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View Full Version : Envoy Air bonus repayment


NeedsMoreCowbel
09-01-2018, 07:11 PM
I am currently an FO assigned the God forsaken CRJ 700. I was one of the last to be hired on the thing in the past several months. The main reason I picked envoy was the dallas base which wouldíve made my commute very easy. Now I am base locked (ORD only A/C) and with envoys policy I am seat locked as an FO indefinitely. PSA continues to push back the date they will take more of the CRJs ( now FEB 2020), I am planning to leave ASAP because I am flying 10-15 hours a month and no weekends off with min pay and will continue like this for another 8-12 months probably longer since we are losing more and more lines every month. Since I took the bonus I am now an indentured servant to the company for 24 months.
1.Does anyone know how this repayment process works?
2. If I was hired December 15th 2017 can I quit in December 16th 2018, Or do I have to complete a full 12 calendar months as in January 1st 2019 would be my last day?
3. Does anyone know how long it takes for them to ask for the money, Iíve heard some people claim they never got contacted?


MD-11Loader
09-01-2018, 08:55 PM
I am currently an FO assigned the God forsaken CRJ 700. I was one of the last to be hired on the thing in the past several months. The main reason I picked envoy was the dallas base which wouldíve made my commute very easy. Now I am base locked (ORD only A/C) and with envoys policy I am seat locked as an FO indefinitely. PSA continues to push back the date they will take more of the CRJs ( now FEB 2020), I am planning to leave ASAP because I am flying 10-15 hours a month and no weekends off with min pay and will continue like this for another 8-12 months probably longer since we are losing more and more lines every month. Since I took the bonus I am now an indentured servant to the company for 24 months.
1.Does anyone know how this repayment process works?
2. If I was hired December 15th 2017 can I quit in December 16th 2018, Or do I have to complete a full 12 calendar months as in January 1st 2019 would be my last day?
3. Does anyone know how long it takes for them to ask for the money, Iíve heard some people claim they never got contacted?

You should look at the seniority lists. Thereís a lot of movement coming on the CRJ soon.

Whiskey4
09-02-2018, 05:22 AM
I am currently an FO assigned the God forsaken CRJ 700. I was one of the last to be hired on the thing in the past several months. The main reason I picked envoy was the dallas base which wouldíve made my commute very easy. Now I am base locked (ORD only A/C) and with envoys policy I am seat locked as an FO indefinitely. PSA continues to push back the date they will take more of the CRJs ( now FEB 2020), I am planning to leave ASAP because I am flying 10-15 hours a month and no weekends off with min pay and will continue like this for another 8-12 months probably longer since we are losing more and more lines every month. Since I took the bonus I am now an indentured servant to the company for 24 months.
1.Does anyone know how this repayment process works?
2. If I was hired December 15th 2017 can I quit in December 16th 2018, Or do I have to complete a full 12 calendar months as in January 1st 2019 would be my last day?
3. Does anyone know how long it takes for them to ask for the money, Iíve heard some people claim they never got contacted?

Your obligation drops by half on day 366, then decreases in even amount over then next 12 months. Envoy has outsourced bonus recovery to a law firm specializing in such things. They will probably allow you to make payments, but no guarantees.


GoVandals
09-02-2018, 06:05 AM
Roughly 30 days after departure youíll receive an IOU from receivables. You can make payments via PayPal or check.

[email protected] can forward you the PayPal link.

LeadFoot
09-02-2018, 08:34 AM
I am currently an FO assigned the God forsaken CRJ 700. I was one of the last to be hired on the thing in the past several months. The main reason I picked envoy was the dallas base which wouldíve made my commute very easy. Now I am base locked (ORD only A/C) and with envoys policy I am seat locked as an FO indefinitely. PSA continues to push back the date they will take more of the CRJs ( now FEB 2020), I am planning to leave ASAP because I am flying 10-15 hours a month and no weekends off with min pay and will continue like this for another 8-12 months probably longer since we are losing more and more lines every month. Since I took the bonus I am now an indentured servant to the company for 24 months.
1.Does anyone know how this repayment process works?
2. If I was hired December 15th 2017 can I quit in December 16th 2018, Or do I have to complete a full 12 calendar months as in January 1st 2019 would be my last day?
3. Does anyone know how long it takes for them to ask for the money, Iíve heard some people claim they never got contacted?

Why leave though? Seniority is everything. Why start all over again? Youíll flow to American in a few years anyways and your clock to there has already started. With all the movement, your seniority will go up. Why give that up?

