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View Full Version : New FO


BJgj4700
09-11-2018, 06:36 PM
I'm soon to be a new FO with Envoy. Anyone have any info pertaining to the questions below?

1. Where are new FOs getting at day 1 of training as far as base/equipment?
2. How long will I be on reserve?
3. I'd hope for a DFW or ORD base assignment. I could commute non-stop from COU to either base. Anybody doing that?
4. What is it like being a new FO fresh out of IOE and on reserve as a commuter?

I know some of these questions aren't easily answered but I would appreciate your insights/experiences from the perspective of a new guy.

Thanks.


NoValueAviator
09-11-2018, 06:41 PM
1. Where are new FOs getting at day 1 of training as far as base/equipment?

Lately, your choice of 175 DFW/ORD.

2. How long will I be on reserve?

1 month to 12+ months depending on fleet/base.

3. I'd hope for a DFW or ORD base assignment. I could commute non-stop from COU to either base. Anybody doing that?

idk

4. What is it like being a new FO fresh out of IOE and on reserve as a commuter?

Not super fun. Easier in NY actually because free hotels, but still not super fun. A lot of people lose days off on both ends of their reserve day blocks to commuting because of the way it often works (4AM show day one, 11:59PM release on day 5 etc.) But this depends on the flight schedule from home to your base and other variables of course.

Iflythe72
09-11-2018, 06:44 PM
With commuting you’ll be home about 7 to 8 days a month.


ENH017
09-11-2018, 07:00 PM
Dont 👏 commute 👏 on 👏 reserve 👏

pitchattitude
09-11-2018, 07:33 PM
I'm soon to be a new FO with Envoy. Anyone have any info pertaining to the questions below?

1. Where are new FOs getting at day 1 of training as far as base/equipment?
2. How long will I be on reserve?
3. I'd hope for a DFW or ORD base assignment. I could commute non-stop from COU to either base. Anybody doing that?
4. What is it like being a new FO fresh out of IOE and on reserve as a commuter?

I know some of these questions aren't easily answered but I would appreciate your insights/experiences from the perspective of a new guy.

Thanks.
ORD is likely to stay more junior, but you also have to consider number of flights per day and the length of the flight.

NoValueAviator
09-12-2018, 05:57 AM
Dont �� commute �� on �� reserve ��

>live in base in NYC

Sage advice, but where do I get the $750k for the 300 sqft studio w/in 3 hrs of JFK?

Or the 4k/mo, either one.

havick206
09-12-2018, 06:08 AM
>live in base in NYC

Sage advice, but where do I get the $750k for the 300 sqft studio w/in 3 hrs of JFK?

Or the 4k/mo, either one.

You do realize there’s other places other than Manhattan to live in within 3 hrs.

PA, CT, NJ just to name a few neighboring states a short drive away

uavking
09-12-2018, 09:18 AM
3. I'd hope for a DFW or ORD base assignment. I could commute non-stop from COU to either base. Anybody doing that?


We have at least one commuter from COU (CRJ) who has been doing it for two years without issue. It's a CRJ overnight as well.

BJgj4700
09-12-2018, 11:04 AM
We have at least one commuter from COU (CRJ) who has been doing it for two years without issue. It's a CRJ overnight as well.

I would really like to talk to this person to see what it’s like. Does this person have an email address?

BJgj4700
09-12-2018, 11:05 AM
I’d love to be able to talk to the individual who commutes from COU. That’s exactly what I intend to do. Thanks.

go skers
09-12-2018, 11:25 AM
I’d love to be able to talk to the individual who commutes from COU. That’s exactly what I intend to do. Thanks.

With 4 flights a day to ORD between UA and AA and flights to DFW to get to and from training I don't think it would be awful. Getting LGA to start would be horrible but temporary. The only thing you have to worry about is getting runway limited on both the 200's and 145's and the other jumpseat problems that come with CG and MLW sometimes. The 700 doesn't have those issues besides keeping it off the grass from time to time in COU.

BJgj4700
09-12-2018, 12:10 PM
What’s the horrors starting at LGA as reserve or line?

