Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : ABX Interview - Is it worth it?


Palomarracer
09-04-2018, 07:35 PM
Currently have an interview scheduled for Friday, I applied not knowing anything and then have spent the last 10 hours reading about the dumpster fire that ABX appears to be. My question is...

Should I go and take the job, go for the interview experience, or just pass? Im currently an FO at a regional and would like to go to Atlas, Kalitta, Omni, etc... Currently just over 2,000 hours. I would apply to Atlas but cannot because of this "agreement" my current airline has and I don't meet the minimums for others. Should I go there to get a 767 type and some heavy experience or just pass? Thanks for any info.


woog315
09-04-2018, 07:52 PM
No, itís not. Next question

Jurassic Jet
09-04-2018, 08:04 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/l2Sqc3POpzkj5r8SQ/giphy.gif


goinaround
09-04-2018, 08:24 PM
Currently have an interview scheduled for Friday, I applied not knowing anything and then have spent the last 10 hours reading about the dumpster fire that ABX appears to be. My question is...

Should I go and take the job, go for the interview experience, or just pass? Im currently an FO at a regional and would like to go to Atlas, Kalitta, Omni, etc... Currently just over 2,000 hours. I would apply to Atlas but cannot because of this "agreement" my current airline has and I don't meet the minimums for others. Should I go there to get a 767 type and some heavy experience or just pass? Thanks for any info.

You are not hirable anywhere else without PIC time. ABX will hire you. But you will be stuck. Do Not Do It.

Asiabound
09-04-2018, 09:19 PM
Look at Western Global, WGN. We aren't Kalitta, UPS, or FDX, but morale here isn't as bad, we aren't spooling down either, and the upgrade isn't as long. Your total time is low, but we've hired in that range before. In fact we have captain in the 3,000 hour range. As for getting "the call" be persistent, usual networking, I'm not sure if we attend any job fairs yet. We used to do open interviews. Good Luck.

point432
09-05-2018, 03:54 AM
I canít recommend it at all coming to this place. But in your position you wont build time coming here. And certainly wont be building any TPIC for a long time. (Circle one: days, months, years, decades, centuries)

With 2000tt you need a regional with a flow or like the other dude said...Western Global. The way our network and schedules are built, our crew/aircraft utilization is low. Another thing...lines were cut again this coming month. We donít build time here. This place is ran looking 5 mins ahead. Only a few people truly know what is the future in this company and theyíll never grow because they donít paint any growth or goals.

Ask yourself, do you want to be a part of something that doesnít look like its going anywhere? Jesus take the wheel. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No Land 3
09-05-2018, 05:53 AM
767 type and acmi experience would be a big plus to coming to K4, but if you aren't going to build time, nor get TPIC, what is the point? You need to get your TT in the 5000 range to open up more doors. WGA would be ideal, or perhaps a 36th NW company if you want out of the regionals, and happen to live in Miami? Those guys get hired by K4 too. Dare I suggest SkyLease?

Industry Strnd
09-05-2018, 07:30 AM
Abx doesn't even have KCM. The President doesnt want pilots to have it.

Do you want to work for someone who intentionally inflicts policy to hurt employees?

Industry Strnd
09-05-2018, 07:39 AM
Have you seen how many people have quit in the past month? Not just pilots. The president has created a very toxic work environment nobody wants to work for a management that treats employees like dirt and threatens to impose his will on their career.

ABX air owned by ATSG could have a pilot strike in the 4th Quarter because of lack of staffing. Amnz and dhl wont be happy. The contract will be very difficult for them to administer since they are letting many schedulers leave for more money.

Otterbox
09-05-2018, 07:46 AM
Abx doesn't even have KCM.

^This alone is a good enough reason to pass on working there.

To the OP go be a DEC at one of the AA Wholly Owned regionals until you get a better job.

Also, steer clear of Atlas until they get a decent contract.

Almost There
09-05-2018, 08:20 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/l2Sqc3POpzkj5r8SQ/giphy.gif

THE Perfect Answer!

JetRage
09-05-2018, 08:26 AM
Abx doesn't even have KCM. The President doesnt want pilots to have it.

Do you want to work for someone who intentionally inflicts policy to hurt employees?

That ticks me off disproportionately.

Hang10
09-05-2018, 09:00 AM
I would not get out of the Electric chair to work there! Was worse than the blogs say! With the spoolmdown! You want make it threw ground school before you are unemployed! Donít risk it for this **** hole!

nitefr8dog
09-05-2018, 09:12 AM
The place is toxic..

Palomarracer
09-05-2018, 10:01 AM
Alright haha well thanks for the input everyone I will definitely pass on this then.

Irishblackbird
09-08-2018, 10:44 AM
Look at Western Global, WGN. We aren't Kalitta, UPS, or FDX, but morale here isn't as bad, we aren't spooling down either, and the upgrade isn't as long. Your total time is low, but we've hired in that range before. In fact we have captain in the 3,000 hour range. As for getting "the call" be persistent, usual networking, I'm not sure if we attend any job fairs yet. We used to do open interviews. Good Luck.

I am curious about cargo, with no real experience in this segment. What is Western Global's schedule like? Is my understanding correct in that you are out on the road for 17 days straight? Is any of the flying scheduled, or do you sit somewhere with a plane waiting for the next haul? I have 8000 hours, multiple types, and 3000 hours jet pic, 1200 121 sic, but no 121 pic. Would this be competitive? Sorry if these question's have been asked before. Thanks!

nitefr8dog
09-08-2018, 11:38 AM
I am curious about cargo, with no real experience in this segment. What is Western Global's schedule like? Is my understanding correct in that you are out on the road for 17 days straight? Is any of the flying scheduled, or do you sit somewhere with a plane waiting for the next haul? I have 8000 hours, multiple types, and 3000 hours jet pic, 1200 121 sic, but no 121 pic. Would this be competitive? Sorry if these question's have been asked before. Thanks!
Might check the WG pages...

Industry Strnd
09-12-2018, 04:03 AM
Abx has lowered there hiring requirements and then they have washed guys out during OE. Others have quit just after OE. Imagine a bust on your resume. If you're looking long term at a real airline consider the consequences of taking a job at ABX!

Industry Strnd
09-15-2018, 08:36 AM
Awhile back I had a friend get hired at ABX he told me how great it would be. Now he is gone and I'm still stuck waiting to get out. We just lost more flying. Pilots getting pushed back on reserve. 12 hour airport ready reserve too.

Still 20 + years to upgrade and a shrinking airline. If your buddy tells you this is a great place, you might want to question if he is a true friend!

Abx ATSG
Facts
No growth
No contract
No upgrades for anyone with less than 20 years
Reserve lInes for 2 years
No KCM
Management who delays a contract
Amazon said no more planes till a contract
Dhl taking planes away
And why apply here?

Elevation
09-15-2018, 06:55 PM
^This alone is a good enough reason to pass on working there.

To the OP go be a DEC at one of the AA Wholly Owned regionals until you get a better job.

Also, steer clear of Atlas until they get a decent contract.

I agree with this. At Atlas morale is low, and we have plenty of pilots with clean histories, degrees, recommendations who aren’t moving on. There’s no promise you’ll get out quickly after you come here or any other ACMI. Having flow and 100k in first year pay (DEC at Envoy including sign-on bonus) is a nice career path. You’d have few career worries and could focus on the technical demands of your profession. Having a place go from a long-term prospect to a stepping stone and then to a black hole in which hope goes to die is a terrible thing to watch. Flow is reliable for the next decade or so at AAWO’s

We will get a contract in another few years. Of course, so will everyone else.

The only good reason to interview would be to hone your interview skills for your target job.

Wayst
10-26-2018, 08:14 PM
What is the current status of the ABX contract? How long is it over due for new one? How are the negations going or is it in mediation?

Industry Strnd
10-27-2018, 02:22 AM
What is the current status of the ABX contract? How long is it over due for new one? How are the negations going or is it in mediation?

It's been in mediation for several years. There is no end in sight. Management is try to take away work rules and offering nothing significant. ATSG just bought Omni to wipsaw yet another carrier. K4 is the place to go new cba and no wipsaw.