Pedro4President
09-02-2018, 08:45 AM
I am currently an FO assigned the God forsaken CRJ 700. I was one of the last to be hired on the thing in the past several months. The main reason I picked envoy was the dallas base which wouldíve made my commute very easy. Now I am base locked (ORD only A/C) and with envoys policy I am seat locked as an FO indefinitely. PSA continues to push back the date they will take more of the CRJs ( now FEB 2020), I am planning to leave ASAP because I am flying 10-15 hours a month and no weekends off with min pay and will continue like this for another 8-12 months probably longer since we are losing more and more lines every month. Since I took the bonus I am now an indentured servant to the company for 24 months.
1.Does anyone know how this repayment process works?
2. If I was hired December 15th 2017 can I quit in December 16th 2018, Or do I have to complete a full 12 calendar months as in January 1st 2019 would be my last day?
3. Does anyone know how long it takes for them to ask for the money, Iíve heard some people claim they never got contacted?

Envoy: It was the best of times and it was the worst of times. Sorry bud you just drew the short straw. Before you leave make sure you have a class date or other options.

SoFloFlyer
09-02-2018, 08:47 AM
Why leave though? Seniority is everything. Why start all over again? Youíll flow to American in a few years anyways and your clock to there has already started. With all the movement, your seniority will go up. Why give that up?

I guess itís because thereís little movement on the CRJ lol what he described is pretty atrocious

LeadFoot
09-02-2018, 08:50 AM
I guess itís because thereís little movement on the CRJ lol what he described is pretty atrocious

lol ok but there are other ways of looking at this. I wouldnít quit just because of that. He is leaving money on the table and the option of going to American in just a few years. Iím just saying, itís worth it in the long run. Heck, heíll be flying 737ís or a320í in 6 years... NOT BAD lol

NeedsMoreCowbel
09-02-2018, 10:17 AM
Appreciate the feedback everyone. I am set to flow in 2026... thatís 7.5 years from now and Iíll be 30. I have a bachelors degree and do charity work regularly. I feel I can get there a lot earlier than 30. Yes I know Iíll still be young and Iíve got this industry by the nads as far as that goes. However, Iím two leg commuting, spending roughly 9-10 hours every time I go up or come home. Iím looking at spending another 2.5 years in ORD until I upgrade. So total upgrade time of 3.5 years at a company that says they upgrade in 18 months. Which they do, just not on the CRJ. I spend roughly 6.5 days at home a month and feel I am cutting Time off of my life expectancy doing this commute. At the end of the day Iím looking for the slightest amount of quality of life and some decent pay. Didnít know it was so hard to find in this industry... maybe I picked the wrong career. I love flying as much as the next guy but if itís gonna cost me the next 3 plus years of happiness then itís not worth it. Life is too short..

LeadFoot
09-02-2018, 10:29 AM
Appreciate the feedback everyone. I am set to flow in 2026... thatís 7.5 years from now and Iíll be 30. I have a bachelors degree and do charity work regularly. I feel I can get there a lot earlier than 30. Yes I know Iíll still be young and Iíve got this industry by the nads as far as that goes. However, Iím two leg commuting, spending roughly 9-10 hours every time I go up or come home. Iím looking at spending another 2.5 years in ORD until I upgrade. So total upgrade time of 3.5 years at a company that says they upgrade in 18 months. Which they do, just not on the CRJ. I spend roughly 6.5 days at home a month and feel I am cutting Time off of my life expectancy doing this commute. At the end of the day Iím looking for the slightest amount of quality of life and some decent pay. Didnít know it was so hard to find in this industry... maybe I picked the wrong career. I love flying as much as the next guy but if itís gonna cost me the next 3 plus years of happiness then itís not worth it. Life is too short..

Fair points, but with 9000+ pilots estimated to retire from American in 12 years (correct me if Iím wrong with this), you might flow sooner than 7 years.

BigZ
09-02-2018, 10:48 AM
You should look at the seniority lists. Thereís a lot of movement coming on the CRJ soon.

Commuting to CRJ FO reserve is a special kind of hell - average flying 20 hrs/mo, half of that if you are senior enough to not get called and too junior to get what you proffer for. 08/17 hires held lines for three months or so, now back on reserve. 12/17 hire will more likely than not be on reserve for another year and a half or more. Unless something changes very drastically.

bigtime209
09-02-2018, 10:59 AM
Fair points, but with 9000+ pilots estimated to retire from American in 12 years (correct me if Iím wrong with this), you might flow sooner than 7 years.

There are many other viable paths to a good career than just waiting around being miserable at a particular regional just waiting years to flow. If the guy was WAY closer to flowing, then I might say stick around and wait it out. But if he's miserable with no end in sight, then he might as well go somewhere that makes him happier and take his fate into his own hands. Many other places great places to go that don't entail waiting around to flow.