SilentLurker
09-13-2018, 02:07 AM
What’s the horrors starting at LGA as reserve or line?



Two leg commutes is the horror. May not be as stressful with positive space for 3 months after IOE, but still hell on the job for a two leg commute.

Is LGA do-able from COU? Yes. Is it advisable, especially after 3 months positive space runs out and dealing with current Envoy Rsv rules? You won’t understand until you deal with it. You can always put in a base transfer request to ORD or DFW on the E145.

From what I see on the CRJ RSV list you may not get to fly much being on bottom of the RSV list. It’s currently loaded. Your chances of getting the COU overnights on Rsv or as a line holder on a dying fleet gauntlet will be slim to none, and it will not make a difference in your QOL being on the CRJ.

Take the 145 or 175 would be my recommendation. You will get to fly and build some experience/ SIC time needed for upgrade.

NoValueAviator
09-13-2018, 05:15 AM
You will not get to fly on the 145. 175 is really the only hope a decent QOL and getting hours first year unless you stay in NY or go to Miami which are comparatively jr bases on the FO side. If you wanna make the heroes journey LGA-ORD-DFW expect to spend many months on reserve.

Pedro4President
09-13-2018, 05:49 AM
Two leg commutes is the horror. May not be as stressful with positive space for 3 months after IOE, but still hell on the job for a two leg commute.

Is LGA do-able from COU? Yes. Is it advisable, especially after 3 months positive space runs out and dealing with current Envoy Rsv rules? You won’t understand until you deal with it. You can always put in a base transfer request to ORD or DFW on the E145.

From what I see on the CRJ RSV list you may not get to fly much being on bottom of the RSV list. It’s currently loaded. Your chances of getting the COU overnights on Rsv or as a line holder on a dying fleet gauntlet will be slim to none, and it will not make a difference in your QOL being on the CRJ.

Take the 145 or 175 would be my recommendation. You will get to fly and build some experience/ SIC time needed for upgrade.

Depending on where you are a two leg commute to LGA for a line COULD be "better" than a one leg commute to reserve. It's not a guarantee but it's definitely something to look at.

Let's define "better" - more time at home and more flight time. Getting to work will be easier because you are a D2T. However getting home will be fairly difficult.

I'm just passing along information my FOs have told me. I don't commute.

moon
09-13-2018, 06:17 AM
Just drive to STL or MCI if you need to get to LGA. What are those like 2 hour drives? Way better than a 2 leg commute.

Iflythe72
09-13-2018, 06:19 AM
I was 2 leg commuting to LGA. Very stressful. It’s difficult with all the deadheads between ORD and LGA. Along with all the AA pilots that come at the last second and take the jumpseat. Sometimes I’d even 3 leg commute it just to get there a few times even with the A12s. And it’s not like I was coming from some tiny airport to get to work either. The A12s do not give you a confirmed seat all the time. Most of the time you’re just put you as a revenue standby. The lowest priority of too. So there would be times I wouldn’t get on with an A12. I’ve even had a confirmed seat taken from me due to so many deadheads and passengers. I’d say in LGA you’ll be on reserve at least 5 to 6 months. Hard to predict the future. Just going off my recent experience.

SilentLurker
09-13-2018, 06:42 AM
Depending on where you are a two leg commute to LGA for a line COULD be "better" than a one leg commute to reserve. It's not a guarantee but it's definitely something to look at.



Let's define "better" - more time at home and more flight time. Getting to work will be easier because you are a D2T. However getting home will be fairly difficult.



I'm just passing along information my FOs have told me. I don't commute.



Good point with the D2T and Rsv QOL vs “Better” QOL as a Line Holder (for Flight time to upgrade, known trip schedules, better options to plan life & family time around, ability to trip trade, P2P trade, more OT options, more Per Diem/overnights, less expenses on crash pads, also paid block guarantee if Flight CX or a reassignment whichever is greater).

Toss up for a NH what is offered day 1 & where he/she ends up.

Here at Envoy your QOL is not at all dependent on your seniority, overall what you will fly & where you will be based. The “gotcha-gotcha-wink-wink” is they will walk into day 1 indoc not knowing where they stand until they show up for class to await their fate and QOL for the next 1+yr.