Wayst
10-27-2018, 03:22 AM
How long can mediation go on for before the mediator has to make a decision under the Railroad Labor Act? Does this mean the mediator will approve a strike if there is no agreement?

ROBsINtheHOOD
10-27-2018, 05:13 AM
The Railroad Labor Act is a farce and should be replaced yesterday. Pilots should contact their congress member and demand action. It's almost 2019 and for pilot labor / employment mediation and collective bargaining to be held hostage by rules that are out of date and irrelevant by way of the RLA is beyond a joke.

Larry in TN
10-27-2018, 05:22 AM
How long can mediation go on for before the mediator has to make a decision under the Railroad Labor Act?
There is no time limit.

nitefr8dog
10-27-2018, 06:12 AM
What is the current status of the ABX contract? How long is it over due for new one? How are the negations going or is it in mediation?
No time limit and Federal Judges are perfectly content to let it drone on and on in favor of businesses. The RLA is a toothless dog. In most if not all disputes found in favor of the pilots....the company is simply told to stop doing that! Of course they go right back and do it again. There needs to be punitive damages or it will never change.

Almost There
10-28-2018, 06:07 AM
The Railroad Labor Act is a farce and should be replaced yesterday. Pilots should contact their congress member and demand action. It's almost 2019 and for pilot labor / employment mediation and collective bargaining to be held hostage by rules that are out of date and irrelevant by way of the RLA is beyond a joke.

RLA. Passed in 1926. Amended twice in 1934 and 1936.
1926?? Out of date? Yes.
It would be very difficult to get Congress to do any action. Favors business(transportation) too much.
I do agree though, the rules need to be amended.
1926??

Larry in TN
10-28-2018, 07:41 AM
The RLA is a toothless dog.
While I understand what you're saying, I think you've misidentified the purpose of the RLA. The RLA isn't in place to ensure that transportation workers get a fair contract in a reasonable amount of time.

The purpose of the RLA is to prevent disruptions in the nation's transportation systems. At that purpose, it is far from toothless. The RLA is quite effective at preventing strikes and lockouts. The protracted negotiation process is exactly what the RLA was intended to produce.

sky jet
10-28-2018, 08:00 AM
While I understand what you're saying, I think you've misidentified the purpose of the RLA. The RLA isn't in place to ensure that transportation workers get a fair contract in a reasonable amount of time.

The purpose of the RLA is to prevent disruptions in the nation's transportation systems. At that purpose, it is far from toothless. The RLA is quite effective at preventing strikes and lockouts. The protracted negotiation process is exactly what the RLA was intended to produce.

Your statement is true. The sad part is that airlines should have never been part of the act. If you had a business in 1925 that was on the Norfolk Southern rail line, using it as your primary shipping method, and the Norfolk Southern employees went on strike shutting down that line your business was also basically shut down. Trains run on tracks owned by the company and no other company can run trains on those rails. If the struck company decides to let another company run trains on their lines during a strike the striking employees can easily disrupt that rail line and stop the struck work from going.


Airlines are totally different. They don't own the sky. If Delta goes on strike tomorrow Atlanta doesn't lose all air service. Will Atlanta or the nations commerce be negatively impacted? Certainly. But if the strike goes on long enough other airlines will add service and in the long term there will be no change in the economy. Why should airline employees be treated any differently than say truckers. I would submit that a nationwide trucker strike would be more damaging to the national economy than an airline strike. How about health care. Many local hospitals are now owned by Nationwide companies like Humana or Adventist. Why don't they have a similar act?

The RLA is essentially indentured servitude for airline employees. (especially pilots, mechanics and flight attendants) Because of our seniority system it is virtually impossible for senior employees to consider changing employers. We are approaching the 100th anniversary of this law. It's time for it to go.

Larry in TN
10-28-2018, 08:46 AM
The RLA is essentially indentured servitude for airline employees.
I don't think the hyperbole is helpful.

Because of our seniority system it is virtually impossible for senior employees to consider changing employers.
I used to think the same thing and that thinking kept me at ABX for over twelve years. I'm now on my sixth airline and have never done better. I should have left ABX long before the 2009 furlough that finally kicked me out.

It's time for it to go.
Then contact your representatives. They are the only ones who can change it.

sky jet
10-28-2018, 10:03 AM
"Then contact your representatives. They are the only ones who can change it."


I have contacted my elected representatives both in the house and senate regularly for years in my former states and my current one. I don't think they care about airline employees and our problems. I watched as they pumped billions into two automotive manufactures while my and several other airlines asked for help and were told to pound sand. I too am on my 6th airline. I hope it's the last one.

tomgoodman
10-28-2018, 10:11 AM
Then contact your representatives. They are the only ones who can change it.

Aye, thereís the rub. If any bill to change the RLA is introduced, labor-unfriendly amendments, like ďbaseball arbitrationĒ might be added. :(

Larry in TN
10-28-2018, 02:16 PM
I don't think they care about airline employees and our problems.
I agree with that.

nitefr8dog
10-28-2018, 02:23 PM
While I understand what you're saying, I think you've misidentified the purpose of the RLA. The RLA isn't in place to ensure that transportation workers get a fair contract in a reasonable amount of time.

The purpose of the RLA is to prevent disruptions in the nation's transportation systems. At that purpose, it is far from toothless. The RLA is quite effective at preventing strikes and lockouts. The protracted negotiation process is exactly what the RLA was intended to produce.
RLA is worthless.....only lip service. When the company after being told by a mediator to show up prepared ...comes to the table with nothing everytime and laughs! The mediator says ok maybe next time you could provide your proposal...worthless. no power...toothless dog.

Larry in TN
10-28-2018, 04:21 PM
worthless. no power...toothless dog.
That's the RLA doing exactly what it was designed to do. Delay any possible service disruption. The RLA wasn't written to benefit labor.

atpcliff
10-28-2018, 06:09 PM
Your statement is true. The sad part is that airlines should have never been part of the act. If you had a business in 1925 that was on the Norfolk Southern rail line, using it as your primary shipping method, and the Norfolk Southern employees went on strike shutting down that line your business was also basically shut down. Trains run on tracks owned by the company and no other company can run trains on those rails. If the struck company decides to let another company run trains on their lines during a strike the striking employees can easily disrupt that rail line and stop the struck work from going.


Airlines are totally different. They don't own the sky. If Delta goes on strike tomorrow Atlanta doesn't lose all air service. Will Atlanta or the nations commerce be negatively impacted? Certainly. But if the strike goes on long enough other airlines will add service and in the long term there will be no change in the economy. Why should airline employees be treated any differently than say truckers. I would submit that a nationwide trucker strike would be more damaging to the national economy than an airline strike. How about health care. Many local hospitals are now owned by Nationwide companies like Humana or Adventist. Why don't they have a similar act?

The RLA is essentially indentured servitude for airline employees. (especially pilots, mechanics and flight attendants) Because of our seniority system it is virtually impossible for senior employees to consider changing employers. We are approaching the 100th anniversary of this law. It's time for it to go.

FANTASTIC synopsis!
Namaste...

ACMItrash
11-21-2018, 04:49 AM
There are rumors flying around that potential ABX new hires are being told there will be a pilot contract after Christmas. Thats news to everyone because for the last two years the potential new hires were told "it will be soon". Appears they are just telling pilots that to get them to commit. The fact is neither the union or the Management knows when a contract will happen because neither side knows what the other will agree to. I guess of you're top management and you think you know and you try to convince your boss you can deliver then egos will try to dictate the outcome. But it's an uneducated guess.

Bottom line the union put out a communication just last week stating it could be a very long time and the future is uncertain at ABX.

Otterbox
11-21-2018, 05:56 AM
There are rumors flying around that potential ABX new hires are being told there will be a pilot contract after Christmas. Thats news to everyone because for the last two years the potential new hires were told "it will be soon". Appears they are just telling pilots that to get them to commit. The fact is neither the union or the Management knows when a contract will happen because neither side knows what the other will agree to. I guess of you're top management and you think you know and you try to convince your boss you can deliver then egos will try to dictate the outcome. But it's an uneducated guess.