BoilerUP
09-02-2018, 11:03 AM
Appreciate the feedback everyone. I am set to flow in 2026... thatís 7.5 years from now and Iíll be 30. I have a bachelors degree and do charity work regularly. I feel I can get there a lot earlier than 30. Yes I know Iíll still be young and Iíve got this industry by the nads as far as that goes. However, Iím two leg commuting, spending roughly 9-10 hours every time I go up or come home. Iím looking at spending another 2.5 years in ORD until I upgrade. So total upgrade time of 3.5 years at a company that says they upgrade in 18 months. Which they do, just not on the CRJ. I spend roughly 6.5 days at home a month and feel I am cutting Time off of my life expectancy doing this commute. At the end of the day Iím looking for the slightest amount of quality of life and some decent pay. Didnít know it was so hard to find in this industry... maybe I picked the wrong career. I love flying as much as the next guy but if itís gonna cost me the next 3 plus years of happiness then itís not worth it. Life is too short..

Life is too short to be miserable, and if going somewhere else will make you happier then you owe it to yourself to pursue that.

However....

You are what, 23? I of all people hate to be that guy who pulls the "when I was your age I was flying ILSs uphill both ways inverted in the snow for $19 sitting reserve in Kew Gardens and I LOVED it!" card, but com'on man!

If you didn't know the "slightest amount of quality of life and decent pay" was so hard to find in the regional industry was hard to find, you didn't pay enough attention.

Again, life is too short to be miserable...but I would submit you need to step back and adjust your expectations just a bit.

LeadFoot
09-02-2018, 11:31 AM
There are many other viable paths to a good career than just waiting around being miserable at a particular regional just waiting years to flow. If the guy was WAY closer to flowing, then I might say stick around and wait it out. But if he's miserable with no end in sight, then he might as well go somewhere that makes him happier and take his fate into his own hands. Many other places great places to go that don't entail waiting around to flow.

Very true. Best of luck

greendotplus10
09-02-2018, 11:49 AM
Ouch, I hate to hear stuff like this. Envoy is great for some, but certainly not all receive the same treatment. I decided against Envoy because of the ORD and LGA risk. It would have been even more risky as I would have been one of the youngest in the class, and I wasn't coming in through a pipeline program.

(Disclaimer: the flow, and the majors in general, are not high priority items for me). Keep in mind that once you flow, you'll be a junior pilot again, so you'll be on reserve in a potentially far away land, and that commute that you dread now will likely remain. Yes, you'll be making more, but will the toll on your lifestyle be worth it? When you upgrade, do it all over again. Decisions, decisions.

If it were me, I would definitely be leaving, ditching that commute, living in base, and staying there until I can upgrade in that same base in a few years or less.

YLpilot
09-02-2018, 12:05 PM
Just a question. Maybe it is too personal but at 23 what is stopping you from moving for a couple years until you upgrade to a line in whatever base you chose?

highfarfast
09-02-2018, 12:20 PM
Just a question. Maybe it is too personal but at 23 what is stopping you from moving for a couple years until you upgrade to a line in whatever base you chose?

This crossed my mind too. Reserve isn't that bad at Envoy if you live in base. When I was 23, I was free enough I could have just upped and moved if I wanted too. But I understand not everyone's situation is the same.

moon
09-02-2018, 01:27 PM
Fair points, but with 9000+ pilots estimated to retire from American in 12 years (correct me if Iím wrong with this), you might flow sooner than 7 years.

Just because American needs more pilots doesn't mean Envoy, PDT, or PSA will flow more. It just means American will hire more off the street.

LeadFoot
09-02-2018, 01:38 PM
Just because American needs more pilots doesn't mean Envoy, PDT, or PSA will flow more. It just means American will hire more off the street.

I hope so, Iím not at any one of the wholly owned. I just keep hearing from pilots who go to job fairs how American will just keep hiring from ENY, PDT, PSA and from military. Maybe 10% off the street. The flow seems to work for now.

crj700
09-02-2018, 02:05 PM
Fair points, but with 9000+ pilots estimated to retire from American in 12 years (correct me if Iím wrong with this), you might flow sooner than 7 years.

Or go through the front door.

SoFloFlyer
09-02-2018, 08:20 PM
I would just move to base. By the time you do a lateral move to another regional, you lost valuable seniority time at Envoy. I know that everyoneís situation is different, but I hope you figure it out, man! Good luck!