No wonder DEC’s eligible pilots are going elsewhere vs coming here. With so many good options in the industry offering “better” now, I doubt we could hire 30+ per class (60+ per month) again if we tried under current offerings.

SilentLurker
09-13-2018, 06:54 AM
Speaking of going elsewhere....

You guys hear yet how ExpressJet lost 75+ CA’s to Kalita in *3 or 4 days*. Impressive. “Better” options for DECs. Another example of knowing or having a sure thing before indoc vs an unknown base and unknown-equipment until day 1 indoc here.

Envoy should be more transparent to NHs/DECs so they know where they will fall IMHO. These are issues I’ve heard and why people come here complaining and sounding like ungrateful irresponsible millennials that did not do their research on APC.

This place is not half terrible,yet still it has so much potential to be better. I came in at the right time, with the right equipment/base for better QOL than many others.

For those who will say shut up, they had it worse. My response will be: Shouldn’t you try to make this place better for the next guy after you? Or would you rather get yours and pull the ladder up because it’s a “regional” and every NH must get screwed and pay their dues to the company like you did?

havick206
09-13-2018, 07:52 AM
Yeah the espressjet DEC pool has come to an end (mostly) for Envoy given the Kalitta preferential hiring for that group of pilots.

Skip0927
09-13-2018, 08:01 AM
Whats the number for Kalitta?

888-TruckMasters?

NoValueAviator
09-13-2018, 08:03 AM
Most of the CA's I've flown with have been DECs, all have been ExpressJet or people who left flying and came back with only one exception from Mesa. It will be interesting to see how the company reacts to this, if it does.

D2T is a standby priority code that puts you above D2 (normal commuter) because you are a "through" passenger, on the list for the flight as a connection rather than the first/only leg.

moon
09-13-2018, 08:05 AM
Whats the number for Kalitta?

888-TruckMasters?

1800 - paidmore

Pedro4President
09-13-2018, 03:18 PM
Speaking of going elsewhere....


This place is not half terrible,yet still it has so much potential to be better. I came in at the right time, with the right equipment/base for better QOL than many others.

For those who will say shut up, they had it worse. My response will be: Shouldn’t you try to make this place better for the next guy after you? Or would you rather get yours and pull the ladder up because it’s a “regional” and every NH must get screwed and pay their dues to the company like you did?

No one is pulling up the ladder. We did make it better for the next guy. Reserve is a fraction of what it use to be. Pay is 3x what it use to be. Unlimited commuter hotels for three months for LGA and A passes. Seriously what are you talking about? New guys get to upgrade without a seat lock or CA pay from day one.

So yeah I laugh when I hear the new guys complain because they didn't get the 175 or reserve was six or eight months in DFW. And to be honest I'm glad you had a good experience.

SilentLurker
09-13-2018, 05:20 PM
No one is pulling up the ladder. We did make it better for the next guy. Reserve is a fraction of what it use to be. Pay is 3x what it use to be. Unlimited commuter hotels for three months for LGA and A passes. Seriously what are you talking about? New guys get to upgrade without a seat lock or CA pay from day one.



So yeah I laugh when I hear the new guys complain because they didn't get the 175 or reserve was six or eight months in DFW. And to be honest I'm glad you had a good experience.


I agree with much of what you just said with exceptions

Market forces were the primary driver and justification for the changes listed above with the help of hardworking men & women industry-wide of course. Both company and union members (both old and new members) have benefited.

Envoy could NOT produce the outcome it has for AAG if those old Rsv rules & old pay rates you mentioned existed today. The business is better managed than it use to be, the economy is totally different from it use to be. It was not just Aviation industry’s suffering back then! One way or another things would have changed! Either flow or pay or both.... We got a little bit of both.

Market leverage. Without it you would have been right. Things “could” have been better back then. Luck, timing, market forces. Hell you will flow to mainline before we know it and take your place amongst the Aviation God.

It’s ok to ask for more and expect more, than what it use to be. I’m sure in yester year it was said how lucky you guys were and how it use to be more “Ratchet” at some early point in your career.

