as an error and likely to incur lower punishment, if any. Point is, you can get a ticket for either.

PDRit
09-21-2018, 05:42 PM
Did my comment ALSO make your point about military pilots? Just wondering....

:rolleyes:

You miss the back and forth I had with the mil guy that said he was allegedly spelling incorrectly on purpose.....seeing if he would take the bait. But found another.

Back to the issue at hand. Breaking a speed limit versus lying and claiming fraudulent benefits are not a good comparison. That is why there are felonies and misdemeanors. You are familiar with those terms I suppose?

You defending this guy is so typical of the guys I have flown with. All the bragging about claiming guard duty to avoid weekends and holidays at the airline. Or how they were getting the summer vacation they couldn’t hold in seniority with fake guard duty claims. Even had an FO that was retiring talking about he he was going to claim Mil disability and all the grounding conditions he had. But if they raised the retirement age he would be sure to stay

Excargodog
09-21-2018, 07:29 PM
You miss the back and forth I had with the mil guy that said he was allegedly spelling incorrectly on purpose.....seeing if he would take the bait. But found another.



You defending this guy is so typical of the guys I have flown with.


You accuse me of missing a back and forth you had - which I did not - but didn't even read my posting before replying. I didn't defend him, I accused him of fraud.

I am objective enough to call out those former military members who do things that are illegal, immoral, or just plain stupid. Are you objective enough to even look at what I posted before assuming I'm an apologist for all ex-military?

Apparently not.

conoblep
09-22-2018, 05:49 AM
Some depressing food for thought, after reading that at least one of the pilots mixed up in the indictments was pulling military retirement. If a person is pulling any sort of retirement, they are technically still in a reserve component of the DoD (USMC retirees are part of the FMCR while pulling retired pay, the Air Force is the 'Retired Reserve'). Which means they are still subject to the UCMJ. Which means the Air Force could go after him for misconduct and take his retirement away if he is convicted.

CX500T
09-22-2018, 06:38 AM
I have been dealing with the VA for 7+ years. The system is jacked up to say the least.

I filed for stuff that was broken on active duty (I have pretty severe orthopedic injuries and burns that the FAA knows about) and the VA for years has dragged on and on and on with exam after exam.

Every time I go in to an actual VA facility vs a contracted out one, they try to get me to amend my claim to include PTSD and TBI. They tell me that "you will get 100% no questions asked if you ask for it" based on severity of my orthopedic injuries.

Funny thing is the Navy assessed me for both, found I have neither (and the tests were pretty thorough) but the VA wants to push people to claim those.

Not that it makes what these four are accused of right, but that's how the VA themselves tries to steer guys.

In my case, they keep on telling me to file for things I don't have, but cant' be proven I don't if I say the right things, but won't give me a rating for the six pounds of hardware holding my legs and back together.

The system is jacked, and openly encourages people to claim **** that cant' be disproved.

Smooth at FL450
09-22-2018, 06:53 AM
Some depressing food for thought, after reading that at least one of the pilots mixed up in the indictments was pulling military retirement. If a person is pulling any sort of retirement, they are technically still in a reserve component of the DoD (USMC retirees are part of the FMCR while pulling retired pay, the Air Force is the 'Retired Reserve'). Which means they are still subject to the UCMJ. Which means the Air Force could go after him for misconduct and take his retirement away if he is convicted.


Only "depressing" if his actions were unintentional. Not depressing at all if he got caught cheating the system.

scubadiver
09-22-2018, 02:08 PM
Only "depressing" if his actions were unintentional. Not depressing at all if he got caught cheating the system.

Agreed.. I surely don't want to defend an intentional liar.

Packrat
09-22-2018, 02:13 PM
You defending this guy is so typical of the guys I have flown with. All the bragging about claiming guard duty to avoid weekends and holidays at the airline.

We had a pilot at my reserve squadron who told NWA he had SDO duty the week of Christmas.

Well, NWA called to check and found out he wasn't there. They fired him.

scubadiver
09-22-2018, 03:06 PM
We had a pilot at my reserve squadron who told NWA he had SDO duty the week of Christmas.

Well, NWA called to check and found out he wasn't there. They fired him.

Damn, Ice Cube and Dre have no heart!

rickair7777
09-22-2018, 05:02 PM
Some depressing food for thought, after reading that at least one of the pilots mixed up in the indictments was pulling military retirement. If a person is pulling any sort of retirement, they are technically still in a reserve component of the DoD (USMC retirees are part of the FMCR while pulling retired pay, the Air Force is the 'Retired Reserve'). Which means they are still subject to the UCMJ. Which means the Air Force could go after him for misconduct and take his retirement away if he is convicted.

Incredibly unlikely for something like this. Retirees (who are actually on "retainer" pay until a certain age or number of years) are subject to recall but that is incredibly rare, and probably only going to happen for serious crimes against national security, ie espionage.

Excargodog
09-23-2018, 07:20 AM
Incredibly unlikely for something like this. Retirees (who are actually on "retainer" pay until a certain age or number of years) are subject to recall but that is incredibly rare, and probably only going to happen for serious crimes against national security, ie espionage.

If you are a Regular (as opposed to Reserve) officer, they own you even after retirement, although I agree that I think the likelihood of you being called back into active service for strictly disciplinary matters is small. For other "needs of the service," well, it could always happen, either singly or in bunches:

Air Force: Pilots recalled under Trump order will serve as instructors, staff
By: Stephen Losey   October 23, 2017


The Air Force expects fewer than 200 retired pilots will return to active duty and serve as instructor pilots and in rated staff positions under an executive order issued by President Trump. (Staff Sgt. Caycee R. Cook/Air Force)

The Air Force expects fewer than 200 retired pilots will return to active duty and serve as instructor pilots and in rated staff positions under an executive order issued by President Trump.