Bruno82
09-02-2018, 08:29 PM
Iíd stick around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pangolin
09-02-2018, 10:45 PM
I am currently an FO assigned the God forsaken CRJ 700. I was one of the last to be hired on the thing in the past several months. The main reason I picked envoy was the dallas base which wouldíve made my commute very easy. Now I am base locked (ORD only A/C) and with envoys policy I am seat locked as an FO indefinitely. PSA continues to push back the date they will take more of the CRJs ( now FEB 2020), I am planning to leave ASAP because I am flying 10-15 hours a month and no weekends off with min pay and will continue like this for another 8-12 months probably longer since we are losing more and more lines every month. Since I took the bonus I am now an indentured servant to the company for 24 months.
1.Does anyone know how this repayment process works?
2. If I was hired December 15th 2017 can I quit in December 16th 2018, Or do I have to complete a full 12 calendar months as in January 1st 2019 would be my last day?
3. Does anyone know how long it takes for them to ask for the money, Iíve heard some people claim they never got contacted?

Come to Mesa. Dfw base. Crj 900. No flow though. Youíll fly I can guarantee that.

Pedro4President
09-03-2018, 02:28 AM
Come to Mesa. Dfw base. Crj 900. No flow though. Youíll fly I can guarantee that.

I'd two leg commute before going to mesa.

cr700
09-03-2018, 07:13 AM
Just because American needs more pilots doesn't mean Envoy, PDT, or PSA will flow more. It just means American will hire more off the street.

Wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. The flow is contractual and Envoy even has had a recent increase in the total flows per month.

highfarfast
09-03-2018, 07:26 AM
Wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. The flow is contractual and Envoy even has had a recent increase in the total flows per month.

I'm not sure what you're saying is "wrong". He didn't say flow would stop and there's no contractual requirement to flow more than they are.

As to Envoy's "recent increase", that was as settlement to a grievance filed due to the company restricting flow because it doesn't want to flow more than it has to.

It's pretty reasonable to assume that if American increases hiring, said increase will come from OTS.


And one thing that's important to note while you're touting Envoy's recent increase in flow, once the protected pilots flow, Envoy will flow less, MUCH less, per month than what it is now.

LeadFoot
09-03-2018, 09:12 AM
I'm not sure what you're saying is "wrong". He didn't say flow would stop and there's no contractual requirement to flow more than they are.

As to Envoy's "recent increase", that was as settlement to a grievance filed due to the company restricting flow because it doesn't want to flow more than it has to.

It's pretty reasonable to assume that if American increases hiring, said increase will come from OTS.


And one thing that's important to note while you're touting Envoy's recent increase in flow, once the protected pilots flow, Envoy will flow less, MUCH less, per month than what it is now.

How much less do you mean? 25/month? Iím sure they could still flow more if American requests that, unless thereís a cap on that as well.

cr700
09-03-2018, 09:38 AM
How much less do you mean? 25/month? Iím sure they could still flow more if American requests that, unless thereís a cap on that as well.

Envoy absolutely could flow more if AA requests it. Hint. Strong possibility with the amount of retirements AA has over the next 6 years. There is a reason why the line is out the door to get into Envoy. Smart guys are waiting to get in here.

highfarfast
09-03-2018, 09:48 AM
How much less do you mean? 25/month? Iím sure they could still flow more if American requests that, unless thereís a cap on that as well.

The next group is the lesser of 35% of class and 15 per month is the next group if I remember correctly. So, expect 15 for a while after the protected pilots. There's another group or two after that where the numbers are different as well but none as high as the 29 now. These lower numbers are factored into the projected flow put out by the union though so it's not earth shattering.

As for the rest, Envoy has never sent more than contractually required. So, I guess they could, but I wouldn't be hanging my hat on it.

LeadFoot
09-03-2018, 10:20 AM
The next group is the lesser of 35% of class and 15 per month is the next group if I remember correctly. So, expect 15 for a while after the protected pilots. There's another group or two after that where the numbers are different as well but none as high as the 29 now. These lower numbers are factored into the projected flow put out by the union though so it's not earth shattering.

As for the rest, Envoy has never sent more than contractually required. So, I guess they could, but I wouldn't be hanging my hat on it.

Yeah those numbers are low indeed, but American is making it clear the flow will continue for all three wholly owned because of the massive retirements.

highfarfast
09-03-2018, 10:34 AM
Yeah those numbers are low indeed, but American is making it clear the flow will continue for all three wholly owned because of the massive retirements.

Yes, the flow will continue. But at a lower rate.

moon
09-03-2018, 10:52 AM
Envoy absolutely could flow more if AA requests it. Hint. Strong possibility with the amount of retirements AA has over the next 6 years. There is a reason why the line is out the door to get into Envoy. Smart guys are waiting to get in here.