My point is it’s ok to expect more, dream bigger, fight, and keep fighting expecting more better. NH’s are not satisfied, that’s great for our industry! It’s not complaining, hell many more folks should have been complaining years ago, but market forces did not allow it. Now they do!

“It’s a new day in America.” ~ Pres. Ronald Regan

NoValueAviator
09-14-2018, 04:49 AM
Talking about the dump this place used to be in the past like it means everything is fine is silly. Past Envoy/Eagle is not competing with Envoy for new hires and would not survive in this market.

New hires keep lining up around the schoolhouse, based somewhat on false promises of five year flows and gauranteed 175 DFW high QOL slots. If recruitiment is the only voice on how life as an Envoy FO is, people will keep coming and nothing will ever change, or maybe the company eventually decides the situation is too rich and comes up with a concessionary contract.

EnyFlyr
09-14-2018, 06:03 AM
New hires keep lining up around the schoolhouse, based somewhat on false promises of five year flows

According to the latest ALPA spreadsheet a 8/27/18 new hire will flow in April of 2027..

Voski
09-14-2018, 07:32 AM
According to the latest ALPA spreadsheet a 8/27/18 new hire will flow in April of 2027..

You’re not going to apply to UAL/DAL/SWA/FDX/UPS?

EnyFlyr
09-14-2018, 12:28 PM
You’re not going to apply to UAL/DAL/SWA/FDX/UPS?

I am putting this out there for any guys planning to come to envoy for the “flow”

DanRoman
09-14-2018, 04:17 PM
I am putting this out there for any guys planning to come to envoy for the “flow”

No quotation marks necessary.

EnyFlyr
09-14-2018, 06:18 PM
No quotation marks necessary.

Not sure how good is a 9 year flow for a new hire

Voski
09-14-2018, 06:44 PM
Not sure how good is a 9 year flow for a new hire

Guaranteed attrition of the most senior people in the company means continuous seniority gains for junior pilots.

DanRoman
09-14-2018, 10:42 PM
Not sure how good is a 9 year flow for a new hire

Not sure how good is your English. 9 years or 9 weeks it’s still a flow and no quotation marks are necessary.

dera
09-15-2018, 12:52 AM
Talking about the dump this place used to be in the past like it means everything is fine is silly. Past Envoy/Eagle is not competing with Envoy for new hires and would not survive in this market.

New hires keep lining up around the schoolhouse, based somewhat on false promises of five year flows and gauranteed 175 DFW high QOL slots. If recruitiment is the only voice on how life as an Envoy FO is, people will keep coming and nothing will ever change, or maybe the company eventually decides the situation is too rich and comes up with a concessionary contract.

I don't know who promises five year flows. Recruiters said 7-8 years should be realistic.
They were very honest and upfront about it, they also said don't rely on flow and always keep your applications up to date everywhere, and go to the major that calls you first, only keep the flow as a backup.

Pedro4President
09-15-2018, 02:36 AM
Not sure how good is a 9 year flow for a new hire

Attrition....

Pedro4President
09-15-2018, 02:40 AM
I don't know who promises five year flows. Recruiters said 7-8 years should be realistic.
They were very honest and upfront about it, they also said don't rely on flow and always keep your applications up to date everywhere, and go to the major that calls you first, only keep the flow as a backup.

Well that may be true but then someone in management put out a graphic for a 5.5 year flow. The information was targeted to DEC and on the recruitment website.

dera
09-15-2018, 08:57 AM
Well that may be true but then someone in management put out a graphic for a 5.5 year flow. The information was targeted to DEC and on the recruitment website.

Yeah, the guys at our interview were great about it, they didn't sugar coat it at all.
The "lead" recruiter had one day left before he goes to American, he was a 2006ish hire.
4 people, 3 got the offer. They said they are pretty selective with the FO recruiting at the moment.

HardLemonade
09-15-2018, 09:33 AM
Well that may be true but then someone in management put out a graphic for a 5.5 year flow. The information was targeted to DEC and on the recruitment website.