Bottom line the union put out a communication just last week stating it could be a very long time and the future is uncertain at ABX.

Technically theyíre not wrong. 1,3,5 years etc. from now is still after Christmas...

Industry Strnd
11-21-2018, 08:37 AM
Technically theyíre not wrong. 1,3,5 years etc. from now is still after Christmas...

https://www.aircargonews.net/news/airline/single-view/news/us-cargo-pilots-reveal-dissatisfaction-in-latest-union-survey.html

https://www.aircargoweek.com/cargo-pilots-concerned-about-how-airlines-are-run/

C7fr8dog
11-21-2018, 09:46 AM
https://www.aircargonews.net/news/airline/single-view/news/us-cargo-pilots-reveal-dissatisfaction-in-latest-union-survey.html

https://www.aircargoweek.com/cargo-pilots-concerned-about-how-airlines-are-run/

I've heard a number of pilots that were hired less than a year ago are on their way out the door. Along with 20+ year guys. As we wait and wait for years for a contract we are the frustrated ones. Soon no pilot will come to ABX and then ABX AIR ATSG can be the frustrated ones while we sit back like they've done the past 4 years. If management is tell interviewees that we will have a CBA soon remember this. When I was hired they told me we'd have over 1,000 pilots. Nearly 30 years later and it still hasn't happened. They'll say whatever you want them to say. The only thing that counts is a signature on a new CBA that meets industry standards for our profession.

Hang10
11-21-2018, 11:40 AM
Am 20+ years and am on my way out! Heading back to the sand box to fly! There want be a new contract anytime in the future! The company execs New another 51% pay raise!

ACMItrash
01-20-2019, 06:43 PM
Am 20+ years and am on my way out! Heading back to the sand box to fly! There want be a new contract anytime in the future! The company execs New another 51% pay raise!

Anything new? Still the same old abx....

johnny150
01-27-2019, 04:43 AM
Same old story at ABX, unable to retain pilots... they are quitting in droves and more are about to quit....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

MarkThyme
01-27-2019, 06:31 PM
Same old story at ABX, unable to retain pilots... they are quitting in droves and more are about to quit....


...wherein the term "droves" means maybe two per month, on average, if it's even that many.

abxflyr
01-27-2019, 08:21 PM
...wherein the term "droves" means maybe two per month, on average, if it's even that many.

Actually if you base it on the simple number of 2/mth over a calendar year. It's about 10% of the active pilot list. Add in a few scattered retirements, a medical leave here and there.....you're probably closer to a 15% change. Not good, not the worst, but with a competitive industry whereby others offer so much more, you begin to feel the pain.

JetRage
01-27-2019, 08:34 PM
You're forgetting the relative figure. On the scale of 1-10 moral here is in the high zero's as were being threatened and downsized simultaneously. Please, dont show up until we have a contract and some evidence of a future.

motorclutch
01-28-2019, 05:02 AM
Soapy destroyed any future for current ABX pilots. He and his sub-par management team have ruined any prospect for a long term career.
JOE HETE let him do it. Mission complete.

gumpscheck
01-28-2019, 05:17 AM
...wherein the term "droves" means maybe two per month, on average, if it's even that many.

What are you trying to do? Put lipstick on this pig? Itís awful in ABX.

BTW, you will see 11 quit soon.

MarkThyme
01-28-2019, 10:11 AM
What are you trying to do? Put lipstick on this pig? Itís awful in ABX.

BTW, you will see 11 quit soon.

If you say so. But I won't hold my breath. I remember being told last year that seven were leaving within a month or two for corporate jobs. It never happened. There weren't that many departures in that time period, corporate or otherwise.

gumpscheck
01-28-2019, 11:26 AM
If you say so. But I won't hold my breath. I remember being told last year that seven were leaving within a month or two for corporate jobs. It never happened. There weren't that many departures in that time period, corporate or otherwise.

You are right. I guess we will have to wait and see.

ACMItrash
01-29-2019, 01:46 AM
You are right. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Abx interview lol do let yourself feel like you have to stoop that low! Regional captain pay is better than abx fo pay!

Chime in management or someone for some unknown reason trying to sugar coat the job!

Do other airlines have to resort to message boards to try and keep or attract pilots?

SpaceManX
01-31-2019, 12:52 PM
A buddy of mine interviewed two weeks ago and he said he was told that if they invite you to a sim evaluation, you pretty much have the job. My question is that there are companies who still require a sim ride?

Reactivity
01-31-2019, 02:51 PM
A buddy of mine interviewed two weeks ago and he said he was told that if they invite you to a sim evaluation, you pretty much have the job. My question is that there are companies who still require a sim ride?

It's true that they won't invite you to the sim eval if they didn't like you in the interview. But given recent experience, I'm not sure it's as useful or predictive as they thought it was. Alaska Airlines may or may not still do the sim eval. A couple of years ago, they were still requiring it for anyone who interviewed with less than 6,000 total time.

zerozero
02-01-2019, 07:32 AM
A buddy of mine interviewed two weeks ago and he said he was told that if they invite you to a sim evaluation, you pretty much have the job. My question is that there are companies who still require a sim ride?

UPS still requires a sim ride.

SpaceManX
02-01-2019, 10:46 AM
UPS still requires a sim ride.
I heard that

Colt45
02-01-2019, 02:09 PM
A buddy of mine interviewed two weeks ago and he said he was told that if they invite you to a sim evaluation, you pretty much have the job. My question is that there are companies who still require a sim ride?

Yes there are and itís probably a good thing. I hope K4 starts using their sim again for interviews. They always used to in the past but theyíre so busy hiring and training they canít give up the time.

nitefr8dog
02-01-2019, 07:15 PM
Yes there are and itís probably a good thing. I hope K4 starts using their sim again for interviews. They always used to in the past but theyíre so busy hiring and training they canít give up the time.
Are we still taking about ABX? Yes dim ride on interviews.

Atrasaty
02-03-2019, 08:16 AM
Are we still taking about ABX? Yes dim ride on interviews.

Just like Atlas.... you must be pretty "dim" to be there interviewing in the first place.

nitefr8dog
02-03-2019, 10:39 AM
Just like Atlas.... you must be pretty "dim" to be there interviewing in the first place.
Exactly!!!!

zerozero
02-03-2019, 10:51 AM
Both Atlas and ABX are great opportunities for interview practice.

Rarely are people hired at true career destinations without having blown a few interviews before they get their dream job.

Interviews are tricky and you definitely should be out there practicing on less worthy jobs. Like Atlas and ABX.

I hope everyone aces their FDX, UPS or Legacy interview.

tiredofjrm
02-03-2019, 11:57 AM
Practice, pratice, practice.

thesandbox
02-03-2019, 02:23 PM
FedEx and UPS make you fog a mirror?

nitefr8dog
02-03-2019, 02:40 PM
Both Atlas and ABX are great opportunities for interview practice.

Rarely are people hired at true career destinations without having blown a few interviews before they get their dream job.

Interviews are tricky and you definitely should be out there practicing on less worthy jobs. Like Atlas and ABX.

I hope everyone aces their FDX, UPS or Legacy interview.
Problem at ABX if you are ambulatory when you show up and not on an oxygen bottle you WILL be hired! It's not much of a yardstick...

C7fr8dog
02-05-2019, 02:31 PM
I did hear that part of the old ABX training personnel are back and in fact going to head the 767 training program. I wouldn't count on extra sims and OE any more.

ACMItrash
02-05-2019, 08:40 PM
I did hear that part of the old ABX training personnel are back and in fact going to head the 767 training program. I wouldn't count on extra sims and OE any more.

Yeah pilot shortage gets worse at abx because no longer will it be a 50% type bust could creep up to 85%-100% new hire bust rate if he is in charge!

