Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




subcribetolife
09-05-2018, 06:47 PM
I have decided to start flight training in Phoenix AZ because of the good weather here. I want to fully dedicate myself to flight training until i get my cfi. The problem is everyplace that i go to writes one thing on their website and when I get there they cant give me straight answers on cost availability etc. Are there any honest flight schools in Phoenix that have reasonably good prices? I see a lot of people write how much atp overcharges but when i look at the hours vs costs it seems like a lot of so called mom and pop places would come out to be the same price. Any recommendations? I really dont want to blow money jumping from place to place until i find a good school. thanks!


misterpretzel
09-06-2018, 07:08 AM
Fly at Goodyear and southwest flight center are good places

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

subcribetolife
09-06-2018, 07:47 AM
Fly at Goodyear and southwest flight center are good places

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

I was just at Fly at goodyear. On the first day the instructor charged me for the time it took him to fill out my paperwork and set me up. I thought to myself well thats not really fair, but I let it slide. Then on the second day he sends me out to do the preflight checklist by myself while he talks to his buddy in the office, barely acknowledging my existence, and at the end of the lesson charges me for that time as well. I thought it was extremely unfair and let him know so he said that he doesnt want to be my instructor because thats how he teaches .There is also no sort of lesson plan there so I would have to really trust the instructor not to squeeze more out of me than is necessary but with the way this guy was acting I obviously do not trust him. The location is good for me and the prices are good. Can you recommend a specific instructor?


misterpretzel
09-06-2018, 08:46 AM
I was just at Fly at goodyear. On the first day the instructor charged me for the time it took him to fill out my paperwork and set me up. I thought to myself well thats not really fair, but I let it slide. Then on the second day he sends me out to do the preflight checklist by myself while he talks to his buddy in the office, barely acknowledging my existence, and at the end of the lesson charges me for that time as well. I thought it was extremely unfair and let him know so he said that he doesnt want to be my instructor because thats how he teaches .There is also no sort of lesson plan there so I would have to really trust the instructor not to squeeze more out of me than is necessary but with the way this guy was acting I obviously do not trust him. The location is good for me and the prices are good. Can you recommend a specific instructor?If you're looking for lesson plans you might want to consider a part 141. I didn't train there but a friend did, I'll have to ask him who his instructor was, but he really enjoyed it.

I would say that if you don't think it's fair to be charged for that time, tell them!

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

BobSacamano
09-06-2018, 09:38 PM
Call Westwind at KDVT. They are primarily 141 but I think they are starting a Part 61 operation as well. Could end up being a best-of-both-worlds situation (resources and professionalism of a big school but without having to deal with the 141 stuff).

PT6 Flyer
09-07-2018, 07:57 AM
I second the idea of Westwind.

PerfInit
09-07-2018, 10:00 AM
Aside from the WW flight school recommendation, consider that DVT is one of the busiest G/A airports in the country. You must factor in the traffic volume and the hobbs time may be “ticking away” dollars as you wait in line for takeoff and #8 in the pattern for landing.

Regarding OP’s concerns about the bad experince at Fly Goodyear- Have you shared those with the Owner, Chief Instructor, or DPE on staff? It is unfortunate that you had a bad experince there, and that should be corrected immediately so it does not happen in the future.

joepilot
09-07-2018, 03:31 PM
The school is not that important--the instructor is the important thing. Your experience, unfortunately, is not that uncommon.

Many pilots look at the CFI job as time building until they have enough hours to fly "real" airplanes.

Try to find an "old fart" instructor, like a retired airline or military pilot who is doing the job because he likes it. You will learn more faster than you would from a new CFI that got his CFI last week.


Joe

misterpretzel
09-07-2018, 09:56 PM
You will learn more faster than you would from a new CFI that got his CFI last week.


Joe

That is completely subjective


Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

tm602
09-10-2018, 06:46 AM
That is completely subjective


Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

Actually not completely. An instructor does not know how to teach well until they have done it a while.
I know this will bruise a few egos, but a 300 hour instructor barely knows how to fly himself. I didn't like hearing that when I had 300 hrs and about 2 dual given, but now 4000 dual given later I see that it is true.

misterpretzel
09-10-2018, 07:59 AM
Actually not completely. An instructor does not know how to teach well until they have done it a while.
I know this will bruise a few egos, but a 300 hour instructor barely knows how to fly himself. I didn't like hearing that when I had 300 hrs and about 2 dual given, but now 4000 dual given later I see that it is true.Everything you said is purely subjective. If what you said were objectively true, then the FAA would set the minimums for a CFI ticket to be massively higher.