2 years ago when they talked about a 2.5 year upgrade didn't everyone snicker? Now we've blown that number out of the water. DEC wasn't even in our vocabulary back then. All I'm saying..is that Ric and Company have a model they use to get these numbers. They don't pull them out of thin air.

Pedro4President
09-15-2018, 10:27 AM
2 years ago when they talked about a 2.5 year upgrade didn't everyone snicker? Now we've blown that number out of the water. DEC wasn't even in our vocabulary back then. All I'm saying..is that Ric and Company have a model they use to get these numbers. They don't pull them out of thin air.

900+ pilots hired in 2017. Beginning of 2017 hires could see 5ish year flow but not the back end of 2017- early 2018. (Unless they adjust the flow.)

Their model is based on "historic attrition rates" - I wonder if Ric and company are going to threaten another comm air 2 in order to achieve that attrition rate.

pitchattitude
09-15-2018, 02:41 PM
Not sure who updates it, but the Envoy info page on APC says 6.5 years for flow.

The Union seniority list show 27 Aug hire date at 8.59 years.

dera
09-15-2018, 03:17 PM
Not sure who updates it, but the Envoy info page on APC says 6.5 years for flow.

The Union seniority list show 27 Aug hire date at 8.59 years.

The union list does not consider lifers and outside attrition?

DanRoman
09-15-2018, 03:40 PM
The union list does not consider lifers and outside attrition?

It skips the lifers. It doesn’t account for outside attrition because that’s not a known quantity.

dera
09-15-2018, 03:41 PM
It skips the lifers. It doesn’t account for outside attrition because that’s not a known quantity.

So it is pretty much the worst case scenario.

bh539
09-15-2018, 03:51 PM
It skips the lifers. It doesn’t account for outside attrition because that’s not a known quantity.

Why not just use an average? Not accounting for it at all is probably the most inaccurate way.

DanRoman
09-15-2018, 03:55 PM
Why not just use an average? Not accounting for it at all is probably the most inaccurate way.

Because then people would complain that it’s not accurate and too optimistic.

DanRoman
09-15-2018, 03:57 PM
So it is pretty much the worst case scenario.

Essentially. That’s why most people’s flow date moves closer slowly as actual attrition is accounted for.

pitchattitude
09-15-2018, 04:03 PM
As I understand, the Union flow calculation includes December classes which has never happened. There is SUPPOSED to be one this year. But by including the December classes, that has helped to account for attrition.

CaptJackSparrow
09-15-2018, 05:01 PM
As I understand, the Union flow calculation includes December classes which has never happened. There is SUPPOSED to be one this year. But by including the December classes, that has helped to account for attrition.

Correct. Plus the fact that historically the flow has taken longer than advertised. Look at last year for example, there were 3 months that AA stopped hiring. Delta is currently in a hiring freeze as well (or was for the summer months at least). And if AA hires less than 58 for the month then we send less. And it only gets slower after the protected pilots flow. I would view the union’s projection as a best case scenario. I’m sure a lot of new guys on here who are overly hopeful will disagree but history backs up my claim.

in2deep
09-15-2018, 06:40 PM
The union list does not consider lifers and outside attrition?

The union list is purely attrition due to flow

bigtime209
09-15-2018, 07:25 PM
Way too many variables to account for in projecting flow for anyone hired recently. No way to put out any kind of semi accurate projection for more than 1-3ish years out. In my personal and humble opinion, whether you're talking 6 years from now or 9 years from now, this industry will look COMPLETELY different in that time frame. There's no way that AA's regional feed and flow picture will look like it does currently. I have no idea what it will look like, but I can almost guarantee it will not look like it currently does. I'd be semi surprised if Envoy will exist in any shape or form that represents its current state in 9 years. We are just beginning to see the start of a very interesting road up ahead of us that will no doubt have some very surprising twists and turns. Anyone that's been in this game for more than a year or two knows that volatility is the name of the game.