EndOfTimes
02-06-2019, 12:55 AM
Again the hyperbole. I checked with the head of Flight Standards. In 2018 we had a grand total of 35 people start training, only 5 failed. That is a lot, but not near the catastrophic rates Mr. Trash claims. All were allowed to resign to avoid a training failure on their record. I agree the rumors of the returning new head of standards may well increase that rate. Time will tell.

C7fr8dog
02-15-2019, 06:07 AM
Sounds like Soaper/Hete continue to stall out negotiations. Latest is that they couldnít even agree on a NDA when attempting to review costing data. More wasted time as the rest of the Cargo industry is expanding and growing. All Soaper cares about us his bonus not the airline heís the president of. To him all our jobs mean nothing. Just like when he was at Comair and Southern. To him itís all bout flipping an airline as long as he gets his payout.

Grundt
02-15-2019, 05:26 PM
Sounds like Soaper/Hete continue to stall out negotiations. Latest is that they couldnít even agree on a NDA when attempting to review costing data. More wasted time as the rest of the Cargo industry is expanding and growing. All Soaper cares about us his bonus not the airline heís the president of. To him all our jobs mean nothing. Just like when he was at Comair and Southern. To him itís all bout flipping an airline as long as he gets his payout.

I've been trying to figure out what Soaper is up to these days since he doesn't come to CRM classes anymore. Just ran into a mechanic who said Soaper came to some class of his and spewed his BS about how the pilots are the problem. Divide and conquer. It answered my question though...going to the pilot classes isn't working, so he's been trying to work it with the other labor groups.

ACMItrash
02-20-2019, 10:34 PM
I've been trying to figure out what Soaper is up to these days since he doesn't come to CRM classes anymore. Just ran into a mechanic who said Soaper came to some class of his and spewed his BS about how the pilots are the problem. Divide and conquer. It answered my question though...going to the pilot classes isn't working, so he's been trying to work it with the other labor groups.


Soapy lol ...just wow. I wonder if Amazon sees through his lies?

point432
02-21-2019, 08:41 AM
Soapy lol ...just wow. I wonder if Amazon sees through his lies?



Every department hates us. Hate is a strong word but he is telling everyone its our fault, so they blame us. Mx, scheduling, dispatch, and ndoís. I think even HR hates us. Hope not just Amazon can see through the lies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dynap09
02-21-2019, 09:59 AM
Hope not just Amazon can see through the lies.


Amazon has got to remember their packages getting stranded with ABX with the surprise strike. Part of their brand is the reliability of getting your stuff in certain timeframes. Has amazon added any ABX flying since the strike?

I know ABX periodically threatens to disrupt black friday or peak but don't think anything happened this last time around. Doesn't seem like a path to growth though if they can't fly existing work.

point432
02-21-2019, 10:10 AM
Amazon has got to remember their packages getting stranded with ABX with the surprise strike. Part of their brand is the reliability of getting your stuff in certain timeframes. Has amazon added any ABX flying since the strike?



I know ABX periodically threatens to disrupt black friday or peak but don't think anything happened this last time around. Doesn't seem like a path to growth though if they can't fly existing work.



They really havenít added anything. Thank you for reminding everyone is an ABX interview worth it.

When you mean ABX ďcanít fly existing work,Ē what do you mean? Like the ABX is doing soft strikes or currently and intentionally disrupting service?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

gumpscheck
02-21-2019, 10:34 AM
Amazon has got to remember their packages getting stranded with ABX with the surprise strike. Part of their brand is the reliability of getting your stuff in certain timeframes. Has amazon added any ABX flying since the strike?

I know ABX periodically threatens to disrupt black friday or peak but don't think anything happened this last time around. Doesn't seem like a path to growth though if they can't fly existing work.

People, please quit believing the rhetorical BS coming from JHís executive suite in ILN. You asked if Amazon has added any ABX flying after the strike. The contract with Amazon is with ATSG. However ATSG decides to assign the AMZ flights is an internal decision. Amazon could care less who flies them as long as they are flown. JH threatened the ABX EXCO chairman to take planes away if we didnít take a pay cut. This was during the summer of 2016, before the strike. The EXCO counteroffer a compromise plan with the only stipulation of dividing the fleet evenly between the two airlines, ABX & ATI. JH refused it. In October of that same year, 2016, the whole EXCO offered to drop the ďD6 CaseĒ in return for just one more tail number to be assigned to ABX. Again ATSG refused the offer. This lack of flights and/or airplanes at ABX has nothing to do with AMZ. It is an internal decision from ATSG.

The ABX Negotiating Committee has asked Sudsy for the AMZ letter claiming that no more flights be assigned to ABX. Mr. Clean (Sudsy) canít produce it. That means it is all a big lie. BIGGLIE!!! Like another ďbusiness magnateĒ likes to say.

nitefr8dog
02-21-2019, 02:38 PM
Soapy lol ...just wow. I wonder if Amazon sees through his lies?
They love it....cheap labor at 2009 contract prices. He is a hero to them. The freight moves at record on time performance numbers with delays going to maintenance.

ACMItrash
03-03-2019, 12:30 AM
Nothing to see here. More labor unrest.

ACMItrash
03-12-2019, 06:16 AM
Nothing to see here. More labor unrest.

Still no contract in sight despite management saying it's just around the corner.

No projected aircraft delivery.

point432
03-12-2019, 06:30 AM
Still no contract in sight despite management saying it's just around the corner.



No projected aircraft delivery.



A contract and airplanes will be just two pieces of the puzzle. This company could use a little more than just that. At this rate every new hire is going to spend an eternity on reserve! And if you are going to do endless reserve, you might as well look at other companies.

Honestly, if iím so far down the reserve list, why should I even be coming to work? Why donít we have a long call reserve system? No, You can gamble or sit 3 days in CVG with nothing to do just have them throw a 24/7 after those 3 days. If you have no crashpad, thats 3 days camping at the DHL hub living off pizza from the cafeteria.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shabby
03-12-2019, 11:47 AM
You wonít be able to afford pizza! Might be able to live on noodles though!

A contract and airplanes will be just two pieces of the puzzle. This company could use a little more than just that. At this rate every new hire is going to spend an eternity on reserve! And if you are going to do endless reserve, you might as well look at other companies.

Honestly, if iím so far down the reserve list, why should I even be coming to work? Why donít we have a long call reserve system? No, You can gamble or sit 3 days in CVG with nothing to do just have them throw a 24/7 after those 3 days. If you have no crashpad, thats 3 days camping at the DHL hub living off pizza from the cafeteria.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

point432
03-12-2019, 12:05 PM
You wonít be able to afford pizza! Might be able to live on noodles though!



Fact!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nitefr8dog
03-14-2019, 10:51 AM
Fact!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Still hiring...

point432
03-14-2019, 01:09 PM
Still hiring...



Who is? ABX?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ACMItrash
03-14-2019, 04:58 PM
Still hiring...

Some still show up even though there is a 50% chance they fail training or quit within the first 2 years. Alot of guys are even quitting to go to other ACMI carriers!

nitefr8dog
03-15-2019, 04:31 AM
Who is? ABX?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes....classes thru Aug.

EndOfTimes
03-15-2019, 07:27 AM
The problem for ABX is folks are leaving faster than they can replace them. We even had a 25+ year captain leave for UPS recently. The FO list shrinks every month. A sinking ship.

Jurassic Jet
03-15-2019, 08:23 AM
The problem for ABX is folks are leaving faster than they can replace them.


And itís just getting started good. The floodgates are about to break loose. Premium pay reminiscent of 2016 is right around the corner.

EndOfTimes
03-15-2019, 10:23 AM
This might be true. New crew letter from VP of ops announcing Captain classes starting in May and new hire classes through September due to increased Amazon flying. Also acknowledged coming retirements and ďforecast attrition.Ē D6 days are probably coming. Soap scum might want to consider getting serious about CBA negotiations.

ACMItrash
03-17-2019, 12:36 AM
This might be true. New crew letter from VP of ops announcing Captain classes starting in May and new hire classes through September due to increased Amazon flying. Also acknowledged coming retirements and ďforecast attrition.Ē D6 days are probably coming. Soap scum might want to consider getting serious about CBA negotiations.