We were told American did request more flows last year and Envoy said your request has been denied due to staffing.

SoFloFlyer
09-03-2018, 11:41 AM
Maybe AA isnít sweating hiring more and more OTS because they might be banking on the flow? Just a thought

moon
09-03-2018, 12:25 PM
Maybe AA isnít sweating hiring more and more OTS because they might be banking on the flow? Just a thought

I think like everything is done in the airlines they are waiting till it becomes a crisis before they react and really open the hiring flood gates.

TransWorld
09-03-2018, 02:15 PM
Remember that 29 per month flow was an agreed upon increase. The 824 group of pilots was 25, then it dropped for the Protected Pilots. Now it is 29 for them.

I caught a lot of grief during the 824 when I said the Protected Pilots would be at the same or more. Turns out, my crystal ball was correct.

My crystal ball says the next group will not flow at 15 (or if they do, not for long.). It will be a revised and agreed upon higher number. The competitive environment for hiring from the regionals will drive the market to faster flows, not slower flows. Otherwise, flow becomes meaningless and no longer a selling point for new hires coming to Envoy. I donít think AA want flow to become meaningless.

cr700
09-03-2018, 02:45 PM
Remember that 29 per month flow was an agreed upon increase. The 824 group of pilots was 25, then it dropped for the Protected Pilots. Now it is 29 for them.

I caught a lot of grief during the 824 when I said the Protected Pilots would be at the same or more. Turns out, my crystal ball was correct.

My crystal ball says the next group will not flow at 15 (or if they do, not for long.). It will be a revised and agreed upon higher number. The competitive environment for hiring from the regionals will drive the market to faster flows, not slower flows. Otherwise, flow becomes meaningless and no longer a selling point for new hires coming to Envoy. I donít think AA want flow to become meaningless.

👆This guy gets it.

SoFloFlyer
09-03-2018, 03:14 PM
Remember that 29 per month flow was an agreed upon increase. The 824 group of pilots was 25, then it dropped for the Protected Pilots. Now it is 29 for them.

I caught a lot of grief during the 824 when I said the Protected Pilots would be at the same or more. Turns out, my crystal ball was correct.

My crystal ball says the next group will not flow at 15 (or if they do, not for long.). It will be a revised and agreed upon higher number. The competitive environment for hiring from the regionals will drive the market to faster flows, not slower flows. Otherwise, flow becomes meaningless and no longer a selling point for new hires coming to Envoy. I donít think AA want flow to become meaningless.

I appreciate this type of reply because itís not based on a jaded biased point of view.

If this really does happen, Iíd be willing to sacrifice pay on the front end and go to Envoy instead of Republic or Endeavor. Guaranteed mainline is better than $45-$50 an hour. No disrespect to either of those carriers. Theyíre both fantastic carriers who are respected in the industry. Iím just coming from a opportunity cost point of view.

highfarfast
09-03-2018, 03:28 PM
I didn't realize referencing current and real agreements was considered jaded. I don't even think I've been here long enough to be jaded.

Just a reminder, the increase from 25 to 29 was a settlement from a grievance. Not, 'hay, we need flow to matter so here's this'.

And I would welcome with open arms anything that increased the later groups from 15 since I'm not a protected pilot. But I'm not going to make any plans based on that.

CaptJackSparrow
09-03-2018, 03:57 PM
Remember that 29 per month flow was an agreed upon increase. The 824 group of pilots was 25, then it dropped for the Protected Pilots. Now it is 29 for them.

I caught a lot of grief during the 824 when I said the Protected Pilots would be at the same or more. Turns out, my crystal ball was correct.

My crystal ball says the next group will not flow at 15 (or if they do, not for long.). It will be a revised and agreed upon higher number. The competitive environment for hiring from the regionals will drive the market to faster flows, not slower flows. Otherwise, flow becomes meaningless and no longer a selling point for new hires coming to Envoy. I donít think AA want flow to become meaningless.

Pretty sure the 824 guys was 30 per month. But I understand what youíre saying. However letís all keep in mind the company WILL absolutely want some sort of concession in return for a higher flow. Unless they knowingly violate the contract again on something (think the current PSI dispute) and turn it into a ďdealĒ. Itís all smoke and mirrors really.

Pedro4President
09-03-2018, 07:15 PM
Remember that 29 per month flow was an agreed upon increase. The 824 group of pilots was 25, then it dropped for the Protected Pilots. Now it is 29 for them.