402FreightDog
09-15-2018, 08:41 PM
Way too many variables to account for in projecting flow for anyone hired recently. No way to put out any kind of semi accurate projection for more than 1-3ish years out. In my personal and humble opinion, whether you're talking 6 years from now or 9 years from now, this industry will look COMPLETELY different in that time frame. There's no way that AA's regional feed and flow picture will look like it does currently. I have no idea what it will look like, but I can almost guarantee it will not look like it currently does. I'd be semi surprised if Envoy will exist in any shape or form that represents its current state in 9 years. We are just beginning to see the start of a very interesting road up ahead of us that will no doubt have some very surprising twists and turns. Anyone that's been in this game for more than a year or two knows that volatility is the name of the game.
How many of the age 60 plus “lifers” would take early retirement if they were to eliminate Envoy and the regional feed and staple it to the bottom of AA.

You’re always going to have some people unhappy about the way things could turn out.

bigtime209
09-15-2018, 09:57 PM
How many of the age 60 plus “lifers” would take early retirement if they were to eliminate Envoy and the regional feed and staple it to the bottom of AA.

You’re always going to have some people unhappy about the way things could turn out.

You must be new. You're missing the point. First point, there are only roughly 200 something lifers left on the seniority list. You're assuming that the only alternative to the current course is shutting down Envoy and stapling all of the pilots to the AA seniority list. The point is, there's no way of knowing what will happen in the coming years. There's no way of knowing if the pipe dream of a staple to the AA list (a pipe dream that has been out there for many, many years) will happen, whether or not Envoy and Piedmont will merge, whether or not all 3 wholly owned regionals will merge, whether or not there will be a major consolidation of all regionals will occur, leaving just a handful of regionals left across the entire market, whether or not there will be a consolation of the regionals into just one remaining regional, whether the regionals dry up altogether with just the majors left standing, who the hell knows??? The point is, you can't reasonably make a projection for flow, much less the the entire industry, 6-9 years from now by taking into account the current market trend. As I said before, anyone who's been in the game for longer than a year or two knows that the industry usually changes drastically within a 5 year span. Go back 30 years from now. Look at every 5 year segment. Have those 5 years throughout that time been anything alike? Anyone hired in the last year or so that thinks they're just gonna ride out the wave and flow down the line a few years from now is in for a rude awakening.

402FreightDog
09-16-2018, 02:20 AM
You must be new. You're missing the point. First point, there are only roughly 200 something lifers left on the seniority list. You're assuming that the only alternative to the current course is shutting down Envoy and stapling all of the pilots to the AA seniority list. The point is, there's no way of knowing what will happen in the coming years. There's no way of knowing if the pipe dream of a staple to the AA list (a pipe dream that has been out there for many, many years) will happen, whether or not Envoy and Piedmont will merge, whether or not all 3 wholly owned regionals will merge, whether or not there will be a major consolidation of all regionals will occur, leaving just a handful of regionals left across the entire market, whether or not there will be a consolation of the regionals into just one remaining regional, whether the regionals dry up altogether with just the majors left standing, who the hell knows??? The point is, you can't reasonably make a projection for flow, much less the the entire industry, 6-9 years from now by taking into account the current market trend. As I said before, anyone who's been in the game for longer than a year or two knows that the industry usually changes drastically within a 5 year span. Go back 30 years from now. Look at every 5 year segment. Have those 5 years throughout that time been anything alike? Anyone hired in the last year or so that thinks they're just gonna ride out the wave and flow down the line a few years from now is in for a rude awakening.
Definitely not new and I don’t miss the point. Just throwing a scenario out there that has been hypothesized and saying that what some would think is great others would be others worst case and there are at least several that are considerably younger than that had planned to make Envoy their long term home that hadn’t planned to go anywhere else. Though, I am not one of them.

TransWorld
09-16-2018, 12:36 PM
900+ pilots hired in 2017.

Do you mean on track for 2018? If so, I agree.

AA total hires for 2017 were 645.

Pedro4President
09-16-2018, 01:22 PM
Do you mean on track for 2018? If so, I agree.

AA total hires for 2017 were 645.

Pretty sure everyone realized I was talking about Envoy new hires.

We may flow 200 per year and we hired 900. The company can't claim that 700+ 2017 pilots will leave outside the flow before 5 years.