Soap scum serious about negotiations. Lol The guy and his team have been at abx for over 2 years and agreed on 1 definition. You think he will ever be serious?

ACMItrash
03-17-2019, 12:50 AM
This year is setting up just like 2016. For those that were not around then he is a short is history lesson.

ABX needed to hire for growth. They didn't start in time and when pilots did finally start to come they realized this place is a dumpster fire and quit in droves.
Pilots went on strike because vacations were big denied. Everyone was forced to work on days off.

Fast forward to today pilots still quitting and going back to regionals, going to omni and Kalitta, and Any other place as soon as the phone rings. They can't keep up with attrition and there is no way they can hire for any growth because when they do finally get a class together some get smart and turn down the class date.

I'm going to make a bold prediction 4 the 4th qu 2019 everybody will be getting jr manned yet again because theu will be about 20 pilots short. Fun fun... required to work on your days off!

Hang10
03-17-2019, 03:15 AM
And work on days off and not get paid! You have to fight for your pay! And still donít get it!

ACMItrash
03-18-2019, 01:17 AM
[QUOTE=point432;2782537]Who is? ABX?


Thats funny. The typical question when someone asks who you work for and then after you say (any acmi...abx, ati, omni, atlas) they get this look on their face like......ohh you're not a real pilot.

point432
03-18-2019, 04:49 AM
[QUOTE=point432;2782537]Who is? ABX?





Thats funny. The typical question when someone asks who you work for and then after you say (any acmi...abx, ati, omni, atlas) they get this look on their face like......ohh you're not a real pilot.



Thats what our friends and family ask us all the time. Usually they assume ABX was some sort of toilet cleaner.

You want cool bag tags from the pilot shop at CVG? 500 pilot minimum just to get started. Otherwise 200 is just a waste of time to them. I was asked, ďwho is ABX?Ē


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nitefr8dog
03-18-2019, 05:43 AM
[QUOTE=ACMItrash;2784671]



Thats what our friends and family ask us all the time. Usually they assume ABX was some sort of toilet cleaner.

You want cool bag tags from the pilot shop at CVG? 500 pilot minimum just to get started. Otherwise 200 is just a waste of time to them. I was asked, ďwho is ABX?Ē


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Boy it's really too bad you did not figure out this earth shaking news before you decided to work in the ACMI world....you could have gone straight to United or Delta or American. I am sure its heart breaking.

maxjet
03-18-2019, 06:28 AM
[QUOTE=point432;2782537]Who is? ABX?


Thats funny. The typical question when someone asks who you work for and then after you say (any acmi...abx, ati, omni, atlas) they get this look on their face like......ohh you're not a real pilot.

I have never actually had this happen. Of course I donít introduce myself as a pilot so the subject doesnít always come up. Hmmmm maybe it is you.
😀

V1rotateV2
03-18-2019, 08:38 AM
.....
ABX needed to hire for growth. They didn't start in time and when pilots did finally start to come they realized this place is a dumpster fire and quit in droves.
Pilots went on strike because vacations were big denied. Everyone was forced to work on days off.


This strategy sure helped purge a seniority list cluttered with remnants of previous furloughs who hit the 7-year marker. Nicely played, JH!!

point432
03-18-2019, 09:24 AM
[QUOTE=ACMItrash;2784671]



I have never actually had this happen. Of course I donít introduce myself as a pilot so the subject doesnít always come up. Hmmmm maybe it is you.

[emoji3]



I mean, they already know iím a pilot. Its just when I changed jobs and explaining it then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

nitefr8dog
03-18-2019, 10:33 PM
[QUOTE=maxjet;2784796]



I mean, they already know iím a pilot. Its just when I changed jobs and explaining it then.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's like trying to explain how you get 5 weeks off in a row multiple times each year and still get paid.....why bother? I used to tell my father in law they fired me again. He eventually quit asking...

SilentLurker
03-24-2019, 05:46 AM
[QUOTE=point432;2784917]
I used to tell my father in law they fired me again. He eventually quit asking...


Hahah! Great response, Iím stealing it.

Working 121 FFD a little while now, my mother still asks ďyour home nearly half the month, sometimes more, and you still have a legitimate job?????Ē

SilentLurker
03-24-2019, 06:29 AM
Any comments or thoughts????? Buehler... Buehler...

Long interesting article, detailed, good comparisons? I find it very interesting, and much more light needed into 121 cargo carriers...

Meat and bones in the middle to end.

How accurate is the information being presented about amazon & also ABX?

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/amazon-air-pilots-earn-less-fedex-ups-2019-3-1028050092

johnny150
03-24-2019, 06:36 AM
Any comments or thoughts????? Buehler... Buehler...

Long interesting article, detailed, good comparisons? I find it very interesting, and much more light needed into 121 cargo carriers...

Meat and bones in the middle to end.

How accurate is the information being presented about amazon & also ABX?

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/amazon-air-pilots-earn-less-fedex-ups-2019-3-1028050092



That article hits the nail on the head!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

dogo
03-24-2019, 06:50 AM
Business Insider did their homework for this article. Additionally, they revealed safety issues with hiring low time inexperienced pilots. Unfortunately ABX is considered a distressed carrier.....stay away!

SilentLurker
03-24-2019, 06:53 AM
That article hits the nail on the head!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro



Thanks... Filler

SilentLurker
03-24-2019, 07:24 AM
Business Insider did their homework for this article. Additionally, they revealed safety issues with hiring low time inexperienced pilots. Unfortunately ABX is considered a distressed carrier.....stay away!

Ok thanks.

So Iím confused at times between ABX, Atlas and Southern. From what Iím reading ABX is hiring & filling classes with less experienced applicants in its pilot pool? This is because few pilots with experience are applying, and the ones that do are scared off once they do their research or learn more about the pay and working conditions???

What realistic outcome does this pilot group have? I mean if business as usual continues as it is now, what is the expectation/time-line for improvements?

Or do many of you feel only a Colgan (cargo version) accident/major incident will cause change to happen at ABX. If so, that is very sad to sit and wait for it.

I respect you guys fighting overall, i will find my way to picket in support when the time comes, when you guys decide on a action plan.

dogo
03-24-2019, 07:42 AM
Thanks from the legacy guys at ABX. We are a tight knit group who have held this place together since DHL screwed us in 2008. New management is sitting on top of a ticking time bomb.

ACMItrash
03-24-2019, 01:29 PM
What once seemed like a good idea...the amazon effect.....now maybe not so much

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-products-services-failed-discontinued-2019-3?utm_content=buffer0c220&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer-bi&fbclid=IwAR33reUTwCbsshF2a8puNiwdGopYdFj_x3duMCdwY RiWWslGkr8kSqiB7m4

ACMItrash
03-25-2019, 01:16 PM
Are you ready to sit the middle seat on some international deahead flights?

Run and apply today!!!

flyfranz
03-27-2019, 08:51 AM
I fell and broke my back at work.I had finally after 9 months won the workers comp claim. But ABX in typical fashion just appealed the workers comp decision. Itís costing me thousands of dollars in lawyer fees and expert testimony. Not to mention the stress.
This company does not like the pilot group. Do not come here! Even if we get a contract and more airplanes. This place will still be toxic.

atpcliff
03-27-2019, 01:28 PM
I fell and broke my back at work.I had finally after 9 months won the workers comp claim. But ABX in typical fashion just appealed the workers comp decision. Itís costing me thousands of dollars in lawyer fees and expert testimony. Not to mention the stress.
This company does not like the pilot group. Do not come here! Even if we get a contract and more airplanes. This place will still be toxic.

I hope u can get the legal fees back from ABX through the court process.

From a fellow ACMI/DHL/Amazon airline pilot,

God Bless, and Namaste...

EndOfTimes
03-27-2019, 02:30 PM
A new low for ABX. Good luck Franz. This company is despicable.

dogo
03-27-2019, 03:28 PM
Sounds like Judy B is up to her old tricks. Sue her personally.

wjcandee
04-01-2019, 07:48 AM
Didn't the ABX-DHL contract expire yesterday? They were assuming that it was going to get renewed, but I haven't heard or seen anything public yet.