Is there a place for statistics relating instructor experience to checkride pass rates?

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

FOCrunch
09-11-2018, 06:18 PM
I know I'd like to apologize to the first couple students I had when I started out as a instructor... Just like any other cert, when you get your CFI you're qualified to use the cert, doesn't mean you have any clue what it's actually like.

I had good training, but once I started teaching myself it took a few students to figure out how to actually structure my lessons and to be efficient with my time

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

JamesNoBrakes
09-11-2018, 07:57 PM
Actually not completely. An instructor does not know how to teach well until they have done it a while.
I know this will bruise a few egos, but a 300 hour instructor barely knows how to fly himself. I didn't like hearing that when I had 300 hrs and about 2 dual given, but now 4000 dual given later I see that it is true.

Good points, the "old fart" CFIs can be just as bad, so set in certain ways that they are inflexible to the needs of the student. A good program should have good controls to ensure that the students learn and instructors can teach, but as we've heard from above, that's not always the case. WW always had a good reputation for the teaching side of things when I was in the state.

I would absolutely take a stand against an instructor charging you for time where they aren't doing anything. A caveat would be if I was on the ramp with the student, doing MY checks, supervising and making sure they are safe on the ramp, that is absolutely chargeable time. But if I'm sending them out to preflight and am not with them, not chargeable, and it's also my job to make sure they are learning something and my time is quality spent when I am with them. It's also being professional and not doing ridiculous things like charging someone for the time having a hamburger at the restaurant, etc. If you are seeing these signs of unprofessional-ism, you should run away. This is going to be indicative of their attitude and behavior in general. What other corners are they cutting and what else are they willing to sacrifice at your cost? Not worth it.

JamesNoBrakes
09-11-2018, 08:02 PM
I know I'd like to apologize to the first couple students I had when I started out as a instructor... Just like any other cert, when you get your CFI you're qualified to use the cert, doesn't mean you have any clue what it's actually like.

I had good training, but once I started teaching myself it took a few students to figure out how to actually structure my lessons and to be efficient with my time

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

It's totally dependent on the quality of your own training IME. If your training taught you to understand the standards well, to understand the maneuvers well, to structure well and deal with varying performance, it's not such a great big leap. It can be and I definitely hear you there, but IME, it doesn't have to be. There's a lot of "telling" in CFI training and often not a whole lot of "teaching". There's a lot of "if we do this enough times you'll eventually figure it out" vs. "this is how and why this works". You can get to that higher place during your training and start out teaching it as a CFI just fine, but you can also never reach that higher understanding until much later in life. All depends on the quality of training.

I remember when I was learning how to land at one point I was not landing straight and my IP tried to make a point about how drivers are able to tell straight-ahead and drive their cars in the middle of the lanes (like the millennium falcon or something). Then I started paying close attention to people driving cars and realized my IP was wrong. People in cars do not drive their cars centered in the lanes, they tend to all drive with their body in the center of the lanes, which offsets the car to the right.

metalfeather
09-11-2018, 08:35 PM
Angel aviation in Glendale does it right. They have a few career instructors, multiple Cessnas and a seneca. It's not fast track and it's not a ripoff. You'll be a fully capable private pilot with solid skills and sound understanding.

If you want quality training, this is the place. If you want fast self-study training go to KDVT or KIWA.

tm602
09-14-2018, 03:17 PM
I would absolutely take a stand against an instructor charging you for time where they aren't doing anything. A caveat would be if I was on the ramp with the student, doing MY checks, supervising and making sure they are safe on the ramp, that is absolutely chargeable time. But if I'm sending them out to preflight and am not with them, not chargeable, and it's also my job to make sure they are learning something and my time is quality spent when I am with them.

That's always been my policy, but I learned to watch them these days. Texting or phone calls on the ramp during preflight is wasting MY time and I do actually bill them for that time. Never had an argument over it, they are told on the first lesson the "rules of engagement" in flight training.
Also, sometimes we do a lunch on a split lesson day (2 lessons per day with a lunch and gas stop). If the lunch is quick and they don't waste time on it, I'll pick up the tab for them sometimes.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1