I caught a lot of grief during the 824 when I said the Protected Pilots would be at the same or more. Turns out, my crystal ball was correct.

My crystal ball says the next group will not flow at 15 (or if they do, not for long.). It will be a revised and agreed upon higher number. The competitive environment for hiring from the regionals will drive the market to faster flows, not slower flows. Otherwise, flow becomes meaningless and no longer a selling point for new hires coming to Envoy. I donít think AA want flow to become meaningless.

Well I get what you are saying but the facts are 824 flowed 30 and PP flowed 29. I didn't see the 29 happening at all. I don't see the next group getting a bump IF their numbers are flowing sub 6 years. The group after that has a chance to flow more but I don't see us getting anything without the other two getting something. PSAs flow is crap so why isn't their fixed?

UncreativeUser
09-03-2018, 08:07 PM
I didn't realize referencing current and real agreements was considered jaded. I don't even think I've been here long enough to be jaded.



Just a reminder, the increase from 25 to 29 was a settlement from a grievance. Not, 'hay, we need flow to matter so here's this'.



And I would welcome with open arms anything that increased the later groups from 15 since I'm not a protected pilot. But I'm not going to make any plans based on that.



I donít believe they are going to cut the flow to 15 pilots a month, they are gonna need to turn the faucet up to fill those spots but your point is a good one coming from the fact that this was a result of grievance. With that being said however, nobody really knows but the majority of people believe that AA will turn up the amount of people who need to be flowed due to demand. Previous years, not so much


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SoFloFlyer
09-03-2018, 08:55 PM
I didn't realize referencing current and real agreements was considered jaded. I don't even think I've been here long enough to be jaded.

Just a reminder, the increase from 25 to 29 was a settlement from a grievance. Not, 'hay, we need flow to matter so here's this'.

And I would welcome with open arms anything that increased the later groups from 15 since I'm not a protected pilot. But I'm not going to make any plans based on that.

Not you specifically lol just a lot of other people on this forum are. Granted they have reason to be.

bigtime209
09-04-2018, 06:08 AM
I donít believe they are going to cut the flow to 15 pilots a month, they are gonna need to turn the faucet up to fill those spots but your point is a good one coming from the fact that this was a result of grievance. With that being said however, nobody really knows but the majority of people believe that AA will turn up the amount of people who need to be flowed due to demand. Previous years, not so much


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You're in for a rude awakening. If you believe that AA will have problems hiring without more flow, you're smoking something you shouldn't be.

TransWorld
09-04-2018, 06:08 AM
Well I get what you are saying but the facts are 824 flowed 30 and PP flowed 29. I didn't see the 29 happening at all. I don't see the next group getting a bump IF their numbers are flowing sub 6 years. The group after that has a chance to flow more but I don't see us getting anything without the other two getting something. PSAs flow is crap so why isn't their fixed?

Quick calculation. Next group after the Protected Pilots are contractually set at 15 pilots per month.

2500 pilots / (15 flow per month x 11 months per year) = 15 years for flow, assuming no attrition.

In a few years hiring from the regionals will be 4,000 per year (conservative number). That is 20,000 pilots all regionals combined / 4,000 pilots per year hired by the majors = 5 years average at regionals to get hired by the majors.

How effective a recruiting tool is 15 years for flow (assuming no attrition) when the average for all regionals is 5 years?

Something will have to change for flow to be even slightly meaningful.

CaptJackSparrow
09-04-2018, 06:12 AM
but the majority of people believe that AA will turn up the amount of people who need to be flowed due to demand. Previous years, not so much


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Lol. A lot of dreamers around here and it tends to be the new guys on a 9 year flow plan. Guys forget that this is still a business. They put a dollar value on the flow. Why in the world would the company just up the flow without anything in return? Simply because AA is hiring more guys? They have over 17,000 applications on file last I checked. They would have no problem taking in more guys off the street. AA doesnít need flow throughs to survive.

havick206
09-04-2018, 06:15 AM
Quick calculation. Next group after the Protected Pilots are contractually set at 15 pilots per month.

2500 pilots / (15 flow per month x 11 months per year) = 15 years for flow, assuming no attrition.

In a few years hiring from the regionals will be 4,000 per year (conservative number). That is 20,000 pilots all regionals combined / 4,000 pilots per year hired by the majors = 5 years average at regionals to get hired by the majors.

How effective a recruiting tool is 15 years for flow (assuming no attrition) when the average for all regionals is 5 years?

Something will have to change for flow to be even slightly meaningful.

Itís not 15/month for everyone.

highfarfast
09-04-2018, 06:19 AM
Quick calculation. Next group after the Protected Pilots are contractually set at 15 pilots per month.