LunkerHunter
04-03-2019, 03:40 PM
Didn't the ABX-DHL contract expire yesterday? They were assuming that it was going to get renewed, but I haven't heard or seen anything public yet.

your post might have gained a bit more traction if you had waited a day... :D

ACMItrash
04-09-2019, 04:52 PM
So month to month with DHL? Hoe many get furloughed when dhl pulls more or all flying as they have in the past?

ACMItrash
04-09-2019, 09:13 PM
So month to month with DHL? Hoe many get furloughed when dhl pulls more or all flying as they have in the past?

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-air-pilots-labor-issues-2019-2

Riverside
04-09-2019, 09:35 PM
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-air-pilots-labor-issues-2019-2

That was posted last month. And discussed in other threads. Do a search next time.

point432
04-30-2019, 06:42 AM
If its still worth it equals more uncertainty, then what is the future of ABX and ATSG? Wanna go for a ride?

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/764261/powerplant-oversight-program-manager

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/827741/sr-manager-air-network-control-center


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mukalel
04-30-2019, 08:34 AM
If its still worth it equals more uncertainty, then what is the future of ABX and ATSG? Wanna go for a ride?

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/764261/powerplant-oversight-program-manager

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/827741/sr-manager-air-network-control-center


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Both of these jobs are currently being done by them. Amazon does supervise the maintenance on all ATSG operated prime air planes that ATI has been flying around. Nothing new here. As far was the next position is a just a network planning job which is what they obviously do every month.. making schedules thats all. Nothing too special here..

point432
04-30-2019, 08:40 AM
Both of these jobs are currently being done by them. Amazon does supervise the maintenance on all ATSG operated prime air planes that ATI has been flying around. Nothing new here. As far was the next position is a just a network planning job which is what they obviously do every month.. making schedules thats all. Nothing too special here..



On the MRO job, they make it seem as if its very global of a position. What MRO work or supervising is Amazon doing in Brazil or Europe? Is Amazon directing mx to other carriers outside the US? It seems more specific than I imagined.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aerospeed
05-01-2019, 05:41 PM
Why would anyone want to work for a scab airline like ABX? Those illegal strike guys are the .....and everyone but them know it!

point432
05-01-2019, 05:43 PM
Why would anyone want to work for a scab airline like ABX? Those illegal strike guys are the ,,,,,,,and everyone but them know it!



Welcome to the party. Can I get you anything? Glad to have you on APC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

point432
05-09-2019, 04:40 AM
10 more planes to ATSG from Amazon. Who will fly them?

ATI guys are running classes full speed ahead and opening/closing a window every other week. ABX will be lucky to see anyone in class. Weíre barely going to be able to fly the airplanes we have soon...probably will have to start coming up with excuses to the customers just so we can make up for our shortcomings.

A good contract would probably be a good start. That way people interviewing donít have to feel like theyíre being lied to in the interview. For once in ABXís existence it would be nice to lead at something that matters...catering, commercial travel, technology...or lock something in that is going to ensure that ABX can always get people. We are swimming against the current. Please donít laugh at that technology part...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tiredofjrm
05-09-2019, 06:02 AM
Heard a rumor that they tried to have a new hire class of 2 this month. They ended cancelling it because only one showed up. Donít come here. No new planes coming. No new contract coming. 20+ years to upgrade.
Seriously, any other flying job is better than ABX.

dogo
05-09-2019, 06:58 AM
No rumor...fact. DS killed this company

point432
05-09-2019, 08:18 AM
No rumor...fact. DS killed this company



Also, we are still living in the Stone Age. Everything this company does is by force! Iím surprised Hete hasnít bought a printing press and returned all our iPads.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jurassic Jet
05-09-2019, 09:12 AM
Iím surprised Hete hasnít bought a printing press and returned all our iPads.

Donít give them any ideas. We are slowly dragging them kicking and screaming into the 20th century. (Yes I know itís the 21st.)

dogo
05-09-2019, 12:13 PM
Hete is not an airline/cargo guy. Heís an accountant ónot an operator. Soap is a used car salesmanó nothing more.

tiredofjrm
05-09-2019, 12:18 PM
I thought Soaper painted houses?

Iím seriously jealous. He goes from a house painter to president of an airline. An airline where he has to do absolutely nothing. The only requirement for the job, is to use the word ďnoĒ In negotiations.

Even I could do that.

llll
05-14-2019, 02:48 AM
https://www.atsginc.com/Press-Releases/2019/pr2019-04-30.html


5 new AC to ABX

Jurassic Jet
05-14-2019, 03:03 AM
https://www.atsginc.com/Press-Releases/2019/pr2019-04-30.html


5 new AC to ABX


Wrong. Extension to existing leases. No new deliveries in the works for ABX.

ACMItrash
05-14-2019, 02:07 PM
https://www.atsginc.com/Press-Releases/2019/pr2019-04-30.html


5 new AC to ABX

Atlas and ABX just ran a 50 foot sign right in front of Jeff Bezos that said ready to strike ! No aircraft anytime soon without a contract. They don't want to pay. Nothing to see here except more new hire washouts!

ATSG
AAWW

dogo
05-14-2019, 02:14 PM
Were the ATI pilots on hand to kiss his [email protected]@?

wjcandee
05-14-2019, 05:13 PM
Atlas and ABX just ran a 50 foot sign right in front of Jeff Bezos that said ready to strike ! No aircraft anytime soon without a contract. They don't want to pay. Nothing to see here except more new hire washouts!

ATSG
AAWW

Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.

And yet Atlas continues to take contracts from other airlines (like K4) and will have a slew of 737s for Amazon through Southern. They will have no problem staffing those aircraft because they don't care who is in the cockpit.

ABX is the only 1224 carrier that is taking it on the chin. They are putting themselves out of jobs to help the folks at Atlas.

I have said repeatedly that the accident in Houston could just as well have been a planeload of troops. AMC should be seriously thinking about standing Atlas down and redistributing their military flying to other carriers, including the major airline team members via an activation if necessary. If it's as bad as the Atlas pilots say -- and it appears that it is given what happened aboard the accident aircraft -- AMC has no business putting soldiers on those aircraft. I don't expect much from the FAA until there is a bunch of civilian blood spilled, which is unlikely, but AMC ought to be horrified. Maybe after the preliminary NTSB report, which I expect to be brutal.

But for now, Billy and his ilk are telling the shareholders that his strategy is working while he beats Connie and others (including ABX) on price and continues to grow his business.

zerozero
05-15-2019, 10:59 AM
Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.

And yet Atlas continues to take contracts from other airlines (like K4) and will have a slew of 737s for Amazon through Southern. They will have no problem staffing those aircraft because they don't care who is in the cockpit.

ABX is the only 1224 carrier that is taking it on the chin. They are putting themselves out of jobs to help the folks at Atlas.

I have said repeatedly that the accident in Houston could just as well have been a planeload of troops. AMC should be seriously thinking about standing Atlas down and redistributing their military flying to other carriers, including the major airline team members via an activation if necessary. If it's as bad as the Atlas pilots say -- and it appears that it is given what happened aboard the accident aircraft -- AMC has no business putting soldiers on those aircraft. I don't expect much from the FAA until there is a bunch of civilian blood spilled, which is unlikely, but AMC ought to be horrified. Maybe after the preliminary NTSB report, which I expect to be brutal.

But for now, Billy and his ilk are telling the shareholders that his strategy is working while he beats Connie and others (including ABX) on price and continues to grow his business.

Sad truth: The Prelim has already been issued by the NTSB. It simply didn't contain any useful information.

I'll let you read into that what you may.

JonnyKnoxville
05-15-2019, 05:30 PM
Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.

A meaningless gesture, yet if you google Amazon Air along with the CVG airport, half the press articles and news reports are about the pilots being underpaid and overworked, in part, causing the subcontractor airlines to be in a severely unsafe situation. Meaningless, yet you are talking about it too.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity." P.T. Barnum

I have read enough of your posts across multiple forums to observe your extreme anti-union viewpoint. It intrigues me that you are obviously an extreme aviation fan but so anti-pilot. After all, who do you think makes up the union that you speak of?