The Pentagon originally said after the order was signed Friday that as many as 1,000 retired pilots could be brought back for up to three years. But in a gaggle with reporters Monday at the Pentagon, Brig. Gen. Mike Koscheski, the head of a task force dedicated to fixing the Air Force’s pilot shortfall, said it likely won’t be that many.

rickair7777
09-23-2018, 03:24 PM
The AF stated their intent was voluntary recalls only, although the authorization was not limited to that.

After decades in the Navy I've seen only a couple retiree recalls, a couple seals, a couple nuke submariners, and a guy who was the only guy qualified to service a complex piece of medical gear.

Excargodog
09-23-2018, 09:45 PM
The AF stated their intent was voluntary recalls only, although the authorization was not limited to that.

After decades in the Navy I've seen only a couple retiree recalls, a couple seals, a couple nuke submariners, and a guy who was the only guy qualified to service a complex piece of medical gear.


Likely? Not unless there is a general mobilization, but possible? Oh yes.



Anyone intending to join the military - especially to accept a Regular commission, at least ought to be aware of the rules. Google this and it will send you to a PDF:


DOD Directive 1352.1 - Management and Mobilization of Regular and Reserve Retired Military Members

sherpster
09-24-2018, 02:26 AM
There are zero involuntary retired recalls. Throw the letter in the trash. Those guys all wanted to come back.

Han Solo
09-25-2018, 08:03 AM
The AF stated their intent was voluntary recalls only, although the authorization was not limited to that.

After decades in the Navy I've seen only a couple retiree recalls, a couple seals, a couple nuke submariners, and a guy who was the only guy qualified to service a complex piece of medical gear.

I wasn't that great of an officer when I (kind of) wanted to be there, I can only imagine how much my boss' life would suck if I was recalled involuntarily (probably just a little less than mine).

rickair7777
09-25-2018, 02:49 PM
Likely? Not unless there is a general mobilization, but possible? Oh yes.



Anyone intending to join the military - especially to accept a Regular commission, at least ought to be aware of the rules. Google this and it will send you to a PDF:


DOD Directive 1352.1 - Management and Mobilization of Regular and Reserve Retired Military Members

If there's a general mob, anyone who's fresh enough off of AD to be of interest to the government will probably be needing a job anyhow... something like that would be worth at least a 20% across the board airline furlough.

PropCop
10-01-2018, 07:17 AM
That’s funny and a great way to look at it....Place me in the same category.

Big C
11-02-2018, 07:38 PM
To tag on, PDRit, I’ve been a SQ/DO and Group Commander and never refused an employer’s request for verification of duty. I’ve taken calls from employers and issued LOR for one dude who thought he could use his unit as a way out of working. I was the DO when another officer thought using sick leave from his airline was OK to be on man-days. When caught, he was fired from the airline and discharged sans retirement from the military. There were aggravating circumstances, but that’s the gist of it.

No, honor is required and expected, as are flight skills. I’ve also participated in three Flying Evaluation Boards for flying deficiencies. Off came the wings for two of them.



Gf

I hope you’re proud of yourself! You sound like you have a solid record of screwing people, right or wrong.

Excargodog
11-02-2018, 08:51 PM
I hope you’re proud of yourself! You sound like you have a solid record of screwing people, right or wrong.

You expect a certain standard of integrity in the military. If the person doesn't have that, you don't want them on your wing - or with access to weapons and munitions designed to break things and kill people. It's as simple as that.

If you can't understand that the problem is you, not galaxy flyer living up to the standards required of an organization commander.

rickair7777
11-03-2018, 05:20 PM
I hope you’re proud of yourself! You sound like you have a solid record of screwing people, right or wrong.

Sounds to me like he did the right thing. The military is not some kind of mafia which protects it's own at all costs :confused:

A Squared
11-03-2018, 09:50 PM
I hope you’re proud of yourself! You sound like you have a solid record of screwing people, right or wrong.


So what would be your expectations that he do when one of the guys under his command tells his employer that he has guard/reserve duty to get out of work, when there actually was no duty, and that employer calls him to verify the duty?



It *sounds* like you'd expect him to lie, and tell the employer that the guy did have duty, but I could be misunderstanding you, so thought I'd ask you and let you explain what you meant.

galaxy flyer
11-04-2018, 04:42 PM
These members screwed themselves, I’m not compromising my integrity to shield them from their own folly. I was the Board President for an FEB where the pilot officer before the board had a history of failures and very nearly put a plane in sea killing all on board. Would you expect me just let a poor performance continue? If an officer told you, as their commander, to pound sand and refused to maintain medical and flight qualifications, should just roll over and let it pass?

Some posters here seem to think all military officers are either integrity challenged or pricks for holding subordinates to account. Well, which is it? To tell the truth, there are a spectrum of officers and pilots just like anywhere.

GF

JohnBurke
11-05-2018, 07:00 PM
One of the things which has consistently impressed me the most in military leadership is the ability to have the integrity to take a standard seriously and to hold it. If the military were a plant, integrity would be the cell walls that give it structure and strength. Take that away, and there's nothing.

Honor counts for something.

It counts for everything.

Without a counterbalance it has no meaning. One who has honor needs no penalty to oppose, but one who lacks it most definitely needs the other side of the coin, and failure to apply it obliterates the meaning. Lip service is mindless and without meaning. Accountability gives meaning. Those who have honor and integrity understand this all too well and rise to the occasion. Those who lack the honor and integrity to do what they ought tend to whine that they've been "screwed."

Such comments say more about the speaker than the person holding them accountable.

airbus300
11-24-2018, 05:11 PM
..........