2500 pilots / (15 flow per month x 11 months per year) = 15 years for flow, assuming no attrition.

In a few years hiring from the regionals will be 4,000 per year (conservative number). That is 20,000 pilots all regionals combined / 4,000 pilots per year hired by the majors = 5 years average at regionals to get hired by the majors.

How effective a recruiting tool is 15 years for flow (assuming no attrition) when the average for all regionals is 5 years?

Something will have to change for flow to be even slightly meaningful.

I'd argue that flow is already meaningless for a new hire... and yet they are filling classes based on flow. Not every pilot is doing the math you are. Envoy is not going to increase flow unless it becomes necessary.

TransWorld
09-04-2018, 06:28 AM
They have over 17,000 applications on file last I checked.

A few years ago it was 10,000 QUALIFIED applications. Then, after hiring kicked up (remember most of the 10,000 have applications in at the other majors, it is one big pool.), it was reported by HR to be 7,000.

Then I heard 13,000. Then I heard 5,000. Then I heard 17,000. Then I heard 3,000. Then, 25,000.

Put some reality in it. There are 20,000 pilots with the regionals. So, about 10,000 are captains. The often quoted number is 10% of the pilots, or 2,000 are lifers. That means 8,000 captains likely have applications out. While many first officers do as well, many are not yet qualified (especially hours).

So, what was reported by AA HR of 7,000 is a believable number. A number such as a big increase to 17,000 strains at my believability.

TransWorld
09-04-2018, 06:32 AM
Itís not 15/month for everyone.

I understand the next group after the Protected Pilots is contractually 15/month. You mean that contractual number is not for everyone in that group? Or are you talking about the subsequent group?

havick206
09-04-2018, 06:50 AM
I understand the next group after the Protected Pilots is contractually 15/month. You mean that contractual number is not for everyone in that group? Or are you talking about the subsequent group?

Subsequent groups.

You make it sound like itís 15/month going forward into eternity after the protected pilots finish. That is not correct.

UncreativeUser
09-04-2018, 07:47 AM
You're in for a rude awakening. If you believe that AA will have problems hiring without more flow, you're smoking something you shouldn't be.



True, never said that they will have problems hiring off the street but big companies like AA tend to like having control over their fate, the whole flow concept gives them just that.

Me personally, I donít need the flow with the 4 year degree but yet still choose to come here primarily because of attrition rates, so even if there is a 15 per month flow it still guarantees movement, thatís why I think Envoy still stocks every class.

Itís kind of annoying though cause when guys like myself are continuing to go to envoy there is no incentive to raise pay, but we canít help ourselves but to go through with it anyways


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TransWorld
09-04-2018, 09:00 AM
Subsequent groups.

You make it sound like itís 15/month going forward into eternity after the protected pilots finish. That is not correct.

Please reread my post, ďNext group after the Protected Pilots are contractually set at 15 pilots per month.Ē

The next group is. I did not say going into eternity.

havick206
09-04-2018, 09:02 AM
2500 pilots / (15 flow per month x 11 months per year) = 15 years for flow, assuming no attrition

Yes you did.

402FreightDog
09-04-2018, 10:35 AM
True, never said that they will have problems hiring off the street but big companies like AA tend to like having control over their fate, the whole flow concept gives them just that.

Me personally, I donít need the flow with the 4 year degree but yet still choose to come here primarily because of attrition rates, so even if there is a 15 per month flow it still guarantees movement, thatís why I think Envoy still stocks every class.

Itís kind of annoying though cause when guys like myself are continuing to go to envoy there is no incentive to raise pay, but we canít help ourselves but to go through with it anyways


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Yes, you can. Quite easy. Youíre not here yet. Go somewhere else.

UncreativeUser
09-04-2018, 10:37 AM
Yes, you can. Quite easy. Youíre not here yet. Go somewhere else.



Too late, already in class [emoji16]


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402FreightDog
09-04-2018, 10:56 AM
Too late, already in class [emoji16]


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You are your own worst enemy. You knew better, you are hoping others wonít come here, but came here anyway.

Well, after commuting to reserve for a while, donít say we didnít tell you so.

UncreativeUser
09-04-2018, 11:51 AM
You are your own worst enemy. You knew better, you are hoping others wonít come here, but came here anyway.



Well, after commuting to reserve for a while, donít say we didnít tell you so.



Iím living in base, I took everyoneís advice on that one


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TransWorld
09-04-2018, 06:32 PM
Yes you did.

You are correct. I am completely half way wrong.