I find it interesting to read that you find the Atlas pilot group negotiating position to be extreme when we simply want the same pay and work rules as the rest of our colleagues in the industry already enjoy. If that position is too extreme and management elitist egos push this contentious situation on for another few years, as you suggest, you will see free market forces completely destroy this airline and it will be an absolute miracle if there aren't multiple aircraft crashes along the way. Hopefully the next one that crashes ends up in the swamp as well and not into an elementary school or a neighborhood.

In the aviation world, where airline management talent seems to be far and few between, it is always funny to observe how free market is preached and cheered on when it favors a management agenda but it is feverishly fought against when the free market goes against what management wants. Adam Smith wins every time and this situation will be no different.

Either the talentless management teams of AAWW and ATSG come to terms with reality or they end up running their companies into the ground. Maybe somebody needs to pick up the phone and call Bryan Bedford. I am sure he has a fresh life lesson he can share.

MarkThyme
05-16-2019, 08:17 PM
A meaningless gesture, yet if you google Amazon Air along with the CVG airport, half the press articles and news reports are about the pilots being underpaid and overworked, in part, causing the subcontractor airlines to be in a severely unsafe situation. Meaningless, yet you are talking about it too.

Don't confuse reporting with action. A lot of ink gets spilled over a lot of things. Very few read it, and only a small fraction care. None of it is likely to translate into anything meaningful to anyone.

Yes, we're talking about it. But that's about it. Nobody else is, because nobody cares outside of those directly involved.

I give the Alaska pilots a hard time because they're fond of their orange lanyards. The pilots are convinced that management hates the orange lanyards, as if that will spur them to action. Big deal. It's a meaningless gesture that ultimately changes nothing. Management, for their part, does seem annoyed by them, and I think they're idiots, too, because it's a meaningless gesture.

tiredofjrm
05-17-2019, 10:23 AM
The only thing any management group responds to is loss of revenue. The rest is just noise.

wjcandee
05-17-2019, 02:56 PM
I have read enough of your posts across multiple forums to observe your extreme anti-union viewpoint.

I say this respectfully: There's a difference between being opposed to self-destructive, pointless union activity that does nothing but entrench the spoiled leaders and pay big $$ to lawyers for years of delay and basically no results that truly benefit the rank and file, and being "anti-union".

I applaud what I think are smart, effective tactics, and criticize ones that are not. That we may disagree about the likely effectiveness and probable outcome doesn't make me an adversary.

You guys are locked in pointless, low probability of success litigation that the company loves because it puts off ever really getting to a contract. Again, it's not strategically-beneficial, it's a result of trying to show who has the bigger set, which isn't a clean route to a result for members.

The way to get Atlas to focus on the legitimate beef of low quality candidates and training is to do what I suggested. Good stuff will result, but of course leaders won't get obvious credit for it, so they would rather follow a different strategy.

JonnyKnoxville
05-17-2019, 04:06 PM
I say this respectfully: There's a difference between being opposed to self-destructive, pointless union activity that does nothing but entrench the spoiled leaders and pay big $$ to lawyers for years of delay and basically no results that truly benefit the rank and file, and being "anti-union".

I applaud what I think are smart, effective tactics, and criticize ones that are not. That we may disagree about the likely effectiveness and probable outcome doesn't make me an adversary.

You guys are locked in pointless, low probability of success litigation that the company loves because it puts off ever really getting to a contract. Again, it's not strategically-beneficial, it's a result of trying to show who has the bigger set, which isn't a clean route to a result for members.

The way to get Atlas to focus on the legitimate beef of low quality candidates and training is to do what I suggested. Good stuff will result, but of course leaders won't get obvious credit for it, so they would rather follow a different strategy.

The same as everyone else, the leaders want results, period. In a world where big money writes the laws, the overall system is designed to keep airline labor suppressed while forcing the aircraft to continue to move. Don't believe me? Look at the last airline pilot section 6 strike. It was the Spirit strike nine years ago. When airlines are able to drag their feet in negotiations for 6-10 years on contracts that can be negotiated in under one month, there is a problem with the system. In this specific case, people have now died and more will die all so a few at the top can become wealthy to a level beyond what any of us can even comprehend.

We will fight on low probability of success cases as well as high probability of success cases. We will leave no rock unturned. Choosing to just sit idle while our contract gets violated does nothing for us except slowly erode what little benefits we currently have. At Atlas Air, choosing to play nice with management only leads to being taken advantage of. We have years of history prove that point.

This is Eastern Airlines all over again and just like at Eastern, labor never sets the tone.

wjcandee
05-17-2019, 04:28 PM
The same as everyone else, the leaders want results, period. In a world where big money writes the laws, the overall system is designed to keep airline labor suppressed while forcing the aircraft to continue to move. Don't believe me? Look at the last airline pilot section 6 strike. It was the Spirit strike nine years ago. When airlines are able to drag their feet in negotiations for 6-10 years on contracts that can be negotiated in under one month, there is a problem with the system. In this specific case, people have now died and more will die all so a few at the top can become wealthy to a level beyond what any of us can even comprehend.

We will fight on low probability of success cases as well as high probability of success cases. We will leave no rock unturned. Choosing to just sit idle while our contract gets violated does nothing for us except slowly erode what little benefits we currently have. At Atlas Air, choosing to play nice with management only leads to being taken advantage of. We have years of history prove that point.

This is Eastern Airlines all over again and just like at Eastern, labor never sets the tone.

Well, we disagree about a lot of what you said. I don't see you or I to be a victim of The Man or The System. Rather than be a Social Justice Warrior decrying the system, I would rather work the system -- really any set of rules that applies to me -- in a way that puts the most money in my pocket. Start worrying about showing The Man that you're a man, too, and you will waste a lot of time on things that have nothing to do with compensation.

A scorched-earth policy sounds nice when politically grandstanding, but it costs the members a lot of money and actually delays an outcome, which means that people go a long time at one pay rate when they could be making more money at a pay/rules rate that is not optimal but higher. In my opinion, the more-quickly contracts get turned, across more airlines, the more $$ in members' pockets. Get the deal done, take more compensation, then set up for the next one, while your brethren do the same, thus helping to advance you. I think it plays into management's hands to constantly be at war, but it creates a context for leaders to hold their positions and try to unify troops -- and to shout down differing beliefs. It has been so since the time of Sun Tzu, and certainly Brave New World.

I think better to get the agreement done, spend the lawyer money on wording the contract correctly, and enforce the crystal clear contract provisions through the grievance process. Meanwhile, start working on the next contract.

You can feel free to disagree about strategy, of course. Mine is just an opinion. But I'll bet it's one that's shared among some of the quieter members of your pilot group.

JonnyKnoxville
05-17-2019, 07:02 PM
Well, we disagree about a lot of what you said. I don't see you or I to be a victim of The Man or The System. Rather than be a Social Justice Warrior decrying the system, I would rather work the system -- really any set of rules that applies to me -- in a way that puts the most money in my pocket. Start worrying about showing The Man that you're a man, too, and you will waste a lot of time on things that have nothing to do with compensation.

A scorched-earth policy sounds nice when politically grandstanding, but it costs the members a lot of money and actually delays an outcome, which means that people go a long time at one pay rate when they could be making more money at a pay/rules rate that is not optimal but higher. In my opinion, the more-quickly contracts get turned, across more airlines, the more $$ in members' pockets. Get the deal done, take more compensation, then set up for the next one, while your brethren do the same, thus helping to advance you. I think it plays into management's hands to constantly be at war, but it creates a context for leaders to hold their positions and try to unify troops -- and to shout down differing beliefs. It has been so since the time of Sun Tzu, and certainly Brave New World.

I think better to get the agreement done, spend the lawyer money on wording the contract correctly, and enforce the crystal clear contract provisions through the grievance process. Meanwhile, start working on the next contract.