What I said was for the next group after the Protected Pilots:

2500 pilots / (15 flow per month x 11 months per year) = 15 years for flow, assuming no attrition

What I omitted was the final group, after DOS (12/23/2014 and later):

2500 pilots / (21 flow per month x 11 months per year) = 11 years for flow, assuming no attrition.

Repeating what I previously said:

How effective a recruiting tool is 15/11 years for flow (assuming no attrition) when the average for all regionals is 5 years?

Something will have to change for flow to be even slightly meaningful.

Whiskey4
09-04-2018, 06:33 PM
Iím living in base, I took everyoneís advice on that one

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Very smart. Our family chose to relocate to the base for quality of life. It was a tough decision at the time, but we are so happy that we made the call. Not every one is in a position to do so, but it really makes the job work out nicely with the family, expenses, income potential, etc.

moon
09-04-2018, 06:49 PM
Too late, already in class [emoji16]


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You say you are already In class and a week ago you said your class date was relatively soon? Kinda narrows it down....

So what did you get one of the 9 DFL or 4 OFL?

highfarfast
09-04-2018, 07:47 PM
How effective a recruiting tool is 15/11 years for flow (assuming no attrition) when the average for all regionals is 5 years?

Something will have to change for flow to be even slightly meaningful.

Union projected flow for new hires today is nearly 9 years. Again, I'd say flow is already meaningless. Yet there is a backlog for class dates. New recruits aren't doing the math and are taking recruiter's word on flow.

Something needs to change for flow to be meaningful, I get that. But I don't see that flow needs to be meaningful for it to have its desired purpose from Envoy's Management's perspective. That's where the disconnect is.

SoFloFlyer
09-04-2018, 09:06 PM
Union projected flow for new hires today is nearly 9 years. Again, I'd say flow is already meaningless. Yet there is a backlog for class dates. New recruits aren't doing the math and are taking recruiter's word on flow.

Something needs to change for flow to be meaningful, I get that. But I don't see that flow needs to be meaningful for it to have its desired purpose from Envoy's Management's perspective. That's where the disconnect is.

I think partly become of movement of the seniority list. Flow guarantees movement (unless they stop hiring, but that wonít happens anytime soon). So when you combine attrition and flow, you can be a senior FO after 12 or so months on property. Thatís hard to come by at most regionals.

Also, if AA is soemoneís goal, itís an incentive considering less than 10% is OTS NH at AA. Thatís my only guess at the moment

SiouxperWild
09-06-2018, 03:51 AM
I think partly become of movement of the seniority list. Flow guarantees movement (unless they stop hiring, but that wonít happens anytime soon). So when you combine attrition and flow, you can be a senior FO after 12 or so months on property. Thatís hard to come by at most regionals.



Also, if AA is soemoneís goal, itís an incentive considering less than 10% is OTS NH at AA. Thatís my only guess at the moment



Agreed


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flysooner9
09-06-2018, 05:20 AM
People also know that with the retirement numbers coming up attrition to other airlines is going to sky rocket this reducing the flow to AA

SilentLurker
09-07-2018, 09:43 AM
You say you are already In class and a week ago you said your class date was relatively soon? Kinda narrows it down....



So what did you get one of the 9 DFL or 4 OFL?



God holy angels why does it matter which class he is in. Comes off as your intentions are to either intimidate, make nervous, out, or silence him? People pls out your self and class date and such before trying to figure out the identity of another.

It does not matter who he is. Great if he indeed is in one of the classes, or the class before or class after. Donít see why it matters. Relatively soon is what he choose to use to remain anonymous. Thatís ok I believe. My opinions only, you are rightfully also entitled to yours as well :).

Welcome aboard UncreativeUser overall glad you came to here if this place was where you wanted to be.

SilentLurker
09-07-2018, 09:55 AM
People also know that with the retirement numbers coming up attrition to other airlines is going to sky rocket this reducing the flow to AA



Bump! Facts

If OAL took 20 or more off our seniority list every yr, that adds up in 3-10yrs for flow reduction to bottom guys, but only if taken off the top consistently.

NoValueAviator
09-08-2018, 02:27 PM
The flow seems much less valuable if your projected date is anytime after 2026. By then, AA will have hired like 9000 young pilots to keep pace with retirements, and who will keep you in the bottom half of their seniority list for your entire career. Not an appealing prospect.

Knobcrk1
12-27-2018, 06:51 PM
Does anyone have an email or phone number of the department in charge of regarding repayment of the pilot bonus?

Jamesthunder
12-28-2018, 06:57 PM
Does anyone have an email or phone number of the department in charge of regarding repayment of the pilot bonus?

Don't worry, their people will call your people.