You can feel free to disagree about strategy, of course. Mine is just an opinion. But I'll bet it's one that's shared among some of the quieter members of your pilot group.


As pilots, I do not view us as a victim at all. I view us as living in a world with a set of rules that are designed to suppress us. It is not bad, it is not good, it is what it is. This just means we have a greater hurdle to overcome. I mean honestly, how much skill does it take to say "no" at every negotiation session for years while reaping the benefits of cheap labor? The playing field isn't level and I won't play victim, I will work to change the playing field.

I see a common assumption you make about assuming unions constantly engage in political grandstanding as well. There is none. We simply aren't interested in it. I see no benefit in engaging in it and don't get the point of it. Your mileage may vary.

A smaller deal now is better than a bigger deal later....what you are describing is called a time value of money proposition. I understand it well. In order to have a time value of money comparison, one has to have an offer now versus a greater hypothetical offer later to compare it to. The common mistake is making the assumption that an offer is on the table. There is not, nor has there ever been an offer on the table. Until an offer is made, you are just describing a fantasy scenario.

Your data tracking on aircraft is impressive, you may want to stick to that and leave the labor relations to those better suited for it.

wjcandee
05-17-2019, 08:50 PM
Your data tracking on aircraft is impressive, you may want to stick to that and leave the labor relations to those better suited for it.

I think that's a compliment; I really don't care which side of the hand it came from. So...thanks!!

As to the rest, I feel like you are "making a common assumption" that anybody who disagrees with a certain party line or questions the strategy pursued by certain leaders must not know what they're talking about. That's fine. And expected. I'm not gonna roll out my CV to show what I'm "suited for" or not. Because this isn't about me; it's about the idea I put out there.

I'm only offering my opinion because I have watched you guys expend a lot of energy for zero results for a long time. I think there's an opportunity here to cure an actual safety issue and get you more of what you're looking for. That's all it is. If people think the idea has merit, great. If not, oh well.

flyfranz
05-17-2019, 11:47 PM
I got my first choice this month of flying lines. However, I was taken off due to training and my entire line was changed. Now instead of having no overnights in cvg, I have 4 nights in a hotel at my own cost. I bid lines with minimum layovers in cvg for a reason. To save money on hotels.
If youíre considering coming here, you should figure on added hotel costs.

JonnyKnoxville
05-18-2019, 04:09 AM
I think that's a compliment; I really don't care which side of the hand it came from. So...thanks!!

As to the rest, I feel like you are "making a common assumption" that anybody who disagrees with a certain party line or questions the strategy pursued by certain leaders must not know what they're talking about. That's fine. And expected. I'm not gonna roll out my CV to show what I'm "suited for" or not. Because this isn't about me; it's about the idea I put out there.

I'm only offering my opinion because I have watched you guys expend a lot of energy for zero results for a long time. I think there's an opportunity here to cure an actual safety issue and get you more of what you're looking for. That's all it is. If people think the idea has merit, great. If not, oh well.

If I were to go over to the other website and start posting about how all future 767 deliveries are going to be stopped at ATSG and replaced with SR-71s and Cessna Caravans, that is not me disagreeing with the party line (whatever the party line is anyway), it would be me talking about something I have no clue about and I would just be flat out wrong.

Look man, with all due respect, you have certain preconceived notions about the Atlas and ABX pilot group that you share with us from time to time and they are flat out wrong. Your perception is off. I am not sure where your anger, mistrust, frustration, or whatever it is comes from, but you are spreading misinformation and it makes you look bad. That is not some kind of party line, it is my opinion that I share with you and if I am sharing it, you can bet others are thinking it. Your views on this topic are no different than me talking on the other site about the ATI Sr-71s coming that I saw being converted to freighters in Pinal Airpark last week.

zerozero
05-18-2019, 08:15 AM
I'm only offering my opinion because I have watched you guys expend a lot of energy for zero results for a long time. I think there's an opportunity here to cure an actual safety issue and get you more of what you're looking for. That's all it is. If people think the idea has merit, great. If not, oh well.

I'd like to drill down on these two points.

First, the safety issue is a valid and real concern. The problem is, due to the ongoing investigation there are very few usable FACTS. Everyone outside of the investigation has opinions and hunches, but you cannot leverage opinions and hunches into immediate fixes or stand downs. Thus, it will be business as usual until the official report is completed (notwithstanding the increasing reports of failures coming from the Training Dept).

Secondly, "more of what we're looking for" is exactly what we're getting! We are challenging the company head on with respect to their stubborn insistence that we either amalgamate or we'll sue you to amalgamate.

The company continues to tell investors "this is a process". No, this is shuck and jive they SELL to the investors.

This pilot group has rights under the RLA to bargain fairly, but has been scammed out of those rights from the very day the holding company was established.

They only way to get "more of what we're looking for" is to directly challenge the amalgamation in the courts so it doesn't happen again.

That indeed is a "process". This is fighting fire with fire. So you may laugh at the message on a mobile billboard, but that's just for the media photo ops and soundbites on stations like, you know, CNBC, Business Insider, The Washington Post, ALL the SEA media stations...

Unfortunately for the pilots, customers and investors, the real fight will be in the courtroom.

wjcandee
05-18-2019, 09:41 AM
I'd like to drill down on these two points.

First, the safety issue is a valid and real concern. The problem is, due to the ongoing investigation there are very few usable FACTS. Everyone outside of the investigation has opinions and hunches, but you cannot leverage opinions and hunches into immediate fixes or stand downs.

See, I think you're missing an opportunity. AMC most certainly can investigate anything it wants at any time, as can Congress. AMC/Congress doesn't need a final NTSB report before it can investigate hiring standards, training standards, and operational errors. The investigation, and what it is finding, is often enough to propel management into a "we're fixing it" mode.

dc10pilot
05-18-2019, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=wjcandee;2822429]See, I think you're missing an opportunity. AMC most certainly can investigate anything it wants at any time, as can Congress. AMC/Congress doesn't need a final NTSB report before it can investigate hiring standards, training standards, and operational errors. The investigation, and what it is finding, is often enough to propel management into a "we're fixing it" mode.[/QUOT

This is a ABX interview thread not one of the many Atlas threads
stick to the topic -- as usual it has turned into a Atlas one

zerozero
05-18-2019, 12:03 PM
See, I think you're missing an opportunity. AMC most certainly can investigate anything it wants at any time, as can Congress. AMC/Congress doesn't need a final NTSB report before it can investigate hiring standards, training standards, and operational errors. The investigation, and what it is finding, is often enough to propel management into a "we're fixing it" mode.

This is in fact an ABX thread. So we should move our concerns to another one.

But just one thing, do you realize that Atlas trains the 89th crews to fly Air Force One? The military is probably closer to the training dept than you realize.

wjcandee
05-18-2019, 12:14 PM
This is in fact an ABX thread. So we should move our concerns to another one.

But just one thing, do you realize that Atlas trains the 89th crews to fly Air Force One? The military is probably closer to the training dept than you realize.

I think this discussion has run its course anyway.

FWIW, I did know that -- or at least I knew that they did so at one time -- but, you're right, I wasn't thinking of that point as we discussed this. It's potentially yet another angle for you guys. Atlas does the Doomsday Plane crew training as well.

And just to close the loop on the "litigation" discussion here, and end my participation in all of this, my own feeling is that Gleason makes a very fine presentation in court, in general and in the current litigation. He has precisely the right demeanor for an appearance before the Second Circuit. The O'Melveny guy comes off as a bit agitated and sweaty. A lot of Big Firm guys don't get a lot of stand-up appellate time, so that's not that unusual. I don't think that Gleason got his butt handed to him in oral argument, as some have suggested, and I think you can only handicap a result about half the time from the questions asked, but looking at it as objectively as possible, the creative arguments he raised probably have a low probability of success and the Court did zero in on some of the key questions. This is only Step 1 of many anyway, deciding whether the question of whether the contracts govern the issue of merging lists under these circumstances goes to arbitration. Which is why, absent a negotiated overall solution, this is going to be interminable for you guys.